Road Safety: Eye Tests
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Viscount Simon (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my interests, which are in the register, and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency’s driving licence application form makes clear the importance of meeting the required eyesight standards. The Department for Transport also makes clear the eyesight standards for driving in its leaflets and forms, as well as on the GOV.UK website. The department supports the NHS recommendation that adults should have their eyes tested every two years. This advice was promoted through a communication campaign in 2013, supported by the BMA, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and Brake.
Viscount Simon
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Given that in 2014 the driver eyesight survey estimated that crashes resulting from poor driver vision caused 2,900 casualties in the UK per year and that three-quarters of the adult population require either contact lenses or glasses, will the Government do more to alert drivers of the dangers of not getting their eyesight tested regularly, and can consideration be given to using motorway electronic signs to display this message? Road safety week starts on 21 November. Would that not be an excellent time to start running a trial to establish whether these actions have a beneficial effect?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I congratulate the noble Viscount. He has been a vociferous and devoted campaigner for road safety, and I know that he recently received an award from the Police Federation recognising his achievements and service in this area. Highways England uses electronic variable message signs but, as the noble Viscount is aware, these are intended primarily to advise drivers of immediate safety issues and journey information. With regard to road safety week, we are intending, with Highways England, to use other forms of media, such as social media, to promote the importance of getting your eyes tested.
Lord Brougham and Vaux (Con)
Is my noble friend aware that in Switzerland, where my cousin lives, if you are over 70 you have to retake your test every two years? If you are over 80, you have to retake it every year, including an eye test and a full medical. Would he not consider something along those lines?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
It is always useful to hear personal anecdotes. I actually had my eyes tested on Saturday, and I passed. Turning to my noble friend’s question, the UK has one of the greatest road safety records. People aged 70 are required to sit the test to renew their licence for another three years, and we provide other services through DVLA. Pilots are also being taken up, including with GP practices in Birmingham, to raise awareness of eye tests, particularly for those over 70.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I want to ask about people who have perfectly good eyesight but who choose to use it to look at their mobile phones while driving. In 2014, mobile phone use was a contributory factor in 492 accidents, 21 of which were fatal, and an RAC survey has shown a steep increase in mobile phone use at the wheel since then. Do the Government intend to increase the penalties for these drivers, and to provide funding to deal with the 27% drop in dedicated roads policing officers since 2010?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As the noble Baroness may be aware, the Government have already taken action in this respect and increased the penalties for mobile phone use while driving. I am sure the whole House will be aware of the news today of the sentencing of the driver who caused the tragic death of a mother and three young children. Our thoughts are of course with the family. The noble Baroness raises an important point and the Government continue to look at how we can work across the board with all industry players to underline the importance of educating people. Yes, mobile phones have a role to play, but not while people are driving.
Lord Winston (Lab)
My Lords, it is good to hear that the Minister has had his eyes tested, but does he accept that one of the problems—which may also be true in his case—is that in the routine eye test, changes in conditions between darkness and light are not tested properly? One of the real issues with older people is that, particularly as cataracts form, their visual acuity may be unchanged but they are unable to accommodate in dark situations, which is when accidents are most likely to happen. Can the eye test perhaps include that in future?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord speaks from great experience in this regard and I will certainly take his suggestion back. I found that my recent eye test was thorough in every respect, but the department and I will reflect on his point about those who are older.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
Following the supplementary question asked by my noble friend Lord Simon, how many fatal road accidents per year do the Government accept can be attributed in part or wholly to the eyesight of one or more of the parties involved in the accident being below the standard required to pass the driving test?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I shall write to the noble Lord on the specifics, but as I have said, our safety standards have led to one of the lowest comparative figures across Europe for such accidents, and the Government are looking at how they can work with the medical profession. The pilot in Birmingham that I referred to consists of 113 surgeries where people can talk to their general practitioners about the need for an eye test and nominate themselves to get their eyes tested. Indeed, GPs are also looking at how their duty of care can be extended where someone refuses or is unable to report their eyesight deficiency to the DVLA.
The Countess of Mar (CB)
My Lords, the Minister implied in an earlier response that from the age of 70 drivers are expected to take a retest and then do so subsequently every three years. In fact, it is not a driving test as we understand it: it is just a question of filling in forms saying that you do not have certain diseases. Can he please correct his statement?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Countess is quite correct. I was talking about people having their driving licence renewed after reaching the age of 70, and as I am sure noble Lords know, it is on a three-year basis and the noble Countess is right to point out that it is a specific declaration made by drivers themselves. But as I have intimated, we are looking into how we can work with health practitioners, particularly GPs, to make self-nomination work more effectively.
Airport Capacity
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport in another place. The Statement is as follows:
“Last year, the independent Airports Commission delivered its final report under the chairmanship of Sir Howard Davies. I would like to pay tribute to the quality and professionalism of its work and express my thanks to all members of the commission. The report concluded that we needed more capacity in the south-east and put forward three viable options for expansion. It unanimously agreed that the proposed north-west runway at Heathrow presented the strongest case.
In December, my predecessor came to the House to announce that the Government accepted the commission’s assessment of the need for additional capacity, but made it clear that further work was required before making a decision on the location of a new runway. That work is now complete.
Mr Speaker, this is a momentous step for our country. The decisions taken earlier today, which I shall outline in a moment, are long overdue but will serve our country for generations to come. I know that some Members of the House have strong convictions on this issue, and everyone in the House will fully understand the significance of this announcement: the significance for jobs, for an economy which works for everyone, for passengers, for the global importance of our country, for the environment and for people affected by expansion—and also to send a clear message that Britain is open for business.
It is not an easy issue or a simple process. I make no apologies that we have taken time to get it right, but today shows that this is a Government unafraid to take difficult decisions and get on with the job.
Before I outline the decision the Government have reached, I want to explain how today’s announcement fits within the planning process, and the opportunities that Members of this House will have to contribute. In the new year, we will bring forward a draft national policy statement, which will include details of the proposed scheme. As required under legislation, this will be subject to a full and extensive public consultation, followed by a period of parliamentary scrutiny. Only once members have voted on the final national policy statement, and it has been designated, will the airport be able to bring forward a detailed planning application.
Strong connections with global partners and the ability to trade with new and growing markets are vital to securing Britain’s place in the world. The United Kingdom currently has the third-largest aviation network in the world, behind only the United States and China and contributing over £22 billion to UK GDP. We have the second-largest aerospace manufacturing sector, which generates annual exports of £26 billion. Our aviation industry supports almost 1 million jobs and invests £1.7 billion every year in research and development. Last year, UK airports handled more than 250 million passengers—up 5.5% on 2014—and 2.3 million tonnes of freight. Heathrow is the busiest two-runway airport in the world and Gatwick the busiest single-runway airport. Indeed, the London system will be almost entirely full by 2030, with the exception of a small amount of capacity at Luton—and that will be taken up soon afterwards.
If we do nothing, the cost to our nation will be significant, amounting to more than £20 billion over 60 years through delays, fewer flights and passengers having to fly from airports elsewhere. In addition, the wider impacts on our economy will be in the region of £30 billion to £45 billion. That is why the decision we have reached today is so important to the future of our country—not just to tackle the immediate shortage of airport capacity but to set our country on a course to even greater prosperity for future generations.
I have spent a considerable amount of time this summer visiting the different schemes, talking to their promoters and assessing their strengths and weaknesses. I have been genuinely impressed by the quality of choice available to us and the detailed work that has been put into the three plans. Any one of them would bring benefits to our country. At the end of its work, the Airports Commission made a clear and unanimous recommendation to the Government: that we should accept the proposal to build a new north-west runway at Heathrow, subject to a package of measures to make expansion more acceptable to the airport’s local community.
Since the publication of that recommendation, my department has studied in detail both its report and new and supplementary information that has emerged about the different options since then. The commission’s report and that subsequent information formed the basis of the discussion that took place this morning at the Cabinet sub-committee.
As a result of that discussion, the Government have decided to accept the recommendation. We believe that the expansion of Heathrow Airport and the north-west runway scheme, in combination with a significant package of supporting measures on a scale recommended by the Airports Commission, offers the greatest level of benefit to passengers and business, and will help us deliver the broadest possible benefit to the whole of the United Kingdom. It will deliver the greatest economic and strategic benefits to our economy; it will strengthen connectivity for passengers right across the United Kingdom; it will offer a major boost to freight operators; it can be delivered within carbon and air-quality limits; and, crucially, it will come with world-leading measures to limit the impacts on those living nearby.
In addition to the benefits identified by the commission, this scheme will deliver the connectivity and hub capacity the United Kingdom needs to compete with fast-growing European and Middle Eastern hubs. The airport’s location means that it is more accessible to business and the rest of the UK by both road and rail. Access to Heathrow is more resilient and it is better placed as the national freight hub. Ultimately, it brings the largest benefits to passengers and the wider economy of up to £61 billion over 60 years. But we are not alone in this view: UK airlines and business are also clear that Heathrow is the right place to expand.
Before continuing, I pay tribute to the promoters of the other two schemes considered by the sub-committee. Both presented well-developed and compelling cases for new capacity. In particular, I would like to place on record that Gatwick, despite not being selected today, remains a key part of our national transport picture and will continue to do so in future.
I want to be very clear: expansion will not be at any cost to local people, to passengers or to industry. We must make three assurances: first, to make Heathrow a better neighbour. We must tackle air quality and noise, and meet our obligations on carbon both during and after construction.
Air quality is a significant national health issue which the Government take very seriously. That is why we undertook further work which confirms the commission’s original conclusion on air quality that a new runway at Heathrow is deliverable within air-quality limits, and we remain committed to ensuring this remains the case. The airport has already committed to industry-leading measures to mitigate air quality impacts. Furthermore, the Government will grant development consent only if we remain satisfied that a new runway will not impact on the UK’s compliance with its air-quality obligations.
The broader issue of air quality is one that the Government take very seriously indeed, and the updated evidence base shows very clearly that the biggest challenge we face is not the expansion of an airport but the level of emissions in built-up urban areas more generally. This is the very reason for our national air-quality plan.
I can also tell the House that, as part of my ongoing work on air quality, my department, along with Defra and the Treasury, has embarked on a joint project to identify further ways in which we can tackle this issue. By the time a new runway opens in the next decade, we intend to have made very substantial progress in tackling these air-quality challenges across our nation as a whole.
On the issue of noise, I say that no airport can be silent. Technology, though, is making aircraft quieter. The newer-generation aircraft coming into service have a noise footprint typically 50% smaller on departure than the ones they are replacing, and at least 30% smaller on arrival.
Although planes are getting quieter, they still have an impact. That is why we will expect a six-and-a-half-hour ban on scheduled flights each night to be a requirement for development consent. This would also see the airport held to clear and legally enforceable noise performance targets. So, even with expansion, fewer people will be affected by aircraft noise than today. We also recognise the importance of providing local residents with a clear, predictable timetable of respite from aircraft noise. This is something that local communities value today and we will ensure that it continues once a new runway is built.
I recognise that this decision will have a big impact on people who live close to Heathrow, which is why we have insisted on a world-class package of supporting measures. Those communities affected by the decision will be supported by up to £2.6 billion towards compensation, noise insulation for homes and schools, improvements to public facilities and other measures. For those people whose homes need to be bought to make way for the new runway, Heathrow will pay 25% above the full market value of their home and cover all costs, including stamp duty, moving and legal fees—an offer significantly above the statutory requirement. In addition, I can announce the creation of a community compensation fund and that local authorities will benefit from our policy of local retention of business rates.
The second assurance I want to give is on costs for airlines and passengers. A new runway would bring in new capacity to meet demand and allow greater levels of competition, lowering fares relative to no expansion even after taking into account the costs of construction. This is an investment in our country’s future that will deliver major economic and strategic benefits to the UK, but it must be delivered without hitting passengers in the pocket. The Airports Commission was clear that this is achievable, as is the Civil Aviation Authority—not expansion at any cost but the right scheme at the right price. I expect the industry to work together to drive down costs for the benefit of passengers. As the regulator, the CAA will have a vital part to play in achieving this and ensuring that new capacity fosters competition. Its aim should be to deliver a plan for expansion that keeps landing charges close to current levels. I have full confidence in its ability to do so.
The third assurance I want to set out is around how the expanded airport will benefit the whole of the United Kingdom, not just by creating jobs across the airport’s UK-wide supply chain but by giving even more UK access to important international markets by strengthening existing domestic links and developing new connections to regions not currently served. The airport expects to add six more domestic routes across the UK by 2030, bringing the total to 14, strengthening links to existing nations and regions such as Northern Ireland, Scotland and the north of England and developing connections to new regions such as the south-west.
I am determined that Heathrow will meet these pledges, and the Government will hold the airport to account on this. Furthermore, government will take all necessary steps, including where appropriate ring-fencing a suitable proportion of new slots for domestic routes through public service obligations, to ensure enhanced connectivity within the United Kingdom. It is important to stress that this is a decision in the national interest and not just for the south-east.
So a new runway will strengthen the aviation sector across the whole nation, but we need do even more. Our airspace is out of date. Modernising it will boost the sector and help reduce noise and carbon emissions. We will soon bring forward proposals to support improvements to airspace and to the management of noise, including looking at how affected communities can best be engaged and whether there is a role for a new independent aviation noise body such as the commission recommended.
Finally, let me return to what happens next. There have been suggestions in the media recently that this process is slow or somehow delays construction. In fact, the opposite is true. Members will remember the saga of the planning process associated with terminal 5, which took years to resolve. Following that, the national policy statement process was designed, by the last Labour Government through the Planning Act 2008 and subsequently through the Localism Act 2011, to speed up major projects but in an open and fairer manner.
By setting out now why we believe there is a need for new runway capacity along with the supporting evidence we will fulfil our obligations to consult with the public and allow Members the opportunity to vote before it becomes national policy. That is what the law requires. This means that Heathrow will be able to bring forward a planning application safe in the knowledge that the high-level arguments have been settled and will not be reopened.
Today, the Government reached a view on their preferred scheme, and the national policy statement we publish in the new year will set out in more detail why we believe that it is the right one for the United Kingdom. It will also set out in more detail the conditions we wish to place on the development, including the supporting measures I outlined earlier. We want to make sure that we have considered all the evidence and heard the voices of all those who might be affected—and, of course, of all those who could benefit. The consultation will start in the new year and I can announce today that I have appointed Sir Jeremy Sullivan, the former Senior President of Tribunals, to oversee the consultation process. This is an independent role and Sir Jeremy will be responsible for holding the Government to account and ensuring that best practice is upheld.
The issue of runway capacity in the south-east has challenged successive Administrations for decades. There are strong feelings both for and against a third runway at Heathrow. This is not the same scheme that was previously supported in 2009. It does much more to mitigate environmental impacts, compensate communities and distribute benefits across the nation. This is an issue of national interest that touches every part of the United Kingdom, and which is vital to the economic prosperity and global status of our nation. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I predict that the decision made today will solve nothing because it will be locked in legal challenge for years to come. It is a decision that answers the questions of decades ago, not today’s questions. It is bad for the environment and it is bad for the UK as a whole because still more investment will be poured into the south-east, ignoring the potential of regional airports such as Birmingham and Manchester. It is bad for passengers because they will pick up the tab in the end. The eye-watering cost of this project, which the BA chief executive has called “outrageous”, will, in the end, fall on passengers. The interesting thing is that the Statement hardly had a pound sign in it, and the figures that were quoted were largely speculative about possible benefits to the economy.
What estimates have the Government made of the cost to the public purse of this whole development? How much of the massive cost of infrastructure improvements, which are essential if the Government are to meet their promises on air quality, will the Government pay? We know that Heathrow is expecting airlines to contribute up front and that BA is refusing to do so, so are the Government confident that Heathrow can finance its portion of the costs?
This will inevitably lead to additional charges for airlines. What work has been done to ensure that airlines are prepared to accept those additional costs and will not simply move elsewhere? Are the Government convinced—because I am not—that passengers are willing to pay more to fly from Heathrow, because airlines will pass the cost on to them? Heathrow promises six more domestic routes by 2030 and in the Statement the Government promise to hold it to account. How do they plan to do that?
This will be seen as a decision for the south-east, but faced with the huge challenges of Brexit, we need to engage the whole of the UK, so what additional investment will the Government now allocate to the Midlands and the north to allow regional airports to develop and grow?
On air quality, the Statement makes bold claims, but there is not one tiny detail on how this pollution revolution is to be achieved. Can the Minister give us more information? I note that the Statement is much more downbeat on noise; it simply accepts the concept that it will be a noisy procedure.
Finally, I want to address an issue that was not covered in the Statement: the ownership of Heathrow, which is only 10% British-owned. Although the consortium that owns it has distributed £2 billion in dividends to shareholders in the past four years, it has paid only £24 million in corporation tax in the last 10 years. Will the Minister assure us that this airport, which will be favoured with so much public investment, will at least pay its dues in taxation?
Obscene amounts of money have been spent on persuading us and the Government that Heathrow is the right decision. We know the Conservatives are hopelessly split on this issue and have broken their promises on it and that the Labour leadership has flip-flopped backwards and forwards on it, but we on these Benches have remained steadfast for two decades.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I will come to that final point at the end. Bearing in mind that the decision that has been taken is one that has been put off for generations, I was expecting a slightly more positive response from both the Opposition and the Liberal Democrats, but I will take those questions on.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the 2009 proposal. I have said repeatedly from this Dispatch Box that this proposal is markedly different. I highlighted in the Statement I made earlier that a major part of that is the mitigation measures, both in addressing issues of noise pollution and in the compensation package that has now been presented. Some £2.6 billion has been put forward as the overall compensation package, while £700 million has been allocated for specific issues relating to noise. Ensuring ventilation and specifically double glazing for schools and residences is a practical measure that is reflective of the concerns that local communities were raising.
The noble Lord raised the issues on the process of consultation. Again, as I alluded to in the Statement, the Planning Act 2008, in terms of the NPS process that was created from it, was set up to deal with precisely this kind of infrastructure project to ensure that there are no further delays. The process that the Government are now following and are committed to is reflective of the provisions of that Act. What will happen hereafter, again in response to the noble Lord’s questions, is to ensure that there is an effective airing, an opportunity for concerns to be raised and, yes, scrutiny of the decision.
The noble Lord asked about other options on the table. As I said a week or so ago to my noble friend Lord Spicer—perhaps it was a tad longer—the Government are focused on ensuring that, as the Davies commission concluded, an additional runway should be delivered by 2030 in the south-east. That is where the focus is. Based on that, the Government have decided, after careful consideration of three viable options, that the new runway, the north-west runway at Heathrow Airport, is the Government’s preferred option, and the NPS will be based on that option.
The period of time involved is very much part and parcel of the legislative process. One thing concerned me about the noble Lord’s contribution: he himself acknowledged that Her Majesty’s Opposition had declared that they accepted the Davies commission findings. So do we; I have said so repeatedly from the Dispatch Box. However, the important issue was on additional environmental mitigation measures. He asked about that, and I am pleased to tell him that if he goes on to the website he should find those additional reports and conclusions within the reports that we have now also made available through the GOV.UK website. If he has additional questions, I ask him to take them up with me in writing, or we can have a discussion. However, these discussions are being answered.
I believe that Labour’s four tests that he articulated are met. He mentioned the statutory noise authority; I assure him that we will consult on that as part of this process. He mentioned the importance of regional connectivity; again, I stated in the Statement that regional connectivity is a key consideration, with six additional routes from Scotland to Northern Ireland and to the south-west. New routes will be created, and we will ensure that provisions are sustained to ensure local slots from the additional capacity that is created. Those are all parts of the Government’s growing commitment to ensure that this is a decision that benefits not just the south-east but the whole country.
With regard to other airports, HS2 as a practical example will make the travel time from London Euston to Birmingham International circa 30 minutes. That is about increasing connectivity. Crossrail provides an additional level of connectivity across London through the Heathrow hub to ensure that through those extra slots our other regions are also better connected. Scotland has today welcomed the decision by the Government. The proposal for London Gatwick was very reasonable, practical, sensible, and, as I said, viable. Naturally, it is disappointed, but Gatwick remains part of the UK plc offering within the aviation sector.
There will be a specific six and a half hour ban on night flights which will be part of the planning process as we move forward. In terms of apprenticeships and local jobs, 77,000 jobs will be created as a result of the new runway. Over 5,000 apprenticeships will be created. These are much, if not all of what the noble Lord raised. It is not just a question of what is in this Statement, but the information that I have provided.
The contribution of the noble Baroness very briefly confused me. She said that it was bad for the UK. We are increasing capacity. If we do not increase capacity in the south-east for the benefit of the whole country, we are standing to lose a minimum of £21 billion. What is the Lib Dem solution? This is privately financed. Heathrow Airport has already committed to ensuring that those transport surface requirements are fulfilled as part of its equation. There is not a cost to the public purse.
I have already covered regional airports. I have already stated quite specifically that pollution targets will be met under the national air quality plan. In terms of British ownership, there are companies in the private sector that are owned differently. It is not for me to respond, but Heathrow airport has demonstrably shown its commitment to ensuring that south-east capacity—in this case, London—based on regional connectivity will be of benefit not just to the south-east, not just to London, but to the whole of the United Kingdom.
Lord Spicer (Con)
My Lords, together with the noble Lords, Lord Soley and Lord Clinton-Davis, my noble friends Lord Mawhinney and Lord Naseby and other noble Lords, I have been raising this issue of Heathrow, its runways and the London system in general for almost six years, on and off, in your Lordships’ House. As the song says,
“you never get nowhere by being too hasty”.
I shall ask two brief questions: one about Gatwick and the other about Heathrow. Does my noble friend agree that what Gatwick really needs is another terminal? The walkways to the aircraft are getting longer and longer. There is a massive crowd of people in the terminals now and at this rate everyone over the age of 50 will be pushed around in a wheelchair, which I suppose is one option. Gatwick does need, in my view, another terminal.
As far as Heathrow is concerned, does my noble friend agree that we now have a chance to reposition it again as the world’s leading long-haul airport, which is what it was when I was responsible for it and which I am sure it can become again? If it does, the effect on our trade and our ability to trade will be dramatic.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank my noble friend for his consistent promotion of the importance of south-east airport capacity. He can also take some comfort and credit in that his persistence has today delivered. It is an important step forward now that the Government have given a commitment to a specific scheme.
On my noble friend’s questions, it is now for Gatwick to decide. It has obviously accepted the decision that has been taken. As I have already said, I have visited Gatwick with my right honourable friend the Transport Secretary. We were impressed by its proposals and we will continue to work with Gatwick to ensure that it is very much part and parcel of our offering.
In terms of the overall airport offering for the UK and Heathrow, I agree with my noble friend. I wish to see London Heathrow, the south-east and the United Kingdom recognised throughout the world for its international connectivity which we are blessed with through our geographical location. However, we are now taking the decision to ensure we can provide that connectivity at a global level.
Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab)
My preference is that Gatwick and Heathrow should both be expanded, but this decision is really about Heathrow. Although it has been provisionally selected, we still have to wait, and there is considerable uncertainty about the future. Meanwhile, Paris, Frankfurt and Schiphol will not wait, and British aviation will, regrettably, pay the price. Is that right? The Government hesitate. Behind all the Minister’s soft words, there is still hesitation, and there is no certainty that further delay will result in decisive action, which is what is required at the moment. Is there no possibility of speeding things up? Many people are divided on this issue. As a former Aviation Minister, I consider that we must act speedily, and the delay which the Minister recommends is not the right decision.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
First, I assure the noble Lord that they are not soft words. I fully acknowledge that it may be a soft tone, which reflects the nature of your Lordships’ Chamber, but the message is very clear. The Government have today made a decision regarding the three viable options presented to us by a thoroughly researched report by the Davies commission. We have taken the decision today to proceed on one of those options: the new runway at Heathrow. Linked to that, we are following the designated process as laid out in the Planning Act 2008. I am sometimes asked how other countries have done this or that faster. We have a specific planning process that we need to follow; otherwise we are into the realms of other challenges—and I do not for a moment doubt that there will be other challenges. We need to ensure that our processes are robust, stand up to scrutiny and reflect our legislative processes. In this case, the 2008 Act is very clear and the national policy statement will now follow.
The Duke of Somerset (CB)
My Lords, first, we are not in an either/or situation. I think the Minister said that there would be no cost to the public purse, so is there any good reason why both Gatwick and Heathrow should not be allowed to develop an extra runway? This would provide competition for passengers and the extra benefits that the Minister outlined. Secondly, today’s announcement will have placed a great deal of blight on householders on the site in question. When will blight compensation be payable for people who wish to sell their houses now?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
First, on the point about allowing for both, the previous Administration under the previous Prime Minister commissioned the Davies commission to look at proposals specifically focused on single-runway capacity in the south-east. The Davies commission started with 50-odd proposals and whittled them down to three. The Government’s focus is on delivering that single runway by 2030.
On the noble Duke’s second question about compensation, we are now moving into those realms. I talked about proposing the NPS in the new year and starting the consultation. We have made very public the package for those who are impacted directly, particularly those who are losing their homes. They will get 25% above market value and the costs of stamp duty, moving and legal costs associated with their having compulsorily to sell their homes.
Lord Naseby (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that his Statement today was clear and delivered with great clarity? He is also to be congratulated on listening on the compensation issues which have also been raised by my noble friend on the Cross Benches. There are other areas on which further work needs to be done. Will my noble friend the Minister look at noise abatement and the fuel efficiency of the aircraft that are likely to be coming out of Heathrow and used by the airlines in 10 years’ time? It is clear from all the evidence in the press and, indeed, from the recent report from the honourable Member for Richmond—who totally ignored it—that this is not understood by the public. As an ex-pilot, I have had a look at it, and it is extremely encouraging. Would my noble friend therefore publicise it, as it is crucial in terms of living conditions under the flight path and every other dimension in this very good Statement?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank my noble friend for his comments. It is important, now that we are moving into the realms of the specifics, that he mentioned noise. In the Statement I alluded to the fact that technology is moving on and gave examples of new aircraft that are coming on board. The reality is that in 2030, with the measures proposed, fewer people will be impacted by noise, from current estimates of 770,000 to 610,000 people. There are reasons for that. I mentioned the night bans that will run for six and a half hours. I also talked about the £2.6 billion package which includes a £700 million proposal to insulate homes around the airport. An additional £40 million is proposed to insulate and ventilate schools and public buildings. Of course I take on board my noble friend’s comments. I believe that as we move through the process of consultation and scrutiny of the proposals in the Commons and then on to the vote, and as the NPS comes to its final stage, many of the issues that my noble friend raised will be factored in.
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest as living under the flight path, and as president of HACAN—the Heathrow Association for the Control of Aircraft Noise. The announcement acknowledges that the current constraints do not fully work for residents by talking about “more reliable respite”. The Minister will be aware that the measurements of noise do not accord with residents’ experience. I am sure he will also agree that the best predictor of the future is past experience. In asking what confidence residents can have in assurances and conditions, I specifically ask the Minister about the words in the announcement that,
“the government proposes new legally binding noise targets”.
Can he explain how robust “legally binding” targets will be? Can he also tell the House whether the Government have ruled out, or will rule out, a sixth terminal?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
First, the noble Baroness has probably answered her own question. By saying that something is “legally binding”, we mean we will ensure that it is enshrined.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I accept her proposition, however, that the judgment is often made by those who live under flight paths and have aircraft flying over them. The noble Baroness talked of her own experience. I assure her that I too have experience of planes flying over my own residence. I underline that the Government have outlined the importance they are attaching to the issues of noise and noise pollution. I also mentioned that we will consult on proposals on the noise commissioner and noise commission. That will be part and parcel of the consultation process. There are other measures such as setting up the local neighbourhood engagement board, which the commission detailed. That will also be part and parcel of the NPS and will be factored in as it makes its progress through the House of Commons.
Lord Soley (Lab)
I commend this Statement because it is an important step in the right direction, but we are not there yet. I have been in similar situations over the last 20 years on this issue. Can the Minister make sure that he brings on board everyone in the regions—particularly the airports that are desperate to expand their economic activity—in support of this proposal? This is not, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, something for the south-east. This is for the country. I say that as someone who has lived under the flight paths for 40-odd years, and represented constituencies under them for a quarter of a century. The loudest voices are not necessarily the most representative. There are many, many people in those areas who know how important this is for jobs and prosperity.
There comes a point in time—which, frankly, we have passed—when you have to put national need above local issues. I found in my many years as an MP that I could carry people with me on this when I explained its importance. Many young people at the jobcentres in west London know the importance of that skilled employment at Heathrow. Let us get on with this and make a plea to those who are opposed to it to look at the depth and quality of the evidence in favour—from business and from all the trade unions bar one—and say that this project needs to go ahead, particularly in the light of Brexit, and in the light of the needs of the British economy.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I agree with much of what the noble Lord has said. He has been a strong advocate for this and, based on his own experiences, shares my sense, as Aviation Minister, of the importance of getting this done. One assurance I can give the House is that by the time the runway is built in 2030 and fully operational, I may no longer be the Aviation Minister—I will hazard that guess, but time will tell. He raises two very important points about getting everyone on board and ensuring that we build this extra capacity, which is not only of benefit to the surrounding area in terms of local employment—more than 77,000 jobs will be created from it, and businesses will benefit. The noble Lord is also right to point out the support from the business community and the unions. He mentioned the airports, many of which across the UK have not just acknowledged but welcomed the fact that the decision has been made. In answer to his question about bringing them around the table, over the last couple of weeks I have had various engagements with different people involved with the aviation industry, which included a very practical working lunch—I assure noble Lords that I had only the starter—with the Airport Operators Association, to ensure that the decision that we have taken today is of benefit to airports, the regions and the whole country.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
The noble Lord, Lord Soley, has put it particularly well and clearly. The need has been emphasised for all parties this week to avoid further political dispute to give as much support as they can in making this difficult and obviously agonising decision a reality, and one with the minimum disruption. Would the Minister agree that extreme generosity is needed when it comes to compensation? He mentioned something about giving the full market price and 25% above it, but what is the full market price for a home already blighted? We must be careful that the real, genuine full market price is recognised and not some mingy reduction imposed by our Treasury friends that does not really compensate for the appalling upheaval that many families will have to face. Will he emphasise that point to his friends, and will he bring home to all who challenge the strategic decision that it must be part of a much larger network with much closer links to regional airports, as has been mentioned? We want rail links that are really modern, and maybe tunnelled—and maybe with magnetic levitation as well, which has been used in many railway systems already around the world. We are already out of date on that point. Of course, as has been rightly said, we need a vast reduction in engine noise. We have been promising constituents—or I did when I had some—for 30 or 40 years that that would come about. It is not there yet; there is still a horrific roar, if you live under a flight path, as I confess that I do. It is time that the whole leap forward in technology produced nearly silent aircraft for the future.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
First, I agree on the noble Lord’s final point. As technology moves forward, it is important that manufacturers look at this issue. With the additional runway, the issue of respite for residents will improve. As for infrastructure and transport infrastructure, I totally agree with him. Just to clarify the point, when I talked about the market value, I was referring to the unblighted value—so it would be the market value as would exist in an unblighted form, not on the basis that this is near to the airport, in reflection of the challenges that certain people will face who will be subject to compulsory order. So it is the unblighted value, plus 25%.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, it has taken a year since Howard Davies’s report for the Government to make this decision and we all know why it was delayed. Congratulations to the Government on making this decision at long last: business has been crying out for it. However, the Minister himself has just said that this project is going to be completed “up to 2030”—13 or 14 years from now. Other countries are building runways in a few years and many runways at a time. We want to invest in infrastructure: do this Government have the guts to do so? Let us look at the obstacles ahead: Zac Goldsmith has said that this is a,
“millstone around the Government’s neck”,
and that the plan is “doomed”. Our Foreign Secretary has said that it is “undeliverable” and that he sees,
“an inevitable fight in the courts and I think the chances of success for the proponents of the third runway are not high”.
Justine Greening, the Education Secretary, is opposed to Heathrow expansion. Even the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has expressed his anger about the decision. Our Prime Minister expressed her opposition to Heathrow in 2009. With all of business crying out for this to happen but all this opposition, there is going to be a lot of resistance to it. As my noble friend said earlier, why did the Government not go ahead and allow Gatwick and Heathrow to expand? Does the Minister not agree that a Gatwick expansion could go ahead straightaway? Heathrow would happen sequentially thereafter, I hope.
Finally, what about employment? The Government have estimated that there will be up to 200,000 extra jobs—over £200 billion created in the economy. Where are those people going to come from? We have the highest level of employment and the lowest level of unemployment and we are reliant on 3 million people from the European Union working over here. Will people from the European Union be allowed to work on these airport expansion projects, because they will be needed?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank the noble Lord for his welcome of the decision. I am sure he will understand if, in the interests of time, I write to him on his specific questions. I underline that we are committed to ensuring that we make difficult choices. He used the example of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. She herself chaired the sub-committee meeting which made this decision today. That perhaps underlines her commitment to making tough calls in the best interests of the nation. As to the Government’s commitment to infrastructure, do I need to say more than HS2—£55 billion for regional rail connectivity to ensure that all our regions are serviced in the best way possible? We are also investing in Crossrail, the biggest infrastructure project in Europe. Other countries are now looking towards the United Kingdom to ask, “How did you do it?”. This is how UK plc, under this Conservative Government, is delivering on infrastructure for our country: we are committed to it. I will respond to the noble Lord on his specific issues, but extra capacity means more investment, more companies, more air slots, and more airlines looking to expand. That does mean more jobs.
Baroness Tonge
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, after the planning inquiries for the fourth and fifth terminals—I gave evidence to both of them—we were told and promised faithfully that there would be no further development at Heathrow? So that we are clear what is ahead of us, what does he expect to be the next development, once the third runway is under way? Could he also tell us how many migrant labourers will be needed to complete the project?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I have already outlined the issue of infrastructure. The Government will continue to invest in infrastructure projects. On the issue of when the runway is built, the Davies commission said that it should be delivered by 2030. We will, of course, be working with Heathrow Airport to ensure it is delivered earlier. As to specific forecasts of future big infrastructure projects, I can certainly visualise some but I will keep my counsel on them. On the question of migrant workers, the case has been made today for a commitment to building a new runway, whatever is required to ensure that we deliver it, within whatever environment we are working in. I have already alluded to Crossrail, a world-class project which people look up to: we are delivering it. So, notwithstanding the challenges we have, I am confident that we will be able to deliver.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
Has the Minister noticed that when faced with the need to take a decision on aircraft capacity in the south-east, which would cause dismay to middle-class voters in marginal constituencies, this Government dithered and procrastinated for year after year—whereas when it came to making decisions such as cuts in social security, which would cause deep distress to working-class voters in constituencies that the Conservative Party does not hope to win, this Government acted without hesitation or scruple? What has that done for the reputation of politics, and how would the Minister characterise a Government of that kind?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Simply put, the Prime Minister has made it clear that this is a Government who will ensure that this is a country that works for everyone—and that is what we are delivering. I do not share the noble Lord’s negative view when he says that we are afraid of making tough calls and tough decisions. What is today’s decision? What was the decision on building HS2? I suggest to him that many of the constituencies impacted by the HS2 development are not—nor will they be in the future, inshallah—held by the Labour Party, but are Conservative seats. This is about what is important in the national interest. That is what this decision is, and we are not going to be deterred from making tough calls.
Lord Mawhinney (Con)
My Lords, on behalf of the many people who for years have believed that there needed to be further airport expansion in the south-east, will my noble friend convey to the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Transport our thanks for the fact not just that they have made a clear decision, but that they recognised the urgency of making that decision and got on with it? Secondly, I hope he does not mind if I ask for a little clarification of his Statement. I am not clear whether the consultation over the next 12 months will cover everything that was included in the Statement, or whether it will just be focused on the decision to have the runway at Heathrow. Perhaps he could help us to understand that.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
On the second practical point, the Government are clear that we have now taken a decision that is focused on the additional runway at Heathrow. The consultation will be focused specifically on ensuring that the challenges, and that runway, can be delivered. On his other point, I thank the noble Lord for his support. Of course I will convey his sentiments to my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, the Minister said in his Statement that he is strengthening connectivity for passengers right across the UK. It does not matter how many runways are built. The question is: are there slots for the regions to get access to them? The Minister will know that my Airports (Amendment) Bill, which I introduced some time ago, was designed to guarantee slots. He said that he could not guarantee them because of European Union legislation—but now that we are leaving the European Union, will he, with the vigour, robustness and determination that only he can deliver, take my Bill, which was well ahead of its time, strongly support it, and implement the legislation to guarantee the slots for regions?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I have always regarded the noble Lord as a forward-looking Peer in your Lordships’ House, and he and I have spoken extensively about the importance of regional connectivity. Today’s decision delivers that very regional connectivity. Indeed, Northern Ireland will benefit from the extra availability of slots and connectivity; it will be one of the six regions to benefit directly from this decision. On the issue of PSOs, which he has previously raised, he knows that there are decisions that we have taken—most recently to protect particular routes connecting to London to ensure the continued growth and prosperity of different regions, including Northern Ireland.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, I support the Government, not because there are not important residential and environmental concerns—because there are—but because this decision is genuinely in the national interest of Wales, the West Country, the Midlands, the north, the east and, indeed, the south-east, and because it is the only hub airport capable of getting back some of the traffic we have lost to Paris and Charles de Gaulle. Will the Minister confirm that the decision has already been made to allow traffic by rail from the West Country and south Wales via Reading to go straight to Heathrow? That is important.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank the noble Lord for his support. He raises important issues about the commitment already made on the links into Heathrow, particularly the lines which he mentioned. Certainly, it is our intention not only to remain committed to them but to look at how we can perhaps bring them forward to reflect the nature of the development of the new runway at Heathrow.
Lord True
My Lords, I declare an interest as someone who has for 30 years represented some of those people who accept 500,000 flights a year over their heads and do their bit for the national interest. Will my noble friend consider that expanding Heathrow will increase foreign monopoly-owned power and weaken airport competition in the London area? It will affect hundreds of thousands more people than the Gatwick option would have done. It will add to the safety and security risk by sending hundreds of thousands more flights over our most densely populated areas. It will cost at least £8,000 million more than the proposed Gatwick option and it will take longer to build than that option, keeping Britain closed for business for longer. Which of those propositions does my noble friend not accept?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I accept my noble friend’s point that Heathrow expansion is more expensive than the alternative proposals that were on the table but, equally, it offers that much greater benefit. He asked how this would benefit other airports and said that it may suppress competition. One practical example I can give him in the time I have is that London City Airport has welcomed today’s announcement.
Bus Services Bill [HL]
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon ExcerptsMonday 24th October 2016
(7 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Bus Services Act 2017 View all Bus Services Act 2017 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 58-II(Rev) Manuscript amendment for Report (PDF, 108KB) - (24 Oct 2016)
“(ba) any other relevant local authority any part of whose area would, in the opinion of the authority or authorities, be affected by the proposed scheme,”
“( ) An enhanced partnership plan must include a description of the authority’s or authorities’ plans for consulting such organisations appearing to the authority or authorities to be representative of users of local services as they think fit in order to seek their views on how well the plan and any related scheme are working.”
(b) requirements about emissions or types of fuel or power.”
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, I support all the other amendments in the group but I will focus in particular in Amendment 99, which is in my name. On the train this morning I was describing why we need the amendments in this group to a young man called Chris—I see him regularly although we are not quite regular commuters together. To his utter astonishment, he learned that the provision for disabled people on buses and trains is completely different. As a user of both buses and trains, he had no idea about that and was quite shocked. That is why disability charities across the board are supportive of the amendments in this group.
Amendment 67, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, is particularly important because it strikes at the heart of the principle, which is what we need to establish. Many of the other amendments tackle specific regulations, and they are important too, but I hope that the Minister will take to heart the noble Baroness’s speech and will be able to take this further in due course.
I echo the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on Amendment 98 about the synchronicity of the Statement we have just heard on the most recent Council debate about Brexit and the great repeal Bill. The Leader of the House talked about that Bill and yet here we are, facing an amendment which the Government argue will come into force in March 2018. However, Amendment 98 would strengthen the provisions introduced by EU Regulation 181/2011 by requiring new drivers and terminal staff to complete training within one month of starting work and to undertake refresher training. If noble Lords have ever had cause to require the assistance of staff on buses or trains, it is instantly obvious whether they have been trained. For example, they may try to grab electric wheelchairs if they do not know that that is more dangerous to them than it is helpful to the person in the wheelchair.
Amendment 99 is in a slightly different form to the amendment I laid down before. I am grateful for the Minister’s comments that we are awaiting the result of the FirstGroup Plc v Paulley judgment from the Supreme Court following its hearing in June. It is worth saying that we need to amend the conduct regulations and to do so in time. Following the comments the Minister made at Second Reading, the issue is of such importance that we should not wait for the Supreme Court judgment. It is particularly important for those of us who have disabilities to live independent lives, so we hope that Parliament will take the opportunity to address the issue, regardless of the outcome of the case.
We believe, as does the Equality and Human Rights Commission, that the Government should commit to amending the conduct regulation no later than six months after the Bus Services Bill receives Royal Assent. Of course, the Government should consult passenger groups, disability stakeholder groups and relevant authorities when considering how to clarify conduct regulations and accompanying guidance. Given the support there has been for these proposals universally and throughout the House, I accept that I cannot change the Government’s mind on waiting on the court case, but I hope that we can persuade them to move swiftly as soon as we have a result. If the result is not as those of us who laid this amendment and others in the past would wish, we will be back with future ones pretty sharpish.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this important debate, and in particular I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, who I know has been through some personal difficulties—and I hope that her mother is now also on the mend. I welcomed our meeting.
It is important to underline again that, as I said on Second Reading, the Government have very much listened and worked across the House on this important issue, and that will certainly remain our stance. It is important to get this element of the legislation right to provide the level of access we all wish to see.
On Second Reading and in Committee, as several noble Lords have pointed out, powerful cases were made for using the opportunity presented by the Bill to improve the experience and access of disabled people who travel by bus. I indicated the Government’s willingness to give further consideration to the proposals and have subsequently had many useful and practical discussions with a number of noble Lords whom I thank for taking the time to meet with me.
Perhaps I may begin with Amendment 98. I entirely support the principle of requiring bus drivers to undergo mandatory disability awareness training, and I know how important this training is to many disabled people. That is why we are currently finalising our disability awareness training best practice guidance and why we will support the bus industry to implement the European mandatory training requirement to the benefit of passengers.
I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, was and remains concerned about the potential for the United Kingdom’s exit from the European Union to result in the removal of those protections. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister confirmed, through the great repeal Bill the body of existing EU law will be converted into UK law when we leave. Once again, I reassure noble Lords that the provisions of Article 16 of EU Regulation 181/2011, which sets out the requirement for mandatory disability awareness training for bus drivers, will be the starting point for any future consideration of this issue.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, was concerned that something could fall through the cracks on this. During the Leader’s Statement today, a question was asked about our engagement with stakeholders. The Department for Transport has been clear on that. I cover the wider transport brief in your Lordships’ House but, as the current Aviation Minister, I have also met various stakeholders—as have other Ministers in my department—on a raft of issues. We ensure that any stakeholder can directly access Ministers as they establish their priorities for the industry across the board, and I can certainly speak from experience regarding the transport sector.
I reassure the noble Baroness that we will continue this conversation. It is right that Parliament should hold the Government to account in ensuring that the important provisions in certain directives are reflected as they are transposed into UK legislation. I assure her that a diligent approach is being taken to ensure that these factors are taken into consideration.
I have taken up the practical element of what we are discussing not just with officials in my department but with officials across government. Given that, I believe that we can look forward to the availability and quality of disability awareness training continuing to rise across the bus industry. I therefore hope—and I have put on my best smile for the noble Baroness—that, based on the reassurances I have given and the practical steps I have outlined, she will be willing not to press her amendment.
On Amendment 67, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, I am fully aware and agree with noble Lords that conveying information on the availability of services to assist disabled passengers can give passengers greater confidence in their ability to travel independently. I know too that this is an issue about which not just the noble Baroness but all of us across the Chamber feel very passionately.
As I said at the beginning of my response to the amendment, I am truly grateful to the noble Baroness and other noble Lords for meeting me to discuss this very important issue. As I explained to her, we support the principle of establishing and publishing policies with a view to protecting the interests of disabled persons when using transport services, as demonstrated by our continued use of the disabled people’s protection policies for railway operators.
I accept the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, about this issue vis-à-vis buses. However, the railway sector, with around 30 operators, is very different from the bus industry, which has over 700 companies providing services. As noble Lords have acknowledged, many of them are small or medium-sized enterprises and operate under a very different licensing regime. We must ensure that, in seeking to improve the accessibility of services—a commitment that we have made—we do not create a disproportionate bureaucracy or imperil the sustainability of marginal bus routes. There is a balance to be struck.
However, we intend to include in guidance the expectation that authorities will produce statements specifying the policies, services and facilities that have been put in place to ensure an inclusive approach to bus network design and management, and to provide disabled passengers with the necessary information to make informed choices about their travel arrangements. I will of course be happy to share a draft with all noble Lords when it is available. In the meantime, I will continue to consider how we might further protect the interests of disabled passengers.
In the spirit of the debate that we have had thus far, the noble Baroness offered me an option. I will certainly reflect on the option of Amendment 101 and come back to her. If she has time for a further meeting that would help our understanding in that regard, I would certainly welcome it. Therefore, I hope that she will consider how we might move forward together on this, because the Government and, I am sure, all noble Lords are committed to the principle. With that assurance, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able not to press her amendment.
Amendment 99 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, concerns an issue that has been raised constantly, and rightly so, during the debates on the Bill. It is of great importance not only to wheelchair users but to others who rely on the use of the wheelchair space in order to access bus services. As I have said on a number of occasions, I am a father of three children. One has just stopped using a pushchair but one is certainly still doing so. Access and appropriate space for all users of bus services are important.
Like other noble Lords, I continue to await with interest the Supreme Court’s judgment on the case of FirstGroup plc v Paulley. I am sure that the noble Baroness understands that I am constrained in what I can say until that judgment has been handed down. In any case, many factors will need to be considered properly before the Government can form a view on this issue and take any action that they might deem necessary. It will also be important to understand the needs and preferences of everyone concerned, including disabled people, bus operators and other passengers. Following the judgment, the Government will need to consider whether action is required and, if so, what form it might take. As with any policy, we will consider whether new legislation is required or whether existing secondary legislation can be used to achieve the desired outcome.
I assure the noble Baroness that at all stages we will engage with our statutory advisers on transport accessibility and the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee. Following her interest in this issue, when this judgment comes to the fore I shall be pleased to facilitate appropriate discussions to ensure that we proceed on the correct basis. In my view, it would currently be difficult for the Government to take any steps without being seen to prejudge the outcome of the Paulley case, and I firmly believe that we should await the judgment before taking further action. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, knows that I totally sympathise with her motives in tabling this amendment, but I hope that she and other noble Lords are assured that this issue will be given due attention by the Government once the Supreme Court has ruled.
I now turn to Amendments 101, 115, 116 and 117 standing in my name and Amendment 110 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, which all relate to the subject of accessible information on board bus services.
In Committee I agreed to consider the noble Baroness’s amendment further. I have considered this issue carefully over the summer and am pleased to propose an amendment to introduce an accessible information requirement. Ultimately, this will require operators to provide accessible information, using both audible and visible media, on board local bus services in England, Scotland and Wales.
“( ) the Passengers’ Council,”
“( ) National Park authorities,( ) the Broads Authority,”
“(2) A local transport authority in England that are party to an enhanced partnership plan may, in connection with any relevant function, require an operator of a local service in their area, or in the combined area of the authority and any other local transport authority in England that are party to the plan, to supply relevant information.(2A) If an enhanced partnership plan is proposed to be varied so as to include another local transport authority in England, that authority may, in connection with determining whether and how to vary an enhanced partnership plan or scheme, require an operator of a local service in their area, or in the combined area of that authority and any other local transport authority in England that would be party to the plan as it is proposed to be varied, to supply relevant information.”
Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab)
My Lords, being a traffic commissioner, I had forgotten that we had very little training. I wonder whether, as part of this process, we need to train traffic commissioners much more.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for tabling his amendment. On the final point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I say that training is incumbent on every element of this Bill. Where we can improve training, that should be the focus of how we move forward in this area.
Administration of service permits are intended to be used to allow commercial services that do not operate under a franchise contract to operate in a franchised area. They are most likely to be used for cross-boundary services, but an operator can also apply for them to provide other services that a franchised network of services does not cover. Under the Bill, the franchising authority, rather than the traffic commissioner, will be responsible for dealing with applications for service permits, and new Section 123R of the Transport Act 2000 enables that franchising authority to attach conditions to service permits in certain circumstances.
I totally agree with the noble Lord’s objective that there should be a sanction for operators who do not comply with such conditions. The Bill already achieves this by enabling local authorities to revoke or suspend a service permit if the holder has failed to comply with a permit condition. This can be found in the new Section 123S to the Transport Act 2000, on page 26 of the Bill.
The amendment would also add a power for the traffic commissioner to cancel the registration of a service if the operator has failed to comply with its service permit. Under new Section 123J of the Transport Act 2000, no services that operate within a franchised area are registered with the traffic commissioner, including those operated under service permits, so this addition would have no practical effect. For services of this nature in a franchised area, the permit effectively replaces the registration and the local authority has the powers that it needs to deal with the issue that the noble Lord raises.
I hope that the explanation I have given about the provisions already in the Bill reassures the noble Lord that the intent of his amendment, which I agree with, is already captured in Clause 4, and that he will be content to withdraw his amendment on that basis.
Lord Bradshaw
I am very grateful for what the noble Lord has said. It has clarified the situation: if any of these statutory partnerships come into effect, there will be means by which to make sure that people abide by the rules. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Baroness that local bus services act as a lifeline to many and have a real community worth, as we have said previously.
The amendment would, in effect, require operators who are planning to cancel a service to continue to operate that service for a period of six months. As I have said previously, this is likely to be to the financial detriment of the operator or the local transport authority. It would also require a traffic commissioner, whose primary role concerns road safety, to take a decision on the value of a service to the local community. A six-month moratorium on cancelling a service would apply only where a service is stopped rather than varied. An operator who wished to avoid the moratorium could reduce a regular bus service to one that operated very infrequently. Operators of registered bus services are already obliged to give at least 56 days’ notice of their intention to cancel or vary a bus service to a traffic commissioner.
Clause 18 gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations which will enable local transport authorities to require certain information about a service from an operator who intends to vary or cancel the service. It is designed to enable local transport authorities to obtain information which they require and which will allow them to respond more effectively to the needs of bus passengers. The information they will be able to obtain can be used, for example, to inform the procurement of a replacement service by the authority or to assist community transport operators in designing new alternative services.
It is the responsibility of a local transport authority—not a traffic commissioner—to determine what bus services a local community needs. That is why the Government cannot support the amendment.
I appreciate that many local authorities are facing funding issues and have difficult decisions to make about the services they may be able to subsidise. However, there is more than one option open to them. The community transport sector already plays a vital role, as we have all recognised previously, in the provision of local bus services, often with little or no government funding. Community transport operators will be well placed to serve more isolated communities and my department continues to be extremely supportive of that sector.
As noble Lords may be aware, we recently launched a second round of the community minibus fund to provide new vehicles for community groups. The first round of this initiative is providing new minibuses now to more than 300 local groups across England. I also remind noble Lords of the Total Transport initiative, which supports the integration of services commissioned by different agencies, allowing funding to be used more efficiently and better services to be provided to passengers.
I hope it is clear from the case I have outlined that the Government believe in and understand the importance and value of community local bus services and are keen to find ways to ensure that vital bus links continue to be provided. Given the practical examples I have illustrated and the reassurance I have provided, I hope the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)
The Minister referred to the new community transport schemes and the investment in new vehicles. Can he give an assurance that they will be of a size that is legally encompassed within the concessionary fares scheme? This would avoid the problem that we have in Mid Suffolk where the new community transport scheme is using vehicles that are too small to come within the concessionary fares scheme. We have many elderly people with concessionary fares passes but no vehicles on which to use them.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
If the noble Baroness will write to me about that case, with which I am not familiar, I will respond in writing to both the specifics and the general point.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that response. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I accept that more work needs to be done on this concept, but our amendment differs from the tone of his response. He said that information should be provided to local transport authorities and that that is the onus and tone of the Bill. Our amendment is more about empowering communities and giving them further rights—a bottom-up rather than a top-down approach.
There is still more work to be done to give local communities more control over their local services and local bus routes. However, given the late hour and the need to debate other issues I shall not pursue this matter further at this stage but I hope it will be a part of an ongoing discussion. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Information for bus passengers
(1) After section 181 of the Equality Act 2010 insert—“CHAPTER 2ABUS SERVICES181A Information for bus passengers(1) The Secretary of State may, for the purpose of facilitating travel by disabled persons, make regulations requiring operators of local services to make available information about a local service to persons travelling on the service.(2) The regulations may make provision about—(a) the descriptions of information that are to be made available;(b) how information is to be made available.(3) The regulations may, in particular, require an operator of a local service to make available information of a prescribed description about—(a) the name or other designation of the local service;(b) the direction of travel;(c) stopping places;(d) diversions;(e) connecting local services.(4) The regulations may, in particular—(a) specify when information of a prescribed description is to be made available;(b) specify how information of a prescribed description is to be made available, including requiring information to be both announced and displayed;(c) specify standards for the provision of information, including standards based on an announcement being audible or a display being visible to a person of a prescribed description in a prescribed location; (d) specify forms of communication that are not to be regarded as satisfying a requirement to make information available.(5) Regulations under this section may make different provision—(a) as respects different descriptions of vehicle;(b) as respects the same description of vehicle in different circumstances.(6) Before making regulations under this section, the Secretary of State must consult—(a) the Welsh Ministers;(b) the Scottish Ministers.181B Exemptions etc(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision for securing that the provisions of regulations under section 181A do not apply or apply subject to such modifications or exceptions as the regulations may specify to—(a) public service vehicles of a prescribed description;(b) operators of a prescribed description;(c) local services of a prescribed description.(2) Regulations under subsection (1)(b) may, in particular, make provision by reference to an operator’s size.(3) Regulations under this section may also make provision for securing that the provisions of regulations under section 181A do not apply or apply subject to such modifications or exceptions as the regulations may specify to—(a) a prescribed public service vehicle;(b) public service vehicles of a prescribed operator;(c) a prescribed local service.(4) Regulations under subsection (1) or (3) may make the provision subject to such restrictions and conditions as are specified in the regulations.(5) Regulations under subsection (1) or (3) may specify the period for which provisions of those regulations are to have effect.(6) Regulations under subsection (1) may make different provision for different areas.(7) Section 207(2) does not require regulations under this section that apply only to—(a) a prescribed public service vehicle,(b) public service vehicles of a prescribed operator, or(c) a prescribed local service,to be made by statutory instrument; but such regulations are as capable of being amended or revoked as regulations made by statutory instrument.(8) Before making regulations under this section, the Secretary of State must consult—(a) the Welsh Ministers;(b) the Scottish Ministers.181C Guidance(1) The Secretary of State must issue guidance about the duties imposed on operators of local services by regulations under section 181A.(2) The Secretary of State—(a) must review the guidance issued under subsection (1), at intervals not exceeding five years, and(b) may revise it.(3) Before issuing the guidance or revising it in a way which would, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, result in a substantial change to it, the Secretary of State must consult— (a) the Welsh Ministers,(b) the Scottish Ministers,(c) the Passengers’ Council,(d) such organisations representing disabled persons, including the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee and the committee established under section 72 of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001, as the Secretary of State thinks fit,(e) such organisations representing operators of local services as the Secretary of State thinks fit, and(f) such other persons as the Secretary of State thinks fit.(4) The Secretary of State must arrange for any guidance issued or revised under this section to be published in a way the Secretary of State considers appropriate.181D Interpretation(1) In this Chapter—“local service” has the same meaning as in the Transport Act 1985;“public service vehicle” means a vehicle that is a public service vehicle for the purposes of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981;“stopping place” has the same meaning as in the Transport Act 1985.(2) For the purposes of this Chapter, a local service (“service A”) is a connecting local service in relation to another local service (“service B”) if service A has a stopping place at, or in the vicinity of, a stopping place of service B.(3) References in this Chapter to the operator of a passenger transport service of any description are to be construed in accordance with section 137(7) of the Transport Act 1985.”(2) In section 207 of that Act (exercise of power to make orders and regulations), in subsection (5), after “174(4)” insert “, 181A(5), 181B(6)”.(3) In section 208 of that Act (procedure for orders and regulations), in subsection (5) (statutory instruments subject to affirmative procedure), after paragraph (f) insert—“(fa) regulations under section 181A or 181B (information for bus passengers);”.(4) In section 26 of the Transport Act 1985 (conditions attached to PSV operators’ licence), in subsection (1), after paragraph (bb) insert—“(bc) the operator has failed to comply with a requirement of regulations made under section 181A of the Equality Act 2010;”.(5) In section 155 of the Transport Act 2000 (sanctions), after subsection (1ZD) (inserted by Schedule 4), insert—“(1ZE) Where a traffic commissioner is satisfied that the operator of a local service has, without reasonable excuse, failed to comply with a requirement of regulations made under section 181A of the Equality Act 2010, the traffic commissioner may make one or more orders under subsection (1A)(a) or (d).”(6) In section 39 of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001 (penalties), in subsection (1)—(a) omit the “or” following paragraph (b);(b) after paragraph (c) insert “; or(d) failed to comply with a requirement of regulations made under section 181A of the Equality Act 2010,”.”
“( ) The information that may be prescribed is such information within subsection (2) as appears to the Secretary of State to be required—(a) in order to make information about relevant local services available to users or prospective users of those services, or(b) in order to facilitate the exercise of functions relating to the registration of relevant local services.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, in moving government Amendment 102, I shall speak also to government Amendments 103 and 105 to 109, and to Amendment 104, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones.
An important element of the Bill concerns the availability of journey planning information about bus services. This clause will facilitate the provision to passengers of information about timetables, fares, routes, tickets and live information about bus arrival times. The focus is on the provision of information that will be helpful to passengers in making informed decisions about their journey.
Amendments 102, 103, 106 and 108 seek to address the concerns specifically raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The committee recommended that the new Section 141A should be amended to specify in the Bill the following: the purpose for which the information can be used; the persons or description of persons to whom the information is to be disclosed; and a duty on the Secretary of State to consult before making regulations. Amendment 102 specifies that the information required is that which the Secretary of State sees as necessary to make information about local bus services available to users or potential users of those services, or in order to facilitate the registration of local bus services. As a consequence, Amendment 103 is necessary to accommodate the new text in this part of the clause. Amendment 106 specifies the persons or description of persons to whom the information is to be disclosed. Amendment 108 requires the Secretary of State to consult persons representing the interests of operators, users of local services and local transport authorities whose areas are in England.
Government Amendments 105, 107 and 109 seek to clarify the intention of the Bill. Amendment 105 clarifies that live information includes information about the location of the vehicle, as well as information about its expected arrival time. This is to reflect recent comments made by some stakeholders that, in some instances, making the raw data on the location of the vehicle available may be a better option than requiring expected arrival times. Amendment 107 clarifies the ability for the regulations to specify that where the information provided in connection with an application for a registration is to be disclosed to a traffic commissioner, it can include applications to vary or cancel a service and not only applications to register a service. Amendment 109 reflects the fact that the Bill provides for bus registration powers to be delegated from the traffic commissioner to the local authority where an enhanced partnership is in place. It clarifies that references to the traffic commissioners are to be read as including references to any local transport authority which has been delegated the registration function under the enhanced partnership provisions.
Finally, I turn to Amendment 104, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, which would allow information that may be prescribed to include information about the environmental impact of bus operations and vehicles. I am sympathetic to her desire to ensure that operators and local authorities are aware of the impact of local bus services on the environment. Let me assure noble Lords that other parts of the Bill will give local authorities greater powers to influence the type of vehicles used by operators when providing services, and I have tabled Amendments 4, 15 and 64 to clarify that franchises and enhanced partnerships may include requirements about emissions, fuel and power plant. However, I do not believe that information on the environmental impact of bus operations and vehicles is crucial for journey planning purposes, which is what this clause is concerned with. Indeed, the type of vehicle used can vary from journey to journey, so the environmental performance of a particular journey if different modes and different vehicles are used can vary accordingly. I hope that, with this explanation, the noble Baroness will not wish to press her amendment.
Again, these amendments underline how the Government have sought during the course of the Bill to reflect some of the concerns of the House and indeed those of the Delegated Powers Committee, which have also been incorporated into the government amendments. I beg to move.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation, and I should say at the outset that we support the government amendments on this issue.
Amendment 104 in this group builds on our earlier debates on the need for buses to play their part in making towns and cities more healthy places in which to live and to work. On the first day of the Report stage, your Lordships passed an amendment requiring bus operators to deliver higher environmental standards and to meet the requirements for low-emission buses. I am grateful for the support of noble Lords around the Chamber on the issue. Our amendment is a consequence of that decision. We believe that we need to ensure that local transport authorities, bus users and communities have up-to-date information about bus emissions so that they can hold bus operators to account.
When we discussed a similar amendment tabled in Committee, the Minister expressed some sympathy with it but raised concerns about the extra burdens on bus operators. We do not accept that that is the overriding factor in these deliberations. At the moment, some transport authorities collect this information, while others do not. The fact is that we need to have a national picture of our CO2 emissions in this area of transport policy so that we can make proper national policy decisions. As I mentioned during the earlier Report stage debate, this is in part necessary so that we can measure our response to the Paris agreement on climate change alleviation.
However, I have listened to the comments of the noble Lord and I understand that the Government have gone some way to address the issue in their amendments and in other areas of the Bill, so at this stage I will not press Amendment 104 to a vote.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, we have had several groups of amendments this afternoon, and I am sure that the respective Whips feel like the Grand Old Duke: you march them up to the top of the hill and you march them down again. I fear from the debate thus far that this might not be the case as far as this amendment is concerned, and I acknowledge that many noble Lords have demonstrated a strength of feeling about the effects of Clause 21.
Let me at the outset answer a question that was asked of me. I have said this before and I will say it again: there are existing municipal bus companies, such as Reading Buses and Nottingham City Transport—which the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned—that deliver a high standard of service. They can expect to continue to do so. Their ability to do that will not be affected by this clause; nor will it prevent local authorities working in partnership with a bus company. That is an underlying thread of the Bill.
The introduction of smartcards, the installation of wi-fi, the co-ordination of timetables, and the great strides that have been made in improving accessibility have all been delivered through local authorities working with private sector investment. These innovations benefit passengers and drive up patronage. I have been asked about this several times, and I thank my noble friend Lord Attlee for his intervention in once again emphasising the reasoning behind the Government’s position. As a principle, the commissioning and provision of bus services are generally kept separate, helping to ensure that we retain the strengths of the private sector in this important market. It is about striking a balance between local authority influence and the role that private sector bus companies can play. The Government’s proposal will help ensure that both are incentivised to deliver the best services for passengers.
We want to see local authorities and bus operators working together to improve local bus services for the benefit of bus passengers. I know that this is a sentiment that all noble Lords share. I am sure that many noble Lords also agree—particularly those who have participated in discussions and debates on this Bill—that the Bill as a whole will improve things for passengers. However, as I have said, we have reached that part of the afternoon—or early evening—where there are clearly points of disagreement on Clause 21, but I implore noble Lords to accept that, from the Government’s perspective, it needs to remain part of the Bill.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate. I do not accept the arguments from the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that there is going to be a stampede of councils trying to set up municipal bus companies. I note that no one from local government—
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I fully support Amendment 112. Ensuring the safety of passengers and the general public must be a paramount concern and this amendment places three obligations on operators and one on the relevant authorities.
The Confidential Incident Reporting and Analysis System is an independent reporting system that helps to bring high standards to industry and allows staff to report matters of concern confidentially, with the assurance that they will not have their identity revealed. Operators will be required to sign up to the scheme and confirm that they have advised their staff of the right to use the confidential reporting facility. Secondly, the operators agree to collect and monitor the bus casualty data in a manner set out by the authority. Thirdly, they agree to make this data available to the authority. The obligation placed on the authority is to publish the data collected on a quarterly basis on their website. This will ensure that safety data from operators are in the public domain and, where there are safety issues, actions can be seen to be taken to deal with it. I hope the Government will support the amendment.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for tabling this amendment and the very informative meeting we had with regards to the background to this proposal. The amendment would require bus operators to subscribe to the Confidential Incident Reporting and Analysis System, known as CIRAS. The system would enable them to collect and monitor bus casualty data and make data available to the relevant authorities for publication.
Let me make it clear at the beginning that road safety is a matter of national importance. The DVSA in particular plays an important role, with traffic commissioners, in seeking to ensure that drivers and vehicles are licensed and safe. In that regard, I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that we have had quite a detailed discussion on the role of traffic commissioners and their importance in this particular piece of legislation. The department collects and publishes data on reported road accidents which provide detail on the type of vehicle involved and the consequent casualties. I am pleased, but far from complacent, that we have seen a fall in the number of accidents involving buses and coaches in 2015 compared to the previous year.
I turn to the amendment. An efficient reporting system captures health, safety and security concerns raised by employees and can also, I accept, help resolve any issues that have been raised. I also agree with the sentiment behind this amendment. However, the amendment as currently drafted raises a number of challenges. Bus operators may already have a well-established and efficient reporting system in place. Mandating a subscription to CIRAS, or any other independent reporting system, may therefore result in duplication and additional processes, which could be confusing for employees. Secondly, there is a further issue of naming a specific organisation such as CIRAS in primary legislation. That could raise issues of competition and procurement challenges, and might require frequent changes in future as technology changes.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That is very much for the noble Baroness to consider. As I said to her during the meeting we had on the discussions around the amendment, we must ensure that we have covered all the elements and implications of what this amendment would mean. My concern would be to allow sufficient time to ensure that we had looked at every element of it. The decision whether to bring it back at Third Reading is for the noble Baroness herself.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
To clarify that point, is the Minister saying he is happy for the noble Baroness to come back with this at Third Reading?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am generally a very content person. I am saying that the decision is very much for the noble Baroness. I have made it quite clear where the Government stand. As I said, I accept that this is a principle we need to include. I have also said the way the amendment is currently drafted, by naming a particular organisation, has implications, and we wish to consider what the full implications of introducing such a measure would be. All the legal issues pertaining to such an amendment need to be considered carefully. The issue of whether something can be brought back at Third Reading is very much a matter for the House; it is not for me to dictate or suggest otherwise.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I know the Minister is trying to be very helpful here, and I am also trying to be helpful. This is indeed a matter for the House but the Minister has accepted that the noble Baroness has made a very valid point, albeit late in the day. If he was reasonably content for her to come back at Third Reading, it would help the House in deciding whether to get it back on the agenda.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I have indicated to the noble Baroness the timelines behind this. Let us not forget that the Bill is going through its first iteration, as it was introduced in the Lords. Looking at this from where I am standing, I think that it would be better to allow full consideration of this issue by allowing it to be considered in the other place. If that is so, then as we move this legislation through it may be something to consider in the other place as well. What I am trying to say is that, as this is an amendment from the noble Baroness, it is not for me to instruct or direct her as to what she wishes to do at the next stage of the Bill.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and his promise not to try to direct or instruct me. That could prove difficult in any case, but I am always interested to see how people try.
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Kennedy, for supporting the amendment. It is very logical, when this system is already in place in London and is working so well there. I congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, on his comments on near misses. Of course there is no such thing as a near miss; what it is is a near hit. Quite honestly, we are very lucky that those near hits are not real hits; many of them are a matter of pure chance. If he had talked to the campaigner Tom Kearney, who has talked to me about the impact his being in a coma for two months had on his family and how much worse it would have been if he had died—as so many people have already died—he might feel a bit differently about it.
I would be happy to supply any more information to the Minister that he felt he needed. Personally, I feel that a lot of the bus companies in London that are using the system could use it outside London but choose not to. That is a bit of an indicator that this has to be in legislation and compulsory. If we are trying to understand companies’ safety records then we have to have the data, and what is lacking in the Bill is an instruction for companies to submit safety data.
For me, this issue is about whistleblowing. It is noble and honourable for employees to alert their companies secretly to the problems that they see. It is difficult for them to do so openly but much easier when they have confidentiality. This would be a natural extension of what happened in London so, very sadly, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, my noble friend has devised a very neat way of assisting bus services in rural areas. The problem that rural bus operators face is the demography of those areas, as they almost always have a very much older profile of bus passenger, which means that those routes rarely carry large numbers of fare-paying passengers. The concessionary recompense given to bus operators is cumbersome and inadequate, and that makes it very difficult for rural operators to make a profit. There is a long record of rural operators going out of business. We are suggesting a weighting towards rural areas that would hardly be felt by operators in urban areas because the actual number of rural passengers is very low as a percentage of the total. For rural operators this scheme could be the difference between survival and going out of business. I urge the Minister to respond positively to the efforts made by my noble friend Lord Bradshaw to suggest a mechanism to support bus services in rural areas.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank noble Lords for their brief contributions to this short debate. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has tabled an amendment on rural bus services and concessionary travel. As I have said before during the progress of this Bill, rural bus services play a vital role in helping people to get to work and school and in ensuring that they can access a wide range of services and leisure opportunities. Indeed, this issue has been raised in the House before. I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Scott—who is not in her place at the moment—raised it on Second Reading.
I think we all accept that the loss of a local bus service, particularly in rural areas, can leave people isolated or dependent on friends and family to help them travel. However, commercial services in rural areas can be the most difficult to provide because of the need to achieve the critical mass of passengers required for a regular service. As I have said before, we are confident that the Bill provides significant opportunities for rural areas, and I again draw the noble Lord’s attention to the specific guidance which the Government have now published in which those opportunities are set out.
I turn specifically to the amendment. It would perhaps be useful to remind noble Lords that reimbursement by local authorities to operators is made on a no-better, no-worse-off basis. That means that operators are already fairly compensated for the cost of providing concessionary travel in both urban and rural areas. I believe that the reimbursement mechanism that is now in place is fit for purpose, as evidenced by the large decrease in reimbursement appeals that we have seen over the last few years since the new reimbursement guidance came into force.
If the noble Lord is seeking greater reimbursement for operators for their rural as opposed to urban services, we would be concerned that the amendment would lead to a distortion in the concessionary travel scheme because it is reimbursed on the principle of “no better, no worse off” to which I alluded a few moments ago. It is for that reason that we cannot support this amendment.
I finish by saying that the Government provide, as I indicated previously, significant funding for local bus services. We have talked before about BSOG and the £300 million to local authorities. The Department for Communities and Local Government intends to increase support for more sparsely populated rural areas by more than quadrupling the rural services delivery grant from £15.5 million to £65 million by 2019-20. That again underlines the importance of rural services—a sentiment which I know we all share. On the basis of my explanation, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Bradshaw
I thank the Minister for that. I am not sure that I fully accept his logic. The no-better, no-worse-off rule is a fairly crude one because it is very difficult to tell. It is based on using large numbers of figures from all over the country and ignores the plight of the rural areas, which need more money. It is not coming from local authorities; it is decreasingly coming from them. The people who have these concessionary fare passes wish to be able to use them and the whole structure of the concessionary fare scheme needs to be revisited because it is clumsy and does not take account of the great differences there are in the nature of bus services in different parts of the country.
I have stressed that these rural services will never be run by anybody who expects to get very rich. They will always be marginal services. All I am trying to do is to move them up to a better status than they now have under the concessionary fare scheme so that far more of them might survive. The Minister referred to other things that have been done to support rural services but those are only small amounts compared with what could be done if the concessionary fare scheme were revisited. I heard the Minister but I would like to talk to him about this in some detail later, because it is a very technical subject and I do not want to bore people. On the understanding that we will have a meeting, I shall add that to the agenda if I may, so that I can explore the matter further. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, your Lordships set up the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee to look at precisely this issue. These are transitional and consequential provisions and it is not clear to me why there should be any matter that needs to be looked at in Grand Committee. I am also not clear whether the committee recommended that we should resort to the affirmative procedure. It would be very helpful if the noble Lord, in responding to my noble friend’s advice on this matter, could say whether the committee advised the affirmative procedure. Furthermore, if the party opposite won the next general election so that the noble Lord was the Minister and I was the opposition Front Bench spokesman for transport and I thought that a similar amendment was appropriate on a piece of transport legislation, would he accept my amendment to go to the affirmative procedure?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, Clauses 22 and 23 give the Secretary of State the power to make, by way of regulations, consequential, transitional, transitory and saving provisions. Clause 22 provides that the power conferred by that section includes the power to amend, repeal, revoke or otherwise modify both primary and secondary legislation. The clause also specifies that regulations must be made by way of statutory instrument and any regulations that amend or repeal primary legislation must follow the affirmative procedure. Any other regulations under this clause which, for example, amend secondary legislation are subject to the negative procedure.
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee referred to Clause 22 in its report about this Bill, but only in the context of the power to “otherwise modify” primary legislation by way of making regulations that are subject to the negative procedure. As the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Andrew Jones, explained in his letter of 1 July to the chair of the DPRRC, the Government’s starting point is that regulations which make textual changes to Acts should be subject to affirmative procedure. However, when non-textual modifications would be made by the regulations, the Government continue to believe that the negative procedure is appropriate. The DPRRC did not raise any issues with negative procedure being used for regulations that make consequential changes to secondary legislation, or indeed for regulations made under Clause 23.
Amendments 114A and 114B, which would require all regulations under Clauses 22 and 23 to follow the affirmative process, would introduce a disproportionately burdensome mechanism for changes of the sort which would be made by the regulations to be scrutinised. The Government take the view that it would not be an appropriate use of parliamentary time to require all regulations that make consequential, transitional, transitory or saving provisions to follow the affirmative procedure.
I shall give a quick example. Clause 23 provides that regulations may, in particular, make transitional provision about ticketing schemes under Section 135 of the Transport Act 2000 which exist before the Bill comes into force. Clause 7 contains provisions that introduce advanced ticketing schemes in England. Through our discussions in Committee and Report, these provisions received rigorous parliamentary scrutiny. Any provisions made under Clause 23 would only make provision about how existing ticketing schemes in England are dealt with when the new advanced ticketing schemes provisions come into force. To resolve this issue, regulations may provide that existing schemes can be treated as advanced ticketing schemes. The intention of Amendment 114B is that such regulations would be subject to affirmative procedure. As I said already, I believe that this would be disproportionate. The Government take the view that regulations dealing with such provisions are eminently suitable to the negative procedure. The Government will continue to argue that the current level of parliamentary scrutiny set out in Clauses 22 and 23 is appropriate. I hope that with that explanation the noble Lord feels minded to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. In answer to the noble Earl, if the tables are turned and I am standing there one day at some point in the distant future and the noble Earl is standing here, I promise him that I shall accept his amendment if he moves something similar. He can quote me on that one.
I have heard the comments from the Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) Section (Information for bus passengers) comes into force on such day as the Secretary of State may by regulations made by statutory instrument appoint.”
Bus Services Bill [HL]
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon ExcerptsMonday 24th October 2016
(7 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the Government have tabled technical amendments which tidy up the Bill and correct drafting references. I will go through them briefly in turn. More information about the purpose of the amendments is provided in the letter I sent when they were first tabled.
Amendment 18 makes it clear that the Bill does not prohibit, for example, an executive from exercising franchising functions on behalf of a mayoral combined authority. It does not enable decisions that the Bill stipulates are mayoral decisions—such as the decision to move to franchising—to be taken by anyone other than the mayor.
Amendments 43 to 46 and 83 to 86 are identical amendments ensuring that certain references in the Bill are to all authorities that are part of a scheme rather than only the authorities that initially made the scheme.
Amendments 75 and 76 ensure consistency by amending the Bill so that certain enhanced partnership provisions refer to both facilities and measures. Amendments 79 and 80 ensure that regulations can be made regarding aspects of appeals that are needed in the context of a transition to an enhanced partnership scheme.
The Government have also tabled amendments correcting references and straightforward drafting errors. These are Amendments 20, 50, 52 to 56, 61, 62, 65, 74, 77, 78, 94 and 96. I beg to move.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I will not detain the House by commenting on the amendments in detail. As the Minister has said, they are largely technical and intended to tidy up the legislation. We accept that they reflect the spirit of the Bill and the terms in which we have been debating the issues so far. I will not rehearse the argument we have already had about why tidying up is still taking place because we have explored that in some detail. At this point in the Bill’s progress, I do not think that that would be helpful and we are therefore content to support the amendments.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, as this is my first contribution to Report today, I draw the attention of the House to my declaration of interests: I am a councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and vice-president of the Local Government Association.
The amendments in this group, all in the name of my noble friend Lord Whitty, with the exception of Amendment 70, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch, concern TUPE protections for employees, and have our full support. They are important amendments, as they seek to provide protections for employees and to ensure that, where new employees are taken on, their terms and conditions will not be any worse than those afforded to employees covered by the TUPE protections.
Amendment 70 would add trade unions and employee groups to the list of organisations that must be consulted. We do not accept that new Section 138F(6)(g), which refers to,
“such other persons as the authority or authorities think fit”,
fits the bill. The amendments have our full support.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, made some important points about protections for workers in the bus services industry. As he acknowledged, we have included the TUPE provisions in the Bill to protect those staff affected by the initial introduction of a franchising scheme or an enhanced partnership scheme in an area, recognising that the transition from the current market to a contract or a number of contracts could be difficult and uncertain for existing staff.
However, as I have said a number of times, the Bill is devolutionary. It gives considerable flexibility regarding the nature of the contracts to be awarded by those authorities taking forward franchising and, potentially, enhanced partnership schemes. As I have said in discussions with the noble Lord outside the Chamber, I agree entirely that people should be paid at a rate that reflects the hard work they are doing. I also note the noble Lord’s comments about the danger of a race to the bottom on terms and conditions and the perception of a two-tier workforce. Any authority contracting for services will need to consider a number of factors when assessing bids for contracts, and the Bill will require it to consult and engage with employee representatives at an early stage.
However, it would not be consistent with the rest of the Bill to mandate the basis on which contracts are procured by local transport authorities or the contents of those contracts, as Amendments 22 and 47 propose. Employees and their representative groups will have plenty of opportunity to raise such points during the consultation process for the respective schemes.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)
My Lords, I wish to support the noble Lord, as I did in Committee. I echo his comments about the Minister’s willingness to meet the concerns that we have raised here. However, there is a big difference between consulting—which could frankly just mean writing to the national park authorities and ignoring what they say—and a genuine process of taking into account the work that they have been doing in their areas, particularly in public transport. I hope that in the spirit of the way the Minister has behaved so far, he will take this extra step.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment and the noble Baroness for her contribution. The amendment would make national park authorities relevant authorities as far as new Section 123B is concerned. As the noble Lord pointed out, this section deals with the business case and primarily concerns the authorities that will be making a franchising scheme with transport powers.
I would like to clarify where we stand on this point and on the question that the noble Lord raised. To be clear—I hope this gives a level of reassurance to the noble Lord—the Bill requires the franchising authority to think about the impacts of bus franchising on neighbouring local transport authorities, and this should ensure that cross-boundary services are carefully considered. Regarding his point and that of the noble Baroness on the business case, the provisions we have already made in the Bill will ensure that any authority looking to proceed down this line will pay due consideration because it is now a statutory requirement. I therefore feel that the Bill has been strengthened to reflect the noble Lord’s concerns.
I am always happy to meet with the noble Lord to further understand elements that he wishes to raise. I think the guidance is playing an important part in this and while we have included national parks specifically when it comes to franchising in terms of the actual statutory consultee, we will also bring notice to appropriate authorities when they are considering the overall proposal in the first place. I hope that with this assurance—and I always welcome meeting with the noble Lord—he will at this juncture be minded to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Judd
My Lords, in view of what the Minister has already done in meeting points of this Bill that have been put to him, we cannot doubt his personal commitment to the cause. That is beyond blemish. However, the Government took a very significant step with their eight-point plant for the national parks. I spoke earlier about its purposes and I will not repeat that. However, if they are to be able to fulfil their potential, it is crucial that they are not just one of the people to be consulted—the need to consult them should be in the Bill. This is tremendously important in fulfilling the spirit of what the Government set out in their commitment to the national parks.
I therefore take what the Minister has said today very seriously and I will go away and think about it. However, I still hope that he may on reflection feel that he can meet this point in the Bill, as he did with the other points. That really would be tremendous news, but at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment. The intent and the sentiment behind the Government’s position and that of noble Lords is no different: we all want appropriate scrutiny and independence of the auditing function. The Bill, as I am sure noble Lords will acknowledge, introduces the role of the auditor to provide that external assurance that certain information used in a franchising assessment is of sufficient quality and that the analysis of information by that franchising authority is both accurate and robust.
I completely agree that any auditor performing the franchising auditing functions for a local authority should act independently and impartially. Indeed, the Bill requires an auditor to be someone with a recognised professional qualification as per Part 42 of the Companies Act 2006. By requiring the auditor to have the appropriate professional qualification, we are ensuring that the person appointed has professional and organisational credibility, including in relation to the independence of their advice. It would not, for example, be possible for a franchising authority to use transport modelling consultants, or other specialists, who did not hold the appropriate auditing qualifications. Additionally, the Bill provides for the auditor’s report to be published. This aims to address the issue of transparency raised by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord in relation to the conclusions reached by the auditor.
Although there is no obligation in the Bill for further materials to be published, the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 will apply. These could be used, for example, to seek access to further, more detailed information produced by the auditor and held by a public authority—a point which the noble Baroness specifically raised. As to a blanket view on FoI requests, I am sure the noble Baroness will respect the fact that each FoI request is looked at on its individual merits. As I said, the FoI could apply, for example, to seek further access and information produced by the auditor and held by a public authority. Together, the provisions we have already made, and which I have highlighted once again, provide for a high level of transparency.
I also explained in Committee that we intend to publish statutory guidance once the Bill has received Royal Assent—a point which the noble Baroness also raised. This will include guidance about the terms of reference for the auditor. In my letter I mentioned those terms, so let me provide some more detail. The guidance will make it clear that any auditor will be expected to act with independence, regardless of whether they are the local authority’s existing auditors, and that the auditor’s report will be open to public scrutiny as part of the consultation materials.
My officials also intend to work with local transport authorities and to meet representatives from a selection of auditors as the guidance on this issue is developed to ensure that it addresses the concerns that the noble Baroness has raised at various times during the Bill’s passage, and those that I have mentioned again today. She has rightly highlighted the importance of the role of the auditor and their independence in her amendment. However, I hope that with the provisions already made, to which I have referred, she is minded to withdraw her amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about non-mayoral combined authorities. I can assure him that both mayoral and non-mayoral combined authorities will have to go through an audit process of their franchising proposals in this regard, so in essence it will be the same process for both.
Lord Snape
When they go through the auditing process, will the auditor’s decision be binding, or can the authorities ignore it and proceed anyway?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, I do not think I can give a blanket assurance. The auditor is there to see that due process has been followed, and that decision will be subject to public scrutiny. Any auditor is there to do a job and will do it to professional standards. I hope that, based on the assurances I have given, the noble Baroness is minded to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market
I thank noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. Their response suggests that I was right to return to this question, and indeed the Minister’s response would also suggest that I was right to do so. There is widespread agreement that this is a difficult issue. Of course, it is not just about a potential loss of taxpayers’ money if the scheme goes forward. These schemes are extremely expensive even to start developing, so it is essential that local authorities have sound financial advice all the way through about the financial viability—and, given the relationship with the Competition and Markets Authority, about the legal liabilities—before they embark down this route.
On the question of freedom of information, although I understand that each application has to be treated separately, there are exemptions in the legislation for commercial agreements. My nervousness is simply caused by the fact that every time someone asks questions about a potential franchising scheme, they receive a blanket, “No, we can’t talk about that because it is commercially sensitive”. I am not sure that I would put the same reliance on freedom of information as a transparency tool in this case as the Minister does. Nevertheless, I am confident that he has taken the issue seriously and that his officials are working on the guidance and with local authorities and auditors—so I thank him and other noble Lords for that and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) such persons as appear to the authority or authorities to represent employees of persons falling within paragraph (a),”
“( ) the Passengers’ Council”
“( ) a National Park authority,( ) the Broads Authority,”
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, we debated many of these issues in Committee and earlier. I mentioned in Committee the issue of Cornwall being allowed to do certain things, even though it does not have a mayor. I was rather shocked to hear the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government at a conference in Exeter on Friday, which was about making the south-west flourish and grow. Somebody raised the question of what a mayoralty can do which a local authority cannot. The Secretary of State responded, “If you want any money for the regions, including for transport, you had better get an elected mayor pretty quick”, and said that Somerset, Devon and Cornwall must have an elected mayor if they want any money. We can debate long and hard whether those three counties plus the cities of Plymouth and Torbay would ever agree on an elected mayor; that is a slightly different issue. He went on to say that the agreement that has been reached between Cornwall Council and the Government was of no interest because there was no money involved. They would not get any more money unless they elected a mayor. I imagine that this applies to any other rural part of the country.
Can the Minister say in this connection—because it is all to do with money at the end of the day—whether the Government have changed their policy on regional support for transport? The regions, and certainly Cornwall and the south-west, will lose a lot of money because of the Brexit situation, so if they want any money for extra services such as bus services, whether they are community services or something else, does that mean that they will have to become a mayoralty, and we will have a mayor of the south-west and a mayor of Cornwall? This is quite radical. The Secretary of State was absolutely adamant about this in response to several questions from the audience. Maybe the Minister has not had a chance to hear about this, but it will be interesting to hear whether the Government’s policy has changed.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. On that final point from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, I am sure he will not be surprised to hear that I will look into those comments. However, the Government’s position has been made clear during the course of the Bill. Certainly, on the franchising issue and specifically on mayoral authorities, we believe that they are the preferred model because of their governance issues. On the other issues he raised, I have not seen those comments so it would be inappropriate for me to say any more at this juncture. However, I will read his contribution and come back to him.
The amendments before us concern the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012. As we all agree, and as I have said repeatedly, we accept the principle that it encourages those who commission public services to talk to their local providers and communities to design better services. The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, first raised this issue at Second Reading and it has been a constant theme throughout the passage of the Bill.
As I have said before, and as noble Lords have acknowledged previously, the 2012 Act already applies to certain procurements by local authorities. In addition, based on our discussions both at Second Reading and in Committee—I hope noble Lords have seen the draft guidance that my department issued recently—we have taken on board the comments and contributions made in the debates on the Bill to ensure that that is reflected appropriately in the guidance. As I am sure noble Lords have seen, it sets out that where the provisions of the Act do not apply because the procurement value falls below relevant thresholds, there is still a need for local authorities to apply the core principles of the Act when procuring services. So not only have we listened but we have acted to strengthen the guidance beyond the original provisions of the Act.
As I said in Committee, we do not believe that we need reference in the Bill to an existing piece of legislation that applies in its own right. However, we accept the principle, and that is why we have strengthened it in the guidance that will accompany the Bill. More broadly, I think that noble Lords are keen to ensure that authorities think about the social, economic and environmental benefits and impacts of schemes. I agree entirely but point out that the Bill already requires authorities to think about these benefits through the franchising and enhanced partnership provisions.
As noble Lords will no doubt recall, as part of their assessment of their proposed franchising schemes, authorities will need to consider value for money, which will include detailed analysis of the social, economic and environmental impacts. Likewise, for enhanced partnerships, the Bill specifies that a scheme can be introduced only where it brings benefits to people using buses or where it reduces congestion, noise or air pollution. Therefore, the Government have listened and, as can be seen from the way we have strengthened the guidance accompanying the Bill, as well as the provisions of the Act relating to the procurement of services, we have specifically considered the social, economic and environmental costs of schemes, and that is well embedded in the Bill.
I hope that noble Lords will be assured by the action we have taken to strengthen and enhance the guidance accompanying the Bill. The existing legislation will be brought to the attention of local authorities and will be referenced in that guidance. We feel that using the guidance is the appropriate way to address this important topic. Again, I thank noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, for raising this issue at an early stage in the Bill. I feel that we have made progress and I hope she will feel minded to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who spoke in support of our amendment. I agree very much with the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, about the creative role that smaller companies such as HCT can play. I also very much welcome the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, about the need to rural-proof and about how amendments of this kind can help that process. I assure him that the particular needs of rural communities have been a common theme throughout our debates, and indeed further amendments have been tabled picking up that theme.
I thank the Minister for recognising in the debate and in the draft guidance the validity of some of the issues that we have been raising. I think that our differences always related to the profile that the social value Act would get if it was buried away in the guidance notes. We still have concerns about that and would still like to look at other ways of raising the profile of the Act within the Bill. In the meantime, there is obviously scope for us to look again at the draft guidance and whether there is anything more we can do around that. However, on the basis that the Minister has gone some way to meet our expectations, I do not intend to push the amendment to a vote.
(b) to provide the information before the end of such reasonable period as may be specified by the franchising authority.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, in Committee, a number of noble Lords tabled amendments concerning the information that authorities can require of bus operators in association with either franchising or enhanced partnership proposals. I thank all noble Lords for their discussions on this, both inside and outside the Chamber. My noble friend Lord Attlee made some important points about the purpose for which authorities may use the information they receive. I agree that authorities should be able to use information acquired in connection with a franchising proposal only for that specific purpose and should not be able to use it, for example, to develop or negotiate an enhanced partnership. I am therefore tabling a number of amendments to ensure that any information received by an authority from a local bus operator can be used only in connection with the purpose for which it was requested.
The amendments also make it clear that an authority may disclose the information it receives from operators to any persons carrying out activities on behalf of the authority; for example, an auditor—a subject we covered earlier—or a consultant, or, in the case of enhanced partnerships, any other authority that is party to the proposals. The authority will, of course, need to ensure that any third party acting on its behalf treats the information with due care, and I would expect that to form part of any contract that the authority enters into with a consultant. This will also be made clear in the Bill’s statutory guidance.
In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made an important point about the need for operators to respond to information requests from local authorities within a reasonable time period. I agree with him and am bringing forward a number of amendments to that effect. In turn, I expect local authorities to work with their local bus operators to determine what is reasonable, and to adjust the time period based on the breadth and depth of the information request.
I know it will please the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, when I say that there are a few technical government amendments in this group which tidy up the drafting of the Bill. Amendments 88 and 93 make it clear that a local authority can require information to determine whether to vary or revoke an enhanced partnership plan or scheme, and that a joining authority can also require such information. Amendments 91 and 92 make the drafting more precise. I beg to move.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, again, we do not feel the need to make much comment on these amendments. Apart from the now-routine technical amendments, the remainder are very much in the spirit of requiring bus operators to supply the relevant information to local transport authorities within a specific timeframe. We welcome the improved wording and the explanation given by the Minister today. We are happy to support the amendments.
Bus Services Bill [HL]
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon ExcerptsWednesday 12th October 2016
(7 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, as my county was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for which I thank him, I thought that I should respond. I do not think this amendment is necessary. Many counties such as Wiltshire already know exactly what is happening with bus services in their areas and the importance of them to their communities. Wiltshire has just finished a review which took place over the last six months. We have had nearly 12,000 responses, which is excellent for our county. We are looking at our bus services in response to those responses. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said, bus services rightly need to be provided for vulnerable people and people trying to get to work but also for people in rural communities trying to access leisure facilities. We are doing that. It is interesting to note that we will save half a million pounds this year by not retaining the bus services that are not required by the people of Wiltshire.
However, a much more important aspect of this concerns the number of buses used by public services in our local authorities. Health, for example, spends as much money in Wiltshire on supporting transport in our county as we do. Therefore, it is important that we work together with other public services to ensure that we obtain the most efficient service for moving people around our areas as we possibly can.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I will speak to both Amendments 1 and 113 in this group.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, mentioned the spirit in which discussions on the Bill have taken place, and I support his sentiment. From the Government’s perspective there has been a willingness to listen and to take on board comments that have been received, as well as to provide explanations when they feel that provisions already cover various aspects of amendments.
Amendment 1 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, would require all non-metropolitan county councils to assess and consult on the needs of local bus passengers, with an associated duty to subsequently secure the provision of such bus services as the authority considers “reasonable and appropriate”. I appreciate what this amendment seeks to achieve, particularly in ensuring that local authorities consider the benefits that good bus services bring and undertake a proper assessment of local transport needs. However, as noble Lords may well know, the Transport Act 2000—as amended by the Local Transport Act 2008—already obliges local authorities to produce local transport plans. Authorities are obliged to develop policies for the promotion and encouragement of safe, integrated, efficient and economic transport. This ensures that transport needs are looked at collectively rather than on a mode-by-mode basis. Local transport authorities are then required to prepare a local transport plan which must, among other things, contain such policies.
Under the original provisions of the Transport Act 2000, each local authority was also obliged to produce a bus strategy. These bus strategies contained authorities’ general policies on how best to secure services that met passenger needs. Again, the Transport Act 2000 provisions had a similar focus to the amendment tabled today by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. The requirement to produce separate bus strategies was removed by the Local Transport Act 2008. The rationale for this was to allow bus measures to be integrated more effectively into the core local transport plan and to remove the burden of producing two different but related strategies from local transport authorities. The Government’s view is that this remains the correct approach.
The Bill also already requires any local transport authority that plans to go down the enhanced partnership route to produce an enhanced partnership plan that will set out policies and objectives relating to bus services. The authority must also consult on such a plan. In effect, it would require the local authority to undertake an assessment addressing very similar issues to those which would be addressed in the assessment required by the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I would not want to impose additional burdens on authorities that choose to pursue an enhanced partnership.
On the new duty included in this amendment, which requires county councils in non-metropolitan areas to secure the provision of local bus services, again I recognise the noble Lord’s intention, but the amendment would not make a practical difference. As my noble friend Lady Scott has already pointed out, local authorities are very much aware and indeed practiced in implementing sound policies. This is because there is already a very similar duty on non-metropolitan county councils, which local authorities are aware of, under Section 63 of the Transport Act 1985. I therefore hope that the noble Lord understands why I cannot support the amendment and as such will feel able to withdraw it.
Amendment 113, also tabled in the noble Lord’s name, would require the Secretary of State to produce a national strategy for bus services. As I have said at previous stages of debate on the Bill, devolution is an important theme that has informed the development of the Bill. Indeed, the essence of and the intent behind the Bus Services Bill reflect the Government’s own perspective on how bus services should be progressed and taken forward. This Bill is all about providing authorities with new tools to enable them to improve their local bus services in the way that best suits their areas. It is not about imposing particular models.
Central government of course has a valuable role to play in setting the wider agenda through policy initiatives such as the low-emission bus scheme and our Total Transport pilots, but centrally determined strategies for local bus services would not help authorities to address particular issues relevant to them and to their area. As such, it does not seem sensible for central government to set a national strategy when local authorities and bus operators working together will be designing services and setting standards locally.
Additionally, as I have previously explained, the Department for Transport helps to support local bus services outside London by paying some £250 million per year through the bus service operators grant. We are already reviewing the BSOG system, with the aim of ensuring that funding is targeted where it is most needed in line with local authority objectives. Through that work we should establish and set out central government’s priorities and objectives for the funding that is provided.
I hope that my explanation has given the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, sufficient reassurance to enable him to withdraw his amendment.
“( ) An advanced quality partnership scheme must include a description of the authority’s or authorities’ plans for consulting such organisations appearing to the authority or authorities to be representative of users of local services as they think fit in order to seek their views on how well the scheme is working.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I turn, if I may, to the amendments tabled by the Government, beginning with Amendment 2, tabled in my name. A number of noble Lords tabled amendments in Committee on the theme of passenger representation. Those amendments aimed to involve passengers in the ongoing monitoring and review of franchising and partnership schemes. In Committee, I expressed my sympathy with the aims of the amendments and promised to consider how best the Bill could be amended to help achieve those objectives. I am now tabling a number of amendments that aim to incorporate ongoing passenger consultation as a core component of franchising schemes and partnership plans and schemes.
The amendments require authorities to set out, as part of their plan or scheme, arrangements for consulting organisations that are representative of users of local services. As I said in my opening remarks on the previous amendment, one of the core principles of this Bill is local devolution, and it should be for individual authorities to determine exactly what form that consultation should take. It could be that one authority chooses to set up a dedicated board and consult with it regularly, while another may choose a more light-touch approach, more in line with the scale of the proposals they are considering. I trust noble Lords will agree that these amendments are useful and will help ensure that authorities implementing partnerships or franchising thoroughly consider how best to capture the views of passengers throughout the life of their scheme.
I turn now to Amendments 9, 30, 40 and 68 in this group. These amendments, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, would explicitly name bus users as statutory consultees when franchising or partnership schemes are proposed. I would certainly encourage authorities to consult bus passengers when major changes are proposed to the local bus network. However, creating a statutory obligation to consult bus users would, in my view, create practical difficulties for local authorities. It would be impossible for authorities to identify who falls within that category of people to ensure that they comply with any such obligation.
I appreciate the importance of engaging with bus users and propose to address the issue specifically in guidance. For this reason, the Government have included organisations appearing to the authority to represent bus users as statutory consultees when a franchising or partnership scheme is being made. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is reassured by my explanation and feels able not to press her amendments. I beg to move Amendment 2.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendments in my name in this group. I believe that the Bill is improved by the numerous amendments that the Government have put down. I want to make it clear that, on these Benches, we appreciate the fact that the Minister has responded to concerns on a range of issues. It is indeed a much better Bill than it was. It is no longer, as I described it at one point, the buses Bill that does not refer to passengers. We have gone beyond that point.
The purpose of my amendment is to ensure that bus users are consulted at every stage in a variety of ways, and to bring a more consistent approach in the Bill to consultation generally, because there were huge inconsistencies and variabilities between the way consultation was referred to on enhanced quality partnerships, for example, versus franchising. No matter what the arrangement on buses, bus users deserve to be consulted.
Amendment 68, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, refers to not just bus users but the organisations that represent them. I wanted to be clear that consultation should be routinely undertaken at both levels: organisations representing users, both large and small, local and national, and local consultation of individual users—the old-fashioned notices on the bus stop when the service will change.
I appreciate very much that the Minister has brought forward amendments that take on board amendments we put forward in Committee. We now have a much clearer view of the guidance and what it will contain. Because of that, I will not push these amendments to the vote, but I would like the Minister to give us some further information when he sums up. Passengers need to be at the heart of the whole thing. Therefore, the guidance needs to ensure that local publicity to passengers is good enough and comprehensive. It is no good advertising in some London-based newspaper; it has to be at an appropriate level.
I draw the noble Lord’s attention to the comments from Transport Focus. In its guise as the passengers’ council—that being its official, statutory name—it has emphasised that passengers need to be consulted in the design of the service, and that there needs to be a clear statement of promises for passengers and continuous assessment and feedback from passengers via, for example, research or feedback about cleanliness, punctuality and so on. It must be both qualitative and quantitative research. Transport Focus says that there is no substitute for asking passengers themselves. Those are very wise words. It also emphasises that changes to the service, whether it is timetables, fares or ticketing, and an effective complaints process are essential if you are to get proper consultation.
Please can the Minister reassure us that the guidance, when it is completed, will address those issues?
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, these amendments concern mainly the consultation process and we support them. It is clear that the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, and his colleagues have listened to points raised by noble Lords at earlier stages of the Bill and we are grateful to them.
Amendments 9, 30, 40 and 68, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, would improve on the Government’s proposal, in that they would put “bus users” into the Bill. The Minister said that he was not prepared to accept the amendments, but I do not agree with him. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, correctly talked about the need for consistency in the proposed consultation and for bus users to be at the heart of it. I am sure that the Minister will explain further why he is not prepared to accept the amendments, but it would be quite simple to consult people—you could have adverts on the tops of buses, inside the buses and on the website, asking them to get back to you. That is how you consult bus users in addition to statutory organisations, and it would not be that difficult. Having bus users explicitly involved in the consultation process would be very welcome. I hope the Minister will set out further why he cannot accept the noble Lords’ amendments.
Having said that, I do not intend to delay the House further. We are genuinely grateful for the other amendments the Government have brought forward today.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords and in particular the noble Baroness for their amendments and contributions, and for their broad support for the government amendments. I assure noble Lords that the intent behind the government amendments, together with the guidance, is to put the customer, the passenger, at the heart of this Bill. We want that sentiment to be reflected in respect of all modes of transport. To provide perhaps further reassurance to noble Lords, I have made a note of the noble Baroness’s suggestions and will make sure that they are reflected in the further detailed guidance. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, spoke of good practice on the part of some local authorities whereas others are perhaps not quite up to the mark. I hope that the Bill and the strengthened guidance, taking on board the comments I have heard during today’s short debate, will together ensure that passengers are truly at the heart of local bus services.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, Amendment 3, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has considerable merit and we on these Benches will support him if he wishes to test the opinion of the House. As we have heard in this short debate, the amendment seeks to enable the Secretary of State by order to confer powers upon a transport authority to enforce traffic offences where it has applied for them. The powers will enable authorities to deal more effectively with moving traffic offences, which in turn will help with reliability and punctuality issues for buses, as we have heard. It is not an automatic right: a case will have to be made for why the powers would be desirable in a particular area.
The Government should not in any way be concerned by this proposal as the power to grant, or not to grant, rests with the Secretary of State. The Local Government Association also has indicated its support for the amendment, although, as it points out, the Government already have the power to enable local authorities to enforce moving traffic offences. Ministers could announce from the Dispatch Box today that they will enable that power, which was referred to earlier. I will not detain the House any further on this but, for the benefit of the House, I state clearly again that if the noble Lord wishes to test the opinion of the House, we on these Benches will be with him in the Content Lobby.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate on Amendment 3. In moving his amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, reiterated that it would give all areas where an advanced quality partnership scheme is in place the powers to enforce moving traffic offences. I agree with him that congestion can have a major impact on local bus services, as other noble Lords have said, but I would also stress that local authorities have many options to address it, from infrastructure measures and technological solutions to the enforcement of moving traffic offences in bus lanes.
For instance, local authorities can designate bus lanes to provide dedicated road space for buses, enabling them to bypass traffic queues. Buses can also be exempted from restrictions such as no-entry signs. This can allow buses to benefit from a shorter, more convenient route than other traffic, sometimes by bypassing locations where there are known congestion issues. These are exactly the sorts of measures that local authorities can bring to an advanced quality partnership as their side of the bargain. I also confirm that English local authorities outside London that can enforce parking violations already have the powers to enforce bus lane contraventions, including moving traffic violations in bus lanes. This means that over 90% of the 293 English local authorities outside London can already enforce bus lanes.
I recognise that the noble Lord’s amendment would broaden these powers further and allow the enforcement of moving traffic contraventions, such as at yellow box junctions. There are already provisions available, as noble Lords know, in Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 to permit enforcement of other moving traffic violations by English local authorities outside London. Although the Government have made no current decisions on whether to bring these powers forward, we discuss them regularly with the Local Government Association and other key organisations—as I am sure noble Lords recognise, since we have many a vice-chair of the LGA here. Given the existing powers available to local authorities and the existence of Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act, additional legislation in this context, particularly where it relates solely to the narrowest type of partnership, is not necessary.
A question was asked about why only franchised areas or mayoral combined authorities can get this power. First, the devolution orders for mayoral combined authorities provide a legal mechanism to grant these powers to enforce moving traffic offences to those authorities. The mechanism does not exist for all types of authority. I assure noble Lords that we will continue to consider the case to grant these powers to all local authorities. However, for the time being, I cannot accept this amendment. I hope my explanation and the reassurance I have provided will allow the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Bradshaw
I am very sorry to disappoint the Minister. When local authorities, such as Reading, for example, have powers to enforce bus lanes, they still have great problems enforcing things such as yellow box junctions and right turns. This legislation passed on to the statute book 12 years ago and it is time that it was brought into effect. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I shall now speak to Amendments 4 to 6, 15, 19, 21, 63, 64 and 66 in this group, which all deal with emissions from buses.
As I recognised during our debates in Committee, buses have a huge part to play in solving some of the country’s air quality problems and challenges and combating global warming. I share the desire of many noble Lords for low-emission buses to be adopted more widely, and I thank those noble Lords with whom I have had the opportunity to discuss the issue in more detail. I undertook in Committee to consider how the Bill could best achieve this outcome.
Amendments 4, 15 and 64 in my name make it explicit that emission standards can be specified as standards in partnership schemes or included in local service contracts in the context of franchising. Emission standards can be included in the schemes, thus giving local transport authorities flexibility to determine an approach that best suits their area.
I also wish to ensure—as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, urged me to do in Committee—that all local transport authorities that use the new powers properly consider the potential to achieve better environmental outcomes. The draft guidance, which was circulated last week, achieves this and provides important information about how the tools in the Bill link up with other government initiatives in this area.
I turn to the other amendments in the group. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, tabled Amendments 5, 21 and 63, which have a similar effect to my amendments. I therefore hope that, on reflecting on the government amendments, she will be minded not to press hers.
Amendments 6, 19 and 66, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, would require all advanced quality partnership, franchising and enhanced partnership schemes to prescribe specifications previously used for the department’s low-emission bus scheme. These amendments sit somewhat uneasily with the devolutionary nature of the Bill. They would in part tie the hands of authorities looking to implement franchising, advanced quality partnerships or enhanced partnerships, requiring them to specify higher standards for vehicles than in other parts of the country—whether they have an air quality issue to address or not.
It is our view that this centralist approach would bring unnecessary additional costs that could make the difference between schemes being economically viable or not. The likely consequence is that many local transport authorities will simply not pursue the schemes at all.
I believe that this is an important issue—I know that that sentiment is shared across the House—but the Bill needs to strike the right balance between giving authorities the right tools for the job and not being overly prescriptive about how improvements are to be achieved. That is the objective of Amendments 4, 15 and 64, and I beg to move.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, we are pleased that the Minister has responded to our concerns and that the Bill now steers both local authorities and bus companies in the direction of less-polluting buses. That is very much to be welcomed, because we must bear in mind that technology is moving very swiftly. Electric buses are developing very fast. For example, I recently travelled on London’s first double-decker all-electric bus. There are biofuels—methane and so on. All sorts of opportunities are opening up very fast.
We must also bear in mind that this will become an Act that will probably last for decades—the previous one has lasted for more than 30 years—so we need to look to the future. It is essential that we make sure that new buses are non-polluting and encompass the best of technology at the time. Of course, as the noble Lord implies, there will be a cascading down of old buses but there are other ways in which local authorities and bus companies can manage to provide a less-polluting service. For local authorities, low-emission and ultra-low-emission zones must surely become more popular and common in the future.
I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord that, as a devolutionary party, we on the Liberal Democrat Benches are also an environmental party. Therefore, there are times when we have to balance one principle against another and say that for the sake of the environment, which I remind noble Lords means for the sake of the health of our children as well as the natural world, we have to go with the best possible option. I believe that the Labour amendment has more detail because it refers to a very specific scheme so it is seriously worth supporting. We will not push our amendments to the vote but we will support the Labour Party on this occasion.
Earl Attlee (Con)
My Lords, all noble Lords understand the importance of emissions controls, but when the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, decides what she is going to do with her amendment could she tell the House what she thinks is more important—fuel efficiency, related to carbon emissions, or pollutant emissions such as PM10 or PM5 or nitrous oxides? Does the Office for Low Emission Vehicles determine which is the priority, fuel efficiency or pollutant emissions, or do the Government tell the office which is the priority?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I once again thank noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I am a tad disappointed in the response that I am hearing. The Government have taken a balanced view in line with their intent, reflected across the Chamber, to tackle the issue of emissions. I fear that what the Opposition propose or support in the amendments in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, will in certain areas where there is no issue put a prescriptive obligation on local authorities. The other question, which we have discussed outside the Chamber with both noble Baronesses, is that of the smaller operators, which will be more challenged by the setting of such particular prescriptive limits. When we look at legislation we must look at its application in a national context—notwithstanding the fact that some operators provide essential services, which will be disadvantaged by this proposal—and in other areas where these prescriptive obligations are set, where there is not the same issue prevailing.
I fully accept—as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, mentioned—that there are now, in terms of manufacturing of course, vehicles being produced. May I suggest, perhaps as I have previously on this Bill, a small olive branch? I think that we are on the same page here; we all want to tackle this important issue. We can look to see how, within the guidance that will accompany the Bill, the issue raised by noble Lords about OLEV can be reflected.
I feel, and I emphasise again, that the amendments presented by the Government are not just about devolution. They are also about, as I said in my opening comments, economic viability and ensuring that we get the level of take-up on some of the issues. I fear that other amendments, as they currently stand, would disadvantage passengers and perhaps even end up stopping partnership and franchising schemes happening in certain areas. I think that the Government’s amendments strike the right balance but, as I said, in the spirit in which this Bill has been discussed, we can certainly ensure that the issue of OLEV is better reflected and specified in the guidance.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for tabling the amendments. We return to an issue that I know we have discussed before. As the noble Baroness is fully aware, I have sympathy with the intention behind Amendments 7 and 16. I accept that affordable, accessible local transport is important for many young people’s lives—to ensure greater social integration, for education and for those young people embarking on careers.
As noble Lords will recognise, many local councils already have their own schemes and use their existing legal powers to provide discounted fares for those living in the area. Bus companies also know that helping young people to use bus services by offering concessions of their own may make them customers for years to come. I would certainly encourage councils and operators to continue to build upon the offers they have already put in place. Let me assure noble Lords—I am sure that all those who have participated thus far realise this—that the Bill provides exactly those new opportunities to do so, not least through the ability to standardise eligibility for concessions across operators through an enhanced partnership scheme.
However, the Government do not support a mandatory youth concession being a requirement relating to either advanced partnership schemes or franchising schemes, which is what these amendments seek to achieve. It may be that a local authority would seek to deliver a youth scheme through either a partnership or a franchising scheme. Such a concession would be costly to both the local authority and bus operators. Therefore it is right that any such decision to implement a youth concession for a particular area should be taken locally. That, after all, is what the Bill is about: enabling local authorities to work with bus operators to improve their bus services in ways that address local needs.
I have already said that if you build a relationship with young people, as many local authorities and bus operators do through such concessionary schemes, they will become customers for the long term. However, we do not wish to tie the hands of local authorities when it comes to taking decisions about concessionary youth fares. There are good reasons for this. If we look across the country, only a handful of local authorities have no council co-operator youth concession schemes. If we were to impose a national scheme there would be winners, but there would be losers as well. The precise cost of such a scheme will vary. Depending on its nature, it could run into hundreds of millions of pounds.
Therefore, while the noble Baroness knows that I sympathise and empathise with the need to encourage greater participation of young people using our buses, we feel—I believe it is the right way forward—that it is for councils and local bus operators to take that decision locally in the best interests of their communities.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I am disappointed that the Minister is not more enthusiastic about this. I argue that the Bill as amended by the Government gives some opportunities, but we feel that local authorities need to be nudged a lot more firmly in the right direction on this issue. We are respecting devolution with this because the amendment simply specifies reduced fares, not the level of reduction. It gives flexibility to local authorities, within an obligation, to deliver in the way they wish. It allows them a great deal of freedom in how they do this, but it would ensure that young people receive a message that they are welcome in our society and that they should be enthusiastic about their education and training. I therefore wish to test the opinion of the House.
“( ) the plans described in the scheme for consulting in order to seek views on how well the scheme is working,”
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
This group contains some very helpful government amendments following our deliberations in Committee and we are grateful to the Minister for putting them before us today. The Government have clearly listened to noble Lords on many of the points they made. I am particularly pleased with Amendments 11 and 36, where the Government responded to the eloquent points on national parks made by my noble friend Lord Judd in Committee. However, I support my noble friend Lord Whitty when he carefully set out the importance of a proper consultation with representative employees and trade unions and I am pleased that he has tabled his amendment today.
I was also pleased to see that the Passengers’ Council is included in the amendments before us. There are other important amendments here but when the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, makes his contribution I would like him to explain how the government amendments cover the points made by my noble friend Lord Whitty in respect of his Amendment 35 and my Amendment 38 regarding consultation. I am, though, generally content with the thrust of the amendments that have come from the Government.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this short debate thus far. As they have acknowledged, in our constructive debates in Committee I talked of the importance of going back to look at consultation as far as franchising and partnership proposals are concerned. Noble Lords have already alluded to the amendments in my name which add the Passengers’ Council, the national parks authorities—on which I know the noble Lord, Lord Judd, was particularly focused—and the Broads Authority as statutory consultees in relation to partnership plan schemes and franchising schemes. It is also appropriate that representatives of employees of operators of local services in the area, or areas, to which the proposals relate should be consulted by the local authority on its franchising proposals.
The Passengers’ Council, which is the legal entity better known as Transport Focus, as noble Lords have said, has a duty to keep local bus services under review and to investigate such services if referred by passengers, passenger representative bodies or the Secretary of State. Adding them as a statutory consultee in relation to franchising and partnership consultation provisions in the Bill provides further demonstration of the Government’s commitment to ensuring the importance of consultation with passenger groups. I hope these amendments also address the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and that he will feel able not to press his Amendment 31.
On Second Reading and in Committee the noble Lord, Lord Judd, spoke passionately about the importance and value of our national parks. I appreciate the time that he took to come to see me with representatives to ensure that this important issue was also reflected in the amendments. I want to ensure that authorities that are considering implementing any of the new plans or schemes in the Bill will consult the relevant national park authority, or the Broads Authority, if they think that its area is to be affected. I also thank him for his Amendment 23, which would make national park authorities relevant authorities in proposed new Section 123B. This section deals with the business case and concerns primarily the authorities that will make a franchising scheme. As I said, although I take the role of the national parks seriously, I feel that it would not be appropriate to include them in this section. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, feels reassured by my earlier amendments and the amendments tabled by the Government and will not move his amendment.
I turn to Amendment 29. In response to the helpful words of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in Committee, I recognised that franchising proposals could have a material impact on employees in changes to service patterns and, potentially, operators of services. This amendment seeks to ensure that employees who may be affected in this way are consulted appropriately. It is similar in many ways to Amendments 32 and 35, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and to part of Amendment 38, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. I recognise that my approach perhaps does not go as far as Amendments 35 or 38 in defining exactly which employee groups an authority should consult—a point made by both noble Lords. I will tell them the reason why. We think that the franchising authority is best placed to determine precisely which organisations to consult, as is the case elsewhere in the Bill. I hope that that wider definition will allow them to reflect on this and that they will not press their amendments.
As we are debating consultation with employee representatives I should say that I see mandating this as a wholly appropriate measure under a franchising scenario that has significant impacts on employees. The Government do not believe that it is necessary when forming a partnership. I am therefore not in a position to support Amendments 9A and 10A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. Only in a very particular set of circumstances will an enhanced partnership lead to changes for employees that are similar to those arising from franchising, so it does not seem appropriate to mandate consultation, as the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, would do.
Let me also briefly touch upon Amendments 57 and 59. They clarify which local authorities should be consulted when advanced ticketing schemes are made. At the same time, they add the national park authorities and the Broads Authority as statutory consultees. As I said earlier, consultation is important. As the Bill supports devolution principles, I believe that local authorities are best placed to set out how consultations should be conducted. They will know how long such a consultation should last to ensure that all those consulted have the ability to respond and what the best formats are for it in their area, addressing any specific needs which arise. Best practice guidance already exists for consultation and I encourage local authorities to take notice of it. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, will agree that Amendments 38 and 72 are therefore not necessary.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I am rather disappointed in the Minister. We are not that far apart: he recognises that the employees of bus companies are an important part of making these schemes operate, whether under advanced partnerships or franchising. I do not really understand the distinction between the two. It may well be that there are less drastic changes in the method of working and the coverage of companies within the advanced partnership. Nevertheless, there are potential changes. It is extraordinary that the Minister’s advice concludes that in the list of consultees under advanced partnerships, which is almost the same in all other respects as the list of consultees under franchising, the one element missing is representatives of employees who are affected by those changes. I do not think that that is logical. If the Minister thinks about it, it is not logical. The two lists of consultees should be pretty much the same. It may be that one group of consultees in one context has less leverage or less effect than the other, but they need to be consulted in both contexts.
I would be prepared to go along with the Minister’s substantive amendment, Amendment 29, in relation to franchising if he also accepted the qualification to that in my Amendment 35, or something very like it, which indicates that where there is a recognised trade union—we are not asking the franchising authority to impose a form of industrial relations on a company that has not already recognised trade unions—it should be consulted and, in other respects, there should be proper representation of workers outside the trade union. That is the best way forward for stable industrial relations. It is the best way forward for having constructive engagement with the workforce in the beneficial changes that we all hope this Bill will deliver. The Minister’s argument is a bit illogical in excluding that from advanced partnership and in not being prepared to go the extra mile in defining what he means in relation to franchising. I shall put in a final plea to the Minister to consider this again, come back to us and have some discussions between now and the final stage, because this is an important matter. I will offer an olive branch in that direction to see whether he is prepared to move a little bit and consult further.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That is an open invitation. I am open between now and any stage to meet any noble Lords, but I have outlined the Government’s position at this time. I assure noble Lords that in reflecting on the contributions in Committee, the Government have carefully considered all elements. I agree with the noble Lord in that I do not think that there is that much difference between us, but I have outlined where we currently stand, and it is for the noble Lord to consider where he stands on the basis of the discussions we have had.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I am afraid “currently” does not quite do it for me. With genuine reluctance, because I do not think there is a principle between us here, I want this on the record either way, and therefore, with reluctance, I wish to put this to the House.
“( ) the Passengers’ Council,”
“( ) National Park authorities,( ) the Broads Authority,”
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, Amendments 12 and 13 bring back to your Lordships’ House an important issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised in Committee. I recall her bringing to the attention of the Committee a statement made by the CMA in July. Concern was expressed that, after being consulted, the CMA could come back again and again, which would deter a local authority from seeking arrangements, partnerships or franchises since it would view the arrangements as impossible hurdles to overcome.
The two amendments seek to set out some parameters for a CMA investigation in less than two years, and they arrive at a series of complaints or an adverse effect on competition. I think that is sensible, and I hope the Minister can address the issues raised by the amendments as it is important that we get the balance right here, rather than again making little progress, despite the Bill’s good intentions, due to other factors such as those highlighted in this short debate.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions in this regard. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has proposed a number of amendments that aim to restrict the ability of the CMA to investigate franchising schemes for a period of two years unless it has received a complaint or it becomes aware of a significant adverse effect on competition. As noble Lords have already stated and will be aware, the CMA issued a letter on the Bill on 29 June that contained nine recommendations. Our response to those recommendations was issued on 10 October and is on the GOV.UK website. One of the recommendations was for the CMA to be listed as a statutory consultee in relation to consulting on franchising proposals. The Government have accepted that recommendation, so I am pleased to support Amendment 34.
I agreed that it would also be helpful for franchising authorities to work with the CMA as they develop their proposals. I am sure we are agreed that that should help to ensure that the CMA is made aware of the potential effects on competition and the benefits or impacts it could have on bus operators and local people. The CMA is responsible for conducting market studies and investigations in markets where there may be competition and consumer problems, and for investigating instances where there may be anti-competitive agreements or abuses of a dominant position. If an authority has consulted the CMA on its franchising proposals and taken account of any recommendations made by it, I do not believe that the CMA is likely to have further concerns.
I turn to a technical issue. Schedule 10 of the Transport Act 2000 does not give the CMA the power to investigate franchising schemes. If the authority had any concerns about the impact of the introduction of a franchising scheme, it would make its views known as part of the consultation and would have to consider whether it had any powers available to it under general competition law. Any restriction of powers available to the CMA would send the wrong message about the important role that it plays in protecting consumers.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised the issue of the Government’s acceptance of the CMA’s recommendations, particularly regarding whether the LTA should assess or test partnerships before moving to franchising. I shall provide further detail at this juncture, if I may. Under the new Clause 123B of the Transport Act 2000 inserted by the Bill, authorities are already required to compare a franchising scheme to other options. These other options are highly likely to include partnerships and a do-nothing scenario, whatever the CMA has recommended. We have been clear in our response to the CMA’s recommendation that there will be circumstances where partnerships or the deregulated market simply cannot achieve the outcomes that elected politicians are working towards. A single fare structure across a wide geographical area and transport modes, as in London, is a good example of such an outcome. So we are not creating an overly high or impossible hurdle for franchising authorities or setting a particularly high bar.
I hope the assurances I have given have persuaded the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, that the CMA has an important role to play, as we all accept, and that local authorities should work with it as proposals are developed to ensure that local bus passengers get the best possible service. With those assurances, I hope the noble Lord is minded to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Bradshaw
I am sorry, but those assurances do not satisfy me at all. The fact is that the Competition and Markets Authority defines markets very narrowly. It takes a town—Morpeth, for example—and looks in minute detail at what is going on. Of course you can find anomalies, but that does not mean that they are prejudicing choice or competition.
This whole matter requires much further study. I have not seen the letter of 10 October to which the Minister referred, and I will of course study it. He has not given me the assurances I want. He has not referred to the almost disputatious relationship that the department has with the CMA over the northern franchise.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank the noble Lord for giving way. When he has read the letter, I am very willing to meet him between now and Third Reading to see how we can address his further concerns, if he is not satisfied with the Government’s response. I assure him that our intention in accepting Amendment 34 is that the statutory consultation happens in advance, as we have said in relation to other consultees.
Lord Bradshaw
I thank the Minister for that. It would be sensible for me to accept his suggestion of a meeting, but I have serious reservations about the role of the Competition and Markets Authority, particularly as it affects the transport industry. Perhaps, in preparation for the meeting, he will find out how many inquiries the Competition and Markets Authority has made into the local transport market, as opposed to large-scale industries such as steel or cement. He will find that a totally disproportionate amount of its time has been spent investigating the transport sector, often in minute detail.
With that offer of a meeting, I will beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but reserve the right to return to this matter at Third Reading.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I must admit that we are getting to this juncture slightly later than I anticipated. Nevertheless, we have again had a robust discussion—and this is one of those areas of the Bill that has caused a great deal of discussion. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has proposed a series of amendments, which would enable all authorities listed at Section 123A(4), rather than just mayoral combined authorities, to access franchising powers without the need for regulations to be made or for the Secretary of State’s consent to be given. I want to focus on that first element—on regulations to be made. There would be a further opportunity for Parliament to discuss other authorities that fall within and wish to embark on a franchising route. That is a positive, because it allows Parliament to debate this important issue of franchising further; that should not be forgotten. The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, also seeks to remove the Secretary of State’s consent from the process of accessing franchising powers.
I have had time to reflect on the various contributions and have met with various noble Lords outside the Chamber post-Committee, but it remains the Government’s position that the decision and model we are pursuing is the right one. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, mentioned passengers; we believe that it is the right one for passengers, British businesses and employees in this important sector. Bus companies invest in their staff, buses, new services and improvements for passengers because they expect to achieve long-term benefits. If a local transport authority automatically has the power to pursue bus franchising at any point, the period of investment certainty is reduced. Operators in that area will think twice about these investment decisions. Let us be clear that we are not excluding anyone; we believe that the mayoral authorities have the key differential of having strategic transport as part of their direct responsibilities. When other local authorities see benefits for passengers in bus franchising, the risk of seeking access to franchising will have to be weighed up by the local authority, and their decision may be that the risk is worth taking. Similarly, where a mayoral combined authority has automatic access to franchising powers, there will be a single, elected individual with a fixed term of office with whom the decision on whether to pursue franchising rests. I would be surprised if most mayoral candidates did not set out their position on this issue at hustings or in their electoral manifestos. That remains to be seen.
For the risks that I have outlined to be present in relation to every local transport authority area, whether the authority is interested in franchising or not, is, however, another thing altogether. That is particularly true for investment in buses, where the ability of larger operators to assume they could get a return on their investment by moving a vehicle from one part of the country to another could be compromised. My issue with the amendments is not to do with protecting bus companies or anything to do with a principle of giving franchising powers automatically only to elected mayors. Rather, it is about the period of uncertainty there would be for operators, as my noble friend Lord Attlee said, if all local transport authorities had access to franchising powers as a matter of course. This would have real impacts on bus passengers, British bus manufacturing jobs and employees in the sector.
During our previous debates, noble Lords wanted to understand the kind of criteria that the Secretary of State would be considering as part of giving his consent to franchising. I am sure that noble Lords have received them; we provided them in the draft guidance and policy statement document that was issued to Peers last week—but it is important to summarise those criteria at this juncture. Noble Lords have referred to the issue of the Secretary of State and the powers that the Secretary of State would have. Let me be clear how that decision on franchising would be made.
First, an authority would need to articulate why and how franchising would deliver better bus services and improve the day-to-day experience of passengers. That puts passengers at the heart of that decision. It should also explain why the same outcomes could not be achieved in other ways.
Secondly, a local authority should have the powers to make franchising a success. Controlling local roads and parking policy, as well as having planning responsibilities, are key to being able to manage many of the factors that affect bus usage. If an authority does not have all those levers, it should explain how it will work with other authorities to do so.
That brings me to the third aspect: any decision to implement bus franchising needs to be transparent and accountable. An authority seeking to take up franchising powers should demonstrate clearly how this will be achieved. A named individual, such as a council leader, might be an appropriate approach.
Fourthly, an authority would need to illustrate why the geographical area that it proposes is appropriate. This should take into account travel patterns and consider the potential impact on other local authority areas.
Finally, it is vital that the authority has the capability and resources to deliver franchising. Those that can demonstrate a successful track record in delivering complex projects, a real commitment to improving public transport and explain how they will resource a franchising system would be best placed to apply for consent.
Those are the criteria that the Secretary of State will apply in any decision. I do not think that anyone in this Chamber or beyond would challenge them, because they are the right checks and balances to have in place to make an important long-term investment decision on the provision of local bus services.
We have talked about the differentiation with mayoral combined authorities. I am sure that many noble Lords would acknowledge that they already meet the vast majority of these criteria and have a genuine interest in bus franchising. So it is pragmatic to give them those powers in the Bill. It has been suggested that we are denying other local authorities the model, but that is not the case. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, about Cornwall. As part of devolution discussions, when those criteria can be met, clearly there is a case for other authority structures to be given exactly those powers—but there is a process to be followed. There will be secondary legislation and an affirmative instrument introduced on the type of authority; then it is right that a local authority on a case-by-case basis should show to the Secretary of State that the criteria that I have just illustrated, which are important criteria in making franchising decisions, can be fully met. That is why the Bill requires the Secretary of State’s consent to be sought, following regulations that make the class of authority a franchising authority.
These are important issues that can be considered on a case-by-case basis. It is about long-term investment in the passengers’ interests. Under the criteria that I have outlined, franchising will be an option when it makes sense for passengers, it is clear that the authority can deliver on its promises and the authority concerned is clear how it will reach transparent and accountable decisions.
The prior requirement for regulations to enable other categories of authorities to become franchising authorities also serves an important purpose. It ensures that all of us here and in the other place—all of us in Parliament—are able to scrutinise the appropriateness of such a category of authorities before becoming a franchising authority. The existence of this step on the route to accessing franchising powers provides for that clarity and certainty of investment for bus operators serving types of authority that do not have automatic access to franchising powers.
The removal of such a parliamentary process, and the removal of the need for the Secretary of State’s consent, would reduce the period of certainty in the bus market with the potential for reduced investment and less—
Lord Woolmer of Leeds (Lab)
The Minister spoke of categories of authorities, which are referred to in the Bill. In the case of non-mayoral combined authorities, for example, would an individual non-mayoral combined authority be able to apply under these regulations separately from the others or would the Minister seek to judge whether any such non-mayoral combined authority would qualify? If it were the latter, an individual non-mayoral combined authority could very well be placed under the criteria that the Minister has set out, but other non-mayoral authorities may not be. Can the Minister explain whether these regulations in the first part of the Bill relate to categories of authorities or individual authorities?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That is an important question. Parliamentary approval would be for the category, then it would subsequently be for the individual authority to apply to the Secretary of State and to ensure that it meets the criteria that I have illustrated. The noble Lord sought an important clarification and I trust that it is now clear.
I hope that in my detailed contribution, I have demonstrated to noble Lords that the Government’s approach to accessing franchising powers is sensible and practical, and that it ensures long-term investment decisions, putting passengers at the heart of those decisions and ensuring that they reflect the needs of passengers locally. It is, I believe, in the best interests of bus passengers, business, and employees in the sector.
I hope that noble Lords, including the noble Lord and noble Baroness who tabled these amendments, have been reassured by what I have outlined. I hope that what I promised in Committee about the criteria upon which the Secretary of State would make that decision and the sharing of that criteria has provided further reassurance.
I raise a final technicality: the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about grouping and treating these amendments as a package, but that is not how the Government view them. I hope, through the reassurances, clarity and extra information that I have provided between Committee stage and now—I am really pleased that the Bus Services Bill is attracting your Lordships’ interest and attention—that the noble Lord will be minded to withdraw his amendments.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his response and all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, which has gone on for a bit longer than I envisaged as well. I have to say that I am disappointed with the noble Lord’s response. He has been very accommodating through the whole passage of this Bill up to now; he and I have worked very well together, but I am disappointed.
I agree with many of the comments made around the House, particularly those of the noble Lord, Lord Horam. With all the doom and gloom about franchising, you would think that if it were that bad, the Government would be seeking to end it. This is more about an obsession with mayors. I hope that the Government will reflect on that and that some other point will deal with it. It is certainly wise to give powers to a wider group of authorities and I wish to test the opinion of the House.
“( ) The terms as to standard of service that may be specified include terms about requirements which vehicles being used to provide the service must meet, including requirements about emissions or types of fuel or power.”
“( ) A franchising scheme must include a description of the franchising authority’s or authorities’ plans for consulting such organisations appearing to the authority or authorities to be representative of users of local services as they think fit in order to seek their views on how well the scheme is working.”
Airports: London
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Spicer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will publish their decision about additional runways for London airports.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the Government are absolutely committed to delivering the infrastructure projects the country needs, including delivering runway capacity on the timetable set out by the Airports Commission. It is vitally important we get the decision right. As noble Lords will know, the Government commissioned extra work looking at the three options shortlisted by the commission. Ministers are carefully considering all the evidence, and will be in a position to announce a preferred scheme shortly.
Lord Spicer (Con)
It sounds as though we are getting closer. Would it not be wonderful if this were the last time I asked the same Question about a third runway at Heathrow? Would it not be even more wonderful if it were the last time I got the same answer?
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, last time I asked my noble friend this question he said that “shortly” would be “soon”. Is it any sooner?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I suspected this question might come up, so I have been thumbing through my thesaurus, which is quite well read. All I can say is that perhaps “shortly” will also mean “imminently”.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, what is the current status of the Conservative Party pledge in 2009: no ifs, no buts, no third runway at Heathrow?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As the noble Lord is aware, the previous Prime Minister made that statement when he was looking at a very different proposition. Since then, as the noble Lord is also aware, the commission has reported and presented three viable options. The Government will be looking to make a call on south-east capacity shortly.
Lord Bradshaw (LD)
My Lords, will the Minister give consideration, apart from all this metropolitan stuff, to the interests of regional airports in this country, particularly Birmingham, which, when we have HS2, will be as close to London as is Heathrow or Gatwick? This is the sort of thing that is stalking up and it is likely to be ready before the runaway at Heathrow.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord raises an important issue about regional connectivity and regional airports. I had the opportunity to visit Birmingham last week and I saw its plans. The noble Lord is quite right that, once HS2 has been built, it will take 30-odd minutes to go from London Euston to Birmingham. That underlines the importance of ensuring that our national infrastructure supports the general infrastructure of aviation. The regional connectivity of airports will be in my review of the airport policy framework.
Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab)
How long have the Government and others had to make up their minds about London’s additional runways? Does the Minister believe that it is possible for some sort of decision to be advanced rather than, as I fear it will be, regarded as something that can be withdrawn?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord raises the important issue that a decision needs to be made. I assure your Lordships’ House that the Government are looking to make that decision. They also fully appreciate and understand the importance of making a decision in this respect to ensuring the continuing viability and growth of the British economy.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
My Lords, would the Minister confirm whether, in making this decision, the Government will consider the possibility of one of the two Heathrow options and Gatwick? We probably need both of them as, if one of the Heathrow options is chosen, the legal objections might drag on, and at least we would be able to get on with one airport in the meantime. Could the Minister also confirm the rumours that the current Foreign Secretary is going to go back on his promise to lie in front of the bulldozers if Heathrow is chosen and spare damage to the bulldozers?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My right honourable friend has a very important job as Foreign Secretary and is doing a sterling job in that respect. As far as expansion is concerned, the commission reported back on the need to increase capacity by 2030 with the addition of one runway in the south-east, and that is where the Government’s decision is focused.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, HS2 notwithstanding, is the Minister aware that it is currently possible to get from London to London Luton Airport in less than half an hour?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am fully aware of that fact, and the noble Lord will be pleased to learn that I shall be visiting London Luton Airport in the next two weeks, as my next visit since my appointment as the Aviation Minister.
Lord Mawhinney (Con)
My Lords, can my noble friend tell us whether, when the Government make their decision shortly, they will take into account the likelihood of legal challenge?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The important issue is that, once the Government have taken a decision, there is a set process to follow for the proposal which is given the green light. A formal process will then be initiated, and we have already agreed that there will be a national development framework through which this will be presented. After that, there will be a development consent order by those who have successfully got the green light for this. During that process, if there are legal challenges to any decision or any element of that, the Government and those who are putting forward the proposal will deal with them according to the planning process which has been determined.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that British industry has almost completed two airports in Rosyth naval base, which will enable people to go around the world and which have been built in less time than the various debates about this runway at Heathrow have taken. Does the Minister not agree that perhaps some more orders to British shipbuilding would be appropriate, considering how well they have done in doing this in such a short time?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I have always been a strong advocate for British shipbuilding, and I will continue to be.
Bus Services Bill [HL]
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:
Clauses 1 and 2, Schedule 1, Clauses 3 to 6. Schedule 2. Clauses 7 and 8, Schedule 3, Clauses 9 to 15, Schedule 4, Clauses 16 to 26, Title.
Southern Rail
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 8 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the granting of additional funds, what further steps they will take to ensure a better service for all customers of Southern Rail.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, Network Rail has committed £20 million for improvements to the Southern network. This fund will be focused on track and infrastructure works and additional staff to ensure that performance improves. The Secretary of State for Transport has also announced the appointment of Chris Gibb to head up a project board, whose remit is to deliver service improvements and closer working relationships between Govia Thameslink Railway and Network Rail.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, the £20 million extra funding to assist Southern, despite its 27% increase in profits announced last week, surely gives the Government a stronger hand to insist that long-suffering passengers get a better deal. Can the Minister explain to us why Southern has been allowed to reject applications for compensation for train delays, which have been made using a special app, and when will the Government introduce the entitlement to compensation for delays of 15 minutes, which was promised last year by David Cameron?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
On the noble Baroness’s second point, I know that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is looking at the whole issue of compensation, including making it available for delays of 15 minutes; noble Lords will know that it is currently available for delays of 30 minutes. On the specific app, GTR has specific processes for delay and compensation, and an online form is available. One thing it does not entertain is third-party applications. If there are specific examples of compensation applications being directly made via the online application that have then not been paid out, I would be happy if she wrote to me with the detail so that I can take it up directly.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, can the Government confirm that the train operators concerned in this present dispute have safety cases to allow one-person operation of the trains? I recall that it happens in many parts of the country and clearly, they must have got it, but this problem has been going on for much too long. Will the Government put as much pressure as they can on Chris Gibb and his team to get everybody around a table to sort it out once and for all?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure that many of those who know the rail industry also know that Chris Gibb himself also brings around 30 years’ experience. His appointment will expedite the resolution of what has been, as the noble Lord rightly points out, a long-standing dispute; obviously, the people who are suffering are the customers.
Lord Dholakia (LD)
My Lords, Southern is boasting about returning to service some of the trains which were cut—about 350 of them a few weeks ago. Yesterday a 12-coach train was reduced to five and this morning a 12-coach train was reduced to four. Is anybody monitoring the situation to find out what the impact has been on individual commuters and, more importantly, the tourist trade and the economy of this country?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, the noble Lord is right to point out the operational challenges posed to consumers and those visiting the UK. I assure him that the new Rail Minister is in constant dialogue with the operator and with Network Rail. In addition, it is important to note that while a reduced timetable has been in operation, I am pleased to say that 119 services which were originally suspended have today been reintroduced, which I hope will have a positive impact on the scheduling of services.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
Unless the Government take the hardly objective view that no responsibility of any significance for the poor level of service provided by Southern Rail can be attributed to the performance, or lack of it, of the top management of the company and that industrial action is the only cause of that poor service, why is Southern Rail not in breach of the terms of its franchise contract? Why has the Government’s response been not to take any action against the company for that breach but, instead, to provide additional money to improve services when Southern Rail is part of a transport organisation which we now know would have no difficulty in finding that money itself. That additional money is coming from the taxes of the very passengers having to put up with poor service and cancellations over a lengthy period—a double whammy for Southern Rail passengers if ever there was one.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As the noble Lord is fully aware, while there have been issues with GTR, there have also been problems on the tracks. Only yesterday I learned that a challenge was posed by a hole appearing near Waterloo East, and other issues apart from the industrial dispute have compounded the challenges on this line. However, the Government have taken responsibility in imploring the train operator and representatives of the different trade unions to get round the table, negotiate a settlement and move forward on this long-standing dispute. It is important that we do so in the interests of the long-suffering commuters and other users of that network.
Baroness Donaghy (Lab)
The Minister will know that some railway stations on those lines are dangerously overcrowded. Passengers can be dumped without notice, including foreign visitors who have just arrived at Gatwick. The passenger levels at some stations, including East Croydon and Clapham Junction, are reaching the point where there are going to be terrible accidents one day with so many people on the platforms. What health and safety issues are being discussed, and can the Government give us an assurance that these will be dealt with?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As I said, the Government are looking at this matter, and that is why the Secretary of State has announced the new fund. To give some reassurance to the noble Baroness, £2 million of the £20 million fund will be spent on additional rapid response teams, which will be located at known hot spots to reduce the time needed to fix problems, £800,000 will be invested in additional signal supervisors, and there will be additional investment in the stations mentioned by the noble Baroness to ensure that people are well informed. However, I totally accept, as I have previously, that there are major challenges on this network that require a resolution. The Government are seeking to provide this company with support and direction through the Rail Minister to get this long-standing dispute resolved in the interests of all.
Airports: London
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Spicer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will announce their decision about extra runways for London’s airports.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the Government are committed to delivering the important infrastructure projects the country needs, including delivering runway capacity to the timetable set out by the Airports Commission. As noble Lords will appreciate, it is vital we get this decision right. The Government commissioned extra work looking at the three options shortlisted by the commission. Ministers will consider this alongside the comprehensive evidence published by the commission before reaching a final view on the preferred scheme.
Lord Spicer (Con)
My Lords, I warmly congratulate my noble friend on his well-deserved promotion to Minister of Aviation, which is a job I once held. Is not this whole issue getting a bit out of date? Should we consider asking not whether Heathrow or Gatwick will have another runway, but whether Gatwick and Heathrow will have extra runways?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
First, I thank my noble friend for his kind remarks. He served in a very distinguished capacity as Aviation Minister, but he is also quite right to mention aviation capacity in the south-east. As I have said previously from this Dispatch Box, the Davies commission carried out quite comprehensive work in this regard. Three options were presented to the Government, which remain on the table.
Lord Soley (Lab)
In this post-Brexit world, will the Minister use his enhanced position, which is well deserved—he has been a good supporter of the expansion issue—to make sure his Cabinet colleagues, and the Prime Minister, who is chairing the relevant committee, understand that it is critical that Heathrow can deliver the services the rest of the world will expect if we are to be part of that market? To follow the comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, they need to recognise that we need a better way to deal with airport expansion in this country. Expansion of airports is critical to both regional and national economies.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord is right in that over the summer there have been a few changes in the Government and in the position of the United Kingdom. A new Government, Prime Minister and Secretary of State are in place, but I assure the noble Lord—indeed, all noble Lords—that the Government are giving this decision a high priority. It is paramount in our mind. The other element to bear in mind is that it will be in line with the Davies commission to ensure that we have this extra capacity operational by 2030.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, this decision concentrates on the south-east. It will have an adverse impact on airports elsewhere, not least because if we have more flights in the south-east we will have to have fewer in the rest of the UK to reach our carbon reduction targets. Will the Minister seek to persuade the new Prime Minister that she needs to make this decision with the interests of every part of the UK in mind?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I assure the noble Baroness that, knowing the new Prime Minister well, the right honourable lady will make all decisions, whether on airport expansion or on the economy and our position on the international stage, focusing on what is of benefit to the United Kingdom as a whole. The noble Baroness raises an important issue about regional airport capacity and regional connectivity. I assure her and the whole House again that the decision taken on expansion of south-east capacity will reflect the importance of the aviation industry and airport connectivity, in particular to our international positioning.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
Are there any issues relating to additional runway capacity in the south-east and the Davies commission report that are now being considered by Theresa May’s Government that were not being considered, prior to his leaving office, by David Cameron’s Government?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The Government’s position remains consistent. The Prime Minister may have changed but the Government’s position remains that the Davies commission was commissioned to look specifically at airport capacity in the south-east. As I said earlier, there are three options on the table and they are all being considered.
Lord Mawhinney (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Spicer asked when the Government’s decision will be announced. I wonder whether my noble friend could answer that Question.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The best answer I can give is that the Government will be looking to make that decision very shortly.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, does that not imply that the consistency of the Government’s position, which the Minister has just referred to, is that this issue is to be kept in the long grass for as long as possible?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I assure the noble Lord that there is no long grass. To continue with that metaphor, I have the lawnmower at the ready if there was any such long grass. I do not think it is inconsistent at all. The Government have given priority to this decision. The previous Government and the previous Prime Minister commissioned the Davies commission to look at this important issue. I have already reiterated the point that the Government are giving high priority to this issue. The decision will be made shortly.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)
Does the decision of the Government to widen the M4 to an eight-lane motorway indicate that the decision has already been made for a new runway at Heathrow, in spite of the enormous opposition to such a project?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That is a very open-ended question but I would be very much inclined to say to my noble friend: sooner.
Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, on his unremitting campaign for the best interests of British aviation. Is it not clear that the longer a decision on this vital issue is delayed, the worse it will be for British aviation? In my view, a decision should have been made long ago, and the Government are playing for time. The more we encounter delay, the more British aviation will suffer while its rivals manage to march forward unremittingly.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I agree with the noble Lord about the way in which my noble friend Lord Spicer has ensured that this issue is kept at the forefront. I assure all noble Lords that the importance of the aviation sector is a high priority for this Government. I further assure the noble Lord that the decision that will be taken will be in the best interests of the aviation sector, as well as of the country as a whole.
Southern Rail: Disabled Passengers
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with Southern Rail regarding disabled passengers, in the light of the company’s plans to change the role of conductors.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, each train operator is required to participate in the passenger assist system, run by the Association of Train Operating Companies, which allows disabled passengers to book staff assistance when required, and in a disabled persons’ protection policy, enforced by the Office of Rail and Road, setting out the level of services and facilities that disabled passengers can expect, how to get staff assistance and how to get help. This will not change.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware of the shocking daily chaos that is Southern Rail. Passengers are at breaking point, and there is no support from the company or the Government, but all those cuts, cancellations and overcrowding problems are compounded for those with disabilities, for whom railway travel is becoming more difficult and, for some, inaccessible. Could the Minister confirm reports of a wheelchair user being told recently that their wheelchair was too heavy for the bus replacement service and that on the new driver-operated trains disabled passengers would have to phone the station at least 24 hours in advance? Is it really the Government’s view that a driver viewing 12 carriage doors on a screen the size of an iPad can guarantee the safety of all passengers?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
First, if the noble Baroness provides me with the details of the wheelchair issue in the case that she raised specifically, I shall follow that up and come back with a direct answer. On some of the other issues that she raised, she is of course quite right—and I agree, as I have previously from the Dispatch Box—that the situation with Southern is unacceptable. I assure noble Lords that the new Secretary of State has made this issue and its resolution a priority. Indeed, the new Rail Minister is in front of the Transport Select Committee today, so there is a real baptism by fire for my colleague. It is a priority for the Secretary of State and the Rail Minister; the issue needs resolution.
On the issue of driver-only operated trains, as the noble Baroness is aware, it is not about making conductors redundant. It is about making them into train supervisors; they will continue to have a role in working with the driver of these trains, ensuring primarily the safety of all passengers.
Lord Snape (Lab)
Will the Minister bear in mind that the removal of safety responsibilities from the conductor makes it ever more likely that trains will be dispatched in the absence of the conductor on a driver-only basis? After the point that my noble friend Lady Smith made, could the Minister imagine the situation in which a train driven in such circumstances, perfectly legally as it so happens, stops at a de-manned station where somebody with a disability wishes to board or alight? There is no provision for any assistance in such circumstances.
There is one other point that the Minister should bear in mind about driver-only operations and trains stopping at de-manned stations without a supervisor on board. It is extremely uncomfortable for passengers travelling alone at night in such circumstances, particularly for women. There is surely enough evidence for the Government to intervene to ensure that our trains and our stations are properly staffed.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As I have already said, on the particular issue with Southern, driver-only operated trains will have supervisors. On disabled passengers, I fully recognise the issues and genuine concerns that have been raised. As noble Lords will be aware, for longer journeys or long-term planned journeys, disabled passengers can ring 24 hours in advance of their journey, but I fully accept that disabled passengers, like any of us, wish to turn up at a particular station at a particular time, board the train and then disembark from the train. The concerns the noble Lord has raised are part of the discussions we will continue to have. Let me assure noble Lords that I have put in place a proposal which I will be discussing with all noble Lords who have represented their concern, and the concerns of people they speak to or represent, that this issue cannot go on too long and that it is important for the Government to communicate regularly with your Lordships’ House on this important issue.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that London buses used to have their ramps broken by electric buggies that were far too heavy for them? At that time, there was a great campaign to ensure that buggy manufacturers would make them at a weight that could be tolerated by the buses. Does he know whether anything similar is issued by the railways to make clear the tolerance limits?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend makes an important point. London is a very good example of how industry providers, suppliers and operators have worked together. On the rail industry, there are good examples, which need to be replicated across the whole network.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, there is a real problem for disabled Southern passengers at the moment with the overcrowding, not least for those in wheelchairs who are unable to get on to trains and for ambulant passengers who may need access to the priority seats but cannot get there. What are the Government doing to ensure that Southern is making sure that all passengers are aware that passengers with disabilities may need particular help on overcrowded trains?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I agree with the noble Baroness. Southern needs to improve its communications and consultations and is not doing enough in that regard. If there are specific issues and cases, I am happy to take them up directly in the discussions my honourable friend is having. There is a wider issue. The company running the franchise needs to look at the services it is providing not just for disabled passengers. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, brought to my attention the appalling situation which arose in Brighton yesterday. Frankly, no Government or no train operator wishes to see it. We have to get on and try to fix it, and that is the intention. I hope that the franchise company and the unions can come together and resolve the issue which is impacting the service.
Baroness Corston (Lab)
My Lords, would the Minister be surprised to know that, with regard to Southern, the Department for Transport director Pete Wilkinson at a recent public meeting, talking about trade union members on Southern, said:
“We have got to break them. They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards. They can’t afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place”?
He went on to say that he wanted to drive trade unions “out of my industry”.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That may well be the view of that official. I do not know. I shall certainly look into that quote. Let me assure the House that the resolution of this problem requires everyone, all stakeholders—the company, the Government and the unions—to come together to resolve this issue. This has gone on for far too long. Such statements do not help in providing a solution to this long-running problem.
Lord Swinfen (Con)
My Lords, conductors normally get out of the train to make certain it is safe to close the doors before the train goes on. Will drivers be getting out of the train to perform that task?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I repeat to my noble friend what I have already said: the new driver-only operated trains do not mean that there will be staff redundancies. Those conductors will now become train supervisors and will continue to have a role not only in ensuring that passengers leave and embark on the train safely but in ensuring passenger safety across the whole train.