Independent Review: Armed Forces Homosexuality Ban

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they expect to publish the report of the independent review, chaired by Lord Etherton, into the impact on military veterans of the pre-2000 ban on homosexuality in the armed forces, along with their response to the report.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

The Government have today published the report of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and accepted in principle the vast majority of the recommendations. As the Defence Secretary set out, while we agree with the intent behind them, there are a number which we will deliver in a slightly different way from that described in the report. We will set out these differences when we publish the Government’s full response to the review after the Summer Recess. Earlier today in the other place, my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence apologised. Today in this House I repeat those apologies. From this Dispatch Box, I apologise on behalf of the Government and the Armed Forces, and I am profoundly sorry for all that our LGBT personnel suffered.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, is it not an interesting coincidence that this Question should come up on the very day that the Government finally published the excellent and long-awaited report of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton? Could it possibly be that my little Question, tabled a month ago, helped in some small way to end the delay in releasing this report—so meticulously prepared by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and delivered to the Government in May, bang on time—which had distressed many LGBT veterans? I hope that the Statement delivered in the Commons by the Secretary of State for Defence earlier today will be repeated in your Lordships’ House before the Recess. Finally, does not the full apology delivered by our Prime Minister today set the scene quite admirably for the substantial reparation that must be made to LGBT veterans who served their country with devotion, only to have their lives ruined because of their sexuality?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I much respect the views being expressed by my noble friend. An eminent theologian once said to me that anyone who believes in coincidences must lead a very boring life and I could never accuse my noble friend of that. He makes an important point. There was a desire to bring the report forward and to publish it and I absolutely accept that my noble friend’s Question has been most timely in respect of this Chamber. On the matter of further procedure within the Chamber, he will understand that that is for others—my noble friends the Leader and the Chief Whip, with their counterparts through the usual channels—to determine. However, I am confident that, as the Secretary of State indicated in the other place, this Chamber will want to debate this report and I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for a forensic and meticulously comprehensive report. It is a most informative, extremely disturbing and, at times, appallingly repugnant read. It has shone light where light needed to be shone—there is not a shadow of a doubt—and we are all indebted to the noble and learned Lord for his assiduous work and his contribution to this vital issue.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I too commend this report and congratulate the noble and learned Lord on what, as the Minister has said, is a deeply harrowing yet forensic report. I think it will put right the wrongs that have been done to LGBT service personnel across the generations. I pay tribute to Elaine Chambers and Robert Ely, who set up Rank Outsiders in the early 1990s, which campaigned to end the ban on gays serving in the military. Will the Minister consider setting up an active task force to ensure that the 49 recommendations across government departments are brought forward, not least on service records, pensions and compensation? Further delay will only cause deeper tragedy.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks, and I think there was a lot of sympathy across the Chamber with what he said. I would observe that, as the Secretary of State was explicit about today in the other place, we are going to look comprehensively at the recommendations but we need to do that in conjunction with organisations such as that to which the noble Lord referred; and I pay tribute to them. They were indeed the founders of the pressure to ensure that at some point this was all laid open, exposed and examined and they deserve credit for their persistence. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State said in the other place that we will work extensively over the summer in consultation with all those who have an interest in this. We want to get it right and ensure that the recommendations so appropriately articulated by the noble and learned Lord get due consideration and we all understand what the consequences are and what the best route for delivery may be. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State said we accept the spirit of the recommendations and I repeat that in this Chamber.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, speaking in the other place, the Secretary of State assumed that Members would have had a chance to read the testimonials. Unless people have done a speed-reading course, I suspect that so far we have not been able to do that. The Secretary of State also said that the Government have implemented six of the 49 recommendations already, without stipulating what they were, other than the apology. Can the Minister elaborate? Can she say also whether there will be an apology to the families of those LGBT veterans who are no longer with us but whose lives were blighted by the ban and whose families were therefore affected?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I can say to the noble Baroness that already we have taken proactive measures such as implementing various inclusive policies—that was important —including the provision of pre-exposure HIV prophylaxis. We have introduced a guide for parents of LGBT children and LGBT+ allies training. We have several thriving LGBT+ staff networks and a LGBT+ community which regularly parades in Fighting with Pride marches and does so with pride. I had the privilege of meeting them at a reception last year and my right honourable friend the Minister for Defence, People, Veterans and Service Families was with them this year. In addition, we have today launched an “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” GOV.UK page, which is now live and available for anyone who was impacted by the policy to explore the support, services and restorative measures available to veterans. The recommendations also specifically provided for apologies, which we acknowledge as being absolutely necessary. In relation to the successors and relatives of those who have died, I think the apologies of the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence were all-encompassing. The Prime Minister’s was on behalf of the British state to all affected.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that my noble and learned friend’s report should be seen as a paradigm across other sectors in both the public sector and the private sector; for example, in banking, where there is still discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, often fairly covert?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord. I think “paradigm” is a very appropriate noun to attribute to the noble and learned Lord’s report. I am disturbed to hear that there are other areas and sectors where such behaviour is lurking. My advice to anybody in those sectors is to call it out, expose it, shine a light on it and make sure that the miscreants, transgressors and culprits are all put into public view and dealt with appropriately.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on his Question and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, on his report, which I have managed to look at. I am sorry that I have not yet read it. It was good to hear the Minister’s apology on behalf of the nation, as well as the apologies of the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary. I think all of us would wish to join in that apology. It is important for us in the remarks that we make today to pay tribute to those who have had the bravery to come forward and share their testimonies with us. For those who have not read the report, it is horrific, with unscientific methods of investigation into individuals, prejudice, discrimination, bullying and harassment, and Armed Forces personnel having their medals, which were often given for gallantry, taken away. It is an appalling saga, and let us hope that the recommendations are implemented quickly and that we can move forward out of this horror and ensure that in today’s Armed Forces none of that prejudice exists.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I associate myself with everything the noble Lord has said. I was struck by part of the narrative. At page 53 of the report, the noble and learned Lord wrote:

“In broad terms, the responses to the Call for Evidence paint a vivid picture of overt homophobia at all levels of the armed forces during the period 1967 to 2000 and of the bullying that inevitably reflected it”.


The noble Lord is correct that some of the testimonies are absolutely nauseating and reveal treatment and behaviour that are beyond belief. The noble Lord is absolutely correct that to have the courage to come forward—it is obvious from the report how many people did come forward—was an extraordinary commitment and demonstration of bravery, and I cannot congratulate, commend or thank them too much because without their evidence, despite all the best efforts of the noble and learned Lord, this report would perhaps lack the impact and the undeniable punch which it has had.

Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees Bill

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 14th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, it is a privilege to speak to the Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees’—VAPCs’—Private Member’s Bill. I thank my noble friend Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton for bringing the Bill to the House and for his comprehensive exposition of the historic background to the committees. I take this opportunity to thank the committees themselves for their invaluable support to our Armed Forces community, and thank the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Brixton and Lord Tunnicliffe, for their contributions today.

My noble friend outlined the decision in his tabled amendment, brought forward in this House in November 2021, when I pledged that the MoD would look again at the role of the VAPCs. The Bill is the result of my noble friend’s endeavours and that commitment. It further contributes to the Government’s vision to make the UK the best place that we can make it to be a veteran. The MoD has explored ways to place the VAPCs on a stable, statutory footing to reflect the fact that, in recent years, they have taken on broader, non-statutory roles in raising awareness of MoD and wider veterans’ welfare initiatives of potential interest to all veterans and their families.

The VAPCs are currently in an unsustainable position. At the heart of the Bill is the gap that my noble friend rightly identified during the passage of the Armed Forces Act in 2021; it highlighted the committees’ vulnerability to being constrained in their capacity to act as collective due to their current statutory basis. It is vital that we bring the VAPCs into the 21st century and move them on to a clear and robust footing. By moving the existing statutory framework from the Social Security Act 1989 to the Armed Forces Act 2006, we will provide a more suitable home for the VAPCs and ensure sufficient statutory backing for the unstinting support they provide for our veterans and their families.

I have two points in response to my noble friend. First, the terms of reference, set in November 2021, provided the VAPCs with a non-statutory framework to cohere and guide their activities at a local level. Setting the VAPCs a clearer and wider-ranging role, as requested by them, assisted both the MoD and the Office for Veterans’ Affairs to better understand a future role that could align with the changing veterans’ welfare support landscape. The VAPCs’ evidence provided against this framework was presented in two reports that formed the basis of further detailed discussions between my right honourable friends the Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families and the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, their senior officials and the VAPCs.

These discussions identified the types of functions that the Bill may support, although this list is by no means exhaustive. It includes, for example, VAPCs exploring key priorities, set annually by Ministers, through engagement with their local and regional veteran-support networks; supporting the MoD by acting as a conduit for regional consultation on MoD veterans’ services, assisting the MoD to understand similarities and differences between areas; and the provision of an annual evidence-based report to Ministers, reflecting the collective view of all VAPC regions and the key findings in response to the priorities set.

The second is to clarify the MoD’s intention to use the power in the Bill to bring the VAPCs’ statutory functions more in line with their current non-statutory functions, and to maintain this alignment as the activities of the VAPCs may change over time. The MoD has been careful to ensure that any proposed extension to the scope of the delegated power by moving it to the Armed Forces Act 2006 is similar to the existing power in Section 25 of the Social Security Act 1989 and is limited to what is only necessary to achieve its policy outcomes in relation to MoD functions and services.

With the developments and changes that have been brought about in veterans’ support in the last number of years, it is considered important to take a fresh look at the current support systems in place for veterans. As my noble friend outlined, the recommendations from the independent review of the VAPCs, which concluded and reported to Ministers in March this year, will be considered in parallel with the current independent review of UK Government welfare services for veterans, which is due to report this summer. This review focuses on examining the effectiveness and efficiency of the range of UK Government-provided welfare services for veterans, and it identifies any duplication or gaps in support. The VAPCs are a key part of this review—and I hope that some of this will reassure the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, who particularly raised the important matter of post-traumatic stress disorder.

Any review recommendations or areas of concern raised in relation to VAPCs can be addressed as and when they arise through the powers in the Bill, which allow the Government to create regulations through delegated legislation. These regulations can range from membership and the appointment of committees and their members to the way in which the committees are to perform their functions, enabling the VAPCs to successfully adapt to address the changing needs of the veteran community and veterans’ families over time.

I make it clear that this independent review of UK Government welfare services will provide an opportunity for areas of concern to emerge before any regulations are developed. This review will enable the MoD to clarify the purpose of the VAPCs within the veterans’ ecosystem to, first, better align the committees’ work to the range of support services and the needs of the veterans’ community and, secondly, enhance the quality of the services that veterans and the Armed Forces community are offered. I suggest that this is a pragmatic way to proceed. By retaining the flexible nature of the legislation, the Government hope to establish a more stable foundation for the VAPCs, while avoiding any unnecessary administrative burden.

Specifically on the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, on the serious and identified condition of post-traumatic stress disorder, we already have a range of support services within the MoD. Part of that is provided through Defence Medical Services and part of it is provided through a combination of the MoD and the Office for Veterans’ Affairs directing people to where they may go for help. I remind the noble Lord of the important change that we introduced in the Armed Forces Act 2021, when we created the covenant duty of due regard, which applies throughout the United Kingdom, to all providers of health, education and housing. There is also an extensive range of support services within the providers, and the MoD can work in conjunction with them. I hope that there is a measure of comfort and support for those who are unfortunate enough to experience this serious condition. But there is no doubt that, as I outlined, the Bill will give the VAPCs an important new locus to look at all these issues. They will liaise with veterans’ charities and the MoD and, with their new statutory basis, they will be able to give Ministers a direct report of any issues that they identify as emerging, current or suggesting that there may be a gap in provision.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, raised veterans’ families and correctly said that being in the services is a way of life—and I entirely agree with that. That is partly why the covenant exists and why we felt it necessary to introduce a further duty of due regard in the Armed Forces Act 2021. He is correct that the transition to civilian life will be straightforward for a number of Armed Forces personnel but that it will not be for others. The MoD is cognisant of that, and we already have a lot of preparatory measures in place to assist veterans who have decided that they will retire from the Armed Forces, to help them to prepare for that transition. I offer to write to the noble Lord with details, because he might be unaware of the extensive range of support that is produced and available to service personnel as they approach that very important period in their lives.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, referred to the continuous attitude survey results. The MoD is absolutely up front about that. We look at those results closely and will of course take it very seriously if we identify anything emerging that is disturbing. As I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, although I hate the platitude “another tool in the box”, I feel that the Bill is another raft of identification, protection and support by which those of us who are trying to provide help—whether it is the MoD, other agencies, charities, government departments or bodies such as the NHS—will be better able to understand whether there are gaps, whether the help is reaching our veterans and whether we need to do more to support them in their civilian lives.

While I cannot speculate on the outcome of the current review’s recommendations, they will form the basis on which the delegated legislation for the VAPCs can be drafted, ensuring that their support to veterans reflects the on-the-ground reality of the important work they do for the veterans communities across the UK. I have endeavoured to illustrate, in summary, some of what is currently happening.

The priority for today is to ensure that this Private Member’s Bill, which addresses the important issue of support for our veterans and their families, receives a smooth passage through the House. I conclude by thanking once again my noble friend Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton for his committed work and persistence in ensuring the passage of the Armed Forces Act in 2021, which I was privy to and through which I was able to understand where his concerns lay. That has made it possible to develop this Bill, which I wholeheartedly support and commend to the House.

Wagner Group

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask His Majesty’s Government in which African countries they assess the Wagner Group to be operating.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK has repeatedly highlighted the Kremlin’s malign and destabilising activities in Africa. These include the Wagner Group’s ongoing military deployments in Mali, the Central African Republic and Libya, with multiple reports of its abuses of human rights and international humanitarian law. The Wagner Group and its owner, Yevgeny Prigozhin, also spread Russian disinformation and are engaged in transnational crime while seeking to exploit Africa’s mineral resources, including in Sudan. We will continue to work with our regional and international partners to constrain and counter such harmful activities.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer. There is no doubt that the Wagner Group is state funded and is a proxy of the Russian Government. It has been very useful to Putin in the past for plausible deniability of his grey-zone operations. However, as the Minister said, it may have been guilty of murder, torture, rape and robbery, stealing from and plundering the natural resources of the countries in which it is based. It relies on dirty money and is involved in money laundering. It has set up a network of companies and is causing instability in all these regions. It is highly dangerous and although there have been minor sanctions—for example, against Prigozhin in 2016 and 2022—we do not seem to have done enough. Given that the Wagner Group is so malign, and given the damage it is causing, can we get alongside our Five Eyes allies and the EU in order to have a huge impact on these people, because there is no doubt that they are reeling as a result of the events over the past couple of weeks?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

There is not much that I could disagree with there. For the second week running —this is all getting very alarming—I am in concurrence with the noble Lord. He is absolutely right: the Wagner Group is a repugnant and discredited organisation. There has been a systematic programme of sanctions. I remind your Lordships that, as the noble Lord indicated, Yevgeny Prigozhin was himself sanctioned through the Libya sanctions regime, while in February 2022 the Wagner Group was sanctioned because of its activity in Ukraine. We have also sanctioned key Wagner commanders in Syria, as well as several key individuals assisting its activity in Ukraine. We constantly review the sanctions regime. The UK has persistently called out this activity internationally and is seeking to work with partners and allies, including the EU, on how we can best counter it.

It may be important to note that it is a demonstrable indication of Putin’s policy on Africa that he relies on an organisation such as Wagner, which seems to be indicative of real weakness.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, the Wagner Group does indeed have a horrendous reputation for severe human rights abuses, as we have just heard, and it often defends ruling elites in return for securing valuable mineral rights. My noble friend Lord Purvis has been calling for proscription for some time. Given the group’s role in regional conflict and organised crime, surely the case for proscription is now more pressing than ever.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, it is not government policy to comment on whether a group is under consideration for proscription, and, indeed, it is a Home Office responsibility. I would observe that proscription in its own right is perhaps less effective because of the particular environment in which it applies. Hitting wallets with sanctions is what really cuts the legs off at the knees, and that is what we are trying to do in conjunction with global partners.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that although all eyes are understandably on Ukraine and Moscow regarding the Wagner Group, the noble Lord, Lord West, is right to raise the activities of the Russian militias and the Chinese right across the Sahel and throughout the whole of Africa? Will she therefore ensure that her colleagues and policymakers are really focused on this other war, as eyes tend to drift away to Ukrainian affairs, and make sure that we make every effort to reinforce security against the authoritarian regimes, which in many areas are winning? This is of particular note since 21 of the African countries being invaded by the Chinese are Commonwealth members.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My noble friend makes a very important point. He will be aware that through the United Nations and our other relationships and partnerships, whether multilaterally or bilaterally, we are very cognisant of that threat. He is correct that Wagner is a pernicious and unwelcome presence in Africa, and absolutely right that there are other influences at play.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness recall that in our defence debate just two weeks ago, on 30 June, I did not ask her about the mutually exclusive options of sanctions versus proscription but called specifically for proscription of Wagner? In considering that, what assessment has she made of the role Wagner is reported to have played in supplying missiles and arms to General Hamdan and the Rapid Support Forces, which have unleashed such violence and unspeakable atrocities in Khartoum and Darfur, and the role Sudan’s gold is playing in funding Russian and Wagner aggression in Syria, Ukraine and Sudan itself?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord raises wide-ranging issues and has written to me on them; I have still to respond, which I undertake to do. I shall do that in greater detail than I can perhaps do at the Dispatch Box, but I agree that the evils he identifies are undeniably present, so the question for the UK Government is how we can best counter them. As I indicated to the noble Baroness, we do that in a variety of ways, and do it best in global concert with our allies and partners, but we are unrelenting in our focus on the problem.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, may I just pick up that last point concerning Syria? Reports are saying that Assad and Russian commanders are extremely concerned about the Wagner troops there because of the possible mutiny. What assessment has the department made of the situation in Syria? How has it impacted on government-controlled areas and wars, and what impact have the Russian commanders had in taking over these troops and making them more officially a state operation?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord is correct. We are aware that Wagner mercenaries are in Syria supporting the Assad regime, just as they are in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. What the future is for them following their insurrection and near coup is, at the moment, somewhat unclear. We are very clear that Wagner is essentially a malign organisation, and that is why we are doing everything within our power as the United Kingdom Government to monitor its activities and to deploy whatever remedies we have available to us to curtail and constrain its behaviour.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned the Central African Republic and obviously, the Wagner Group has been working very closely with CAR President Touadéra. There are examples of war crimes being committed in the CAR and in Mali, Sudan, Burkina Faso and Madagascar. Surely, it is vital that the UK use its influence in the UN to make sure that these war criminals are brought before the ICC. We have influence in the ICC, and surely these people should be brought before it at some stage.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I think there will be a lot of sympathy with my noble friend’s point. The UK continues to highlight Wagner’s reprehensible actions. We do that around the world in whatever fora we can find, and we are not without allies and support in pursing the objective of constraining Wagner. My noble friend makes an important point, and I will certainly relay it to my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and undertake to try to give my noble friend Lord Bellingham a fuller response.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, there are consistent reports that Wagner has been making profits from gold mining, diamonds and other minerals in Africa and that it is profiting through exporting them via the Gulf states. Have we had conversations with the Governments of the UAE and the other Gulf states about this trade? It is evading sanctions and is clearly immiserating the countries from which it is stealing these things. This is clearly a problem also in terms of Russian sanctions.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

We are aware that Wagner has historically drawn its funding from three main sources: direct payments from the Russian Government, as President Putin has publicly admitted since the insurrection; cash payments from Governments, regimes or organisations employing Wagner, as in Libya; and natural resource concessions. We also know that Prigozhin has sought to evade sanctions through front and shell companies, both in and outside Russia. The noble Lord makes an interesting point to which I do not have a detailed response, but I shall make inquiries and respond to him if I can.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that while the existence of mercenary groups such as the French Foreign Legion—which was involved, along with other countries in the West, in expanding into Africa and creating colonies and wealth—was acceptable in the 19th and 20th centuries, it is totally unacceptable in the more moral climate of the 21st century?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I have always been clear in my remarks from the Dispatch Box how much the Government find Wagner to be a repugnant, discredited organisation, and how much we deplore attempts to interfere in sovereign states’ political systems and Wagner’s attempt to exploit these countries. That is why we are doing everything we can to play our part in calling it to account and constraining what it does.

Nuclear Submarines: AUKUS

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Walney]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to ensure the United Kingdom meets the increased demands to produce nuclear submarines entailed by the AUKUS agreement with the United States of America and Australia.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK is stepping up to meet the opportunities of the AUKUS nuclear submarine agreement, a multidecade undertaking that will create thousands of jobs. We are investing an extra £3 billion over the next two years in our defence nuclear enterprise, including support for AUKUS. Rolls-Royce plans to almost double the size of its Derby site, creating 1,170 skilled roles and demonstrating our commitment to the expertise embodied in British industry.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. I should add that my declared interest for the Purpose Coalition includes advising Rolls-Royce on how to meet that production challenge. AUKUS is great news for our global security and for the UK submarine industry, but does the Minister accept that it requires a step-change in Whitehall departments working together on a genuine national endeavour, which has long been promised but has not been delivered across Whitehall?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for the role he is playing and wish him well in his advisory capacity to Rolls-Royce. This is a very important project. It is probably one of the most important we have entered into in the post-Second World War period. He is absolutely correct that there is a need for cross-government co-operation and consultation. That is happening. As he is also aware, one of the big challenges is in relation to skills. We are very cognisant of that, and activity is under way to try to increase nuclear sector engagement with young people and attract talent from a more diverse background.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that increasing the number of submarines armed with nuclear weapons invites less responsible countries, like Russia and China, to do the same? This increases the possibility of their accidental or malevolent use, leading to horrendous suffering.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I can simply clarify to the Chamber that the AUKUS programme’s SSN-AUKUS submarines are nuclear-propelled, not nuclear-armed.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, the first AUKUS pillar 2 autonomous weapons and artificial intelligence trial took place in April. On 27 June, the White House Indo-Pacific co-ordinator, Kurt Campbell, said that there would be co-operation with all three countries on artificial intelligence and quantum computing, and that other allies and partners would be invited to join this development. That is quite a significant development, although not unexpected, given the elements of AUKUS. Is there any possibility that we will get a ministerial Statement on this matter?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

What I can confirm to the noble Lord is what is already in the public domain. We have always said that, as progress is made with the three countries on pillar 2—which is distinct from the original pillar, which is trilateral—other critical defence capabilities will then seek opportunities to engage allies and close partners. As the noble Lord correctly indicated, the trial held in April was most encouraging, and a two-minute video was released by all three nations. We have to take one step at a time.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, while AUKUS is clearly very important, Europe and our neighbourhood remain the closest security partners and allies for the United Kingdom. Could the Minister confirm that working with AUKUS will not reduce our commitment to our neighbourhood? At the same time, if there will be increased skills and work for developing the nuclear-propelled submarines, could some of that expertise be used to ensure that the development of other equipment, under the MoD’s auspices, is fit for purpose the first time round?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

On the first point, it has always been acknowledged that, although AUKUS is intended to do two things—to augment our Indo-Pacific tilt and to provide us with our new class of AUKUS submarines and succession to Astute—it will also enable the UK and its partners to develop capabilities that will, for example, not only reinforce NATO but help the states in the Indo-Pacific bolster their own security. On the noble Baroness’s latter point, we already have a huge base of skills in the UK, as I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Walney. That, quite simply, is why AUKUS is a trilateral agreement with the United States, the UK and Australia. We are building on that; we are not complacent. We need to expand that skills base. I agree with the noble Baroness that, once we do that, we will see a fanning out of other benefits to the broader defence enterprise.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, for the aspirations set out in my noble friend Lord Walney’s Question to be achieved, we need to ensure that the United Kingdom provides the capital impetus for us to participate fully in the construction and development of the submarines. Will the Minister tell us what steps are being taken by His Majesty’s Government to ensure that the United Kingdom is a full participant in the construction programme?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I respond to the noble Lord by reminding the Chamber that, in March this year, the Prime Minister announced that we are investing an extra £3 billion over the next two years in our defence nuclear enterprise to support AUKUS and other areas. Other financial contributions will be coming from Australia; for example, at the Rolls-Royce base in Derby plans are under way for a significant expansion of its Raynesway nuclear reactor manufacturing site. That will create 1,170 skilled jobs. We expect this tandem of co-operation to produce not only a contribution to the project itself but a financial contribution to the endeavour.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the AUKUS programme is extremely good news; it is very good news for the UK and for stability. Looking to the future, does the Minister agree that this will allow us, in the longer term, to increase the number of SSNs we have—because we have too few—and that that will be good for the north Atlantic and the Arctic as well as the Far East? They can move from one place to the other in a matter of three or four weeks, so does she agree that this is a potential for the future?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

It give me great pleasure to agree with the noble Lord—it is refreshing and, I hope, a recurring experience. The noble Lord makes a very good point. As he is aware, we currently have Vanguard that will translate into Dreadnought in due course. On the Astute class, the final two submarines are still being built: boat six, “Agamemnon”, and boat seven, “Agincourt”. They will make an important contribution, but as we move on to the Astute class, the noble Lord is correct. We are aware of diverging maritime challenges, not least in the high north and the Arctic. The MoD is cognisant of that. I referred to the fact that we have published our Arctic strategy to his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, on Friday.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, His Majesty’s Opposition Front Bench fully supports the AUKUS programme. As the noble Lord, Lord West, has pointed out, it will make a huge contribution to global security in the decades to come. Returning to the point a number of noble Lords have mentioned, there are already thousands of unfilled vacancies in skilled engineering in our defence industries. There will need to be a step change with respect to skills if we are to fully utilise all the opportunities that are available under the AUKUS scheme. The Minister mentioned some of the initiatives the Government are bringing forward, but I ask her—as a matter of urgency—to look at whether that needs refreshing. So far, all our efforts in that have not delivered the results we want.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I can share with the noble Lord that additional apprenticeship and graduate bursary schemes have been implemented across the enterprise, and significant further increases are planned to build the capabilities to increase the cohort of apprentices and new graduate opportunities by 2029-30. Importantly—and it refers to the point the noble Lord, Lord Walney, was making—the MoD, the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero and employers in the nuclear circuit are all working together as part of the Nuclear Skills Strategy Group to address common challenges. The noble Lord is correct to allude to the challenge: it is there but we are not complacent about it, and we have a number of initiatives designed to try to address it.

[Lord Peach (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that moving from the step change we have all agreed this afternoon will require an integrated approach? That will then leave the question of command and control. Who will lead on AUKUS for the whole of the Government to make sure that, end to end, we deliver this important programme?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I hope I can reassure the noble and gallant Lord that the Cabinet Secretary has asked the MoD’s Permanent Secretary, David Williams, to be the UK’s AUKUS principal. That is a very significant position. He will have overall responsibility for the programme in the UK with support from the Director General Nuclear, the Deputy Chief of Defence staff, military capability and senior civil servants from a number of relevant departments from across Whitehall. He will be at the very top of the chain, the essential co-ordinating presence.

Defence Policy (International Relations and Defence Committee Report)

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Friday 30th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to speak in the House when we debate such a thorough, well-informed report as this one from the International Relations and Defence Committee. It is a privilege to follow such knowledgeable and distinguished contributors. Debates in this House are always immeasurably enhanced by the breadth of experience of those who have been not just Ministers in the midst of some of our nation’s greatest challenges but diplomats in the world’s great capital cities and military commanders in the most hazardous of conditions. I thank all those who have participated; I extend a special note of gratitude to my noble friend Lady Anelay of St Johns and her committee for their diligence and acuity in producing such an interesting report.

I think I had better deal with the elephant in the room, which was referred to by all your Lordships: the disquiet about a perceived inadequacy of opportunity to debate these issues in this Chamber. All I can observe is that I recall having the pleasure of a full debate in which I and my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon participated. If I recall correctly, he opened the debate and I wound it up, although it may have been the other way around; in any case, I remember that we both thought it a very fertile debate. I observe to your Lordships that there are usual channels, which can heavily influence calls for debates on issues of interest or concern to the House. Parties can table their own debates. Both in the other place and in this Chamber, Ministers have consistently been called to account by numerous Chamber appearance. For my own part, these have tended to be responding to either Statements, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, observed, or Oral Questions, which may be topical or Urgent Questions. These have a particularly abrasive character in terms of the Minister’s anxiety about being able to respond accurately and fully; they are representative of a fluid character of business whereby such questions can address topicality and currency. Ministers can then assist, perhaps, in giving the most up-to-date presentation of information and engagement possible. I will take noble Lords’ comments back to my noble friends the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip.

Before I respond to many of the excellent points that we have heard today, it is worth reflecting once more on the context that frames our discussions. Inevitably, with the conflict in Ukraine, this debate takes place in an all-encompassing environment of threat; hence my presence at the Dispatch Box today as an MoD Minister.

The underlying assumptions of our integrated review back in 2021 proved correct; it established Russia as our most acute threat and showed that our decision to train Ukrainians back in 2015 was prescient. However, it would also be true to say that a degree of cognitive dissonance prevailed. For all of Putin’s belligerence, we still hoped against hope that the Russian threat would not materialise and that the pace of competition outlined in IR21 would not accelerate.

Putin’s decision to send tanks into Ukraine last February sent shockwaves around the world. We understood immediately that this was more than an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. It was an assault on the established open international order, an affront to human rights and a taunt to the West. Putin believed that he could simply roll over Ukraine and the West would not act.

In the event, Putin could not have been more wrong. The Ukrainians have shown extraordinary, superhuman levels of courage, and the international community, barring the usual suspects, has displayed remarkable unanimity. The UK, alongside our great US friends, has displayed exemplary leadership, galvanising the global response, providing lethal and non-lethal aid, training more than 17,700 new Ukrainian recruits alongside our partner nations since last June, and ensuring that international donations keep rolling in. I thank my noble friend Lady Anelay and the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, for recognising that response.

However, there is no disguising that the world as we knew it has mutated. The last vestiges of Cold War optimism have dissipated in a fuselage of missiles and brutality. In this new age, where uncertainty lurks around every corner, we cannot afford any misjudgments, because the threat is multiplying.

As Prigozhin’s attempted coup last week reminded us, the situation is febrile. Already, the ramifications of Russia’s illegal invasion have spread far beyond the borders of Ukraine. Russia is co-operating with Iran and North Korea. It has a no-limits partnership with China, which is itself increasingly assertive and poses an enduring and epoch-defining challenge. Russia’s actions have triggered an energy crisis, a food crisis, and a cost of living crisis. All the while, extremist actors continue to agitate across the world and, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, correctly said, climate change exacerbates instability.

Our integrated review refresh, which was published subsequent to the committee’s report earlier this year and aligned with many of the report’s recommendations, was a response to this perfect storm. Work to update the integrated review was under way the moment Russian boots stepped across the border. Defence fully endorses the conclusions of the integrated review refresh. The Government’s most urgent foreign policy priority is to address the Russian threat to European security. We are working with allies across the world to impose our toughest-ever sanctions regime to provide huge quantities of military aid and rebuild our stockpiles and munitions.

We must maintain this momentum. Putin is convinced that the West does not have the stomach for this fight. We must show him he is wrong, which is why we are doubling down on our support for Ukraine; we have already committed a further £2.3 billion in the next financial year.

The MoD also has a much wider role to play in delivering each of the critical pillars of the strategic review refresh. I remind your Lordships that this is about shaping the international framework, generating strategic advantage, addressing vulnerabilities, and ensuring that we can deter, defend and compete across all domains. That is why we are refreshing our 2021 Defence Command Paper. I can inform your Lordships that this has been an intensive process. It has been under way for several months. It has involved extensive consultation with academia, industry and think tanks. The paper is still under wraps but its general conclusions, which I break no confidences in summarising, will come as no surprise to perspicacious colleagues; indeed, some of your Lordships may very well have helped to shape them.

The Command Paper will enshrine Defence’s mission to protect the nation and help it prosper. Having contributed to the paper myself, I would like to highlight three themes in particular: readiness, resilience and relationships. All the contributions have touched on these in some respect. My noble friend Lady Anelay referred to readiness, as did the noble Lord, Lord Collins, who shrewdly identified that you cannot leave readiness in a silo. It is inevitably caught up with resilience and the need for agility, pace and response.

To head off danger at the pass, Defence will need to operate more persistently and proactively across the globe. Greater readiness will in turn demand greater integration across Whitehall and across all the domains: not just land, sea and air, but space and cyber. Our object is not simply to enhance our deterrence and situation awareness but to enable faster decision-making and leverage our diplomatic and economic muscle as well as military might. Indeed, we are currently creating a digital ecosystem to rapidly assimilate and harness the data we receive from a myriad of sensors across multiple domains. Your Lordships may think that “digital ecosystems” sounds like trendy jargon, but in a nutshell it is about making data and information the drivers of decision-making.

That brings me to resilience, because our forthcoming Command Paper will underscore the need for greater resilience. To operate effectively in a more contested world, we must change the way the MoD functions. Our structures, processes and ways of working must accelerate efficiency, efficacy and delivered effect, to give us an edge. We expect ever more from our people, by which I mean our whole force of regulars and reservists, uniformed and civilians, government and industry, apprentices and contractors; veterans also play a role. We have to look after them and help develop their skills and maximise their potential.

My noble friend Lady Anelay and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, also raised the role of industry in relation to resilience. The conflict in Ukraine has exposed the vulnerabilities of a completely globalised free market. It has underlined the importance of stockpiles of munitions and other essential capability, and has shown us the need to shore up our supply chains. That is why we are now looking at how to de-risk our industries so that we are less reliant on others to provide us with critical minerals and semiconductors. I reassure your Lordships that significant orders have now been placed for replenishment.

That brings me to relationships. The third principle of our Defence Command Paper will relate to being international by design. Only by deepening friendships and weaving together a tapestry of partners and allies can we collectively secure our populations and interests. We have seen the value of international unity in Ukraine, an effort that has proven more enduring and robust than many, not least Putin, predicted.

My noble friend Lady Anelay, along with my noble friend Lord Cormack and others, raised the matter of the EU. I can perhaps offer a reassuring counterbalance here. There is no doubt that during the anguish of the Brexit process, relations with the EU were difficult and fractious, but I detect a dramatic improvement. Even at the most difficult time of tensions, within the MoD, we had constructive cordial relationships with professionals and counterparts in other EU countries. That was very important. Post Brexit, I am delighted to say that there is now a new warmth in relationships. There was reference to PESCO; I can add to that that there are very strong bilateral relationships on defence between the UK and EU countries.

I had the privilege of attending the EI2 defence group of countries. What is interesting is that 10 of these are EU members and two are not; one is the UK and the other is Norway. I cannot overstate to your Lordships the warmth of the reception that I received, the interest in what the UK was doing and the desire to engage and share experiences and knowledge.

We have also rediscovered, because of the conflict in Ukraine, the value of decisive leadership. Whenever one nation has put its head above the parapet, others have followed. That aggregate effect is having a huge impact. We have watched NATO come into its own: more united, more resilient and, with the accession of Finland and eventually Sweden, stronger than ever before. Not one Russian boot has entered NATO territory.

Our adversaries act globally. They act from the Indo-Pacific to west Africa, as has been indicated, and from Latin America to the high north, as was also mentioned. We have to compete globally too. In relation to the Indo-Pacific, which a number of noble Lords raised, perhaps with an air of concern, the Prime Minister said recently that Atlantic and Pacific security was indivisible. He was absolutely correct, for a variety of reasons, so it has been encouraging to see nations outside of NATO drawing the same conclusions and uniting to defend the international order.

There is another important strand to relationships: how we optimise our HM Government strengths. From my engagement with other countries on defence matters, one example is a seamless tandem between our diplomatic presence and in-country defence attachés. I cannot overestimate or overdescribe the importance of that relationship because, where their activity is mutually comprehensive, the aggregate effect is potent; it really packs a punch. The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, spoke very powerfully on that issue and I would seek to reassure him on that.

A Command Paper will chart defence’s course in the decades ahead. There will remain many issues to be worked through. Noble Lords have identified a number of those challenges today and I will try to address them in the time available. I am probably not going to manage it, in which case I will offer to write.

A number of noble Lords, not least my noble friend Lady Anelay, asked whether we would update the defence and security industrial strategy, the DSIS. It has been reviewed, alongside the IR and DCPR. We will outline further how the Government will deliver that defence, security and industrial strategy.

On defence procurement, I was speaking to a lunch yesterday of stellar presences—or was it the day before?—from the worlds of defence and diplomatic activity. Unsurprisingly, some of your Lordships were there. A diplomat said to me that MoD procurement had not been a series of unmitigated triumphs. I said to him that that was the best diplomatic-speak I had heard in a long time—because it has not been.

We have learned painful lessons, for a variety of reasons. We have been exposed to scrutiny by the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee. We have been exposed to—unwelcome at times—media investigation. We have certainly been exposed to parliamentary scrutiny. All of that has had a galvanizing effect. There is a seismic change in defence, and I will describe some of that in a moment.

On the very interesting point of how we deal, not so much with the primes but with the small or medium-sized enterprises, I am pleased to say that I was having a discussion about this with our director of general industry, trade and economic security in defence, a marvellous woman, Avril Jolliffe. She is absolutely on the ball on this. We see opportunities where we think we can do more on that front and hopefully provide greater encouragement to these smaller presences.

Specifically on the Ajax contract, the Sheldon review was a very helpful commentary on what had been happening. We have already introduced a number of significant changes within the Army. There will be an additional £70 million over 10 years to resource Army programmes and an increased number of senior responsible owners to match its portfolio. Importantly, senior responsible owners are now going to have to spend at least 50% of their time dedicated to the programme. There was an unwelcome churn on previous programme procurements, and it was not healthy. The Army currently has half of its SROs working 100% on its programmes, and that includes the SRO for the armoured cavalry programme that is delivering Ajax.

So I hope I can reassure noble Lords that big changes have taken place. There is also a recognition of the crucial importance of effective sustainment of operations, highlighting the need for sufficient stockpiles and munitions. That is being underpinned by a resilient economic and industrial base at home.

A number of noble Lords raised matters in the Middle East and China. The Middle East is critical to Euro-Atlantic security and prosperity. We recognise that significance and we maintain an enduring presence in the Gulf. We have strong relationships with each of the six countries in the Gulf Cooperation Council. The MoD has been playing its role in supporting that, as your Lordships will be aware, with the presence of naval assets.

The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, raised the matter of the Arctic and the high north. It is significant, as new routes are opening up with climate change. The MoD has now published its Arctic strategy. I commend it to the noble Lord; I think it makes for interesting reading.

A number of your Lordships, including my noble friend Lord Howell, the noble Baronesses, Lady Falkner of Margravine and Lady Smith of Newnham, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised very important points on China. The IR23 refresh identifies the character of the threat posed by China. That is why we will pursue a policy through three interrelated strands, which runs through the IR23 framework. We will protect the UK and align and deepen our co-operation and increase alignment with our core allies and a broader group of partners, but we will also engage directly with China bilaterally and in international fora to preserve and create space for open, constructive, predictable and stable relations that reflect China’s importance in world affairs. To reassure your Lordships, the Government are backing this; there will be double funding—£3.2 million over the next two years—to build China capabilities across government so that we better understand the country. That will enable us to engage confidently when it is in our interest to do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and my noble friend Lady Helic spoke eloquently and with great knowledge about the western Balkans. My noble friend raised significant issues and rightly identified inherent and potential threats. She makes a powerful point about prevention; the strategy of the UK and our partners and allies, not least in NATO, is to keep that objective at the forefront of our thinking. The MoD is actively supporting countries in the western Balkans to make progress towards democratic values and greater integration through building resilience in their defence and security institutions. There is a persistent FCDO engagement. Very recently, my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, the FCDO Minister in the Lords, and I were discussing what we might do to assist the UK endeavour. On Bosnia and EUFOR, we recognise the importance of the EUFOR peace stabilisation mission in Bosnia-Herzegovina. We will explore how we can best support that initiative.

A number of your Lordships, including the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, raised issues around the Indo-Pacific. I have indicated how our MoD attitude to the Indo-Pacific is strategically robust and inherent within our attitude to the broader security of the United Kingdom. Noble Lords will be aware that there has been consistent activity out in that region. That is a good combination and a demonstration of soft and hard power where we have assets. I have been out in that region visiting various countries in south-east Asia; the amalgam of the diplomatic presence and the defence attaché presence has absolutely opened doors I would not otherwise ever have got through. There is very useful activity going on there.

The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, raised scholarships for Caribbean servicepeople at the Royal Military Academy and at Dartmouth. I will write to the noble Lord on that issue.

Along with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, raised Wagner, which is a repugnant entity. I believe that sanctions have been imposed on some identified personnel. We have to approach its activity, particularly in Africa, with a mixture of diplomatic and MoD activity in conjunction with partners. We are very clear about the need to ensure that Wagner’s sphere of influence is limited because it is a pernicious presence.

[Lord Boateng (Lab)]

Can I press the Minister a bit on that? Wagner is in Burkina Faso and it threatens Ghana. It threatens the whole of that region. Have we increased our military attaché presence in west Africa in order to counter it? Frankly, if we have not, then we are whistling in the wind in terms of any hope of addressing the threat that it represents.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I do not have an answer to the specific question about the number of defence attachés we have there, but I will make the inquiry and undertake to write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to Wagner, and the interventions by the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, and myself. I specifically asked why we have failed to proscribe Wagner. When she comes to write on these issues and other questions that have been asked—she said she would reply to them all in writing if they have not been answered on the Floor of the House—will she particularly address that question?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Strictly, this is not a matter for the MoD, as the noble Lord will be aware; it is, essentially, a matter for the Cabinet Office. These matters are not discussed; that is for another forum of discussion. I had a look at some organisations that have been proscribed, and I was not entirely clear what the benefit was. Yes, you nail them as people to have nothing to do with, but, actually, the more effective undermining of their position is to try to get at their financial wallets with sanctions. But I cannot give any advance on the Government’s positions already articulated.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

My Lords, I do not want to detain the House, but this is a profoundly important point. For nearly a year now, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, has been asking this question from the Lib Dem Benches of any Minister who will listen. All I say, respectfully, to the Minister is that she speaks for the whole of the Government, not just the Ministry of Defence, of course.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Yes, and I cannot add to the position I articulated. I have no further position to share with the House.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, raised some interesting points about shipbuilding. I remind him that, for the first time in 30 years, two UK shipyards are building two types of frigate—that is something to fly the flag about. In the refreshed national shipbuilding strategy, we set out the shipbuilding pipeline.

The noble Lord made an important point about our people, and he is absolutely correct: they are our most vital asset. We support them, and we shall respond to the Haythornthwaite review and, imminently, to the independent pay review board’s recommendations. I undertake to make further inquiries about his comment on the “zig-zag” career process and see whether I can obtain further information for him.

I am conscious of time, but I realise that what noble Lords want is to talk about this, to hold the Government to account and to hear from them, so, with noble Lords’ indulgence, I will keep going until I reach the end of my notes. My noble friend Lord Howell made a number of important and perceptive points, but I slightly disagree with him in one area. He said that the IR and the Defence Command Paper were in silos, but I do not see that; in this hybrid world of global threat, I see a very fast-changing and fluid set of imperatives, and it is about how we try to harness these in some strategic sense and then bring some intelligent specifics about how we will deal with them.

I agreed with my noble friend’s point about the Commonwealth, for which there is an important role. That is always worth exploring, and I would not disagree with that at all. I dealt with the position on China, but I was struck by my noble friend’s phrase about putting “autocracies on the defensive”. I have a lot of sympathy with doing that, and I share his analysis of these concerns. But I hope that the imminent Defence Command Paper refresh will reassure my noble friend that this is an active matter under current consideration.

The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, raised Russia, China and the new world order, which are important points. That is why the integrated review refresh is shaped as it is and why the Defence Command Paper refresh will be shaped as I have indicated in general terms.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury—informally, he is my noble friend—raised important issues about the Army and, in particular, our NATO obligations. We will have a combined Army strength, regular and reserve, of over 100,000. It is important to put that in the context of what we are now dealing with. If we have learned anything from Ukraine, we have learned that, although land conflict might look unchanged in some respects, it is absolutely transformed in other respects because of how warfare is now conducted, with the deployment of various aspects of information technology and artificial intelligence.

I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that the UK contributes to every NATO mission. We did so in Iraq, in Kosovo and in the Med with Operation Sea Guardian, and the UK is making a very ambitious offer of forces to NATO’s force model. Our approach to the NATO force model has been “NATO by default and national by exception”, which means that almost all our forces across all domains will be made available to support NATO tasking and the deterrence and defence of the Euro-Atlantic. For 2024-25, we will transition from the Very High Readiness Joint Task Force to the inaugural allied land reaction force. We already contribute heavily to NATO deterrence activity.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, also raised climate change, which is very dear to my heart. It might interest your Lordships—it may sound improbable, but it is absolutely the case—that within the MoD we have a director for climate change and sustainability. There is a Minister responsible for pursuing our policy in that sphere—me. I take a keen interest in what is going on and have been utterly bowled over by the innovation within our single services in devising how they adapt to climate change and, with their own ingenuity, make their contribution to reducing our emissions. We have had some extraordinary innovatory activity by the RAF, which leads the field in sustainable aviation fuel. It is incredible. I have been speaking to some think tanks in the RAF—geniuses at work in basements—and even if only one of their plans comes to fruition, it will be a major contribution.

I commend to your Lordships a wonderful magazine called Sanctuary. It is an MoD product, produced once a year; it looks great and it reads like a treat. I am sure the House of Lords Library will give your Lordships a copy to look at and I guarantee that it will cheer you up.

I apologise for running over time, but I detect that noble Lords genuinely want to hear about this. Work to resolve the issues that have been identified is either happening or currently under way. A number of noble Lords mentioned defence spending. The Defence Equipment Plan is public and lays out an exciting combination of spend and equipment, whether that is UK shipyards, Lossiemouth as a showcase for RAF potent power or an Army equipment plan of £41 billion over the next 10 years. I go back to something that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton of Richmond, said in the Chamber just last week. He very astutely pointed out that we need to get away from becoming fixating on a single force or a particular part of a capability. The trick now is to know how we amalgamate this holistically, to deliver the capability effect that we need to address threat.

Noble Lords are aware of the financial settlements that have been available in the last few years for defence. The Prime Minister has pledged, when economic circumstances improve, to raise our defence spending to 2.5% of GDP. I reassure the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, that this is a welcome boost in very difficult economic circumstances. Times are challenging but I think noble Lords can expect to see us accelerating our modernisation and mobilisation plans, investing in critical partnerships such as AUKUS and GCAP, the global combat air programme, restocking our munitions and upgrading our digital infrastructure.

The Command Paper is currently at write-round for clearance with other National Security Council members and will be published in the coming weeks. I think its recognition and release will bring with it a new reality. When Putin’s troops crossed the Dnieper at the start of 2022, they also crossed the Rubicon, because we now live in a completely transformed world. We cannot go back. We have to adapt rapidly and enhance our readiness. We must strengthen our resilience and reinforce our relationships to secure the peace and prosperity that our country and our allies deserve.

I say to those who might have been tempted to adopt a slightly depressive note that I regard it as a privilege to be a Minister in defence. I see at first hand uniformed and civilian staff of stellar calibre delivering every day on our UK strategic objectives, focused and with an effectiveness and professionalism that is second to none. It is a department that is dynamic in character, pulsating with energy and proud, with state-of-the-art equipment and underpinned by funding, to do the vital job we ask of it.

I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, for specifically seeking that out, commenting on it and paying their tribute to our Armed Forces, because I am very proud of all the people who contribute to our defence capability. I pay tribute to them and, on behalf of us all, I say to them: thank you.

Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2023

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Goldie]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 22 May be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 15 June.

Motion agreed.

Defence: Support Ships and Type 32 Frigates

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they expect to place orders for (1) multi-role support ships, and (2) Type 32 frigates.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the multi-role support ship—MRSS—and the Type 32 programmes remain in the concept phase and have not yet reached the level of maturity for me to confirm when orders are expected to be placed. The programme and procurement strategy for MRSS and Type 32 will be decided following the concept phase.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, as I stand here today, our great maritime nation has 11 operational destroyers and frigates. Why are we in this parlous state? The reason is that, for many years, up until fairly recently, we have not been ordering ships on a rolling basis. This is absolutely necessary for a proper shipbuilding industry. Indeed, the Government recognise that now and, within the MoD, Ministers understand the need for a rolling programme. We have had some recent orders, but they have stopped. We must keep ordering, otherwise we will have the same problem again. The Treasury does not seem to understand that, if we do not do that, the SMEs and all our trained people will go to the wall, we will not have a proper shipbuilding industry and we will not have a proper fleet. Could the Minister please go to the Treasury, point out the error of its ways, and explain how important it is for us to go down this route?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I do not impugn the noble Lord’s right to hold the Government to account but I would not wish his persistent interrogation and commentary to imply that our Royal Navy is in some dysfunctional state. The Royal Navy was one of the few navies in the world to have ships in every ocean on the planet in 2022, from the High North to the Antarctic, and from the Baltic to the Pacific. It continues to deliver its commitments by undertaking the biggest recapitalisation of the fleet in a generation, from Type 23 to 26 and 31, and from Vanguard to Dreadnought. It is worthwhile reminding your Lordships that our Royal Navy is one of only three navies in the world to be able to operate to fifth-generation carriers and aircraft, along with the United States and China. The Royal Navy is our British pride and joy. I wish that sometimes the noble Lord, Lord West, would acknowledge that, instead of repeatedly and monotonously talking down his former service. It is time to champion it.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I do not wish to talk down His Majesty’s Royal Navy. However, like the noble Lord, Lord West, I am keen to ensure not only that we have an effective rolling programme but that our ships should be buoyant and seaworthy, ideally as soon as the trials are over. With regard to moving from the concept phase for the Type 32s, can the Minister tell the House what lessons His Majesty’s Government have learned from procuring the Type 45s and the “Queen Elizabeth” class so that, when the next ships go into service, they will be seaworthy from day one?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Again, to disabuse anyone of any misconception of the noble Baroness’s question, we have a functional, operational Royal Navy which is discharging its obligations to the country. As regards the more recent types of shipbuilding commissioning by the Royal Navy, such as the Type 26 and Type 31, part of their attraction is their design concept, which means that they are more readily produced, and they have an exportable value, and that means that the sorts of problems to which the noble Baroness refers, which certainly characterise some previous ships, are now much less likely to materialise. What I described to the Chamber with regard to what the Royal Navy is currently undertaking demonstrates beyond a shred of a doubt that it is highly professional, very well-equipped and functional.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, is it not customary, in the year which sees the Coronation of a new monarch, for the Royal Navy to be reviewed by the new monarch? Will His Majesty review the fleet in the course of the current year?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

That is a matter for the palace. However, I am sure that if His Majesty were to review the fleet, it would be very positively received.

[Lord Mountevans (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has made some excellent points in defence of our wonderful Royal Navy. However, the impressive response of Ukraine in the current conflict demonstrates the rapidly changing nature of warfare and the growing importance of agility and flexibility. The Royal Navy is working hard to maximise these latest technologies, including AI. Does the Minister agree that the Type 32 frigate addresses all those developing priorities?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The Type 32 is conceived as an agile, resilient and capable ship. However, I point out to the noble Lord that we have already, for example, upgraded Type 45s with the Sea Viper Evolution programme and upgraded Type 23s with the Naval Strike Missile in partnership with the Norwegians—the first ship will be ready by the end of the year. In addition, the initial Sonar Type 2150 ships have already been upgraded. We are constantly reviewing how we can keep our fleet swift, agile and effective.

[The Lord Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich]

My Lords, given that one of the intentions and evident benefits of a national shipbuilding programme is local economic benefit, including the levelling-up aims of investing in young people and retraining older workers, and that shipyards are, by and large, in areas of deprivation where such benefit is vital, will His Majesty’s Government ensure that current capacity and design skills, apprenticeship training and other essential infrastructure is maintained pending the commitment to the Type 32 frigates and MRSS programmes so that it does not cost a great deal more to initiate these vital programmes?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for making a number of extremely important points. The whole essence of the national shipbuilding strategy was to ensure that we got shipbuilding in the United Kingdom on to a more stable and sustainable basis. The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right: the MoD’s direct spend supports 29,800 jobs in the shipbuilding industry—that includes submarines—with a further 21,300 jobs supported indirectly. There is an opportunity for shipbuilding in the UK to deliver exactly the sort of benefits to which the right reverend Prelate refers.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Can the Minister explain how asking questions, however persistently, about providing the Royal Navy with the equipment that it needs is somehow talking it down?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

If the noble Lord had listened to my preface in response to the noble Lord, Lord West, he would have heard me say that I do not impugn the right of the noble Lord, Lord West, to hold the Government to account. However, I think the Chamber would agree that there is a certain predictability to the character of the noble Lord’s questions; I know from first-hand experience the volume of questions with which I have to deal. I am not impugning his right to hold the Government to account but to do so repetitively, without ever counterbalancing the argument by acknowledging some of the Royal Navy’s enormous triumphs, gives a slightly disproportionate and not totally representative picture.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, how many qualified crews do we have to support our destroyers and frigates? Have any been deployed in recent days in search for the missing mini-submarine near the “Titanic”?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I have no information on my noble friend’s latter point. I can seek specific information about the crew numbers to which he refers and will write to him.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the Type 32 frigate was announced on 19 November 2020. I understand that, to make the national shipbuilding strategy work, the first ship needs to be laid down by mid-2027. After two years and seven months, the project is still in the pre-concept stage. I think that means, in plain English, that we do not even know what these ships are for. Can the Minister enlighten the House, or will the project slip, so plunging the British shipbuilding industry into chaos once again?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I have already indicated to the House that this ship is in the concept phase; there is no more that I can add to that. The programme and procurement strategy will be decided following the current concept phase, once that has concluded. However, I would observe that this is part of a shipbuilding programme for the Royal Navy that is substantial, significant and very important for the Navy’s future operational effectiveness.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)]

My Lords, on this particular argument I find myself more in favour of the Minister’s point, inasmuch as the lineage of these questions, although entertaining, occasionally gives the impression that the sole purpose of the defence budget is the maritime renaissance. Increasingly, the issue of military advantage will be born not of hardware but of software. Can the Minister confirm that it is this strategic shift, and not necessarily by accounting for military competence and capability in the counting of input numbers, that is the qualitative output of a sophisticated and technologically equipped Armed Forces—the point of the Minister’s expression of frustration—and a more balanced approach to the investment necessary?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble and gallant Lord. He makes the point more eloquently and with greater authority than I can. I do not seek to pre-empt the defence Command Paper refresh, which is imminently in the stages of becoming public, but the hybrid nature of our capability will be obvious from that paper. The noble and gallant Lord is quite correct: we cannot put things in silos. We have to work out what we are trying to deal with, what the threat is, what the hybrid character of the threat is and how we can have a capability—whether by land, air or sea—that will effectively combine to address that threat.

Armed Forces Act 2006 (Continuation) Order 2023

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Thursday 15th June 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Goldie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Armed Forces Act 2006 (Continuation) Order 2023.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, for those of us who have served as deck hands on the good ship HMS “Defence” for some time, this continuation order will have a certain familiar resonance, but formalities must prevail.

The purpose of the order is to continue in force the legislation governing the Armed Forces, the Armed Forces Act 2006, for a further period of one year until December 2024. Our annual consideration of the legislation governing the Armed Forces, the 2006 Act, reflects the constitutional requirement under the Bill of Rights that the Armed Forces may not be maintained without the consent of this Parliament. So, while this is a routine item of parliamentary business, it is also one that must be done.

I remind your Lordships that there is a five-yearly renewal by Act of Parliament, which is the primary purpose of the Armed Forces Act. As noble Lords will recall, the most recent was in 2021, and another will be required before the end of 2026. Between each five-yearly Act, annual renewal is by Order in Council, such as the one before us today.

If the Order in Council is not made by the end of 14 December 2023, the Armed Forces Act 2006 will automatically expire, in effect ending the powers and provisions to maintain our Armed Forces as disciplined bodies. As your Lordships will understand, this would have real consequences, as servicepersons have no contract of employment and thereby no duty as employees; instead, they owe a duty of allegiance to His Majesty and an obligation to obey lawful commands. This duty is enforced through the 2006 Act, which contains the provisions for the maintenance of the Armed Forces, including the systems of command, justice and discipline. If the order were not to be renewed, while servicepersons will continue to owe a duty to His Majesty, Parliament will have removed the power of enforcement—that 2006 Act. Consequently, this will leave courts martial and commanding officers powerless to punish transgressors for criminal conduct or disciplinary matters.

Therefore, the continuation of this Act is essential for the maintenance of discipline wheresoever in the world servicepersons do serve—that sounds straight out of the 17th century, I have to say.

Importantly, the act of renewal also presents Parliament with an opportunity to reflect on and pay gratitude to those who protect us and defend our country’s interest in a very uncertain world—a world which will see the Defence Command Paper refresh tackle the issue of how the UK’s Armed Forces will keep pace with, and be able to counter, the evolving threats in the international environment, while building on the original work of earlier Command Papers.

It is vital that our Armed Forces maintain a state of readiness to work with and support our NATO allies and partners to combat today’s—and tomorrow’s—threats, wherever they arise, as exemplified by the professionalism of our service personnel in their unstinting efforts, for example, to instruct and train thousands of Ukrainian men and women in our combined arms approach to warfare, which may prove pivotal to the outcome of the ongoing counter-offensive.

At present, the stakes could not be higher, with the very fabric and stability of the rules-based international system under threat from rogue actors with delusions of imperial irredentism, threatening to abandon law and diplomacy in favour of a “might is right” attitude. That is why we in the United Kingdom, along with our Armed Forces, stand shoulder to shoulder with our Ukrainian partners, providing them with much-needed assistance in the form of kit, equipment, training and funding.

I also salute the courageous and unstinting efforts that saw the UK complete the largest and longest evacuation by any western country during the recent emergency operation in Sudan, where thousands of people were successfully and safely airlifted out of that troubled country.

That warmth of sentiment towards our brave service people reflects this Government’s drive to do more for those who protect us. That is why the Ministry of Defence is currently considering the comprehensive report by the independent Haythornthwaite review, which has looked in depth at what more we can do to incentivise and retain our service personnel, in a way that better balances the entirety of the package we offer them in return for their service. This report will provide an invaluable guide to developing a holistic strategy for defence, enabling it to recruit, incentivise and retain people with the skills that we will need over the coming decades. Importantly, the measures stemming from the review will help to ensure that defence keeps pace with the ever-changing ways of modern working and living. For noble Lords’ information, the report has been submitted to my right honourable friend in the other place, the Secretary of State for Defence, who will respond in due course to its invaluable contents.

Lastly, our consent for the order is an opportunity for us all to acknowledge the debt that we owe to those who serve us so bravely and professionally. I hope that noble Lords will support and approve this draft continuation order, which will provide the sound legal basis for our Armed Forces to continue to protect us. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I wish I had taken the trouble to count the number of times I have done this order.

I welcome the opportunity today to speak for the Opposition on this instrument. It is important not because it has any significant policy or legislative impact but because it provides this House with an opportunity to further demonstrate its support for our Armed Forces by providing a continuance to the system of command, discipline and justice to which they operate.

However, it is of course important, because without the continuation of the 2006 Act, in January we would have a military with no legal requirement to follow orders and implement other disciplinary and criminal procedures. This is something that we have repeated annually since the 1689 Bill of Rights, one of the foundational pieces of our constitutional jigsaw. Given the formality of repeating something for hundreds of years, it is important to re-emphasise, as we have rightly done many times recently, the pride we share in our military, which embodies the very best of Britain. This has been demonstrated particularly in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, throughout Covid, and continually for a long time before. Those who serve in our Armed Forces spread and share the finest of our values across the globe, putting themselves in harm’s way to guarantee the safety of us, our friends and our families, and they are an essential part of our national defence, resilience, and obligations under NATO to our allies.

That is why it is disappointing that, in the Defence Secretary’s own words, our forces, for which we have so much responsibility, have been “hollowed out and underfunded”. The fact that this instrument is focused on the disciplinary system of the Armed Forces and that it is that which must be renewed annually implicitly makes the point that it is people, whether those in uniform or the civilians who support their work, and not just equipment, weapons, vehicles and ammunition, who make up the bedrock of our Armed Forces.

Yet just a few weeks ago, the very same Defence Secretary who said that the Armed Forces had been hollowed out confirmed that the Government were continuing with their plans to shrink troop numbers to an all-time low, in his words to “shield them from further reductions”. I cannot say that I understand the logic there, but I have heard the views of wise and vastly experienced military leaders who fear the impact of these cuts.

Over the past year and a half especially, our Armed Forces have done a tremendous job. I will even acknowledge the defence leadership shown by the Government since Russia invaded Ukraine. However, I also hope that the Government go away and reflect on these decisions so that, alongside the provisions maintained by this instrument, their capacity to continue operating at such a high level also remains year after year.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for the brevity of their remarks, as I think the prevailing temperature in the Moses Room is not designed to afford maximum comfort to its occupants. I am very grateful to both noble Lords for their thoughtfulness. I also very much appreciate their tributes to our Armed Forces. As I have said before in the Chamber, a lot of what we say and do in this Parliament resonates far beyond it, including to an audience of our Armed Forces. It is very important for them to know that there is absolute unanimity in Parliament on our regard and respect for them, our desire to do our best for them and our undoubted gratitude to them for the tremendous contribution they make to our country—not just in keeping us safe and the wider obligations we require of them, but in the incredible contribution they have made to civilian life in MACA, which has been prominent in recent times, as your Lordships will be aware.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised the important issue of recruitment and retention and asked the pertinent question of whether we serve our Armed Forces well. The answer is that we try; we certainly hope that we do, but that is where parliamentary scrutiny and the call for accountability of the Government by opposition parliamentarians is so important. I refer again to the Haythornthwaite review, which was designed to look at the current offer to our people. The offer has many positive financial and non-financial elements—there is no doubt about it—and our Armed Forces acknowledge that, but it needs to be modernised to reflect how we will ask them to operate in future against the changing threats we face, as set out in the integrated review and the integrated operating concept.

We need a modernised offer to allow our Armed Forces to better harness valuable skills, whether that is regular or reserve. We need to improve recruitment and retention and to be consistent with family life and people’s changing expectations of work in the 21st century. The Haythornthwaite review will be a very important contributor to that thought and decision-making process; it will be a signpost as to how we take things forward. As I said earlier, the review has concluded and the report is with the Secretary of State. He will determine the Government’s response in due course, but there will be a desire to place it in the public domain.

Both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord asked, “Do we have enough of them?” The noble Lord referred to the acceptance of having hollowed out, over decades, our land capability in particular. I say in response that, in the combination of the Integrated Review Refresh 2023 and the defence Command Paper refresh—which is very much a live and vibrant document, requiring constant ministerial involvement, and expected to become public in early course—we have the whole question of what we are trying to plan for. What is the threat? Where is it? What is its character and how do we formulate our Armed Forces to be in a position to respond to it? In this challenging day and age, with a maelstrom of activity, the hybrid character of threat and the opportunity for new technology, we will need to make some important decisions about how we marry all that in an intelligible fashion to ensure that we have the capability we need to deal with the hybrid character of the threat as it now exists.

I cannot be drawn much further on the detail of that; suffice it to say that I give your Lordships my assurance that the MoD is very cognisant of the need to be able to demonstrate—not just for the satisfaction of opposition politicians but, very importantly, to potential adversaries—that we have a serious, workable, effective capability.

The noble Baroness asked whether I could give a little more information on the covenant. She is absolutely correct: this arose when we were looking at the Armed Forces Bill in 2021. Helpfully, that Act extended the reach of the covenant to providers of housing, education and health services across the United Kingdom. The question arose of whether it should extend to central government and the devolved Administrations. I say to both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that we provided an update in The Armed Forces Covenant and Veterans Annual Report 2022 in December last year, outlining the scope and methodology for conducting the review. The Government will report on the results of this review in the 2023 covenant and veterans annual report, when we will provide more information.

I think I have dealt with the specific points raised. I thank noble Lords for their contributions and I commend this instrument to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Ukraine: Ministry of Defence Strategy

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Thursday 15th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is participating virtually.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK Government are dedicated to supporting Ukraine in the face of Russia’s illegal invasion. A key element of our response is being agile in our support as the conflict changes, and strands of work are constantly assessed to deliver this goal. Working closely with international allies and partners, and via our major contribution to the international donor co-ordination centre, we continue to enable and adapt support from across the world to meet Ukraine’s current and future requirements.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, some colleagues will be aware of my personal reservations about the war, but I now have to accept it: I too have to move on. Is not the simple truth that you cannot keep 140 million Russian citizens in information lockdown founded on a policy of brutality? The resistance to Russia’s approach to this war has to come from within Russia. That should now be the central focus of our strategy. Should we not be concentrating our resources on an information war and not just on a battlefield victory in which we are quasi-participants? A strategy based on war alone is destroying infrastructure, leading to mass population movement and destabilising the world economy.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I commend the noble Lord on his change of position; many people will identify and sympathise with his stance. If I may seek to reassure him, it has been the UK Government’s very clear position in relation to trying to bring this war to an end that only by going into peace negotiations from a position of military, economic and diplomatic strength will Ukraine secure a strong, just and lasting sustainable peace. Sadly, we are not there yet. I seek to reassure him that within the MoD, through various channels, ambitious and very effective attempts have been made to disseminate information within Russia, with evidence that this information is being increasingly received and taken up. He makes the important point that a powerful and cogent persuader in relation to President Putin will come from within Russia, when his country realises that this is a disastrous enterprise that it has embarked upon.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, in any review of strategy will my noble friend and the whole Government bear in mind very carefully the role of China in this situation? China is of course a country that supports Russia, and we all know that Putin very badly needs its support, but the Chinese are absolutely determined to oppose his possible use of nuclear weapons, which he keeps threatening. Is this not a key factor in calling Putin’s bluff, and should it not encourage us to press on and give Ukraine every weapon it needs, including aircraft cover, to gain the upper hand as soon as possible?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I express complete agreement with the last point made by my noble friend. Yes, I agree with his proposition. We welcome China’s engagement with President Zelensky. We expect China, as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, to stand up for the United Nations charter and for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. We hope China will use its influence with President Putin to persuade Russia to cease its attacks, withdraw its troops and hopefully bring an end to the war.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, made an important point in stressing information warfare, but he applied it rather too narrowly. Does the Minister agree that this information warfare needs to go far beyond the Russian population to other areas of the world that have been less than supportive of the campaign in Ukraine, particularly in what is perhaps inaccurately referred to as the global South, and that we need to do much better in this regard?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I think the House will concur with the principle of the noble and gallant Lord’s proposition. I can tell him that through diplomatic channels and, where we can, through MoD conduits, we make known to other powers that have been somewhat passive in their comments on this barbaric and illegal war that a more proactive response is necessary, that this is wrong and that history has shown us repeatedly that you do not achieve peace by pandering to a bully. People have to be prepared to stand up, call that out and act accordingly.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, following the question from the noble and gallant Lord and the Minister’s response, is there not a question of going beyond talking to elites and people at summit meetings, and actually reaching out to wider communities? It is actually the hearts and minds of citizens across the world that we need to get to. If we want India and China to be working on the same side and opposing this war, we need the ordinary citizens to get that message.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Yes, and I think there will be almost unanimity in response to the noble Baroness’s point. The challenge is finding a mechanism through which to disseminate that information. As your Lordships will be aware, that is a very challenging proposition indeed in certain countries. We in the UK are determined to play our part and do what we can to use communication to spread information and provide up-to-date positions. We can only hope that some of that is landing, as I said earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, however this conflict ends, and end it will, the threat from Russia will remain. What is the position of the United Kingdom Government on security guarantees, in advance of any possible NATO membership, to protect Ukraine from any future Russian threat?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, the UK is supportive of Ukraine’s accession to NATO. We think that is a very important step forward in relation to Euro-Atlantic security. As he will be aware, that is for the member states of NATO to determine, and it will be for them to determine whether any other criteria have to be taken into account.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend give us some more information about the very welcome meeting of the JEF in Amsterdam on 13 June? I congratulate my noble friend on the initiatives on behalf of this country to support the people of Ukraine, but can she let us know more about the air defence package that was agreed on 13 June and seems most helpful and most exciting?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Yes, I can provide my noble friend and the Chamber with some further information. This is a substantial package from JEF member states of £92 million. It will be procured through the International Fund for Ukraine and will be used to bolster Ukraine’s ability to protect its critical national infrastructure, civilian population and front-line personnel. The package will, for example, provide radars to help protect against indiscriminate Russian strikes, as well as guns and a significant amount of ammunition.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the best strategy for the people of Ukraine is to look towards a peace settlement? In this House we are used to Orwellian language, where we refer to defence and mean offence. The long-suffering people of Ukraine will benefit if there can be a peace settlement in which all Russian troops are withdrawn and some guarantee given to the Russians that the West has no hostile intentions towards them. It would, incidentally, be the end of Putin.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Peace could certainly be achieved if Russia withdrew from this barbaric, illegal war now. Unfortunately, far from accepting that, Russia continues on a path of violence, brutalism and barbarism. That has to be resisted robustly and that is why there is such a global alliance, in which the UK is playing a proud role, to see off this wrong.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that of course there are always discussions between us, Ukraine and our allies, including about how we disseminate information and to whom we send it? Is it not the case that now is not the time to show any weakness or doubt in what we are doing? Rather, it is a time to redouble our efforts and stay strong and determined, making sure that Russia and those who support her know that. We should have no doubt that this struggle is not only Ukraine’s fight but all our fight, in defence of the international rules-based order, freedom and democracy.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I commend the noble Lord on his sentiments; I agree with every word he uttered.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, talked about “the global South”, but a large number of smaller countries still maintain full commercial, trade and military links with the Kremlin, including, I am afraid, a number of smaller Commonwealth countries. Can the Minister tell us exactly what HMG are doing in working with the Commonwealth Secretariat and making diplomatic representations to these countries?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As a matter of general United Kingdom Government business, we regularly look at the sanctions regime and engage with countries where we are concerned about continuing transactional relationships with Russia. As for the specific detail my noble friend seeks, I undertake to speak to my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon to see whether we can provide more information for him.

RAF: C-130J Hercules

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of withdrawing the C-130J Hercules aircraft on the capacity of the RAF transport fleet.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Atlas A400M is the next generation of air mobility aircraft. It is a more modern and capable aircraft than the Hercules C-130J, offering the opportunity to approach those tasks carried out by the Hercules in a different manner. Compared with Hercules, Atlas has an improved lift capacity and range. It is increasingly capable in the tactical role and has proven operational credibility in the airlift role.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

A month ago, two-thirds of the incoming Atlas A400 fleet, which will at the end of this month replace the Hercules craft that were, for example, so important in Sudan, were still listed as unavailable for flying missions as they cannot carry out all the niche functions of the C-130s, such as in Special Forces missions. The response from the defence sector has been scathing; some I cannot quote but others have said that the UK will be “dangerously exposed”. Does the Minister accept that criticism? From 1 July, how many transport aircraft will be in operation until the remaining planes are fit for purpose, whenever that will be?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, we have taken delivery of the full cohort of flight, that being 22 of these aircraft. It is the case that there were some niche challenges and some availability issues to do with global supply, but I reassure your Lordships about two things: all critical operational commitments are met and all critical operational commitments continue to be met. The issues around niche capabilities boiled down to two things: a small range of niche airdrop capabilities and a small range of air dispatch capabilities. I cannot give further detail on those but they are now being accelerated in terms of being addressed. On availability, I am pleased to confirm that the improvement there has been manifest. We have seen a 25% to 30% improvement in availability compared with 18 months ago.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the reference to niche capabilities makes this sound like something minor but we are talking about Special Forces operations here. Can the Minister tell the House by what date the Atlas fleet will be capable of the full range of Special Forces missions? Can she also say, given the difficulties with the serviceability of the Atlas, what the target rate of availability is for that aircraft fleet and how it compares with its current availability?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble and gallant Lord will be aware, on availability, if we factor in planned maintenance for the whole fleet and retrofitting for some of the older A400Ms to bring them up to modern standards, there will always be an element of unavailability. On the matter of the Special Forces, the noble and gallant Lord will understand that I cannot comment specifically on their activities, but I refer him to the meeting on 17 May of the Defence Select Committee in the other place, when Air Chief Marshal Sir Richard Knighton—now Chief of the Air Staff—reassured the committee that he had spoken to Director Special Forces. He was clear that he was very impressed with the A400M and that it could achieve all potential courses of action.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as the Government’s defence export advocate. The Hercules has given loyal service for more than 60 years but its successor, the A400M, has been planned for some 20 years. It has double the range and double the payload, and it flies faster. It does all the things that the Hercules can do, or it will do in time, but there have been some niche problems, as has been explained. However, my understanding is that some of our European allies will now not seek to buy their initial order of A400Ms, meaning that there will be some spare capacity in the production line. If the price is right, will the Government consider buying some more?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My noble friend never hesitates to tempt me to give the Chamber interesting titbits from the Dispatch Box. The current fleet of 22 aircraft is the basis on which we are currently working. As my noble friend will be aware, the Atlas will not completely replicate what the Hercules did; it is a more versatile plane and there are other activities that other aircraft can carry out.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Hercules has been taken out of service. Fourteen of them were due to continue until the 2030s but are being withdrawn this year. In December last year, the National Audit Office indicated that, instead of there being more Atlases, 22 was going to be the total number. Is the Minister reassured that we have sufficient capabilities, niche or otherwise? If not, could she go back to the department and suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, is right that we should be seeking to increase the number of A400Ms?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I will take the last bit of the noble Baroness’s question first. There is no evidence to suggest that the size of that capability is inadequate. I have been frank about the acceleration of the capabilities where improvement had to be effected; that is happening. In fact, what was evident from Operation Polar Bear, the evacuation from Sudan, was that the Atlas acquitted itself with distinction. It got a lot of people out—more than a Hercules could ever have done—so, as I say, it is fit for purpose. I repeat: all critical operational commitments are being met.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I refer to the two special occasions when I was exposed to the capabilities of the C-130. The first was a no less than 12-hour flight from Ascension Island to the Falklands; we refuelled at least twice in the air on the way. That flight was commanded by Wing Commander Carrington, whose younger brother is, I believe, now the noble Lord, Lord Carrington of Fulham. The second occasion was when I did a parachute jump into Poole Harbour from the back of a C-130. Happily, I was rescued very quickly by the Royal Marines.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I must observe that my noble friend is much more intrepid than I am.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will probably be aware that A400Ms from the UK, France and Germany performed quite superbly during the Caribbean disaster relief operations after Hurricane Irma in 2017, landing on rougher strips and carrying heavier loads, including Puma helicopters. Further to my noble friend Lord Lancaster’s question, exports are going to be crucial—not just to the UK economy but to BAE in particular. How is the export programme going?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I have no specific information on that. I shall undertake to write to my noble friend with whatever information I can procure.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Could my noble friend the Minister give us some more information about the reports there have been that 15 nations, 11 of which are NATO members, are interested in buying RAF Hercules C-130s? Is the intention to sell them before we get the required number of A400Ms? Can she give us any more information about those proposed sales?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I can confirm that the Hercules will be withdrawn from service at the end of this month, and that sales activity is already being managed through the Defence Equipment Sales Authority. Disposal is at a very early stage, but we are already looking at activities to support the potential sale of the aircraft, support equipment, specialised C-130J spares and flight simulators. We are exploring potential sales on a Government-to-Government basis.