European Forest Institute (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Grand Committee do consider the European Forest Institute (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2024.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, copies of this order were laid before this House on 15 May 2024. The order was laid in draft before Parliament on 15 May, in accordance with the International Organisations Act 1968. It is subject to the affirmative procedure and will be made once it is approved by both Houses. The order was approved in the House of Commons on 23 October 2024.

The main legal recourse to grant privileges and immunities to international organisations with a presence in the United Kingdom is the International Organisations Act 1968, which specifies the maximum privileges and immunities that may be accorded in the UK to various categories of international organisations. The provisions of the Act are applied to different organisations by means of Orders in Council. This order will confer on the European Forest Institute, referred to as the EFI, a bespoke set of privileges and immunities to enable the organisation to function and operate effectively in the UK. It does not confer legal capacity, as this was conferred on the EFI in the European Forest Institute (Legal Capacities) Order 2005.

This order will contribute to the fostering of closer collaboration between the EFI, its members and the UK Government, and support the establishment of an EFI UK office. In addition, in granting these privileges and immunities, we will be able to host an expansion of the EFI’s international partnerships facility in the UK through the opening of a UK office. The international partnerships facility is a global centre of knowledge and expertise that supports policy and governance reforms to improve forest governance and safeguard the world’s forests.

The EFI would host a small, permanent UK-based team, as well as drawing internationally renowned expertise into the UK. With London a major hub for private sector climate finance, there are potential opportunities to bring international forest and finance experts together to foster new financial initiatives, aimed at protecting the world’s forests and tackling climate change and nature loss. The order affords the director, the head of office and EFI staff members a bespoke set of privileges and immunities which diplomatic agents of a diplomatic mission established in the UK are entitled to, including an exemption from the suit and legal process. However, no immunity is conferred in the case of a motor traffic offence or damage caused by a motor vehicle. This is now a standard clause included in statutory instruments and treaties providing for privileges and immunities.

The Government consider these privileges and immunities necessary and appropriate to deliver on the interests and commitments that the UK has towards the EFI. The privileges and immunities conferred will enable its staff to operate effectively in the UK. They are within the scope of the International Organisations Act and in line with UK precedents. The EFI’s board members, and representatives of members, are subject to “official act” immunities. These immunities cover the inviolability of official papers and documents, customs provisions and immunity from suit and legal process, within the scope of official activities. The order also covers the inviolability of the EFI premises and archives, taxes and customs rates, and an immunity waiver.

The support for the EFI’s establishment of an office in the UK is a unique opportunity to reinforce the UK’s leadership on international forests and climate policy. The UK has been involved with the EFI for over 10 years, including through the FCDO’s flagship forest governance, markets and climate programme. Together with the EFI, we have supported national processes on forest and land-use governance in 17 countries across the three tropical forest basins. The EFI is key to that work and the UK remains committed to the organisation. I beg to move.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, for her comprehensive introduction to this subject. She will not be surprised to know that we are fully supportive of the European Forest Institute. It is a good idea for it to be based in the UK and we support the instrument that the Minister has brought before us today.

The EFI plays a pivotal role in advancing research, fostering innovation and developing evidence-based policy recommendations for the extremely important subject of sustainable forestry. As ecological degradation threatens forests worldwide, the institute has a key role to play and its work is becoming ever more vital. As the Minister said, this order seeks to grant immunities and privileges to the EFI, in line with a number of similar agreements that we have established with other international institutions—I took some of those orders through Grand Committee a matter of months ago. Immunities such as those outlined in the order are essential for allowing the EFI to operate independently, free from local administrative and judicial interference.

The UK has historically been a leader in international environmental co-operation. Supporting the EFI aligns with our commitment to combat climate change. It reflects our shared desire for forests that are productive, biodiverse and resilient against the stresses of modernity. The only question I have for the Minister is whether she has any more of these orders coming forward for other international organisations or whether this is the only one outstanding at the moment. We support this order.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support. It is very good when we can agree on important issues such as this on a long-term, bipartisan basis. It is good to be able to work in this way on an issue such as forestry, especially in a week when the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are at COP in Baku, where deforestation and the responsible management of forests will no doubt be discussed. I welcome the support from the Official Opposition.

Motion agreed.

West Papua

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what representations they are making to the government of Indonesia to ensure that the recommendations of the UN Human Rights Committee regarding the indigenous population in West Papua are fully implemented.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK welcomes the recommendations of the UN Human Rights Committee in response to the second periodic report of Indonesia under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. We regularly raise our concerns about the human rights situation in Papua, both with the Indonesian embassy in London and directly with the Government in Jakarta. In July 2024, the Foreign Secretary raised Papua with the then Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

I thank the Minister for her reply. Since Indonesia invaded and occupied West Papua there have been the most appalling human rights atrocities. Perhaps as many as 300,000 people have been killed, and particularly worrying at the moment is the way West Papua is being repopulated by people from Indonesia so that the indigenous population is in danger of becoming a minority in its own country. The world does not know about this, because Indonesia refuses to allow the press, NGOs or human rights commissioners in. What further steps could the Government take to press the Indonesian Government, and what further steps might they take with the UN itself? This situation has gone on for far too long.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble and right reverend Lord raises his concerns about this issue consistently, and we respect him for doing that. As I say, we will continue to raise concerns through the Foreign Minister and others. Minister Dodds visited Indonesia in September, and she also raised concerns about Papua.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to universal human rights. The Minister may anticipate my question, as I have mentioned it before in the House. When are the Government going to appoint a special envoy for freedom of religion and belief? Contrary to the promises that have been made, this has not happened. This is a bipartisan issue, which we all support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

This is very much a bipartisan issue, and so it should always be. The Government will be making announcements about trade envoys and others, I hope very soon.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, has the Minister been briefed on the Human Rights Watch report from September, which recommended that the Indonesian Government unconditionally release West Papua and other detainees in exercise of their fundamental political rights, and specifically for the new Indonesian Government, just formed, to permit UN human rights monitors to visit West Papua? This would honour a commitment that the previous Indonesian Government gave in 2018 but that has yet to be honoured. Have His Majesty’s Government specifically asked for that latter point with the new Administration?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We support the work of the UN Commission on Human Rights in this regard. As the noble Lord suggests, this was raised in recent dialogue with Indonesian political representatives.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, do His Majesty’s Government agree with the Pacific Conference of Churches that the future for West Papua, alongside Mā’ohi Nui, or French Polynesia, and Kanaky, or New Caledonia, lies in self-determination? If so, what conversations have His Majesty’s Government had with the Indonesian Government to put the case that they should give freedom to those territories they have invaded and annexed?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The issue here is that we support self-determination but recognise the territorial integrity of Indonesia. There are many cases where there are independence movements, including, it should be noted, here in the UK. It is usually wise for international partners to raise these sorts of issues in a very careful way. We have raised issues of human rights, but we respect, as I have said, the integrity of the borders of Indonesia.

[Lord Gold (Con)]

My Lords, the deliberate abuse going on is terrible. If the Government are going to be consistent with their policy, should they not be doing something more than talking to the ambassador for Indonesia? We have seen elsewhere that they are prepared to stop trade. There is £3.5 billion-worth of trade going on with Indonesia each year. Perhaps the Government should stop some of it.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We have a range of options, as the noble Lord indicates, and these judgments can be very finely balanced around how to have influence and how to become an irrelevant voice on the sidelines. We encourage Indonesia to co-operate with the United Nations. I do not think that all we are doing is talking to the Indonesian ambassador —although of course we do that. These issues have been raised by the Foreign Secretary and by the Minister for Development, Minister Dodds, in person, in Indonesia, at ministerial level.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister is right to be realistic. Is there any evidence whatever that taking action against one country on trade would make any difference? Quite frankly, if we go down that road then there will be hardly any nations we can trade with.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Every circumstance is different. All the situations where we have concerns are unique. Sometimes it is not possible to raise concerns through dialogue. Sometimes the nature of the relationship is such that that is completely unproductive; we can all think of examples where that is the case. In the case of Indonesia, we have a good relationship with the Government there. We seek to use that relationship to raise these concerns. I think that is the right approach.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister is aware that the alien and invasive crop of palm oil, which was imposed on the people of West Papua little more than a decade ago, has caused enormous destruction and is very much associated with the human rights abuses that the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, raised in his Question. I do not know whether she is aware of an excellent anthropological study of this, In the Shadow of the Palms: More-Than-Human Becomings in West Papua, which describes how, for the indigenous people of West Papua, oil palms are like sessile triffids that have come in and destroyed their environment and their communities. Can she assure me that no palm oil from West Papua is coming into the UK?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We have worked with the Indonesian Government on sustainable palm oil. I have not read the anthropological study that the noble Baroness refers to, but if she wants to send it to me I would be very happy to look at it. We very much support the role of indigenous communities, particularly in promoting biodiversity and preventing deforestation. They are vital partners and we will achieve very little unless we work closely with indigenous communities.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, should we not be concerned about the Indonesian colonisation of West Papua, which, as the noble and right reverend Lord said, has led to the deaths of tens of thousands among the indigenous population? Will the Government do all they can to stir the international community into action on this matter?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I think the international community is aware of the situation in Papua, hence the interest from the United Nations. We will continue to work through that method, and bilaterally, to raise the issues that we are all so concerned about.

[Lord Spellar (Lab)]

My Lord, I congratulate the Minister on the very measured approach that she is taking. Can she reassure us that the Foreign Office recognises the crucial importance of Indonesia, which is the fourth most populous nation in the world, the most populous Muslim nation, and a crucial part of the economic and security infrastructure in the Indo-Pacific? While we make those representations, can we also advance our relationship?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Whenever possible, influence should be gained through a good relationship and, sometimes, by being a critical friend. The noble Lord’s points about the wider Indo-Pacific and the security situation are things that a responsible Government here in the UK need to take into account.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for her answers to the noble Lords, Lord Spellar and Lord Watts. Will she take this opportunity to congratulate Indonesia on having last month deposited its formal application to join the CPTPP? Will she congratulate it on, like us, having had a recent democratic and peaceful transition of power, where the new Government keep the same trade policy towards the Pacific bloc as the previous one? Will she take this opportunity to confirm that we will not engage in the kind of protectionism disguised as environmentalism that has led the rapeseed oil industry in Europe to come up with, effectively, a sabotage of any trade deal, thereby opening the door towards the UK being Indonesia’s chief trading partner in this part of the world?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We note the approach to the CPTPP by Indonesia. We believe in free trade and we want to strengthen our trading relationship with partners through the CPTPP, as the noble Lord would expect.

Journalists Detained or Killed Overseas

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I declare an interest as patron of the Rory Peck Trust and note my other interests in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, we urge the South Sudanese Government to protect journalists and end impunity for human rights abuses. We consistently pressed them to conduct a thorough and credible investigation into Christopher Allen’s death, which resulted in the formation of the investigative committee in 2003 and the subsequent report in March 2024. The UK is examining options to strengthen support for British nationals abroad, including a right to assistance in cases of human rights violations.

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, in August 2017, journalist Christopher Allen, a UK-US citizen, was brutally murdered by government forces in South Sudan while reporting on the conflict there, his corpse despoiled and trophy images of it displayed and filmed in an act of barbarity. No one has been brought to justice, and the report the noble Baroness mentions was deeply flawed and was condemned by international lawyers and press freedom groups as a whitewash.

I have two points for the noble Baroness. First, what pressure will the Government bring to bear on South Sudan to facilitate a proper, independent report which allows Christopher’s family finally to learn the facts about his killing and establish lessons for the UK Government? Secondly, what action will the Government take to bring an end to appalling levels of impunity? Some 80% of the killings of journalists worldwide go unpunished, which directly puts the lives of British journalists in jeopardy.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his supplementary question, and he is absolutely right to draw attention to this issue. We recognise the criticisms about the report that he outlined. We want to know what happened. When you lose a member of your family in such circumstances, in the conduct of their work in a dangerous situation, the family is entitled to know what happened. Sadly, I am afraid that I do not have a great deal of optimism about getting another investigation that would be any more credible or shed any more light on what happened. However, I thank the noble Lord for again bringing the House’s attention to Christopher Allen’s case, and we send our deepest sympathies again to his family.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in the second part of the noble Baroness’s very welcome reply to the Question that has been put to her, she referred to providing assistance in cases of human rights violation. I welcome the fact that it was a manifesto commitment to do that. Considering the recent meetings that the Foreign Secretary has had with his Chinese and Egyptian counterparts, can the Minister outline what concrete steps His Majesty’s Government have taken to secure consular access to Jimmy Lai, a British publisher who was unjustly jailed in Hong Kong, and Alaa Abd el-Fattah, a British blogger who has been arbitrarily imprisoned in Egypt for the past 10 years?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As the noble Lord knows, I believe that we have answered questions on Jimmy Lai very recently, but we continue to raise these cases at ministerial level with the relevant Governments, and we remain deeply concerned that we have been unable to gain the access that we would wish.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her Question. We in the previous Government were very much focused on this; can the Minister reassure us about the focus of this Government on media freedom globally and the international alliance that the previous Government set up with Canada? Secondly, the previous Government were exploring the issue of compensation. She may recall that, back in 2014 under the leadership of my noble friend Lord Cameron, we set up a compensation fund for victims of terrorism abroad. Efforts were made to see whether we could also look at extending the scope of that fund, which—from memory—sits with the Ministry of Justice.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

In thanking the noble Lord, I note that sometimes, where there is a change of power in our democracy, former Ministers take with them different things; the noble Lord takes with him a desire to make sure that the torch is received by the incoming Government and that we will carry on doing the work that he initiated. We respect that. I will consider the points he makes about compensation; as he rightly says, that may well lie in other departments, but he was right to raise them.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, so many conflicts now are incredibly dangerous that reporters who are on the front line—often the faces and the voices that we see and hear on our news channels—are not the people who actually shoot the footage and get out there on the front line. Often, these freelance journalists are inadequately protected. I know that they are protected by some statute, but could the Minister look to see whether, in the case of broadcasts that we see here in the UK, we could at least offer them flack jackets and some level of support, and ensure that, if they do get into trouble, they are helped and, possibly, returned, if that is necessary, to the UK or a place of safety?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We respect enormously the work that is done by journalists. We advise against all travel to South Sudan, and yet we know that it is important that the truth of what is happening there is reported by brave journalists. We will offer every assistance that we can, should they need it.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that aid to South Sudan comes in different strands, including humanitarian development and direct budget support. As far as the latter is concerned, that is money paid by the UK Government to South Sudanese government departments, where there is obviously some leverage that can be made. Therefore, can she comment on what pressure is being put on them and how they are using that leverage in a constructive way?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is true that there are different options we can use to approach South Sudan. We can disengage or we can use various levers. We have a relationship with the Government there, and our view is that that is the best way to have some influence. We have a team in Juba, and we provide assistance to people in the most desperate situations. It is one of the most difficult areas on the planet at the moment. Our Minister for Development, in her first visit to Africa, chose to visit South Sudan just to make sure that we use every opportunity to raise our concerns.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the situation in Juba, South Sudan, requires the kind of reporting and free media that the Minister states, and I agree with her very strongly. However, in Sudan, with the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis and the conflict going on, there is scant reporting and still very brave journalists who are under very considerable threat. The Disasters Emergency Committee has told me that it is not willing to open a humanitarian appeal for Sudan because of the lack of public awareness of the Sudanese crisis. Will the Government support UK-based media and those who are seeking to allow the public to understand that the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis is going on? Those who are responsible for asking the public for support are not being asked.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I was not aware that the DEC took that view. I will look into that, following the noble Lord’s question. It is clearly right that journalists should be able to report from situations that they feel we need to know about, and we respect their freedom to do that and support it. I assure journalists who wish to report from Sudan that they will have the support of the British Government in doing their job.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)]

My Lords, the situation in South Sudan is dangerous for all citizens, not just journalists. Democratic elections planned for this month have been cancelled. Can His Majesty’s Government explain what they are doing to achieve stability and to re-establish democracy in South Sudan?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is true that progress on the peace agreement has been slow and progress towards holding democratic elections is not what we would want to see. We continue to press upon the Government in South Sudan the importance of making progress and our continued support for the peace process. However, the institutions needed for elections are not sufficiently developed as yet. None the less, we will continue to make the case for free and fair elections in South Sudan.

[Lord Camoys (Con)]

My Lords, there are more than 1,400 political prisoners in the Russian Federation, at least 63 of whom are journalists and media actors. There have been reports of Russia targeting journalists in the Ukraine war. Does the Minister know how many British journalists are in Ukraine, and how does she plan to keep them safe?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The truth is that I do not know how many British journalists are in Ukraine or whether anybody would be able to answer the noble Lord’s question. However, we work with media organisations, we listen to Reporters Sans Frontières and we take the concerns that they raise seriously and use every lever that we can, multilaterally and bilaterally, to ensure the safety of journalists, who, as I have said, do such an important job for us. It is vital that we understand what is happening in Ukraine.

China: Human Rights and Sanctions

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we are told that when the Foreign Secretary visited China, he raised British citizen Jimmy Lai’s sham detention, and we welcome that. Jimmy is 76 and is being held in solitary confinement, yet the Foreign Secretary has still not met Jimmy’s son, despite his coming to the UK on multiple occasions and asking for a meeting. Yesterday in the other place, the Foreign Secretary failed to answer whether or not he would meet Jimmy’s son, so let me give the Minister another opportunity. Will Ministers meet Jimmy Lai’s son—yes or no?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

That is quite an easy one because my colleague, Minister Catherine West, has met Jimmy’s family on several occasions, both in opposition and since being appointed as a Minister. I also recall from reading the transcript of the Commons exchanges yesterday that the Foreign Secretary did indeed commit to meeting Sebastien Lai.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary said yesterday in the House of Commons

“this Government will set a long-term, consistent and strategic approach to China”.

That would be welcome. He went on, however, to criticise the previous Government in 2015 for what they termed a “golden era” of their relationship with China. Have the Government committed in their strategic audit of their relations with China, which I support, to include all the preferential trading agreements the UK has offered China? This includes financial services, where Chinese state enterprises which have some element of involvement in human rights abuses may be involved in preferential market access to British financial services. Will that review be public?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support for the China audit. I think the most helpful thing I can say at this point is that the audit will be thorough and cross-government; the whole of Whitehall and all departments will be included in that audit.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I am astonished that the Foreign Secretary did not offer a Statement to the House of Commons but forced an Urgent Question, which has, of course, limited our opportunity to ask questions as well. Is it because he understands that there are some western democracies that, in the recent past, have got their people out of Chinese Communist Party prisons, yet his kowtowing visit means that he came back empty-handed as far as Jimmy Lai is concerned?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I must disagree with my noble friend on his assertions and the tone in which he put his question. My right honourable friend David Lammy, the Foreign Secretary, went to China because he wanted to raise these issues. Unless we engage with China, we do not get the opportunity to raise these issues. He raised the case of Jimmy Lai. He has called for Jimmy Lai to be released, as well he should. This is consistent with his position in opposition. He has gone further and made sure that every Minister in their engagement with China continues to raise on every occasion the case of Jimmy Lai. He should be released.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom consistently led on the situation of the Uighurs in Xinjiang. Last year, at the UN Third Committee and subsequently at the Human Rights Council, 51 member states, led by the United Kingdom, signed a statement. I note with some degree of disappointment that there was a statement presented this year at the same forum, where only 16 countries, the United Kingdom included, came behind an Australian- led permanent representative statement. What action will the Government take to continue to ensure the UK’s leadership on this important issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We will continue to lead on this issue where we can in international fora. I am grateful for what the noble Lord said, and we share his concerns on this. But, to reiterate, the Foreign Secretary raised Xinjiang and the Uighur people in China last week, and he will continue to do so because our concerns have not changed since the change of Government. He will continue to raise those issues whenever and wherever he can.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

I will ask the Minister about the situation for parliamentarians in this country who were sanctioned because of raising what was happening to the Uighur community in Xinjiang province. Two Members of this House—myself and the noble Lord, Lord Alton—and five Members of the House of Commons were sanctioned. I understand that that was not raised in the Foreign Secretary’s meeting with the leadership in China. Preserving our right to raise human rights issues, without feeling that there will be consequences for doing so, should concern this House.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I completely agree with my noble friend, as does the Foreign Secretary. These issues are raised. The sanctions against parliamentarians for things they have said are completely unwarranted and unacceptable. The Foreign Secretary met with Speaker Hoyle before his trip to China to reiterate that this was a concern to him. It is a concern to the Foreign Secretary and to all of us in the Government. It is inappropriate that parliamentarians in this and the other House should be sanctioned in this way, and we will consistently raise this with China.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that it is right to raise where Chinese behaviour is deplorable and to challenge China robustly, but should we not seek to switch the emphasis to a less defensive and more positive side? We can outsmart the Chinese by showing that our kind of liberal capitalism, when we reform it—it needs reforming—is vastly superior to anything they can deliver, and that freedom under the law and free speech are of more benefit to nations than falling under the Chinese hegemon, as they will find in time. If the security and prosperity of the developing world are the prime requirement, the Commonwealth contains six of the fastest-growing economies in the world—a very much better bunch than the dodgy deals of BRI and other arrangements with the Chinese, where countries just find themselves loaded with more and more debt. Is there not a more positive side to take, as well as raising these issues that have very properly been raised?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

On this Government’s approach, we want a consistent, strategic and pragmatic relationship because we think that is the best way to make progress on some of these issues that are of concern to all sides of the House. The way that we are describing this is that we will co-operate where we can, compete where we need to and challenge where we must.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, did the Foreign Secretary raise the appalling treatment of Tibetans, particularly the sacrilege by which some of their wonderfully famous and sacred sites are being destroyed? If this was raised, does the Minister know the answer?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am frantically looking through the read-out of the exchange to see a reference to Tibet. I assure the noble Baroness that the Foreign Secretary raised a number of foreign policy and security matters, particularly issues around human rights. As she would expect, you do not get an instant result in these sorts of exchanges—diplomacy is about consistency and it takes time. But we are now in a period where we want a consistent, stable and pragmatic relationship. For 14 years, the relationship has blown hot and cold, and we have not had that stability and consistency. So that is the approach we will see from this Government.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, the Chinese state is not the first autocracy in the world and it may not be the most repressive, but it is by far the most technologically advanced. The ways in which the People’s Republic uses face recognition technology, surveillance technology and apps that monitor your phone is without precedent, as is the way it uses notionally private companies, such as Tencent, Weibo and Alibaba. Has the Minister’s department made any assessment of whether this kind of surveillance state could be exported; in other words, whether China’s allies and client states might be offered the package of a panopticon state to use on their own citizens?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we are concerned about surveillance and threats to, for instance, BNO passport holders or others here in the UK, and we monitor that extremely closely. We take our responsibilities towards human rights, compromises of freedom of religious belief and other issues of privacy very seriously.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of China’s intentions to act aggressively in a military sense in the western Pacific? Do they agree that it is highly likely to come very shortly? What are we doing about it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we take the issues of freedom of navigation on the high seas extremely seriously. These were raised with China by the Foreign Secretary, and we made our position on these issues very clear.

South Asia: Minority Faith Communities

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, for securing this debate on such an important topic. In the light of his heartfelt introduction, I pay tribute to his previous leadership and activism on this agenda, including but not only when he was a Minister at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.

I thank all noble Lords for their insightful and heartfelt contributions. This is a topic unlike any other in the portfolio of any Minister; it is something that I think we all feel to our fingertips. Freedom of religion or belief is something that, as the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, closed with, we enjoy in this country, and we are grateful for that. It is a right that we wish to see extended across the globe, but, sadly, the situation—and not just in south Asia, as the noble Lord pointed out—is not a good one.

The Pew Research Center’s latest study revealed that global government restrictions on religion hit a new high two years ago. This is why we must continue to champion freedom of religion or belief—or FoRB, as we call it—for all, and challenge threats to it wherever they occur, including in south Asia.

Given the devastating ongoing conflicts around the world today, respecting freedom of religion or belief and promoting interreligious dialogue can build trust between communities and contribute to securing sustainable peace. That is the work that we wish to see extended everywhere we can. However, as noble Lords have made clear through their contributions, sadly that is lacking in too many places today.

Across south Asia, many countries have seen a rise in incidents of violence and discrimination directed towards minority communities. This is deeply concerning. We have heard today examples and stories of hideous abuses. In Pakistan, in addition to the accounts we have heard from noble Lords, there have been at least four targeted killings of Ahmadi Muslims this year alone. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sahota, for sharing his family’s experience of Sikh communities in Pakistan; his insights are of great value to this House.

In September, in Pakistan, two men were killed by law enforcement officers in separate incidents of violence relating to allegations of blasphemy. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, raised the blasphemy laws, and we are grateful to them for bringing them to our attention. As noble Lords may know, in May, a large mob violently assaulted a Christian man and his family in Punjab, on accusations of blasphemy. An elderly man died in hospital a week later as a result of his injuries. Elsewhere in south Asia, recently enacted and proposed legislation in Sri Lanka risks limiting fundamental freedoms too. Sadly, the list of examples is far too long.

The situation is troubling, to say the least. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, pointed us in the direction of data from the Pew Research Center. He told us that three of the 19 countries that scored very high on the Government Restrictions Index are in south Asia: Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Maldives. He also told us that three of the seven countries that scored very high on the Social Hostilities Index are in south Asia: India, Afghanistan and Pakistan. We can see that Pakistan and Afghanistan are among the four countries globally classified as having among the highest levels of both government restriction and social hostilities involving religion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, asked me to offer her some hope on Afghanistan. I am not sure that I am able to do that this evening, and she will understand why, but I am grateful to her, as I am sure all noble Lords are, for bringing her concerns to the debate this evening. She rightly asked me about women and girls. We know that in conflict and religious persecution it is often women and girls who bear the brunt. I reassure her that the programmes we have on gender-based violence and raising awareness of the harms of early and forced marriage are continuing. I hope that we can continue to have her support for those.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, asked about the Bishop of Truro and his work. The Bishop of Truro’s 2019 review provided recommendations for FCDO support for freedom of religion or belief. In 2022, as she will know, an independent review assessing the department’s implementation of the recommendations was largely positive. I think some of the credit for that may go to the noble Baroness—I am not sure—and certainly to the noble Lord. With this concluded, we are going to look ahead to build on it and on the work that the previous Government did in this area.

Recognising that human rights are universal, indivisible, interdependent and interrelated, this Government continue to champion freedom of religion or belief for all, across the world. It is our firm belief that no one should live in fear because of what they do or do not believe in. Across south Asia, the UK is taking action. The Government regularly raise the importance of religious tolerance and freedom of religion or belief, including at the highest levels. To give just one example, Minister Falconer recently underlined its importance when he met Pakistan’s human rights Minister in September.

Through our programmes, we are directly supporting communities and affected populations and addressing drivers. In Sri Lanka, the UK Integrated Security Fund is working to strengthen social cohesion, countering hate speech and, which is also important, documenting cases of intimidation and attacks against religious minorities. In Pakistan, our accountability, inclusion and reducing modern slavery programme supports policy development and community empowerment to protect marginalised groups. Bringing together community and faith leaders, it promotes interfaith harmony and has reached over 35 million people with information and awareness about rights and government services. The John Bunyan Fund continues to support projects around the world that specifically aim to protect and promote freedom of religion or belief.

Listening to and, when we can, championing the voices of affected communities remains for this Government, as for the last, of the utmost importance. In India, the British High Commission in New Delhi and our network of deputy high commissioners across the country regularly meet religious representatives and have run projects supporting human rights. We have hosted ministerial level round-table discussions with various religious representatives.

I was asked by the noble Lords, Lord Ahmad and Lord Jackson, about Manipur. The situation is incredibly serious, as the noble Lord, Lord Jackson said; it is complex, and we understand that. We are going to continue to monitor it very closely through our deputy high commissioner in Kolkata. It is appropriate to say that we send our deepest condolences to all those affected. I commit that we will continue to raise our concerns directly with the Government there, including at ministerial level.

I take this opportunity to reference Nepal. We regularly interact with an interfaith group of different leaders, including representatives of believers in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Jainism and Om Shanti religions. We support the Tibetan Buddhist community, who face discrimination, and ensure that that is visible and impactful.

Noble Lords referenced Bangladesh. As the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, and others said, there has been a great deal of political upheaval in recent months in Bangladesh. The UK will continue to engage with a wide range of civil society and other stakeholders to understand fully what is happening and their concerns. We will continue to support freedom of religion or belief through our development programmes there.

As noble Lords will know, we also work multilaterally. We are an active member of several alliances working to promote and protect freedom of religion or belief, including the Article 18 alliance. These coalitions of member states work to advance this cause around the world. Just this month we have taken several measures. FCDO officials participated—I take the point that it was not a Minister; I believe it was when the noble Lord, Lord Collins, who has ministerial responsibility for this, was at CHOGM, but ordinarily he would very much have wanted to be there—in the international ministerial conference in Berlin, which was focused on freedom of religion or belief and AI.

We also delivered a statement at the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe conference on freedom of religion or belief and fundamental freedoms, given how crucial human rights are to the organisation’s comprehensive view of security. Last week the UK was pleased to participate in an interactive dialogue with the UN special rapporteur in New York, discussing connections between freedom of religion or belief and peace, which is the focus of her recent report. Earlier this month we co-sponsored a Human Rights Council resolution that extended the mandate of UN special rapporteur Richard Bennett to monitor and report on the human rights situation in Afghanistan, including the situation of minority groups, for another year.

The Whip is coughing at me, but I do not want to sit down without answering the point about the special envoy. Noble Lords will probably notice what I have said the last few times I have been asked about this. Their support for the position is noted. I do not have anything new to add today, but I am sure it will not be long before I have something more to say. I assure noble Lords that the torch from the previous Government has been received and we will continue to carry it forward because it is such an important issue.

Red Sea: Houthi Attacks

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to respond to Houthi attacks on global shipping passing through the Bab el-Mandeb straits and Southern Red Sea; and what recent advice has been given to UK flagged merchant ships travelling through that area.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, given that my noble friend is in uniform, I feel underdressed on this occasion.

My noble friend asks a serious Question. UK forces have participated in five joint operations with US forces against Houthi military facilities to degrade their ability to persist with their attacks on international shipping in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden. We continue to defend the freedom of navigation, safe passage and British lives at sea. We share with British shipping regular updates containing relevant security information, which support commercial decision-making.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for her Answer. I am sure she shares my admiration for our ships that have been involved there in very difficult circumstances and the aircraft that have carried out the attacks.

Having one ship there means that we need three ships. If we put two ships there, we need six ships. This being Trafalgar week, I think of Nelson, who said he would die with “lack of frigates” engraved on his heart. He had 210 frigates in his Navy. Today we have six operational frigates in our Navy. For many years we have been warning that this is the state we would get to. Looking to the future, ships are being built but very slowly. Can the Government speed up the rate? For example, the Japanese build a large destroyer in three years. We take eight years to build a small frigate. Can the Government pursue this, to speed up the building rate and get a quicker drum beat?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, as my noble friend would expect, we are committed to making sure that our military, be that on air, land or sea, is adequately equipped and has everything it needs to do its important job. We currently spend around £54 billion on defence and are working hard to get to a point where we can meet our commitment to spending 2.5% on defence.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is beyond urgent to put global pressure on the parties in the Middle East to bring the conflict to an end, given the devastation, loss of life and instability, as in this case, that it has produced? What action are the Government taking?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The implication of that question is that somehow the behaviour of the Houthis regarding shipping is related to the instability and the war in Israel and Gaza. We do not accept that. The behaviour of the Houthis needs to stop. It is a threat to security and stability more widely in the Middle East. We do not accept the Houthis’ contention that their behaviour is in any way related to the situation in Israel, Lebanon or Gaza.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, just to add to that question, will the Minister look at the wider situation regarding the peace agreement in Yemen? Until there is more momentum behind the peace talks in Yemen, this problem in the Red Sea is not going to be solved.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Until the horrendous attacks by Hamas on Israel on 7 October, the peace process was progressing. An envoy was engaged, and it looked as if there may well be some progress. Sadly, that is not the situation that we are in at the moment. We will use every diplomatic lever that we can, in addition to the measures we are taking to defend shipping and prevent further attacks, to bring about stability and de-escalation.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

My Lords, one effect of the attacks on shipping in the Red Sea is the increase in maritime insurance premiums. London is a world leader in maritime insurance. What discussions are taking place with the maritime insurance industry to ensure that shipping is insurable?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Clearly, the cost of insurance has been impacted by the activities of the Houthis. We have seen much shipping diverted around the Cape of Good Hope, which takes much longer and is more expensive. We are concerned about this. London is host to the International Maritime Organization, so we play a leading role in international maritime security. We continue to monitor closely the implications of this activity on the cost to shipping, which is one of the reasons why the action we have taken has been so decisive. We will continue to work as hard as we possibly can, using whatever levers are available, to prevent this danger to life and to stability in the region.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, one of the things that affect the security of the Red Sea routes, as we have discussed before, is security in the Horn of Africa. With the current inability of Ukraine to export its grain to that region—it is now almost exclusively going to western Europe—Russia has seized the opportunity to back-fill the provision of that grain to the region and to use food as a political tool to spread its malign influence. What are the UK Government doing to counter Russia’s activities in this regard?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The behaviour of Russia in this instance, as in many others, is deplorable. This shows how interconnected many of these conflicts are, meaning that our response to these issues and the posture that we adopt need to be carefully calibrated so that we work very carefully, consistently and with some effect—although we want to achieve far more to make sure that aid can get into Yemen and that the people of Somalia and Ethiopia get the support they need. The activities of Iran and Russia have been devastating to the lives of many people living in those countries.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I think we all wish to commend the professionalism of our Royal Navy personnel, so evident in this part of the world. In particular, HMS “Diamond” has been protecting shipping in the Red Sea. She called in a couple of weeks ago to refuel at Diego Garcia. Can the Minister confirm that the recent transfer of sovereignty of BIOT to Mauritius will not in any way obstruct the ability of the United Kingdom to protect UK-flagged merchant shipping in the region?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Absolutely. I am happy to provide that assurance, particularly since, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, the Houthis have made statements on wishing to extend their activities into the Indian Ocean. She is completely right to raise that, and I can provide the assurance she seeks.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, the Houthis have cast the United Kingdom as one of their enemies. People have been marching on the streets of Britain disgracefully supporting that. Will the UK Government proscribe the Houthis now?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are doing everything we can to de-escalate the situation. We do not seek a conflict with the Houthis. We have had to take military action to respond to the threats to shipping, including to British vessels, and we will continue to do that as we need to. Everything we do is with the aim of de-escalation, not least because that is what the people of Yemen need. They are experiencing extreme hunger. We need to be able to keep getting the aid into the north of Yemen for the sake of those people.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

My Lords, can UK-flagged merchant ships be armed if the owners, captain and crew agree?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Regarding decisions on maritime security, we have constant conversations with those responsible for shipping and give advice on security. We have not advised shipping to divert away from this route, but clearly those responsible are making decisions for themselves. We have seen a large number of vessels divert around the Cape of Good Hope, for obvious reasons.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

I thought the question was about arming vessels, not the route they took. Can the Minister answer that, please?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The answer I provided may not be the one that noble Lords opposite wanted to hear but, none the less, it is my answer. We work closely with those who are responsible for maritime security and for shipping. I think that is what a responsible Government would do. That is as far as I will go today.

Ukraine: North Korean Troops

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is highly likely that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has begun to send troops to Russia. This is a deeply concerning development that risks prolonging the war and augments DPRK’s already significant support to Russia, including munitions and arms that are being used by Russia in its illegal war against Ukraine. This further illustrates Russia’s growing reliance on third-country support and the deepening military co-operation between Russia and DPRK, which has security implications for Europe, the Indo-Pacific and the wider world.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I doubt anybody in NATO would wish to see a shooting war with Russia, far less, God forbid, a nuclear conflict. The aggressor, Putin, threatens the West throughout with dire consequences unknown if there is any escalation of the war, yet he is now apparently bringing in thousands of North Korean troops to assist him, from an ally in the axis of evil. Putin is already waging war against the West. In the UK, Litvinenko was murdered 18 years ago, we had the Salisbury poisonings and only last month we had the warning from Ken McCallum of MI5 about Putin’s intention to disrupt British life. Will the Minister please go back to her colleagues in the department so that we can further assist Ukraine in defeating the aggressor? In particular, will she lobby for allowing Storm Shadow missiles and other weaponry to be used for attacks on Russia, because the best way to maintain peace in Europe is to defeat the aggressor, Putin?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

Before my noble friend responds, this is called Question Time for a reason. We want short, sharp questions.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend the Chief Whip. With absolute respect for the long experience of the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, and the conviction and passion that he brings to his question, there were several points in there. We have discussed Storm Shadow at length in this Chamber. The only person who benefits from us discussing it in this way is Vladimir Putin. I will not say any more than what I have already said on Storm Shadow, but I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that this is further evidence of Russia’s hypocrisy, as he alluded to, its recklessness and its absolute disregard for international peace and security.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, we read and hear a lot about the military pressure Russia is exerting on Ukraine, but are not the increasing numbers of North Koreans involved in the conflict, along with the widening of the pool of prisoners from which Russia seeks to recruit soldiers, evidence that the pressure is far from one-sided? Does this not underscore the importance of sustained resolve on the part of the West?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord is correct, and that is what we will have. We have gone over this ground very many times, but it is always worth repeating that the defence of Ukraine is the defence of Europe. The consequence of the West doing anything other than showing the resolve that the noble and gallant Lord recommends would be to send a deeply worrying message that we fail to stand up to aggressors such as Putin. That must never, ever be something we can tolerate. We stand united in this House, in the country and with our allies.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, part of the pernicious relationship between North Korea and Russia is the supply of military equipment, but the disturbing BRICS summit, which many of our trading allies are currently attending with Putin, means that there are too many countries supplying component parts that can be channelled through North Korea and end up being used on the battlefields of Ukraine against our ally. Will the Minister ask the Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation—a new development that we welcome —to be proactive in ensuring that component parts for military equipment from our trading allies do not end up in Ukraine, and to look at widening our trade sanctions?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Our sanctions regime and the legislation that surrounds it apply to any UK entity, be that in the UK or worldwide, as the noble Lord knows. We will speak to anyone we need to, using any appropriate channels, to try to dissuade others from supplying Russia through whatever means. All anybody supplying Russia with munitions, troops or anything else serves to do, whether they are an ally of ours or not, is prolong this illegal war and the suffering of the people of Ukraine.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we on this side stand united with the noble Baroness and the Government in our support for Ukraine. Yesterday, it was reported in the Daily Telegraph that South Korea could send lethal weapons to Ukraine after North Korean troops land in Russia. Could she therefore confirm whether the Foreign Secretary was privy to any conversations during his recent visit to South Korea about whether it will provide support to Ukraine?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary recently spoke with his counterparts in South Korea and, indeed, in China. Noble Lords can rest assured that he raised at the highest level all the issues we would want him to raise regarding Russia, Ukraine and China.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that if North Korean troops were deployed in Ukraine or North Korean materiel were passed to Russia, that would be a breach of UN Security Council resolutions for which Russia voted in favour?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It would clearly be a breach. It is deeply concerning, and the most recent reports seem to indicate that it is highly likely, hence the deep concern we are expressing at the moment.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)]

The effective control of escalation in this conflict appears to be vital. Can the Minister in any way reassure the House that we are a fundamental part of some international mechanism that assesses escalation risk?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Everything we have done has been with a view to avoiding escalation, because that is the last thing we want to see. However, the reports we have had in recent days are a significant step, and we are deeply concerned. So, our approach will be to discuss the implications of this closely with our partners, as noble Lords would expect.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

Will the Minister please reflect on two points made this week at the All-Party Parliamentary Group on North Korea, which I co-chair? The first was that the young soldier who walked across a minefield in August is representative of many North Koreans who would like to escape from that tyranny. Can we reach over the heads of their armed forces commanders and make sure that they receive messages in Korean, so they know that they are entitled to take up Korean citizenship in the Republic of Korea should they defect? The second point concerns the United Nations commission of inquiry report 10 years ago. It found crimes against humanity by the North Korean regime and called for a referral to the International Criminal Court. That has never been done. When is the United Kingdom going to raise this?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I will give consideration to the last point the noble Lord raised, which is very important. On his point about the young Korean soldier, we have known for a long time that the people of North Korea are not masters of their own destiny and do not make their choices freely and willingly. It is desperately sad that we now seem likely to see further decisions made on their behalf, but not in their interests.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that this very serious recent development reinforces the importance of the UK’s programme for training Ukraine’s troops? Will she give the House an update on that programme?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right: this is an important contribution that we make and will continue to make. It sits alongside measures announced yesterday—the £2.6 billion additional funding for Ukraine, to be supported by interest on seized Russian assets, alongside the £3 billion per year that the UK has committed to for as long as Ukraine needs it.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister said in her initial Answer that she thought that the deployment of North Korean troops would prolong the war. When does she think this war is going to end, with or without the North Koreans?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I only wish I had the answer to that. All I can say is that the way this war ends and the circumstances in which it concludes must be and can only be the decision of the people of Ukraine.

Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Regulations laid before the House on 5 and 12 September be approved.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 21 October.

Motions agreed.

St Helena: UK Immigration

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the following Statement was made in the House of Commons on Monday 21 October:

“The House is aware that a political agreement has been reached with Mauritius about the long-term future of the British Indian Ocean Territory. Once any treaty with Mauritius comes into force, following its proper parliamentary scrutiny, Mauritius will be responsible for any migrants who arrive there. However, we needed to find an interim contingency solution for the period before that agreement comes into force. Given that there is no permanent population, BIOT has never been an appropriate long-term location for migrants due to the logistical challenges of providing appropriate care in such a remote place without civilian infrastructure.

On 15 October, a new memorandum of understanding was reached with the Government of St Helena so that any new migrants arriving in the interim period will be transferred to St Helena. The intention is for that agreement to last until the treaty with Mauritius comes into force, recalling that, in practice, no new migrants have arrived on Diego Garcia since 2022.

We are hugely grateful to the St Helena Government for their assistance. Their Chief Minister has said:

‘This arrangement presents a unique opportunity for a British Overseas Territory to be in a position to assist the UK, and we are pleased to be able to work in close partnership with the UK Government towards a mutually beneficial solution’.


The UK Government have agreed to provide one-off funding of £6.65 million to St Helena to improve health and education outcomes, and upgrade government infrastructure. This is consistent with our long-term support to the community in St Helena, which is of course crucial. This is a long-term, consistent partnership. We will support St Helena by providing technical support and funding the transfer and subsistence costs for any migrants affected. Of course, this is not the first time that St Helena has supported the wider UK family. The agreement is testament to its integral place in our family. We thank it for its support”.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. As noble Lords will remember, the previous Government were often criticised, sometimes justifiably, for making announcements in the media as opposed to making them to Parliament. It was therefore disappointing to see that this announcement was made by briefing to the media before Parliament was briefed on it.

As the noble Baroness said, an agreement was reached with the Government of St Helena. Does that mean that it was reached with the entire Legislative Council of St Helena and the residents who will be affected by this policy? Can the Minister say whether the Government are now in favour of offshoring asylum seekers while their applications are processed?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As to whether the agreement was reached with the entire Legislative Council, we respect the democratic autonomy of St Helena. It is for St Helena to determine what consultation or engagement it wishes to have; it is not for the UK Government to take those decisions on behalf of St Helena, which has the right to take them and has chosen to handle this in this way. The Minister from St Helena’s comment is very clear.

On offshoring, I think the noble Earl is trying to probe how this may or may not relate to the previous Government’s Rwanda programme. Noble Lords will recall that that programme cost £700 million and returned four migrants, voluntarily.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, it is good news that the Government have reached an agreement with Mauritius in principle, although there are of course still concerns about the involvement of the Chagossians in the process. Will any migrant who gets to these territories and is then transferred to St Helena have an opportunity to apply for asylum in this country, given the role we are playing in the interim period before Mauritius takes over its responsibilities? Will the Mauritius agreement be subject to scrutiny by the International Agreements Committee of this House? If so, when is it likely to come before us? Will the Tamil asylum seekers, who were kept in awful conditions on Diego Garcia without a solution being found until recently, be able to seek asylum in this country, even though they may have to transfer elsewhere in the interim? If so, what will be the timescale?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

These are theoretical migrants, as no migrants would be subject to the new agreement with St Helena. It is not an international agreement in the same way that our agreement with Mauritius is; it is an agreement with one of our overseas territories, so it is slightly different. In the very unlikely event that any new migrants arrive in the Chagos Islands, they would be removed to St Helena and it would be for St Helena to process them and make any decisions about their status. It is our position that Diego Garcia is not a suitable place for the current migrants; most have left, as we discussed a couple of weeks ago. They will not be subject to this agreement and will be dealt with separately.

[Baroness Hooper (Con)]

As I was recently in St Helena at a Commonwealth small islands conference, I was shocked to hear about this development. The education, health and other facilities for the small population of the island will be severely stretched. Can the Minister give us some idea of the numbers envisaged and the timescales, given the remoteness of St Helena and the transport difficulties?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I shall endeavour to reassure the noble Baroness, whose care for St Helena is clear in her question. Our hope is that no migrants arrive in the Chagos Islands during the 18 months that this agreement will be in place—it is either for 18 months or until the agreement with Mauritius is ratified, whichever is sooner. We hope that it is much sooner than 18 months and that nobody arrives and needs to be taken to St Helena. However, the noble Baroness is right to say that, regardless of any new migrants, St Helenians face health and education support challenges, and we are providing them with £7 million for that. We would also pay for the transport and subsistence of any new migrants, so we think this agreement is good for St Helena, which is why it has welcomed it so warmly.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, this is a substantial amount of money. Does the Minister agree with me that it could be much better spent on a comprehensive feasibility study of the practicalities of resettling the Chagossians on the outer islands? If that was successful and worked, surely the Sri Lankans currently on Diego Garcia could go to the outer islands.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord rightly says that £6.65 million is a lot of money, but I point out that the previous Government were spending £50 million every year on housing those migrants on Diego Garcia. We think that that is not an appropriate place for them to be, and we are going to work to make sure that they are more appropriately dealt with.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister that Diego Garcia is not an appropriate place to house migrants; indeed, there were returns of Sri Lankans to Sri Lanka. But under the agreement, if people arrive during the 18-month period, what happens to those who are rejected for asylum after the processing takes place on St Helena? Secondly, will those who are entitled to claim asylum in St Helena be granted the same entry rights that St Helena’s residents are to enter the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is important to note that there would be no automatic right to entry rights or citizenship. It is for the Helenian Government to make a determination about anybody who arrives and facilitate their removal.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

How will people be physically removed? How will they get to St Helena? Is accommodation being provided for them on St Helena on their arrival?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Again, we are not anticipating migrants arriving, and this is very much a contingency measure. But should that happen, transport would be provided and they would be accommodated, in line with all the obligations anyone would expect in terms of decency, far better on St Helena, where there is a civilian population and healthcare and education facilities. It is far better there than on BIOT, where no such facilities were available.

Iran (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Iran (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations amend the Iran (Sanctions) Regulations 2023. The instrument was laid before Parliament on 12 September under powers contained in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018. The measures entered into force the following day.

The UK has transformed its use of sanctions. We have deployed sanctions in innovative and impactful ways, including in our response to the threat from the Iranian regime. This instrument contains measures to deter the Government of Iran from causing regional and international instability by disrupting their unmanned aerial vehicles—UAVs—and missile industries, and their access to items critical to military development.

The Iranian regime’s development and proliferation of large volumes of advanced conventional weapons, including UAVs and missiles, continues to destabilise the Middle East and prolong Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. Iran’s use of an unprecedented number of UAVs and missiles during its attack on Israel on 13 April 2024 demonstrated how Iranian weapons development and proliferation is fuelling conflict in the Middle East. The Iranian regime also used hundreds of these arms in its attack on Israel on 1 October, which we condemn in the strongest terms. This attack once more endangered the lives of innocent civilians and escalated an already incredibly dangerous situation. It cannot be tolerated.

In response to Iran’s attack on Israel on 1 October, the UK has designated nine individuals and entities involved in facilitating Iran’s destabilising activity. These include senior military figures and the Iranian Space Agency, which develops technologies that have applications in ballistic missile development. We are deeply concerned about the prospect of further escalation. All efforts must now be on breaking the cycle of violence. At this moment, when tensions are at a peak, calmer heads must prevail. All sides must take immediate steps to de-escalate. A regional war is in no one’s interest.

This is the latest in a long history of Iran destabilising the region, including through its political, financial and military support for its proxies and partners, such as Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis and aligned militia groups in Iraq and Syria. We have been clear that Iran must cease this support.

Iran is now one of Russia’s top military backers; it has supplied Russia with hundreds of UAVs since 2022. Russia has used these to target Ukraine’s critical infrastructure and kill innocent civilians, prolonging the suffering of the Ukrainian people. In September, Iran also supplied Russia with hundreds of close-range ballistic missiles. This is a further escalation of Iran’s military support to Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine and will further enable Russia’s invasion. In return, Iran is receiving Russian military and technological support, enabling it to further develop its military capabilities and enhancing the risk that it poses to the region and beyond.

This legislation expands the UK’s trade sanctions against Iran with the aim of disrupting its UAV and missile industry, as well as its access to items critical to military development. It includes sanctions in relation to items on the Russia common high-priority list. This list was jointly agreed by the UK, the EU, the US and Japan in the context of Russia’s war against Ukraine. It identifies items that Russia is using in its weapons systems, ranging from semiconductors to machine tools.

These items are also significant in Iran’s production of advanced conventional weapons. As the Committee will know, there have been many public reports about Iran’s supply of weapons to Russia. We are therefore prohibiting the export, supply, delivery and making available of these items to Iran through the measures in this instrument. We are also prohibiting the provision of ancillary services associated with the goods, such as brokering services, technical assistance, financial services and funds.

All of the items prohibited by the EU in May have been prohibited by this instrument. In addition, prohibitions will also be applied to some items identified by the Ministry of Defence as significant to Iran’s UAV and missile industries. These trade restrictions complement our existing export controls and sanctions, ensuring that no UK business or person, wherever they are in the world, can facilitate the export, transfer, supply, delivery or making available of these items to Iran without the appropriate licence.

Finally, this Government are committed to enforcement. It is right that we ensure that we have the necessary powers, tools and capacity to implement and enforce our sanctions regimes effectively. That is why, on 10 October, we launched the Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation, with enhanced civil enforcement powers, in order to maximise the impact of the UK’s trade sanctions against Russia. These powers include the abilities to issue civil monetary penalties for breaches and to make details of breaches public. There are also new reporting requirements on sectors well positioned to find evidence of trade sanctions breaches.

To conclude, these new regulations will increase the pressure on Iran’s defence industry. They will disrupt Iran’s production of UAVs and missiles that could be supplied to its proxies in the Middle East or to Russia. We will continue to work with like-minded partners to disrupt, deter and respond to threats from the Iranian regime and to co-ordinate sanctions action. These regulations send a clear message to the Government of Iran and those seeking to harm the UK’s security, as well as that of our partners: we will not stand idle in the face of this aggression. I beg to move.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I totally support these regulations and agree with every word that the Minister has just spoken. The Iran regime is the problem, not the Iranian people. I remind the Committee that two Members of your Lordships’ House are proscribed by the Iranians: me and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, to whom the Minister referred.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the Minister for her kind introduction to this subject. We also fully support these regulations on drones, broader drone technology, financial services, funds and brokering services related to other items of strategic concern; of course, they are one piece of a much larger jigsaw. The Minister commented on the impact of Iran in our previous debate on Russian aggression in Ukraine.

Both the other noble Lords who have spoken outlined graphically how actively and malevolently Iran is undermining the international order through its support for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. While it is tempting to think that these are faraway conflicts, any action by the Houthis in the Gulf has the potential to undermine international shipments of oil, gas and other important commodities, which can affect the economy and well-being of this country. Therefore, it is right that we are targeting further the Iranian regime. We fully support these sanctions.

I lend my support to the point made by my noble friend on the proscription of the IRGC. It is strange that so many Conservative Ministers and MPs were in favour of proscription but never managed to get it through the Foreign Office bureaucracy and now so many Labour Ministers and MP who were previously in favour of proscriptions also do not manage to get it through the FCDO bureaucracy. It makes you wonder whether “Yes Minister” was a commentary or a documentary indicating the true state of affairs with the standing bureaucracy in this country. I know that this is difficult, but political will must win over bureaucratic will. I hope that the Minister can influence the Foreign Secretary to return to his previous views and hers and those of her ministerial colleagues and finally proscribe the IRGC. That would meet with widespread support across both Houses of Parliament and from me and many of my noble friends.

We support the sanctions and hope that the Government have success in implementing them.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I again thank noble Lords for their contributions and support for these measures.

On the IRGC, I note the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, about the frustrations of political life and government. That is all I will say on that line of inquiry. We have already sanctioned the IRGC in its entirety. The separate list of terrorist organisation proscriptions is, as noble Lords know, kept actively under review. We do not routinely comment on whether an organisation is or is not under consideration for proscription. I will leave that there for today.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, makes an important point on Sudan. I will write to him about Sudan, but I point out that when sanctions are applied to Iran, they will affect Iran’s ability to supply Sudan as much as it would Russia. That will be the intention. On the issue of personal property, we have in minds such things as laptops, phones and other personal items. It would be restricted to that. It is right to flag this issue, and we are aware of it, but we felt it was important to include it.

This will apply to UK entities and individuals overseas and anyone who is in the UK. It will not apply any more widely than that. This is how the UK organises its sanctions, as the noble Lord knows. I know that he has long had a very keen interest in the issue of secondary sanctions and how we might engage with them. That is the situation as embodied in these regulations and with regard to the UK’s policy towards sanctions more generally. If I have missed a point there, which I think I may have done, the noble Lord must feel free to come back and help me out.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

It might be my ignorance about how this operates, as it may well be covered elsewhere. I understand that there will be a prohibition on exporting this equipment, but I am not sure that any of it has end-use certificate requirements. Therefore, how will we know if we are sending it to another country which then immediately ships it to Iran? How is that covered?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I will hopefully improve my note-taking as we go on with this. Brokers would be specifically in breach of sanctions were they to facilitate or knowingly support in any way something ending up with Iran. I hope that helps the noble Lord. If he needs any further information, I would be happy to speak to him about it.

These measures represent a step forward in our capability to restrict Iran’s proliferation of advanced conventional weapons, which continue to fuel conflict in the Middle East and support Russia in its illegal war in Ukraine. The UK Government are firmly committed to using sanctions to hold the Iranian regime to account for its malign activities in the UK and elsewhere. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.