Solar Industry

Claire Perry Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2019 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I know that you take a strong interest in these matters on behalf of your constituents in Kettering. I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) on securing the debate and putting forward, as always, an excellent, well-informed set of points, which have been responded to and added to by the knowledgeable group we have here today.

I will not do the usual context setting, which is that we are doing well on the whole agenda. Renewable energy is now up to more than 32%, and emissions continue to fall rapidly. In fact, the last time our CO₂ emissions were this low was in 1888, when Queen Victoria was on the throne. That is absolutely worth celebrating.

[Catherine West]

Will the Minister give way?

[Claire Perry]

I want to respond to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury, but of course I will accept the intervention.

[Catherine West]

I thank the Minister for being so generous with her time. Will she also congratulate the Greater London Authority and the Mayor of London on the London community energy fund, which helps to promote this sort of initiative?

[Claire Perry]

I will touch on that good point about community. Many good schemes operate across various local authorities.

The feed-in tariff scheme has been an effective part of our great decarbonisation journey. Since 2010, the scheme has supported more than 830,000 installations, 99% of which are solar and are currently generating about 3% of total electricity consumption. Also, a few things have changed since that time, as the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) will know. We have seen a dramatic fall in the cost of solar installation—up to 80% in some cases—which is to be welcomed, as it makes that more accessible to many people. We have also seen a dramatic fall in the cost of other renewable energies.

I like the phrase the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) used: the democratisation of energy. We are all participating, and one of the great benefits is that the hugely important technology that is offshore wind now costs the same, effectively, as building a new gas-fired power plant. That is a benefit to us all and to all our bills.

The feed-in tariff scheme has cost us almost £6 billion to date, and over its lifetime it will continue to cost us all about £30 billion, on many of our bills. It was absolutely right, therefore, that the decision was taken—before my time—to close the scheme. As we move to a lower-cost solar environment, and to a world in which we are rapidly seeing price parity between renewables and non-renewables technology, it is important to think about the impact on bills.

[Matt Western]

With all the new build housing that is going up, does the Minister think the Government could be a lot more ambitious? There are hundreds of thousands of houses, which is terrific, but we are so unambitious in enabling people to have that democratisation of energy from within their own properties.

[Claire Perry]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we have some of the tightest energy efficiency standards for new homes, but I totally agree that we need to go further, and my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government are looking at that right now. Under this Government, we will build millions of homes; that is absolutely part of our ambition, and it is right that we make them as energy efficient as possible and that they contribute as much as possible to this revolution.

I want to focus on a couple of the challenges that my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury emphasised, one of which is the concern about jobs. We have seen a healthy supply chain build up and it is exciting that we are already seeing subsidy-free solar projects at scale being brought forward. One consultant’s estimates tell us that 2.3 GW of solar projects already in the system in the UK with, or awaiting, planning permission could be delivered without subsidy. Lightsource, which has just been bought by BP, says that it is developing 300 MW of subsidy-free projects backed by power purchase agreements, some of which will be delivered during 2019. So we are starting to see solar being delivered at scale without subsidy—indeed, I opened the country’s first subsidy-free solar farm in my first few weeks in the job. That is incredibly exciting, and I am very ambitious for the jobs that will be created over the next few years.

[Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

The Minister is making a very fair point: as the technology has moved forward, the cost of solar has dropped. That is certainly true for the businesses that are taking this agenda forward at scale, but for many individual householders, the cost of investing in panels is still prohibitive. Will she address the question of how the Government could support householders to invest in that technology?

[Claire Perry]

I am coming to that point. We have not said that the feed-in tariff is no more, and that there is essentially no value out there; there is huge value in having decentralised energy generation. My hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury and others made some powerful points about the role of community energy, which I am passionate about. As she mentioned, it is often a way in which people drink the green Kool-Aid and realise that they can be part of this transformation; zero-carbon faith groups, for instance, are amazing movements. That is why we have continued to support communities.

I was pleased to extract from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs a commitment to the rural community energy fund, which will be reopening for bids later this year; it is an important part of delivering community schemes in many of our constituencies. We have invested £8 million in local energy hubs, which are helping some of the local authority-led schemes that the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green mentioned, both in London and across the country. We have a local energy contact group, and we are working closely with communities through investments in energy efficiency, local energy schemes, and combined heat and power plants through the £350 million heat network scheme. There is a lot of support for communities that want to move forward.

The smart export guarantee is not just to provide a route to market for those who have installed, or will be installing, decentralised installations; it is intended to do a couple of things. My hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury is quite right to say that this energy should not be provided for free, or indeed at negative prices, as is sometimes the case in other countries. She will be pleased to know that the consultation has not yet closed, although it closes at a quarter to midnight tonight, so hon. Members can make their representations.

The plan is essentially for this scheme—which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) pointed out, is a market-based approach—to help move us towards the smart energy system of the future that we all talk about, in which we have decentralised energy and people are able to do the energy balancing for their home or their community, plugging in their electric vehicles and doing peer-to-peer energy trading. The scheme is designed to support all those exciting things that are out there. I had a very effective meeting with suppliers of products and services who really support this, and who want to get to that decentralised energy future. They accept the points about tariffs needing to be fair and reasonable, and needing to provide an incentive, but they support creating those prosumers, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury has said. They support creating that aggregated demand side, meaning that all of us who install solar panels will have some power and some value in the system.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

Is the Minister minded to ensure a fair minimum market rate for small-scale generators of exported electricity, to give them some incentive and some degree of confidence?

[Claire Perry]

That is an important question that will come out in the consultation. Frankly, I would ensure that the market rate was always greater than zero, but that it varied at different times of day, because many of us may have excess energy that we wanted to sell into the grid at a particular time. I want to see what proposals come forward for setting that market rate. There are ideas out there, including that the rate should be wholesale price minus, or that it should be entirely market led.

I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury about speed being of the essence when coming forward with a response, but I really want to get this right. I do not want this to be a scheme that we are debating in three years’ time because it has suddenly become unaffordable and has not delivered. My hon. Friend will be aware that installers are already scrutinising with care what we are saying and doing. We do not want to create a hiatus, but we want to produce a set of incentives that works for the future.

[Catherine West]

rose—

[Claire Perry]

I will come to the hon. Lady’s point in a second.

I talked about jobs and the opportunity for skilled workers to pursue careers in this sector. Not only is there ongoing growth in solar, but so many other opportunities are emerging: electric vehicles, charging infrastructure, smart appliances and battery technology are all working to decarbonise our buildings and our transport systems. The opportunity for green-collar jobs is enormous; we already have almost 400,000 people in the UK working directly in the low-carbon economy or in its supply chain, making it a bigger sector than aerospace. Those jobs exist in the here and now.

[Catherine West]

rose—

[Claire Perry]

I am going to take an intervention from the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake), who has not spoken yet.

[Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)]

Does the Minister also recognise the potential for the energy company obligation scheme to support innovation, particularly in renewable energy? Often, the challenges to securing a return on investment that developers face can be overcome through the certainty that some sort of support mechanism can offer.

[Claire Perry]

Indeed I do, and I am proud to have secured one of the largest increases in innovation research and development spending in the clean energy space. Of course, the ECO scheme, which we have recently pivoted to focus on fuel poverty in its entirety, includes an increase in the amount spent on innovation.

[Catherine West]

Will the Minister reassure us that when her officers are looking at the responses to the consultation, they will take into account the fact that for small schemes, such as the one that is putting solar panels on schools in my constituency, the overheads tend to be greater?

[Claire Perry]

That is a valuable point, and the hon. Lady is right to make it.

The consultation is closing in a few hours’ time. I know that it has been welcomed, including by the industry, which sees it as a bridge to a renewable, subsidy-free future. The comments that have been made today will be valuable in ensuring the details of the scheme are acceptable.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

The Minister may be under the misapprehension that she has to allow the mover of the motion time to sum up, but that does not apply in half-hour debates, so she has another four minutes if she wants to use them.

[Claire Perry]

Well, Mr Hollobone, you learn something every day in Parliament. It would perhaps be only courteous to allow my hon. Friend to sum up; is that permissible?

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

It is impermissible.

[Claire Perry]

I will just keep going, then! If anyone else would like to intervene, the Floor is theirs.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

One of my concerns is the gap that has been spoken about. I understand the Minister’s desire to get things right, but will she consider extending the FIT scheme to cover that gap, bearing in mind that, given her efficient work in her Department, it is likely to be a short delay?

[Claire Perry]

Sadly, in all honesty, probably not. We have been clearly signalling the closing of the FIT scheme for several years now, and the response from the industry has been, “We understand that. We understand that some schemes may be on hold, but we welcome the smart export guarantee, because our main ask was to ensure that the energy that was being generated had some value.”

My hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury asked me another question about an issue that I was not fully aware of—namely, the concerns about testing the smart metering equipment technical specification 2 programme to ensure it interacts effectively with solar generation. I have instructed my officials to ensure that that testing is actioned, because that is an important point.

[Catherine West]

Will the Minister give a brief account of what is happening with Government buildings? They are clearly low-hanging fruit, as it were; there should be more and more solar installations on Government buildings.

[Claire Perry]

I am sure that the hon. Lady will have read the clean growth strategy from cover to cover, and will have seen in there that we have set out ambitious targets for the central Government estate and the wider estate. As we have so many former representatives of local authorities here, I encourage all Members to look at the Salix scheme, which allows local authorities to green up their own activities and rely on an interest-free revolving loan. It has been a great success story, and one that we must do a lot more on.

I will mention another issue—briefly, as I only have two minutes. A question was asked about encouraging housing associations and others to be involved, and I have been encouraging housing associations and local authorities to think about issuing green financial instruments. There is a huge appetite for green bonds, either individually or collectively, and using that funding for some of the excellent energy efficiency work that is available.

[Matt Rodda]

On a related matter, will the Minister also consider the issue of the private rented sector, which in some parts of our towns and cities makes up a substantial amount of the homes in those local authority areas? In my experience as a former councillor, there is a serious issue with both fuel poverty—people living in poverty in private rented homes—and poor insulation linked to a lack of take-up of solar.

[Claire Perry]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I am pleased to tell him that one of the pieces of legislation we have introduced ensures that the least efficient homes in the private rented sector will no longer be allowed to be re-rented until those improvements have been made.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury for an excellent and timely debate. I will just say something that is a tiny bit political: would it not be lovely if we could get through Brexit and vote for the deal so that we could bring all this collective knowledge together to solve these problems, which are about not the next three years but the next 30? If we do that, will my hon. Friend promise us that she will mix us an Archimedes’ screw cocktail, so that we can celebrate and focus on saving the planet, rather than saving our sanity in the Brexit negotiations?

Question put and agreed to.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Will those Members not staying for the next debate please be kind enough to leave quickly and, importantly, quietly?

Net Zero Carbon Emissions: UK’s Progress

Claire Perry Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

I wish to say a genuine thank you to all Members for coming here on a one-line Whip Thursday, after a long and hard few weeks of Brexit debates. Again, I wish to pay tribute to the hon. Members for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) and for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for securing what has been a really high-quality debate. We have heard some excellent speeches and suggestions, and I will try to pay tribute as I go through some of the main points raised. Of course, there were so many good questions that I am not sure I will be able to respond to all of them, but if any colleague wants to stop me to ask me about specific points, or to put them in writing, I will be happy to address them.

What a joy it was to debate, as my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) said, something that will affect us all for the next 30 years, rather than the next three years—something that is so fundamental to the way we live our lives that it deserves much more time in this place and much more discussion outside it. I would be delighted to spend many more hours in this place, on the Front Benches or wherever, debating these issues.

[Robert Courts (Witney) (Con)]

I entirely agree with everything the Minister just said about the importance of this issue. Perhaps she would agree that, given that an opinion poll has found that 72% of the public are either very concerned or fairly concerned about climate change, if we spent more time talking about it here, that would be welcomed by them as well as by us.

[Claire Perry]

I entirely agree. Many groups out there will be waiting to see what we say today, including those young people who took to the streets with great energy and verve. It was an absolutely amazing thing to see. I note that in applying for this debate the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon said she was

“very supportive of them but as a teacher”

a little concerned

“because it would really have annoyed me in my physics classes”.

I am afraid she probably would have been cross with me had she been my teacher, because I fear I would have been out there with them at their age—although, of course, I was studying geography and meteorology, not physics.

I wish to address a few points: first, where we are; secondly, why we need to do more; and thirdly, why this is so incredibly important. By the way, I welcome the really collegiate cross-party tone of the debate. There were some political digs, but I am not going to get into political point scoring, because unless we pull together on this, we will not make progress. This has to be a cross-Government, cross-party, global initiative, and we need a lot more consensus than we have had.

Following the previous debate, let me say happy St David’s Day for tomorrow to the very many Welsh Members. As Members representing all four nations in this great group, we can take pride in the UK’s record on tackling climate change. We were among the first to recognise the problem. Indeed, Mrs Thatcher spoke about the impact of human activity on the climate at the UN in 1989; Sir Nicholas Stern’s incredible work in 2006 laid a pathway for how we had to think about the problem; and we used cross-party strength in this place to pass the world’s first Climate Change Act 10 years ago.

I am one of probably a tiny number of Ministers who has statutorily binding carbon budgets, given to us by the CCC and upon which we have to agree, and who has then to defend those budgets and the record on them to the House of Commons. It is worth noting, as others have, that we are on target to drop our carbon emissions by 57% by 2032. Of course, we need to get to 80% by 2050. Some will say that we have not yet set out exactly how we are going to reach those targets. We published the clean growth strategy—the most comprehensive document I have ever seen from a Government—setting out policies and proposals to decarbonise right across our economy. I am happy to say that we have delivered almost all the action points and commitments that we have made so far. We know that we have to do more and we will do more. We have to go further than those budgets, which is the point of the debate.

[Sir Oliver Letwin]

My right hon. Friend and I have often discussed this question, but I hope she will acknowledge that the provision of the basic charging infrastructure on the trunk road network now proposed by Next Green Car would be a huge step forward. If we can cure range anxiety for electric vehicles, we might see a tipping point, which would have a big effect, even on the things mentioned by the former Energy Secretary, the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey).

[Claire Perry]

My right hon. Friend makes the point well about some of the things that the Government can actually do. So much of this is about a combination of the public and the private sector working together, but there are absolutely parts of the equation on which the Government can and must lead, such as through legislation and incentives. I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend.

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

rose—

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

rose—

[Claire Perry]

I will of course try to take as many interventions as I can, but I just want to respond to some of the points made in the debate.

After the very startling and worrying IPCC report, we were the first developed country to ask for advice on how we would achieve that target. We have asked how, by when and how much it is going to cost. We have to be pragmatic about this: we have to recognise the need for urgency, but we cannot bring forward policies and proposals that do not command the support of the people we represent. We can see just across the channel what happens when we do that.

[Sir Edward Davey]

While the Minister is talking about the targets and the request for the CCC to comment on net zero, will she say whether it will be possible for the CCC to recommend a new net zero target for 2050, following her letter?

[Claire Perry]

The current advice is that it is not technically possible, so I have asked the CCC to set out clearly when it thinks we should be able to achieve it. I look forward to sharing that information with the House and think a debate would be appropriate.

This is about not just actions, policies and words, but delivery. As others have noted, PricewaterhouseCoopers has said that the UK is at the top of the G20 leader board in this space. Since 1990, we have cut emissions by more than any other developed country—as a proportion of our economic growth. That is important because the best way to cut emissions is to have recessions, which is not a good thing for the prosperity and the future of our constituents. It is extremely important therefore that we recognise and celebrate that progress, but that we commit ourselves to do more.

[Caroline Lucas]

My question really is what would our position look like on that league table if we were to take into account consumption emissions. My general point is that, although the Minister says that we cannot go faster than the country as a whole wants us to do, there is also a role for Government to show real leadership. The way to do that is to make sure that social justice is at the heart of the approach to climate. That way, we will not have the problem of the gilets jaunes.

[Claire Perry]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. Of course the role of Government is to set ambition and to lead. I wish to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), who was in his place earlier. He, along with many other Members in this place from all parties, has contributed so much time and ingenuity over the past few years to come up with these policies. I accept the hon. Lady’s point about the calculation, but that is the basis on which that chart is calculated. The consumption emissions of all countries are not necessarily allocated. The point is that, on that basis, we have led the world, and that is something on which we should absolutely focus.

I will talk about some of the other things that we have delivered—things, I hope, that the hon. Lady will feel pleased about for once. Last year was a record year for the generation of power from renewables. We were at 32%. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady is heckling like one of the gilets jaunes. I wish that she would listen and behave like the elder stateswoman that she could be. We have had the world’s first floating offshore wind platform in operation. We have set out an auction structure for offshore wind. [Interruption.] Offshore wind is rather important in decarbonising our energy. We also had the first set of coal-free days in our energy generation since the industrial revolution, which has allowed us to take global leadership in the Powering Past Coal Alliance to encourage 80 other countries, states, cities and companies to operate in a coal-free way.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

rose—

[Claire Perry]

I will give way briefly to the hon. Lady.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I thank the Minister very much for giving way. I know that she is very short of time. Although I welcome all of those achievements, does she not agree that, if we really are to meet the highest possible necessary carbon neutral targets, we need to invest more and more in renewables and less and less in fossil fuels?

[Claire Perry]

I entirely agree with the hon. Lady. That is why I am about to bring forward the offshore wind sector deal that sets out how we will continue to drive that capacity. It is why we are spending almost £6 billion over the course of this Parliament—

[Anna McMorrin]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Claire Perry]

I would just love to make some progress, because I have only three minutes left. I wish to leave some time for the hon. Lady who called this debate.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

No, the Minister has one minute left.

[Claire Perry]

In that case, having given way very generously, I will say this: I entirely accept the challenge of working further and faster. We must keep leading from the front so that we can avoid the climate catastrophe that others have been so eloquent about. We must find the new opportunities that this transition presents. We must repair our ecosystems so that we can look the next generation in the eye and say that we did what we had to do to protect our planet for their future. We protected planet A because there is no planet B.

[Layla Moran]

I simply wish to say thank you so much to all those who have contributed to this incredibly important debate. I am pleased to hear from the Minister that, next time, Government time might be available to debate these things. I had a number of emails from other Members in this House who were desperate to be here, but who could not make it for other reasons. The fact that this is a Thursday afternoon and we have managed to more than fill the time suggests that this is a subject that everyone across this House finds incredibly important.

I will end by saying to those young people who got together and made us act: may this not be the last time that we do this, but the first of very many times that we come together to try to solve this problem for them.

[Claire Perry]

Oh!

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The Minister is right to note that there are a few seconds left, which has surprised me given that this has been such a well-subscribed and well-ordered debate this afternoon. There, I have taken up the few seconds that were remaining. Thus, we are at the point where I can put the question.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the UK’s progress toward net zero carbon emissions.

Draft Electricity and Gas etc. (Amendment Etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft Electricity network codes and guidelines (Markets and trading) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft Electricity and gas (Market Integrity and Transparency) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft Gas (Security of Supply and Network Codes) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Draft Electricity Network Codes and Guidelines (System Operation and Connection) (Amendment Etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Claire Perry Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2019 General Committees

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Electricity and Gas etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Electricity Network Codes and Guidelines (Markets and Trading) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, the draft Electricity and Gas (Market Integrity and Transparency) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, the draft Gas (Security of Supply and Network Codes) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 and the draft Electricity Network Codes and Guidelines (System Operation and Connection) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

[Claire Perry]

It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship on this sunny day, Sir Graham.

The instruments are all made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and were laid before the House on 30 January. I apologise to the Committee for the fact that they have been bundled together, but I commend my parliamentary team, the drafters and the scrutiny Committees for doing a very efficient job of preparing these necessary instruments to assist in our preparation for a no-deal Brexit, in what I hope the Committee agrees was a timely and efficient manner.

I assure the Committee that my Department is working to ensure that our energy legislation continues to function effectively after exit day, regardless of whether there is a deal or what form it takes, so that consumers continue to benefit from reliable, affordable and clean electricity and gas. A significant part of the legislation that underpins our energy market takes the form of direct EU legislation. The instruments will transpose that legislation directly into domestic law after our departure as retained law under the terms of the 2018 Act, as we have done with so many pieces of EU legislation.

As in many other instruments considered by Committees like this one, we have had to make certain minor amendments to the legislation to ensure that it continues to function when transposed into UK law. Following the continuity principle that we have set out for our legislation from day one after exit day, we are maintaining continuity where appropriate but making the necessary tweaks to ensure that the legislation remains effective.

The instruments address a range of highly technical issues, from cross-border trade to the energy market objectives of regulators. In the event that we leave the EU without a deal, they will remove inoperabilities in retained EU law, such as references to the EU or EU institutions that would make no sense following EU exit. They will ensure that in the event of no deal, we will retain the regulatory functions and frameworks that we need to keep Great Britain and Northern Ireland’s electricity and gas markets working effectively, facilitating continuity. We have prepared them extensively to minimise disruption and uncertainty.

The instruments will make similar—although not always identical—amendments to legislation applying to Northern Ireland and to Great Britain. One of our aims is to ensure continuity in the retained EU legislation that applies right across the UK, while recognising the unique nature of the single electricity market on the island of Ireland, which is constituted as an integrated market north and south of the border. I want it to be absolutely clear that although the instruments will not provide insurance against all the risks that we would run in a no-deal exit that would undermine the legal basis of the single electricity market, they will facilitate the necessary steps to ensure that such a situation is not prolonged. I reassure the Committee that we have worked closely with Ofgem in England, Wales and Scotland, and with the Department for the Economy and the Utility Regulator in Northern Ireland.

As the European Statutory Instruments Committee recognises, the instruments are

“technically modest”

and

“the changes are necessary to prepare the statute book for the possibility of a no-deal”.

Let me focus on the most significant changes that they will deliver.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Is the Minister basically confirming that should there be no deal, we will be fully prepared—at least from the point of view of her Department’s responsibilities—for such an outcome?

[Claire Perry]

I assure my hon. Friend that my Department has been at the forefront of preparation across Whitehall for the event of a no-deal Brexit. We have introduced a number of legislative instruments, some of which I have taken through the House myself, and we have done lots of work with third parties and stakeholders. The inescapable fact is that we do not have an agreement about an ongoing legal basis on which the single electricity market in the island of Ireland will operate, and that is a real concern. We can take legislative powers to mitigate the worst impacts of that, but they will not be taken before exit day because other even more urgent things are ahead of them in the queue. So to the extent of our ability, I agree that we are as prepared as we can be, quite rightly, for a no-deal Brexit.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

On that no-deal preparation, can the Minister confirm that a system to replace the REMIT reporting system that regulates the workings of the markets is still to be implemented?

[Claire Perry]

If I understand the hon. Gentleman correctly, he is referring to the capacity market in the UK. There are, indeed, technical challenges regarding the procedure of the capacity market, but I am not aware of any other regulatory concerns. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that one of the processes that has been working extremely well is that I and the relevant Ministers in the devolved Administrations are now speaking on an almost weekly basis to thrash through the elements of a no-deal Brexit and how they might affect us. I imagine that all would say we were well prepared.

[Alan Brown]

I am reading from paragraph 2.2 of the explanatory memorandum to the Electricity and Gas (Market Integrity and Transparency) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019:

“the REMIT Implementing Regulation, aims to prevent market manipulation and insider trading in the gas and electricity markets.”

That is what is in place now. Paragraph 12.3 explains that a domestic replacement system will need to be established and put in place, so does that not mean that there is a risk in that period of market manipulation and insider trading within the UK or GB domestic gas and electricity market?

[Claire Perry]

Part of the SI relating to the market integrity and transparency amendment will enable UK regulators—Ofgem and the utility regulator—to set up and operate domestic arrangements for market integrity and transparency that will mirror the EU regime. So one of the SIs before us today does indeed mitigate the risk the hon. Gentleman rightly identifies as unacceptable.

[Alan Brown]

What will the timescale for the replacement programme be? I note that there has been no formal consultation on the REMIT replacement, so what is the timescale for Ofgem implementing the new system?

[Claire Perry]

I hope I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s question during the rest of my remarks. My officials are scribbling frantically so that I can give a good response.

Returning to the first instrument, its principle is to amend and make workable the retained EU electricity and gas legislation that was created to harmonise energy markets and regulation across the EU. It also revokes the guidelines for trans-European energy infrastructure that set out processes for the development of EU infrastructure, as they will be irrelevant in a four-nation setting.

The second instrument amends retained EU gas legislation, ensuring that the regulatory framework relating to gas is maintained, including the technical EU network codes that govern the cross-border gas trade. That will maintain maximum business continuity and efficiency for UK gas operators and consumers. The instrument also maintains the framework for dealing with security of supply, such as matters relating to responding to gas supply emergencies, by updating the security of gas supply regulation to remove references to EU institutions.

The third instrument addresses EU electricity legislation relating to markets and trading, ensuring that these operate as part of domestic law. In particular, the instrument amends a wider package of rules, known as the EU network codes for electricity. It revokes the guidelines on the forward capacity allocation code and on capacity allocation and congestion management, which essentially govern how cross-border trade works within the EU’s internal energy market. Of course, it is a truism that the EU has made it clear that if we left without a deal we would no longer be part of that internal energy market, and that is where the potential legal risk to the single electricity market will derive from. The codes would have little to no practical application in UK law and are, therefore, being revoked by these statutory instruments.

We are, of course, keen to maintain cross-border trade and interconnector flow, which has been helpful in balancing our energy demand and keeping prices low. We are implementing alternative arrangements for cross-border trade with GB interconnectors, similar to those that were in place prior to the European market coupling. We have fall-back arrangements in place for the inter- connectors between the SEM and GB to ensure that trading can continue to take place in a no-deal scenario.

Excitingly, another aspect of the instrument is that it will amend the inter-transmission system operator compensation mechanism regulation, which established a mechanism to compensate national transmission system operators for hosting cross-border flows. Domestic UK legislation will no longer provide for such flow, because we cannot legislate for other countries; the cross-border elements will therefore be removed, while the provisions that relate to the setting of our own domestic network charges will be retained.

Similarly, the guideline on electricity balancing will largely be retained in Great Britain, with amendments to remove provisions that relate to a European platform for the exchange of balancing energy. The guideline will be revoked in Northern Ireland, because it does not apply to islands that are not connected with the rest of the EU.

The fourth instrument deals with EU legislation on the operation of the electricity system. Two of the EU regulations that it amends—the regulation establishing a system operation guideline and that establishing the emergency and restoration network code—concern the activities of energy system operators, which balance supply and demand on the system in real time and ensure that energy flows securely to customers across the UK.

Effectively, the instrument will amend the obligation on National Grid to co-operate with other system operators: it will require National Grid to assist the System Operator for Northern Ireland, with a similar reciprocal requirement on SONI, but will remove the obligation to co-operate with other system operators. Of course, it does not preclude such co-operation, which we encourage, but we do not believe that it is right for a GB system operator to be under a legal duty or commitment to co-operate that our EU neighbours would not legally require from their own system operators.

The unique shared arrangements that underpin the single electricity market on the island of Ireland require a different approach. In a no-deal scenario, EU regulations will oblige EirGrid, Ireland’s system operator, to endeavour to conclude a co-operation agreement with SONI because of the unique shared nature of the single electricity market. For Northern Ireland only, we are therefore retaining a similar requirement for SONI to ensure co-operation with EirGrid south of the border.

In addition, the instrument will revoke the connection codes, a set of three EU instruments for electricity. The codes will apply under EU law only from a date after exit and will therefore not be incorporated via the withdrawal Act. A similar issue will arise for some provisions of the gas transmission tariffs.

The last instrument deals with measures to ensure market integrity and transparency, which the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun raised. It will amend retained EU law to ensure that UK regulators can maintain effective market surveillance and enforcement, and that market participants can continue to publish relevant inside information. In answer to his question about the REMIT programme, there will be no reduction in the abilities of UK regulators; post exit, regulators will rely on alternative but available sources of market data. We are assured that that will not affect their ability to keep the market under surveillance. The programme could run for up to two years, until we are assured that appropriate arrangements are in place.

[Alan Brown]

Will the Minister give way?

[Claire Perry]

I am coming to the end of my speech, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to make a brief speech of his own.

In conclusion, although leaving the EU without a withdrawal agreement is not what the Government want or are aiming for, it is only prudent that we make the changes necessary to ensure that electricity and gas markets continue to function as normal, including doing all that we can to ensure the continuity of the single electricity market on the island of Ireland. I commend the draft regulations to the Committee.

[Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham; I am sure that you will have an interesting time chairing this debate on the five statutory instruments before the Committee. Perhaps I ought to say that I will not necessarily discuss the statutory instruments in the same order as the Minister, because I did not have any forewarning about the order that she would discuss them in. I am not criticising; I am merely saying that it may be difficult to establish the debate effectively, but I will do my best.

[Claire Perry]

Will the hon. Gentleman accept my apology for that omission? We have used the opportunity of many of our SI debates to have a very constructive conversation, so I apologise to him. I will take account of what he said, should we have the pleasure of doing this again.

[Dr Whitehead]

I thank the Minister very much for those comments. I sincerely hope that we will not have the pleasure of doing this again in a hurry because, among other things, I had to read all five SIs to get the sense of them. I have tried to place my concerns about them in descending order of importance. Therefore, I will not necessarily talk about them in the same sequence as the Minister, but I hope what I say will be reasonably intelligible.

Before proceeding, perhaps I ought to say that I appreciate the need to undertake code revision and to deal with the transmission code arrangements in such a way that they become properly operable within the UK on the day of a no-deal Brexit, which the Minister and I are both sincere in hoping will never come about. Nevertheless, we need to ensure that that is done, so far as is possible. This afternoon, I will talk not about that process itself, because it is necessary, but about some concerns over the nature of how it is being brought about in the SIs. The Opposition do not intend to oppose any of the SIs, but we do want to place on the record—and hopefully get the Minister’s comments on the record—our concerns over how the process has been brought about through the passage of the statutory instruments.

I will start with the draft Electricity Network Codes and Guidelines (System Operation and Connection) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which take the regulations that have set common standards for transmission system operations across member states and translate that arrangement into a UK arrangement—a new arrangement as far as TSOs are concerned. As the Minister alluded to, that will cover transmission system operations not only in England, Wales and Scotland, but in Northern Ireland, which has a different transmission system operations arrangement and, indeed, a different regulator. It nevertheless comes under the draft regulations for the purpose of the legislation that is required to bring all of this within a UK-wide ambit.

As the Minister said, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland have separate regulatory systems, but the transmission system and the energy market are completely integrated. Indeed, the Minister referred to the System Operator for Northern Ireland—SONI. That is not one of the few Japanese companies that is retaining its investment in Great Britain, but the operator of the Northern Ireland system. That operator has to operate in very close collaboration, including code congruence, with the system operator in the Republic of Ireland. That is because, among other things, two regulators deal with one grid and there is one single market as far as wholesale is concerned. That means that it is absolutely necessary that the codes between those two system operators are as congruent as possible in order to make the operation of a single grid effective.

It is quite clear that those codes will not be congruent in the case of a hard Brexit. As the explanatory memorandum to the SI makes clear, the network codes—“connection codes”—which come from the EU regulations are in the process of being incorporated into existing national regulatory frameworks, in order to make them accessible and familiar to UK parties. The document states—glass half full:

“The process of incorporation has been largely completed”.

An alternative way of saying that is: “the process of incorporation has not been completed”.

The Department states that it is the intention that those codes not incorporated already into a system to make them coterminous,

“will be created in domestic law under the powers of the Electricity and Gas (Powers to Make Subordinate Legislation) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 as soon as practicable after exit day.”

That means that legislation to make those codes congruent will not be in place by exit day, nor for quite a while afterwards, because it will be a question of getting a new piece of legislation through this House to carry out the rest of the code congruence work.

Strictly speaking, that means that the single grid will operate on convergent codes and not be legally watertight. The Minister has effectively said this afternoon that, in practice, good will between all people will ensure that electricity continues to flow and the market continues to operate. However, we need to be clear that will be done essentially on a good-will basis and not on a legal basis. Considerable risks are attached to the fact that those codes will not be congruent. If there are major issues about code compliance on both sides of the border, as far as the grid is concerned, there will be no easy way to remedy that if there is a hard Brexit. That is my strong concern about the regulations.

I turn to the draft Electricity and Gas (Market Integrity and Transparency) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. As the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun said, that covers the implementation and scope of REMIT regulations. REMIT is a very effective system. It came into UK legislation via regulation and is therefore not the subject of a separate raft of legislation. Nevertheless, it operates very effectively as far as the UK is concerned. It is a system that aims to prevent market manipulation and insider trading in energy markets. It does so through the registration of participants, the reporting of energy data and the publication of inside information that would have an impact on prices. That registration, reporting and publication is done through EU agencies. The purpose of this SI is to transfer that into UK arrangements, so that, as much as possible, UK reporting and transparency work as they did previously in the EU.

However, it is clear from this SI that not everything that is currently undertaken by REMIT will be incorporated into UK legislation. It is stated that the regime that is being legislated for will commence four weeks after Brexit day, but will apply only to registration, inside information and transparency data. Other forms of reporting, such as data relating to transactions in wholesale markets, will not start until the regulator has reviewed the market data requirements. It is suggested that if the regulator decides to implement full market data reporting, as currently required under REMIT, a further three months’ notice of commencement will be given.

That means that only a part of REMIT will indisputably come into UK operation on a guaranteed basis. The regulator will have the opportunity upon review to translate the rest of the REMIT regulations into UK operation, but it may decide that the further pieces of reporting and data transfer relating to transactions in the wholesale market will not be part of the UK reporting arrangements. If that happens, there seems to be nothing that we in this House can do about it. Perhaps the Minister will indicate that there is something we can do about it. Perhaps she will say that we have effective legislative control over bringing the whole of REMIT into UK concerns, and that we are not just hoping that the regulator, which presumably will have concerns about resources, procedures and various other things, will complete the transfer. It would have been a good idea to undertake the whole of the transfer in this SI. I am not sure why there is only a partial transfer. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments and reassurances on that.

The draft Electricity and Gas etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019—the titles are getting a little more ragged as we get through the process—relates to the licence conditions concerning transmission and interconnections, which arise from the Gas Act 1986, the Electricity Act 1989 and the Utilities Act 2000. Those Acts all contain substantial references to EU directives. That is fine, as far as England, Wales and Scotland go, but there is a problem, in terms of translation, with Northern Ireland. I have already said that Northern Ireland has a completely coterminous grids arrangement with southern Ireland, and that there is a single energy market.

The explanatory memorandum states that no changes have been made to the definition of a single energy market,

“due to a practical need for the definitions of the SEM in Ireland’s and Northern Ireland’s legislation to continue to align, (which they currently do).”

It continues:

“This course of action will better preserve the stability of the SEM”.

Again, practically, that will mean that, if there is a hard Brexit, there will be a different regime concerning licensing and collaboration on licensing in Northern Ireland and in the rest of the United Kingdom. For Northern Ireland, a number of references to relations with the EU concerning those licences will be left in, as will EU arbitration arrangements. As the Minister mentioned, it may well be the case that, through good will, this actually works in practice. However, we ought to be very clear that there will not be congruity between the licensing arrangements—not in this instance between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland, but between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. I would be interested to hear whether the Minister thinks that that may create particular issues or whether she is confident that can be overcome at an early stage.

The fourth statutory instrument, the draft Gas (Security of Supply and Network Codes) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, provides for co-operation to safeguard security of gas supply between member states and for solidarity between groups when a member state finds itself unable to supply households or essential services. Again, that is included in existing UK legislation through an EU regulation. At present, should the UK have a problem with our gas supply, there is a solidarity arrangement that requires other member states to come to our aid. Equally, if someone gets their gas supply cut off by the Russians, we have a reciprocal obligation, where we can, to come to their aid. I appreciate that that is not perhaps a central issue—the Minister and I have had discussions on this previously. The security of UK gas supplies is not a particularly interconnector, grid-based, serious European issue. Nevertheless, this SI cuts off all those methods of collaboration and solidarity—necessarily, because we will no longer have a member state’s obligation to act in solidarity or to come to other member states’ aid. However, we need to remember that they are required to come to our aid as well. The current regulations also include regional assistance arrangements. Since we will not be in any region, we cannot be part of any regional assistance arrangements either.

Will the Minister clarify whether she thinks that that is the end of the matter and the end of co-operation and solidarity, and that by simply revoking these arrangements in this particular SI, nothing of the sort will happen in the future? One hopes, in terms of common sense and fairness between ourselves and EU member states, that some sort of gas interconnection solidarity arrangement might continue. Does the Minister have any intention to pursue by other means such an arrangement, which could be beneficial both for us and for EU member states in the future, just as this arrangement has been beneficial for us in the past?

Finally—Sir Graham, you will be delighted that I am coming to the word “finally”—the Minister mentioned the unfortunate episode concerning the capacity market. She knows that we are talking today about what would happen in the event of a no-deal Brexit and about all these arrangements that currently pertain because we are a member state. The arrangements concerning the capacity market, which arise from state aid permission by the European Union in the first instance, also arise from the fact that we are a member state. If we are not a member state on 1 April, we will not be bound by those arrangements. In the event of a no-deal Brexit, does the Minister intend to restore the operation of the capacity market in the UK immediately, given that she would not be beholden to any UK arrangements concerning the operation of the capacity market on that date? Or does she intend to review the operation of the UK capacity market on the basis of what was decided in the European courts, regardless of whether we are bound by the state aid arrangements that pertained previously within the EU? I would be interested in hearing from the Minister whether she has any plans in that direction, and if so what they are.

--- Later in debate ---

[Claire Perry]

I thank hon. Members for an extensive delve into what are a series of deeply technical and quite complicated SIs. As always in this process, we have learned a lot. I will try to answer some of the specific questions raised.

The first, from the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, was on the risks and timing of the legal underpinning for the connections code. It is our intention to make further regulations, under the Electricity and Gas (Powers to Make Subordinate Legislation) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018, to incorporate those connection codes into domestic law. We absolutely appreciate the need for certainty, and we are therefore looking for a way to take forward the necessary provisions in a timely manner.

I can tell from the hon. Gentleman’s face that he does not think that that is acceptable. As I think he already knows, the process of triaging preparation for no deal has been very focused on the things we absolutely must do so as not to face a massive threat on day one, while there are other things that, although they might pose a legal question that might have to be addressed later, we can safely assume can be done.

The hon. Gentleman referenced good will, and in the absence of a legislative branch of Government in Northern Ireland, I pay tribute to the Northern Ireland Office and its civil servants, and indeed to the devolved Administrations, which have been incredibly helpful in working on this good-will basis. It is in nobody’s interests for a well-functioning single energy market or internal energy market to suddenly fail, and I think everyone is appraised of those risks.

The hon. Gentleman’s second point was on REMIT and why we are essentially having only a partial transfer. That is because Ofgem and the other utility regulators are confident that that is what they need to ensure appropriate scrutiny and appropriate levels of market information, and that there will not be a decrease in effectiveness on day one or during the period in which they will bring forward alternative arrangements.

The hon. Gentleman also raised the definition of the SEM. That will still refer to EU obligations due to a practical need for the definitions of the SEM to continue to align; as I mentioned, that is one of the few derogations, if you like. Our intention is to use the powers of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act to amend the definition of the SEM, in parallel with Ireland, once a new definition is agreed with Ireland in due course. As I have made clear, this is a contingent problem; it will not mean that energy will not flow in Northern Ireland on day one, but it may lead to legal uncertainty about the functioning of the market and concerns about future capacity market auctions. We are all keen to avoid that.

The hon. Members for Southampton, Test and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun raised the question of the removal of solidarity of supply. We have almost never had to rely on the solidarity regulation, at least in my reading of energy history, because we have one of the most globally developed gas markets in the world to provide security of supply through supply diversity. We are in an extremely fortunate position, not only because we can generate our own sovereign gas offshore and potentially onshore, but because in the past few years we have relied heavily on imports of liquefied natural gas, generally from diversified sources including Qatar, the US and our pipeline with Norway, which is not in the EU and is not subject to the solidarity regulation.

The hon. Member for Southampton, Test makes an extremely valuable point, however. It is absolutely our intention to work collaboratively with our closest neighbours, whether on energy policy or on climate change mitigation, and ensure that none of us faces a threat to security of supply—particularly from state agents that do not have Europe’s interest at heart. Even though we are removing the solidarity provision, which I believe has never been used, it is right to assume that we will continue to be good neighbours to Europe.

A question was asked about the capacity market. Of course, we have said that even in a no-deal Brexit we will still abide by state aid rules. We were instrumental in putting those rules into legislation; we believe in competition and not unfair subsidies of particular industries. Ofgem assures us that the current challenge is based not on the operation of the market but on procedure. We will keep working to ensure that the market is fully restored and continues to successfully deliver low-cost and low-carbon energy to the UK markets.

The hon. Gentleman also raised the differences in licensing between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The Northern Ireland regulator is identifying the gaps in the licensing regime. We will consider amendments in due course, but since these are not “life and limb” regulations, it was considered acceptable to allow a short period of delay. However, we continue to work closely with the Northern Ireland civil service on these points.

The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun raised impact assessments. He is right that the assessed costs of the draft regulations do not trigger a full impact assessment. The long-term economic analysis published last November and the document that we published today about the economic impact of a no-deal Brexit encapsulate his broader points about the possible impact of a disorderly Brexit on energy costs, among other things. It is perfectly right that we have not done an impact assessment for the draft regulations.

The hon. Gentleman also asked about the timescales for the alternative arrangements for cross-border trading. The Great Britain interconnectors to the continent are agreeing access rules with the regulators. Proposals went out for consultation earlier this year, and we have nothing to indicate that anybody wants to stop the free and fair trading of energy via those interconnectors, since all parties benefit from the arrangements.

[Alan Brown]

I accept what the Minister says about ongoing consultation with the regulators, but if there is a no-deal Brexit, what will be the expected timeframe for getting the trading arrangements in place? Obviously that will affect not only the existing interconnectors, but any business cases being proposed for new interconnectors. Everybody needs to know what the trading arrangements will be.

[Claire Perry]

The hon. Gentleman states very succinctly why there are

many uncertainties associated with a disorderly Brexit, only some of which the Government can mitigate with legislation such as that before the Committee. That is the reason for my strong view that the best way to avoid such consequences is to avoid a no-deal Brexit. I have said before and will say again that it is therefore incumbent on us all to vote for the deal before us, so that we can leave with a deal on 29 March, as we promised to those we represent. That offer remains on the table.

[Mr Baron]

The Minister talks of a disorderly Brexit if there is no deal, but she has been part of a Government who for two years have made the promise that preparations for no deal are ongoing and will be met on time. Is she now saying that there is a problem with that, and that the assurances we have received at the Dispatch Box have been false?

[Claire Perry]

I am happy to assure my hon. Friend that the Government’s policy has always been to leave with a deal on 29 March, and that the Government, and indeed the civil service, have busted every sinew to ensure that dozens of pieces of legislation have been brought forward, and dozens of contingency planning meetings have happened. However, he will know that the unpicking of 40 years of legislation and co-operative economic relationships after the triggering of article 50, with a two-year ticking clock, would test the resolve of any Government. It is extremely unfair of him to suggest that no-deal preparation has not been done effectively. What has been done effectively is mitigation against the worst impact of a disorderly Brexit.

[Mr Baron]

Will the Minister give way?

[Claire Perry]

No, I will not give way. I encourage my hon. Friend to read what has been published today in response to a request from the House of Commons about the economic impacts of a no-deal Brexit, to see how very damaging a disorderly Brexit would be. Of course, as I say to him and all Members, the way to avoid a no-deal Brexit is to vote for the deal and deliver the Brexit that so many people voted for—as it has been Government policy to honour the referendum—so we can leave with a deal on 29 March.

[Mr Baron]

I am sure that the Minister did not mean to, but she inadvertently put words into my mouth. I was not suggesting that efforts had not been put into making sure we did not leave in a disorderly way. I just referred her to the fact that Minister upon Minister—and indeed the Prime Minister—assured us that we had two years of no-deal preparation and would be prepared on 29 March for no deal, should that be the logical conclusion of triggering article 50. I hope that the Minister is not going against the Prime Minister and suggesting that we will not now be ready.

[Claire Perry]

I fear that we are splitting hairs about definitions of readiness. Of course what we are doing today, as we have done on many other occasions, is ensuring that we have the necessary regulations and preparations in place to mitigate the worst impacts of a no-deal Brexit. Unfortunately there are some aspects of a no-deal Brexit that we simply cannot resolve, despite the efforts of the Government, or efforts in this House. I refer my hon. Friend again to my comment that the best way to avoid having to face any of the impacts of a disorderly no-deal Brexit, prepared or not, is to vote for the deal. I am assured by many colleagues that sensible people like him understand that prospect, and that we face a disorderly Brexit or no deal, which would be an absolute derogation of our parliamentary duty. I look forward to voting on the deal with him in due course.

With that, I feel, if you will forgive me, Sir Graham, that we are well outside the boundaries of the debate, and on that basis I shall conclude.

[Mr Baron]

On a point of order, Sir Graham. I have to put it on record that the Minister suggested that I would support the withdrawal agreement with her in the Lobby, and that I will support it as she suggested, provided that we sort the backstop out, as has been my position and that of many of my hon. Friends for some time—with your help, of course.

UK Deep Sea Mining Industry

Claire Perry Excerpts

Wednesday 20th February 2019 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie, and to respond to the debate secured by my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray), who set out her extremely interesting and detailed knowledge of the current situation and the opportunities presented by new technology. She is known to many of us as one who has an almost unique perspective on these matters. Matters maritime and mining run in the blood of Cornish men and women, and she has certainly demonstrated that she is capable of talking with great knowledge about both.

My hon. Friend was responsible for delivering the Deep Sea Mining Act 2014. A private Member’s Bill, it did some incredible work by amending the Deep Sea Mining (Temporary Provisions) Act 1981, which provided only powers to license applications in relation to polymetallic nodules—a rather niche area. Through her work, the 2014 Act extended that to apply to all minerals found in the deep sea, opening the way, as she rightly said, for the UK to sponsor applications to the ISA for all minerals in the future. It was striking that that Bill received cross-party support in Parliament. During its passage, my hon. Friend expressed the need to carry out economic exploitation in a sensitive environment with the utmost environmental concern and caution.

My hon. Friend also managed to steer the Marine Navigation Act 2013 successfully through Parliament. Again, that is a tribute to her commitment and her family’s longstanding involvement with the sea. She does a brilliant job of representing her constituency. She pointed out how we need to move forward in maritime matters and mining.

I will start by giving some context. The UN convention on the law of the sea established that the mineral resources of the seabed are the common heritage of mankind and sit beyond national jurisdiction. As my hon. Friend well knows, reserves of terrestrial minerals are dwindling. There is a rich opportunity out there, which she rightly points out is critical to many of the new technology challenges that we are facing and rising to meet. That has led to pressure on the International Seabed Authority to set out a framework for mining the seabed. There have been 29 exploration contracts so far issued from 20 countries to bodies including state-owned enterprises and commercial organisations with a state sponsor, which has been the model that the UK has put forward. I believe that it is approaching two licences so far.

The Deep Sea Mining Act, of which my hon. Friend was the proud steward, enabled the domestic deep sea mining sector to be regulated in a modern way that has due regard for the economic opportunity and aims to prevent damage to the environment. The ISA is now working towards agreeing a mining code that contains technical, financial and environmental provisions by a deadline of March 2020. The UK delegation has been leading at those negotiations.

Given your geographic interest, Mr Hosie, you will know that we have a very profound heritage in the extraction of hydrocarbons and minerals, both onshore and offshore, with the proudest tradition of high environmental standards. We will continue that commitment to transparency, science and evidence-based policy making and environmentally sound regulation to ensure the effective protection of deep sea habitats and biodiversity. The mining code, once it is in place, will enable the ISA to issue so-called “exploitation contracts”—that sounds awful. We should perhaps find a new name for them—perhaps “exploration contracts”. Of course, the UK would need to consider whether these regulations need to be supplemented with additional domestic provisions in line with the Deep Sea Mining Act 2014.

The UK has sponsored two 15-year exploration contracts on behalf of UK Seabed Resources Ltd, which is a subsidiary of Lockheed Martin, the US corporation. The contracts are for polymetallic nodules in the Clarion Clipperton fracture zone of the Pacific. As my hon. Friend has pointed out, these activities and others may allow us to access minerals and metals and achieve safety and security of supply of those materials in the long term.

Also, my hon. Friend rightly joined up the dots to point out that when we talk about our clean growth strategy and the opportunity for the UK’s economy to benefit from investment in low-carbon technologies, such as battery storage and solar energy, they require some of the self-same minerals and metals that are there to be found. If we do it carefully, this work will help us to protect our environment and meet our climate change obligations while creating hundreds of thousands of jobs.

A MOG—machinery of government—change is a very boring term. This whole area has been subject to cross-Government movement recently, and indeed it has been moved to my Department, and I am now the responsible Minister. My hon. Friend will know that I take the issues in my portfolio seriously and try to get things done. Hopefully, it will give her some comfort to know that this subject now sits within the clean growth area of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, having been transferred recently from my excellent colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I mean no disrespect to them when I say that it may now form part of a more coherent view of the economic potential before us. As the responsible Minister for oil and gas in the UK as well, both onshore and offshore, I assure my hon. Friend that the proud commitment to high regulatory standards will of course apply. In BEIS, we are leading a cross-Whitehall working group to co-ordinate Government activities ahead of the finalisation of the mining code.

My hon. Friend asked me about some of the activities that the Department is undertaking. We have undertaken to analyse the potential economic value to the UK of the first two licences granted in the Clarion Clipperton fracture zone. That work should be completed this summer, ahead of the UN’s ratifications of the regulations this year. We have also made a commitment to the ISA that UK Seabed Resources Ltd, our commercial operator, will undertake a plan of work throughout the period of exploration, reporting back in a very detailed way on all of its exploration activities, including the considerable amount of work it has done on environmental exploration, so that we have a good dataset upon which to base any future regulations.

My hon. Friend will know that this is a long-term investment, so it is quite right to do the turf-rolling now and indeed to make sure that the regulations are fit for purpose. I think it is accepted that commercial-scale deep sea mining operations will probably not begin before the middle of the next decade. Having said that, she pointed out that other countries are starting to move faster than previous estimates suggested, so it may well be the case that these challenges are pulled forward and that we will need to move a little faster. However, understanding the environmental implications of mining some of the deepest seabed or seafloor regions, particularly in the Pacific, is a monumental task.

I pay tribute to the superb piece of work put together by the cross-party Environmental Audit Committee, which is chaired by the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). The Committee did a really superb piece of work in looking at many of these issues, including sustainable seas in general, but very specifically the opportunities and challenges of deep sea mining. That work is really well worth a read.

My hon. Friend asked me essentially what the Government’s plans are. The decision on whether or not our UK-sponsored contractor will go into production will be a commercial one, but we will need to consider—on the evidence—whether we are prepared to sponsor an exploitation licence and on what conditions such a licence should be applied.

I have mentioned before my hon. Friend’s very coherent and eloquent statements about the economic importance of deep sea mining; I suspect that she might have had something to do with persuading the former Prime Minister of the value of this activity, and she quoted some superb statistics to show why it should be examined with great interest. I emphasise, however, that we need to understand our obligations to protect the seabed as well as the water columns and the currents, because the last thing we want to do is to start treating the seas as an infinitely exploitable resource.

We will continue to ensure that effective and binding environmental standards have been adopted and adhered to before we grant any commercial exploration licences, and that the mining activity is part of a well-evidenced environmental plan. My hon. Friend knows that we will continue to use our significant global influence to promote at global level the adoption of our transparent, science-based and environmentally sound approach, and a set of principles that are based on precautionary work, rather than responsiveness.

I am pleased to report that the UK is taking a leading role in international negotiations. As my hon. Friend knows, perhaps better than many others, we have a wide range of deep sea scientific and engineering expertise, and the opportunity to onshore many of the jobs and much of the intellectual property from that is profound. The important question we need to ask ourselves is how to balance exploration in environmentally sensitive areas against the potential risks. I am confident that we can do that; we have done it in many other environments around the world and can continue to do so.

My hon. Friend asked some specific questions about funding for the proposals and about research and development investment. I am pleased to say that UK Research and Innovation would be open to accepting a deep sea mining proposal in a future industrial strategy challenge fund competition. She also asked whether we have made an economic assessment of the dependency on rare earth minerals. I do not know, but I will find out and write to her. I am sure that someone has done that analysis and I am keen to see it.

I offer my heartfelt thanks to my hon. Friend for securing such an interesting and timely debate. As the Minister responsible, I am pleased to tell her that I am committed to taking the issue forward, taking into account the opportunity and what we can do to ensure the work is done in the most environmentally sustainable manner.

Question put and agreed to.

Heat Networks: Greenwich and Woolwich

Claire Perry Excerpts

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, in particular as you have a long-standing interest in the whole area of decarbonisation.

I sincerely congratulate the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook) on securing the debate. He, as usual, gave us a thoughtful, informed and passionate exposition of the problem. In his current position, and as a councillor for half a decade, he has campaigned hard on such matters. He has also been assiduous in his correspondence with me. We have discussed the matter face to face and via correspondence on multiple occasions. I will address some of his concerns and come back to him on his action points—as we all know, I am a woman who likes to get things done.

To set the scene for why this is an important debate for the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and more generally, we believe that heat networks have an important part to play in the decarbonisation of the heat system in future. About half a million customers are part of a heat network, with about 14,000 individual schemes throughout the UK. As he has pointed out, however, there have been ongoing concerns about treatment of consumers and effective regulation of a small monopoly provider. That is why the CMA produced a report, to which we responded.

Last December we published a commitment to developing a market framework that will protect customers, including through regulation where needed. I believe that five of the seven networks in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency are members of the Heat Trust, to which he referred. Their feedback and that of others in the market has demonstrated widespread support for that commitment.

An immediate priority is to tackle the lower-performing networks. The hon. Gentleman makes a very strong case as to why some of those are in his constituency. Before addressing the broader question of how we regulate the market, it is hugely important to address the problems of people who are already on lower-performing networks.

Of course, the market is already regulated, and that includes consumers on networks, who are covered by general consumer protection regulation. In addition, there are the Heat Network (Metering and Billing) Regulations 2014, and customers on a Heat Trust registered scheme have free access to the energy ombudsman’s services. I was very pleased to meet energy ombudsman representatives only a few days ago and welcome their commitment to improving customer service for all customers, including those on heat network schemes.

Our large-scale survey in 2017 found that, on average, heat network customers are as satisfied with their heating systems as non-heat-network consumers, and that, on average, they pay about £100 less for their heating and hot water. Clearly, however, there are also examples of consumers on heat network schemes who are more likely to experience a loss of heating and less likely to receive a bill statement or account summary. As the hon. Gentleman eloquently pointed out, that reduces people’s understanding of what they are being billed for and possibly their ability to campaign to change suppliers. Heat networks are perceived reasonably well, but clearly there is much more to be done. There is evidence that some customers are getting poor deals in terms of value for money—the prices that they are paying.

Therefore, as we said in December, we agree that the sector needs to be improved. We have set out our priorities for addressing the CMA’s recommendations. We strongly believe that a long-term market framework needs to be underpinned by regulation, with Ofgem best placed to take on the role—essentially, taking on whichever legislative powers we agree to give it. As the hon. Gentleman said, we will consult further on those powers later this year.

As I said at the beginning of my speech, that is not just because we want to ensure that consumers have adequate redress, particularly if they are on low-performing networks, but because there are huge potential benefits, both for customers and for decarbonisation. Heat accounts for about one third of the UK’s carbon emissions. We have to cut emissions from heat. We have had various other schemes, such as the renewable heat incentive and the energy company obligation. In February, I opened the heat networks investment project, which will see up to £320 million of capital funding invested in heat network projects through grants and loans across England and Wales.

The hon. Gentleman, who is standing up for his constituents in Greenwich and Woolwich, will know that many of the early heat networks came about in London. There are real planning incentives to bring forward networks in London, and there have been some excellent examples of that being done. I was happy to convene an investor roundtable a few months ago, to understand how we could reduce barriers outside London to ensure that networks could be deployed more fully. As we roll them out, though, we have to be mindful of the consumer experience, so we not only intend to bring forward legislation, but want to ensure that the Heat Trust or equivalent standards are widely adopted, are in place, and are actually delivering the consumer support required.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Heat Trust is a UK-wide independent consumer protection scheme, which draws on the terms of service offered to gas and electricity consumers. Heat Trust membership continues to grow, but, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, right now it is a voluntary scheme. He makes an excellent suggestion: I will indeed, while we are in this period of refining and consulting on the regulatory requirements, commit to writing to all heat network members that are not part of the Heat Trust scheme, essentially to suggest that it is a very high-quality voluntary scheme and that we would like to ensure that all members sign up to it. That was a very good suggestion.

We are absolutely committed to heat networks. It has been good to learn from some of the experiences, both good and bad, in London. It is no comfort to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, however, that his area still has networks that he and others believe are providing a poor-quality service. I will therefore leave this debate with redoubled vigour to ensure that we consult on and bring forward the necessary framework as quickly as possible. I have to say, however, that the way to unclog the current parliamentary timetable, which is snowed up with Brexit, is of course to vote for the deal, so that we can get on with our lives and get on with dealing with the very many other issues that affect the day-to-day lives of all our constituents.

Question put and agreed to.

Mineworkers’ Pension Scheme

Claire Perry Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

May I sincerely congratulate the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock) on securing this debate and on a superb, passionate speech? It was brilliant to hear.

I need to declare a strong interest in this matter. There is a reason why I take my stewardship of the scheme incredibly seriously, and that is that my mother-in-law is a beneficiary. She is a widow and her husband, Bill O’Neill, who was a leading light in the coke workers union, died very young as a result of his many years of service underground. Indeed, my husband turned down a job in the Keresley pit at the age of 16, but got into trouble at university for helping to organise the blockade of ports on the east coast to stop the imports of Polish coal, so I will not take any lessons from anybody in this Chamber about the impact of the scheme or the feelings that have been raised over the years, which were so powerfully expressed by the hon. Lady. I completely share her view that one thing that we always need to focus on is the sheer blood, sweat, tears and toil that went into building our industrial revolution. One of the marvellous things about my current portfolio is the opportunity perhaps to repurpose some of that work, through things such as geothermal energy projects, to basically create energy for the next generation, based on the effort that went in.

I want to pick up some of the hon. Lady’s points about how the scheme is working and touch on some of the issues around cash flow. It is a little unfair of the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) to say that there has been no engagement. There has been a lot of engagement on this process. I continue to be interested in what the trustees are bringing forward; indeed, I was discussing this with the Chancellor only today.

[Nick Smith]

I understand that the mineworkers’ pension scheme trustees tried to meet the Department before Christmas to talk about the guarantee but have still not heard from the Department about a meeting. Will the Minister pledge this evening to meet the mineworkers’ pension scheme trustees within the next fortnight?

[Claire Perry]

I will, but I met the trustees last year. I think that they have done an exceptionally good job, and I shall say more about that later. We have discussed their proposals with them, and I am shocked to hear that they were told that a meeting was not available to them. A meeting will be available whenever they want it.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Was a review process written into the 50:50 split when the decision was made? If it was not, would not agreeing to a review now be the honourable thing for the Government to do, not least because the decision was made more than 20 years ago?

[Claire Perry]

This is a factual point with which I intend to deal shortly. The split has already been reviewed. It was last reviewed in 2002 by a Labour Energy Minister, who said:

“the trustees have been advised that the Government does not feel it would be right to adjust the current 50/50 surplus sharing arrangements.”

He also pointed out that markets could go up or down. In fact, in 2002, the scheme was in deficit, as it was again in 2008 and 2009. The then Labour Government decided that, given the future unpredictability of the scheme, it would not be correct to review the pension surpluses. So it is not correct to say that the decision has not been reviewed. Indeed, a Labour Government made the decision not to change the surplus sharing arrangements.

[Stephanie Peacock]

The Minister will acknowledge that that review took place quite a few years ago, when the scheme was in a very different state. Given that there are now more than 150,000 fewer former miners and their widows, the risk for the Government is substantially less than it was then.

[Claire Perry]

The hon. Lady has made a valid point but, as she has also said, if the scheme had been reviewed at that point, many more thousands of people would have received a higher pension. The decision not to conduct a review was made partly because of the volatility that is inherent in a scheme for which the Government act as guarantor, and partly because, notwithstanding the idea that this is cash that sits in the Government’s coffers, the Government have no money of their own. In many instances, the money that has come into the scheme has been spent directly in the coalfield communities. We have spent more than £1 billion —[Interruption.] Hang on. We have spent more than £1 billion of Government money in the coalfield communities over the last 20 years, and we have committed an additional £70 million since 2010. The point is that, if money comes to the Government, it is part of the Government’s general receipts and can then be recycled. That money has contributed to the benefits that many other pensioners have received.

[Grahame Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Claire Perry]

Let me make some progress. [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Some important questions have been asked, and I am sure that Members want to hear the answers from the Minister.

[Claire Perry]

I am afraid that there is a fundamental fallacy in some of the arguments that have been advanced. I suspect that the Labour Government made the decision not to review the surplus sharing for the same reason, which is that the money that comes to the Government is then being spent to support pensioners in many ways, providing them with, for instance, free prescriptions and bus passes. It is not correct to say that the money is just sitting there.

[Sir William Cash]

rose—

[Claire Perry]

No, I will not give way. Some important questions have been answered. I think that I was generous in allowing two speeches to be made before my response.

As the hon. Member for Barnsley East rightly said, the scheme continues to function and the numbers are falling. The only scheme that resembles this one is the one that was set up for rail workers. Again, the Government are the guarantor, which means that any liabilities incurred by the scheme will come back to them. For that reason, the trustees, who include ex-miners, have done an amazing investment job. Because of that guarantee—it is basically a Government-backed scheme—the returns are at least a third higher than they would otherwise have been, so it has generated a lot of value.

[Nick Smith]

rose—

[Claire Perry]

Does the hon. Gentleman want answers, or does he want to keep asking questions? Because I love the hon. Gentleman, I will take a question from him.

[Nick Smith]

I have listened to what the Minister has said. We argue that the Government have received at least £3.5 billion in surplus in recent years. The Minister says that they have spent £1 billion in coalfield communities in the last 20 years. Labour Members feel that our communities have been short-changed by £2 billion. Given that the last review took place nearly 20 years ago, why will the Minister not do the right thing now and agree to another review?

[Claire Perry]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be the first to acknowledge—the point has already been made—that, sadly, one of the results has been that many people who are in receipt of this pension scheme, including the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell), who was in his place, no longer live in those coalfield communities, but they have benefited as pensioners from many of the other pension benefits that that income has gone towards providing.

I met, and was incredibly impressed with the trustees. Relative to other schemes, the results they have provided and the compassion and generosity with which they administer the scheme are second to none, and we should pay tribute to them for that. I point out again that the returns from the Government underwriting of the scheme are about a third higher in real terms than they would have been.

I want to turn to something that has been suggested by the trustees. When I met them—and perhaps the hon. Member for Barnsley East and I should meet them together to have the same conversation; I will be happy to do that—they indicated to me that they understood that changing the surplus sharing arrangements, as was considered by the last Labour Government and rejected, was not the biggest priority. The biggest priority was protecting the accrued bonuses and making sure that the scheme could proceed on that basis. They have come forward with some excellent proposals and I commend them for that. I had a brief discussion this evening with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor about my interest and the Treasury’s interest in properly reviewing those proposals and taking them forward. I am very happy to have those conversations face to face, as I have committed to do.

I genuinely admire the hon. Lady’s speech. It is brilliant to see her and so many colleagues standing up for a group of people who many may argue gave more to the system than they received from it. As a family member, I am proud to acknowledge that and to stand up as the steward of the scheme and pledge to her that I will do my best to ensure that it continues to deliver.

I do want to say that the trustees’ proposals are excellent, albeit we need to look at the cash flow implications. We will continue to explore options and I am very happy to do that on a cross-party basis with all Members who would be interested in doing so.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Claire Perry Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)]

18. What steps his Department has taken to ensure that solar power can compete on a level playing field with other energy generation technologies.

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

At a time when people think parliamentarians are engaged in some sort of slugfest, I commend the Opposition parties for perfect collaboration on this first question.

Solar is a UK success story, as I know all hon. Members will recognise. The feed-in tariff scheme, under which 80% of installations have been solar, has cost £5.9 billion to date in supporting those 830,000 installations. Prices have fallen over 80% since the introduction of the scheme, which is why we are amending it, as I set out in the smart export guarantee consultation, and I look forward to receiving the response of the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake).

[Tom Brake]

Does the Minister agree that households exporting to the grid should be paid a fair rate? Will she ensure an explicit minimum price for exported electricity to allow the market to recover some confidence that new solar homes will receive treatment consistent with that of other electricity generators?

[Claire Perry]

I completely agree that nobody should be exporting power to the grid for free, or indeed below zero as has happened in some other countries. The level at which that export tariff and the mechanism are set is a matter for consultation, and I look forward to the right hon. Gentleman’s points on that subject.

[Helen Hayes]

Industry surveys show that 30% to 40% of solar firms installing domestic systems are now contemplating closure, given the mess that the Minister’s Department has made of policies for smaller-scale renewables. The Government’s own figures show that deployment of solar PV was less than 300 MW last year, down 90% compared with 2015, and Ofgem’s targeted charging review now threatens even the few solar farms that have been built without subsidy. Will she now meet the Solar Trade Association and its colleagues as a matter of urgency to discuss this latest threat to a part of our energy market that is critical to delivering carbon reduction?

[Claire Perry]

I agree entirely with the hon. Lady about this being an important part of our energy market, which is why I am so proud that 99% of our solar installations have happened since a Conservative-led Government have been in power. I frequently meet the Solar Trade Association, which is always a pleasure. I encourage her to look beyond a regime of subsidy for delivering renewable energy, as the evidence of the numbers suggests that there are 2.3 GW of solar projects in the pipeline that already have or are awaiting planning permission and that could be delivered without subsidy. We are moving rapidly to a subsidy-free world for solar generation. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady shakes her head, but it is true. It is important that we do not equate subsidy with output, and with actually delivering the power we want.

[John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that making solar power compulsory for all new builds would be beneficial for the homeowner, would remove any need for subsidy and would cost the taxpayer nothing?

[Claire Perry]

My hon. Friend raises an excellent point. He will know that building regulations now set minimum energy standards, couched in performance terms rather than being prescriptivist about the types of technology that should be used. Builders are increasingly adding renewable energy systems, but I am always interested to see what more we can do to bring forward such a good way of lowering bills and CO₂ emissions.

[Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Both solar and wind have been very successful in driving down industry costs, but does my hon. Friend recognise that that poses a challenge to technologies such as wave and tidal that are competing against solar and wind? Such technologies are chasing a number that is always falling faster than they can keep up with.

[Claire Perry]

I do. I was pleased to meet the Marine Energy Council a few days ago. The meeting was supported by a cross-party group of MPs, and we discussed exactly this issue and how, in a cost-effective way, we might look to continue supporting technologies that are further from market.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

On Friday children across the country will go on strike, saying they have lost confidence in the Government’s ability to tackle climate change. Does the Minister think these children are wrong, or can she explain to them why the UK is spending £10.5 billion to subsidise fossil fuels—more than any other country in Europe—at the same time as scrapping the solar export tariff and forcing some people to give their surplus solar energy back to the grid for free?

[Claire Perry]

There are a number of inconsistencies in that question, but I think it is incredible what young people across the world are doing. They did the same thing at COP, where we had some compelling statements. Young people expect us to wake up to the reality of the future, which is why I am so proud to stand here and tell them that they live in a country that has led the world in decarbonisation over the last 20 years and is the first major industrial economy to ask for real advice, rather than a few fake words, on how we will get to net zero. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman chunters on about net fossil fuels, but there are no direct subsidies for fossil fuels. I think he is suggesting that we should not have an oil and gas industry in the UK. I would like to see how that plays out with his colleagues north of the border.

[Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s commitment that no small-scale producer should export electricity to the grid for nothing. Will she confirm that as well as applying to solar, that would extend to small-scale hydro?

[Claire Perry]

Yes, that is absolutely correct. I know that my hon. Friend takes an interest in this, so I wish to emphasise that we recognise the value of community energy, which has benefited in many cases from this scheme. If people have the chance to respond to the consultation emphasising the value of that, it would be much appreciated.

[Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

2. What steps he is taking to support people in insecure work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con)]

7. What steps he has taken to ensure diversity of supply in the energy market.

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

My right hon. Friend is quite right that we have a diverse energy supply and we must continue to maintain that, guided by the principles of lowest cost, lowest carbon and the maximum exploration of overseas trade opportunities. As the Secretary of State set out in his recent speech, we should continue to use market mechanisms wherever we can to maintain this diversity of supply.

[Mr Dunne]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. However, can she reassure the House, and many of our constituents, that the move from the existing feed-in tariff to the smart export guarantee will not jeopardise the viability of solar energy anaerobic digester producers and that they will continue to be paid for exporting energy to the grid?

[Claire Perry]

My right hon. Friend is quite right. As I said earlier, we are very keen to ensure, through the smart export guarantee, that we move to the lower-subsidy or subsidy-free future that we know we can get to, but that we continue to see the sorts of viable projects that he references. I would urge him to make sure that the views of his constituents are reflected in the consultation that closes on 5 March.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Has the Minister had recent conversations with the power distribution networks? They are very powerful, they transmit all the electricity, and they are owned by very strange people, in my view. Warren Buffett owns all the power distribution in the north through Berkshire Hathaway. The Chinese own it all in London and the south-east through the Cheung Kong and Li Ka Shing enterprises. Are they efficient? Are they effective? Do they work in the national interest, or in somebody else’s national interest?

[Claire Perry]

The hon. Gentleman, I am sure, shares my view that we should have the most efficient and well-invested energy system going forward that keeps costs down for consumers. He will also know that since privatisation—[Interruption.] Well, if he wants an answer perhaps he could stop shouting at me and listen. We have seen a large reduction in power outages and an increase in energy security. We have to make sure that the system is fit for the future because, as he knows, much of what happens in the future will not be creation of energy on the old coalfield sites and distribution down the transmission lines—there will be far more decentralised energy, and we continue to look forward to that development. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

The capacity or otherwise of a particular Minister to speak fluent Chinese is, at best, a secondary consideration in respect of this question, I say to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), who is chuntering endlessly from a sedentary position.

[Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)]

I very much agree with diversity of energy supply, but will my right hon. Friend assure me that there will be no diminution in the controls over the fracking industry, which has agreed to the regulations and has to stand by them?

[Claire Perry]

I thank my right hon. Friend for asking a very topical question. The situation is this. We have set out very clearly our need to explore soberly and scientifically this potentially important resource. We rejected the companies’ request during the process of extraction from the first well to change the regime, on the basis that it was fit for purpose. I have been very well aware of all the scientific suggestions that somehow this regime should be reviewed. Of course, we now have an independent regulator, the Oil and Gas Authority, and it is within its remit, should it wish, to look at the science. For me, it is a scientist-led decision—it is nothing to do with politicians.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the Minister outline any recent findings regarding the harnessing of tidal power and any project the Department is pursuing or overseeing?

[Claire Perry]

The hon. Gentleman will know that we continue to look actively at this sector. Indeed, we have invested over £50 million in innovation in the sector over the past few years. However, it was right to reject the most expensive power station ever proposed in the form of the Swansea tidal lagoon. It is very pleasing to see that that project has now been brought forward in a form that does not require any Government subsidy. That is clearly a vote of confidence in this sector and this technology going forward. Our door is open for innovative proposals in this area. I was pleased, as I said, to meet the Marine Energy Council to see what more we can do.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

10. What comparative assessment he has made of trends in the level of spending on research and development in (a) the UK and (b) other EU member states.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Grogan (Keighley) (Lab)]

12. What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on support for economic development in Yorkshire.

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

I know that the hon. Gentleman is a proud Yorkshireman, and he will know that we frequently discuss the economic success story that is Yorkshire and the Humber. It may be a little bit politically incorrect, but I am sure he is proud of the fact that in the first three years of the Conservative Government from 2010, Yorkshire created more jobs than the whole of France.

[John Grogan]

But given that economic growth in Yorkshire and the Humber has on average been about 1% since 2010, compared with 3% in London, does the Minister see merit in the proposals and the economic case for One Yorkshire devolution that have been presented to Ministers? It is backed by 18 local authority leaders, many of them distinguished Conservatives.

[Claire Perry]

I know my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government is reviewing the proposals. I see in his place the Mayor of the Sheffield city region, the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), who is doing a fantastic job. I say to the hon. Member for Keighley (John Grogan) that in the places where large-scale mayoralties are working well, such as the west midlands with Andy Street or on Teesside with Mayor Houchen, a cross-party proposal has been brought forward, bottom up, for the Government then to make a decision on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Danielle Rowley (Midlothian) (Lab)]

T3. My constituents in Midlothian tell me how concerned they are about the catastrophic impacts that climate change will have, and indeed, is already having. What is the Secretary of State’s response to the long-term forecast by the Met Office showing that global warming could reach 1.5°, the limit aimed for in the Paris agreement, in just five years? Does he honestly believe that the Government are doing enough within their power to stop this?

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

I am very pleased to assure the hon. Lady that we are not only doing enough, but leading the developed world. Our renewables generation has increased fourfold since 2010. We have decarbonised our economy—as our four nations—more than any other country in the G20, and we were the first industrialised county to seriously look at that shocking Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report and ask our own independent Committee on Climate Change for its advice on how we can get to a net zero-carbon economy going forward.

[Will Quince (Colchester) (Con)]

T5.   It is concerning that the Department’s research has estimated that 54,000 women a year may lose their jobs due to pregnancy or maternity, and that one in nine women has said that they were fired or made redundant when they returned to work after having a child. What steps can my hon. Friend take to address this issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Heaton-Jones (North Devon) (Con)]

T9. In North Devon, we are passionate about doing our bit to tackle climate change. Will the Minister update me on where we are with reducing carbon emissions?

[Claire Perry]

With much pleasure. We published figures last week showing that we continue to reduce our emissions, which are down 3% year on year. I say again that we are decarbonising faster than any other country in the G20. We are doing our bit domestically as well as internationally with our £6 billion of climate spending, and we have formally put our name forward to host the crucial climate change talks in 2020, although we must remember that other countries are still interested.

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

T8.   Healthcare Environmental, based in Shotts, collapsed before Christmas, leaving 150 of my constituents and 450 across the UK redundant. We have managed to sort out redundancy payments for some of those eligible, but they have all lost out on their December pay. Can the Government do anything in a timeous fashion to help the workers get the wages they are due?

[Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con)]

My office has been meeting representatives of the Coal Authority to talk about geothermal opportunities in Clackmannanshire in my constituency. Will my right hon. Friend meet me to discuss these opportunities?

[Claire Perry]

My hon. Friend is a doughty campaigner for what could be a very valuable source of heat from flooded mine workings. It seems apposite to recognise the effort that went into digging them out, and it would be good to use them in our low-carbon future. As he knows, I continue to look at his ideas with great interest.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

Central to economic development in Yorkshire will be the design of the new UK shared prosperity fund. What work is the Secretary of State doing across Government to ensure that the fund works to the maximum benefit of the Yorkshire economy?

--- Later in debate ---

[Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)]

The mineworkers’ pension scheme has boosted Government coffers by billions while ex-miners and their widows receive an average pension of £80 a week. Will the Secretary of State meet miners’ representatives and the trustees of the scheme to hammer out a fairer pension deal?

[Claire Perry]

As the very proud daughter-in-law of a miner’s widow who benefits from the scheme, I take its stewardship very seriously. I believe that it will be debated in the House in a couple of days, and I should be delighted to discuss it further. I should point out that the extraordinary arrangements that were developed between the Government and the trustees have delivered much higher returns to the beneficiaries than similar schemes, but I continue to be happy to meet Members to discuss the issue.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Draft Ecodesign for Energy-Related Products and Energy Information (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Claire Perry Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2019 General Committees

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Ecodesign for Energy-Related Products and Energy Information (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley. The draft regulations were laid before the House on 19 December last year. I will set out the framework for why we are here, and then plunge into the detail of what we want to introduce.

Obviously, there is a strong belief across the House that a deal with the EU is in our mutual interest, but it has always been the case that a responsible Government must plan for all eventualities, including a very unwelcome no-deal outcome. The draft regulations will ensure that in such a scenario our eco-design and energy labelling legislation will continue to function effectively.

Committee members will be aware that in recent years the EU has introduced, through the eco-design directive and energy labelling regulation frameworks, a suite of product-specific regulations that have been of enormous benefit to consumers and businesses alike. They have worked to minimise the costs and environmental impacts of products used both in the home and in businesses by setting minimum performance requirements. They also help consumers, as anyone who has gone to buy a new appliance will know, to make informed purchasing decisions through universal energy labelling.

The suite of regulations is one of the reasons that bills have gone down since 2012, and will save household consumers about £100 on their annual energy bills by 2020. It will also lead us to save about 8 million tonnes of carbon dioxide in 2020. The policy has therefore been one of the most cost-effective ways of meeting our carbon budgets.

The policy has also served a very strong purpose for industry. It has allowed companies to set minimum performance requirements that have helped them to drive innovation and increase competitiveness, and to export to the world’s largest and most successful single market. It is therefore imperative that we can continue to deliver those benefits in the unwelcome event of a no-deal Brexit.

Using the power in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, the draft regulations will amend EU-retained law and ensure that eco-design and energy labelling requirements will be the same as they are now in any outcome. That will give businesses and consumers the certainty that they need.

There is a suite of amendments. The first is on a technical labelling term, and replaces “Union market” with “UK market”. Without that tiny amendment, less efficient and more polluting products could be put on the UK market, meaning that consumers who thought they were buying something energy efficient were not. That would be an unwelcome outcome.

The second amendment transfers powers held by the Commission to the Secretary of State—repatriating sovereignty—to introduce eco-design and energy labelling product-specific regulations for the UK market after exit. The Secretary of State would use that power in the event of no deal to lay before Parliament new energy labelling and eco-design product-specific regulations that the UK voted for and helped to shape as a member state. Because they will enter into force and apply after exit day, those regulations have not been saved in the UK statute book by the withdrawal Act. That is part of the reason for introducing today’s legislation.

One of the questions I have received is whether Brexit—whether orderly or disorderly—will mean the UK rowing back in any way on its climate change commitments, including commitments to transparent labelling and design. The answer is absolutely not. Not only will our existing eco-design and labelling requirements stay the same in the eventuality of our having to use the provisions in the draft regulations, but we have been very clear that we wish to be more ambitious than the EU in our climate change commitments, as we have been, and as we will continue to be regardless of the shape of our relationship after exit day.

The third aspect of the draft regulations is the EU product database. Suppliers placing products on the UK market have to enter product information into the EU product database—an online portal, which went live in January of this year, where all the market surveillance authorities can view product information uploaded by suppliers. If we have a no-deal Brexit, it will be replaced by a UK market surveillance authority that will request technical product information directly from the suppliers, as the authorities have historically done.

The next three amendments relate to changes that the Government are making to the trading of goods subject to EU-wide product-specific rules. They are not specific to this SI. The fourth amendment is the UK regime for third-party assessment. One of the changes pertains to the conformity assessment of goods to ensure they meet relevant requirements. After a no-deal exit we would have a UK-only system for conformity assessment. Products needing to be assessed by a third party in order to show compliance with UK legal requirements would be assessed by UK testing bodies called “approved bodies”. However, to minimise disruption and any burdensome red tape, businesses would be able to continue to use EU testing bodies when selling their goods to the EU after exit. That is intended to apply only for a time-limited period.

The fifth amendment is a new UK conformity-marking procedure. After exit, if we had no deal, a new UK marking would need to be affixed to products to indicate conformity with UK requirements. This would replace the CE marking that members of the Committee might be familiar with, which indicates conformity with EU requirements. Again, to ensure continuity and that manufacturers do not face a huge and unwelcome burden of regulation should we have no deal, in opposition to what they were promised, most manufacturers will be able to use the CE marking for the UK market, again for a time-limited period. The sixth amendment is a new UK regime of product testing standards. This SI carries across the current list of EU harmonised standards used for the verification of compliance of products with EU legal requirements, but renames them UK designated standards.

Finally—I am sure this will come as a welcome relief to the Committee—the regulations make tiny, minor changes to update our domestic energy labelling regulations to ensure market surveillance can carry out its enforcement activities on the labelling of household lamps and electric ovens. They are routine changes not related to Brexit. We felt it was a good use of the Committee’s time to debate that change along with the others.

These regulations are an appropriate and necessary use of the powers in the withdrawal Act and will maximise continuity in eco-design and energy labelling regulations should we have the unwelcome outcome of a no-deal Brexit. I commend them to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Claire Perry]

I wonder why, Mr Paisley. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his usual thoughtful and in-depth analysis and scrutiny. I will try to answer some of his questions and then explain why I cannot answer them all.

He asked a question that comes up reasonably frequently in these Committees: why are the Government using this form of legislation and not primary legislation? The response in this case, as in many of the others, is that the European Union (Withdrawal) Act is a wide-ranging Act that effectively allows us to transpose EU legislation, with tweaks, into UK statute. In this case, we are making technical fixes to retained law to ensure that the functioning statute book would work if we were to have a no-deal exit.

The hon. Gentleman raises valid points about the intent of policy and its design. There is no change in policy intent. If we were to go down that route and create a conforming or, in some cases, diverging, group of regulations, that would be subject to further primary legislation. However, I want to reassure the Committee that the instrument has been subjected to the usual detailed scrutiny provided by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Members of both those Committees deserve our thanks for what can be a thankless task. They are scrutinising well and passing things with, if you like, a bill of health. We are where we are with introducing legislation.

The hon. Gentleman asked an important question about time-limiting periods and about what happens immediately. We have always said that in the event of a no deal we will have a continuity principle, with no divergence on exit day between UK and EU requirements. That is in the best interests of business, and we are anxious to avoid any increase in red tape or any consumer confusion arising from the decision. There would be a continuity principle on day one and, as we set out in our technical notice on 13 September 2018, we would then allow a grace period in which products assessed by EU testing bodies, those bearing the CE mark and those meeting EU requirements could continue to circulate in the UK. If we were then to change that or to set a time-limited closure for those allowances, we would go through the usual process of consulting businesses heavily.

As I think the hon. Gentleman alluded to in his closing remarks, this matter has material consequences for other members of the EU, as well as for the UK. A disorderly, no-deal Brexit is not in the interests of any member of the EU, because the millions and millions of consumer goods items that are manufactured and imported into the UK would be subject to confusion and a loss of consumer confidence. That is why, when we talk about no deal, we must get the message out very clearly that it is a real problem for anyone hoping to export to one of the continent’s largest markets.

The hon. Gentleman rightly alluded to a related SI, the draft Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which are part of this suite of regulations. I can assure him that that SI was laid last week on 7 February, and I am sure he looks forward to debating it very shortly—I cannot wait. Essentially, if we were going down this route of being able to diverge, we would potentially have the opportunity to review our own testing and marking limits.

I believe in theory there is nothing to stop us adopting the CE mark through negotiation, if it was a trusted mark, assuming that we had agreement on what that meant in terms of testing standards, but those will be decisions that we will take in the interests of the UK, based on what works for our businesses and our public consumers. We would work to minimise disruption to ensure that those changes could be usefully made.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for allowing us to proceed with the regulations, which are an important part of our no-deal preparation. Of course, that brings home once again just what myriad tasks are involved in unpicking 40 years of close conformity; it is my strong belief that this would be a most undesirable outcome for the continent and for the UK, but any responsible Government must prepare for all eventualities. On that basis, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Draft Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Amendment and Power to Modify) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Claire Perry Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2019 General Committees

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Amendment and Power to Modify) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone.

I will first give the Committee a bit of background. As we approach EU exit, my Department is working extremely hard to ensure that our energy and climate change legislation continues to function effectively after exit day. The draft statutory instrument would be in place whether there was a deal or no deal. The best way to show its importance is to draw the Committee’s attention to paragraphs 2.3 and 2.4 of the explanatory memorandum. To save everyone the trouble of looking, they essentially say that we want the Government to have the option to deploy carbon capture, usage and storage—CCUS—at scale during the 2030s, subject to the usual caveats about cost. We need to ensure that the regulatory regime for the geological storage of CO₂ remains functional following our withdrawal from the EU. Without the statutory instrument, we would not have an adequately functioning licensing regime, as outlined in paragraphs 7.2 to 7.5 of the explanatory memorandum, and that would prevent projects in areas where the Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Licensing etc.) Regulations 2010 apply from proceeding.

There is now broad international consensus that CCUS is vital in helping to keep increases in temperature at or below 2°. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has set out many estimates that will help us with that, including the view that it could be up to 140% more expensive to meet the 2° target without CCS—an additional $12 trillion. In our clean growth strategy and last November’s CCUS action plan, we have set out a desire to rapidly progress CCUS and have a scaled deployment by the mid-2020s, with the option to deploy more extensively into the 2030s, but we must have a functional regime for the storage of CO₂ to ensure that the deployment is adequately met. It is of note that our aquifers, primarily those offshore, are considered to be among the most structurally sound and accessible for CO₂ storage in the world, so it is hugely important to get this right.

In 2009, the EU introduced the CCS directive, which established the first legal framework for the environmentally safe geological storage of CO₂. We implemented those requirements in the Energy Act 2008 and in subsequent regulations, and the draft SI will mean that that framework can continue to function when we leave the EU.

I will make three brief points about the details of the draft SI. First, it corrects references to the UK as a member state and removes obligations to consult with the European Commission, ensuring that we can continue to issue licences and permits as a sovereign nation. Secondly, it gives the Secretary of State a new power to update technical requirements relating to storage site characterisation and monitoring in the light of technological or scientific progress. The power can only be used to reflect such progress, but it is an equivalent power to that currently held under the CCS directive. Thirdly, the draft statutory instrument will ensure that there continue to be robust monitoring and safety standards for CO₂ stores, consistent with current legislation.

The draft SI applies amendments in respect of devolved matters to varying degrees, but the Committee will be pleased to know that we have sought and received formal consent from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to introduce the regulations. We have, of course, consulted extensively with the Oil and Gas Authority, as both our licence-granting and permitting body and our regulator.

The amendments in the draft regulations will have no adverse impacts on and place no additional burdens on existing CCUS projects, including Project Acorn, which we have been pleased to co-fund and which was recently awarded a CO₂ licence by the Oil and Gas Authority. The changes will ensure that the UK continues to have a robust, effective and safe regulatory regime for storing CO₂, which is a vital component of supporting the progress of CCUS in the UK.

I will not detain the Committee by talking about why CCUS is so important and why the UK is in the lead in advancing this technology, but it was striking at the excellent global conference that we co-organised with the International Energy Agency in Edinburgh last November that we had possibly the most senior array of CEOs, Energy Ministers and general commentators involved, who welcomed the fact that we were driving it forward.

To conclude, we are committed to supporting the development of CCUS, but to do that we must have a fully functioning regime for the safe and permanent storage of CO₂ in the UK when we exit the EU and become a sovereign nation. The amendments proposed in this SI provide for just that. I therefore commend the draft regulations to the Committee.

[Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I cannot resist commenting on the interesting circumstances: with the extension of SIs, we are going into different Committee Rooms, and I am used to having a rather closer relationship with the Opposition Front Bench than I have this afternoon.

[Claire Perry]

With the Government Front Bench.

[Dr Whitehead]

Sorry, with the Government Front Bench—the Minister usually has a closer relationship with the Opposition Front Bench. That does not mean, of course, that we shall be particularly far away from each other on the proposals in the SI this afternoon.

Essentially, the SI transposes three sets of regulations that underpin different aspects of the UK’s regime for carbon dioxide storage, including the regulations that should be adhered to, the circumstances of termination of licences that should be adhered to and the access for infrastructure. Those matters are contained in different sets of regulations, all of which stem from the EU carbon capture and storage directive. Obviously, in the event of a no-deal Brexit, we would not be a member state as defined by the directive. Therefore, it is necessary to secure the effect of those regulations without referring to our being a member state. As the Minister said, it is very important that we do maintain the effect of the regulations.

I would like the Minister to confirm that in her opinion—this is certainly my opinion—the changes made in today’s SI merely serve that purpose and do not do anything to the substance of those three SIs. My understanding is that their substance remains exactly as it was.

[Claire Perry]

I am very happy to clarify that the hon. Gentleman’s understanding is correct: this is simply a transposition exercise.

[Dr Whitehead]

I suppose that I could be a little curmudgeonly by saying that it would be rather nice if we had some carbon capture and storage to put into those regulations. We do not at the moment, so in a sense nothing will actually change with the regulations coming on stream, inasmuch as there is nothing that will be regulated or licensed, or indeed terminated, by the transposition of the regulations. I hear what the Minister says about the intentions for carbon capture and storage in the future. I hope that it will indeed proceed rapidly, after its previous setbacks, and that the regulations will be necessary sooner rather than later.

I do not have any particular cavils or quibbles with either the intention or the practice of what is being done today. Indeed, I very much support the idea that we must have a good, solid carbon dioxide storage licensing and regulation regime. That is what there has been previously and what there should be in the future. The draft regulations will ensure that that is the case, so I am very happy to inform the Committee not only that we do not wish to divide the Committee, but that we support these changes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Claire Perry]

I shall try to answer some of those questions. It is a delight that the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, who is always scrupulous in his scrutiny of every SI, can find no reason to detain or divide the Committee. It must be worth proceeding with this matter on a cross-party basis.

The hon. Gentleman, like the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun who represents the SNP, made a point about action. I think it is fair to say that we have accelerated our actions substantially in the past year in a way that does not overburden taxpayers or, indeed, consumers with extremely high costs for the deployment of the technology. In fact, we have tried to set out targeted amounts of funding. I announced £45 million of innovation funding at the conference in Edinburgh, and we have had high-quality bids to the extent that we are considering increasing that funding pool. We have been setting out clearly how we want to go forward and deploy at scale on an individual site basis. That has been the target of the £170 million of industrial decarbonisation money that we set out through the industrial strategy, which essentially requires CCUS to be fundamentally in that mix.

That has been the real acceleration. It is not just a matter of thinking about CCUS as part of the decarbonisation of power generation, because of course people say, “Well, just find more renewables.” It is about embedding it in the decarbonisation of industrial activity, which is so much more difficult to do. We look forward to seeing the bids that come forward for that funding.

It is also worth pointing out that there are only 22 at-scale CCS plants operating globally. Sixteen of them rely on the CO₂ that is extracted for enhanced oil recovery, which does not feel like a carbon reduction process to me. It is striking that very few Governments have been able to deploy it at scale, including our good friends in Norway, because it has been perceived to be too expensive and just about the decarbonisation of energy. However, I am struck by the quality of the projects we have coming forward, including Pale Blue Dot Energy’s Acorn project, which is starting to look at decarbonisation on a cluster basis.

Of course it is not just domestic action that we are taking forward. We are a lead partner in the Mission Innovation taskforce, which is looking at CCUS on a global scale, and we are the largest donor of overseas development assistance to global CCUS projects. We are trying to put our money where our mouth is and to focus on this technology.

The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun queried the deficiencies referred to in the explanatory memorandum, but they are not deficiencies in the current drafting of the law. The deficiencies will arise, for example, through the reference to the UK as a member state on our exit from the EU. The intention is that the existing regulations can continue to apply as intended. As the hon. Member for Southampton, Test said, the SI essentially transposes the existing regulations to allow us to maintain the relevant regulations on exit day.

Question put and agreed to.

Sustainable Seas

Claire Perry Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mary Creagh]

My hon. Friend the shadow Minister is absolutely right. We do have to put our own house in order. We know that most of the plastics enter the ocean from, I think, five rivers in Africa and Asia. There is no point in our carrying out heroic clean-up work here at home if we are then going to export the material to far-away countries such as Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand that do not have the right infrastructure in place and whose own populations are now rebelling against being consumed in a mountain of our contaminated plastics. We need to do more, and there is much more that we can do. The Government can start by carrying out better enforcement. There are some great waste exporters, but there are also some criminals in the waste sector. The Environment Agency carried out just three unannounced inspections in 2017. That is not enough. When we sent in the National Audit Office, it found that the audit systems and processes for waste export did not tally, so someone somewhere is playing the system, and we need to crack down on it here at home.

[The Minister for Energy and Clean Growth (Claire Perry)]

I do have a question, but, with your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to genuinely thank the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) and her Committee for once again producing what I really feel is an excellent piece of work. She has heard me speak before about the work that this Committee does in looking across Government and across boundaries. We saw it with the “Greening Finance” report, which had some superb recommendations around understanding risk from a regulatory perspective, particularly for pension regulators, and she will know that the Government have responded to that. I genuinely thank her and her Committee for their work. It is an extremely high-quality Committee, with some very talented and able colleagues and very good Committee staff.

It is ironic, is it not, that this House is almost empty, but that it was packed when we were debating the next three years in Europe? There are very few of us here today to understand what is happening to 70% of our planet. This report joins up the challenge of climate and environmental sustainability across land, sea, air, and, of course, the very important littoral zones. That is what we need to do and are doing, and this is a superb report.

The Government, of course, are listening. The hon. Lady will know that she has made a number of recommendations that are relevant to my Department, as well as to the Foreign Office and DEFRA. I am off after this to have a meeting with one of the DEFRA Ministers. The hon. Lady knows, I think, that she is pushing at an open door with this Government, and we will continue to do whatever we can to support these recommendations.

Finally, I do have a question for the hon. Lady. So much of what she says is relevant to both our overseas territories and our Commonwealth partners, which, in many cases, are small island states facing down a barrel of disruption—literally—from climate change and ocean pollution. Has she communicated the findings of this report to those countries and organisations? If not, how can we as a Government facilitate her in doing so?

[Mary Creagh]

I thank the Minister for her kind words and for her many appearances before our Committee, giving evidence on a variety of different subjects. I have also been neglectful in not thanking our brilliant Committee staff, who have worked so hard on the various Committee reports that we have produced, and on this one in particular.

The Minister is right; here we are in an almost empty Chamber, with people at home saying “Why is nobody talking about this?” Obviously Brexit it taking up so much time because it is urgent, but this is also urgent and important. We debated whether or not to launch the report on this date, but we decided that we needed to talk about the other important stuff as well as Brexit.

The Minister is also right that our Commonwealth territories are on the frontline of illegal activities, including illegal fishing, which is depleting their domestic, more sustainable fishing practices. They are at all sorts of risk, not least from the changes in weather systems that come from ocean warming, which made the hurricanes that sadly hit them last September much more powerful, slow-moving and damaging.

We have not communicated this report to anyone in the overseas territories, although the Committee has met representatives of some countries, including parliamentarians from Belize in October. Perhaps I could meet the Minister at the back of the Chair to discuss how we can get the report out to a much wider audience in the Commonwealth and overseas territories.