Ukraine: North Korean Troops

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is highly likely that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has begun to send troops to Russia. This is a deeply concerning development that risks prolonging the war and augments DPRK’s already significant support to Russia, including munitions and arms that are being used by Russia in its illegal war against Ukraine. This further illustrates Russia’s growing reliance on third-country support and the deepening military co-operation between Russia and DPRK, which has security implications for Europe, the Indo-Pacific and the wider world.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I doubt anybody in NATO would wish to see a shooting war with Russia, far less, God forbid, a nuclear conflict. The aggressor, Putin, threatens the West throughout with dire consequences unknown if there is any escalation of the war, yet he is now apparently bringing in thousands of North Korean troops to assist him, from an ally in the axis of evil. Putin is already waging war against the West. In the UK, Litvinenko was murdered 18 years ago, we had the Salisbury poisonings and only last month we had the warning from Ken McCallum of MI5 about Putin’s intention to disrupt British life. Will the Minister please go back to her colleagues in the department so that we can further assist Ukraine in defeating the aggressor? In particular, will she lobby for allowing Storm Shadow missiles and other weaponry to be used for attacks on Russia, because the best way to maintain peace in Europe is to defeat the aggressor, Putin?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

Before my noble friend responds, this is called Question Time for a reason. We want short, sharp questions.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend the Chief Whip. With absolute respect for the long experience of the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, and the conviction and passion that he brings to his question, there were several points in there. We have discussed Storm Shadow at length in this Chamber. The only person who benefits from us discussing it in this way is Vladimir Putin. I will not say any more than what I have already said on Storm Shadow, but I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that this is further evidence of Russia’s hypocrisy, as he alluded to, its recklessness and its absolute disregard for international peace and security.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, we read and hear a lot about the military pressure Russia is exerting on Ukraine, but are not the increasing numbers of North Koreans involved in the conflict, along with the widening of the pool of prisoners from which Russia seeks to recruit soldiers, evidence that the pressure is far from one-sided? Does this not underscore the importance of sustained resolve on the part of the West?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord is correct, and that is what we will have. We have gone over this ground very many times, but it is always worth repeating that the defence of Ukraine is the defence of Europe. The consequence of the West doing anything other than showing the resolve that the noble and gallant Lord recommends would be to send a deeply worrying message that we fail to stand up to aggressors such as Putin. That must never, ever be something we can tolerate. We stand united in this House, in the country and with our allies.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, part of the pernicious relationship between North Korea and Russia is the supply of military equipment, but the disturbing BRICS summit, which many of our trading allies are currently attending with Putin, means that there are too many countries supplying component parts that can be channelled through North Korea and end up being used on the battlefields of Ukraine against our ally. Will the Minister ask the Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation—a new development that we welcome —to be proactive in ensuring that component parts for military equipment from our trading allies do not end up in Ukraine, and to look at widening our trade sanctions?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Our sanctions regime and the legislation that surrounds it apply to any UK entity, be that in the UK or worldwide, as the noble Lord knows. We will speak to anyone we need to, using any appropriate channels, to try to dissuade others from supplying Russia through whatever means. All anybody supplying Russia with munitions, troops or anything else serves to do, whether they are an ally of ours or not, is prolong this illegal war and the suffering of the people of Ukraine.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we on this side stand united with the noble Baroness and the Government in our support for Ukraine. Yesterday, it was reported in the Daily Telegraph that South Korea could send lethal weapons to Ukraine after North Korean troops land in Russia. Could she therefore confirm whether the Foreign Secretary was privy to any conversations during his recent visit to South Korea about whether it will provide support to Ukraine?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary recently spoke with his counterparts in South Korea and, indeed, in China. Noble Lords can rest assured that he raised at the highest level all the issues we would want him to raise regarding Russia, Ukraine and China.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that if North Korean troops were deployed in Ukraine or North Korean materiel were passed to Russia, that would be a breach of UN Security Council resolutions for which Russia voted in favour?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It would clearly be a breach. It is deeply concerning, and the most recent reports seem to indicate that it is highly likely, hence the deep concern we are expressing at the moment.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)]

The effective control of escalation in this conflict appears to be vital. Can the Minister in any way reassure the House that we are a fundamental part of some international mechanism that assesses escalation risk?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Everything we have done has been with a view to avoiding escalation, because that is the last thing we want to see. However, the reports we have had in recent days are a significant step, and we are deeply concerned. So, our approach will be to discuss the implications of this closely with our partners, as noble Lords would expect.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

Will the Minister please reflect on two points made this week at the All-Party Parliamentary Group on North Korea, which I co-chair? The first was that the young soldier who walked across a minefield in August is representative of many North Koreans who would like to escape from that tyranny. Can we reach over the heads of their armed forces commanders and make sure that they receive messages in Korean, so they know that they are entitled to take up Korean citizenship in the Republic of Korea should they defect? The second point concerns the United Nations commission of inquiry report 10 years ago. It found crimes against humanity by the North Korean regime and called for a referral to the International Criminal Court. That has never been done. When is the United Kingdom going to raise this?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I will give consideration to the last point the noble Lord raised, which is very important. On his point about the young Korean soldier, we have known for a long time that the people of North Korea are not masters of their own destiny and do not make their choices freely and willingly. It is desperately sad that we now seem likely to see further decisions made on their behalf, but not in their interests.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that this very serious recent development reinforces the importance of the UK’s programme for training Ukraine’s troops? Will she give the House an update on that programme?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right: this is an important contribution that we make and will continue to make. It sits alongside measures announced yesterday—the £2.6 billion additional funding for Ukraine, to be supported by interest on seized Russian assets, alongside the £3 billion per year that the UK has committed to for as long as Ukraine needs it.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister said in her initial Answer that she thought that the deployment of North Korean troops would prolong the war. When does she think this war is going to end, with or without the North Koreans?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I only wish I had the answer to that. All I can say is that the way this war ends and the circumstances in which it concludes must be and can only be the decision of the people of Ukraine.

St Helena: UK Immigration

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the following Statement was made in the House of Commons on Monday 21 October:

“The House is aware that a political agreement has been reached with Mauritius about the long-term future of the British Indian Ocean Territory. Once any treaty with Mauritius comes into force, following its proper parliamentary scrutiny, Mauritius will be responsible for any migrants who arrive there. However, we needed to find an interim contingency solution for the period before that agreement comes into force. Given that there is no permanent population, BIOT has never been an appropriate long-term location for migrants due to the logistical challenges of providing appropriate care in such a remote place without civilian infrastructure.

On 15 October, a new memorandum of understanding was reached with the Government of St Helena so that any new migrants arriving in the interim period will be transferred to St Helena. The intention is for that agreement to last until the treaty with Mauritius comes into force, recalling that, in practice, no new migrants have arrived on Diego Garcia since 2022.

We are hugely grateful to the St Helena Government for their assistance. Their Chief Minister has said:

‘This arrangement presents a unique opportunity for a British Overseas Territory to be in a position to assist the UK, and we are pleased to be able to work in close partnership with the UK Government towards a mutually beneficial solution’.


The UK Government have agreed to provide one-off funding of £6.65 million to St Helena to improve health and education outcomes, and upgrade government infrastructure. This is consistent with our long-term support to the community in St Helena, which is of course crucial. This is a long-term, consistent partnership. We will support St Helena by providing technical support and funding the transfer and subsistence costs for any migrants affected. Of course, this is not the first time that St Helena has supported the wider UK family. The agreement is testament to its integral place in our family. We thank it for its support”.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. As noble Lords will remember, the previous Government were often criticised, sometimes justifiably, for making announcements in the media as opposed to making them to Parliament. It was therefore disappointing to see that this announcement was made by briefing to the media before Parliament was briefed on it.

As the noble Baroness said, an agreement was reached with the Government of St Helena. Does that mean that it was reached with the entire Legislative Council of St Helena and the residents who will be affected by this policy? Can the Minister say whether the Government are now in favour of offshoring asylum seekers while their applications are processed?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As to whether the agreement was reached with the entire Legislative Council, we respect the democratic autonomy of St Helena. It is for St Helena to determine what consultation or engagement it wishes to have; it is not for the UK Government to take those decisions on behalf of St Helena, which has the right to take them and has chosen to handle this in this way. The Minister from St Helena’s comment is very clear.

On offshoring, I think the noble Earl is trying to probe how this may or may not relate to the previous Government’s Rwanda programme. Noble Lords will recall that that programme cost £700 million and returned four migrants, voluntarily.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, it is good news that the Government have reached an agreement with Mauritius in principle, although there are of course still concerns about the involvement of the Chagossians in the process. Will any migrant who gets to these territories and is then transferred to St Helena have an opportunity to apply for asylum in this country, given the role we are playing in the interim period before Mauritius takes over its responsibilities? Will the Mauritius agreement be subject to scrutiny by the International Agreements Committee of this House? If so, when is it likely to come before us? Will the Tamil asylum seekers, who were kept in awful conditions on Diego Garcia without a solution being found until recently, be able to seek asylum in this country, even though they may have to transfer elsewhere in the interim? If so, what will be the timescale?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

These are theoretical migrants, as no migrants would be subject to the new agreement with St Helena. It is not an international agreement in the same way that our agreement with Mauritius is; it is an agreement with one of our overseas territories, so it is slightly different. In the very unlikely event that any new migrants arrive in the Chagos Islands, they would be removed to St Helena and it would be for St Helena to process them and make any decisions about their status. It is our position that Diego Garcia is not a suitable place for the current migrants; most have left, as we discussed a couple of weeks ago. They will not be subject to this agreement and will be dealt with separately.

[Baroness Hooper (Con)]

As I was recently in St Helena at a Commonwealth small islands conference, I was shocked to hear about this development. The education, health and other facilities for the small population of the island will be severely stretched. Can the Minister give us some idea of the numbers envisaged and the timescales, given the remoteness of St Helena and the transport difficulties?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I shall endeavour to reassure the noble Baroness, whose care for St Helena is clear in her question. Our hope is that no migrants arrive in the Chagos Islands during the 18 months that this agreement will be in place—it is either for 18 months or until the agreement with Mauritius is ratified, whichever is sooner. We hope that it is much sooner than 18 months and that nobody arrives and needs to be taken to St Helena. However, the noble Baroness is right to say that, regardless of any new migrants, St Helenians face health and education support challenges, and we are providing them with £7 million for that. We would also pay for the transport and subsistence of any new migrants, so we think this agreement is good for St Helena, which is why it has welcomed it so warmly.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, this is a substantial amount of money. Does the Minister agree with me that it could be much better spent on a comprehensive feasibility study of the practicalities of resettling the Chagossians on the outer islands? If that was successful and worked, surely the Sri Lankans currently on Diego Garcia could go to the outer islands.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord rightly says that £6.65 million is a lot of money, but I point out that the previous Government were spending £50 million every year on housing those migrants on Diego Garcia. We think that that is not an appropriate place for them to be, and we are going to work to make sure that they are more appropriately dealt with.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister that Diego Garcia is not an appropriate place to house migrants; indeed, there were returns of Sri Lankans to Sri Lanka. But under the agreement, if people arrive during the 18-month period, what happens to those who are rejected for asylum after the processing takes place on St Helena? Secondly, will those who are entitled to claim asylum in St Helena be granted the same entry rights that St Helena’s residents are to enter the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is important to note that there would be no automatic right to entry rights or citizenship. It is for the Helenian Government to make a determination about anybody who arrives and facilitate their removal.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

How will people be physically removed? How will they get to St Helena? Is accommodation being provided for them on St Helena on their arrival?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Again, we are not anticipating migrants arriving, and this is very much a contingency measure. But should that happen, transport would be provided and they would be accommodated, in line with all the obligations anyone would expect in terms of decency, far better on St Helena, where there is a civilian population and healthcare and education facilities. It is far better there than on BIOT, where no such facilities were available.

Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Regulations laid before the House on 5 and 12 September be approved.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 21 October.

Motions agreed.

Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2024.

Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations amend the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. This instrument was laid on 5 September under powers in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018, and the measures in it entered into force on 6 September as “made affirmative” measures.

In recent years, the UK has transformed its use of sanctions. We have deployed them in innovative and impactful ways, including in our response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. This includes our prohibitions on the legal sector. We take a rigorous approach that is carefully targeted to deter and disrupt malign behaviour, as well as to demonstrate our defence of international norms.

In June 2023, a prohibition on legal advisory services, Regulation 54D, was introduced to prevent UK lawyers providing their services to those seeking to continue trading with Russia in goods or services that the UK had sanctioned. This was a unique prohibition that sought to prevent access to our world-renowned legal services market while retaining and upholding the UK values of access to justice and representational advice. Once introduced, it became clear that the sanction had the unintended effect of preventing the legitimate provision of advice on non-UK sanctions compliance, for instance in advising companies on compliance with US or EU sanctions on Russia. A general licence was therefore rapidly implemented in August 2023 as a temporary fix to enable UK lawyers to continue to provide this advice.

This instrument provides the permanent solution and clarifies in legislation the kinds of legal advice that the Government intend UK lawyers to be able to continue to provide. For example, it ensures that advice can be given on compliance with non-UK sanctions, on Russian counter-sanctions and on global criminal law. Receiving this advice is paramount to the functioning of an effective international sanctions response to Russia.

In amending this legislation, a full and thorough review was undertaken, including engaging with esteemed stakeholders in the legal and financial sectors. This engagement has assured us that this amendment will ensure greater clarity for the sector and continue to support our robust and unwavering commitment to cutting off access to our world-leading legal sector from those wishing to advance the interests of Russia.

The review also highlighted a number of other areas for improvement, which have been reflected in this instrument. They include amending Regulation 54D to align more closely with the way the existing circumvention regulations work, creating greater parity between legal advisory services that can be provided to a UK person and a non-UK person. The amendment clarifies expressly that Regulation 54D covers activity outside the UK, meaning that it more clearly operates alongside the existing circumvention regulations and avoids overlapping offences.

We have worked with the sector to ensure that the language in the instrument is as clear as possible regarding the provision of its services. By ensuring that legal advice can continue to be provided for the purposes of non-UK sanctions compliance, we enhance the effectiveness of the sanctions that the UK and our allies have placed on Russia and intensify the pressure on Putin. As well as ensuring that advice can be given on compliance with non-UK sanctions and on Russian countersanctions, we have ensured that advice can continue to be provided on compliance with global criminal law. By protecting the fundamental right to legal representation, we continue to distinguish ourselves from Putin’s oppressive regime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I too can be brief. These are of course updates and clarifications of sanctions introduced by the previous Government. We were grateful for the support of the Opposition then and, on behalf of the Opposition now, I offer my full support for the changes that the Minister announced. It is important that we maintain the principle of unity across the parties in support of these sanctions and of Ukraine, taking action wherever possible to restrict Russia and its activities across the world. We need to be mindful of the big role that the City of London plays across the world in legal, financial and professional services. Some UK companies are undoubtedly involved in helping the Russians to circumvent these sanctions. We fully support the strictest clampdown on these activities. We should be very proud of these industries, but they should be used for right, not for helping Russia in this regard.

Following the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, I offer my support for the letter from Sir Iain Duncan Smith to the Foreign Secretary. We support these sanctions but ask the Government to look again at what more can be done to clamp down on the shadow fleet of tankers that Russia is using to spread its oil and gas around the world. As the noble Lord said, I do not expect the Minister to reply now to a letter that was sent only today and probably has not been received yet, but I hope that the Government can bear this in mind and can possibly give us an answer on Friday. We fully support these sanctions.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the support of the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Callanan. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, in particular, for his ongoing—I will put it that way—interest in this issue. I very much welcome the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, on how vital it is that we keep our unity on these issues intact as we move forward. I am grateful and pleased that this is what we have seen today.

On the specific issue about the natural gas tankers, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their forbearance, as I do not have a full response on this today. The insurance is a complex issue. I will endeavour to get a fuller response by Friday. That is not a guarantee but, if I cannot get it by Friday, we will make sure that there is a response to the letter from Mr Duncan Smith.

I will do what I believe is called a pivot, to liquified natural gas more generally. I point out—because it is quite interesting and helpful, although it does not address the issue of insurance head-on—that Novatek, Russia’s largest producer of LNG, suspended production at its flagship Arctic project in April 2024 because of sanctions and a shortage of specialist tankers. This project is critical to Russia’s ambition to triple LNG production by the end of the decade, so we are taking measures that are having some effect on LNG. However, I will come back to noble Lords on the wider issue of insurance.

Motion agreed.

Iran (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Iran (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations amend the Iran (Sanctions) Regulations 2023. The instrument was laid before Parliament on 12 September under powers contained in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018. The measures entered into force the following day.

The UK has transformed its use of sanctions. We have deployed sanctions in innovative and impactful ways, including in our response to the threat from the Iranian regime. This instrument contains measures to deter the Government of Iran from causing regional and international instability by disrupting their unmanned aerial vehicles—UAVs—and missile industries, and their access to items critical to military development.

The Iranian regime’s development and proliferation of large volumes of advanced conventional weapons, including UAVs and missiles, continues to destabilise the Middle East and prolong Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. Iran’s use of an unprecedented number of UAVs and missiles during its attack on Israel on 13 April 2024 demonstrated how Iranian weapons development and proliferation is fuelling conflict in the Middle East. The Iranian regime also used hundreds of these arms in its attack on Israel on 1 October, which we condemn in the strongest terms. This attack once more endangered the lives of innocent civilians and escalated an already incredibly dangerous situation. It cannot be tolerated.

In response to Iran’s attack on Israel on 1 October, the UK has designated nine individuals and entities involved in facilitating Iran’s destabilising activity. These include senior military figures and the Iranian Space Agency, which develops technologies that have applications in ballistic missile development. We are deeply concerned about the prospect of further escalation. All efforts must now be on breaking the cycle of violence. At this moment, when tensions are at a peak, calmer heads must prevail. All sides must take immediate steps to de-escalate. A regional war is in no one’s interest.

This is the latest in a long history of Iran destabilising the region, including through its political, financial and military support for its proxies and partners, such as Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis and aligned militia groups in Iraq and Syria. We have been clear that Iran must cease this support.

Iran is now one of Russia’s top military backers; it has supplied Russia with hundreds of UAVs since 2022. Russia has used these to target Ukraine’s critical infrastructure and kill innocent civilians, prolonging the suffering of the Ukrainian people. In September, Iran also supplied Russia with hundreds of close-range ballistic missiles. This is a further escalation of Iran’s military support to Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine and will further enable Russia’s invasion. In return, Iran is receiving Russian military and technological support, enabling it to further develop its military capabilities and enhancing the risk that it poses to the region and beyond.

This legislation expands the UK’s trade sanctions against Iran with the aim of disrupting its UAV and missile industry, as well as its access to items critical to military development. It includes sanctions in relation to items on the Russia common high-priority list. This list was jointly agreed by the UK, the EU, the US and Japan in the context of Russia’s war against Ukraine. It identifies items that Russia is using in its weapons systems, ranging from semiconductors to machine tools.

These items are also significant in Iran’s production of advanced conventional weapons. As the Committee will know, there have been many public reports about Iran’s supply of weapons to Russia. We are therefore prohibiting the export, supply, delivery and making available of these items to Iran through the measures in this instrument. We are also prohibiting the provision of ancillary services associated with the goods, such as brokering services, technical assistance, financial services and funds.

All of the items prohibited by the EU in May have been prohibited by this instrument. In addition, prohibitions will also be applied to some items identified by the Ministry of Defence as significant to Iran’s UAV and missile industries. These trade restrictions complement our existing export controls and sanctions, ensuring that no UK business or person, wherever they are in the world, can facilitate the export, transfer, supply, delivery or making available of these items to Iran without the appropriate licence.

Finally, this Government are committed to enforcement. It is right that we ensure that we have the necessary powers, tools and capacity to implement and enforce our sanctions regimes effectively. That is why, on 10 October, we launched the Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation, with enhanced civil enforcement powers, in order to maximise the impact of the UK’s trade sanctions against Russia. These powers include the abilities to issue civil monetary penalties for breaches and to make details of breaches public. There are also new reporting requirements on sectors well positioned to find evidence of trade sanctions breaches.

To conclude, these new regulations will increase the pressure on Iran’s defence industry. They will disrupt Iran’s production of UAVs and missiles that could be supplied to its proxies in the Middle East or to Russia. We will continue to work with like-minded partners to disrupt, deter and respond to threats from the Iranian regime and to co-ordinate sanctions action. These regulations send a clear message to the Government of Iran and those seeking to harm the UK’s security, as well as that of our partners: we will not stand idle in the face of this aggression. I beg to move.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I totally support these regulations and agree with every word that the Minister has just spoken. The Iran regime is the problem, not the Iranian people. I remind the Committee that two Members of your Lordships’ House are proscribed by the Iranians: me and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, to whom the Minister referred.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the Minister for her kind introduction to this subject. We also fully support these regulations on drones, broader drone technology, financial services, funds and brokering services related to other items of strategic concern; of course, they are one piece of a much larger jigsaw. The Minister commented on the impact of Iran in our previous debate on Russian aggression in Ukraine.

Both the other noble Lords who have spoken outlined graphically how actively and malevolently Iran is undermining the international order through its support for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. While it is tempting to think that these are faraway conflicts, any action by the Houthis in the Gulf has the potential to undermine international shipments of oil, gas and other important commodities, which can affect the economy and well-being of this country. Therefore, it is right that we are targeting further the Iranian regime. We fully support these sanctions.

I lend my support to the point made by my noble friend on the proscription of the IRGC. It is strange that so many Conservative Ministers and MPs were in favour of proscription but never managed to get it through the Foreign Office bureaucracy and now so many Labour Ministers and MP who were previously in favour of proscriptions also do not manage to get it through the FCDO bureaucracy. It makes you wonder whether “Yes Minister” was a commentary or a documentary indicating the true state of affairs with the standing bureaucracy in this country. I know that this is difficult, but political will must win over bureaucratic will. I hope that the Minister can influence the Foreign Secretary to return to his previous views and hers and those of her ministerial colleagues and finally proscribe the IRGC. That would meet with widespread support across both Houses of Parliament and from me and many of my noble friends.

We support the sanctions and hope that the Government have success in implementing them.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I again thank noble Lords for their contributions and support for these measures.

On the IRGC, I note the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, about the frustrations of political life and government. That is all I will say on that line of inquiry. We have already sanctioned the IRGC in its entirety. The separate list of terrorist organisation proscriptions is, as noble Lords know, kept actively under review. We do not routinely comment on whether an organisation is or is not under consideration for proscription. I will leave that there for today.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, makes an important point on Sudan. I will write to him about Sudan, but I point out that when sanctions are applied to Iran, they will affect Iran’s ability to supply Sudan as much as it would Russia. That will be the intention. On the issue of personal property, we have in minds such things as laptops, phones and other personal items. It would be restricted to that. It is right to flag this issue, and we are aware of it, but we felt it was important to include it.

This will apply to UK entities and individuals overseas and anyone who is in the UK. It will not apply any more widely than that. This is how the UK organises its sanctions, as the noble Lord knows. I know that he has long had a very keen interest in the issue of secondary sanctions and how we might engage with them. That is the situation as embodied in these regulations and with regard to the UK’s policy towards sanctions more generally. If I have missed a point there, which I think I may have done, the noble Lord must feel free to come back and help me out.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

It might be my ignorance about how this operates, as it may well be covered elsewhere. I understand that there will be a prohibition on exporting this equipment, but I am not sure that any of it has end-use certificate requirements. Therefore, how will we know if we are sending it to another country which then immediately ships it to Iran? How is that covered?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I will hopefully improve my note-taking as we go on with this. Brokers would be specifically in breach of sanctions were they to facilitate or knowingly support in any way something ending up with Iran. I hope that helps the noble Lord. If he needs any further information, I would be happy to speak to him about it.

These measures represent a step forward in our capability to restrict Iran’s proliferation of advanced conventional weapons, which continue to fuel conflict in the Middle East and support Russia in its illegal war in Ukraine. The UK Government are firmly committed to using sanctions to hold the Iranian regime to account for its malign activities in the UK and elsewhere. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Somaliland

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what consideration they are giving to recognising Somaliland as an independent nation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK, alongside others in the international community, does not recognise Somaliland’s unilateral declaration of independence. The settlement of Somaliland’s status is an issue for Somalia, including Somaliland, to decide through a consultative process and dialogue.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, but does she realise that since 1991 Somaliland has had six democratic elections, observes the rule of law, has religious tolerance and is a haven of piece in that awful area of the Horn of Africa? Why will His Majesty’s Government not recognise that we must support and encourage democracy around the world, particularly in Africa where we give money to some appalling regimes such as Zimbabwe? Surely this is a time for the Government to face up to the fact that, like other countries, such as France, we should recognise Somaliland now.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right in her strong support for Somaliland, but that does not change our position on the question of recognition of Somaliland as an independent state. She is right, and we have a very long-standing and deep relationship with Somaliland, not least because of the large number of Somalis living here in the UK, but also our support for the port there, for health, education, security and in many other ways. We are very pleased to continue that relationship.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, are we sure that we have got this completely right? I remember 10 years ago at the Foreign Office having to give exactly the same answers about this as the Minister has given now. On reflection, and in totally changed conditions, particularly in the Middle East and in east Africa, surely those new considerations come in. Why do we have to wait for every other nation to recognise and help Somaliland? It is an extremely feisty country, if I might use that word. It is quite well run and passionately pro-British. It would do us enormous help to have a good friend in that very sensitive area, with the Chinese pouring in next door. It makes utter sense for our own foreign policy to think about this positively. Would the Minister take it back to the Foreign Office and ask it to think again?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Well, I am very pleased to provide consistency in the Government’s approach. The UK needs to tread carefully in the Horn of Africa in regard to this, given the situation that the noble Lord has just described. We have strong links; we have a permanent diplomatic presence in Somaliland. But my sense is that it would not be the right thing to do for stability in the wider region to wade in and take such an action at this time.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, given that Ethiopia has recognised Somaliland in return for Red Sea access, and Egypt has signed a military and security defence arrangement with Somalia, and with Ethiopian troops currently in Somalia, I believe caution is justified. The UK was the lead funder for the African Union peacekeeping mission in this area in Somalia against Al-Shabaab. Is it not in the UK’s key strategic interests that we restore the funding for the new mission, whose mandate will be renewed at the end of this year, to ensure that Al-Shabaab does not benefit from the tension and standoff between Somaliland, Somalia, Ethiopia and Egypt?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding us just how complex this situation is. We have to keep in mind where Ethiopia, Egypt, Somalia and Eritrea are—this is somewhere where you do not take rash decisions. We are committed to making sure that the fight to combat Al-Shabaab is taken forward and we will play our role in that, as the noble Lord would expect.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, reinforcing what the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, just said about the importance of keeping the battle against Al-Shabaab at the top of our priorities, and bearing in mind what has already happened in the Horn of Africa—not least in Tigray—are the Government not right to proceed with caution? Can the Minister tell us whether she is in discussion with members of the African Union to discover what their views are about this? Will she also bear in mind that independence in the case of South Sudan has hardly led to peace in that troubled part of the continent?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are desperately worried about what is happening in South Sudan. Minister Anneliese Dodds has visited there very recently. We will be keeping this at the front of our minds. As I said earlier in the week when these matters were discussed, my noble friend Lord Collins has been in Ethiopia in the last few days, and the noble Lord is right to urge caution and wisdom at all times in this.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, can I also urge caution on this matter? It has wider implications for places like Ukraine. Any decision made here must take into account the wider implications that will remain if a change is made.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord has summarised what I have tried to say very well, and I thank him for that.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for bringing this matter to the attention of the House. It is an important issue. As the Minister said, stability in the region is paramount. She also mentioned the influence of the African Union. We have to take this matter further and encourage dialogue between the parties themselves so that sovereignty can be recognised for Somaliland. Can the Minister comment on ways of persuading the parties to this disagreement to come to the table and come to an agreement?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl for the approach he has taken to this topic. It is our role to encourage dialogue, but I do not think it is our role to specify what the outcome should be, so that is the approach that we will continue to take.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am deeply concerned about the implications of some of the questions being put to my noble friend. My suspicion is that some Members clearly have an appreciation of just how near war in the Horn of Africa is and how many moving parts are already out of our control. Perhaps the Government could find time for us to have a debate in government time on the Horn of Africa so that people can fully understand just how much on the verge of war this area is and why asking questions in this House that are consistent with our long-term interest in the possibility of stopping a war would help because some of these questions will undermine our attempts to stop the war.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My noble friend makes an important point. He is a far more experienced parliamentarian than me, and I am sure that he is able to navigate the powers that be to enable such an opportunity, which I would very much welcome.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

Is the Minister satisfied that the UK is marshalling its soft power in a sufficiently coherent way to promote stability and combat malign influences throughout the Horn of Africa?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is an important question, and I will consider it further. I think we sometimes underestimate the impact soft power can have. We are well placed to act in that way, given our historical links and the community in the UK. If the noble and gallant Lord does not mind, I will take that away and give it further consideration.

British Indian Ocean Territory: Negotiations

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, these Benches believe that the UK has a very special responsibility for the overseas territories and the people who live within them. There should be a fundamental principle that nothing should be decided about them without them. Their participation, and ultimately their consent, is of the greatest importance. I hope that the Minister will agree with that.

It has been interesting to see this suddenly becoming a highly party-political issue. The overseas territories and their sovereignty were not part of a negotiating mandate with the European Union after Brexit, for example. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was the Minister at the time. When it came to consideration for the overseas territories and their sovereignty in our key relationship with the European Union, the Falkland Islands were excluded. That has meant that they have been paying £15 million in tariffs to land fishing, critical for not only the economy but the sustainability and the sovereignty of the islands. Therefore, some vessels from the Falkland Islands have to be flagged as Spanish in order to access the single market, something that my party leader, Sir Ed Davey, challenged the Prime Minister on. I hope that we can correct this as a result of the previous Government’s omission with the OTs.

On Gibraltar, the prospect of the EU frontier force, FRONTEX, being at the border entry point into the United Kingdom is a result of the previous Government not including sovereignty of the OTs as part of a negotiation mandate. Both the Falkland Islands Government and the Gibraltar Government warned the previous Government of the consequences, and now this Government have to correct those errors.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, said yesterday that the issue of the Chagos Islands’ sovereignty was a non-starter. It apparently took 11 rounds of negotiations for the previous Government to decide that it was a non-starter before the general election. A cynic might think that the previous Government knew that there would have to be some tough decisions on the Falklands for fishing, Gibraltar for EU security and Chagos for international law and thought that this was probably best left to their successors in government.

The Minister said yesterday in response to my question that there was not one Chagossian voice. If that were the case, the need for their participation and consent in the process going forward is critical. The House is well aware of my views on the deficiencies of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act on treaty ratification in previous times. Labour, in opposition, had supported calls for resolutions on potential treaty areas which were of concern for human rights. The previous Government resisted this; I welcome the U-turn of the Conservative Party in now calling for a resolution on a treaty. I tried 17 times to call for Motions on treaties, which were resisted by the previous Government, so I hope that there will be consensus on this.

Perhaps the Minister will respond to some specific points. First, how will the financing with regard to the Chagossians’ relocation work, and what will be the timetable? How will location and relocation mechanisms be put in place and over what timeframe? Finally, regarding the Minister’s reply to me yesterday on primary legislation, what is the extent of that legislation, and will the Government commit to ensuring that the Long Title is sufficiently flexible for there to be scrutiny of the wider impacts? Of course there are geopolitical impacts; therefore, the timing of this decision, the treaty and the legislation, linked with the strategic defence review, are critical, as well as the ability for Parliament to resolve that the voice of the Chagossians will be heard and that consent will be a critical part of it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Purvis of Tweed and Lord Callanan, for their remarks. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, asked me to clarify who is right—me or the Foreign Secretary. All I can say is that it certainly is not the noble Lord. I am surprised at the lack of background work that he has been able to do on this topic between yesterday and today, because a few things in his contribution were factually incorrect.

On the reaction of the Americans, President Biden has applauded the statement that we made; he calls the agreement “historic” and says that it

“secures the effective operation of the joint facility on Diego Garcia into the next century”.

I would rather take his assessment of the deal that we have just done than that of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan —with all respect.

On parliamentary scrutiny, as I tried to outline yesterday, but obviously in the context of a Question I perhaps could have gone further, there will be the CRaG process to which the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, referred. There will also be primary legislation, and this will be implementing legislation. I do not know what the Long Title of that legislation will be, but I take on board the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis—but that will be to amend other legislation, which we need to do to implement the treaty. There will be an opportunity between signing and ratifying the treaty for both Houses to debate it.

On funding, we do not disclose the costs of bases overseas. One of the researchers of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, has found that there are some costings from the MoD on the sovereign base in Cyprus. There are many costs of running a base, but we do not pay for the privilege of running the base in Cyprus—the noble Lord ought to know this. There are additional costs around facilities and other things that we will be able to share, including on the base in Diego Garcia, but the basing costs that we will pay to Mauritius are completely separate. We do not disclose them, and we will not be disclosing them.

The issue of China came up yesterday. I am very sad about this, because when we were in opposition, we took great pride in how we approached issues of foreign policy. There were opportunities to make mischief, but we stood shoulder to shoulder with the Government whenever we could, and it saddens me that in the context of a Conservative leadership contest the opportunity is taken to play fast and loose, to play political games, on some of these issues. Not every concern that is raised falls into that category, but unfortunately some of them have.

Mauritius is not, as some in the Conservative Party have suggested, in hoc to China. It is not part of the belt and road initiative; it is one of only two African countries not to be. It is an ally of India, and India too, as well as the African Union, has welcomed the clarity that this deal provides. The Foreign Secretary will make further announcements on the financial support for Chagossians, which noble Lords were quite right to ask about, when the treaty is signed. That is an important element; it is not about the treaty—it is something that the UK is deciding to do, because they have been shockingly treated for many decades. The sad truth—and this is not something that any of us in this Chamber will be pleased to know—is that those islands are uninhabited but for the military personnel, and in that situation the right to self-determination enjoyed by the Falkland Islanders and Gibraltarians is very different. The circumstances that have led to this are sad and shameful, but that is the situation in which we find ourselves today.

I am very happy to take any questions on this matter, but it is important that we stay focused on the primary purpose of this negotiation—that is, the same thing that drove the last Government to have 11 rounds of negotiation—which is to secure this base, which is really important for security in the Indian Ocean. That is the motivation; it is why we wanted to get the deal done, and it is why the Americans are so pleased that it has been done.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, we now have 20 minutes of Back-Bench questions. To get as many Back-Bench Members in as possible, we need short, succinct and to-the-point questions and not speeches.

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on reaching this agreement, and I congratulate the last Government on initiating the negotiations for it. They right a long-standing wrong. As the Minister has said, we await the details of the agreement, but can she assure us that the Government will continue discussions and negotiations with the Government of Mauritius about the implementation of the agreement, including the risk of any entryism by China?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is an important question from the noble Lord. Yes, the agreement will mean that it will not be possible for other foreign states to operate from the other islands, which has been raised as a concern.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, to cut to the chase, the Government took the only sensible strategic path as regards this decision. To do otherwise, especially in view of the covetous eyes referred to by my noble friend Lord West, would have been to put at risk our control of Diego Garcia and, with that, our national security and defence. It is about time that the previous Government faced up to the reality in opposition —which they faced up to when they were in government, to be fair—and that reality is that the International Court of Justice, by a majority of 13 to one, found that the 1965 secession of these islands from Mauritius was unlawful. Certainly, that was advisory, but it was followed by a decision at the United Nations General Assembly of 116 to six welcoming that judgment, making it extremely likely there would be a further judgment far more stringent than the previous one. So the Government have taken the decision—in my view, a right one—to put the national security and interests of this country before everything else.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My noble friend is completely right. On this issue of the legalities, which I am sure will come up, we had a choice. We could wait for the legal tide to come in still further and have rulings that were binding made against us. In that situation, we would be negotiating from a position of particular weakness, we felt, so it was much better to get ahead and get this deal done before we reached that circumstance.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has not answered an important question which my noble friend asked. Does the agreement give the United Kingdom an absolute right to extend the lease at the end of the 99 years, or is it just a right to ask for renewal? That is very different. Which is it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the treaty will be published very soon, and we will have a chance to properly test it according to the things that are of concern to the noble Lord. I suggest that we wait for the treaty to be scrubbed and printed so that we can all satisfy ourselves about the precise nature of what has been agreed.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, it is very important that this House remembers that both major parties were seriously guilty of the most appalling behaviour towards the Chagossians. When I was a member of the Court of Appeal, under the then Conservative Government, we were not able to help the Chagossians, but we gave a judgment that absolutely excoriated them, quite correctly. But, equally, a Labour Government behaved in exactly the same way. But my question to the Minister is: are the Government satisfied that China is not a real danger?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are watchful; of course we are. But there is nothing in this treaty, however, that leads us to have the kind of concern that has been alluded to. As I have said, the treaty would prevent not just China but any other foreign nation from undertaking activities on the other islands other than Diego Garcia.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, the expulsions were a major blot on our latter colonial history. But those expelled are now living in exile, and many of them are settled and have got used to the countries where they are. Are the Government concerned that there is a certain romanticism about the idea of returning to these islands—particularly for the children and grandchildren who have never seen them and have got used to the good life elsewhere—and that many of those with that romantic view might return only for a brief period before returning to their places of exile?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I think it is very important that we allow Chagossians, whether they are first generation or grandchildren, to decide for themselves how they feel about that. They will have the ability to return and they will also have the ability to visit Diego Garcia. I am reminded of a question from the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, about visits. He probably does not realise, but visits to Diego Garcia were taking place before Covid. There was then a pause and they have not restarted since then, so this is not the first time this has happened. The intention is for visits to Diego Garcia to be able to take place in the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I join others in the congratulations on the partial addressing of this gross humanitarian injustice. I congratulate the previous Government for initiating and the present Government for concluding the treaty. Has the Minister had to deal with completely unnecessary alarm, created in Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands, by the hypocritical noises that have come out of the Opposition Benches? Have the Government been able to completely address those unnecessary concerns?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have been disappointed, as I said in my earlier remarks. We would not have played political games with the sovereignty of our overseas territories, but we have been able to offer the reassurances that were needed. We have been in close contact with the Governments in both Gibraltar and the Falklands, and I think they understand what is really going on here. I hope we have been able to offer the assurances that the noble Baroness refers to.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, in relation to the lease, will His Majesty’s Government bear in mind that Gan, in the Maldives, is a vital defence dimension, as is Hambantota, in Sri Lanka? Those are both owned, in a sense, by the Chinese, and it is a very dangerous situation if the lease can be broken at any point.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

One of the reasons that it took so long to get this deal over the line was because of concerns such as that, and wanting to make sure that the 99 years are fixed and firm, and it is never up for question in the way that the noble Lord describes. He is quite right to raise those concerns.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

On the security question and the Chinese issue, does the Minister agree that the United States Administration are in quite a good place to assess the security of the base in Diego Garcia? Will she again confirm that they have warmly welcomed the agreement? I was always less diplomatic than the noble Lord, Lord Jay. Would the Minister like to confirm that it takes chutzpah verging on hypocrisy for the Opposition Front Bench, populated by the luminaries of the last Government, to criticise an agreement negotiated with the support and under the supervision of the last two Conservative Foreign Secretaries and approved by the last Conservative Foreign Secretary? For them to criticise it now seems to me to be—well, I will settle for chutzpah.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have said my piece on what I think of the way the Opposition has been handling this. It is true that President Biden, Secretary Blinken and Secretary Austin have all welcomed this agreement in terms that they really did not need to use if they were not so concerned to see the security of the base at Diego Garcia. I am glad that we have managed to secure the base; it is important for regional, and indeed global, security. I will leave others to reach their own conclusions about the way that the Conservative Party is approaching this.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, leaving aside, as I noted yesterday, the fact that the whole of Diego Garcia will remain out of bounds to Chagossians, the Statement says that Mauritius will now be free to implement a resettlement programme to the other islands. It does not say explicitly that Chagossians will have a right to resettlement. Can my noble friend the Minister now confirm that they will have such a right?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

There will be a right to visit Diego Garcia, and it is important that we recognise that. The details of what Mauritius will agree on the rest of the islands will be included in the treaty. However, at this stage, it is the intention that those islands will be able to be reinhabited by Chagossians if that is what they wish to do.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The Green Party welcomes the ending, finally, of UK colonialism in Africa, although it regrets deeply that the Chagossian people, who were so shamefully and secretively dispossessed as late as the early 1970s, were not involved in the talks with Mauritius. The UK has benefited over decades from holding on to this colonial possession. Can the Minister assure me that the UK will continue to provide support and resources to Mauritius to protect the magnificent, unique and irreplaceable marine and coastal habitats of the Chagos archipelago after the handover?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The security of the marine conservation area is very important; I think it was Foreign Secretary Miliband who instigated it. We will see it continue, and Mauritius has agreed to that.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, Mauritius was paid the then immense sum of £3 million in exchange for this agreement in 1965, and treated it as a final settlement. In 1972 it was then paid again, if memory serves, £620,000 for the resettlement of the Chagossians—moneys which I am afraid it hung on to until their value had been eroded by inflation, which may explain why Chagossians are not enthusiastic about Mauritian sovereignty. It does seem extraordinary that we have given away this prime strategic location, the so-called Malta of the Indian Ocean, not only for nothing but somehow managing to pay for the privilege. I think I have heard three or four Ministers today talk about this black hole. Is it really credible, when we are hearing about that, that the Government will not disclose either what we are paying to the Mauritians or what we are putting in the fund for Chagossian resettlement?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I did not say that we would not disclose what we are putting in the fund for Chagossian resettlement; I said that the Foreign Secretary will make a more detailed statement at the time that the treaty is signed. We do not disclose the costs of basing overseas. We do not, and I do not think other nations do, either. We are very clear about that. We do disclose some of the associated costs; the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, mistakenly tried to make an equivalence between the two, but we will not be disclosing the costs of basing.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

When James Cleverly announced the Conservative Government’s policy of negotiations with Mauritius, one outlying MP, who has since lost his seat, under the banner of the anxiety of a small group among all other Chagossians, asserted that colonial ownership of the so-called British Indian Ocean Territory was better than the decision of concerted international and much British opinion on the rights of this long-running injustice. The agreement preserves the long-standing UK/US base on Diego Garcia. Do the Opposition not want that to be funded? It is mysterious to me why, all of a sudden, this furore has erupted.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Baroness puts it very well and I think she does know why this furore may have erupted. I have said all I need to say about my views on that.

[Lord McDonald of Salford (CB)]

Like other noble Lords, I congratulate the Labour Government on finishing what the Conservative Government started. I will ask the Minister two questions. Would the Mauritian Government pay for any repatriation scheme to the islands, and can the Minister confirm that this treaty is compatible with existing other relevant treaties, such as the Treaty of Pelindaba?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Yes; we are not party to that particular treaty, as the noble Lord probably knows, but we are party to some of its annexes. And I can confirm that this treaty is compatible with all our other international obligations.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the Cyprus sovereign bases. Surely the reason why we do not pay rent to Cyprus is that those bases were granted in perpetuity as sovereign base areas. If you lease a base, you pay rent, presumably. Can she tell the House why the Government did not hold out for a similar arrangement with Diego Garcia? Can she also tell the House what will happen if the Government of Mauritius under Pravind Jugnauth fall and they want to reopen the discussions?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The treaty will be legally binding and that is the basis on which we proceed. As to why we did not hold out to get a better deal, there had been quite a lot of holding out and we needed to get this resolved. The noble Lord outlined quite well the difference between Cyprus and the circumstances on Diego Garcia. As he explained— I think he answered his own question—these are very different circumstances.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, can I press the Minister further on the response she gave on the Chagos marine protected area? It is one of the world’s largest and richest officially designated areas and my understanding is that its status will be transferred to that of a Mauritius marine protected area, which is not a serious conservation status. The Mauritius Government have got neither the resources nor the expertise—nor indeed the political clout—to protect that area adequately against the adverse fishing impacts that nearly destroyed it until Foreign Secretary Miliband got the protection arrangements for it. Indeed, one of the reasons Mauritius wants access to the Chagos archipelago is in order to recommence fishing. Can the Minister tell us what safeguards are going to be put in place so that we are not regarded by future generations as having handed childcare over to Herod?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I should probably have been clear about this earlier, but the detail will be in the treaty for noble Lords to see for themselves. The UK will be co-operating alongside Mauritius to make sure that the marine protected area is secure.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on rushing ministerial decisions, when I was first appointed to the Foreign Office in 2017, as the noble Lord, Lord McDonald, will recall, my first meeting was on BIOT, and what the previous Government did was careful consideration in negotiations with Mauritius about what was possible and what was not. And repeatedly it was concluded that the issue of sovereignty was a sticking point for security. My question is a simple one. We engaged at the very top at prime ministerial level on negotiations, so I ask the Minister, what level of negotiation took place before this key decision was taken?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

A fair point. Discussions did take place between our Prime Minister and the Prime Minister in Mauritius.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it has been refreshing to hear the Minister be quite pragmatic in her explanation about what has occurred. Does she agree that it is unhelpful when some Ministers pose this as some kind of heroic anti-colonial victory? And how does she feel about the fact that Chagossian voices feel as though they have been treated with contempt, especially when their aspirations for self-determination are written off as romantic and naive? There is a sense of betrayal. How will she tackle that?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My feelings are neither here nor there. No Government or political party, including my party, have covered themselves in glory on this issue in recent decades and there is no point pretending otherwise—but find a solution and get a deal we must, and that is what we have done. We have prioritised security and the base, and we have done the best we can to get the right to return for some Chagossians and the right to visit Diego Garcia. This is not a situation that is going to please everybody—that option was not open to us—but we have managed to get the security outcome that we wanted.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister earlier explained that the reason why the Chagossians did not have the right to self-determination was that the islands are uninhabited. That seems to rather ignore the reason for the islands being uninhabited. Surely it is right that the Chagossians should have a meaningful say in their own future in this respect.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I was talking about where we stand legally in that regard, but morally the noble Lord is completely right. The forced removal of the Chagossians at that time was shameful, but we are where we are and we cannot pretend otherwise. But for military personnel, these islands have been uninhabited for a very long time. That does not mean that we should not respect and listen and do the very best we can by the Chagossian communities, whether they are here, in Mauritius or elsewhere—many are in the Seychelles. It is not the outcome that every Chagossian would have wanted, but it is better than the situation that they currently have.

Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [HL]

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Collins of Highbury, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. As I said during—

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Beith) (LD)]

This is not the moment for a speech.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

With trepidation, I ask whether now is the moment for a speech. I believe it is.

As I said during Second Reading in July, this is an important Bill which provides two significant organisations with a long-awaited change in their legal status. I again pay tribute to noble Lords across all sides of the House, including the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, for his continued support and dedication in seeing this Bill through. The Bill has received unwavering support in both this parliamentary Session and the last, demonstrated by the fact that no amendments were tabled ahead of Committee in September. This is a true testament to the value that all noble Lords place on the aims of this Bill.

It is critical that both the CPA and the ICRC are given the correct status in UK legislation so that they can conduct their work and deliver their objectives while operating in the UK. This will guarantee that the CPA remains headquartered in the UK, and that the UK is able to give the ICRC the guarantee that the information it shares with the UK Government is secure and protected.

The UK is deeply committed to the Commonwealth and believes that the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting which commences in Samoa later this month will be an important opportunity to mobilise action on shared interests, including upholding Commonwealth values—values which are embodied by the CPA’s important work in strengthening inclusive and accountable democracy across the Commonwealth. The UK’s long-standing programme partnership with the CPA is testament to the organisation’s value. Treating the CPA as an international organisation will allow it to continue to operate fully across the Commonwealth and international fora, and to participate fully in areas where it is currently restricted, including signing up to international statements and communiques.

The ICRC is an essential partner for achieving the UK’s global humanitarian objectives. It has a unique mandate from states to uphold the Geneva conventions and works globally to promote international humanitarian law. It has a unique legitimacy to engage all parties to conflicts, and has unparalleled access to vulnerable groups in conflict situations. The ICRC is frequently the only international agency operating at scale in many conflicts. It is therefore critical to enable it to operate in the UK in accordance with its international mandate, maintaining its strict adherence to the principles of neutrality, impartiality and independence, and its working method of confidentiality.

Officials will work closely with the CPA and the ICRC to agree written arrangements, setting out the parameters of the status change as well as the privileges and immunities which the Government have decided to confer on both organisations. These arrangements will then be implemented by secondary legislation. Privileges and immunities will be based on functional need, and other facilities and the relevant exemptions and limitations will be specified in the Order in Council. Once again I assure noble Lords that any Order in Council made under Clauses 1 and 2 will be subject to the draft affirmative parliamentary procedure. This means that both Houses will get the opportunity to debate and approve them.

I thank all noble Lords for their continued support and useful contributions throughout the passage of this Bill. Like many others, I look forward to seeing it progress in the other place, where I am sure it will receive the same unanimous support. Finally, I pay tribute to the FCDO policy officials and lawyers, whose efforts in both this parliamentary Session and under the previous Government have contributed to making the Bill happen. I also extend my gratitude to the drafters in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel for preparing the Bill.

[Baroness D'Souza (CB)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Government for their speedy and decisive actions, without which the Bill may have lingered for a little too long. The Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting is coming up shortly, and it will be a great pleasure for those involved to announce the acceptance of the Bill. Had it not been accepted, there would have been some rather serious threats to the position of both the ICRC and the CPA within the UK. So my thanks are due.

British Indian Ocean Territory

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the implications for the United Kingdom’s strategic relationship with the United States of America of the decision to cede sovereignty of the British Indian Ocean Territory to Mauritius.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, on 3 October, the UK and Mauritius reached an historic political agreement that will ensure the operational effectiveness of the joint US-UK military base on Diego Garcia well into the next century. Throughout the negotiations we have worked in lockstep with the US, and this agreement is strongly supported by the US. President Biden issued a statement applauding it within minutes of its announcement. Secretary Austin and Secretary Blinken have also voiced clear public support.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I did not fully appreciate the strategic value of Diego Garcia until I visited it in 2019 in my capacity as Minister for the Armed Forces. Yesterday, the Foreign Secretary said that there would be “robust security arrangements” to prevent other nations occupying the outer islands. Of course, the best way to do this would be to maintain sovereignty. Short of this, are we simply relying on other nations to follow the international rules-based order? We need look only at what the Chinese have done on the disputed Spratly Islands to realise that this would be naive. I simply ask: what is the rush? My understanding is that we are in such a rush that no Minister has even had the opportunity to go to Diego Garcia. Can the Minister confirm that that is not the case?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the easiest way to put this is that there is no easy time to make this kind of decision. Noble Lords will be aware that the previous Government took part in 11 rounds of negotiation on this issue. The situation was getting to a point where legal rulings had made it clear that the sovereignty of the Chagos Islands belonged to Mauritius. I accept that those legal rulings, to which I can refer Members opposite should they need me to do so, were not legally binding; however, it is clear that they were going in that direction. We found that it would be much better to take this decision from a position of relative strength, rather than wait for a legal ruling that would be legally binding to go against us.

[The Earl of Devon (CB)]

My Lords, I must congratulate the Chagossians on the return of their islands. How far back in time do His Majesty’s Government intend to go with their restitutionary zeal? We have seen reference made to the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar, and I should note my interests as a feudal proprietor of the Isle of Wight.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am not quite clear where the noble Earl is going with that, but it gives me the opportunity to state not only self-determination for the Isle of Wight but the unequivocal and longstanding clarity of this Government that the future of the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar lies squarely, wholly and unarguably in the hands of the Falkland Islanders and the Gibraltarians.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that not all Chagossians have welcomed this agreement, not least because it precludes resettlement on the unoccupied part of the largest island, Diego Garcia, the homeland of many who were so cruelly forced off the islands. Will the Government therefore look again at the exclusion of the whole of Diego Garcia and undertake genuinely to consult all parts of the Chagossian community before finalising the treaty?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My noble friend is right that the history of the Chagos Islands is a very unhappy one, and the Chagossians have been appallingly treated over many decades. The history is that these islands were uninhabited until they were discovered by the Portuguese, then colonised by the French, then taken over by the British after the Napoleonic Wars. The British then expelled the population in order to set up a UK-US military base.

The future and security of that base is what has driven this treaty. It is not for me or anybody else in this Chamber to speak on behalf of the Chagossians, but I think it a good thing that the intention of this treaty is that Chagossians will be able to return to the outer islands, and we will be resuming visits to Diego Garcia. This will not satisfy every Chagossian—as I say, they have been badly treated for many years— but it is an improvement on the situation we have had until now.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As the Minister has just confirmed, in 1967 the then Labour Government forcibly evicted 1,700 Chagossian people from Diego Garcia. Can the Minister tell us precisely how many of them or their descendants, now here in the UK, were consulted before the Government took the decision to hand over the islands to Mauritius?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we have engaged for a long time with Chagossian communities. This was a decision made between Governments, and the noble Lord will know that it is Governments who negotiate international treaties. It is right that we offer citizenship to Chagossians who want it, and a trust fund will be set up for Chagossians. As I have said, they will have the right to return to the other islands and the right to visit Diego Garcia.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

Does the Minister recognise a remarkable similarity between this exchange and the last time there was an exchange on the Chagos Islands, in the last Parliament, when the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, for whom I have the very greatest respect, stood at the Dispatch Box and defended the negotiation of an agreement to return the Chagos Islands to Mauritius, but to keep the base in being for Britain and the United States? Is it not a bit odd?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Far be it from me to comment on things that get said during Tory party leadership elections. However, I think it would help if I explained why the legal decisions have been made in this way. When Mauritius gained independence in the 1960s, the UK separated part of the country, in the form of the Chagos Islands, and that has been found to have been unlawful. Separation by the colonial power is not allowed in any circumstance under international law, and that is what the UK was found to have done at that time. That is why we have now had 13 rounds of negotiations to take us to this point.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister that the human rights of the Chagossians have been denied for generations. However, during the rounds of negotiations, and now with the agreement this Government have made, there has been no mechanism of consent for the Chagossians. I understand that we will be receiving a treaty, but in opposition Labour supported a human rights Motion on agreement for treaties. Given the seriousness of this issue, will the Government consider tabling an amendable Motion that can be voted on in both Houses in advance of the limited scrutiny of the treaty, so that all the issues, including the voice of the Chagossians, can be heard?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Noble Lords may or may not be aware that there is no single Chagossian voice on these issues; Chagossians live here in the UK, but many also live in Mauritius itself and in the Seychelles. The treaty will come before both Houses in the usual way, and there will be amendable primary legislation alongside it that will deal with some of the changes we need to make to the law in order to ratify the treaty.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on solving this issue, which was handled appallingly for many years during the last Government, and which has rightly been applauded by all the American players. First, will she confirm that the Government of Mauritius, one of the African democracies, have never shown any interest in an alliance with China, least of all over anything like this? Secondly, will the question of the right of the Chagossians not only to return, which is enormously welcomed by them, but to live on the outer islands remain on the table for discussion with the Americans so that, in due course, a resolution to that problem can be made?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The agreement, which noble Lords will be able to look at in detail in the treaty, will allow for Chagossians to return to the outer islands. There has been a lot of old nonsense spoken about China in relation to Mauritius. Mauritius is one of only two African countries that do not take part in belt and road. It is a member of the Commonwealth and a close ally of India.

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, the previous Government consistently consulted the Chagossian people and consistently concluded that this deal is not in the UK’s national or security interests. I am interested in the financial settlement. The Foreign Secretary said yesterday that Governments do not normally reveal payments but, of course, that is up to the Government to decide; and, for example, the US has revealed that it pays $63 million a year for its Djibouti military base. Does the Minister agree that it would be helpful, in the interests of transparency, to explain just how much taxpayers’ money is going to be spent on this deal? Where will that money come from—from the overseas development budget?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we never reveal the cost of basing our military assets overseas—we never have, we never will, and I do not think other nations do either. There are very good reasons for that. If we started to do so, I expect we would see the prices of these things start to go up fairly rapidly. No, we will not be disclosing that.

Ethiopia and Somalia

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of diplomatic tensions between Ethiopia and Somalia, and the implications for regional stability.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, tensions between Ethiopia and Somalia remain heightened and are affecting the region’s prospects for growth and stability. Further escalation is a concern. Alongside partners, we continue to urge all parties to avoid escalation and actions that threaten stability.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, experts on the region conclude that, thanks to the expansionist ambitions and recklessness of Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed of Ethiopia, the Horn of Africa is on the brink of war. Taking advantage of anti-Ethiopian sentiment, al-Shabaab is stepping up its recruiting and fundraising efforts. What steps is the international community taking to de-escalate tensions between the two principals and to minimise the risk of an upsurge in al-Shabaab terrorism, especially given the recent co-ordination between the Houthis and al-Shabaab?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My noble friend is right to raise this and we are deeply concerned about the prospect of escalation. We support any moves to encourage dialogue and de-escalation. In August, my noble friend Lord Collins raised this with Somalia’s President, and the Foreign Secretary and Minister Dodds both discussed it with Ethiopia’s Foreign Minister. My noble friend Lord Collins is visiting Ethiopia again this week for further discussions, and Ministers recently raised our concerns with Somali and Ethiopian counterparts at the UN General Assembly.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that, in addition to tensions driven by Ethiopia’s desire for sea access via Somaliland, Egypt’s hostility to Ethiopia is now mounting because of the issue around the Blue Nile dam? Does she agree that the last thing that the Horn of Africa needs is another calamitous conflict, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said? How are we working with the African Union and our allies, especially those in Uganda and Kenya, to avert such a catastrophe?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As the noble Lord indicated, we are concerned about many aspects of the increase in tensions, including in Somalia, Eritrea and Egypt. We applaud the work of UN security forces so far; we want it to continue and will work to support it in any way that we can. The position of the Government more broadly is to support any form of dialogue that will de-escalate this, and to ease tensions through conversation.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, in the previous Government, I led on the issue of preventing sexual violence in conflict. Tigray has incredible and abhorrent stories of sexual violence. The previous Government dispatched a team to collect evidence and ensure that perpetrators are held to account, and I would welcome an update on that. I stress again the importance of appointing a special representative on preventing sexual violence in conflict; the United Kingdom led the world on this and I hope that the new Government continue in that respect.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I note the noble Lord’s support for a special representative on sexual violence. There will be announcements about that. He is absolutely right to raise the issues of Tigray and sexual violence, and of food insecurity in the region, which we are equally concerned about. All this gets resolved only through dialogue and de-escalation, and that is what the UK seeks to support.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, conflict over water is likely to intensify so, following on from the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, what is the Government’s assessment of Ethiopia damming the Blue Nile? That obviously has beneficial effects for the Ethiopian economy but negative effects for the Egyptian economy, fuelling conflict. What kind of resolution can be brought forward here?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We completely understand why Egypt and Sudan would be concerned about access to water through the Nile and the dam, but the only way that this gets resolved is through dialogue between Ethiopia and Egypt, and we support any work that can happen to resolve this in as amicable a way as possible in the circumstances.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, Somalia is in great disarray. By contrast, the former British protectorate Somaliland is stable, and a model in that part of Africa. What are the prospects of the African Union accepting independence, just as it accepted Eritrea’s independence from Ethiopia?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The United Kingdom’s position is consistent and clear that, notwithstanding our long-term relationship with Somaliland, it is absolutely an issue for Somalia to resolve. I cannot be clearer about that. We respect the territorial integrity of Somalia and the steps that it will take to resolve this issue itself.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, in our helpful debate on Sudan just before the latest Recess, it was generally agreed that the maintenance of a degree of stability in the Horn of Africa was important to the security of the Red Sea routes, which are of key importance to the UK. Can the Minister therefore assure the House that the Government will approach this region on a strategic basis as a whole, rather than treating the different crises piecemeal?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is a very important point and is what I have been trying to get across—that you cannot separate some of these disputes, whether long-standing or more recent. As the noble and gallant Lord said, they need to be dealt with strategically and holistically, because the security and stability of the Red Sea and the Horn of Africa more generally depends on us taking that approach.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Minister referred to the whole issue being dealt with holistically and strategically. Perhaps she did not have the opportunity to answer one part of the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about the African Union. Have Ministers spoken to the African Union about this on their very welcome diplomatic travels? If so, what response have they had?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As the noble Baroness will know, the African Union has been very helpful in trying to support the resolution of these issues—specifically on security in Somalia in relation to al-Shabaab. We welcome and support that. We will continue to work with the African Union in this regard.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, what conversations are the Government having with the Somaliland Administration about the potential agreement for a port with Ethiopia? There is a regional organisation in east Africa called IGAD, the Intergovernmental Authority on Development. Is that a body that we can work with to try to calm down some of these tensions?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We want to work with any partners who will be helpful and active in trying to de-escalate the situation and relieve the tensions. We have been active in providing funding for the port but, as the noble Lord knows, the issue here is not just about whether Somaliland should have a port. This is about the ambitions of Ethiopia to gain access to the sea. That is causing tensions, which in turn is involving other nations in the region, which takes us back to the point made earlier about making sure that we do not look at these issues in isolation but are mindful at all times of the impact that these discussions have on the wider region.

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Browne, highlighted how al-Shabaab will take advantage of the tensions in the region. Will the Minister outline how the Government are continuing the important international efforts to ensure that al-Shabaab and other extremist groups do not take that advantage?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is absolutely right. It is one of the key reasons why we are being quite so active in this space, why my noble friend Lord Collins is there this week, why the Foreign Secretary and Minister Dodds have had so many conversations with Ministers in Ethiopia and Somalia, and why we will continue to support the security services on the ground. The mission is up for renewal at the end of the year, and we support work to see it continue for as long as necessary.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

As a result of the pre-existing conflict there are 1.1 million Ethiopian, Somali and Eritrean refugees in Sudan. As a result of the conflict in Sudan, they are now stranded twice over. Human rights organisations have concerns that the Ethiopian and Somali Governments are not providing support for returns. Will the Minister for Africa raise the status of refugees on his visit to Ethiopia this week?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My noble friend Lord Collins will raise all the relevant issues of concern surrounding Ethiopia and Somalia. Again, I point out that, whenever you have this level of instability and tension, these kinds of issues inevitably start to emerge. They are of concern not just to us in this House but to many people living in our communities. I am sure that my noble friend will raise them.