Great Western Main Line: Electrification

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their estimate of the final cost and timetable for completing the electrification of the Great Western Main Line.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, in the recent National Audit Office report, the total estimated cost of the Great Western route modernisation programme was £5.58 billion. The timetable for the remaining elements is due to be part of the planning process for Control Period 6. The Government welcome the Public Accounts Committee’s recommendation to reassess the case for electrification by section and fund schemes only where worthwhile benefits for passengers could not be achieved otherwise at lower cost.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I hear the Minister clearly. I believe he is telling us in clear terms that the Government do not intend to complete the electrification of the Great Western Railway to Swansea. If that is the case, please will he confirm that this afternoon?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thought I was pretty clear, but obviously not clear enough for the noble Baroness. I said that some parts of the electrification have been deferred to Control Period 6, as she is aware. The Government will review the spending on that to ensure the electrification on all remaining parts that have been deferred is in the interests of customers. The Cardiff to Swansea route that the noble Baroness specifically mentioned will be subject to the next control period—CP6.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, the electrification of the east coast main line route was completed in 1990. We are expecting a massive investment by Virgin Trains East Coast by 2020. At the moment, the line frequently fails. Does the noble Lord have a timetable and an idea of the investment that is required, and when Network Rail might carry out the investment required to ensure that the investment that Virgin Trains is making will be worth it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

We acknowledge the investment that rail companies are making in rail services across the board. As regards my noble friend’s specific question, she may well be aware that Sir Peter Hendy was appointed to Network Rail specifically to look at the rollout of the electrification programme, which prioritised certain key investments. The investments that are not made in CP5 will be part of the consideration for the next control period.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, coming back to GWR, the Minister will be aware that we in south-west Wales are very concerned about any decision, on infrastructure or otherwise, that might harm perceptions regarding the isolation of areas west of Cardiff. We were promised a fixed completion date to Swansea. Can he now undertake that he will try to expedite that and give a fixed completion date for rail electrification as far as Swansea?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of Swansea but I believe I have already addressed that. It will be considered as part of the CP6 expenditure. However, to put this into context, £2.8 billion is specifically allocated to the electrification of the Great Western line. We are talking about 170 bridges, 1,500 sets of foundations, 14,000 overhead lines, 1,500 pieces of signalling equipment and 17 tunnels. Notwithstanding that, the Government are making investments, as I am sure the noble Lord acknowledges. The rollout of new rolling stock, which will start to be applied to the line from the end of this year, will ensure better and more efficient customer service across the whole network.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

My Lords, the Great Western railway electrification scheme was designed in the Department for Transport; it was specified there and the trains were ordered there. However, the new trains and the new system will not provide a faster or better service than was the case 40 years ago, when I was general manager at Paddington. In future, will the Government look very carefully at whether there are better design and procurement methods to ensure that we get a scheme that delivers benefits to passengers and saves the taxpayer money?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I do not agree with the noble Lord’s premise. I believe that the new rolling stock that I referred to will bring passenger benefits. As I am sure he knows from his experience in and vast knowledge of the area, the IEP fleet, which is coming into service on the whole route, will run in both diesel and electric modes. That will provide flexibility in the delivery and appropriate scheduling of the electrification programme, which I accept is challenging.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, although any initiative that allows faster travel to Wales is to be welcomed, and we already have excellent road, rail and air links to south Wales, does the Minister agree that even greater commercial and cultural benefits might be gained by improving road and rail travel from north to south Wales?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with my noble friend. As I am sure she is aware, Wales will benefit to the tune of £2 billion from rail modernisation. For her information, together with the Welsh Government we have allocated a further £125 million to update the initiative around the Valley Lines.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that this project started off at £800 million and has now gone up to over £2 billion, £3 billion or maybe £4 billion, and that the same team responsible for the pricing has been pricing phase 1 of HS2? As he will know—I put it to him at the Committee stage of the HS2 Bill—those costs will now be, in my estimation, £54 billion and not £24 billion. Is it not about time that we got a grip on costs?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

We had several meetings away from this Chamber about the costs of HS2. As the noble Lord is fully aware, the experts who are working on the modelling and pricing of HS2 are meeting notable experts whom he himself put forward, and it will be interesting to await the outcome of that meeting.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, do the difficulties with electrification not show the benefits of building a new line such as HS2?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I could not agree more with my noble friend.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that, while it is vital that the electrification goes as far as Swansea and indeed beyond, there is an equally pressing case for electrification of the north Wales line through to Holyhead? Does he accept that that is important not only in respect of the local benefits from Crewe to Holyhead but in respect of the main line link through to Ireland, which has increasing importance in the wake of Brexit? What will the Government do to expedite that electrification?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises a specific issue away from the line in the Question. It is important to recognise that the Government’s approach is that, where it will be of benefit to the customer and the consumer, electrification will be prioritised, and the Hendy review reflects that very objective.

Transport Levying Bodies (Amendment) Regulations 2017

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2017 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Transport Levying Bodies (Amendment) Regulations 2017.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the draft regulations that we are considering today, if approved, would enable the combined authorities for Tees Valley and the West Midlands to collect appropriate levies from their constituent councils to meet the costs of carrying out their transport functions.

The five constituent councils of the Tees Valley Combined Authority—Darlington, Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland, and Stockton-on-Tees—and the seven constituent councils of the West Midlands Combined Authority—Birmingham, Coventry, Dudley, Sandwell, Solihull, Walsall and Wolverhampton—have led a local process to improve their governance arrangements, which culminated in this House and the other place agreeing orders that saw the establishment of the Tees Valley Combined Authority on 1 April 2016 and the West Midlands Combined Authority on 17 June 2016.

These orders gave effect to the desire of the local authorities in these areas to improve their joint working, including on transport matters. Orders have since been made to provide for mayors to be elected on 4 May for both the Tees Valley Combined Authority and the West Midlands Combined Authority, and once elected the mayor will be the chair of the combined authority. Combined authorities are designated as levying bodies under the Local Government Finance Act 1988. Under that Act, the Secretary of State is able to make regulations in relation to the expenses of combined authorities that are reasonably attributable to the exercise of its functions, including those relating to transport.

The draft regulations before the Committee today would amend the Transport Levying Bodies Regulations 1992 to take account of the creation of the two combined authorities in the Tees Valley and the West Midlands. They have been drafted to reflect the proposed approach of the local areas and have been agreed by the two combined authorities. The levy could fund any of the transport functions that sit with the combined authority in question. The functions of each combined authority are set out in its establishment order, and any subsequent order that confers functions and transport functions are clearly identified. Transport functions of the two combined authorities include developing a local transport plan, as well as a range of passenger transport related functions. It will be for the combined authority to decide how to fund these transport functions in accordance with the establishment order and any subsequent orders.

The constituent councils will need to consider how they fund any levy issued by the combined authority as part of their budget process, whether by council tax, government grants or other sources of revenue. They will need to take into account the impact of council tax levels in their area, including when determining whether any council tax increase is excessive.

In the case of the West Midlands, the regulations effectively constitute a name change. On the creation of the West Midlands Combined Authority, the West Midlands Integrated Transport Authority was dissolved and its functions were transferred to the combined authority. Like the ITA before it, the West Midlands Combined Authority will continue to levy its constituent authorities for transport purposes. It will also continue to apportion this levy by agreement, or on the basis of the population of the constituent councils.

The Tees Valley Combined Authority is different because there was no integrated transport authority in place in that area. Therefore, these draft regulations have to establish how any transport levy would be apportioned between the constituent councils if the combined authority could not reach agreement. In the event that they cannot agree, the combined authority will apportion the levy by taking into account previous levels of transport expenditure by the constituent councils.

These draft regulations help to facilitate the provision of transport arrangements as part of the wider governance changes across the two areas. I commend them to the Committee.

[Lord Adonis (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I strongly congratulate the Government on their move towards combined authorities and the development of the mayoral model, which will lead to the election of mayors in two months’ time. That will bring to fruition the extension of the very successful mayoral model in London to the other major conurbations. Just as it has led to a positive revolution in transport for London, I hope that it will bring about the same for the other conurbations. I know that the Minister has played a significant part in encouraging these developments.

There is, however, one issue on which I would like to hear more from the Minister: the relationship of this order, and the ability of the combined authority and mayors to raise money themselves, with the designated grant that the Government are giving to enhance spending on transport connections in some of the areas he mentioned. Yesterday, the Chancellor announced almost £400 million of funding for the Midlands engine. When I read the release, I was struck by how detailed and prescriptive the list of specific projects was that the Chancellor was seeking to fund—right down to specific sums of money for the Pershore relief road, smart ticketing technology and so on. Given that when he is elected in two months’ time the new mayor will come in with a big mandate and, one hopes, a significant plan for improving transport in the West Midlands, I wonder how far it will be open to him to decide his priorities and what he intends to do, or whether he is in fact bound by yesterday’s announcement by the Chancellor and the department to be simply the clerk who processes the list of projects. If he is not in a position to give me a specific answer, I would be very happy for the Minister to write to me on that.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my usual interests as listed in the register: I am an elected councillor, although not in these areas, and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. We are happy to support the regulations before us today. I do not have a huge amount to say and so do not intend to detain the Grand Committee. I am very happy to talk when I have something to say, but there is no point in doing so when I have only one or two points to make.

By way of background, I am conscious of where these regulations originated. Back in 2012, the Greater Manchester Combined Authority was able to issue levies to meet the cost of carrying out its transport functions. In 2015, a number of other integrated transport authorities were established and, again, they were able to issue levies through the measures in regulations. Therefore, we support these regulations for the new combined authorities of Tees Valley and the West Midlands. As we have heard, they will be electing their mayors in a matter of weeks. It is certainly correct that the authorities can levy their constituent councils to raise funds so that they can go ahead with their proposals. I understand that all the councils have been consulted and are very happy with what is before us today.

I am interested in the question my noble friend raised in respect of yesterday’s Budget announcement of what are very prescriptive projects in the West Midlands. What powers will the elected mayor have to vary those or do something different? Again, if the Minister cannot answer that today, I am happy to receive a letter in due course. With that, I am content to support the order before us.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Adonis and Lord Kennedy, for their support. In the general move towards devolution, I know that the model on transport, in particular, is close to the heart of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis.

We broadly agree that it is important for local areas to decide on priorities. To answer the noble Lord’s question generally, mayors come forward with their transport plans, and combined authority mayors will also be required to submit a draft budget to the combined authority for consideration. It is then for the combined authority to recommend any amendments to that budget. As he may be aware, specific criteria are set for each of the two authorities that I mentioned. In the West Midlands, for example, a majority of two-thirds is required, whereas three-fifths is required in Tees Valley. Combined authority mayors in both areas will also be able to set a precept to fund particular functions. The level of the precept is subject to the same combined authority challenge and amendment process as the mayor’s draft budget.

Turning to allocations, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, mentioned the Midlands engine and the Chancellor’s announcement today. Those are identified, existing priorities on specific transport functions. I will review the detail of the announcement and write to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, as he suggested, and advise other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. I thank noble Lords again for their broad support.

Motion agreed.

Drones

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in the last 12 months to address the challenges raised by the number of drones, particularly in relation to safety and security risks; and whether they intend to introduce legislation to regulate their use.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, a cross-government programme of work has made progress in a number of areas. This includes research to understand the risks to manned aviation; trials to explore options to detect and counter drones; meetings directly with manufacturers to improve technical solutions; and an expanded campaign to raise awareness of the safety rules. My noble friend will also be aware that, in December, a consultation on the safe use of drones in the UK was launched, which will inform the development of any future regulation.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the depth of that Answer. Nevertheless, it is well over a year since I asked a Question on this subject. Is my noble friend aware that, in the subsequent period, the threat of terrorism has heightened and the misuse of drones has heightened? I asked whether we had looked at the laws passed in the United States and in Ireland, both of which have been successful. Are we sure now that we can get a grip on the manufacturers, and those who produce kit products, wherever they are sold, to produce strict laws that the consumer can understand and then can be enforced?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend raises an important point. We are all acutely aware of the growing challenges of terrorism to our country and the threat around the world. In this regard, I reassure my noble friend that the Government are fully aware and cognisant of the measures that have been taken, as he rightly listed, in places such as the US and Ireland. Our consultation, as I am sure he has seen from the detail, has been informed by their experience. That consultation closes in March and, at that point, we will look at what further regulations can be implemented.

My noble friend will also be aware that part of the challenge has been about informing the general public about the existing laws, which restrict and encourage the responsible use of drones. We are fully cognisant of the technology advancements in this area, so it is important that before legislating we look at what is happening elsewhere—but also at the consultation results as well.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I believe that the Government’s consultation document is 58 pages long. It covers a wide range of issues relating to drones and is not just about safety and security. We cannot wait months while the Government consider their response to all the many questions posed in the consultation document about drones before decisions are made on what changes are needed to the safety and security laws and procedures. Will the Government give a clear and unambiguous assurance today that the issue of safety and security and the responses received on the issue will be treated as the number one priority for conclusions to be reached, and that decisions will be announced following the conclusion of the consultation in the middle of this month—and dealing with the safety and security issue will not have to wait until the Government have reached their conclusions and made their decisions on all the other issues relating to drones raised in the consultation document?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, just to correct the noble Lord, I am sure that he meant “next month”. I was just checking dates—and I know that there was a late ending yesterday. Towards the middle of March we will, as I said, be concluding the consultation. He has asked me before about timelines; we are looking to produce our consultation results, including the important areas that he mentioned—and yes, the Government have prioritised those areas. The consultation looks comprehensively at those issues and the positive use of drones, and we will look to produce our conclusions from that consultation in the summer of this year.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that I was one of the first to draw attention to the risk of collisions between drones and airliners. Do the Government have at least a contingency plan for total exclusion zones for drones around the incoming and outgoing flight paths of major airports?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important point about safety around airports. We are looking much more extensively at the issues of geo-fencing around critical sites such as airports. Nevertheless, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware, there were 70 reported incidents in 2016 and that was 70 too many. It is important that, as technology advances, we look at more rapid and rigid enforcement of geo-fencing.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, there were indeed 70 incidents, 25 of which were at Heathrow. The Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill has just been introduced in the House of Commons. This seems the perfect place to add legislation and rules in this area. At the moment the Bill includes lasers, but it does not include drones. Will the Minister undertake that, when the Bill comes to this House, the Government will put forward suitable amendments to include drones?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Of course we will have a discussion about the important issue of lasers. The noble Lord is quite right to point out that that is included in the Bill that he mentioned. I am not going to prejudge what conclusions are reached in the other place—or indeed in this place—regarding what legislative vehicle will be used for the purposes of drones. It is important that we look at the full review of the consultation taking place in the middle of next month and then consider its results in the summer of this year.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, the Government may be cognisant of all the drone problems, but are the prison authorities cognisant of them? Are the reports that a lot of drugs are delivered into Her Majesty’s prisons by drones not correct? Surely steps should be taken to stop that before anything else.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend is right to raise this important issue. Let me assure him that new laws have been implemented and measures taken to deal with the problem of the delivery of drugs into prisons. Equally, let me reassure my noble friend that I am talking to Ministers across both the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice. We will be convening a meeting with manufacturers, either next month or in April, to talk directly about the importance of ensuring that all safety and security aspects are covered.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will recall a debate before Christmas in which his attention was drawn to the availability of drone-jamming signal equipment which could be used to an operational distance of 2,000 feet. It would be avoided by drone users because they would be likely to lose their drones. Why cannot we order and use this equipment to cover our airports?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right: he pointed out that specific issue, which I have taken up directly with officials. I would ask him also to take part in the consultation. We will be raising his specific point directly with manufacturers.

[Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as president of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association and the holder of a current commercial pilot’s licence. I flew myself down here—safely—today. There is an answer in relation to controlled airspace around Heathrow and Gatwick. When nobody can go into controlled airspace without authority, surely a quick answer is to prohibit any drones in that area?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord obviously speaks from experience in this area. He will be aware that the CAA has a specific regime around the commercial operation of drones. We are looking at these particular regulations to see how they may be extended. As I said, we have a wide-ranging consultation and we wish to wait for the results of that.

HS2: North of England and Scotland

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 23rd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure that HS2 will maximise links between cities in the north of England and with Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, HS2 will have a transformational effect on journey times between cities in the north of England and with Scotland. To build on the opportunities HS2 provides, northern powerhouse rail is being planned to spread connectivity across the north of England. In addition, the Department for Transport is working closely with Transport Scotland to study all options with strong business cases to further improve capacity, reliability, resilience and journey times between Scotland and northern England.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and acknowledge the good work being done by various organisations, not least Transport for the North. But I should like to address a specific issue about HS2 and the eastern leg, which as currently planned fails to link Newcastle with Leeds. In addition, Newcastle is the terminus for the HS2 rolling stock on the eastern leg and, as it is the terminus, all passengers on it will have to change trains to travel further north towards Scotland. Would it not be better to have HS2 on the eastern leg linking our cities properly in an integrated fashion that links rail with our cities?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important point about connectivity. In my initial Answer I referred to the important work that was being done by northern powerhouse rail. In that regard, let me assure him that a single strategy is being worked out with northern powerhouse rail, the DfT, Network Rail and HS2 to produce a single strategy—not shortly, but by the end of 2017. That will include all major cities in the north, including Liverpool, Manchester, Hull, Newcastle, Leeds and Sheffield to ensure greater connectivity in that regard.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

On what basis is the Minister saying that services from Scotland and the real north of England—shall we say Carlisle?—will actually be speedier? Is it not true that the HS2 rolling stock cannot run on conventional rails, and that the service after HS2 north of Manchester and Leeds to London will actually be slower than it is now?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On faster services from London to Scotland—and that includes to the cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh—once the second phase of HS2 is complete, we are talking of journey times of three hours and 40 minutes. The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of infrastructure, particularly in terms of the tracks themselves running in the northern part to Scotland. We are working with northern powerhouse rail, to which I alluded earlier, and indeed Transport Scotland to see what further work can be done to reduce journey times. The aspiration, of course, is to reduce the journey time to below three hours.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

Why have the Government delayed introducing a Bill to extend the track to the north-west?

[Lord Watts]

And Scotland.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I do not think that this is about delays. I am sure that the noble Lord heard the Lord Speaker announce the fact that today we received Royal Assent for the first part of HS2. It is important that work gets under way in that regard and we will bring forward legislation on phases 2A and 2B of Network Rail later this year, I hope.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, currently there is an excellent two-hour direct service at 125 miles an hour between London and the city of Chester. Will being able to get to Manchester—wherever Manchester is—in an hour call into question the current excellent direct service between London and Chester?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I believe that Manchester will stay where it is. I look to my noble friend Lady Williams on my right, who knows Manchester very well. This is about being quicker and about improving capacity and connectivity. The building of HS2, along with the plans that are under way with northern powerhouse rail, will address both issues, which is extremely important for people not just in the south and the Midlands, but to the north and indeed for Scotland as well.

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

My Lords, further to the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in what year will HS2 or its extension reach Newcastle, and how old will my noble friend be?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Crystal ball gazing is not my expertise, but it is important that this is a phased project. It is right to look at building the first phase of this project. I am being advised by certain noble friends that I should say “shortly”. Perhaps I will not go to that extent, but I have already indicated that northern powerhouse rail, together with DfT, Network Rail and HS2 are already undertaking work, and we will produce a report towards the end of 2017 that will underline the importance of this connectivity.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, can I ask when the final route plans for HS3—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, can I ask when the final route plans for HS3 will be published, and when the hybrid Bill for the next stages of HS2 to Crewe, Manchester and Leeds will be published? I hope that the Minister will be able to answer that question, but of course if he cannot he could always say “shortly”.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I will be the first to say that perhaps we are overusing the word “shortly” in this regard. On the first part of the noble Lord’s question, about links between the great cities of the north, I have already indicated that a report on a single integrated strategy will be produced by the end of 2017. We hope that the Bill for the next phase of HS2 will be introduced later this year, as I have also already indicated. Once I have a specific date, I will of course share it with your Lordships’ House.

Cycling: Women

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, with the permission of the House I beg leave to move the Question standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. He has been delayed returning from the Scilly Isles. Some people will do anything to avoid the Brexit debate.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure I speak for all noble Lords in wishing him a speedy return. This Government are committed to increasing participation in cycling and to making it the natural choice for short journeys or as part of a longer trip. We reaffirmed our commitment to cycling and walking by committing in the 2015 spending review over £300 million for cycling over the five years of the spending review period. This investment supports initiatives that will encourage more women to get cycling, such as the provision of new cycle infrastructure and training.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that the Government could do a bit more? Given the number of recent deaths of women cyclists in London, there is still fear and concern among women. Does the Minister agree that supporting local groups which encourage women to cycle would be a good start in helping to increase the number of women cyclists? I should have declared an interest as secretary of the All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group and a regular cyclist. After all, every new cyclist on the road, if they usually drive a diesel car, would be a double bonus.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I of course acknowledge the noble Lord’s enthusiasm for cycling—and, indeed, his professionalism. As I was leaving the House yesterday, I noticed the noble Lord in his fluorescent jacket and attire. He is quite right: there is always more to be done to encourage cycling, and the Government have invested a great deal in encouraging local schemes. The noble Lord will also be aware that we are shortly to publish our new cycling and walking infrastructure investment strategy, which will underline support for local initiatives such as the noble Lord has mentioned.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, as a former chairman of the All-Party Cycling Group, I welcome the increase in cycling which is evident on our streets—both men and women. Does my noble friend agree that an increase in cycling can play its part—only a part—in reducing not just congestion but the frightful air pollution in our cities?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with my noble friend that encouraging the greater use of any form of sustainable transport is a positive way of tackling air quality issues. The Government have worked hand in glove with both the previous mayor and current mayor here in the city of London on initiatives to encourage cycling.

[Baroness Corston (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

Thank you. Women cyclists are proportionately more likely to be injured or killed than men. The overwhelming majority of cycling accidents and fatalities involve vehicles, disproportionately lorries. What action are the Government taking to ensure that the latest and most effective safety features are adopted for all lorries on our roads and not just the newest ones?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness is right to raise the issue of such fatalities, of which there were 100 in 2015. The figures show that lorries account for some 5% of transport on British roads, but they account for about 19% of fatalities. She will be pleased to hear that the Government have encouraged the use of all the latest technology. From 1 July last year, new lorries now incorporate the new safety mirrors which give an extended rear view of any cyclist approaching from either side.

[Baroness Corston]

My Lords, as someone who used to represent the city of Bristol in the other place, I commend to the Minister the work of Sustrans, which 25 years ago was promoting, particularly in schools, safe cycle routes and cycling all over the country. What support do the Government give to Sustrans?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I can assure the noble Baroness that I know the work of Sustrans. When I was a councillor in Wimbledon, as part of my brief as the cabinet member for environment, I and others undertook a safer cycling programme in Wimbledon Park with Sustrans. The Government continue to invest in safer cycling, particularly for children. As the noble Baroness will be aware, we are investing over £50 million in the Bikeability schemes, which will ensure safer and more secure cycling for over 1.3 million children.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that a major obstacle to safe cycling on many of our roads is the very poor quality of road surfaces and the large number of potholes? In my own experience as a regular cyclist in the city of Oxford, one spends a good deal of time dodging potholes, and therefore exposing oneself to greater risk from traffic accidents. If he does agree, can he do anything to encourage local authorities, when they invest in road repairs, to prioritise improving the surfaces for cyclists?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord will be aware that the Government have committed to extra funding to deal with potholes. He mentioned the city of Oxford, which is benefiting from extra funding as a Cycle City Ambition city, along with Birmingham, Bristol, Newcastle, Cambridge, Leeds, Manchester and Norwich. The funding in Cycle City Ambition cities amounts to £10 per head, which is a substantial increase on the £2 per head figure in 2010, and a major step forward from the £6 per head we see elsewhere in the country.

[Baroness Sharples (Con)]

My Lords, a few years ago, I had a bicycle with very small wheels and I was allowed to ride on the pavement. Does that still apply?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am not sure whether my noble friend still has her bicycle and is asking whether she will still be allowed. I am sure we all welcome her cycling aspirations, be it on a cycle with large or small wheels. There is still a law on the statute which prevents cycling on pavements, and there are some important aspects to this. Of course, when that law was enacted, cycling was not as widespread as it is today. An increasing number of children are cycling and if that law were applied in full, even they would perhaps be penalised. I am sure that no one in your Lordships’ House would want to see that.

Brexit: Transport

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for this opportunity to discuss the important issue of the UK’s exit from the European Union and related transport matters. I am also grateful for the chance to respond to the points raised during this debate, and if there are questions that I am unable to answer within the time limits I shall write to noble Lords about them.

First I will address the general points raised. It is the Government’s very strong view that, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister herself articulated in her speech of 17 January, we should be “a truly global Britain”. What does this mean? As she explained, it means a “stronger, fairer, more united” country, one that is outward-looking, open for business and a magnet for international talent. It will be,

“an ambitious country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike”.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, made the role of the single market quite clear. He is right: as the Prime Minister has made clear, Britain will not be a member of the single market. As EU leaders have themselves made clear—it was also a point made by two noble Lords during the debate—staying in the single market would mean accepting the four freedoms and a role for the European Court of Justice. In the Prime Minister’s words:

“It would to all intents and purposes mean not leaving the EU at all”.


The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in the various questions he raised, asked about the priorities, and I agree with him that transport is vital in realising this vision of a global Britain. These principles will inform our approach for transport in the negotiations ahead.

There have been a number of points about how different modes of transport will be affected by Brexit. As we all acknowledge, transport providers move huge numbers of passengers by air, road, rail and sea, and our logistics providers ensure that vital goods are moved efficiently. Let me be clear: we want them to continue doing that with minimum hindrance. Of course, I acknowledge that when we leave the European Union our relationship will be different. As the Prime Minister has explained, when we leave the EU we will leave the internal market. Our focus as we discuss our future relationship with our EU partners will therefore be on finding sensible ways to allow transport operations to continue. I am sure that noble Lords will accept that it is too soon to say precisely what those arrangements will look like, but I believe that all citizens and businesses in Europe have a shared interest in finding arrangements that work for us here in the United Kingdom and for the remaining members of the European Union.

I will address the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, in his contribution on the White Paper and its specifics on different modes of transport. He acknowledged that air and road haulage are mentioned, but he should not infer from that that other modes have been forgotten, namely sea and rail transport. We are making thorough preparations for negotiations covering all modes. As I have said to noble Lords during Questions, we continue to meet practitioners and industry representatives across all modes of transport to ensure that their priorities are reflected in the negotiations with our European partners.

If I may address this issue sector by sector, I will start with my own portfolio as Minister for Aviation. The UK aviation industry is of course world leading. As noble Lords have acknowledged, our airports service the third-largest aviation market in the world and the largest in Europe. Demand for flights continues to grow and UK airlines have seized opportunities globally, including those offered through European aviation markets. The Prime Minister made it clear, as did last week’s White Paper, that we will seek new strategic partnerships with the European Union, including wide-reaching, bold and ambitious free trade agreements. Aviation should be a part of that, so that citizens in the UK and the EU can continue to access air travel as they do now.

I assure your Lordships that the Government are working closely with the aviation industry to ensure we understand its priorities and needs as we start discussions with the EU. I have attended very constructive, pragmatic and positive meetings with representatives from across the aviation industry, along with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, David Davis. We stressed the point then that our air connections with Europe are important, but we also have an opportunity to widen our horizons. Leaving the European Union gives us more freedom to make our own aviation agreements with countries beyond Europe. Last year, after my appointment as Aviation Minister, I signed a deal with China that will more than double the number of flights operated between our two countries, boosting trade and tourism.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked within the aviation context about the importance of the European Aviation Safety Agency, or EASA. As she will be aware, the UK has played a pivotal and active role in developing air safety standards. Our expertise is valued and recognised. We therefore hope and expect that all sides will value our continued participation—a sentiment which my noble friend Lord Patten reflected in his contribution.

Britain is open for business and open to the rest of the world. The connectivity provided by aviation is essential to making this happen. Whether it is new agreements such as that with China, our support for a third runway at Heathrow or the new aviation strategy, we will do what is necessary to support our future prosperity and growth. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, that this includes ensuring the prioritising and protection of jobs. He mentioned the example of Airbus, a corporation which we continue to work with not just in the UK but across Europe to ensure its presence on the global market.

If I may turn to road haulage, I mentioned the importance of the logistics industry in my opening comments. We are of course very much dependent on road hauliers. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, makes sure that we are fully aware of the importance of road haulage across many areas when we discuss it in this House. It should not be understated as, without those hauliers, our shops would be empty and our industry would grind to a halt. The logistics industry plays an important role by doing a first-class job in transporting goods to where they need to go.

The vast majority of lorries on our roads undertake domestic deliveries and never leave the country, yet a number make international journeys. Over 80% of these lorries are owned by European firms, not UK ones. Both the UK and the EU will want sensible arrangements in the future that allow goods to flow freely from and to the UK. I also want to ensure that UK hauliers have fair opportunities to win international business. I assure your Lordships that we are working hard on this objective as we prepare for negotiations.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, raised the important issue of lorries and strict controls on road safety, as did the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, on the particular issue that he raised about the A55. I assure both noble Lords and the House that, as the Government have stated before, the great repeal Bill will act as the basis for ensuring that all EU legislation is transposed into UK legislation. The transition will ensure that those kinds of safety regulations are sustained and maintained.

The maritime sector has been operating successfully for many centuries, as many noble Lords noted, trading freely between ports across the world long before the European Union came into being. There is no reason why that will not continue after we leave. The UK has always been a leading maritime nation, and we will continue to build on this, taking a higher profile in the International Maritime Organization. Of course, as noble Lords will know, that is based in London. We will be facilitating international maritime trade, helping attract more maritime business to the UK and promoting the UK flag. The Government and industry have been working together to identify a shared goal of continued growth over the coming year and beyond. Given our exit from the EU, we will drive forward this work through the maritime growth study.

I turn briefly to railways. The creation of the EU internal market for rail services has been slower than for other modes, but the past 20 years have seen the opening up of international services. The British railway network is essentially a domestic network, so the effects of leaving the EU will be limited. However, we of course have one international connection with continental Europe—the Channel Tunnel. Let us not forget the Belfast-to-Dublin link too. We will focus on ensuring that these services can continue as now. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that we will ensure that, in everyone’s interest.

Across the transport sector we are determined to agree the best arrangements for Britain. The Government will continue to listen to our transport industries as their views develop. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, raised the issue of rail franchising. We will not want to limit EU bidders in bidding for franchises. That will be part of the message to ensure that we are truly open for business.

We have world-class expertise in this country across many sectors, as my noble friend Lord Patten noted—in the automotive sector, in aerospace, in logistics, in transport engineering and much more. We must be confident in offering this to the world. We have every reason to be confident. Anyone who has seen the work on Crossrail—and I am proud to be the Minister for Crossrail—in this city will know that this country is capable of world-class engineering. It is recognised internationally. Country delegations visiting the UK want to see what Crossrail is all about.

Our departure from the EU is an unprecedented opportunity to shape our future. We must take advantage of all the opportunities it offers. We will get out into the world and do business right across the globe. Yes, I say to the noble Baroness, it is a bold and ambitious vision. The message we take to the world is this: the UK remains open for business. We are the same positive, pragmatic, outward-looking, globally minded nation we always were. We will continue to strengthen our role and our international partnerships on the global stage.

High Speed Rail (London–West Midlands) Bill

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 31st January 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That the Bill do now pass.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, at the final stage of this important Bill in this House, I take this opportunity to thank all noble Lords who have contributed to its passage, and without whose efforts we would not have been able to make such excellent progress. I thank my noble friends Lord Younger and Lady Buscombe for their diligent work in assisting me during the Bill’s passage. I greatly appreciate their support.

On behalf of the House—indeed, I believe I share the sentiments expressed by all Members across the House—I thank the Select Committee, which was so ably chaired by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe. His resolute, compassionate and pragmatic approach in handling the business before him was impeccable and held in high admiration by petitioners, by the Government as the promoter of the Bill, and by his fellow committee members.

I also thank other members of the Select Committee for all their efforts and hard work. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, for her contributions, particularly in Committee and on Report; the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green; my noble friends Lord Brabazon of Tara and Lord Freeman; and the noble Lords, Lord Elder, and Lord Jones of Cheltenham. The committee served diligently for eight months, hearing over 300 petitioners, and made extremely valuable interventions both in Committee and on Report. I also thank noble Lords from the Opposition Benches. I have sat with the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in sessions both in and outside your Lordships’ House, trying to address issues on which we did not quite agree. I thank him, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—who unfortunately is not in her place—for their helpful interventions and the co-operative and positive approach they adopted in resolving any final differences that remained on the Bill.

I also thank all other noble Lords who have contributed to debates on the Bill and helped the Government make valuable improvements. It would be remiss of me not to make special mention of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. Some things are originated by one Government and then handed over to another. I am sure the noble Lord will reflect with satisfaction on the fact that this baton has been passed on successfully. What now remains is the important work of getting HS2 built, and I thank him for his efforts. Outside this Chamber, I thank the officials at the Department for Transport and HS2 Ltd, some of whom have been working for over five years on the preparation and passage of this hugely complex Bill, for their dedicated and conscientious efforts. I also thank our parliamentary agents, our counsel team and my private office for their help and advice in preparing the Bill and during the Select Committee phase.

Amendment to the Motion

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Although the amendment is listed as changing one word, it would in fact change just one letter; it would substitute “t” for “w” in the word “now”. In so doing, it seeks to consign HS2 to the dustbin.

HS2 was initiated by a Labour Government and was taken forward first by the coalition Government and then, following the general election, by the present Government. There is clearly a mandate to proceed. The Bill has been debated and considered both in this House and in the Commons and has been the subject of detailed consideration by Select Committees of both Houses. I hope that the Government will look favourably on the outstanding compensation issues that have still to be determined.

The Companion to the Standing Orders indicates that, on an amendment of this nature at this stage:

“Any remarks should be brief and should not seek to reopen debates at previous stages of the bill”.


Consequently, my remarks will be brief. First, I thank the Minister, his ministerial colleagues and the Bill team for the way in which they have dealt with the debates as the Bill has progressed through this House and for the full responses that they have sought to give to issues that have been raised both in the House and at meetings. I also thank my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe for his most welcome and much-appreciated advice and guidance and Hannah Lazell in our office for the considerable work that she has put into the Bill, which has been of such help to me. Finally, I thank the members of your Lordships’ Select Committee, who considered the Bill in detail over some months, for their invaluable and painstaking work.

The amendment is fatal and hardly appropriate for the unelected House to pass, even more so when the Bill has already been passed in the Commons by, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said, an overwhelming majority of over 350. HS2 will bring a major and much- needed addition to this country’s transport infrastructure, including relieving the increasing pressure on the west coast main line—an issue that has to be addressed and cannot just be ignored and waved away. The pros and cons of HS2 have been considered and debated for a number of years. Inevitably, there will be some who will never feel able to agree to it, but the time has now come to make a decision. That decision must be to proceed. We can do that now by ensuring that the amendment, if put to a vote, is defeated and that the substantive Motion that this Bill do now pass is agreed.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. I recognise the strength of feeling expressed by my noble friend in raising this issue. Indeed, I met him again only yesterday to see whether we could allay some of his concerns. I do not share the experience that he cited of the passage of the Bill in your Lordships’ House; I am sure that most noble Lords across the House share my sentiment. Several noble Lords have rightly, at various stages of the Bill’s passage, challenged aspects of cost and detail, but—I look across the House to the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Bradshaw—they made it clear that, while challenging key aspects of the construction of HS2, they did so with the understanding and absolute assurance that they were committed to the project.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, clearly articulated the benefits of HS2 and I thank him for putting the whole project into context and correcting some of the history of railways in our great country. He talked about the time pre-1838, before Queen Victoria’s coronation. I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord West, is no longer in his place, but I am sure that he made a particular note of that.

My noble friend Lord Framlingham rightly raised the issue of costs and the control of costs. It is right that your Lordships’ House challenges the basic element of costs. However, given the recent experiences of infrastructure projects and the intense debates, discussions and scrutiny in Select Committees of both Houses on the Bill, it was very clear that that issue would be addressed. Noble Lords from across the House quoted the positive nature of projects such as Crossrail that are running to time and budget. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, talked about the brave new world in which our country finds itself. It is projects such as Crossrail that we are taking to the world to showcase the best of British engineering, supply chains and apprenticeships. I believe earnestly that HS2 provides opportunities of this magnitude. For example, the training facilities associated with the skills element of the HS2 project are an important legacy of any infrastructure project.

I assure my noble friend again that the scrutiny of costs will not only be internal. As I am sure he is aware, the Commons Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office have already produced several reports on the costs of HS2, which are publicly available. These bodies will continue to examine the cost of HS2 as we move forward and as more detailed costs on the project become available.

I am mindful not to detain your Lordships’ House longer than necessary. It is important that this project is supported across your Lordships’ House, as it is in the other place. My noble friend Lord Framlingham raised the issue of the CBI and the BCC. They are fully supportive of HS2 and have gone on record to say that the additional capacity it will create is vital.

We have debated, discussed and scrutinised this Bill and this project in the true traditions of parliamentary democracy. In closing I again pay tribute to the incredible work that the Select Committees of both Houses have done. My noble friend has been a Member of both Houses and is testament to the incredible work that Select Committees do in scrutinising petitions to ensure that, whoever the petitioner is, their voice is heard, considered and validated. If valid concerns are raised, Bills and projects can be amended—and the same is true of HS2. If you look at the course of the Bill and its progress through your Lordships’ House—I commend the Select Committee analysis of the various petitions—you will see the detailed scrutiny, analysis and recommendations of your Lordships’ Select Committee, all of which the Government have accepted. As I said, there were differences of opinion and we have sought to resolve them. I thank all noble Lords who worked on a constructive basis in that sense.

As I said to my noble friend, both in your Lordships’ House and in other meetings we have held, I appreciate that he has been consistent in his position in opposing this project. However, we have addressed and scrutinised this issue and the project and we have put in place the checks and balances necessary to ensure that the cost implications of the project have been fully considered and will continue to be so. I implore my noble friend, even at this late stage, to consider carefully the responses I have given and the valid processes, checks and balances that we have put in place. As we have heard, this project is not only necessary for investment in our railways but is important to ensure connectivity, capacity and that our country is truly a 21st century country on the world stage.

My noble friend has made his consistent position absolutely clear. He knows that I have respected his position throughout the process, as I assured him again yesterday. However, when he reflects on the debate this afternoon, the other debates and scrutiny that have taken place and the assurances that the Government have given, I hope he will be minded to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his words. He has been diligent and gracious throughout. He asks me to reflect on my words and my actions today. I have done little else for quite a few days now and I would not have done what I have done unless I really believed it was the right thing to do—for me, for this House and for the country.

I hope that noble Lords in the House will be sure, when they leave the House, go outside and talk to other people, that they have done the right thing today. This is going to last for at least 10 years. I do not want to rehearse all of the arguments again, because I can pretty well tell when the House has had enough, and I am not going to refute all the arguments—although I could. I understand why other people want to put their points of view, and I am grateful to the Minister and particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, for supporting me so well and being very much a kindred spirit in this. There are more of us around than I think anybody really appreciates. I say to the House, with all sincerity, that I have heard nothing this afternoon that makes me change my view that the HS2 project is fatally flawed and should not be given the blessing of your Lordships’ House. I want to test the opinion of the House. I beg to move.

Southern Rail

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to nationalise the Southern railway franchise.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, there are no plans to strip Govia Thameslink Railway of its franchise. The speculation in the media is just that: speculation. DfT of course continues to monitor the operational and contractual performance of all franchises.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, but there was a lot of press speculation last week that Ministers were considering taking direct control of rail franchises, including Southern rail. I cite the Guardian:

“Options ranging from splitting off Southern from Govia … to a complete ‘managed exit’ to take direct control of the entire franchise”.


It might be odd that none of that came from anywhere near government. I am pleased that the Minister is saying that there is no plan to nationalise, because on the same day the Secretary of State repeated that there is no better alternative to GTR—I hope that noble Lords would agree with that. Of course, three years ago, the Government got rid of the nationalised east coast main line franchise, because Sir Patrick McLoughlin, the then Secretary of State, said:

“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company”.—[Official Report, Commons, 27/6/13; col 449.]


I hope that in his response the Minister can clarify what the Government’s policy is.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord has perhaps answered his own question. He cited two sources: one was the Guardian, and the other was my right honourable friend, the then Secretary of State. I would rely on the response of my right honourable friend.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, would the nationalisation of the franchise really make much difference? Does not the current government control mechanism and the performance measures that they have in place for the Southern franchise suggest that they are already running it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I do not agree with the noble Lord. There is a particular mechanism in place by which the Government can hold GTR to account on performance. We are doing just that, but it applies across the rail network.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

If Her Majesty’s Government are monitoring all the franchises, I draw my noble friend’s attention to the performance of the Great Northern over the past three years, where the timekeeping has got considerably worse from when it started out. Should not Her Majesty’s Government be doing something to ensure that all the train companies stick to the contracts that they were given?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with my noble friend, and that is why my department monitors the operational and contractual performances of all franchises. If a franchisee does not meet its contractual commitments, the Secretary of State will make a decision on next steps.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

What benefits have current Southern rail passengers gained from a private operator running their railway service under the present franchise agreement, in view of the extent of the widely recognised poor performance from that train operator over the past two years not related to industrial action?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

We are acutely aware of the challenges which everyone who uses that franchise currently faces. The noble Lord tries to distinguish the effect of the industrial dispute, which, as I have always said from this Dispatch Box, has compounded the challenges that Network Rail is facing. The Government have committed an extra £300 million to investment on the Brighton main line. Let us contextualise the industrial dispute, as I have done before. RMT is out on dispute on a new contract. Every train supervisor, as they are now called, has signed that contract—every one; not one is exempted. They are working on the new contract. There are no job losses on the new contract. There is no pay cut on the new contract. What is more, they are guaranteed a job until 2021—even I cannot lay claim to that.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

Has the Minister seen the promotional poster for Southern railways, the strapline for which is, “Stay longer, see more”? Is that where we have been going wrong—we have not understood its mission statement?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I have to declare that I have not seen that particular poster, but I am sure that the company will look at its mission statement quite carefully to ensure that it delivers what it seeks to do.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Considering the question asked earlier, will my noble friend identify how many working days in this country have been lost over the last six months, and what proportion of those working days arise from disputes with the RMT on one line or another, including in Greater London, where the Mayor said that there would be no disputes?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend is right to raise the important issue of days lost. On the Southern dispute, 27 days have been lost and we are looking at a cost of circa £38 million. My noble friend asked specifically about the ongoing dispute in London with RMT, which we hope will be resolved shortly. I do not have the particular figures to hand but I will write to him in that respect.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, bearing in mind the fact that Southern trains operates with a management contract set out by the Government, operates trains specified by the Government for driver-only operation, and that its own director of financing said at a public meeting only last year that, on DOO, 2016 was the year that the department would break the unions, what is the difference between the situation with Southern and a nationalised industry anyway?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

What is happening on Southern, as I have said before, is that various issues have come to the fore. Yes, there is non-performance on the part of GTR, and it is seeking to address those matters. The Government are holding it to account, but the continued industrial dispute on that network compounds the challenges that commuters—passengers— face, and it is about time that industrial dispute came to an end.

Railways: Fares

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House and on behalf of my noble friend Lady Randerson, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the annual increase of regulated rail fares is set using the retail prices index figure published for July. This is consistent with the approach adopted across the rail industry. The UK Statistics Authority concluded in 2015 a consultation and review of UK consumer prices statistics. The review recommended moving towards ending the use of the RPI. The Government will await the UK Statistics Authority response before considering further changes to the current mechanisms.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I thank the Minister. In waiting for that response, will the Government consider whether it is right to have a universal increase in fares across all services, regardless of the quality of service for passengers? In particular, it seems to me that London commuters, especially those from south of the river, are facing a situation where the Government are using RPI automatically to increase fares on Southern, regardless of the quality of service being offered.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I have already said, we will certainly look at the findings and will then make an appropriate decision. The noble Lord raises the important point about fare increases, which I know impacts many in your Lordships’ House and many beyond. However, as he will be aware, regulated fare increases are capped at RPI plus 0% for the term of Parliament until 2020.

--- Later in debate ---

[Noble Lords]

Highest.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I think that I follow the thread of my noble friend’s remarks. I agree with him about the importance of giving certainty to those who are affected. We are adhering to the position that the Government have taken, which was a manifesto pledge.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, as recently as 2008, 50% of train fares in the United Kingdom were met from the Treasury, and the same proportion was paid for by the train traveller? As that percentage has now been skewed to 27% by the Treasury and the remainder by the traveller, does that not have some impact on the mechanism for fare increases on an annual basis?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Again, the noble Lord raises an important point. If we were to put figures to that, there is about £4.8 billion in government subsidy. He is quite right that the rest comes from rail revenue, which is about £9.8 billion. It is important that there has been a review of the current process; we should await the outcome of that consultation and the Government will then take any necessary decision at that time.

[Lord Dholakia (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that passengers are now using consumer laws to gain refunds from their credit and debit card providers? This is a very worrying practice. Will the Minister issue a clear instruction to Southern that this is its obligation? It should be met and the situation ought to be monitored.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right to raise the important issue of compensation for Southern passengers. The Government are acutely aware of the challenges on that network, as many from across your Lordships’ House have also made clear to me during our debates on this issue. As the noble Lord will be aware, we have issued additional compensation schemes but we continue to work with and monitor Southern, and to hold it to account for any issues which arise. If the noble Lord has specific matters or a particular case to raise, I ask him to please write to me.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Why do the Government keep claiming that the regulated fare increases are needed to fund the investment programme in the railways, when the increase in fares paid by rail passengers is really intended to achieve a continuing reduction in government subsidy, and a continuing increase in the percentage of rail costs that are paid for by hard-pressed fare-paying passengers to well beyond that in nearly every other country?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Again, what the Government have done was made clear in the run-up to and during campaigning in the last general election: that what rail users need when it comes to fares policy is certainty. That is why we gave a commitment to have RPI plus 0%, and we are staying true to that pledge.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Has the Minister noticed that the Scottish Government are doing exactly the same as the United Kingdom Government on rail fare increases, proving yet again beyond peradventure that they are still Tartan Tories?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord always brings a particular viewpoint to our debates here and he has done so again. It is a matter for the Scottish National Party to determine its ideology. However, if it is being won over by the positive agenda of the Conservative Government then I welcome that.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is essential to have an RPI formula in order that the train operating companies do not have to try to forecast where inflation might be in several years’ time?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend is right to raise this issue. The basis we currently use, as I have been clear, is RPI. It is important to provide certainty to the market not just for people using the services but, as he points out, for rail companies as well. As I have said, once we see the result of the consultation we will look at this.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend explain why we are using the RPI rather than the CPI, as RPI is no longer an official statistic? Pensioner incomes are tied to the consumer prices index rather than the retail price index, yet hard-pressed consumers are having to pay an RPI increase.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend speaks from great expertise, particularly on pensions, and she is right to raise the concern expressed by the travelling public. But I say to her that RPI is consistent with the general indexation approach currently used across all aspects of the rail industry, including franchise payments, network grants and franchise financial models. As she will be aware, those are all indexed at RPI. I have already alluded to the study; let us await the outcome and we will then see how we progress on the way forward.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, 378 years ago yesterday, Charles I was executed. Does the Minister agree that this shows the dangers of any form of taxation, including indiscriminately taxing rail fare users for something that should be provided in another way?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord again raises an important chapter in history. No matter what challenges the Government face, I hope that that fate does not await anyone.

Autonomous Road Vehicles

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will commission a feasibility study to consider converting the entire Southern Rail network to a roadway for autonomous vehicles.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we have no current plans to commission such a study. However, we are investing more than £100 million in research and development into connected and autonomous vehicles, and a further £100 million into testing infrastructure. We have commenced a programme of regulatory reforms that will keep pace with changes in technology as it comes to market. We continue to invest in our national rail infrastructure through transformative projects such as Thameslink and Crossrail to meet ever-increasing passenger demand.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for the access he gave me to Department for Transport officials and contractors, and congratulate him on the progress being made by his autonomous vehicle projects. Does he agree that the successful pilot currently under way at Heathrow demonstrates the potential of autonomous vehicles to serve on a branch line such as Lewes to Seaford, and that if we demonstrate success on that line, the technology would suit the peripheral parts of the Southern network very well? If we succeed at that, we will be in a great position in an industry with worldwide applications, which is just what we are trying to with the industrial strategy.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, of course we welcome the cutting-edge nature of transport innovation in the rail sector. In particular my noble friend talked about the new systems and operations at Heathrow and the pods being used there. There are also other parts of the rail network such as the DLR and the new rolling stock from Siemens that will be coming on line on Thameslink. There will be a use of technology and autonomous vehicles in what I believe will be controlled environments. He mentioned further innovations on the wider network. We need to see how technology can be adapted on existing systems while recognising that the interface with the people who work in the rail sector is equally important, and look at how their skills can be adapted in line with the technologies we are now seeing across the system.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, is there any function of a train driver that cannot theoretically be safely automated?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as I have already said, the DfT is not looking at any particular study. Train drivers across the network, across the country and beyond play a very important role. We are seeing the outlay and the new driver-only operated trains coming on board. As I have already said, we need to embrace technology and look at how the employee interface works with it. We are seeing some very good examples across the country.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister not think that a very good example can be found from 54 years ago in Admiralty Fleet Order 150/63 —action to be taken in the instance of being bitten by a snake? When one looks at the Southern region, the first bit of advice is “Kill the snake”.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I regret to say that I am not familiar with the order that the noble Lord has mentioned, nor with its related nature. As I often say to him, in the interests of education, I will look up that order when I return to the department.

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, in trying to achieve autonomous vehicles, we should not only look at roads; they have uses not only on rail lines but in agricultural and marine environments, where there will be huge opportunities for connected and autonomous vehicles, although possibly short of full autonomy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend is quite right to suggest that. He mentioned roads and I agree. As a Government, we are already trialling connected and autonomous vehicles. To digress for a moment, it is quite a strange sensation when you sit in an autonomous car for the first time, knowing that you are no longer directly in control. My noble friend talks about other uses. In my own area of transport—aviation—the autopilot has been used extensively. There is a need to see how we can embrace technology in an innovative way across all transport modes, while recognising that in certain circumstances controlled interaction is also important.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, yesterday Transport Focus announced its latest survey results, which showed the satisfaction level with the way in which Southern trains deals with delays to be down to 12%. It also referred to the timetable for London and the south-east of England as, in many cases, a work of fiction. Therefore, I have some sympathy with the imagination that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has applied to this Question. However, if autonomous vehicles develop as promised—and as the Government wish them to, as indicated by the Minister—they will be on our roads by 2025. What are the Government doing to prepare our legal structures and road system for this revolution?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness referred to Southern rail. I am sure that across the House we welcome the fact that one of the two unions is now sitting down to talk. That will be welcomed not just by those who use the network and who have particularly suffered over a long period but by us all. We hope that the result of those discussions will be positive. She talked about the importance of innovation and autonomous vehicles coming on line. Of course, she is right to raise insurance and other areas related to the use of such technology. The DfT is investing a great deal of time in research and development and in talking to the industry in exactly the way that she has suggested.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Before Southern rail tracks are tarmacked over, perhaps I may again take the opportunity to ask the Government the question that I asked the other week but to which I received absolutely no answer—namely, what financial penalties has Southern rail or its holding company, Govia, had to pay for poor performance unrelated to industrial action over the last 18 months under the terms of the franchise agreement providing for them to operate the rail service?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As the noble Lord is aware—we have already had an exchange on this—first, we hold the company to account. My honourable friend the Rail Minister meets the company once a week. Secondly, we have levied penalties in accordance with the current contract. Thirdly, as he is fully aware, the operator has invoked force majeure clauses. We need to look at each case before we decide on further action, and that work is nearly complete. However, to put it into context, as some noble Lords may know, there were 10,000 different cases and claims of force majeure between April and June, and that underlines the challenge that we face.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that anyone who suggests that we close railway lines should be referred back to the vandalism of the Beeching era, when thousands of miles of track were closed, viaducts were smashed up and tunnels were filled in? Now many communities up and down the country are trying to reopen lines that were closed. Perhaps that is a lesson that everyone should take on board.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right. Indeed there are lines that were disused in the past that we are currently looking at to see how they can be brought back into service. I do not think any noble Lord, including my noble friend, has at any time suggested closing or tarmacking over railway lines. Instead we are trying to see how we can use innovation and technology in adapting for our railways of the future.