Counter-Extremism Strategy

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress they have made with their review of the counter-extremism strategy announced in August.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

The counter-extremism review has now concluded. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is considering the recommendations made and will provide a further update to the House in due course. Countering extremism in all its forms, and protecting the public, remain key priorities for the Government.

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Robin Simcox, the Government’s Commissioner for Countering Extremism, draws a distinction between Islam, one of the three great Abrahamic faiths, and Islamist extremism, which he describes as

“the key threat I am confronted with”,

and therefore a threat to all of us. Do the Government agree with their Commissioner for Countering Extremism?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Question and for the way he put it. The Commissioner for Countering Extremism makes recommendations to the Government, and we will consider all those recommendations in due course. There is a range of threats from the extreme right, from Islamist terrorism and from other forms of terrorism, and there is a real danger that people are radicalised in ways that are new to the next generation. We keep all things under review. The Government are cognisant of the fact that there are many threats, and the one that the noble Lord mentioned is very high on the list.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, in the last year there has been a 38% rise in attacks against Muslims, and a 33% rise in attacks against people who are Jewish—anti-Semitic and Islamophobic attacks. Will the Government ensure that in their search for solutions to eradicate extremism, leading figures are careful in the language they use and that schools are not unduly targeting young children for early indications of radicalisation?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government condemn all attacks against all communities, because people have a right to live their lives according to their own beliefs and religious outlooks. We will certainly look to protect all communities. In fact, the Government have allocated resources to support particularly vulnerable places such as mosques and synagogues. We intend to ensure that we prevent radicalisation, and that means a wide-ranging Prevent programme, but we are sensitive to the fact that we do not wish to stigmatise people at a very young age.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, counterterrorism police say there is a clear link between extremism and domestic abuse, not helped by the amount of misogyny that young men are watching online. With one woman in the UK killed by a man every three days, will the Government commit to looking again at the Law Commission’s recommendations on hate crime to better protect women and girls?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My honourable friend Jess Phillips is the Minister for Safeguarding and Violence against Women and Girls, and she is currently drawing up a range of strategies. If there is a link—and I am not aware of one at this Dispatch Box today—between the issues the noble Baroness has raised, that will form part of my honourable friend’s strategy. I hope the noble Baroness will rest assured that addressing domestic violence and the perpetrators of it is at the forefront of the Government’s agenda, and we plan to halve violence against women and girls during the course of this Parliament.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as a former Minister for Countering Extremism at the Home Office and subsequently at the FCDO, I wrestled with the issue of co-ordination between those two departments on what I would term imported extremism. The clear message that needs to be sent internationally is to stop extremism at source. What measures will be included in the review to ensure that those seeking to come to our shores are prevented from doing so in the first place?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will take that as a representation on the outcome of the review, because I cannot comment on the review today. There are two aspects to extremism, the first of which is an external threat, so the Government have to be cognisant of individuals. That is why we have watch lists, security services and advice looking at potential threats from abroad. Equally, the strategy will be concerned with radicalisation at home—not just people from communities that relate to the faith of Islam, but people who might well be radicalised online by a range of sources, from outside the UK or from inside. Counter-extremism is about looking at the total envelope, at home and abroad, and the Government will focus on that when the review’s recommendations are brought forward.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

My Lords, the ISC, in its report on right-wing extremism, highlighted the issue of young men, in particular, being attracted by right-wing extremism online. Will my noble friend outline what the Government are doing to ensure that platforms take down content that is leading to the radicalisation of some young people?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, my noble friend tempts me to produce the outline of the review’s conclusions. But we genuinely take this issue seriously. When I was a Member of Parliament, a constituent of mine in a small village in north Wales was badly attacked and injured by someone with a machete who was radicalised by Nazi philosophy online. That radicalisation is extremely important, and we need to look at how we build up the stability of individuals to resist that radicalisation and, as my noble friend said, stop that radicalisation at source. If it comes from outside this country, we need to take effective action through the security services and others to close it down. I will give my noble friend further information once the review is complete.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

Following on from the last question, what steps are being taken to address the growing threat of online radicalisation, particularly among young people, and to hold tech platforms accountable for extremist content? In the context of online radicalisation, how are this Government ensuring effective co-ordination between departments, including the Home Office, the Department for Education and the Ministry of Justice, in delivering the counter-extremism strategy?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the question and the way in which the noble Lord put it. Again, I am slightly constrained in outlining the conclusions of the review before it has been completed. But let me say to him that online extremism and online radicalisation, whatever forum they come from, are extremely important issues and will be a focus of government. Going back to the point my noble friend made earlier, we have to look at a cross-government strategy on this; what happens in communities through local government departments, for example, is as important in preventing radicalisation as what the Home Office and the security services do, and we need to be aware of that. When the conclusions are published and my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has announced and opined on them, I will be able to report back to this House in more detail.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am sure that Ministers and Members on the Government Benches remember the election in July fondly. But lest we forget, it was marred by ugly episodes of intimidation and harassment. Can the Minister update us on promises from the Home Secretary to specifically investigate, for example, the openly anti-Semitic supporters and red paint-wielding pro-Palestine activists hounding and abusing candidates and canvassers alike? In the context of attempts to use fear to distort election results, can the Minister outline which of the recommendations for safeguarding democracy in the review by the noble Lord, Lord Walney, will be enacted, and when?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

There is a Defending Democracy Taskforce comprising a number of Ministers, led by my honourable friend Dan Jarvis, the Minister with responsibility for security and counterterrorism. It is reviewing a range of issues and working across government to ensure that the integrity of elections is maintained. By “integrity” I mean elections being free of interference from abroad and from intimidation at home. I hope that will help satisfy the noble Baroness.

[The Lord Bishop of Chichester]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his and his department’s ongoing support for all faith communities that face extreme behaviour and attacks on their buildings and property. Will the Minister update the House on what material His Majesty’s Government are preparing in response to Martyn’s law, and how they plan to communicate clear and easily understood advice for small volunteer groups, including faith groups, many of which struggle with the demands of administration and compliance?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for his question. Martyn’s law has been considered by and has cleared the House of Commons, and the issues he raises have been debated there. I expect it to come before this House in relatively short order, probably—without breaking confidences—in the next three months. There will then be opportunities to explore that, but we are cognisant that the purpose of the measure is to ensure the safety of the public. It has to be balanced with the safety and response of the communities that organise events in those halls and other facilities. On his first point, the Government will continue to provide funding in order to offer protection to synagogues and other religious buildings where threats are visible and real.

Non-crime Hate Incidents

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

It is vital that the police monitor non- crime hate incidents when proportionate and necessary to do so to help prevent serious crimes. The police focus, however, is on keeping our streets safe and protecting communities, and we will balance protecting communities from hate with the fundamental right of free speech.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, so-called non-crime hate incidents may have been introduced for perfectly good reasons after the Macpherson inquiry, but last year the police recorded more than 13,000, including some against schoolchildren and others for utterly absurd reasons—I myself was investigated for calling Hamas Islamists. Meanwhile, just 2% of rapes and 4% of burglaries lead to someone being charged, shoplifting has been virtually decriminalised and there is an epidemic of mobile phone theft on the streets of London. The police and the public think all this is utterly absurd. Will Ministers set up an independent review to ensure that the police are dealing with real crimes with real victims?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The collection of non-crime hate incident information is important because it helps to get a picture of potential wider crime in due course. But make no mistake: this Government’s priority is securing the streets, protecting the public and improving neighbourhood policing. The noble Lord will know that we are very clear that we support action on rape and sexual offences, and we are going to support action on burglary and put in place neighbourhood policing. Even today, the Home Secretary has announced half a billion pounds of extra support for policing, over and above what will be announced in December’s final settlement, to secure neighbourhood policing and tackle the very issues the noble Lord mentioned.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, last year, I spoke in the debate on the new code of practice and urged the then Conservative Minister to require that each police force, among other things, report to the Minister on how many new incidents of non-crime hate speech had been recorded in the previous 12 months, and every year thereafter. Can the Minister tell us—and if not, write to me—whether this is happening, and if it is not, will he undertake to put such a requirement in place?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Home Secretary has today announced potential reforms to the monitoring of police performance and what they need to monitor. If the noble Lord looks at what the Home Secretary said, he will see that there will be an ongoing process of monitoring police performance, and as part of that, the recording of non-crime hate incidents will undoubtedly be a key issue.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that in the last year of the last Blair Government, 207,000 on-the-spot fines were made, compared to 7,200 in the last year of the previous Government? Does he agree that we need to get back to community policing and to Labour ways if we are going to cut anti-social behaviour?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

One of the key elements of the Labour manifesto which will be brought forward this year by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is establishing work to improve neighbourhood policing. Potentially, 13,000 officers will be put on to neighbourhood policing in order to build community strength and, in accordance with my noble friend’s wishes, to look at low-level crime, which is nevertheless an extremely important issue to the people who are victims of it.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I support nearly everything that the noble Lord, Lord Austin, said. The recording of hate crime was a well-intended change, for the reasons he gave, but the definition of a crime is objective and the definition of hate crime is subjective. During the time this has been in place, online crime and online hate crime have grown massively, and the application of the hate crime definition has been inconsistent. I agree that it is time to review how this has been applied, which may therefore allow time for the police to visit crime scenes. That would not be a bad idea, because that is the best chance of detecting it.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Non-crime hate incidents are not treated as crime, and they are not a big part of daily police work. The College of Policing—which the noble Lord will know well—and the inspectorate are making it clear that there needs to be a common-sense and consistent approach to the way in which they are recorded. But I hope I can assure the noble Lord that this Government are about securing additional police support to tackle the policing of neighbourhood crime and to give local support to the big issues of shoplifting and burglary, as well as domestic violence and violence against women and girls. That is a core part of the mission, and he can hold the Government to account and rest assured that we will do that over the course of the next four and a half years.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the new code of practice highlights the need to protect free speech. However, the police watchdog has raised concerns that officers handling these reports lack the training, capacity and experience to make such complex decisions and that this is placing too much responsibility on them. What are the Government doing to address these concerns?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for those comments. I hope I can reassure her that the College of Policing and the inspectorate will be examining these issues as part of the police performance review that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is initiating. There are important matters to examine regarding how this works, but I go back to the first principle. We have made it clear that our priorities are safer streets and neighbourhood policing, but that NCHIs are part of building a bigger picture of what potential hate incidents are—against not only people’s religion but their sexual preference. They are not acceptable, they need to be monitored and lessons can be learned to improve policing responses in the long term.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My Lords, this week the Prime Minister urged the police to concentrate on what matters most to their communities rather than being drawn into investing resources in tackling non-crime hate incidents. What steps does the Minister plan to take to send the pendulum back towards investigating real crime?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

How about the half a billion pounds that was announced today by the Home Secretary? How about the focus on neighbourhood policing, with 13,000 police officers? How about the record levels of investment in policing, which were cut under the Government in which the noble Lord served? How about getting back to the levels of police officers that existed when I was Police Minister in 2009-10? That might help to deal with some of the issues the noble Lord addresses. He knows the serious issues that this Government have pledged to address.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, statistics have been essential in assessing and understanding the levels of anti-Semitism in this country, as endorsed by two all-party inquiries and by evidence from every major Jewish community organisation. Can I entice the Minister into a meeting to discuss how we can further improve the system?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I would never resist a meeting with my noble friend Lord Mann, and he can have one. I always say that it is better to have an open door than to have one kicked down.

[Lord Herbert of South Downs (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register of Member’s interests as chair of the College of Policing. Did not the recording of non-crime hate incidents have its genesis in the Macpherson review, as the noble Lord, Lord Austin, said? But that was a quarter of a century ago and since then, we have had the expansion of hate crime laws, the explosion of social media and the very heavily contested space of online comment. Is it not right for the Home Secretary to call for a common-sense approach to this? We may need a rebalancing, so that the police can focus on the job they are meant to do and not be drawn into the policing of mere disputes, which is bad for public confidence in the service.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hope the noble Lord does not take this the wrong way, but I pay tribute to him for his work as chair of the College of Policing.

I have tried to say to the House that non-crime hate incidents are there to provide background information. They are not necessarily leading to prosecution or to crime, but the background information can be effective in building up a picture of potential areas where crime may well exist, because people will overstep the mark into criminal activity. We will try to look at that in the round, and as part of the review of police performance, that will be taken into account.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, following what the Minister has just said, why are children being investigated?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I cannot give the noble and learned Baroness any detail on the number of children impacted by any of these hate crimes; however, I hope that she will accept the principle. I will certainly look at figures that the department might have regarding the children involved, and I will write to her, but I hope that the intention behind the direction in which government policy is going is clear to the House.

Probation Services: Prisoner Early Release Scheme

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the prisoner early release scheme on probation services.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

An impact assessment was conducted ahead of laying the necessary legislation. The SDS40 scheme now has an eight-week implementation period, allowing the service to better prepare and put release plans into place for offenders. The service has taken steps to meet growing demand by focusing on early engagement, and plans to onboard 1,000 new trainee probation officers across the year 2024-25.

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

I thank the Minister for his Answer. Given that we need to be looking long-term, and in the hope that the sentencing review will promote alternatives to custody, will the Minister say what the Government are doing not just to recruit more probation staff but to retain and develop staff so that they are respected and recognised as highly valued professionals?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for her work as the prison lead in the Church of England and for her comments and support for the Probation Service. The 1,000 probation officers who are going to be recruited as trainees will receive top-quality training, but we also need to look at how we retain the expertise of probation officers, value their experience and ensure that they are part of the Government’s mission to reduce reoffending. Once the sentencing review is complete, we must look to put in place effective sentences that reduce reoffending as well as punishing individuals.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

My Lords, a third of all people who leave prison have nowhere to go. Are the Government taking that into account and ensuring that the people they are letting out are not going to fall homeless in the period immediately after?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Bird, makes a valuable point. As part of the planning for the early release SDS scheme that is in place now, the Government are ensuring that there are prison leads, employment leads and housing leads, working eight weeks before release to ensure that individuals have support in order to—as far as possible, though there will always be areas where this does not happen—put in place a proper release plan, to ensure that people go into the community and do not face the pressures that lead to reoffending.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, if we look at the position of the recruitment of probation officers, as the Minister said, we see that all the inspectorate’s reports show a dire need for new recruits in that area at the first and second levels. Why is it that we are already unable to recruit sufficient people to the Probation Service, which now faces the additional work of having to work with local authorities—which are poorly stretched for housing—and health services? We need these people right now, and that is the problem that we face. The recruitment of the 1,000 officers will occur some time in the future, but how are the Government going to solve the problems immediately?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord should know that the 1,000 are going to be in place by March 2025, and he can hold the Government to account on that figure. We are recruiting now; it is currently 14 November 2024, and, from memory, by March 2025 the 1,000 will be in place. We have improved support for probation staff and increased the pay level from 1 October to 1 April this year, to recognise and, I hope, retain people who are in post.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, the Chief Probation Officer said in September that they expected up to one-third of early release prisoners to reoffend. What steps have the Government taken to ensure that victims of early release violent offenders are first informed and then supported?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The initial assessment by officials of the early release scheme has indicated that there has not been a significant change to the number of recalls that have taken place—although that is always potentially an issue with anyone, at any time, who leaves prison with the remainder of their sentence in place. Victim liaison is extremely important. I assure the noble Lord that, in the event of breaches taking place, recalls happen quickly and individuals are recalled to prison as a matter of emergency.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

But—

[Lord Paddick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, a magistrate recently told me that he is resorting to short-term custodial sentences because he has no confidence in the non-custodial alternatives. For example, people are being sentenced to unpaid work but the Probation Service is saying there is no unpaid work for that person to do, so the sentence is written off. Does the Probation Service really have the capacity to do what it is being asked to do?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Probation Service is asked to do an awful lot. Its first and foremost duty is to protect public safety, and to ensure the rehabilitation of people through community sentences or release mechanisms. The noble Lord will know that a sentencing review has been commissioned by the Lord Chancellor. That review is looking at long-term sentences, at short-term sentences and their effectiveness, and at the strengthening of community sentences. It is extremely important that community sentences are strong, that they are implemented and that people attend them. I hope that, further down the line in our policy development, the sentencing review delivers for victims, reducing reoffending and helping the rehabilitation of those individuals who have been convicted.

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the early release scheme excludes prisoners serving a sentence for sexual offences, domestic abuse, terrorism and serious violent offences. Will the Minister explain why the Government do not regard all crimes of violence as serious for these purposes?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his question. I think that, on reflection, he will know that, had he been at this Dispatch Box after 4 July, he would have been introducing a similar scheme to the one that the Government have currently introduced, though perhaps without the exceptions that we have made on sexual offences, domestic violence offences and serious offences. A line has to be drawn, and the Government have done so. Our prime objective is to free up prison places while ensuring that there is probation support, as indicated by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester, to ensure that we protect individuals on their release. I hear what the noble and learned Lord says but he knows—and the smile on his face tells me he knows—that he would have introduced a very similar scheme in this place had he been the Minister.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, we are all familiar with the reasons for the early release scheme having to be established, but does the Minister agree that, if we are to reduce recidivism in this country, there needs to be a proper system in place for the planned discharge of prisoners—not for when they are discharged but for a long time before then—so that essential elements in their lives, such as accommodation and the like, can be established before the discharge takes place? Letting people go out from prison without those elements in place just encourages recidivism.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

That is an extremely important point. The issues of housing, potential employment, family contact, a bank account or access to finance, and the establishment of benefits prior to release if the person is qualified for them, are key building blocks in preventing an individual reoffending. I will draw the noble Lord’s comments to the attention of the Minister for Probation, who I am deputising for today. I am sure he will find common cause in those objectives.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I think my noble friend would agree that the role of a probation officer is complex and requires a high level of skill. He has talked about recruitment. Can he share with the House a bit more about how that recruitment process is being conducted, where the search is going on and what the minimum requirements are for people who might apply for it?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that question. If I may, I shall reflect on that and raise those points with the Minister, my noble friend Lord Timpson; he will have the detail of the recruitment exercise, which I do not have before me today. I ask her to rest assured that the 1,000 new officers are on track for March 2025, and quality is key to the delivery that those probation officers are seeking to ensure.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that no foreign national offenders are being released under the early release scheme?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am afraid I cannot give the noble Lord a direct answer on that, but I will examine the list of offenders who are being released. However, foreign national offenders per se will in some cases be subject to deportation on release, will be subject to the same issues of recall in the event of any further offending and will be subject to probation management accordingly. I will look at the figure because I do not have it in front of me, for reasons that I hope he understands, and I will return to him shortly.

Small Boat Crossings

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister for Border Security and Asylum in the other place failed to say whether the Labour Party would honour its manifesto commitment and not open any more asylum hotels. This weekend in Altrincham, we saw a new hotel repurposed, with many local people angry with this decision. Does the Minister share their concern? Does he agree that this breaches the Labour Party’s manifesto commitment?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the question. No, it does not breach the Labour Party’s manifesto commitment. As the noble Lord will know, we do not comment routinely—as did his Government—on the location or content of particular asylum hostels. But he will know that this Government are resolutely committed to restarting the asylum process and to saving an estimated £7 billion for the taxpayer in doing so. We are going to deliver a major uplift in returns, and we have already returned people. We will scrap the Rwanda scheme, which the noble Lord was an architect of. We will save several million pounds in doing that and we will put that towards speeding up asylum claims and ensure that we put this matter back on track. We will revisit the Labour manifesto in due course, but I give him a firm “no” in answer to his question today.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as set out in the register; I am supported by RAMP. We all want to stop dangerous journeys to the United Kingdom, of course, and it is right that we deal harshly with people smugglers, but surely we must also try to take away the demand for the trade that these cruel people provide. Claims for asylum protection can be made only from within the United Kingdom, so the way to beat the smugglers is to provide a safe way of making an application. Will the Government examine pre-screening people from countries with a high chance of a successful application—such as Afghanistan at 96% and Syria at 99%—and then provide them with a travel permit giving them the right to make an application for asylum, thus bypassing the smugglers? Does the Minister agree that this proposal would enable the Government to regulate and predict the number of asylum seekers, as has happened in other parts of the world?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

We will regularly keep under review how we manage the case load on asylum. The noble Lord has made some suggestions that are certainly worthy of examination, but the Government are committed, overall, to meet their international responsibilities on asylum, to reduce the use of hotels, to smash the criminal gangs and to end the Rwanda scheme and use that money in a productive way. On criminal gangs, since 4 July—which, he will note, was the election date—53 people have been convicted of smuggling, 23 of them for running small boats, and they are now enjoying 52 years in prison as a result.

[Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the refugee convention of 1951 was never meant to deal with the mass migration of people but was very much to do with the persecution that Germans suffered under the Nazis? It is now being used to give the right, to any citizen of any country in the world, to set out on a journey to find a better life in another country—they are economic migrants. Now that the Rwanda scheme has been abolished, what proposals do the Government have to try to prevent economic migrants starting out on what is an illegal journey?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As the noble Lord said, we have to examine how people are coming to the United Kingdom and what is driving them to do that. As the noble Lord, Lord German, said, some of those people are transporting themselves because of the need for asylum, or because of poverty or persecution; some will be economic migrants. We need to send a signal by the way in which we deal with those individuals in the United Kingdom on arrival and how they are treated. The noble Lord will be pleased to know, I am sure, that since 5 July this year we have had 24 flights sending people back who have no right to be in the United Kingdom, most of whom are economic migrants. We sent 46 individuals to Vietnam, for example, on 24 July this year. In the long term, I hope that will send a signal about people who have a right to asylum and people who have no right to come to the United Kingdom.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister bring the House up to date? In recent months, how many unaccompanied children have arrived in this country? Is he satisfied with the arrangements to protect them from abuse and exploitation?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I cannot give the noble Lord an exact figure today, but I will ensure that I write to him with an updated figure. We had this debate a couple of weeks back with a Member from the Liberal Democrat Benches. I included a figure then but I do not have a figure in front of me, so I will need to update that and give it to the noble Lord. As we did in the debate we had in this place two to three weeks ago, I will set out in that reply how we are seeking to protect children appropriately by ensuring that we deal with local authorities in Kent and elsewhere—and to find those missing children, of whom there are approximately still 90, who went missing under the previous Government’s regime.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, my question is based on having been to Calais about a year and a half ago and talked to the NGOs working with people who were trying to get on the boats. Their feeling was that some of the people who got to Calais went because they had no advice about what was in their best interests. If there were some social workers or others in the Calais area, they might be able to give these people—young people, many of them—some better advice than simply saying that the only future for them is to get on the boats. But that is a sensible policy only if it is backed up by our willingness to take in those who have a connection with this country, particularly on the basis of family reunion.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend speaks with authority on this matter. This Government are trying to better engage with our European partners, and France in particular, on how we deal with this problem in Calais and other parts of northern France. One of those issues will be not just the policing and action at ports or on beaches but what we need to do up stream. The Prime Minister will be engaged with a number of European nations to try to look at that upstream element. It is important that we do that.

Because the figure is now in front of me, I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Baker, that we have had 9,400 returns since 5 July this year, which indicates that economic movement is not acceptable behaviour when there are legal routes for application to come to the United Kingdom.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

If we are to solve this problem, it is clearly welcome that the Government are now talking much more closely to our European neighbours. Will they accept that solving the issue of climate change is also important? If that is not solved, the number of migrants we have today will pale into insignificance compared with the numbers of people who will travel across the world to get a life—not a better life but a life at all.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I find myself in agreement with the noble Lord. The factors that drive movement are war, poverty and climate change. He will know that the Prime Minister and other Labour Government Ministers have been in Baku this week to try to get further action on climate change. One commitment that this Government have is to ensure that, in our term of office, we deal with this issue because, as the noble Lord rightly says, it will drive movement of people, poverty and potentially even war still further if it is not solved.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Can the Minister look again and think about the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord German? Since the majority of small boat arrivals are from Afghanistan, Syria, Somalia and Sudan, and since a huge majority of these applications are allowed in the end—the case for asylum is proved—would it not make sense to allow for initial vetting of applications by our diplomatic premises in the region? Would that not be a good additional way of cutting down the queue here and putting the smugglers out of business?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord might be interested in the fact that the top five countries for migration are Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria and Eritrea, and individuals come for a range of different reasons. I will bring that suggestion to the attention of my colleagues in the department who have direct responsibility for this area, who are Members of the House of Commons.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, when asked about safe routes, the Minister in the Commons yesterday said that they would not stop all the channel crossings—but all the refugee organisations argue that they would stop some of them. Following on from the questions from the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord German, can the department look more positively at the range of suggestions being made about safe routes?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The department is open to suggestions generally. We have a triple-track approach of long-term prevention, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Deben; long-term issues on smashing gangs and people smugglers through conviction and arrest; and modernising and improving our asylum system so that we can deal with asylum claims properly. We are open to suggestions about other matters that may help to resolve this problem. We are not going to be blind to the fact that there are a range of potential options, and what we need to do for the sake of those people who are being exploited by people smugglers is to try to reduce this trade dramatically.

Istanbul Convention: Article 59

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gale]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to remove the reservation on Article 59 of the Istanbul Convention relating to the residence status of victims of domestic abuse.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

Tackling violence against women and girls is a top priority for the Government. Our mission is to halve levels of violence against women and girls within a decade. We are reviewing all the issues impacting migrant victims of domestic abuse in the round, including a review on whether it is appropriate to maintain our reservation on Article 59 of the convention.

[Baroness Gale (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for that Answer but I am a little disappointed. If he is saying that there will be a review, can he say how long it will take and what its consequences will be? He cannot answer those questions yet, obviously, but I hope that it will recommend that Article 59 be removed because, in the meantime, migrant women are in a very difficult position if they are in an abusive relationship. They are afraid to leave the relationship in case they lose their migrant status or their children. No woman should have to put up with that. I hope that he will take this into account and get the review done as soon as possible.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for her comments and hate to disappoint her. I hope that I can reassure her that when the previous Government made the original reservation against Article 59, they did commit to evaluate findings of the support for migrant victims scheme pilot, to inform future decisions. That pilot was completed in August 2023. Funding for the scheme has been extended to 2025. We want migrant victims to be treated as victims first and foremost so we are reviewing this. However, the reservation will be maintained until that review is complete, which I hope will be very shortly.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, while welcoming the Minister saying that there will be a review, I share the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, who has raised this on many occasions. It is surely right to allow victims of domestic violence, often when the perpetrator has control of their documents, to leave the relationship without losing their residential status. Surely there is plenty of well-documented evidence. He needs only to read Hansard on all the debates that we have had here in your Lordships’ House to inform his review. Will he do that?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Of course. My ministerial colleague Jess Phillips in the House of Commons is undertaking this review as we speak in relation to the services and support. I remind noble Lords across the House that we are four months into the Government. The previous Government committed themselves to a formal review. The evaluation of that review is taking place. We are examining that now in view of the representations not just in this House but in a wider context, against the derogation of Article 59. We will review that in due course.

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased that the previous Government finally ratified the convention in 2022, albeit with some reservations. The convention highlights the importance of prevention through education and awareness. What steps are the Government taking to incorporate education on gender-based violence and healthy relationships in schools and public campaigns, and how will they measure the impacts of those initiatives?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government have a very strong strategy for a mission against violence against women and girls. There are a number of points in that plan but one of its key elements is how we can raise education in schools, particularly for young males and against some role models that now appear on social media and elsewhere. It is an extremely important question that we are trying to evaluate and take forward shortly as part of the plan to halve violence against women and girls. I hope that the noble Baroness can then comment on it and help to support the Government in implementing it.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, will my noble friend take steps to talk to the Ministers for Justice in the devolved nations and regions—particularly Northern Ireland, where there have been growing levels of femicide? These have been particularly marked in the last few weeks, when a number of young ladies have been murdered and other women are now afraid to walk the streets. In that regard, will my noble friend talk to the appropriate Ministers in the devolved nations and regions about mitigation measures to safeguard women in the home and the wider environment?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It should be a fundamental right of women to walk the streets free of fear and free of potential abuse or violence of the seriousness of murder, which my noble friend mentioned. We are discussing very closely with the devolved Administrations how we can resolve the problem and meet the challenge that the Government have set of halving violence against women and girls. The Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls, Jess Phillips, will meet the Northern Ireland Ministers and, while respecting their devolved role, will encourage them to ensure that we tackle this issue on a joint basis.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, under the previous Conservative Government, we passed the landmark Domestic Abuse Act 2021. If I may, I suggest that the Government should now build on our work to tackle this issue. In that context, can the Minister tell us what is being done by the Government on the wider issue of combating domestic abuse, both here in the UK and abroad?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I welcome the noble Lord to his post as a shadow Home Affairs Minister. I have been here for only four months, but I already feel like a veteran. It is a pleasure to see him on the Front Bench. He will know that the Labour manifesto, which is now the Government’s manifesto for change, included a number of key points on tackling violence against women and girls. We have set an ambitious target to halve that violence against women and girls over the course of this Parliament. That includes help and support for police officers and for individuals who are victims of violence, and the issues to do with education mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, a moment ago. We will be judged on that target in the course of the programme the Government have set.

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

My Lords, data obtained by the Domestic Abuse Commissioner in 2023 revealed that all 43 police forces across England and Wales had shared information about victims and survivors of domestic abuse with immigration enforcement. Do the Government intend to tackle this practice by introducing a firewall?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I think this is important. On the firewall between police and immigration not being implemented, I put it to the right reverend Prelate that an external firewall would not necessarily prevent the perpetrator or any anonymous third party informing immigration enforcement about the victim’s immigration status. However, it would impact law enforcement agencies’ ability to investigate crimes. I hear what she says, and that issue will be reviewed by my honourable friend in the House of Commons as part of this general review.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, was about our reservation on the Istanbul convention, and the Minister’s answer was that the reservation still stands. As long as it stands, we are telling the world that women fleeing domestic abuse have to be turned away at refuges unless they can prove that they have a right of access to public funds. That is shocking. I am glad to hear that the Minister is conducting a review or evaluating the review set up at the urging of the International Agreements Committee of this House under the previous Government. Will he bring that review to a speedy conclusion so that we can remove this slur of our reservation on the Istanbul convention?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hear what the noble Lord has powerfully mentioned. As I have indicated, a review is being undertaken by my honourable friend the Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls, Jess Phillips, in the House of Commons. That review will be completed in short order, I hope, and I will be able to report its outcome back to this House in due course. I fully understand the passion with which the noble Lord speaks.

[Lord Meston (CB)]

My Lords, it is well known that uncertainty about immigration status can be exploited by those wanting to continue to restrict and control a partner or former partner, so it is welcome that we now have some clarification about our compliance with the obligations under Article 59. The article is not open to abuse or misuse: it is confined by its terms to those in particularly difficult circumstances. In view of what the Minister has said, can he also confirm what will happen when the reservation, which was originally time limited, and I think remains so, expires?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The question of the expiry of Article 59 is part of the review. I find myself in the difficult position of repeating myself: a review is being undertaken and its outcome will be reported back to this House in due course, and a decision will be taken by the Government to maintain the previous Government’s reservation or change it. I am not in a position today to inform the House of the outcome of that review.

Immigration and Nationality (Fees) (Amendment) Order 2024

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the draft Order and Regulations laid before the House on 12 September and 16 October be approved.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the first instrument). Considered in Grand Committee on 11 November.

Motions agreed.

Criminal Finances Act 2017 and Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2024

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Criminal Finances Act 2017 and Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2024.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to be here today, with the interest in the instrument before us, and I am pleased to see members of the Front Benches here with us this afternoon.

I shall give a little background to the regulations, if possible. The Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 contained a wide range of measures of reforms to reduce economic crime and increase transparency over corporate entities conducting business in the United Kingdom. That included a range of measures enabling targeted information-sharing, tackling money laundering and removing reporting burdens on businesses. Additionally, the Act introduced new intelligence-gathering powers for law enforcement and reform of outdated criminal corporate liability laws. It also introduced reforms to unexplained wealth orders, corporate liability laws and targeted information-sharing, which are already in force.

More recently, guidance for the new offence of failure to prevent fraud was published last week, and I was pleased to support that on 6 November. The offence itself comes into effect in September 2025, helping to support fraud prevention measures before this offence comes into force. The Act also introduced the new regime to tackle criminal and terrorist crypto assets; this is relevant to the debate today. The use of crypto assets in illegal activity is sadly increasing and, when introducing and reviewing legislation, we want to consider the emerging technologies and how they can be harnessed by criminals to commit crime or indeed hide their illegal gains.

The previous Government introduced a bespoke regime to the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, which allowed effective seizure of both criminal and terrorist crypto assets. This regime was introduced in the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 to make it easier to confiscate crypto assets from criminals and to forfeit crypto assets obtained from, or indeed to be used in, crime or terrorism. On 26 April, the crypto assets measure that this debate relates to came into force. The powers are operational in England and Wales and, as of the end of October, over 80 cases have exercised the new powers, including crypto asset seizures or confiscation cases involving crypto assets.

I want briefly to outline the purpose of this instrument, however. The regulations here will make a set of amendments that are consequential on the Criminal Finances Act 2017 and on the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023. The regulations make consequential amendments to the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 and will ensure that the investigative powers of that Act include, for example, reference to crypto asset investigations in all the necessary sections for the powers to function properly and in accordance with their policy intention.

This draft instrument is required to complete that commencement of the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023, and will ensure that all the necessary legislation is now in place and there is legal certainty about how cases will be dealt with. I hope that noble Lords will see that this is an important aspect in the fight against crime, and particularly in the use of crypto assets. I commend the statutory instrument to the Committee.

[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

We support this statutory instrument but have a few observations and questions. It is clear that more needs to be done to combat fraud, now our most frequent crime. Fraud accounts for around 40% of all crimes in England and Wales, with an estimated 3.2 million offences per year, and was said by the previous Government in February to cost society about £6.8 billion a year. There are, in fact, much larger estimates. The Annual Fraud Indicator estimated that UK annual losses to fraud could be £219 billion in total, with £8.3 billion coming from individuals.

It is also clear that our current armoury needs extending. Both POCA and the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act are either defective or inadequate, or both. It is not surprising that POCA 2002 requires updating—22 years is an aeon when it comes to the more exotic and newer means of being scammed. However, it is rather surprising that the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023, which received Royal Assent on 26 October last year, did not incorporate some of the variations introduced by this SI. The Act did, after all, deal with the seizure of assets, including crypto assets, in its Schedule 8. The Explanatory Memorandum, at paragraph 5.1, says that,

“a huge rise in the use of digital technologies in crypto assets has provided new methods to conduct crime and deposit gains from criminality”.

Paragraph 5.3 says that,

“consequential amendments are required … so that search and seizure are exercisable and effective for the purpose of crypto asset investigations”.

Could the Minister expand on all this? Where were the provisions of the ECCT Act inadequate? What events or information triggered the realisation that the amendment was needed? The fact that the amendments were needed raises the question of what else was wrong or missing from POCA or the ECCT Act. What reassurance can the Minister give us that all the defects in these Acts are remedied by this SI? Do further aspects of either Act need at least an attempt at future-proofing?

I would be grateful for an explanation from the Minister of some of the detailed provisions in the SI. The term “substantial value” is used as a qualifier four times in Regulation 2(4); it is obviously an important qualification. What is the test for

“is likely to be of substantial value”,

and is it the same test—or tests—in all four appearances of the phrase in this instrument? Who decides what the threshold is in each case?

I have a couple more questions about interpretation. Regulation 2(4)(b) inserts new subsection (7G)(a), which refers to

“any other question as to its derivation”.

Does “derivation” here mean provenance, or has it some alternative meaning? The same question applies to the use of “derivation” in Regulation 2(6). Is not the phrase “any other question” in itself extremely wide in scope? What questions, if any, are excluded by this phrasing?

I was pleased to see the attempt at an impact assessment incorporated in the EM. I wondered, however, what weight to give to the assessment of benefits. The range offered is very large, even if the lower bound quoted in the EM, of £107.60, is a misprint of £107.6 million. The difficulty in assessing the usefulness and reliability of these estimates is exacerbated by the qualifying sentences in paragraph 9.2 of the EM, which say:

“The data and assumptions surrounding cryptoassets are limited due to the technology being relatively new and rapidly changing. It is also sensitive, and many figures and police data are not suitable for the public domain”.


This seems rather opaque. Can the Minister say whether enforcement authorities are significantly disadvantaged when it comes to dealing with likely crypto asset issues? Can he be a little less mysterious about that final sentence in paragraph 9.2 of the EM—in particular, is it reasonable to rely on unspecified and apparently secret data whose reliability we cannot estimate or properly qualify? After saying all that, I should repeat that we support this SI.

--- Later in debate ---

I welcome these regulations as a necessary evolution of our legislative response to economic crime and a reaffirmation that, no matter how clever criminals may think they are, the Home Office will always catch up with them.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for noble Lords’ contributions. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Murray, to his new position. I wish him well—as well as I can do in government. I hope that he enjoys his position. He used to hold my position in government; he will know how challenging, diverse and enjoyable it is.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked about the discussions in relation to the crypto asset legislation and why this instrument is being brought forward. The asset legislation is extensive. It branches into three detailed schedules on the new regime, covering criminal, civil and investigatory powers. I hold my hands up: at the time of drafting, some small omissions were made; for example, references to what a crypto asset investigation is are not included. That predates me, but these things happen. Legislation is for discussion. The noble Lords, Lord Murray and Lord Sharpe, were in office at the time, but it is not for me to throw rocks in this case. I simply say that we must tighten the regulations as best as we can.

The omissions were a drafting oversight, the reason for which is the complex, technical nature of legislation—in particular, the crypto asset provision. As the noble Lord, Lord Murray, will know, the legislation came into force on 26 April 2024. This instrument was scheduled to be debated prior to the general election but it fell with the election. It ha, therefore fallen to new Ministers to take the omission forward; that is what we have accordingly done.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked about fraud generally. I accept fully the points that he made. He recognises, I hope, that I am now the first specific Fraud Minister. I have been tasked by the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary to look at fraud in particular. The Minister in the Commons, my honourable friend Dan Jarvis, is looking at economic crime. We have established a mechanism to review the fraud strategy put in place by the previous Government, which was published in May 2023. It had a number of strands of activity in it. Roughly 27 or 28 of those strands have now been completed, and another 17 or so are in the process of being completed.

I have committed to see through the previous Government’s fraud strategy. We are now refreshing it to look at a number of key areas, including data sharing, international co-operation and the technical abilities of both telecommunications companies and tech companies. We will revise the fraud strategy at some point during the first half of this Parliament to ensure that we address some of the issues and take it forward still further.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, mentioned “substantial value”. Again, if he will let me, I will reflect with officials on how we can interpret that, but it is important to note the asset seizures that have taken place this year; this also goes back to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Murray, mentioned. Between April and October, 23 crypto asset seizures, with a value of £2.5 million, and 64 confiscation cases, involving identification of crypto assets totalling £6 million, have taken place. I regard those as substantial value in the terms of the instrument. I am pleased to have the noble Lord’s support for this instrument. If he will let me reflect with officials on whether we can define that further then I will certainly write to him, but I hope that will not be a bar to passing the instrument.

The noble Lord raised a number of other important but technical points on some of the issues in the economic statement. Again, if he will let me reflect on those I will make sure that he gets a full answer, but I hope they will not prevent him supporting this instrument.

I am grateful for the support for the instrument from the noble Lord, Lord Murray. I have tried to answer the points he raised relating to the seizures that have taken place. It is not for me to determine the number of prison sentences that might accrue as a result of that and of the changes we are making, but he needs to know, as I am sure he understands, that the Government, in passing this instrument and taking the action that we are on fraud, want to send a very strong signal to those who trade in or hold their criminal assets in crypto assets that we will come looking for them. If he wishes to know the impact of that, I can tell him that, under his Government between 2018 and 2024, £1.6 billion was recovered from criminals using asset recovery powers under POCA, and £140.7 million was paid in victim compensation from confiscation orders. With this statutory instrument, we want to ensure that we do not have that narrow misidentification that allows a problem to exist when we can take action under legislation that had mutual support from all parties in this House and in the Commons in the previous Parliament.

I hope that, with those points, I can assure both Front Benches that this is an important instrument that tightens a loophole and redresses the powers that were missing in the previous legislation. It is done for a purpose, which is to ensure that those who use and benefit from crypto assets have the ability to have those crypto assets identified and, if necessary, taken as assets.

Motion agreed.

Police: Junior Cadet Schemes

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bailey of Paddington]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to support junior police cadet schemes.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

The Government recognise the value of volunteer police cadet programmes and the role they play in supporting young people and their communities. The annual Lord Ferrers Awards ceremony is organised by the Home Office to recognise the efforts of volunteer police cadets and other volunteers for their local communities. However, the management of police forces’ volunteer police cadet programme schemes is the responsibility of chief constables and police and crime commissioners.

[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

Given that the relationship between young people and the Met police is at such a low ebb and that police cadets have a positive impact on community relations and young people’s safety, what assurances can the Minister give the House that funding police cadets remains a priority for the Government?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As I just mentioned, police cadet funding is the responsibility of the police and crime commissioner and chief constable in each local area. There is no direct funding from this Government, nor was there from the previous Government over the last 14 years. However, we take very seriously the need to support police cadets; we have a safer streets mission proposing a Young Futures programme to help establish local prevention partnerships, with local interventions to help young people who might be brought into violence get involved in preventive activity. The noble Lord raises an extremely important point.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I support the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bailey, about the strength and benefit of volunteer cadets. I appreciate the Minister’s point that these are down to local decisions, but would it be worth the Home Office considering some kind of target for the number of cadets, as sometimes this can get lost when there are other priorities? About one in five goes on to become a police officer or member of police staff, and about one in three in London is from a minority community. They get contact with a lot of people and families who might otherwise not have contact with the Met police. They are worth supporting, but a target may help.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a valuable point; I re-emphasise that we are trying to give discretion to local forces, chief constables and PCCs to determine their priorities. It is a valuable tool, which involves some people going on to the police. The vast majority do not, but they are still engrained in community support, prevention work and, as the noble Lord mentioned, understanding the role of the police. However, I hope he understands why I cannot really agree to his point about targets.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, in supporting my noble friend Lord Bailey, I suggest that it might be a good idea to encourage individuals to join the special constabulary, as I once did, because that is a good way of getting people to look to the regular police force as a career. It would also be a good idea to pay special constables, as we do retained firemen and members of the TA.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I agree with the noble Earl that—

[Noble Lords]

Viscount!

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am still getting used to this. I agree wholeheartedly about special constables. When I was last Police Minister 14 and a half years ago, there were 15,505 special constables in the United Kingdom; today, there are 6,118. It is certainly something that we wish to look at and encourage because they play a full role, but the last 14 years’ decline is not down to me.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, the Met said that its decision on cadets was driven by resource challenges, but part of this problem is that all police forces are spending vast amounts of their time doing the work of other agencies, because the other agencies cannot cope with the demand. I am talking about, for example, looking after children who are in a dreadful state because they have been taken away from care. Does the Minister agree that before the situation gets out of control, we ought to sit down and come to an agreement about exactly what it is we want our police to do, and follow that up with a fundamental review of how the police are structured and resourced?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for those comments. She will know that one of the manifesto commitments of this incoming Government was to look at how we could improve neighbourhood policing as one major thrust on this, looking at a very local, community-based effort based on local requirements to get some engagement with the police—this goes back to the points made by the noble Lord earlier in his supplementary question. This will ensure that we can focus on the community response to policing issues. We are looking at all sorts of issues now regarding the reform of policing. When the police Bill comes before this House and the House of Commons later in this Session, there will be an opportunity to discuss some of the reforms that we are trying to make.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My Lords, the last Government met their manifesto pledge to recruit another 20,000 police officers. Does the Minister agree that to build on that record of success, it would be useful to improve the conversion rate of police cadets into recruited police officers? What steps will he take to do that?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I welcome the noble Lord to his new responsibilities. On behalf of myself and my team, I ask him to pass on my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, for the work that he did. He was very welcoming to me in my first four months in this House; I will try to be welcoming to the noble Lord as well.

The noble Lord says that the last Government met their objectives of recruiting 20,000 police officers. That happened after a reduction of 20,000 from when I was Police Minister in 2010, and it happened under the Liberal Democrat-Conservative coalition. Only latterly did the Government recognise the folly of that cut and slowly build those forces back up to their right size now. I agree with him that it would be very good to try to encourage police cadets to join the force. We want to build on the neighbourhood policing model, but I think it is a bit disingenuous on his first outing at the Dispatch Box to claim 20,000 new officers, when this number in fact replaced officers cut by his Government.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I declare my interest in that it was—I think—54 years ago that I was a volunteer police cadet.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

I would be grateful if the Minister, in expressing his commitment both to volunteer police cadets but also to the voluntary roles of special constables, could consider whether there is in fact a role for the Home Office generally in promoting these schemes—of course, not abrogating the specific responsibilities of a chief constable or a police and crime commissioner, but I think it is something the Home Office could run a national scheme about.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. I find it impossible to believe that that was 54 years ago; he must have been a very young man at the time. He makes a very valuable point. We agree on the importance of the youth cadets, which is why Earl Ferrers, a former Home Office Minister, instituted the scheme to welcome and recognise good cadets. I presented the Lord Ferrers Awards with the Earl in 2009; he was very proud of the awards and should get credit for them. The Home Office wishes to continue that scheme and that recognition and will do all it can to encourage people to play their role as youth cadets, special constables and, indeed, proper constables.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, almost parallel to the police cadets is the Combined Cadet Force, which is particularly relevant to the military services; it faces very similar problems. Given what the Minister just referred to, will he look at some of the constituent parts of the police cadets schemes to make them more successful? At the same time, one should open that up a little more broadly to look at the rather similar problems that the Combined Cadet Force is having.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is slightly outside my scope of responsibility, but I give credit to the noble Lord for the fact that the RAF, Army and Navy cadets are all very valuable. Only this weekend, we saw them marching and playing a full role in Remembrance services across the United Kingdom. It is an important point, and I will refer his comments to the appropriate Defence Minister to recognise his strength of feeling.

[Lord Paddick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. The Minister says how supportive he is of volunteer cadets and how powerless the Home Office is in doing anything about them because of police and crime commissioners. Is it not time to review the system of police and crime commissioners to enable the Government to achieve what they want with police services?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am afraid that is a no for the noble Lord.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that, after 14 years of cuts from the Tories and the Liberals, we now find ourselves having to rebuild the police force? Does the Minister think that the Opposition should apologise for 13 years of cuts and take the blame for the problems that we have with our police service?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his questions. I am very proud of the fact that, when I was the Police Minister, we had the largest number of police officers on the beat in the country ever in the history of policing. That was eroded through decisions taken by the coalition Government. It was slowly built back up to its current level by the post-coalition Government, but they still cannot get away from the fact that they were responsible for a reduction in policing. Latterly that was recognised, which is to be welcomed. I want to build on that with our new neighbourhood policing model over our time in office.

Immigration and Nationality (Fees) (Amendment) Order 2024

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) (Amendment) Order 2024.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

My Lords, this order has been laid to introduce a power to charge a fee for UK visa qualification equivalency and English language proficiency assessment services, and to set the maximum fee that can be charged. For noble Lords’ benefit, I will provide some background to the fee structure we currently have in place. For the Home Office to charge for immigration and nationality functions, the Immigration Act 2014 requires that fees must be set in secondary legislation. The Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2016, an amendment to which we are discussing, sets out the functions for which a fee can be charged and sets the maximum fee that can be charged. Fee levels are subsequently set in separate secondary legislation—the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations 2018—which is subject to parliamentary agreement through the negative procedure.

The fees for the services we are seeking to regulate are for assessments used on certain visa and nationality routes, including family, skilled worker, settlement, and student routes, where that route requires an applicant to demonstrate proficiency in the English language at a specified level or that they have gained a qualification that is equivalent to one obtained in the UK. There are a number of ways in which the English language proficiency test can be taken, using an academic qualification obtained in English and awarded by an educational establishment outside the United Kingdom.

Where an applicant is seeking to demonstrate that they have gained a qualification equivalent to one obtained in the UK, or their proficiency in the English language by using an academic qualification obtained outside the UK, these must be provided by Ecctis Ltd. Ecctis Ltd provides these services through a concession contract with the Home Office and has done so for over a decade.

It is important to be clear at this point that we are not introducing a new cost for applicants seeking to enter or remain in the UK: the requirement for applicants to use these services has existed for a number of years. Where a visa or nationality applicant uses the services provided by Ecctis, they apply through the website and pay an appropriate fee. The outcome of the assessment can take in the region of 10 working days for the English language assessment and around 30 working days for a qualification equivalency assessment. The maximum fee in this order for the qualification and English language proficiency assessment is set at £400. This will allow the Home Office to set fee levels later this year at the current levels, which are £140 for English language and £210 for the qualification equivalency assessment. By setting the maximum above this level, we have a reasonable degree of headroom to adjust fees if, for example, there is an increase in the cost of providing these services.

The Home Office is bringing this order forward today and legislation to regulate these fees now where they have already been charged and where the nature of the service itself, or the requirement in the Immigration Rules, have changed. This is due, again, to the department identifying, in the course of preparing for a reprocurement of the existing service earlier this year, that these fees should already have been regulated, due to the requirement to use the service in respect of applications on certain routes. Having identified this oversight, action was taken immediately to legislate at this earliest opportunity to ensure that the fees have an appropriate statutory footing, although this process was delayed, as indeed was the instrument we dealt with earlier, because of the general election in mid-2024.

Noble Lords will be aware that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew special attention to the Explanatory Memorandum that was published alongside this order, and produced a report on 10 October raising concerns that the Explanatory Memorandum did not provide a clear and open statement about why this instrument was brought forward. I fully appreciate the need for transparency. I recognise the committee’s view that further explanation of the context of this legislation was required, and my colleague the Minister for Migration and Citizenship sent a letter to the committee chair, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, on 15 October explaining in more detail why the order was brought forward now and the exploration of the possibility of pursuing retrospective legislation that would put fees paid to date on a statutory footing.

I am not yet able to confirm the specific approach to be taken on how we regulate those fees downstream and, given the uncertainty, it is not appropriate or helpful to go into further detail now. However, I emphasise that this department takes its responsibilities on parliamentary transparency seriously. I assure noble Lords that we are taking forward considerations in respect of previously charged fees as a priority and the intention of this order, subject to the approval of this House, is to lay an amendment to the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations in early December to set the fee levels that we have considered in the order today. I hope noble Lords will accept that we are trying to rectify an oversight that has crossed over from before the general election. We are regulating to close that loophole and I beg to move.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I cannot sit at the right desk, so I apologise for being in the wrong place.

I thank the Minister for explaining the reason for the order, although I think his description of “an oversight” for fees that have actually been charged illegally, because they were not approved by Parliament, is a bit of an understatement. I am also concerned that we still have no opportunity to see a new Explanatory Memorandum that sets out the record, but I will come back to that. I particularly thank the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for its careful and thoughtful third report of Session 2024-25.

However, before I come on to that, I want to note that this is the second Home Office SI on immigration matters that has come to Grand Committee since the Summer Recess which has not just been problematic. The other one—the Illegal Migration Act 2023 (Amendment) Regulations 2024—corrected policy matters in the Act that meant it could not be enacted because they were wrong, so it was also illegal. Therefore the amendments that the Grand Committee saw—I was going to say last month but it might have been a little before that—were to remove retrospective elements of the Illegal Migration Act that were themselves illegal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome this amendment order, which proposes to adjust the fees in relation to certain immigration and nationality services, and in particular the English language qualification process. It is one of the features of the complexities of the system that these kinds of situations arise, and I am not going to be critical of the Home Office for laying an amendment order in these circumstances. It is obviously right that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has picked up on a perception that Explanatory Notes did not set out in enough detail the purpose of the instrument. Perhaps the Minister could let us know whether it is proposed to provide revised Explanatory Notes and, if so, when. Perhaps he could also reassure the Committee on the quality of Explanatory Notes, which I know officials in the Home Office strive hard to ensure are accurate and detailed. I am sure that the Minister will take back to the department the message that crystal clarity is required in Explanatory Notes.

Of course, the fees structure is essential in maintaining a secure system of immigration control, and indeed provides an element of being self-funding. That, of course, itself achieves the kind of immigration system that we wish to see and strengthens British immigration policy. Therefore, I welcome the order and would be grateful for an answer in relation to Explanatory Notes.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to both opposition Front Benches for their comments. I find myself in the genuinely strange position of moving an order to rectify something that happened when we were nowhere near the legislation that is being rectified. I hope that both opposition Front Benches will recognise the fact that my honourable friend Seema Malhotra bringing forward this order in the Commons and me doing so in in the Lords are attempting to rectify an issue that was spotted prior to the general election, which would have been brought forward had the general election not been held in July.

I genuinely cannot say with any certainty why the fees for the services were not regulated when they were first set out. The rules relate to the historic nature of the issue and potential changes in a complex interaction of regulations at the time. I do not know why that happened but I am grateful that previous Ministers, with the advice of civil servants who have reviewed this as part of the procurement exercise that commenced earlier this year, have noticed a gap and therefore have asked Ministers to sign off the measures that will close that gap. Minister Malhotra, who is the lead Minister for this area in the Commons, and myself as the responsible Minister here in this House, have both agreed to take this order through accordingly.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that there are no issues on the quality of the education and training provided under the orders. I am not aware of a slew of complaints about the fee levels in the past. This is simply an order to rectify what was seen to be an illegality. The Committee should welcome that and understand that that is why this order is being brought forward.

The regulations are being laid at the earliest opportunity to begin the process of rectifying the issue that has been identified. I want to assure this Committee that structures and processes are in place to ensure that the fees for new visa routes and requirements are captured in the immigration and nationality fees regulations when associated changes are made to the Immigration Rules. As has been mentioned, we are hoping to bring forward at an early opportunity, we hope before Christmas, the revised fee structure to rectify where we are currently. That will, I hope, set those fees on a proper legal footing and rectify the challenges that we have had to date.

Again, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, mentioned the sharing of information between Administrations. I find that hard. I was in Parliament in 2008. I was in the Ministry of Justice then, not the Home Office, but to be honest with her, I cannot really answer on what happened in 2008 in the Home Office with this order and its background at that time. I can simply say to her again that it is unusual for previous Administrations’ paperwork to be passed to a subsequent Administration. It did not happen in 2010 and it is not happening now. I can ask questions of officials and get good responses about issues but there is not an automatic assumption of access to previous papers. That might be something to be considered but that is a far greater sandwich display than we have before us today, if I may put it that way.

I note and take the noble Baroness’s point. However, we have to reflect on the fact that this measure is brought forward as a joint enterprise between two Administrations handing over a baton to rectify a particular problem identified previously, which this Administration are now taking forward.

Both noble Lords asked about the Explanatory Memorandum. Again, it is important to recognise that it was not the best Explanatory Memorandum in place. It is what it is now. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked about a review. For the Home Office, and for other departments, given the view of statutory instruments and the importance of SIs to both Houses of Parliament, the new Government have asked for a Minister to be appointed in each department with oversight of the statutory instrument process. I am that Minister now in the Home Office, and I have to look at, clear and be held to account for the SIs that come through any part of the Home Office department. They will have to be cleared and signed by myself. That does not guarantee—because we are all human—that something that I see and clear is going to be perfect. But I hope it gives oversight to that process, which we have not had before. The Leader of the House of Commons, Lucy Powell MP, has been clear that both Houses of Parliament need to up their game on the Explanatory Memoranda, the oversight and the accountability of SIs to both Houses. Four months into the job, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, to give me space but to hold me to account in due course, as I know she will, on the performance on SIs particularly.

If there are further points that I have missed, I will reflect on them with colleagues and respond in writing, certainly to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. I hope that we can agree this order today and rectify the gap that has been identified. I look forward to bringing forward future SIs to continue that process in relation to the meat of this order.

Motion agreed.

Hezbollah: Threat to the United Kingdom

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Godson, for securing this debate, and to all noble Lords who spoke. I have a little more time than I initially anticipated to respond to the points made. I hope I can cover them in that time. A lot of ground has been covered, but it is worth reflecting back.

I note the points made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Helic and Lady Fox, on the reasons why Hezbollah was proscribed in the first place. It was proscribed as an external security organisation in 2001, the entire military wing was proscribed in 2008, and it was proscribed in its entirety in 2019. I put on the record that this reflects the assessment that was made then by the previous Government that the political and military wings were no longer distinguishable and the whole organisation was concerned with terrorism.

It is important that I begin my response to the noble Lord, Lord Godson, by reflecting upon that because, when Hezbollah was proscribed in 2019, this House heard about the organisation’s long history of involvement in terrorism; I note the reflections of the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, on those issues. The Home Secretary then was extremely clear that Hezbollah was an organisation that was committed to armed combat, that violently opposed the Israeli people, that destabilised a fragile Middle East, and whose terrorist attacks had reached into Europe. I hope that reassures the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, that this new Government share that assessment and that view.

Hezbollah has been involved in, or responsible for, numerous atrocities over decades. Hezbollah’s attacks on Israel over the past year, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, have driven more than 60,000 people from their homes, and the terrorist violence directed by Hezbollah over many years is, quite simply, unacceptable and intolerable—that view is shared across this House. This House should support the proscription, as it has previously.

It is important to put on the record that proscription is a powerful counterterrorism tool. It sends not only a strong message but a message about the morals of this House, this Government and the cross-party consensus on that. That has served not just in this context but in others, as was mentioned by a number of noble Lords and noble Baronesses across this House. It is right that the Government call out terrorism wherever it exists in the world. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, that this Government share the aspiration that the first duty of government is to protect its citizens from attack. I hope that that is not a dividing line between the noble Baroness and this Government, because we will not stand for terrorist attacks on our people or for organisations permitting the undertaking of terrorist attacks.

The UK’s proscription regime is respected around the world, and I say to my noble friend Lord Browne that it is an opportunity for us to ensure that proscription does in fact make it harder for Hezbollah to finance and fundraise. It makes its assets subject to seizure as terrorist property, and it makes it an offence to wear clothing or carry articles in a public way to arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of Hezbollah. Those linked to Hezbollah may be excluded from the UK using immigration powers. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that those are severe and strong penalties, and it is the job of the law enforcement agencies to make and continue that assessment. RICU, which has been mentioned in this debate, continues to make ongoing assessments of these matters, reporting to Ministers across government. Those are key issues that we need to reflect on concerning the powers that can be exercised by this Government.

A number of issues were raised, and I will refer to each in turn. First, what are the Government doing to tackle individuals who support terrorist organisations such as Hezbollah in the UK and online? The tools and powers captured in government policy on Pursue, Prevent, Protect and Prepare are flexible and agile enough to make the assessment—with the support of the security services, the crime agencies and RICU—to ensure that the Government can tackle all forms of terrorism, including support for proscribed organisations.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Godson, I say that this House should note that, since October last year, there has been a 15% increase in intelligence submissions following the 7 October attacks, compared with the same period the previous year. By June, the national counterterrorism referral unit had received more than 3,000 public referrals relating to the conflict between Israel and Hamas. We will take those issues into account, assess them and examine them in key ways. Some of those were due to other forms of radicalisation, but certainly there is an assessment that that pressure is still there, which is why proscription exists to date.

The noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Carlile, mentioned the relationship with Lebanon. I think they would wish it to be reconfirmed that the UK Government have given aid to the Lebanese authorities of some £10 million in the last month to respond to issues of shelter and reduced access to clean water. But there is a need to ensure that we have that dialogue and communication, which were mentioned, to tackle some of the long-term areas of concern. To do that, we need a dividing line—and proscription is it—between this Government, their international responsibilities and organisations that seek to commit terrorism.

That brings me on to the assessment, rightly mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Godson, made by the director-general of MI5, who outlined on 8 October that, since the start of 2022, the UK has responded to 20 Iran-backed plots presenting potentially lethal threats to British citizens and UK residents. This debate is on Hezbollah, but he has mentioned the link with Iran, and it is important that we recognise that link to date.

We have been clear that the behaviour of the Iranian regime, including the actions of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, poses a threat to the safety and security of the United Kingdom and our allies. That is why we will continue to take strong action and hold the Iranian regime to account. More than 450 Iranian individuals and entities have been sanctioned to date, including the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps in its entirety. As the Home Office, we will lead work on countering those Iranian state threats, making use of the full breadth—and please understand what I mean by that—of expertise of this Government and our world-class intelligence services and law enforcement agencies.

A specific question was asked about proscribing the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. I am clear that Iran has malign activities and those activities, including the work of the IRGC, are unacceptable. We will continue to keep the full range of tools and powers available to us to tackle the threats that we face from Iran under continuous review. Both the noble Baronesses, Lady Foster of Aghadrumsee and Lady Foster of Oxton, raised a similar issue and both understand, I hope, what that sentence means in terms of our continued assessment of those powers.

My noble friend Lord Browne, among others, mentioned policing of public disorder and the response by police officers to particular protests. As someone who has taken part in many a protest, not necessarily on this topic, I fully accept, understand, respect and wish to have the right of peaceful protest entrenched in our society, but that does not extend to criminal activity. The proscription order on Hezbollah sets down certain actions which are dividing lines between peaceful protest and criminal activity and spreading hate. I say to my noble friend who raised the issue of comments that he has reported from police officers that I think we should give the police powers to act on criminality when they make that judgment. It is not for me, as a Minister, to determine whether a criminal act has taken place, but it is for the police to make their judgments, to use the powers that are there independently—rightly—of government operationally to ensure that if criminal activity in protests takes place, it is dealt with by the police authorities.

Overall, our priority as a Government is to ensure that the decisions that we take strengthen the UK’s national security and support our intelligence services and law enforcement agencies. However, I am sure that noble Lords will understand, and I hope that they will bear with me on this, that many of the points raised about operational issues of the monitoring and deliberation by our security services are ones on which I cannot comment because I do not wish to give succour to anyone. We cannot routinely comment on whether groups are being considered for proscription; we cannot routinely comment on operational activities. However, the National Security Act 2023 provides a significant toolkit for us to fight against individuals working for state entities, like the IRGC, and the UK is now a harder target than it was two years ago. We will continue to keep under review hostile acts against this United Kingdom, including espionage, interference in our political system, sabotage and, indeed, assassination. I hope that noble Lords can be assured that the full armoury of government powers is continually being monitored. Ministers will be kept informed and will report to this House in the event of any changes or decisions on policy issues as a result of that monitoring.

The noble Lords, Lord Carlile and Lord Godson, mentioned Prevent. It is important that we look at the Government’s Prevent programme in the broader sense; it is at the core of reducing the threat from terrorism in the United Kingdom, not just from Hezbollah but across the board. It will continually evolve, and the Shawcross inquiry in February 2023 had 34 recommendations to the previous Government about how Prevent can be improved. We have met 33 of those recommendations. It is important, and transparency is important, but we will soon release further statistics on the referral period from April 2023 to March 2024 in a new publication. I hope, again, that this will be something that this House can scrutinise.

In closing—my 13 minutes are coming to an end— I thank the noble Lord, Lord Godson, for shining a light on the issues in this debate, and thank Members who have contributed. It is of the utmost importance that the Government focus on the security of our citizens at home and abroad and the security of our allies at home and abroad. For this Government, and indeed any Government, the top priority will always be the security of our country and safety of our citizens. Through the deployment of the tools we have, we as a new Government have a resolute commitment to tackling terrorism in all its forms.