Immigration System

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, immigration—this is not about asylum, which is a separate matter—involves a sort of contract between the immigrant and the host country. Each has a part to play, and each should be positive.

We used to talk more than we seem to now, often in the context of the benefits of overseas students in our universities, about the contribution to soft power played by welcoming people to our country, as well as what immigrants—who included my grandparents—contributed to the UK. I am glad that this was acknowledged by the Home Secretary in the Statement, though I am not convinced that the White Paper entirely reflects that, but I have to say I am shocked by some of the language used by the Prime Minister. Both words and tone are important.

I did not follow the logic of the White Paper. Supporting growth, housing and other construction and hospitality and tourism, for instance, require skills that are not at the highest level and work that can be hard but not skilled. Employers who recruit from overseas would not recognise this as the easy option, given the paperwork involved, and certainly not cheap, with high visa fees and the skills charge. Can the Minister tell us how much is expected to be raised by the increase in that charge and invested in training?

I do not accept that carers are unskilled; rather, their skills are not ones that we have traditionally valued. Better payment—the Minister will be aware of the Liberal Democrat policy of a higher minimum wage for carers—and our respect are due. Although the White Paper acknowledges that, the conclusion that overseas recruitment should end is perverse and damaging to carers and to clients. There is abuse by some employers in this and other sectors, but the response reads too much like victim blaming. Can the Minister tell us the timeframes for the fair pay agreements mentioned? I would also be interested in how the Government respond to concern that more and more pensioners will be exhausting their savings on care.

I look forward to migrant workers being given more control over who they work for, reducing opportunities for exploitation. We hope to explore that through amendments to the forthcoming borders Bill, as well as issues around family reunion, about which we have significant concerns. What consultation will there be regarding changes to family migration? What does proper integration support—to use the terminology—look like? Can the Minister clarify at what point in the immigration process, as distinct from citizenship, English language will be tested?

There is to be a new temporary shortage occupation list, including jobs critical to the industrial strategy, which the Minister may say addresses my earlier point, and to an extent perhaps it does. Does temporary mean a temporary list or temporary for the worker? Is it the list that will apply for asylum seekers when they are allowed to work, which should be much sooner than currently while waiting for a decision?

Indefinite leave to remain will “take account” of the applicant’s contribution. How is that to be measured? Five years is apparently not enough. Is it a matter of salary? How much discretion will there be? What data will the Home Office publish in the interests of transparency?

I return to some of the rhetoric. One gentleman has emailed me about how difficult it is for him and his partner—who he tells me arrived in the UK legally, paid visa fees, paid the NHS surcharge and has no recourse to public funds—to read that she is regarded as causing “incalculable damage”. Regardless of the detail, he says,

“it makes us feel unwelcome in the UK”.

These policies affect UK citizens too.

The White Paper refers to many further policies to come. There is a lot to follow up, with a lot of people uncertain, anxious and feeling threatened about their future, and many having thought that their future was clear. I hope there is a lot of consultation to come before policy is set in stone.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to both the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for their contributions, and I will try to answer them. I hope I do not surprise the noble Lord by saying that I am not going to go over the previous Government’s record; I will let that speak for itself. We can all make judgments on that. Government is a difficult place, but there are decisions that the previous Government took in all their forms from 2010 that we disagreed with, though there were things that we supported too, and we are where we are now.

We are trying to put a framework around some key decisions that the UK has to take in relation to the points before us in the White Paper. The key principles in the White Paper are that we need to reduce net migration substantially. We are potentially looking the number of visas issued to fall by up to 100,000 a year by the end of this Parliament as a result of the changes.

We need to link immigration to the UK skills strategy. We need to ensure that we create fair, effective and strictly enforced rules, and that includes what I would term good labour values to ensure that we do not have exploitative workforce practices, we do not have foreign-national criminals who continue to commit crime in our country and we do not have people working undercover because of their illegal entry to the UK. They are good values to ensure that we support work and the workforce as a whole.

It is also a good value that we extend the hand of friendship to those who have lived here, come here and worked here, but also we need to support integration and community cohesion. We need to ensure particularly that we empower Parliament to give a clear definition of family life and that the Immigration Rules are clear for all.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, has mentioned three particular areas, which I will try to respond to. First, should we place a cap on migration and put that figure in there for the Government to be held to? We have taken the decision that we are not going to put a figure on that cap, but we are going to try to keep reviewing all the time the impact of the policies in this White Paper with the objective of reducing net migration over a period of time. Caps have proved a challenge in the past as an area where Governments have failed to hit targets so, while we can debate it and argue about it, that is the decision that we have taken.

Secondly, should we disapply legislation such as the ECHR and other legislation? The Government will abide by our international obligations. We do not intend to withdraw from those obligations, but we will look at, and will consult on, how we apply those obligations in a UK context. There may be room for us to look at that in detail, but there is no indication whatever that we are going to withdraw from those, nor would we wish to, because those are our international obligations and they should be met.

The noble Lord mentioned the visa changes. There will be consultations. A number of the measures in the White Paper will require legislation in this House, either at SI level, at rules level or in primary legislation, and there will be an opportunity for consultation, discussion and contributions from both Houses of Parliament accordingly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, began by talking about the contribution of people who are immigrants to this country. I put on record how much I value those people who have come to this country to make their lives and to contribute. There are a range of services, public and private, where the contribution of people who have come to this country is central to public service, economic growth and business as a whole, and we need to recognise that.

However, we still need to have a system whereby we put some boundaries around migration and around supporting the development of UK society and its needs. There are 9 million people currently economically inactive in this country. What is the skills programme for those individuals? Can we get those people to do some of the work currently being done by people being brought into the country? That is an important issue.

I value very much the contribution of students and universities. We are not stopping students coming to the country, and we are not stopping universities having individuals come to the country. What we are doing is saying, “When you’ve finished your university course, we’re going to review the amount of time you can stay here before you need to make further applications along the lines of the immigration regime that we are putting in place in those areas”.

I know for a fact that we can probably count the number of Presidents, Prime Ministers and business leaders who have been to universities in this country and who value that experience and look back on this country as being the first step on their long road to success. That is important; we are not stopping that. We are simply putting in place an 18-month period after graduation which says that you have to then start look at reapplying, as opposed to being automatically able to stay.

The skills agenda is really important. As I have mentioned, there are a lot of unskilled people who can be brought into the market. Adult social care is important. We will be bringing forward rules to this House about changes in that sphere. However, it is important because a lot of people have abused the adult social care route and we are trying to put some rigour and order into it.

The noble Baroness mentioned exploitation. I am pleased to see the former Prime Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady May. It is important that modern slavery issues, which the noble Baroness, Lady May, championed in the other House in government both as Home Secretary and as Prime Minister, are put into measures that ensure we strengthen that route to avoid exploitation. We need to examine the issues of people coming here illegally, working illegally and being exploited by domestic employment orders, because that undercuts people who are doing legitimate work and legitimate businesses. That is a key issue for the Government.

We will be consulting on the measures the noble Baroness outlined and we will certainly examine in full any representations made. But the Government have to set out a direction of travel. One of the key things we have to do is set out a direction of travel and put some order into the system. Not everybody is going to agree with the direction of travel or the order we put in. But it is important that we have stronger control of our borders and stronger employment and training opportunities for all, that we still attract high level of talent and that we are still open for students to come and for businesses to invest. However, there has to be a framework around that, and the White Paper intends to provide that framework.

Finally, those who have indefinite leave to remain can currently apply for naturalisation after five years, but we have a 10-year proposed ceiling in the White Paper. We are going to look at transition arrangements and make sure we try to give opportunities for further consultation on points to do with naturalisation that we know are important to this House, the House of Commons and, most of all, to people who are here already. That will be subject to further consultation at an appropriate time.

I hope I have answered the questions the noble Lord and the noble Baroness raised, and I await further questions.

[Baroness May of Maidenhead (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his remarks about modern slavery. One way to bring down net migration is to ensure there is no abuse in the visa system. The White Paper touches on this, particularly in relation to student visas. A key way to ensure there is no abuse is to move away from a strict points-based system and give greater discretion to immigration officers. Are the Government doing that? If not, why not?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government want to try to operate a points-based system, but also to put some more rigour into the student post-graduation approach and to look at the fees around coming to the United Kingdom in the first place. The White Paper includes a shortening of the period after graduation. It includes a points-based system examining what skills are required. It gives a commission to the Migration Advisory Committee to look at what the skills shortages are. At the same, we are putting £625 million into skills and training in England to try to raise levels of skills so that graduates—with due respect to graduates—do graduate-level jobs and do not do jobs that can currently be filled by upskilling those who are currently economically inactive in the United Kingdom.

[The Lord Bishop of Lichfield]

My Lords, the White Paper rightly recognises the role that successful integration plays in enabling people to realise their full potential and increasing community cohesion. It particularly highlights the importance of language learning. Yet this, though important, is not the sole factor that influences the extent to which someone is successfully integrated in society. Successful integration is multifaceted. It requires, for example, the provision of adequate housing, employment opportunities, social networks and the ability to navigate services. A more holistic approach to integration is needed—one that extends beyond the development of language skills. What consideration are the Government giving to introducing more expansive measures to facilitate successful integration?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The right reverend Prelate makes an important point. Integration is about communities reaching out and understanding each other’s differences, but looking at the areas they share and making sure that the pressures on any area of migration do not destabilise the community that those people who have come to this country are part of. That means that we need to make assessments of housing and public services, as well as employment. That is key to the details of the White Paper as a whole.

There will be further examination of the structural needs the right reverend Prelate has outlined and the need for, in our view, better performance on English language for people who are here. By better performance on English language, I am not downplaying the native language of anybody who comes here, but the ability to converse with fellow citizens is critical to integration. That is why we are putting emphasis on that in the White Paper. The points the right reverend Prelate mentioned are also equally important.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the measured tone my noble friend used in answering the question a few minutes ago. However, there are things about the White Paper which cause concern. Do we still have to include students in our net immigration figures? I know we have debated this before, but it seems that, if we could exclude students, the figures would be a bit more honest. I welcome the emphasis on the English language, but I am concerned about the way in which we have used expressions to describe what is going on. Integration in our local communities is surely helped if we have moderate language—the Minister himself used moderate language—to describe the whole immigration situation. In the last few days things have been said which, frankly, have not helped with the process of integration.

May I make two further quick comments? First, I am concerned about social care. I understand the arguments, but it may well be that our social care system, which is already in a state of collapse, will collapse even further. We need some sensitivity on that issue. Finally, on Article 8 and asylum seekers, I hope the Minister can give us more assurance on how this will work. It is mentioned in the White Paper and I hope he will give us further assurance that there will be no inadvertent knock-on from the White Paper into our policy on asylum seekers and refugees.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As I have said—I hope I can say this again for the benefit of the House—students contribute to the cultural, economic and soft power of the United Kingdom. We have welcomed students and we will continue to welcome students. But we also have to look at the impact of students on the migration system. At the moment, many students stay in the United Kingdom beyond graduation. What we are trying to do in the White Paper is reduce the time they can automatically stay on and put in place a number of caveats so people will then have to go through the normal migration system and being a student is not seen as a back-door way of coming to the United Kingdom in the longer term. That is a reasonable proposal, which does not stop our soft power or investment in universities but looks at what students do in the long term.

I take the point that my noble friend made about language, which is important. It is really important that we focus on what the Government are trying to do. The five key principles that I have set out are the direction of travel. We want to see better integration. I am pleased that my noble friend mentioned that language is important to that, but integration is also, to go back to the point made by the right reverend Prelate, about churches and other faiths talking to each other. It is about neighbourhoods being mixed neighbourhoods, and about understanding and respecting differences in our culture. At the same time—and this is where the Government are coming from—it is about trying to put a framework around all that to ensure that there is some level of management and control over how immigration is used and how our skills base is raised. I hope that that reassures my noble friend. I shall look at all the points that he has mentioned and continue to have a dialogue with him, because I know that it is a matter of some importance to him.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

I should like to declare an interest as president of Migration Watch UK. Indeed, I have spent 24 years on this subject, but I promise to be extremely brief today.

Much of what the Minister said has addressed the issues that we now face. What this discussion has not faced is the sheer scale of the problems that have emerged in recent years. We had net migration of nearly 1 million in one year, and 700,000 in the subsequent year. These are immense changes, and I welcome the remarks that the Prime Minister made that show some understanding of public opinion on this, which is now becoming very strong.

I make just one point to the Minister, which is that he is going to need a target. I understand very much the breadth of what he has covered and his reluctance to set a target, because it makes life very difficult in future years, but if he wants to persuade the public that he is serious about this, he had better have a target and get very close to it.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government have made a judgment, and in the White Paper we are trying to make a judgment about a number of issues. There is legal migration and the issues of who comes, how they come and under what circumstances. We are trying to put a framework around that, which also tries to raise the level of skills of English and British-based citizens who are currently economically inactive to try to meet some of our skills shortage. We are trying to put a target around the impact of universities, both on soft power issues and on longer-term investment in skills and what people do in graduate-level jobs afterwards.

We are trying to look at a range of issues around integration and community coherence, which I think resonates with what the noble Lord has said. But I do not think that setting a target would be a good thing. For us, it is the wrong issue; we are trying to ensure that we put a framework in place to manage those pressures, and to look at what the UK economy needs, at how we build those skills and at how we build integration. Outside of that legal migration route, there is the real challenge, which I know the noble Lord is also concerned about, of illegal migration. A whole range of measures will come before this House very shortly, on 2 June, in the immigration and borders Bill around what we need to do to stop illegal migration and put it to one side.

There are immense challenges, but I hope that noble Lords and noble Baronesses can not only look at the White Paper and be critical of it in parts but look at it in terms of how we are trying to develop a framework and contribute positively to it, rather than look at what is not in it.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, two years ago, during the passage of the Illegal Migration Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and I raised the issue that Home Office assessors were muddling up the Hong Kong BNO passport holders with being asylum seekers. I am very grateful to the then Government for correcting that and ensuring that guidance was issued. Yesterday’s White Paper, in simplifying the routes to citizenship, appears to have put the BNO passport holders back in the same group again, as if they were economic migrants and asylum seekers. Given that the status of BNO passports is completely different from that of asylum seekers, will the Minister agree to meet me, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and Hong Kong Watch as a matter of urgency?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I shall certainly meet the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Dare I say I have had some correspondence over the past 24 hours on this matter. We will reflect on it and, without any commitment, I shall certainly listen to the noble Baroness’s representations.

[Lord Boateng (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK’s world-class creative industries require a globally diverse workforce. Will the Minister give the industry and the general public the reassurance that the qualifications required under any future visa regime will take into account the specific nature of the creative industries—because you do not need a degree to be a great dancer or a great violinist? I declare my interest as a member of the boards of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and the Ballet Rambert.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I take on board what my noble friend said. I am very interested in culture as a whole—you do not need a degree to be a great footballer either. I understand that, but again, we are looking at these issues and trying to put some framework around it. I have heard what my noble friend said. Again, this will form part of an opportunity to consult on how this develops in due course, but he has made a point that is worthy of examination.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, the White Paper is about controlling immigration. Will the Government have the ability to control the number of visas in each category, and will they exercise that control—and, if not, why not?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The answer is yes.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

My Lords, there is an acute shortage in the social care sector. Will the Minister recognise that the policies in the White Paper will actually make that shortage even worse? We hear some talk about making the social care sector more attractive. Can he give us any kind of indication of when changes will take place to make the wages in social care attractive enough to bring people away from the retail sector, and to provide it with a proper career structure and the proper dignity and respect that it ought to have?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

We will make changes to the Immigration Rules relating to the social care sector during the course of this year, but we are also putting in place a transitional period. There is a need to ensure that we try to meet any shortfall in social care requirements from within the existing UK workforce—that is the objective of government policy. I am happy to discuss with my colleagues and the social care sector how we improve recruitment and other issues, and we will do that through other government departments. The key thing is that we cannot rely completely on overseas labour to fill the UK social care sector.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the Statement and the White Paper both refer to illegal and irregular migration, which is better than what we have heard recently—lumping them both into illegal. Can the Minister confirm that it is legal to enter a country to seek asylum—although, obviously, if it is refused then the person must leave? Can he also clarify the Government’s understanding of the difference between illegal and irregular migration?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Baroness again presses me on that issue, which is absolutely her right. We are trying to ensure that people who have an asylum claim or seek refugee status can have that claim assessed within the United Kingdom or with our partners in the European Union. We are having great discussions as well with the French, Belgians, Dutch and Germans about irregular and illegal migration.

There is a real difference. If somebody claims asylum, that needs to be considered and processed—and, if processed, that needs to be given, if approved. If it is not approved, that person needs to be removed. That is a reasonable and fair thing for Governments to do. Irregular migration, as the noble Baroness will know, is also an issue that the Government will examine, because a whole range of people are seeking refugee status or other things—and there are people trying to enter illegally across the channel. We are having to try to address all those issues.

The Government are putting more rigour into that formal border control at the channel to stop small boats, and we are putting those measures in the Bill that will be before the House very shortly. We are also trying to speed up asylum claims so that they are processed much more quickly to remove people from hotels. At the same time, we are trying to make sure that we continue to meet our international obligations. No one has said that that is easy, but I hope that the White Paper gives some new direction and routes to how we can do it more effectively.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

When the Minister comes to report to the House in a couple of years’ time, what will success for this package of measures look like? With the present policies, the current projection from the ONS is that we will have net migration annually of 340,000 going forward. What number will we hear from the Minister when he says, “We have already pulled it off; this has been really worth while”? If he is not prepared to say that number—and I strongly suspect that he is not—why should anybody in the country, in red-wall, blue-wall or any other seats, believe that this is not just another attempt to kick the can down the road?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord tries very well and very effectively to tempt me to talk about a cap or a figure that we are putting on success. Success for me is that we have a properly ordered, understood, managed system where people who wish to come to this country to work can understand clearly what the rules are; that we have rules that encourage the development of UK-based skills; that we have rules that do not deter people from enjoying the benefits of UK university education but at the same time put some strictures on when and how they should be employed afterwards or leave; and that we begin to tackle the issue of illegal migration in a fair and effective way, but allow people to seek asylum and have that asylum processed. That way, in three years’ time, I will stand here and be able to say to the noble Lord that, while he may not like the framework, there is a clear framework in place that tries to determine how we control our borders rather than just using rhetoric to try to control our borders.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, yesterday the Joint Committee on Human Rights began its legislative scrutiny of the borders Bill. Among the issues raised is, inevitably, Article 8, which the noble Lord has referred to. Given that this is not about directives from the European court but about differences of opinion between lower and upper-tier tribunals within the United Kingdom, we would all welcome greater clarity about what the Government’s interpretation of Article 8 duties actually is. I hope that the noble Lord will therefore agree that, as part of his consultations, he and his department will engage with the Joint Committee and also clarify for us what will be laid before Parliament that is not in the Bill and what is in the White Paper that will affect our considerations when the Bill comes forward? Do those things not need to be woven together?

May I also endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said? I declare an interest as a patron of Hong Kong Watch. The Minister will have seen the letters and emails sent to him, not least from myself and the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes, deeply concerned about the reports of the backdating to 2020 of the situation of BNO holders in this country. No one could have integrated better. I salute what the previous Government did about the position of people escaping the tyranny of the Hong Kong dictatorship imposed by the CCP. I hope that the present Government will honour the commitments that were given to the BNO holders who arrived in this country legitimately and legally and will not in any way renege on the promises that were made.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hope that I can again reassure the noble Lord that we will continue to operate the resettlement and community sponsorship schemes, such as Homes for Ukraine and the Hong Kong BNO scheme. We will set out how we do that later on. I will agree to meet, as I have said with the Minister, to hear those concerns, but we will set those things out in due course.

On the Article 8 provisions, we want to try to ensure that it is the Home Office that, according to rules agreed by Parliament, determines how we deal with the European Convention on Human Rights while maintaining our membership of it. Therefore, rather than each individual case being subject to a fresh interpretation of Article 8, we will try and set down some general guidance on that as a whole, which I hope helps the noble Lord with his question.

I add one final thing, which is an important thing for our office. Mya Eastwood, who has been my principal private secretary since 4 July, is leaving tomorrow. I just want to pay my tribute to her, because a lot of work that goes on front of House is supported by officials back of House. Mya has done an excellent job, and I want to put that on the record today before I sit down.

Pensioners: Shoplifting

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sikka]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to address the reported increase in shoplifting by pensioners.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

My Lords, all shop theft is unacceptable, and we are taking action to drive down retail crime. However, there is no official data to give an accurate assessment of the age of those who commit shop theft. Today—as we speak—the Home Office is once again hosting the Retail Crime Forum, which brings together representatives from the retail sector, security providers and law enforcement agencies.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, poverty is a major cause of shoplifting. The full state pension of £11,973 is less than 50% of the minimum wage and is received by less than 30% of pensioners. Despite benefits, 2 million pensioners live in poverty, and over 100,000 a year die in fuel poverty. The loss of the winter fuel payment, unchecked profiteering and frozen income tax allowances will only worsen matters. The Minister has the power to reduce pensioner poverty by aligning the state pension with the living wage. When will he do that?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The survey that has generated this Question was undertaken by one security firm, which found that only 5% of “pensioners” were undertaking shop theft. It defined “pensioners” as people aged over 50. It was complete, false nonsense, so before we go any further, let us just kill right now the argument that pensioners are a particular focus for shop theft. They are not. It is criminal organised gangs and that is where the Government are focused.

My noble friend mentioned a range of issues to do with challenges that pensioners face. We are protecting the poorest pensioners through the winter fuel allowance, ensuring that we can maintain the triple lock, and supporting pensioners generally. Even with all those measures, it is not acceptable for anybody to walk into a shop and steal something off the shelf, because that is a criminal act and it ensures costs go up for everybody else, including pensioners who obey the law. It is not acceptable, and I hope that we can focus in the Crime and Policing Bill on how we tackle shop theft as a whole.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I note that the Minister is about to have a meeting with a group of people dealing with this issue. Can he assure me that the trade union movement will be involved in that? I spent some time working for the Co-op many years ago. It is very frightening when people walk into a shop where you are employed and steal—that is what it is—the merchandise. Can I have an assurance that the trade union movement will be included in his consultation?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I should declare an interest in that I am a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, and have been since 1979. I am fully in contact with the members of that union, who do a great job in supporting shop staff and shop presence. What staff should not face is attacks from individuals when they uphold the law on cigarette sales, alcohol sales or other sales. In fact, I moved an amendment some years ago to ensure that protection was in place. It was defeated by the then Conservative Government. I am very proud to say that I shall be moving the same Motion in the Crime and Policing Bill and that it will be passed by my colleagues.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, retailers often choose not to involve police when pensioners are caught shoplifting. Will the Minister discuss this issue with the College of Policing to ensure there is a consistent and fair approach to all offenders; balancing compassion for those who are in genuine hardship with the need for deterrence and public confidence in the justice system?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Under the last Government, the National Police Chiefs’ Council produced a retail crime action plan, which is now around two years old. It includes a range of measures on how we can reduce shop theft across the board, but also looking at specific sectors. We have backed that up with a £7 million fund this year to support action on shop theft in town centres in particular.

I accept that there are a range of reasons why individuals undertake shop theft. Some are in criminal gangs, some are fuelling addiction problems, and some, as my noble friend mentioned, do so for reasons to do with poverty. We need to address all those issues but, ultimately, we should have no tolerance of shop theft as a whole, because it costs society, costs us as individuals, and is a crime that is seen as being victimless when it certainly is not. By all means, let us look at the individual circumstances, but our advice to police forces is to focus on this as a serious issue, for growth in the economy and for the impact on our society as a whole.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I question my noble friend the Minister’s statement that the poorest pensioners have been protected through the winter fuel abolition. The poorest pensioners are the 700,000 entitled to pension credit who do not claim it, and they are not getting the winter fuel payment.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend will know that Ministers in the DWP and the Treasury are very cognisant of the need to ensure we have an uptake by people who need and qualify for the winter fuel payment who currently do not have it. My understanding is that the DWP has written to all those pensioners. There have been some difficult decisions; let us not get away from that. I lost my winter fuel payment. Should I, as a Minister of the Crown, have that additional payment? No. Should millionaires have that additional payment? No. But the Government are determined to support poorer members of the community and poorer pensioners. That is what we are trying to do.

[Lord Cameron of Lochiel (Con)]

My Lords, it is imperative that those working in shops, and retail workers in general, are protected in the face of significant levels of aggressive behaviour and violence in so-called kamikaze shoplifting raids. I know that the Government plan to bring in a new specific offence of assaulting retail workers. However, new laws like that work only when the police are there to enforce them. Can the Minister confirm that the number of new police officers entering the front line will be sufficient to help tackle the crime of shoplifting in general?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I shall say two things to the noble Lord, and I hope he can support the Government on this. We have put in an extra £1 billion of funding into policing this year, over and above what was in last year. We are funding 3,000 extra neighbourhood police officers this year. The plan is to fund 13,000 neighbourhood police officers over the course of this Parliament. I was Police Minister in 2010. In 2011, 20,000 police officers were lost, and that has had a big impact on capacity over that time. I say to the noble Lord that people who undertake violence and ram raids are criminal organised gangs and the police need to focus on that, but neighbourhood policing can also help in improving relationships and highlighting the fact that shop theft, be it one cup of coffee, a jar of coffee or a ram raid full of alcohol, meat and expensive products, is taken seriously by the police.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I think the Government’s plan is a good one; there is nothing wrong with the plan. What has happened over the years is that we used to get reports of shoplifting only when they caught the offender, so the police went, and we had a very good detection rate because the offender was presented. What has happened over time is that CCTV and other devices have captured shoplifters who have left the premises. The determinant is whether the police attend. If they attend, they have a good chance of catching them there or using the evidence that is available. Particularly for shop workers, where violence has been used, somebody follows up. I think that what has happened over time is that there has not been the follow-up. That needs to happen. If it happened to be a pensioner who was the offender, they might actually catch them.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I agree strongly with the noble Lord that it is extremely important that all offences are registered. That is a responsibility on shops as well as on the police force and on us as a community as a whole. We need to know the level and scale of the problem. I am pleased to report that there has been an increase in the number of arrests and prosecutions for shop theft over the past six months, and that is a direction of travel that I hope we can continue, because it is important that we address criminal gangs. However, if individuals are stealing because of alcohol or drug misuse or because of not being able to afford to live, those are other issues that we need to register, address and work with the rest of society to resolve.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, there was a lot of public concern about the policy, which it seems that the previous Government were complicit in, that there would be an arbitrary threshold in terms of shoplifting before proceedings would take place. Can my noble friend confirm that that is totally against current government policy and that we will encourage police forces to prosecute in all such cases?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

In 2014, the then Government introduced a £200 threshold, which meant that police forces were, in effect, told to disregard shop theft below £200. I was the shadow Police Minister in 2014, and I opposed that measure. I am pleased to say that in the Crime and Policing Bill that will be coming before this House very shortly that £200 threshold will be scrapped. It might have taken 11 years to get to that position, but it is 11 years that have changed because there was an election victory on 4 July last year.

Telecommunications Fraud: Reimbursement of Victims

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 14th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they intend to take to ensure that technology and telecommunication firms contribute to the cost of fraud prevention and the reimbursement of victims of fraud that arises on their platforms.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

Through regulation, including the Online Safety Act, companies are now required to stop fraudsters abusing their business models. All parties with a role to play should prioritise tackling fraud, including the tech and telco sectors, which are key partners in the prevention of fraud. However, more can be done, and further action will be set out in the Government’s forthcoming fraud strategy.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. As noble Lords will be aware, banks now have to reimburse fraud victims. However, according to the PSR, over 70% of scams by volume originate online, 54% from Meta alone, and 31% of scams by value originate from telecoms companies. Yet, despite facilitating most of the scams, technology and telecoms companies have no liability for the losses and are subject only to voluntary charters. Indeed, one large telecoms company—let us name it: BT/EE—has started to charge extra to warn people that calls or texts might be a scam. The voluntary charters are clearly not working, so does the Minister agree that tech and telecom companies will take serious action only if they have a real financial liability for the losses, just like the banks do? Does he also agree that it is a disgrace that a company such as BT/EE is profiteering from scams, and will he take action to stop that before the others follow?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will certainly look separately into the noble Lord’s question in regard to BT and so on. He will be aware that since March 2025, Ofcom’s illegal content code of practice has come into effect. That means that platforms such as Meta and the others he has mentioned, which contribute through hosting illegal activity and significant levels of fraud, now have a mandate to proactively stop and remove fraudulent content, or else they will face fines and other potential measures. The noble Lord mentioned the disparity between the banks and the platforms. We have the Online Safety Act, which has only just come into effect, and we have potential areas to look at in the fraud strategy. I am aiming to publish the fraud strategy at the end of this year and early next year at the latest. We are working through that currently, and I keep all options open.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Is the Minister aware that there are still too many rural areas in the United Kingdom where the reception, both telephonic and in respect of all other modern machinery, is not viable? Will he therefore call in the senior directors of those companies to make sure that the push that is supposed to be happening is actually happening on the ground?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will certainly look at that point. It is not within my direct responsibility, because this Question is about fraud. I live in a semi-rural area in north Wales myself and those issues are important, but they are not directly Home Office responsibilities. If the noble Lord will allow me, I will refer that matter to the appropriate Minister for somebody else to call in—I have enough people to call in on my own.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is about time that we treated social media as publishers and held them to the same account as we would do newspapers, et cetera? We have 14 years of lack of action on this. Should not the Government look at this again and try to deal with the problems that have just been raised?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend can rest assured that under the Online Safety Act, which passed with an element of cross-party support but which has now been implemented by this Government, we have put in place stringent standards whereby, if illegal, harmful and fraudulent content is hosted by companies and they do not remove it when requested to do so, they will face fines and penalties which are severe. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, we intend to keep that under review. We intend to look at how it is working, and if it is not working to a satisfactory level, we will take further action in the forthcoming fraud strategy paper that will be produced towards the end of this year.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, Facebook’s removal of fact-checkers from its platforms leaves people even more exposed, with a new person scammed every seven minutes. To make matters worse, Ofcom decided to delay implementing its codes of practice for paid-for fraudulent advertising. Does the Minister share my concern that this decision by Ofcom means that key parts of the Online Safety Act will not be fully enforced until at least 2027?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Baroness has mentioned the fraudulent advertising duty, which, again, is a key part of the Online Safety Act. Ofcom assures me that it will consult very shortly, towards the summer, on codes of practice that will look at the very issue that she has mentioned—the advertising duty—with an aim to publish the final advertising codes around this time next year.

[Lord Cameron of Lochiel (Con)]

My Lords, fraud of this kind targets some of the most vulnerable people in our society and causes considerable emotional as well as material harm. Given that 70% of fraud in the UK either originates overseas or has an international link, can the Minister update the House on how the Government are working with other countries to make sure that those abroad who are targeting people in this country are stopped?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Absolutely; that is an extremely valuable point. Again in the upcoming fraud strategy, we will look at a number of countries from which fraud emanates. We have put just under £1 million into supporting the United Nations conference on this very issue, which will be held next year; the UK is leading the charge on that. For those noble Lords who may have missed me, a couple of weeks ago I spent four days in Nigeria dealing with the Nigerian Government and, with them, signing a charter to look at joint co-operation on fraud that emanates from both our country and theirs collectively; that is the first of a number of charters and codes of practice that we will look at with other countries. This is an extremely important point: there are certain areas from which fraud emanates very strongly. We need an international response to what is an international criminal gang operation.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I recollect that, when I was a member of the special Select Committee on fraud, we had the privilege of hearing evidence from a representative of the company that was providing me with mobile telephony. Of course, the first sentence of the evidence that they gave was, “We take this issue very seriously”. I had in fact spent five hours, on a train from Scotland, reading the terms and conditions of my contract with the company; I suspect that no other Member of your Lordships’ House has done that. The word “fraud” appeared nowhere in the contract that I had with it. It would be simple for providers to make it clear to those to whom they give the privilege of using their system that, if they use it for fraud, not only will the contract be terminated but all other mobile providers will be told that they have that background. When we revise the fraud strategy, can we insist that that simple requirement is made of mobile providers?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

One key area that we are focusing on in the revised fraud strategy is data sharing. I want to ensure that telecoms companies, telecommunications providers, platforms, the police and others share data where there is fraudulent activity. I hope that Members will bear with me but, when the fraud strategy comes out in due course, data sharing and how we can improve it will be one of our key aims as a Government.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad that the Minister mentioned data sharing because, obviously, a lot of scams and fraud come through nuisance calls and texts. There is a no man’s land, as it were, between Ofcom and the Information Commissioner’s Office, so it vital that those two regulators work closely together. I hope that, as part of the fraud strategy, the Minister will illuminate how closely those two regulators are working together and perhaps commit to regular reports on how they are cracking down on nuisance calls and texts, which companies they are closing, whom they are fining and what impact they are having.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Absolutely. I am keen on having not just data sharing but data metrics and performance in the fraud strategy. The noble Lord’s point is extremely valid. There is a lot of good talk, but we need to measure action.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, if we had ID security on a cyber basis, much of this fraud would be diminished and would disappear?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes an interesting point; if he will let me, I will take it as a representation for consideration in the fraud strategy. The Government are keen to look at any measure that will reduce the level of fraud, which currently accounts for 41% of all crime; that impacts on businesses, on consumers, on government and, ultimately, on confidence and growth in our economy. Fraud is extremely important; I will examine the noble Lord’s suggestion.

Forensic Science Regulator Draft Code of Practice 2025 (Version 2)

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 14th May 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the draft Code of Practice and Regulations laid before the House on 20 and 31 March be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 12 May.

Forensic Science Regulator Draft Code of Practice 2025

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Monday 12th May 2025 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Forensic Science Regulator Draft Code of Practice 2025.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

My Lords, forensic science is an integral part of delivery of the criminal justice system in the 21st century. I am a devoted fan of television programmes on real crime in the evenings, and I can honestly say that I have not yet seen one where DNA, drug analysis, mobile phones, photos, messages, health apps or emails have not brought the criminals to justice. Bringing people to justice is absolutely central to what we do. I put on record my thanks to the police and forensic scientists in this country for all they do in delivering these crucial services.

The Government’s mission is to halve violent crime, halve violence against women and girls, and increase confidence in the police and criminal justice system. We are also consulting on a new national centre of policing to bring together crucial support services, including forensics, that local police forces can draw upon to raise standards and improve efficiency.

None of this can be done without access to high-quality and cost-effective forensic science. The Forensic Science Regulator Act 2021 was a significant milestone for forensic science in England and Wales. It established the Forensic Science Regulator as a statutory officeholder, giving it power to take action when it has reason to believe that forensic science activities are being conducted in such a way as to create a substantial risk to the course of justice. More pertinent to this Committee’s work today, the Act requires the regulator to produce a statutory code of practice. This code will formally define which forensic science activities will be regulated and set out the standards that forensic practitioners must meet.

The very first version of that code came into force under the previous Government in October 2023 following parliamentary approval. It was the first such statutory code anywhere in the world. We recognised that, due to the novelty of those statutory requirements, the regulator would have to examine a second version of the code in due course.

We have undertaken a consultation on version 2 of the code, which was launched in early 2024. This resulted in 1,230 comments from 96 respondents from a range of organisations and sectors, including law enforcement, academia and commercial providers. Policing and wider law enforcement constituted 64 of the 96 respondents. The regulator also held extensive discussions with specialist groups from across the forensics community. The result is that version 2 of the code is laid before us today.

Most of the changes are minor or technical and clarify existing provisions. Some practical issues that arose only when the first version of the code was implemented have now been addressed and rectified. The most significant change in version 2 of the code relates to the regulation of incident scene examination. For some time, concerns had been raised with the regulator by policing concerning the effectiveness of the incident scene examination requirements set out in version 1 of the code. Version 2 streamlines that process and will now require a corporate approach by each police organisation, and eliminates the need for individual assessments across 149 different sites. The regulator believes that this will save significant police staffing hours and should therefore be welcomed.

The new requirements set out in version 2 of the code have widespread support among forensic practitioners, forensic leaders and chief police officers, and should lead to significant savings for the police. Overall, version 2 of the code has been designed to continue to protect the integrity of the criminal justice system and to help guard against miscarriages of justice.

Finally, I put on record my thanks to Gary Pugh, the Forensic Science Regulator, who will be retiring towards the end of this year. During his term he has overseen the transition of the role to that of a statutory officeholder and produced the code of practice before us today. I commend this instrument to the Committee.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Wilcox of Newport) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is of note that the Minister, both opposition spokespeople and the chair are all Welsh, as we talk about forensic science. I wonder how often that happens.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, like the Minister, I too am a fan of forensic science. I well remember the introduction of DNA evidence during my police service in the mid-1980s, and of course some very challenging crimes have been solved by scientists using forensic science.

I thank the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument. This measure brings forward version 2 of the statutory code of practice, as required under the Forensic Science Regulator Act 2021, legislation introduced by the previous Conservative Administration. These provisions marked a significant step forward, placing the regulator on a statutory footing for the first time and mandating the creation and upkeep of a code to govern forensic science activities across England and Wales.

Version 1 of the code, which came into force in October 2023, was the first statutory code of its kind anywhere in the world. It represented an important milestone in improving the quality and consistency of forensic science. Version 2, which we are considering today, introduces a series of technical and procedural amendments aimed at improving clarity, efficiency and regulatory consistency. Many of these changes respond directly to issues raised during the early implementation of the original code, such as simplifying the accreditation process and refining standards around scene examination and other forensic practices.

We welcome the introduction of a transitional period, extending to October 2025, to support providers, particularly small businesses, in adjusting to the updated requirements. We note that changes were made following a broad consultation process, which received strong support from across the forensic science community. We support efforts to strengthen forensic standards, particularly where they serve to uphold the integrity of the criminal justice system. None the less, we believe that it is right to raise several points for consideration.

First, on the question of regulatory burden, have the Government undertaken a full and transparent assessment of whether these revised provisions meaningfully reduce unnecessary bureaucracy, especially for smaller providers? Will a formal post-implementation review be carried out to ensure that the intended efficiencies are being realised without compromising quality?

Secondly, we would welcome clarity on how the regulator intends to remain responsive to future developments. Forensic science is a rapidly evolving field and it is essential that the regulatory framework remains adaptable. Can the Minister confirm whether there is a rolling review process for ensuring that the code is kept up to date in a timely manner, rather than relying solely on periodic revisions?

Finally, on stakeholder engagement, while it is encouraging that the initial consultation involved a wide range of voices, can the Minister explain how the Government intend to maintain ongoing dialogue with front-line practitioners as the code is implemented in practice?

In conclusion, this revised code of practice represents a constructive step forward in refining and strengthening the regulatory regime for forensic science. While we support the direction of travel, we will continue to monitor implementation closely and encourage the Government to remain responsive to ongoing feedback from across the sector.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for their contributions. As a relative newcomer to the House, I had not realised that the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, had not chaired the Grand Committee before. I wish her well. I note also that all of us speaking in the Committee today have been Welsh by election—if not in my case by birth.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Just in case anybody misses me out, I am Welsh also, but I am not actually speaking in this debate.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My knowledge broadens daily. In all the years I have watched the noble Lord from a distance, I had never realised that—we learn something every day.

The points raised were valid points. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, I do not have a figure for the number of SMEs but there has been wide consultation. This is not a new requirement: version 1 has been in place and version 2 is a slight update with some slight tweaks. I hope noble Lords are aware of that. To minimise the impact of the requirements, including on small and micro businesses employing up to 50 people, the regulator is allowing a transitional period from the date that the version 2 code of practice comes into force until October 2025, for all providers to become compliant with version 2 of the code. There is a learning space for small businesses.

Investigatory Powers (Codes of Practice, Review of Notices and Technical Advisory Board) Regulations 2025

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Monday 12th May 2025 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Investigatory Powers (Codes of Practice, Review of Notices and Technical Advisory Board) Regulations 2025.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to be here today to bring forward these regulations. The Government have published an Explanatory Memorandum alongside them, and I shall begin with some brief background as to how we have got to where we are.

The Investigatory Powers Act 2016, known as the IPA, provides a framework for the use and oversight of investigatory powers by the intelligence services, law enforcement and other public authorities. I recall it well, having served on the Bill, in both draft and original form. It never fails to surprise to me that it is almost 10 years ago since the Act came into being. It helps to safeguard people’s privacy by setting out stringent controls over the way in which the powers are authorised and overseen. The IPA is considered to be world-leading legislation that provides unprecedented transparency and substantial protections for privacy.

The IPA was intentionally drafted in a technologically neutral manner, to ensure that public authorities could continue to acquire operationally relevant data as technology evolved. While this approach has largely withstood the test of time, a combination of new communication technologies and the changing threat landscape continues to challenge the effective operation of the Act.

The Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Act 2024 was introduced by the previous Government and received Royal Assent in April last year. To ensure that the legislative regime remains fit for purpose, the 2024 Act made a series of targeted changes to the IPA to enable our law enforcement and intelligence agencies to tackle a range of evolving threats in the face of new technologies and increasingly sophisticated terrorist and criminal groups.

That gives rise to the purpose of these regulations. The regulations before us bring into force three new and five revised codes of practice, which provide operational guidance for public authorities to have regard to when exercising their functions under the IPA. As well as including minor updates and changes to ensure consistency, the codes of practice have been revised to reflect various changes made by the 2024 Act under the previous Government.

The new codes on bulk personal datasets with a low or no reasonable expectation of privacy and third-party bulk personal datasets relate to new regimes introduced by the 2024 Act. The new code on the notices regime consolidates guidance from various existing codes into one place. The regulations also contain several provisions relating to the IPA’s notices regime, including defining “relevant change” for the purpose of the new notification notices. They also introduce timelines for the review of technical capability, data retention and national security notices, and amend existing regulations in relation to membership of the technical advisory board.

The regulations and code of practice have been informed by a 12-week public consultation which closed in January 2025. The Government received responses from a range of stakeholders, including interest groups, public authorities, technology companies, trade associations and members of the public. We made several changes following that consultation, including stylistic changes, further clarity on processes and changes to the technology advisory board’s membership requirement. A copy of the Government’s response to the consultation has been published and, should Members wish to see it, is available online or it will be at a future date.

To sum up, these regulations are a crucial step in implementing the 2024 Act. They will ensure that the UK’s investigatory powers framework continues to protect our national security and to prevent, investigate, disrupt and prosecute the most serious crimes. I commend the SI to the Committee.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I wonder whether the Minister would be kind enough in his reply to give us some idea of the ongoing arrangements for the updating of this kind of material. He has shown that the constant need for this is because of the speedy change of the world outside. Who is responsible for it? How are they able to keep up to date and how regularly do we think we are likely to have statutory instruments updating the material that we have? We are dealing with an ever-changing scene which is changing ever more quickly. I would like to understand the government structure that enables us to make satisfactory changes rapidly enough to see that we are fully in control.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. These regulations implement key provisions of the Investigatory Powers Act 2024, which was passed by the previous Conservative Government. These regulations introduce three codes of practice and revise five existing ones.

The new codes provide a framework for two regimes introduced by the 2024 Act— the treatment of bulk personal datasets where there is a low or no reasonable expectation of privacy, and the authorisation of access to third-party datasets. A third new code consolidates guidance on the notices regime, including the operation of notification notices and what constitutes a relevant change—a key test for when telecoms operators must inform the Secretary of State of technical updates.

The revised codes also enhance oversight and safeguards by clarifying the conditions for lawful access to data, strengthening protection for journalistic material and requiring notification of serious data breaches where it is in the public interest. These regulations also make important structural updates to the technical advisory board, expanding its membership and adjusting its quorum rules to ensure it can operate effectively when dealing with complex or concurrent reviews.

We welcome these provisions and, with that in mind, I raise several broader points. First, on legislative responsiveness, these regulations reflect the speed at which both threats and the technologies behind them are evolving. The 2024 Act rightly introduced flexible tools for handling internet connection records and bulk data. But agile legislation should not rely solely on periodic amendments. Can the Minister confirm whether the Government plan to conduct regular reviews of the framework and whether a structured timetable has been established to ensure that the legislation continues to meet operational needs?

Secondly, on stakeholder engagement, the Government’s consultation included contributions from technology companies, civil liberties organisations and public bodies. Although this engagement is welcome, several respondents raised concerns, particularly regarding the practical implications of notification notices and the definition of “relevant change”. Given that, can the Minister outline how the Government intend to maintain an open and ongoing dialogue with stakeholders as these codes are implemented?

Finally, on oversight and accountability, the powers under discussion are significant. Their legitimacy depends on effective safeguards; this is especially true for third-party bulk datasets, where individuals may not reasonably expect their data to be protected. Can the Minister confirm that the revised codes provide the Investigatory Powers Commissioner with the necessary clarity and authority to ensure that these powers are exercised lawfully and proportionately?

The 2024 Act was designed to safeguard national security in a rapidly evolving digital world. However, the use of investigatory powers must always be lawful, properly overseen and proportionate in its impact. Although these reforms offer practical steps to modernise the existing framework, we must ensure that these powers are used responsibly, reviewed regularly and held accountable, balancing security with our democratic values.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for those two contributions. First, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned again how the Government will keep these matters under review. He will know that, basically, the 2016 Act was passed on the basis of cross-party support. The 2024 Act was a review of whether the 2016 Act needed to be amended further, while the regulations before the Grand Committee today are the outcome of some of the changes to that 2024 Act.

The Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Act made a series of targeted changes to ensure that the regime was fit for purpose but, self-evidently, the Home Office will keep under examination the new technology and the need to make any further amendments. I cannot give the noble Lord an assurance as to when and how that will be done, but he can rest assured that if amendments to the 2016 Act, which was amended in 2024, are required, they will be brought to the House as a matter of some urgency.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, also mentioned public consultation; I very much welcome his welcome for of these regulations today. The responses that the Government received included various suggestions for amendments to the draft codes of practice and the regulations. We have made changes as a result; these are quite wide but include changes to the Technology Advisory Panel’s membership requirement. I know that he mentioned telecommunication companies in particular. Again, we are satisfied that there was sufficient input from them during the passage of the 2024 Act and that the points they raised were taken into consideration when preparing the codes. Obviously, again, we need to examine the wide space between telecommunications companies’ powers and responsibilities, including their responsibility to protect the individual and the consumer. I think that we have got the balance right here.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked about oversight. Strong safeguards are in place to ensure that investigatory powers are used in a necessary and proportionate way. There is independent oversight by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and the right of redress via the Investigatory Powers Tribunal for anybody who believes they have been the victim of unlawful action by a public authority using covert investigative techniques. The Investigatory Powers Commissioner independently oversees the use of investigatory powers and will ensure that they are used in accordance with the law and in the public interest. Several other powers—I hope this also reassures the noble Lord—are subject to the double lock, where warrants must be signed by the Secretary of State and an independent judicial commissioner. These powers are deployed only in connection with the most serious of crimes or national security.

Counter Terrorism Policing: Arrests

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 7th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, I too take this opportunity to thank the security services and police for what they do. The weekend’s arrests are an important reminder of how hard they work behind the scenes to keep us all safe. The scale of the threat posed by the Iranian regime is great, and there is clear evidence of Tehran’s willingness to disregard the rule of law to silence critics and fuel extremism.

UK-based Iranians have been the main targets, with mounting proof of Iran seeking to control its citizens abroad through intimidation, harassment and violence. That culminated in last year’s stabbing of a journalist working for the TV station Iran International, attacked outside his London home; and Iranian journalists, including those working for the BBC Persian service, facing daily threats of violence. Meanwhile, Iranian intelligence continues to target Jewish and Israeli individuals abroad, spreading fear and disinformation. I too would like to know if the Minister can confirm that extra security measures are in place to provide vulnerable communities and individuals with protection and reassurance amid these direct and unacceptable attacks on both media and religious freedoms.

In opposition, the Government were clear that they supported the proscribing of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a terrorist organisation. Canada took that step in June and the United States did so in 2019, but in Britain we have yet to make that call, preferring to keep communication channels open. Does the Minister agree that this weekend’s events indicate that the policy is not working, and that now is the time for the Government to act and to proscribe the IRGC as a terrorist organisation? Not only would that allow tighter control of the UK’s borders; it would enable the police proactively to charge those who materially or financially support the IRGC and enable assets linked to the organisation to be frozen.

The Liberal Democrats have previously welcomed sanctions against those with links to the Iranian regime, and we will support proposals to sanction the Iranian-backed Foxtrot criminal network when they come before the House next week. However, we hope the Government can go further to establish whether those with links to the Iranian regime have assets here in the UK. As such, we would like to see an audit carried out so we can find out where those assets are, including those put in the name of family members, so we can freeze them accordingly.

Thanks to the work of the police and security services, we appear to have been lucky this time, but we must now heed the warning and do more to ensure that the Iranian regime’s reach cannot continue to spread. Given the threat, does the Minister agree that now is not the time to cut the overseas budget, which had previously been used to support vital resilience programmes countering Iran’s malign influence?

It is already clear that the foundations of the previous world order are shifting fast, with America increasingly taking a step back, so can the Minister reassure the House that the Government are taking steps to fill the void by working with their international partners to combat Iran and address the wider situation in the Middle East?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I am grateful to both Front Benches for their questions, and I will try to answer them as best as I can.

To summarise for the House, colleagues will know that on Saturday 3 May counterterrorism police undertook a series of arrests relating to what I must make clear are two separate incidents and investigations, and a total of eight men were arrested by the Metropolitan Police Counter Terrorism Command under counter- terrorism and national security legislation. I can update the House to confirm that seven of those eight men currently remain in custody, and one is on bail with extremely serious and tight conditions. These are the first Iranian nationals arrested under the National Security Act. I join in the tribute that has been paid to the police and the security services, who have managed this event and brought the issues to conclusions on 3 May.

However, as colleagues have mentioned, this is an ongoing investigation so I am limited in what I can say and comment upon, but I want to say first and foremost that it is important that we hold Iran to account. Both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness asked what the Government can do to hold Iran to account. Noble Lords will recall that earlier this year, we announced in both Houses of Parliament the Foreign Influence Registration Scheme. It comes into effect on 1 July and ensures that a number of individuals connected with Iran, one of the first countries designated under the scheme, have to register a number of matters under that scheme by 1 July.

As the noble Baroness has mentioned, we have sanctioned a number of criminal entities that Tehran uses to do its bidding, such as the Foxtrot network—related documents will come before both Houses—alongside more than 450 Iranian individuals and entities that have been sanctioned to date by the UK Government.

Both Front Benches have mentioned proscription. It is common knowledge that we keep that under constant review. We have asked Jonathan Hall KC to provide a view on the counterterror framework, which does not fit neatly with existing states to date, and the Home Secretary has asked him to lead a review. I can confirm to the House today that that review has been finalised. We will be publishing it and its response shortly for colleagues in both Houses to examine, and we will make further announcements in due course on those issues.

It has been asked what steps we have taken on international engagement, whether we have consulted our allies and whether the Foreign Office had summoned the Iranian ambassador. In the Statement, we have said that the investigation is still in its early stages and the police are following various lines of inquiry as to the possible motivation of those currently arrested and in custody, or on police bail. I assure the House that as the investigation progresses, I will both engage internationally as appropriate and report back to the House on the issues that have been raised.

We are stronger when we are united, and our allies were supportive of the action over the weekend when this news broke. I know that the Foreign Office and the Foreign Secretary have reached out to key international partners to discuss those events with them.

We have judged sanctions to be a vital tool in deterring and disrupting Iran’s malign activity. They demonstrate that, along with our international partners, the UK continues to condemn Iran’s threats to international security and its human rights violations. We will be exploring further sanctions against Iranian-linked criminals, and the National Crime Agency will particularly target those who assist the IRGC and others in laundering their money.

The noble Baroness mentioned the overseas aid budget. There are some difficult decisions that the Government are taking. We have not yet finalised it; I have been in discussions with Ministers in the Foreign Office about that as it impacts upon areas of Home Office responsibility, but those issues are not yet finalised. Again, unfortunately, I cannot give any further detail to the noble Baroness at this point.

Both Front-Benchers mentioned that it is important that we ensure that individuals who are under threat are protected. Members of the House will know that the Home Office has worked with other government departments, as well as with relevant government agencies, to protect those identified as being at risk. The police and security services, as well as tracking down potential plots and threats, are working tirelessly to take other steps to ensure the safety of those concerned. Noble Lords will know that the Government have a general scheme for places of worship, particularly in relation to members of the Jewish community and synagogues. We have significant resource invested in protecting diplomatic missions, places of worship and individuals’ right to practise their religion at their chosen place of worship.

I cannot give details, and I am grateful that colleagues have not asked for further information, on the possible target, because it is an ongoing operation. I hope I can reassure the House by saying that the police have confirmed that they are in contact with the site that was the potential target. They have offered support, they have provided further security and other relevant advice, and, at the appropriate time, when it is safe to do so, the police will, and I will, through this House, confirm the alleged target of this plot. The Home Secretary has given a commitment to update both Houses—herself and the Security Minister in the other place and via me in this House—when it is operationally possible to do so. We will review state threats and the proscription tool as a matter of some urgency, and I hope I will be reporting on what Jonathan Hall has said and recommended to the Government, and our response to that, very shortly.

This is an ongoing investigation. When further information comes to light, the Government will bring it to both Houses. I felt it was important, following the incidents and arrests on 3 May, to make an early Statement, however general that is, to update the House on an important disruptive element identified by the security services, who I reserve absolute praise for in their tracking and taking action to prevent this alleged incident. The House will, in due course, be further notified of the contents of that incident.

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

My Lords, I appreciate my noble friend’s efforts and words in coming here today to make this full Statement, but—I think he sensed there was a but coming—on a subject I have raised often, in both this place and the other place, as night follows day, the malign hand of the IRGC will be in the middle of this. This looks like a serious escalation in Iran’s terror threat towards the West, and particularly towards Britain. I am not asking him to comment on that; I am just giving him and the House the benefit of my views. Surely now we are in a position where we should move to full the full banning of the IRGC.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is no surprise that my noble friend raises the issue that he has. I know he has raised it in both this House and in the House of Commons when he was a Member of that establishment. As I have said, I cannot routinely comment on proscription decisions. The House will be aware of our grave concern, long before these operations, about the arrest of Iranian nationals and the activities of different arms of the Iranian state in the UK, putting people’s safety at risk on UK soil. We are continuously undertaking serious security assessments, which are being instigated and updated as a result of incidents. We will continue to resolve and examine action that can be taken and will keep the House updated as soon as possible.

I know this may not be helpful to my noble friend at this moment, but the review that Jonathan Hall KC is undertaking for the Government has been completed and will be published in relatively short order. There will be a response from the Government to that, which will cover some of the issues that my noble friend has mentioned to date. Counterterrorism proscribing is an important tool, and we are not going to shy away from it, but we are waiting for that review to give factual information for us to make decisions, which we will report to the House at the earliest opportunity.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, I echo the thanks to our police and security services, whom we rely on so much. The Minister does not have to comment, but it appears that the Israeli embassy was a target of the terror plot linked to Iran. The eight Iranian nationals from the Islamic Republic were clearly members, or at least supporters, of the Islamic Republican Guard Corps. Proscribing the IRGC is about not only sanctions but sending the message to this terrorist regime that it will not be allowed access to the UK under any circumstances. Can the Minister tell us when the Government will stop issuing visas to people coming in from Iran? When do the Government intend to proscribe the IRGC, which has been mentioned, as the terrorist group that it is, along with the USA and other European countries?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the questions from the noble Baroness. I again confirm to the House that it is not at the moment in the interests of the Government, the security services or the police to give further information about the target of this potential plot. I cannot comment on the issues that the noble Baroness has mentioned about that case, but, rest assured, and I give a commitment firmly to the House that, when I am able to do so, I will do so. At this stage, I am not able to.

I hope I have covered the point about proscription in answer to other colleagues. I say again, for the benefit of doubt, that it is something that we keep under review. If and when any proscriptions of any nation or organisation happen, they will happen immediately and will not be trailed in the House, for reasons that we wish to maintain.

The foreign influence registration scheme—FIRS—that we brought in particularly relates to Iran and will operate from 1 July. On 4 March, we said that the whole of the Iranian state, including the intelligence services, the IRGC and other organisations, will be placed in the enhanced tier of the foreign influence registration scheme. I hope that sent a clear signal that we are concerned, as I know the noble Baroness is, about the activities of the Iranian state.

As I said to the noble Baroness on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, we have judged that sanctions are a vital tool in deterring and disrupting threats. We have put in place sanctions, and the National Crime Agency will continue to look at pursuing sanctions and assets where criminal activity is taking place.

The noble Baroness mentioned immigration measures and visas. We are undertaking work to consider new ways of enforcing our robust Immigration Rules, with a focus on taking action against those who promote Iranian interference in the UK that targets and undermines the safety and interests of our country. The Home Office has already applied robustly the Immigration Rules to protect UK national security, and we will not hesitate to block and to stop completely applications from people whom we judge, through our security and intelligence agencies, to be a threat to our security. We have already, in a range of immigration cases, protected the country from state threats. We will not hesitate to do that further, and we keep that under review.

The noble Baroness often presses me to go further. I understand why. I can give her the answers that I have given her, and I will update her and the House on matters at an appropriate time.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, these arrests are of course only one aspect of the array of measures that the UK authorities need to take to protect British citizens from the malign impact of Iran. Does the Minister share my concern that the Charity Commission is being too slow in investigating the growing number of Iran-linked charities that have been brought to its attention? Can he work across government to do whatever it takes to support the commission, cajole it or, if necessary, threaten it with reform unless it moves faster against this real and credible threat?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord and can reassure him that not just British citizens but any citizens in the UK who face threats from a regime such as Iran will have the protection of our security services. It is extremely important that we do that. The noble Lord has raised the issue of the Charity Commission before, and I share his concerns around Iranian-aligned centres in the UK and the malign influence that they have on our society and on individuals. The Charity Commission is undertaking inquiries into both the Islamic Centre of England and the Al-Tawheed Charitable Trust, and we in the Home Office are tracking closely the progress of those investigations. The Charity Commission has said that it takes this matter very seriously. I know that it is examining robustly evidence of wrongdoing and making referrals to other agencies where appropriate. Following the noble Lord’s intervention, I will again put down a marker with the Charity Commission and ask about further progress. But, essentially, I hope he accepts that the case is made, the commission is on the case, we share that concern and I hope we will get speedy resolutions.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

My Lords, I echo many of the calls that have been made to thank our police and security services for the hard work they have undertaken, and in particular the work they did over the weekend. As has been alluded to, last year the head of MI5 said that, since 2022, the UK had faced at least 20 plots backed by Iran, which represented potentially lethal threats to British citizens—UK residents as well as Iranians living here. The arrests over the weekend suggest that more plots can now be added to that score. I echo the calls from many noble Lords across the House, including my noble friend Lord Cryer, for proscription of the IRGC. Perhaps I might press the Minister once more on proscription. I listened very closely to what he said and we look forward to the report that has just been concluded by Jonathan Hall KC. When do the Government expect to respond to that review, and will my noble friend share with the House whether he expects that in the review there will be recommendations specifically on the proscription of the IRGC? If not, what process could lead from the review to the ultimate proscription of the IRGC?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend, whom I welcome to the House: this is the first time I have had the opportunity to answer a question from her since she joined.

It is important that we keep these matters under review. As I said in response to earlier questions, we are doing that. As a result of the incidents on 3 May, the security services and the police are making further assessments, and we are updating as a result of those incidents to ensure that we can make an up-to-date assessment. We will update the House as soon as we can on the outcome of those assessments. As I have said already, this is an ongoing investigation and until the end of the investigation we cannot take specific action accordingly.

I do say, and have said, that the proscription status of any organisation is now being examined by Jonathan Hall KC. That examination is taking place because, in the past, many of the threats were from organised groups or individuals; they were not state-backed terrorist threats. Therefore, we specifically asked Jonathan Hall KC to advise the Government on how we approach proscription for organisations that might be linked directly to a state. That review is due shortly, we intend to publish it shortly and we intend to try, if possible, to publish the Government’s response at the same time. I hope that the noble Baroness will be as patient as she can be, because we will be taking action on resolving how we deal with state threats. Having commissioned Jonathan Hall KC, we want to have the results of his deliberations and to respond to them, because they will help advise the Government on the best course of action.

[Lord Ranger (Con)]

My Lords, first, I congratulate our security forces and thank them for their superb job in stopping these terrorists in their tracks. We are a liberal democracy, we enjoy huge freedoms in this country and we also respect, accept and protect diversity. Unfortunately, there are certain regimes that are totally opposed to our way of thinking. They have no respect for diversity or for women, and we have to make it very clear that anyone who comes to disturb our way of life will not be tolerated and that there will be zero tolerance of any act of terrorism of any kind against any British citizen.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely correct. The first duty of any Government is to protect their citizens, and citizens from other countries who are residing here, in legal and appropriate ways. That is a key element of the work that goes on, day in and day out, by the security services, led by Sir Ken McCallum, from police services across the country, from the counterterrorism unit and from our officials in the Home Office. That is why we wanted to reassure the House by making this Statement in the House of Commons and now in this House, to show that action was taken last week. Because there will be speculation about what has happened, and why, we wanted to indicate that we had taken determined action.

However, as it is an ongoing investigation, until it is resolved we cannot give full details of targets, incidents and those involved, and also when the Crown Prosecution Service will take action accordingly. Noble Lords can rest assured, however, that security is our first duty and that is why the steps we have taken on the Iranian regime in relation to foreign influence and sanctions are important. We will keep everything under review, as I said, and I am grateful for the noble Lord’s support for the actions of the Government to date.

Licensing Act 2003 (Victory in Europe Day Licensing Hours) Order 2025

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 7th May 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hanson of Flint]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 23 April be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 6 May.

Motion agreed.

Police: Stop and Search

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 6th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my interests as set out in the register.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

Stop and search is a fundamental tool for tackling crime, including knife crime in particular, but it must be used fairly and effectively. The Government support the National Police Chiefs’ Council’s Police Race Action Plan, which commits chief constables to identifying and addressing disparities in the use of stop and search.

[Lord Paddick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as the Minister said, stop and search is a valuable tool in taking weapons off our streets, but Home Office figures show that 86% of police stop and search is on suspicion of possession-only drug offences, and you are four times more likely to be stopped and searched if you are black than if you are white, even though Home Office research concludes:

“It is not clear from the evidence whether ethnicity is a predictor of violent offending”.


What can the Government do to get the police to carry out more stop and search on violent criminals?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord will know that it is for the police themselves to determine whether they undertake stop and search. That was a particular judgment for police officers rather than for Ministers. He will know, in the Metropolitan Police area in particular, 26% of all stop and searches were taken by the Metropolitan Police overall, resulting in over 21,999 arrests—from 16% of those stop and searches.

We have signed up and supported the Metropolitan Police and others included in the Police Race Action Plan, and the Metropolitan Police has signed up to that plan. It looks at how stop and search is being used by police on black and ethnic minority individuals, and at involving black and ethnic minority representatives in monitoring the use of stop and search. The noble Lord is right that stop and search should be used for serious crimes. That also requires strong training and support to police officers, to ensure their safety also.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

My Lords, how wise is it to put off the introduction of biometric ID cards?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Well, my Lords, I was in the Home Office when we had ID cards, which were abolished by the then Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition. The noble Lord has made his point. I wish that they had not been abolished, but we are in a position now where, 15 years ago to the day, the party that he supports, with Liberal Democrat support, came to power and, as a result, abolished the ID cards that he now seeks to reintroduce.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, every 14 hours a child is strip-searched in England and Wales by the police. Black children are four times more likely than white children to be targeted and most of the searches—at least 50%—result in no further action. It is a legal requirement for an appropriate adult to be in hand and on side when the child is searched, but there is clear evidence of widespread non-compliance with this. Despite the fact that the previous Government did a consultation last June and that the current Home Secretary has said that tighter safeguards are an urgent priority, no action has been taken. Can the Minister tell us when the Government are going to resolve this appalling situation?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. The Government hope to introduce new safeguards on her very point about the strip-searching of children via amendments to statutory codes of practice and will be bringing those forward in due course.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister, and the Home Secretary in particular, on the pre-emptive action taken over the weekend to arrest a number of threatened terrorists, including seven Iranians who had, I understand, specific targets in mind. Is the Minister able to give the House any more information regarding this?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Unfortunately not. I am very grateful to my noble friend for his question. He may be aware that very shortly—which I do not wish to pre-empt—a Statement will be made in the House of Commons by the Security Minister, which I suspect I will be repeating in due course in this House. I hope that he will be patient for both the Statement and for any repeat requested by His Majesty’s loyal Opposition.

[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

My Lords, as the Minister will know, stop and search removed over 3,500 dangerous weapons from the streets of London and still retains a high level of support among Londoners. What assessment will the Government be making of the Metropolitan Police’s use of the new stop and search charter? Do the Government believe this will lead to better stop and search or will it reduce the number of weapons removed from the streets?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is important that we note and support the Metropolitan Police signing up to the charter which monitors how stop and search is used and sets down some basic tenets that underpin the use of it with checks and balances and by monitoring disparity on the basis of race. But it is equally important that the Metropolitan Police has the power to undertake stop and search, because it has resulted in 21,999 arrests, 12,391 community resolutions, 4,150 penalty notices for disorder and 119 seizures of property in the Metropolitan Police area. The Metropolitan Police is obviously making an impact on elements of criminality, but a large proportion of people are still stopped where no action is taken and no offence has taken place. That is why the measures the Metropolitan Police has put in place are so important.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, there are two things that the Government might consider to help police improve the efficacy of stop and search. This relates also to the next Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, about the use of knives on our streets. First, it is no surprise or secret who carries weapons. The mothers of these kids know it, as do their brothers and the people that they go round with. But will they tell the police and will the police do something about it immediately? Could something such as Crimestoppers—which I tried to get going before I left, but could not—act as a good portal to make sure that the information is passed to the police about who is carrying knives and when and get the police out within minutes to go and find them on the Tube, in taxis or wherever they happen to be travelling? Secondly, there is the use of technology. At the moment, we are relying on officers’ intuition to decide where and who they search, when surely technology by now should be helping them in that vital task.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that intelligence-led policing is critical to making the best use of stop and search. That includes methods where individuals who have information can pass it in confidence to the police. The suggestions the noble Lord has made are important ones. It will also be helpful that we will have over this Parliament an extra 13,000 neighbourhood police officers, with neighbourhood police officers allocated to each community area. It will build confidence and trust to report those matters.

The noble Lord mentioned technology. It is no secret that the Government have been looking at the question of facial recognition and other technologies along those lines, which can spot and analyse the use and carrying of knives. That is something we are working on, although I cannot give him definitive answers today.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, as has been said many times, stop and search is a vital part of the police toolbox to tackle crime. The 2023 review by the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, highlighted several areas of concern in how these powers were used. In my years of policing, I always maintained that it is vital that all officers are properly trained in how to use these powers and that they know their limitations within the law. Could the Minister update the House on how the Government are working with the College of Policing to deliver the updated national policing curriculum to ensure that guidance for stop and search is properly understood and implemented on the ground?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right; it is important there is training in the use of stop and search by police officers and that it is updated. It is important that the outcomes of stop and searches are monitored for both the impacts, which the noble Lord mentioned earlier, and to see whether racial disparities are taking place. Those should be fed back to both the College of Policing and the National Police Chiefs’ Council. This is why the National Police Chiefs’ Council is issuing and regularly updating information on the race action plan, both monitoring it and examining its impact.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister was talking about increased numbers of police. Are the Government supportive of neighbourhood policing?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

We are so supportive of neighbourhood policing that we have put an extra £1 billion into that fund this year. We are employing around an extra 3,000 neighbourhood police this year and will employ 13,000 more over the course of this Parliament.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister gave us a series of statistics about the successes of stop and search in terms of items seized, charges made and so on. But, of course, the other element of stop and search is its deterrent effect. Could he tell us what work has been done to quantify whether stop and search has a deterrent effect and what its extent is?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I cannot give my noble friend a qualitative answer to that at the moment. However, I will say that visible policing and the visible nature of being able to stop and search an individual who is suspected have resulted in a significant number of hauls of drugs, knives and other material. That should on its own have a deterrent effect. I cannot give my noble friend an analysis that we have measured, but I welcome his contribution and I will certainly look at that.

Knife Crime

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 6th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brown of Silvertown]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to tackle knife crime.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

The Government are taking a number of steps to halve knife crime within a decade as part of the safer streets mission. We have created the Young Futures programme, the coalition to halve knife crime, the knife-enabled robbery task force, and we are bringing in new and stronger legislation to crack down on the sale of and access to dangerous knives.

[Baroness Brown of Silvertown (Lab)]

Much of the knife crime in my former constituency in east London was fuelled by county lines drug gangs. I worked with some amazing mums, who were desperately trying to rescue their children who were ensnared in the pernicious clutches of these gangs. Parents facing these circumstances need real support to help them navigate not only the violence and menace of the groomers but the criminal justice system, in which they can be both victim and perpetrator. Do the Government agree? If so, what action can we expect?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I pay tribute to my noble friend for the work she did on this very issue as a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons. She has pressed very hard for an offence to try to break up criminal gangs luring young people into violence and crime. I am pleased to tell her that, as she will know, there is a new child criminal exploitation offence in the Crime and Policing Bill, which is currently before the House of Commons and will come to this place shortly, to ensure we can take action against exploiters and deter gangs, and have some prevention orders in place. I hope that she will also welcome the Young Futures prevention partnerships, which we have put in place to help guide families and young people through moving out of gangs and criminal behaviour. Additionally—and I know this will be of specific interest to her—the Metropolitan Police has been allocated £8.1 million via the hotspot action fund to include Metropolitan Police officers on the ground in neighbourhood police officer mode.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that there are reports of a dramatic increase in young people carrying knives on a regular basis. This generation of young people has had a really hard time. First, there has been a major increase in the break-up of parental relationships in their young years. Secondly, their schools were closed during the pandemic, and then they have had to cope with the effect of a lot of social media. Would the Minister agree that we really ought to think about returning to some of the preventive and support services that we lost some time in the last decade?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. I mentioned the Young Futures programme to my noble friend. That is designed to ensure that we intervene early with children and young people who face poorer outcomes because of factors in their lives that have led them to carry knives. These could be gang related, the result of poor parenting or just from contact at school. It is very important that we get that support for them. It is also important that we tackle the sales of knives, the ability to buy a knife online and the criminality of carrying knives, which we have now done in the Crime and Policing Bill. Those measures will be before this House shortly, and I look forward to cross-House support to pass them.

[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

My Lords, last month I had the great pleasure of meeting with Mark Prince, who started the Kiyan Prince Foundation after the murder of his 15 year-old son in 2006. Can the Minister say what money is available for these small, community organisations, which are doing this vital, pre-emptive work to keep children away from knife crime and gang crime?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The main focus of the Government’s new investment on preventing knife crime is the Young Futures hubs. We are starting to experiment with a couple of pilot schemes, which will draw in voluntary organisations and others around them to look at how we can best intervene on young people and their families accordingly. Those pilots will be undertaken very shortly, and I hope that we will roll out a number of Young Futures hubs nationwide once the pilots have been operational. Those hubs would then be the best opportunity for other organisations to work with them to secure resources and contribute to reducing knife crime.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, youth offending teams, which are funded through the Turnaround early intervention programme, do excellent work with children at risk of entering the youth justice system, including those vulnerable to knife crime. However, consistency is vital in youth work, where success relies entirely on building trust. The problem is that funding for these teams is guaranteed only until March 2026. Could the Minister say whether there are plans to introduce some long-term funding to ensure that these teams can continue to do the excellent work they are currently doing?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will draw the noble Baroness’s comments to the attention of the Minister for Justice, the noble Lord, Lord Timpson. Youth offending teams are the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice. But, as I mentioned, the Home Office is trying to invest in the Young Futures programme. Those initial hubs will not replace other types of activity, such as youth offending teams; they are there to generate a collective response from organisations to look at what is needed most to reduce knife crime. So there is new funding going in from the Home Office, and I will raise her point with the noble Lord, Lord Timpson, on her behalf.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, a few weeks ago, the Minister said he was looking at the possibility that the police might be equipped with handheld metal detectors as a way of stopping people in the street and seeing whether they had metal weapons on them. Has he made any progress in that direction?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Yes, I have. We are working with industry partners to develop the very systems that my noble friend has raised previously and again today. The work is part of an innovation competition that was launched last year. Phase 1 is expected to be delivered by the end of May, resulting in the first prototype systems, so I hope my noble friend will recognise that there is action this day.

[The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham]

My Lords, given the importance of young men needing positive role models in their lives, and of these being people they actually know and can talk to consistently, have His Majesty’s Government considered—as part of their Young Futures programme—how the PSHE curriculum in schools can be tailored more to facilitating these opportunities, taking note particularly of the excellent work of charities such as Kick, which are providing more and more mentors to primary and secondary schools?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Education and contact in schools is probably one of the key issues that need to be challenged to give young people the skills and confidence to play a role with their friends in a way that is not in a gang—where they are not drawn into criminal activity and have the confidence to resist those temptations when they are put in front of them. The right reverend Prelate’s point is vital, and it lies with the Department for Education in England and with the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It is key to driving up individuals’ confidence to tackle knife crime at source.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

Last year, there were around 50,500 recorded offences involving a sharp instrument. Knife crime, of course, terrifies communities and can have lethal consequences, and it is very worrying that the numbers are heading in the wrong direction. The Government reported in February that 17% of knife crime offences related to children, and over 99% of these were for possession alone. One of the great issues around this is the glorification of carrying knives among some young people, so what might the Minister have to say about tackling this glorification?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises a valid point, and I look forward to him joining the Government in supporting the measures in the Crime and Policing Bill, which will come before this House, that tackle the promotion of knife crime on social media, the sale of knives on social media, and his point about the glorification and promotion of knife culture. We are trying to undertake a range of measures, some of which go back to direct interventions—such as the Youth Futures programme—some of which go back to issues to do with better policing and neighbourhood policing, and some of which are around stop and search. But a big proportion is about the ban on zombie knives, the ban on sales of knives and the ban on social media promoting knife culture. Those things will come before this House very shortly, and I look forward to his support.