Lords Chamber

Tuesday 14th April 2026

(began 3 hours, 50 minutes ago)

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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Well, the noble Lady is energy, for this subject is well recognised for this subject is well recognised and welcomed across the House, and I celebrate and support what she does. One of my very closest friends, sadly a friend who's now passed away, was part of the same. She was the second generation from Trinidad. Her family came from Trinidad and so I, I, I knew this lady since junior school. So all through my life I've been hearing these fabulous stories of the Windrush generation and the the Windrush generation and their descendants have made a very profound contribution to Britain, helping rebuild the country after the Second World War and playing a central role in shaping the NHS, public services and national infrastructure.

And it's a story of resilience, as she said, and contribution reflecting both the hardships people face and the barriers they overcame. In terms of her question about funding, this is a very important question. And of course, the government is looking very carefully at the programme for funding. We need to make sure it is funded properly, but it wouldn't be right to pre-empt the decisions on funding before. We've spoken very carefully to the steering committee that's working on this, and that will be making sure that we mark this in a way that is relevant for the community.

Once we've done that, we'll be able to put some costs against it, and the government is determined to make sure we recognise it properly.
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Lord Coaker Portrait Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Yeah. Well, so the I was just thinking the Red Tie Club and I stood up there. So the, the serious point that the my noble friend makes is clearly an important one about the ability of us to detect and deter those who would who would threaten us. And I think the importance of the activity that took place in the in the North Atlantic was we were able, through the use. We have nine p-8s at Lossiemouth Air Base there. Of course, not all operational, although many.

Most of them are in able to detect and deter. There are other ways of detecting submarine activity, which is really important. So as I say, I think the ability to deter and to take action when necessary is really important. I can I just say to the to the my noble friend, Lord Robertson, quite rightly pointed out what he felt and the need for the strategic defence review to be implemented and funded. And that debate and discussion will will move forward. But can I also say to my noble friend that he will be particularly interested in that, mentioning submarines? I was in Plymouth recently.

We are putting billions of pounds into the docks at Plymouth to ensure that we have docks which are capable of dealing and working with the submarines that we have now to increase and improve the availability of those submarines. And that's true in many of the areas of the country. There is huge and significant investment going in the. The issue for us is what we do now in the interim, to provide the deterrent and the capabilities that we need in order to ensure our armed forces are able to act in the way that they do.

While we wait for some of those new ships, some of those new capabilities to become ready to us. And we're looking to advance that. And the final point, I'm sorry to say to nobles at this and to take this on, but the really important point is that the that the the need for this country to move from where it is to a position of war readiness is crucial. That is not a government effort. That is a whole of society effort from this side of the House, from that side of the House, from all parts of the United Kingdom, to deal with the threats that we face, our population has to understand the threat that they faced.

We as a government have to talk to them, and all of us have to stand up and say, we will defend our country and the values we stand for. Yeah.
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None Portrait Business of the House
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My Lord, that concludes our questions for today. House of Lords Commission report. The Senior Deputy Speaker. >> My Lords, I beg to move the fifth report of the House of Lords fifth report of the House of Lords Commission access rights for departing hereditary peers. Be agreed to my Lords following Royal Assent of the House of Lords Hereditary Peers Bill. The remaining excepted Hereditary Peers will leave the House at the end of the current session. The report before the House today proposes these hereditary peers should be granted the same access rights as members who retire under the House of Lords Reform Act 2014.

My Lords, I beg to move. The question.

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Is that this motion be agreed to.

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Is that this motion be agreed to. The question is that this motion be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say content the opinion will say content the contrary, not content. The contents have it. Procedure and Privileges

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Committee report. The Senior Deputy Speaker. My Lords, I beg to move the sixth report of the Procedure and sixth report of the Procedure and Privileges Committee be agreed to. This report proposes a new standing order to implement section two of the House of Lords Hereditary Peers Act, 2026 to allow another person to give or sign notice of resignation from the House on behalf of a member who lacks capacity to give or sign that notice. Personally. The process will be overseen by the Leave of Absence subcommittee of the Procedure and Privilege Committee, made up of the chief whips of the three main parties, the convenor of the crossbench peers and chaired by the Senior Deputy Speaker, this subcommittee will be the final decision maker in all applications.

The details of the operation of this procedure are set out in the report, but the key principle is that resignation pursuant to the Standing Order will only be permitted if two conditions are met. First, that the person applying has the authority to act on behalf of the peer, and secondly, that the peer has lost and is unlikely to regain capacity to give notice of resignation personally. Section two of the act came into force upon Royal Assent. So if agreed by your Lordships House, the standing order will come into force immediately.

And Lords, I commend commend the

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report to your Lordships. I beg to move. Question is that this motion be

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Question is that this motion be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say, content contrary, not will say, content contrary, not content. The. Standing orders public business. The Senior Deputy

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Speaker. My Lords, I beg to move the third motion standing in my name on

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the Order Paper. Question is this motion question is that this motion be agreed to? As many of that opinion will say, content the contrary, not content. The contents have. It. This may be an opportunity for those who wish to leave the chamber before we to leave the chamber before we
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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>> Second Reading of >> Second Reading of the >> Second Reading of the Grenfell Tower Memorial expenditure Bill.

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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage. My Lords, I beg to move that this bill be. Now read a second this bill be. Now read a second time. I would like to begin by acknowledging the bereaved family members of those who died in the Grenfell Tower fire, as well as survivors and members of the local community. My Lords, nothing that can be said in this House can diminish the loss they have endured, all the impact this tragedy has had on their lives, but they have the respect of this House and of the country as a whole.

The fire at Grenfell Tower, which claimed the lives of 72 people, was a profound and avoidable tragedy. Its consequences continue to be felt by bereaved families, survivors and the local community, and far beyond. Grenfell must never be forgotten and we must continue to ensure that nothing like it can ever happen again. There remains much work to do on justice, on reform and on making homes safe. But this bill is concerned with one clear and specific responsibility how we remember Grenfell and how we ensure that remembrance is properly supported over the long term.

From the outset, I want to be clear with noble Lords. This is a simple bill with a focussed purpose. It exists to provide the statutory authority necessary to support the construction and long term care of a Grenfell Tower Memorial and related activities. The design of that memorial and the way it is shaped must remain with the bereaved families, survivors and the community. This bill is intended to support that work, not to replace or override it. My Lords, Grenfell has never been and must never become a matter of party politics.

It is about doing what is right and about keeping our word. A commitment was made to support the bereaved families and survivors to create a fitting and lasting memorial at the site of Grenfell Tower. This government is honouring that commitment. That is why the independent Grenfell Tower Memorial Commission was established in 2019. From the beginning, its work has been community led, listening to bereaved families, survivors and the immediate community, and helping to shape a shared vision for the future of the site.

After extensive engagement over several years, the commission published its report Remembering Grenfell in November 2023. The report set out clear recommendations, including the creation of a permanent memorial at the site of Grenfell Tower, a private space where elements of the tower can be laid to rest with dignity and respect, and a physical and digital archive, alongside a permanent exhibition to ensure that the story of Grenfell is preserved honestly, sensitively and with care. This work has been guided throughout by those most directly affected by the tragedy, and it must continue to be so.

Views about the future of the site are deeply personal and not always shared by everyone. The process supported by this bill is one that remains firmly community led. The government has welcomed the Commission's recommendations and will support it to carry them forward. Community led design work is now underway following the appointment of a design team through a selection process that involved bereaved families, survivors and members of the local community. My Lords, this is a focussed Bill. It provides statutory authority required for government to spend public money on the construction of a Grenfell Tower Memorial and on its long term management and care.

It also enables spending on preservation and archive and exhibition, and a site where elements of the tower can be laid to rest and allows for land to be acquired and works to be carried out where necessary. Although preparatory work and community led design are already underway, Parliament must provide the statutory authority required to fund the delivery of this national memorial and to ensure its upkeep over the long term. This bill provides that authority. I want to underline one important point for noble Lords.

The bill is deliberately narrow in scope. It does not determine the design of the memorial. It does not make planning decisions. It does not set governance or ownership arrangements. Instead, it does one essential thing. It ensures that the expenditure connected to the memorial is properly authorised, in line with the rules governing public spending and with Parliament's consent. My Lords community led design work will continue while Parliament considers the Bill allowing progress to remain on course. The memorial will honour those who lost their lives and those whose lives were permanently changed by the tragedy.

It will be a place for remembrance, reflection and respect. The memorial does not diminish the other work that must continue. Following Grenfell, bereaved families and survivors have waited far too long for justice. Those responsible must be held to account and I fully support the Metropolitan Police in what is one of the largest and most complex investigations it has ever undertaken. We must also continue to reform the system so that residents voices are heard and safety concerns are never ignored.

The government remains committed to implementing the recommendations of the Grenfell Tower inquiry to deliver real and lasting change, and to ensuring that everyone can have confidence that their home is safe. My Lords, this is a modest bill in form, but it carries real weight. As I said, it's not about party politics. It's about how we remember Grenfell, what we learn from it and what we choose to do as a country. It does not address every issue arising from the tragedy, and we acknowledge that there is still much to be done.

What it does is ensures that the national remembrance is properly supported and protected with Parliament's agreement and in a way that respects the central role of bereaved families, survivors and the community. Above all, it helps ensure that Grenfell remains part of our national memory and that its lessons continue to shape a safer and fairer future. On that basis, my Lords, I beg to move the.
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook Portrait Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
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The question is that this bill be read a second time.

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be read a second time. My Lords, none of us will forget the events of the 14th of June 2017. the events of the 14th of June 2017. The shock we all felt is nothing to the pain the Grenfell community have suffered and we can never fully appreciate the consequence. The cost of the Grenfell fire to those who were there that night, and those who are part of that local community. They have shown such bravery in their fight for justice, and I pay tribute to that community who have demonstrated such resilience in the wake of this tragedy.

Through the inquiry, they have been fighting for justice for eight years now. I know noble Lords across the House share my hope that that community will soon get some further closure. I thank the noble Baroness, the Minister, for bringing this bill forward, which represents an essential step forward for the delivery of a lasting memorial for 72 people who tragically lost their lives as a result of the events of the 14th of June, 2017. Every one of them deserves to be remembered.

Their memory ought to be cherished, and Ministers are right to progress this important work to deliver a fitting memorial for the whole of the Grenfell community. Indeed, this memorial is not just for the 72 who died as a result of the Grenfell Tower fire. It's all for. Also for the 74 people who were injured, it is for their friends, their families, of all those affected by the fire. It's also for those who live nearby and who have links to that community.

It is for all of those who have been affected by the fire. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, the Minister for continuing the hard work that was initiated under the previous government. I am also grateful to the Minister in the other place, Samantha Dixon MP, for taking the time to meet with me to discuss both this bill, but also the ongoing work to support the entire Grenfell community. My Lords, I'd also like to pay tribute to all those who have supported the Grenfell community since the fire.

Both national and local governments, the MHCLG, in particular the Rbkc and their officers, the NHS, the voluntary sectors, the community groups and indeed the Memorial Trust. Their work, my Lords, has been vital and I know they will continue to support the Grenfell community. Turning to the memorial itself, this has taken a long time and that is the right approach. It continues to be essential that work progresses at the community's pace, not anybody else's. The conservative government ensured that the memorial was budgeted for, and I am pleased that the covenant, the current government have continued that support.

As the noble Baroness and Minister said, this is not a political issue. We must work together across political divides to do the right thing for the Grenfell community. Indeed, my Lords, this is not just a memorial for many of those who lost their lives in the fire. Grenfell is their final resting place. The site deserves to be treated sensitively and with dignity, particularly for their sake. In government. Given government, we had across the governmental committee to ensure the government is supporting a government is supporting the Grenville community.

I'd like to ask the noble Baroness Limb Minister how the government is continuing that cross-government work that we started work we did, for example, was on health. This community has health issues unlike any other community, both mental and physical. Fire, smoke contamination and all those mental issues that come from being involved in such an incident. Children's services are particularly importance to me. When I was the Minister, children that had been in their early primary years were now becoming teenagers.

Many of those children had spent all their childhood in families where Grenfell and the fire were continually there. They saw it day on day going to school, coming back from school, going to the leisure centre. But also their families were were damaged and by by what they had seen and what they had heard and what they had lost. And I think as those young people become teenagers, particularly, that is the time when I hope that across government we are making sure that they are supported, protected and helped.

When I talk to bereaved and survivors, they tell me that there is still no justice. So what is the government going to do to move this on to given this community piece and the ability to move forward with their lives? With that in mind, will the noble Baroness and Minister confirm that Ministers will continue to engage fully with the Grenfell community as work progresses on the memorial? My hon. Friend in the other place, Gareth Bacon MP, said the victims of the Grenfell Tower fire belong at the heart of everything we do in this place and outside it, to remember this tragedy that is a principal Minister should keep in mind whenever they're working on the memorial and the other measures to support this community.

This was a local tragedy, but it was also a national tragedy. And it is right that the nation should remember in a fitting and lasting way, all those who were affected by the Grenfell fire. We on these benches are very clear. The government must make good all its commitments on funding. So can the noble Baroness, the Minister confirm that all the funding pledges will be delivered on time and in full? On a related note, the refurbishment of the Lancaster West estate for those who are still living there is an essential project to ensure that the estate is fit for the 21st century and also, my Lords is a lasting legacy.

From the bad times to a better time in North Kensington. Can the noble Baroness, the Minister, update the House on the progress with the refurbishment? This work is ongoing, but there's still not clarity on the level of further financial support that may come from government. So can the noble Baroness Shah Minister confirm when that final detail will be available? And if she can't, can she at least give your Lordships House a commitment to expediate this in the interests of local residents who would benefit from urgent clarity, it is clear that any further delays will only be for the worse for that community.

We have debated my Lords Grenfell the Grenfell inquiry in this in your Lordships House on a number of occasions, and we know there are people who bear some responsibility for the fire, who have not yet been held to account, and that is very important to the community. Can the noble Baroness, the Minister, please provide the House with an update on progress towards delivering on the recommendations of the inquiry, and how a Minister's furthering efforts to ensure all of those who bear responsibility for the events of the 14th of June 2017 are being held accountable.

My Lords, just before I sit down, I want to reiterate our firm support for this important Bill which will enable the delivery of the much promised Grenfell Tower Memorial Ministers are right to continue the work of previous governments to deliver a more memorial that will serve the entire Grenfell community and indeed the nation as well. We wish the project Godspeed with the hope that it will give some closure and peace to the North Kensington community. We will support the government in everything they are to deliver on promises made to the Grenfell community.
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Lord Roe of West Wickham Portrait Lord Roe of West Wickham (Labour)
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My Lords, can I start by thanking my noble friend, the Minister, for her words and the continued commitment actually which my noble colleague the Minister is correct to state. We started with the previous government and I welcome her comments that this is not a political matter, but one of moral duty and necessity, to recognise that a tragedy of this scale speaks to the state of our nation, not just our politics, nor of housing, nor of people's class, nor where they come from, but actually the state of the nation.

So I think the sensitivity with which you spoke, my noble friend, the Minister is greatly appreciated, and I hope that those out in the community and those immediate family of those who lost their lives, will recognise that in the intent as spoken, they are to be given the power to determine what the physical manifestation of this memorial should be. In that context, I don't intend to speak to the principal of the memorial that has to exist on that site, because I don't believe it is for anyone in this House to speak to that, nor to define it.

It is not our privilege, nor is it our right, because we did not lose our loved ones. Those conversations, I hope, will continue. And as you have quite clearly expressed, I think in those first two opening statements, the way it progresses has to lie in the control and in the power of those who lost their most loved, dearest loved ones. And I hope we don't rush on that. And I commend my noble friend Lord Boateng, who has led so ably the Commission with that in mind and charted such difficult waters.

I think it is the sole job of this House and the other place to hold the government of the time to account on that matter, that they can demonstrate an evidence that there has indeed been conversation with those families, that there has indeed been a richness of process that allows for divergence of thought, because grief is personal. In that sense, I have nothing further to say. And I didn't have any notes because I tried to write something, but I couldn't.

So instead, I would perhaps like to speak to what I think Memorial must mean for the state and for society, because I think they are separate things and sometimes they are conflated, whether in statements around justice or around change. But what we're talking about today in respect of the physical memorial is very different from what I think the memorial should be for the rest of the nation. And the reason I say this is because of what I witnessed that night, since the night I thought long and hard about what my place was in that tragedy, and what might motivate me to keep going till, I would hope, drive better, change in those spaces.

I might have good effect. And what has motivated me was both the profundity of what I saw that night, but also the courage that is embodied in individuals, both rank and file firefighters particularly, and those who lost their families. And I, perhaps because I have no notes, I couldn't think of something suitably strategic to say. I would like to tell you the story of the night from the eyes of someone who stood there having come in, as expressed at the time, when I got sent in to try and do something to resolve what was a desperate situation on the ground.

Because in telling the story of these two men, I hope it might both bring home to this house the horror of the night. Because we use words like tragedy. We use words like loss of life. But I cannot explain to you the granular horror of the night, perhaps without telling the story of a person of a human, and how the courage that that story embodies in both the family of the young man I'll describe in a moment who lost his life, but in the courage of the rank and file firefighter, I hope we would understand our privilege and those who lead industry and those who build and refurbish houses, that we have something to aspire to and that we should be led by them.

And we shouldn't pretend that we lead them. And in the same way that the power in respect to the memorial must be given to the families, we must let them in. Their courage lead us in a continued journey and endeavour to improve, I think, not just the built environment, but restore our reputation as a country. Because I saw Grenfell as a statement on where the UK had got to. So I'll just tell you the story. Having arrived at Grenfell, I've been recognised that I was confronted by the absolute failure of the building almost immediately.

It was so graphic and profound. It was. It was unbelievable. It had happened in this country. It looked like something you might see in another country. Having realised that we would have to end stay put immediately. You know, with all of the investigation that has followed since, completely, understandably, the trauma that that placed on families, all of it. I wanted to go inside the tower to understand what I was sending firefighters into. So I queued to run in because we ran in under the shields of our policing colleagues because of the debris falling, standing behind a firefighter who I'd known for some time.

Actually, I served with him back in the day, back early on in my career. Both of us were scared because of the scale of what we were heading into. And then due to the ferocity of fire, due to the nature of where this poor young man had been trapped, the young man jumped from the building and having jumped from the building, there was a terrible shout. And I will never forget the noise of the impact, nor the shout as it came.

But he hit my colleague full on. He died in the most terrible way. This poor young man. And I thought my colleague had died because they were both, you know, in a on the ground surrounding me, 100 firefighters waiting to go into the tower. So I asked that the body of the young man be moved with dignity. And I asked that the body of the firefighter be moved. And I went into the town. Inside the tower I was confronted by a situation where there were no real services of any kind to provide protection to firefighters on their way in.

We didn't have enough water, so we were going to commit them without water. Right into the upper reaches of the building. We were in a situation where multiple members of the public were trying to get out of the tower, desperate to save their lives. Bodies were being carried down the stairs. It was a scene of absolute horror on a scale that I hadn't witnessed before, and I had seen many awful things in my career, both in the Army and in the fire service.

It became clear to me that I couldn't provide any comfort to my colleagues in terms of what we were ordering them to do. So I came back outside the tower and I briefed 200 of them, and I basically said to them, our radios are failing. We have no water. I'm going to ask you to commit into the building. I can't order you. You have families. You have places you you might want to go home to. But I believe it is in the best traditions of our service.

And at the end of the day, you know, we've got breathing apparatus, we've got protective kit. This is what we have to do. It is in the best traditions of our service, of our service to the community. Not a single one of them stepped back. They were terrified, but not a single one of them stepped back. And it was the same throughout the night. We had failed as an institution, but rank and file firefighters didn't. And their courage to this day has lifted me.

As I walked away from that briefing, I came across a gentleman who'd been standing in front of me who I believed to be dead. He was sitting on the ground serving his breathing apparatus set, having discharged himself from the back of an ambulance, pulled his drip out. Gathered a breathing apparatus set, and then committed himself into the building to save lives. A month after taking over as the commissioner of the London Fire Brigade, charged with changing the institution, it needed desperate change that had failed that night, along with government, industry, local authority, anyone who should have had any care.

I met the family of the young man who had jumped from the tower, and their courage was shocking. Their courage was as significant as the firefighter who had suffered serious injury and then took himself back in the tower. Their clarity about what had gone wrong, they told me what had gone wrong. They explained the failure of my institution to me. They explained the failure of government to me. They told me that they expected justice and they told me what they wanted.

To echo the words of both of my colleagues here in the House. We are not there yet because they set clear and straightforward expectations. So I think I'm going to end, and I apologise for the time, simply to say that the physical memorial that must be laid there on the Lancaster West is for the families. It's for those who survived. We have a different job to do, and if you ever doubt the necessity of it, I would ask you to think to my colleague and to the family of that young man, the desperate situation they found themselves in and the courage with which they have lifted themselves since.

And then I thank the Minister for her words. I believe that, and I hope that she would agree with me. That is the duty of this House, along with the other place, to hold ourselves and wider society to account, to make sure those changes are made real.
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Lord Sentamu Portrait Lord Sentamu (Crossbench)
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My Lords. memory becomes senile. Remembering Grenfell Tower and those who died in the fire, we should have been preventable will save us from becoming senile. The memorial would be a visible reminder. Lest we forget, my Lords, on the first memorial service held at Saint Helen's Church in North Kensington, I was invited to preach at a service by Carey Wendy Mendy. I described the tower as a tall coffin in the air, a symbol of forgotten people or people we constantly will remember.

Clarrie Mendy had lost two members in the fire, and she became a powerful voice in the campaign for justice for those who are affected. She brought in a wide range of community and church leaders from across London. My Lords, if you Google Clarrie Mendy Grenfell, there is a lot there about the impact she made. Sadly, Clarrie died in 2020 of motor neurone disease, but her legacy was somebody in spite of loss, so her work has galvanising everybody so that nobody forgets.

May she and all the others rest in peace. When I went to that service, I took bay leaves to that service from Bishopthorpe Palace Gardens for everyone present and focus on. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. Words taken from the Book of Revelation, chapter 22. I'm glad we took a lot of bay leaves because the church was actually heaving, and everybody again was determined that they will never, never forget what happened to our Grenfell Tower.

And I played a lament on my djembe drum, which went on for some nine minutes, and the silence that followed. We had a community that was determined to make sure that they will not. We will not forget. Saint Hilda's Church was nearest to Grenfell Tower. Its vicar, as Duval and its people did a lot of work to help and I used to visit it regularly in order to ensure that what we committed ourselves to doing will happen.

The Bishop of Kensington was Graham Tomlin, and he too did a lot to help people on the ground. My final words were no stone should be left untouched, untouched, and I am very glad that the inquiry left no stone untouched. And the Grenfell Tower Commission has done an excellent job of making sure that we do remember my Lord's. Let us remember Grenfell Tower and give the bill before us a resounding yes, lest we forget, our memory will become senile if we do not do what the Commission actually is asking, and also what this bill is wanting to enable some financial provision to be provided, and it needs to be done through an Act of Parliament.

I wholeheartedly support the bill. I wholeheartedly want to thank the noble Baroness, the Minister, in the way she introduced this particular bill and my other two speakers before me, who also were focusing on the whole question of memory. Memory matters. And when we do not remember, we find ourselves in real deep trouble. So the physical, the physical memorial will remind anybody who passes by or who visits that place that some great tragedy happened.

But out of it, we are determined to make sure that we do remember, because without remembering, we find ourselves sometimes drifting into oblivion or sometimes thinking that the present troubles really are are remember.
15:57
Baroness Dacres of Lewisham Portrait Baroness Dacres of Lewisham (Labour)
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My Lords, I rise to speak in >> My Lords, I rise to speak in support of the Grenfell Tower Memorial (Expenditure) Bill, a Memorial (Expenditure) Bill, a piece of legislation that carries with it, as my noble friend Lord Rowe of West Wickham, has said, profound responsibility. The tragedy at Grenfell Tower in June 2017, in which 72 lives were lost, remains one of the darkest moments in our recent history. It is a loss that is not measured only in numbers, but in the absence of loved ones.

In the silence left behind and in the enduring grief carried by families and the wider community. Before I continue, I just want to thank my noble friend Lord Roe for his contribution and his sharing of his experience, his memory. And it really has left a mark on me. Your words today. So thank you for sharing that and really driving home how important this memorial and the lessons and the changes that need has been made as a result of this devastating event.

We need to make sure that we move forward to make sure that there is change and that change is long lasting. So thank you. Lord Roe. Now, this bill comes before us as a poignant time. Next year will mark a decade since this tragedy. Ten years on and the pain remains, the memory endures, and the responsibility to honour those who were lost is undiminished. As my noble friend the Minister has said earlier, in legislative terms, this is a modest bill.

It does not seek to resolve the many complex issues that arose from this tragedy, nor does it replace the ongoing work of justice, accountability and reform. But what it does do is essential. It enables the creation of a permanent memorial, a place of remembrance, a place of reflection, a place that ensures that those who lost their lives are never forgotten. And that matters because memory is not passive memory shapes how we honour the past and how we act in the future.

The importance of this memorial lies not only in what it represents, but in how it is created. It must be led by the voices of the bereaved, the survivors and the community, their experience, their loss, and their resilience must sit at the heart of this process. This is not simply about building a structure. It's about creating a space that carries a meaning of dignity and truth. So while this bill is focussed on funding, it carries the weight of a moral, a wider moral justice.

It is part of our collective duty, a duty to remember, a duty to honour, and a duty to ensure that the legacy of Grenfell leads to lasting change. A permanent memorial will serve not only as a tribute to those we lost, but as a place for future generations to understand the consequences of failure, including the failure to listen to a community and to act on their worries and concerns, as well as the importance of accountability, safety and humanity in public life.

Remembrance, as I said, must never be passive. It must be must shape how we act. My Lords, this bill gives us the means to do what should always have been done to create something lasting, something respectful, and something worthy of those whose lives were taken. My Lords, we cannot undo the past, but we can honour it with purpose and ensure it is never forgotten. I support this bill.
16:02
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe Portrait Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Labour)
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My Lords, like every other >> My Lords, like every other speaker, I want to start by remembering the 72 lives lost and remembering the 72 lives lost and the countless others the victims, families, friends and the community whose lives were forever changed by the fire. The tragedy that took place at Grenfell Tower in the early hours of the 14th of June 2017 must never be forgotten and I, like others I think, was deeply moved by the direct witness of my noble friend Lord Roe of West Wickham and the heroism that he described, as well as the horror.

So, my Lords, I welcome the bill so empathetically moved by my noble friend, the Minister, it will ensure the establishment of a fitting and lasting memorial shaped by the community. It will not only commemorate the victims, it will serve as a lasting reminder of the avoidable actions that must never be repeated. I think it's worth reminding ourselves, my Lords, of the stark words of Sir Martin Moore-bick, the chair of the Grenfell inquiry. When phase two of his report was published and he said the simple truth is that the deaths that occurred were all avoidable and that those who lived in the tower were badly failed.

Over a number of years and in a number of different ways, by those who were responsible for ensuring the safety of the building and its occupants. I and I know my party welcomed the previous government's commitment to delivering the recommendations of the Grenfell inquiry in full, and I support the current government's plans to implement them all by the end of the current Parliament to ensure that a lasting legacy of this tragedy will be that everyone is safe in their own homes.

It was heartening to hear the commitment across the political spectrum to this legacy, when colleagues in the other place considered the bill last month, and I'm proud that the same commitment is evident in this House today. My Lords, I would particularly highlight the need for a change in culture towards one of transparency and accountability, a necessary change that the Grenfell inquiry emphasised. Collaboration across all these benches is crucial if we're to ensure that such a change in culture is cemented in practice and in delivery, so that a tragedy like this is never allowed to happen again.

My Lords, I want briefly to focus on the social housing sector's role in the remediation process. Housing associations are crucial to the delivery of the policy. The safety of their residents is of the utmost importance for them, and I know they're working at pace to remediate the buildings under their care. The collaborative approach of both government and the social housing sector in the development of the Joint Plan to accelerate the remediation of social housing and its deadlines has been welcomed. There is now a clear plan of action, which is coupled with sufficient resources to deliver ambitious.

The ambitious numbers planned are planned. The government has given equal access to the social housing sector, including housing associations, to the Cladding Safety Scheme announced at the 2025 Spending Review. This will be a transformative step towards securing the necessary resources. Progress has, as everyone has said, has been far too slow. Now, alongside the package of measures the government has produced, has introduced to bring about a decade of renewal for social housing. This has given housing associations more capacity to remediate buildings at a faster pace.

Progress is at last being made. Analysis by the National Housing Federation of the Building Safety data published by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, shows that the social housing sector has been completing works at around twice the rate of the private sector. However, it's clear that there is much more to be done and we need to see this welcome commitment to securing resident safety from all actors across the wider housing sector. My Lords, it's crucial that the social housing sector has the resources available to continue delivering on its commitment to carry out remediation works at a faster pace as possible, so can I.

In conclusion, ask my noble friend the Minister, to commit to continuing to work closely with the sector to secure the on time delivery of the deadlines outlined within the Joint Plan to ensure the tragedy that took place at Grenfell is not allowed to happen again elsewhere. My Lord. This bill enables the delivery of a memorial that should be a stark reminder to all of us of our duty to ensure the safety of people across the country in their own homes, and that that will be a long lasting legacy of this terrible tragedy.

I also hope the memorial, the design of which will be led by the bereaved and the wider community, will also be a place of remembrance for those who tragically lost their lives on that dark day in 2017.
16:07
Lord Garnier Portrait Lord Garnier (Conservative)
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My Lords. >> My Lords. >> Only someone. >> Who was there on the night. >> Of the Grenfell Tower fire, or

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Of the Grenfell Tower fire, or who experienced the loss of a loved one in that disaster, can truly understand what it must have been understand what it must have been like to suffer the physical and emotional losses that it caused death, injury, mental trauma, the sudden removal from a home, and the incalculable and continuing difficulties in questions for the emergency services and their personnel, are just some of the consequences that come to mind. But there will be others. The noble Lord Lord Roe, as others have pointed out, already partly spoke about this, and I commend him for what he did with his colleagues on the night of the 14th of June 2017, and what he said to us today.

It's right that there should be a memorial to the people whose lives were lost or damaged by fire. Its design is not a matter for this debate, but I hope that it, in its entirety, will be a thing of beauty and utility, which will last as a solace and as a continuing reminder not just of the lives lost, but of the need for public authorities and the corporate world to behave with responsibility for and to others. In short, I ask that we don't just look back, but that we look forward to the creation of a better regime for government and corporate conduct.

My Lord, in the compressed procedure that governs the narrow compass of this bill, there will not be time, and indeed, it may not be appropriate to introduce an amendment to describe the idea that I wish to advance, but it is one I would like the government seriously to bear in mind. And may I interrupt myself by making it clear that although some members of my barristers chambers have been involved in the Grenfell Tower inquiry and its related litigation, I am not a construction law practitioner and I have played no part in the inquiry, nor in any related cases.

My Lord Low a memorial of the type envisaged by this Bill is a fitting way to commemorate what happened on the 14th of June 2017. That's not all that we should do. What connects the 72 deaths in Grenfell Tower and other cases of corporate decision making resulting in loss of life? Are the bereaved families waiting for justice? The 72 Grenfell Tower deaths and others elsewhere caused by corporate failure make it clear that we need to strengthen corporate criminal law. My Lord, we may think corporate crime is only financial bribery, tax evasion, money laundering, fraud, cash in brown envelopes, false accounting, clever schemes that cheat the revenue.

Britain has, to its credit, taken a leading role in tackling those offences. But where corporate misconduct kills rather than steals, our legal system is failing and it doesn't have to be like this. The Bribery Act 2010 introduced a powerful weapon. A company commits a criminal offence if it fails to prevent bribery by those who work for it or on its behalf. Companies can no longer shelter behind ignorance or delegation. If a company benefits from wrongdoing and has not put reasonable procedures in place to stop it, the company itself can be prosecuted.

We later extended that model to the failure to prevent tax evasion and fraud offences through, respectively, the Criminal Finances Act of 2017 and the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act of 2023. The effect of those laws on corporate culture has been profound. Rather than turning a blind eye, companies now invest in procedures to prevent financial crimes. Without new UK legislation, the same cannot be said about the prevention of death, assault, forced labour and other non-financial crimes from which companies benefit.

It's now nearly nine years since the Grenfell Tower fire. The Grenfell Tower inquiry so ably and sensitively led by Sir Martin Moore-bick, concluded that the 72 deaths in the 2017 fire were, as the noble Lady, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe pointed out, wholly avoidable and resulted from decades of failure by government, industry and regulatory bodies. The final phase two report, published on the 4th of September 2024, identified, and I quote, a merry go round of buck passing where every party involved in the building's refurbishment failed to take responsibility for fire safety.

Sir Martin revealed that persistent and deliberate prioritisation of commercial interests over human safety played a direct part in causing this tragedy. A cladding company that knew that the safety about the safety issues was, and I quote, again, determined to exploit what it saw as weak regulatory regimes in the United Kingdom by 2023, the financial cost of the Grenfell Tower disaster had reached nearly 1.2 billion. That's billion with a B, that's 4000 times the amount that was saved by replacing fire retardant cladding with a cheaper, combustible alternative.

During the disastrous refurbishment. The bulk of the cost is being met from the public purse, dwarfing the compensation to the bereaved and the survivors paid by companies involved in wrapping the tower block in combustible materials. Before the fire in June 2017. Although the biggest fire in a residential block, Grenfell was not the first and there have been others since. So far, no one has been held criminally accountable. I could cite other examples where corporate decision making or the lack of it, both here and overseas, has caused or been alleged to have caused hundreds of people to lose their lives, homes and livelihoods.

I will not say more, because at least one of those cases I have in mind is currently the subject of high Court proceedings here in London. But what I can say is that the law of the United Kingdom makes it difficult for cases like these to result in effective accountability, let alone access to justice. For those who have suffered jurisdictional arguments. Aside, holding corporations accountable for criminal activity is complicated, whether it's based on the identification principle or by attributing it to a senior manager, an improvement now proposed in the Crime and Policing Bill, which is shortly to receive Royal Assent.

But crucially, existing laws do not impose a proactive duty on companies to take reasonable steps to prevent foreseeable harm arising from their commercial activities. The introduction of effective corporate accountability laws here in the United Kingdom is long overdue. I first wrote about the need to plug the gaps in our legal system more than eight years ago in the times newspaper. Since then, my Lord, other countries have moved ahead Norway, Germany, France and the EU as a whole have all introduced a legal requirement for companies to prevent human rights and environmental abuses in their operations and supply chains.

Now is the time for us to act. The failure to prevent model is an effective British legal innovation. It is pragmatic and it is fair. It doesn't criminalise accidents. It doesn't promote meaningless box ticking. It simply asks whether a company that has that has benefited from serious wrongdoing took reasonable steps to stop it. If the company can prove to the civil standard that it did, it has a defence. If it. If it did not, it should answer in the criminal courts and compensate its victims.

Calls are growing to extend this model beyond financial crime, to discourage harm to human rights, workers rights and the environment they come from campaigners, from parliamentary committees, from trade unions, from investors, businesses themselves and the independent anti-slavery commissioner. The argument is no longer seen as radical. It's not, as others said, party political, it is humane and it is orthodox. The government's trade strategy proclaims that responsible business conduct is a priority, and a review of the UK's approach is underway.

If Ministers are serious about this and they wish to be taken seriously about this, they should build on what works. My Lords, a new law cannot bring back the dead of Grenfell, but the failure to prevent model has changed corporate behaviour before and it can do so again. Would not such a reform of our laws be a practical and above all, a fitting memorial to the victims of the Grenfell Tower fire?
16:16
Baroness Chakrabarti Portrait Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)
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My pleasure. >> To follow the noble and learned Lord Garnier and my Lords, that the late, great Martin Amis described the sensation of of ageing as feeling like breakfast comes round every 15 minutes. So dare I say it, for some of us? In your Lordships house, 2017 feels like yesterday. But of course for the survivors and the bereaved, it must feel like every day. And so of course, I welcome this bill to fund a memorial. But I agree with with everyone else that the best memorial would add action on culture governance, regulation.

Yet in the field of building and fire safety, but more, but more generally as well. But this was no natural disaster, nor one caused by overt acts of terrorism or war as normally understood. But equally, it was no natural disaster. Instead a catastrophe, a loss of life caused by public and private, central and local negligence,

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complacency cover up corruption and greed, my Lords. Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah. And greed. In the late 1990s and 2000 was given political voice through the through the zeal for through the through the zeal for deregulation and privatising regulation, as we see in the in the regulation, as we see in the in the report and against the so-called health and safety culture that was derided at times by senior politicians, including very distinguished ones, including in your Lordships House. And this was done with an enthusiasm now reserved for the denigration of human rights alone, perhaps, and in pursuit of the cutting of red tape.

Some lives mattered a great deal less, as we've heard from the noble and learned Lord, a great deal less than corporate profit. And these are the profits of architects, builders, manufacturers of building materials. All those who purported to regulate and kitemark all of the all of the above. Again, for profit. A bit of an oxymoron. Not so much regulatory capture as regulatory corruption and cancellation. And this is so clear, my Lords, from Sir Martin Moore-bick damning inquiry report.

And what are the public sector, the central and local government that should have been on the side of the poor and the vulnerable, those tenants in the richest borough, in one of the richest cities in the world. My Lords. Sir Martin was appropriately scathing about the negligence of central government. And as for local government, Kensington and Chelsea is consistently rated as our capital's richest borough in terms of average household income, property prices and the concentration of what are described as high net worth residents.

Is this what led a so-called royal borough to behave more like a rotten one via its tenant management body? There's an idea tenant management body, that treated the concerns repeated concerns of Grenfell residents even after earlier comparable high rise fires. With such contempt. That's in the years before the fire and some would argue, even in the immediate aftermath after the fire brigade. I need a little more than how well represented that service has been today by my noble friend Lord Rowe of West Wickham.

And he said we failed as an institution, but our people, our firefighters, didn't. And I think his courage and his humility in in describing his experience is something that that few of us will forget in a hurry if that approach to public service could be distilled and distributed

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more widely, our country would be a much a much That's a place I would suggest.

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That's a place I would suggest. I hope that this draft legislation has already made some legislation has already made some contribution by prompting all of us who who are attempting to who who are attempting to contribute today to reread those findings and recommendations, urgent recommendations of the of urgent recommendations of the of the Grenfell inquiry report. But I know my noble friend to be fierce in her defence of human rights and renters rights, and I know that memory without action will be insufficient for her.

So may I ask her her view of implementation to date of Sir Martin Moore-bick reports. Public, if not private, sector obfuscation in the aftermath of disasters would be significantly lanced by the prompt passage of the long promised Hillsborough legislation. Can she advise the House on the likely timetable for that? Can she also advise or or say anything more on what noble friends have have alluded to in in in relation to the timetable of relevant criminal prosecutions, given that the report itself lays considerable breadcrumbs for the police and prosecution authorities to to to follow.

Is she of the view. And this is where the noble Lord noble and learned Lord Garnier comes in. Is she of the view that the current criminal law is adequate? Because I think few that heard him would be would be reassured that it is is the the law of corporate manslaughter and directors regulation and disqualification adequate to provide corporate and personal accountability for the kind of unadulterated neglect and corruption that we saw in this and, and other scandals, including that of the postmasters.

And will the government, in the wake of all sorts of other debates about AI and and all sorts of exciting challenges, will the government always remember the importance of transparent and effective regulation, not just in in housing, but in every other aspect of everyday life? Housing is no mere commodity. It is a fundamental human right. Sir Martin's report emphasises the importance of safe, private, dignified housing to any quality of life. And perhaps, my Lords, the denigration of human rights might be might be resigned to the dustbin like the denigration of health and safety that came before it.
16:24
Lord Forbes of Newcastle Portrait Lord Forbes of Newcastle (Labour)
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Hear, hear. Yes. >> My Lords, I first declare an interest and draw your attention to my role as a non-executive director my role as a non-executive director at MHCLG, which is the lead department for this bill, and the bill, as presented very ably by my noble friend, the Minister, is short, tightly drawn and constitutionally straightforward. It's a money bill and as such, as many speakers have already said, our role today is limited. However, its significance is anything but limited.

This bill asks Parliament to do something solemn to authorise public expenditure so that this country can create, maintain and steward a permanent memorial to the 72 people who lost their lives on the night of the 14th of June, 2017. My noble friend, the Minister has explained so eloquently what this bill seeks to do. What it does not do is equally important. It does not determine the design, the governance or the planning decisions associated with the memorial. Those remain rightly with the bereaved, the survivors and the local community through the Grenfell Tower Memorial Commission.

This is a deliberate choice on the behalf of the government Ministers in the Commons, who are clear that the narrowness of the Bill is intended to preserve community leadership. And that is, my Lords, a profound shift in our British tradition of memorialisation. For most of the last century, national memorials from the stone, from the cenotaph to the Commonwealth War, grave cemeteries were designed, commissioned and governed by state or national bodies. Grenfell is different. It is community led because the community has borne the greatest loss, and because the state must demonstrate again that it must not impose decisions on people whose voices were ignored for far too long.

But, my Lords, we also must be honest about why this memorial is needed. The Grenfell Tower fire was not a natural disaster. It was not an unforeseeable accident. The public inquiry has documented in painful detail what the government itself has described as failure after failure. Year after year, failures of regulation, of oversight of enforcement and of listening. Many members in the Commons debate said plainly that Grenfell was an avoidable tragedy rooted in systemic regulatory failure. The memorial, therefore, is not only a place of remembrance, it is a form of institutional accountability.

It is a public acknowledgement that the state failed its most important basic duty to keep people safe in their own homes. My Lords, at the time of the fire, I was the leader of Newcastle City Council and the four weeks that followed were the worst of my time holding that office, because I was not able to give a categorical assurance to residents in my city that every tall building around them was safe. Those buildings in public ownership, where we had clear records of design, of building control, sign off of construction materials and usage, were manageable even when remediation work was needed.

But several tall residential buildings were a mystery. We didn't know who owned them. We didn't know how they'd been constructed. We didn't know what materials had been used, and there was no mechanism, none to find this out quickly. That was the direct consequence of a deregulatory zeal that removed safeguards without understanding what those safeguards were there to prevent. It was a failure with profound consequences for public confidence and public safety. The Grenfell Tower fire has been described by commentators as one of the gravest failures of the British state in modern times.

Personally, I would go further and call it the greatest crime committed in this country this century. What is beyond dispute is that the cladding that turned a small kitchen fire into an inferno was not installed for thermal efficiency or for structural protection, or for any purpose that served the residents inside the building. It was installed for cosmetic reasons. For those who looked at Grenfell, not for those who lived within it. This was a deliberate attempt to hide a community that some considered inconvenient or unsightly, or somehow less deserving of dignity.

At the heart of this tragedy lies a toxic mix of elitism, class prejudice and a disregard for people living in poverty. A memorial cannot put that right, but it can ensure that we don't look away. It can ensure that the lessons of Grenfell are not confined to inquiry reports or regulatory guidance, but are embedded in our national memory, and it can ensure that future governments, of whatever political persuasion, remain accountable for the long term stewardship of that memory.

That is why this bill legislates for expenditure not only today but for the decades ahead. It mirrors the long term commitments we have made to the maintenance of our war memorials. Recognising that remembrance is not a one off act, but a continuing and collective intergenerational responsibility. And, my Lords, this bill may well set a precedent for other tragedies linked to state or institutional failure. Hillsborough the contaminated blood scandal, the Post Office horizon scandal have prompted calls for memorialisation that acknowledges harm and honours those affected.

The approach taken here with community leadership and statutory funding, may shape how Parliament responds in future. But my Lords, I'd like to end on a point that has been raised by many survivors and bereaved families. Community leadership does not mean community responsibility alone. The state cannot outsource remembrance. It cannot say this is for you alone to decide, and therefore for you alone to carry the responsibility for learning, for reform, and for ensuring that nothing like Grenfell ever happens again, rests with public bodies, regulators, and those of us in positions of authority.

A memorial is not a substitute for action. It is a reminder of the cost of inaction. So while I support this bill and the funding it provides, I also say this the true national memorial to Grenfell must be a housing system that is safe, a regulatory system that is robust, a culture that listens to tenants, and a state that never again allows people to be treated as though their lives matter less. My Lords, this bill enables a physical memorial.

It is our duty to ensure that it also builds a moral one. pleasure.
16:31
Baroness Sanderson of Welton Portrait Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Conservative)
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To follow the noble Lord Lord Forbes of Newcastle, and I would like to thank Lord Roe of West Wickham for his incredibly powerful speech. I sometimes think that we all maybe need a reminder sometimes of the enormity of that night. And your speech certainly did that. And I just like to say that while while he spoke about the night itself, what he didn't mention is the incredible years of painstaking work that he has done with the community in the years since.

And I would also like to acknowledge the work of that community today, and in particular, the representatives of the Memorial Commission, because for them, the road to get here has been a rather less straightforward than the bill before us today. We know that in the days after the fire, the local community pulled together in the most extraordinary way. And we all remain in awe of their resilience. But it was inevitable that with the tragedy on this scale, people were going to take different views on how to navigate the aftermath.

And one of the most sensitive and at times divisive issues has been the memorial. So it took great courage for the bereaved and survivors to step up and take a place on that commission. And I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord Lord Boateng in co-chairing it alongside Thelma Stober, who has played a brilliant and pivotal role from the very beginning. It really hasn't been easy and there will be undoubtedly further hurdles ahead. So could I ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, to ensure that the government pays careful attention to the role of the commissioners when taking any decisions related to the site and the memorial.

Because of all the people involved in this process, they are uniquely exposed and we do owe them a huge debt of gratitude. Now this bill sits alongside the deconstruction process, which continues apace. And I know the government is aware that there is still a lot of distrust, I'm afraid, about the way the decision was taken. And in fairness, it was never going to be an easy decision for anyone to take. But it does remain a sensitive issue. And so I just wonder if the Minister could assure the House that proper support will continue to be made available to those who need it, because trauma this significant, it has a long tail.

And as one former resident of the tower told me, we've all given a lot of thought to how people might be affected by the tower coming down. But what about when it's no longer there? I'm not sure any of us have properly thought that through yet, and at the same time, as I understand it, some support services are no longer available. On the visit to Al-Manar, myself and Nick Hurd were told that they would no longer be receiving funding for their helpline, which is relatively relatively low cost and has provided a lot of help to many in the local community.

So while I don't expect the Minister to know the details now, could she perhaps right with an update of what support is available, be that through helplines, drop in sessions, specialist support services and GP practices? And I think I'm right in saying that support will be available until the end of any potential criminal proceedings. But if she could perhaps confirm that, I'd be grateful. And we are here today to talk about the memorial. But the memorial and those proceedings and the question of justice are inextricably linked.

And in 2024, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stuart Cundy took the highly unusual step of publicly confirming that the met would be submitting charging files to the CPS. But as it stands, the investigations are still ongoing and those charging decisions aren't expected until the spring of 2027. Now, in his excellent speech in the Other place, the hon. Member for Kensington and Bayswater said that Ministers in the Home Office had told him that the government's special grant for Operation Northleigh the operation into Grenfell would continue.

But could the noble Baroness, the Minister, confirm that that's the case? Because she said that there was support for the investigation, but I'd be grateful for just clarification on that point on the grant. He also raised the important point about ensuring that court time is made available, and I understand that this is not in the government's gift, but families are anxious about the delay. So I think it is worth mentioning, and I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us if there are any representations to the government can make on this.

And then finally, I'd just like to mention a couple of other related issues. When the discussions began about the future of the site and the memorial, the government agreed a set of principles with the community that would govern the process. And as has been mentioned by Baroness Scott of Bybrook, one of those principles accepted that work on the site and the memorial would go hand in hand with work to deliver a model 21st century estate, and that is the Lancashire West estate.

Some progress has been made, but I hope that the government will continue to support our Bkc in ensuring that the memorial will sit within that model of social housing that I know we would all like to see in the future. And finally, so the memorial will honour the memory of all those who lost their lives. And of course, it's important. But the Grenfell community has always been clear that alongside any appropriate memorial, they want Grenfell to be remembered not for what happened on the night, but for the positive change that it brought about, and for groups such as Grenfell United.

That should be the real legacy of Grenfell, and they have spent years at great cost to themselves trying to bring about that change. And one of the most important aspects of this was the professionalisation of social housing. And some of us in this chamber today will remember that long running battle. So I won't repeat the arguments other than to say it put right the anomaly whereby social housing was the only frontline service without any formal qualifications structure. So I do want to put on record the disappointment many felt at the regulator of social Housing's decision not to set a standalone competence and conduct standard, but instead incorporate the requirements into the existing transparency and accountability standard.

Now this has come as an unwelcome surprise, a big surprise to the sector, including the Chartered Institute of Housing. So could I ask the noble Baroness Limb Minister whether the government agrees that this proposal does not accurately reflect its original direction to the regulator? And if she can't answer that today, perhaps she could write. And I promise that is my last request of her, because despite the number of questions, I genuinely welcome today's bill, and I thank the noble Baroness for the way in which she introduced it.

But as she said at the outset, it is just one part of a complex landscape in which there is still much to do if we are to do right by the Grenfell community. For all those who survived and all those who they lost that night.
16:39
Baroness Nargund Portrait Baroness Nargund (Labour)
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Lord Sewell. >> I thank my noble friend, the Minister, for her introduction and give my strong support to this bill. give my strong support to this bill. I joined the noble Lords from across the House in thanking my noble friend Lord Roe and his team for their service that night. As others have already said, the Grenfell Tower fire was not only a profound tragedy, it was an event that exposed deep systemic failures in building safety, governance and the relationship between communities and the state.

The fire, in which 72 individuals lost their lives, was, as Sir Martin Moore-bick concluded in the inquiry, entirely avoidable. It has left a stain on the City of London which allowed this to happen, and in our wider country it must remain in our national conscience. My Lords, recovery from this tragedy has been about more than buildings and regulation. It's about memory, dignity and recognition of those who were lost and those who continue to live with its consequences.

My Lords, Grenfell has had a profound impact on me professionally and personally. I had the privilege and I used that word with great care of serving as a trustee of the London Emergency Trust, representing the British Red cross on its board as a director at that time, I came face to face with Grenfell families when I attended a meeting with the Grenfell United with some of my colleagues, which I will never forget. We were not confronted with statistics, but with people, families who were grieving, families that were angry and traumatised.

They needed to be heard and most importantly, they needed urgent, practical help. Grenfell was a tower, but in the face of that tragedy, I could see that the community came together and stood as a tower of strength through the London Emergency Trust, we distributed £8 million to the bereaved and hospitalised, and a further £773,000 to 165 households. We allocated grants for those hospitalised for pregnant women who suffered due to unimaginable stress, and for families who had lost fathers, mothers, children.

Behind every grant application, there was a family that was grieving. There was a community that was in huge distress. It was one of the most humbling periods of my life. The British Red cross provided one of the largest humanitarian responses since World War Two, mobilising volunteers from across our country at the start of the fire and deployed over 630 volunteers who supported more than 1700 people. I can't forget how volunteers arrived from all over the country.

And also, it raised £7.3 million in funds to help those affected by this terrible tragedy. I thank all the volunteers, our psychosocial team, for their immediate response at the time and the senior leadership of the British Red cross and trustees of the London Emergency Trust for their service. My Lord's Grenfell tragedy, as we have heard, should never have happened. It exposed systemic neglect of the very people the state had a duty to protect. As a doctor, I have spent much of my career speaking about health inequalities and helping to tackle health inequalities, but Grenfell forced me to confront something even more troubling an inequality of safety and inequality of voice in our society.

Grenfell Tower stood in one of the most deprived areas in the country within Kensington and Chelsea, one of the wealthiest boroughs in our country. Around 85% of those who died were from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds. These two facts are not incidental. For years, residents had raised concerns about fire safety and were consistently ignored. As Leslie Thomas KC, who represented many of the bereaved families, argued, Grenfell is inextricably linked with race. A working class community tucked or forgotten inside one of the richest boroughs of London.

The failure to hear, to act, to protect fell disproportionately on those who already had least a permanent memorial is not an act of charity, but of civic responsibility. Grenfell must never become just a chapter in our history. It must remain a call to build a society where safety is not determined by race or postcode. A permanent memorial must carry that truth, not just the grief. The bill's provision for expenditure of the Grenfell memorial, including an archive and a sacred resting place for the elements of the tower, in line with the recommendations of the Commission is therefore vital.

Memorial of this significance must be properly maintained, protected and preserved for future generations, not only for them to remember those who were lost and those who lost, but to remind us of our duty to tackle inequality and protect the most vulnerable in our society. My Lords, critically, the Bill does not prescribe the design of the memorial. It enables government expenditure while ensuring the community shapes the memorial's design and purpose. Those most affected must remain at its heart.

My Lords, the Bill is a necessary step in honouring our commitment to that community and to our nation, and I commend it to the House.

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Who and what we as a country remember matters. My Lords, I remember matters. My Lords, I wanted to speak in this debate, although many others in your Lordships House are clearly far more qualified on this topic and more qualified on this topic and have had direct face to face experience of the tragedy. But as somebody who is living in London somebody who is living in London and has the name of a council estate in my title, this was a debate and a subject that mattered debate and a subject that mattered very much to me.

I remember vividly those events of the 14th of June 2017 unfolding and watching in total disbelief. It was a day where so many things changed, and this painful event in the city's history is etched on Londoners hearts forever. Of course, that is incomparable to those who were there and witnessed it with their own eyes and a living with that day. As others have mentioned a repeated memory, it is absolutely right that there is a fitting memorial, and it is absolutely right that governments, institutions, professional organisations and regulatory bodies learn every possible lesson from this appalling tragedy and litany of systemic failures.

Both of these things can only happen, as others have said, if a relentless focus on the voices of surviving residents and the local community is maintained. Phase two of the Grenfell Tower inquiry government response, published in March 2026, stated it was clear from events leading up to the tragedy in 2017 that too many voices had gone unheard by. Too many responsible organisational bodies, leading to devastating consequences. The report goes on this government is determined that we learn from these injustices and ensure that tenants voices are not only heard, but reliably acted upon.

And I want to thank my noble friend, the Minister, for all the reassurances today that that is precisely what is happening, as well as the work that has happened on this in the other place. And that really is the key here, not just hearing from those voices, but learning from and acting on. It is so important that this memorial is built and well funded, both to remember those who died and also to
16:48
Baroness Hyde of Bemerton Portrait Baroness Hyde of Bemerton (Labour)
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declare war on institutional thoughtlessness, a phrase I borrowed today from prison borrowed today from prison scholarship. These systems and structures that failed so badly were the results of cultures that were the results of cultures that allowed cost cutting regulation to be treated merely as guidance, a lack of rigour in thinking through lack of rigour in thinking through what might happen in the event of systemic failure, and therefore a systemic failure, and therefore a lack of mitigations in place. There was wide ranging institutional thoughtlessness.

Now, systemic failures are far less likely to viscerally impact those in senior roles, often cushioned by class, wealth or their whiteness. The systemic failures at Grenfell Tower are no different. These failures that resulted in the deaths of people whose lives and stories have been too marginalised, too often marginalised and forgotten. And, as your Lordships' House have heard, those that lived in Grenfell Tower and those who died there were disproportionately working class people who had made their home afresh in the UK.

Black and brown people who and what we remember matters. Black lives matter. And this is why this memorial is so important, both for the survivors and the community who have expressed their desire for one one that includes private space to grieve and one with funding to preserve it and sustain it. And the memorial is important for our country to say, clearly those 72 lives mattered. Each life of value, each person remembered, each story told. Their lives had huge value, and the systemic failures that brought about these tragic and untimely ends have been devastating to uncover.

And this. Sorry and this memorial will remind all of us in your Lordships House and in the other place, all of those in positions of power that there cannot be a relaxed approach to systemic failures. They are not someone else's problem. It is not OK to wait for a loss of life to address them repeatedly. It is demonstrated that systemic failures impact some groups of people disproportionately, and this memorial will serve as a reminder. Each life is precious and of equal value.

Whatever your gender, whatever your ethnicity, whatever your skin colour, whatever your class, people of all faiths and none lives of equal value. And I want to express my gratitude to the survivors, the community, and all those who have who are and will contribute to this memorial. We can hear in your Lordships' House tributes today just how much work and thought has gone in, but still so much yet to do. My gratitude for enabling the whole of London and the UK to better remember those precious lives and these people's stories.

My Lords, who and what we remember really does matter.
16:51
Baroness Hazarika Portrait Baroness Hazarika (Labour)
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My Lords, it's an enormous privilege to take part in what has privilege to take part in what has been such a thoughtful debate today. I myself remember the shock of witnessing that charred husk of Grenfell Tower as I drove across London to do the paper review on Sky news, and I remember being on air, and it was just incredibly difficult to process what had just happened in this day and age in a residential building. And it was a moment and a tragedy that none of us, whether we were journalists or any of us here, could really get our heads around 72 people losing their lives in this day and age, not just statistics, as we've heard, but men, women, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, aunties, uncles, and so, so many children.

Babies perished in what must have been unimaginable fear, confusion, bewilderment and pain. That night I was thinking about the tragedies that live on in history. The ones that we think change things, the ones that heralded a new era of health and safety and change. I was thinking, for example, about a tragedy. I spent a lot of time thinking about various reasons that the Titanic and as much as we talk about the systemic failure, and we will come on to discuss that.

As my good friend Baroness Hyde just said in her excellent speech, remembrance, and the power of remembrance and the staying power of remembrance is about those human stories, people and personalities like Raymond Bernard, known as Moses to his friends who had moved to the UK from Trinidad in 1969, he worked as an electrician and a part time DJ. His relative said that he had long flowing locks, like the free thinking lion, that he was like those we girls.

Haniya Hassan, aged three, and her sister Fathia, aged four, known as fufu, who died alongside their mum Rania Ibrahim, their dad and Rania's husband Awada said that his life had fully stopped that day since the fire. Or like the Shakira family, who lived on the 22nd floor of Grenfell Tower, Basim died alongside his wife Nadia and their three girls, Zainab Minera and Fatima. Basim worked at Marks and Spencer's, and he was described by his colleagues as a dedicated man who never took a day off.

Such was the pride in his work. His mother in law Syria, also died alongside them. Syria had come to this country from Lebanon back in the 1960s. She worked at the Royal Marsden Hospital, where she became close friends with her boss, a lady called Maria del Pilar Burton, who also lived in Grenfell Tower and who died in hospital six months after the fire. Like the retired lorry driver Anthony Dyson, who lived on the 22nd floor, his son said of him he was always there to help anyone, no matter who you were or where you came from.

Like the Filipino pensioner Ligaya Moore, who loved her 21st floor flat. She was so proud of it because she said it made her feel like she was on top of the world, like the artist and photographer Khadija Seyi, who lived and died with her mum Mary Mendy that night. Khadija was a great, great talent and her work was displayed at the Venice Biennale and the Tate Britain after her death. Like Gary Maunder's, aged 57, who was remembered by his family as a man with a great personality and a devoted Manchester United football supporter.

Sheila, aged 84, who lived at Grenfell for 34 years. She was full of life and fit as a fiddle, often seen around cycling, doing yoga on a daily basis and a keen swimmer at the Kensington Leisure Centre until she was 80 years old. And Stephen Powell, who lived on the 15th floor. Stephen, her dad said of him, was her daughter, said of her dad was a keen fisherman and a DJ and had a style which was like a West Indies man trapped in an Irishman's body.

Stephen's best pals were her three were his three dogs who also died with him that night in his flat. Now these are just a handful of the stories behind that number 72, the number of people who died that night. And as we have all been discussing here, we must remember and honour every single one of them. And we must also honour what Grenfell Tower represented in an often toxic, polarised world. We are often told, particularly online, that London, our capital, has been invaded by outsiders, that it is a violent cesspit, that it is a crime ridden and nasty, unhappy place.

But we all know in this House that Grenfell Grenfell that we've all got to know through the work we have done, told a very different story. The globe resided there, people from all over the world who came to work in London to work very hard like Bassem, and make a better life for themselves, alongside Londoners who lived in that building and who found in that tower block such riches, friendship, kinship and community in life and then tragically, in death, Grenfell is a reminder of resilience and unity in a very divided climate of hope and of the best of humanity, particularly in the aftermath and the days afterwards.

So I very much welcome this bill and the many, many wonderful, thoughtful, really moving contributions that we've heard, particularly from Lord Rohan. I think we were all extremely humbled by his story, his bravery, his lived experience, and he very powerfully reminded us here of our privileges and our responsibilities. We all agree, though, that this memorial, however it takes shape, must be guided by survivors, families and the local community, but have always been discussing the legacy must be more than simply memories.

It must be about learning the right systemic lessons for the future, and it must be about justice, which means prosecutions, like so many of the big scandals of our generation, including horizon, nobody senior and very well paid, ever seems to be held properly accountable. And every single one of those deaths were avoidable. As the inquiry said, everyone who died in the fire had been failed by those responsible for keeping them safe. I really welcome the words from the Minister and I hope you know she will have heard many of the questions, and I'm sure she will agree with all of us that these reports and these recommendations must just not become dusty tomes on the shelf of history.

We must never allow a

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tragedy like this to happen again. My Lords, following the 2017. General election, I was

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General election, I was appointed Housing and Planning Minister on the 13th of June by the then Prime Minister. Now the noble then Prime Minister. Now the noble Baroness May. That, of course, was the day before the terrible tragedy the day before the terrible tragedy at Grenfell Tower, where 72 people lost their lives, 54 adults and 18 children. As many of you Lordships have noted, this was a tragedy that should never have happened. And, you know, the Grenfell Tower inquiry has been very clear.

Those 70 deaths were entirely avoidable, and we have to acknowledge that ultimately, this was the result of decades of failure by successive governments, by a myriad of institutions and, of course, the construction industry. A number of
17:00
Lord Sharma Portrait Lord Sharma (Conservative)
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noble Lords, Lord Garnier, Baroness Sanderson, Baroness Hazarika, have Sanderson, Baroness Hazarika, have pointed out that so far no one has been prosecuted for this disaster. been prosecuted for this disaster. Now, we know that the criminal investigation remains ongoing. But when charges are brought, and I when charges are brought, and I sincerely hope they are, the full force of the law should be thrown force of the law should be thrown at those found to be culpable. I also want to say that the immediate initial response to the fire was also simply not good enough.

As Ministers, we acknowledged that at the time I did so in the media and in Parliament, we should have moved much faster to put our arms around the grieving and shell shocked families and communities to offer support and reassurance. Now the government did pick up the pace, and in the days and weeks following the tragedy, I and other Ministers spent a significant amount of time listening to and engaging with the survivors and indeed the wider Grenfell community to offer immediate support, but also to discuss longer term support that may be required.

And Baroness Sanderson has set out very eloquently a lot of what was started then and continues today. I also noted in a parliamentary debate in the in the other place, that hearing the harrowing accounts of the survivors was the most humbling and moving experience of my life. And that, my Lords, remains the case. And if anything, the passage of time has just reinforced to me the real dignity that was maintained by the survivors in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy.

Despite the unimaginable pain and grief that they faced, I particularly recall my Lord's speaking to one survivor when I was meeting with families individually at the Westway Emergency Relief Centre to talk about the housing needs, and this gentleman had waited patiently for hours to speak to me. And in our conversation, I learnt that at the time, some members of his family were still unaccounted for, but he wanted nothing for himself. All he asked was that I.

We do everything to prioritise and help find accommodation for survivor families with young children. His was a display of the best of humanity at a very dark and testing time for our nation. My Lords, I very much welcome this Grenfell Tower Memorial bill which will allow for the construction of a permanent and fitting memorial. We all owe an enormous, enormous gratitude to the community led Grenfell Tower Memorial Commission, which has worked so diligently over the past years to recommend how the victims of the fire should be remembered.

And I agree entirely with Lord Rogan. I pay tribute to him for the work that he did that night and has done so subsequently, but I totally agree with him that of course, it is up to the community to decide what this memorial should be like. But I do think that the Commission's recommendations show great sensitivity and awareness about the type of memorial which should be constructed. I particularly welcome the recommendation that the memorial should be a sacred place, designed and built to last for remembering and reflecting, both individually and communally, on who and what we have lost.

It's also vitally important, as the Commission recommends, that there is a long term public exhibition which, together with digital archives, will help to ensure that current and future generations can learn about and remember the tragedy. The fact is that contributed to it and how the Grenfell community responded to it. My Lords, we must never forget what happened through years of inaction and worse, was effectively allowed to happen on that fateful day. Baroness Chakrabarti and Baroness Nargund have have noted that this happened.

This tragedy happened in the middle of one of the most prosperous and advanced cities in the world. Now, the Commission has committed to beginning the memorial's construction, as I understand, in mid 2027. And the passage of this bill will, of course, help to ensure that public money is made available and a permanent Grenfell memorial is vital. But of course, there are other ways that we can also honour the memories of those who lost their lives first. And Baroness Scott has raised this particular issue, and I'd certainly be interested in hearing from the Minister on this.

We would like I would certainly like to see the government deliver on its commitments to help fund the refurbishment of the Lancaster West estate, and I know that the government is having a constructive dialogue with the local council, but for the sake of local residents, funding decisions need to be concluded now. And second, as many of you Lordships have noted, we need to ensure that the recommendations of the Grenfell inquiry are implemented in a timely manner so that a tragedy like Grenfell can never be allowed to

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happen again. I commend this bill to the House which. My Lords. The Grenfell.

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My Lords. The Grenfell. Tower was a tragedy of an unimaginable scale, as many of the contributions have reminded us, but particularly Lord Roe of West particularly Lord Roe of West Wickham has described the shocking events of that day so movingly. So
17:06
Baroness Gill Portrait Baroness Gill (Labour)
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events of that day so movingly. So today I rise not only to debate a bill, but to honour 72 lives that were tragically lost. We do well to remember that each one of those 72 individuals had dreams and futures. There was someone's child, a parent, a brother, a sister, an uncle or an aunt. And I thank Baroness Hazarika for sharing the stories of those individuals who perished. I think it's so important for us to remember the individuals, but there were also countless others who were injured and impacted for the rest of their lives.

It wasn't just them and the local community that was left scarred by the Grenfell Tower fire, but the entire country too, was left scarred. I recall vividly, like many others, the day I heard the news, I was in Brussels at the time. The sheer horror felt as the news sunk in was followed rapidly by questions how could this happen in the UK? A first world country, not some poor developing one with shoddy standards. A country that prides itself as well regulated with strong ethos of values, rule of law and standards.

I recall the shame I experienced as a British representative in the EU, fielding questions from other MEPs about this and asking how could this happen? As many have said in one of the most prosperous capital cities of the world, the international standing of Bran Britain was badly damaged that day because Grenfell wasn't simply a fire, it was a national tragedy that exposed deep failures in safety, in accountability and in duty that we owe each other as citizens.

The combustible cladding, the fire doors that failed, the evacuation procedures that were tragically inadequate, the deeper systemic failures, failures in regulation, regulation, oversight and accountability that made such a disaster possible going forward. As someone who has also long history in housing development, I shudder each time I hear the word deregulation in reference to housing, because that means lax enforcement of construction standards and building regulations, which is where we need to be strengthening these. Furthermore, residents must have clear and accessible channels to raise their concerns without fear.

Unsafe materials must be removed from all buildings nationwide identified as a risk. Landlords, building managers and regulators. They must all face real accountability and I know many of the Lordships have already raised this point. But I ask my friend, the noble Baroness, the Minister, when will we ensure that negligence in housing safety carries consequences strong enough to deter future failures? My Lords, Grenfell is not a chapter we can close lightly. It is a stark reminder that safety cannot be optional, that dignity of residents cannot be compromised, and that complacency costs lives.

We must act decisively, implement every recommendation in full and monitor progress rigorously, and ensure that no community ever endures. The pain, the fear, the loss that Grenfell bought, the lives lost, and the voices of those who survived demand nothing less. And we must ask ourselves, how will we honour them through action? Or will history record that we waited too long? Therefore, a memorial for the victims is wholeheartedly welcome and long overdue. So, as we've heard, this bill is not about politics.

It is about remembrance, dignity and responsibility. A permanent memorial is essential, not just as a structure of stone or steel, but as a place of reflection, a space where families can grieve, where communities can gather, and where the nation can remember ensures that those we lost are never reduced to statistics, but are forever recognised as human beings whose lives really mattered. But I reiterate that remembrance alone is not enough. This memorial must also stand as a symbol of change, a reminder of the consequences when safety is compromised and when voices, especially those of vulnerable residents, are ignored.

So it must call on all of us in this House and beyond to ensure that such tragedy can never happen again. We owe that to the victims, we owe it to the families, and we owe it to the future generations. Passing this bill sends a clear message that we remember. We care, and we are committed to building a safer and just society. Let this memorial promise a promise that Grenfell will never be forgotten, and that its lesson will never be ignored.

I commend this bill.
17:13
Lord Sikka Portrait Lord Sikka (Labour)
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My Lords. >> That it Memorial will bring. >> Some comfort to friends and families of those who lost lives, and thousands more scarred by this avoidable tragedy. The root cause of this tragic tragedy is lust for higher profits, performance related pay, failure of regulators, local authorities and governments. No memorial will be complete without ending regulatory failures to ensure that there are no more Grenfell Tower people's lives and welfare must come before corporate profits. Yet, sadly, deregulation is the mantra of the day as governments push for economic growth at almost any human cost.

Sir Martin Moore-bick, chairman of the Grenfell inquiry, said that cladding manufacturer Arconic and I quote, deliberately concealed from the market the true extent of the danger of Reynobond 55 PE in cassette form. End of quote. The inquiry found that Kingspan knowingly made false claims about his insulation, about his insulations fire performance and conducted, quote, long running internal discussions about what it could get away with, unquote. The inquiry concluded that Celotex used, quote, dishonest means, end of quote, to break into the market, presenting its insulation as safe while knowing that it did not meet the required standards.

The inquiry found that companies used, quote, deliberate and sustained strategies to manipulate the testing processes, misrepresent test data and mislead the market. End of quote. The inquiry identified, quote, persistent indifference of the Tenants Management Organisation, systemic dishonesty of product manufacturers, and decades of government failures as the causes of this tragedy, the government has accepted all 58 of the inquiry's recommendations, but they have not yet been fully implemented. Many buildings are still have the same cladding as in Grenfell, despite evidence no one has yet been charged or prosecuted over the death of 72 innocent people.

No director has been disqualified. The offending companies are not excluded permanently from public procurement. No legislation has been introduced to improve corporate governance or accountability. Directors are not held personally liable for causing grievous harms. Ministers bat away calls for urgent actions by claiming that somebody else, like the police, is looking into the issues and prosecutions may follow. Governments speedily prosecute carers and poor people for minor indiscretions, but suddenly lack the necessary backbone for dealing with corporate crimes.

Here are just some examples. After 30 years and despite the 2019 High Court judgement and a landmark inquiry, no one connected with the Post Office or Fujitsu has been charged or prosecuted. Yes, there is the ever ready excuse that police are looking into this, which may or may not be able to bring any prosecutions. England's water companies have over 1200 criminal prosecutions. Fines on companies are announced but then quietly waived or not collected at all. No company has had its licence to operate withdrawn.

Company executives are rewarded for boosting profits by dumping sewage in the rivers. No one is charged or prosecuted for killing marine life, destroying biodiversity and even harming humans. Then there is the long running saga of the £1 billion frauds at HBOs, which since 2009 has been part of the Lloyds Banking Group, the FCA, the SFO and the City of London, which is partly funded by city institutions, declined to prosecute anyone. In 2017, the Thames Valley Police and Crime Commissioner successfully prosecuted some eight managers for fraud.

Still, the regulators refused to fully investigate and secure compensation for the victims. Instead, Lloyds Bank was persuaded to appoint Dame Linda Dobbs to investigate and issue a report by 2018. No report has been issued. Some victims of the fraud have since died and obviously never received any compensation. I have raised matters relating to HMOs in this House on many occasions, such as 28th January 2021, 14th April 2021. 6th February 2023. 9th February 2023.

22nd January 2024. 14th February 2024. 15th May 2025. 26th March 2026. Just to give you a few examples, the typical response from the Ministers is silence. Carefully calculated indifference. All that it is a matter really for somebody else or a failed regulator. This is how the political system, my Lord, incubates tragedies like Grenfell because the Ministers governments are too afraid to upset the corporate lobby. The most fitting memorial for the victims of the Grenfell fire is effective democracy regulation.

Corporate and director, accountability. Governments, which can be called to account and speedy justice to ensure that such a tragedy never, ever occurs again.
17:19
Lord Boateng Portrait Lord Boateng (Labour)
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My Lords, I rise to speak in this debate only in my capacity as co-chair of the Grenfell Tower Memorial Commission. The Commission welcomes this bill. I can thank on behalf of the commission, the noble Lady, the Minister, the noble Lady, the representative of the opposition for their support for the bill. I can thank on behalf of the Commission, the whole House, the whole House for its unanimous support of the bill.

The Commission is grateful the Commission reflected on the Bill and the circumstances which are. Arise that exist that led to its introduction at its last meeting. The Commission. Wrestles with this issue. Not only at its meetings, but for the overwhelming number of its membership, excepting only myself and my co-chair, who is a source of inspiration to us all, Deputy Lieutenant Thelma Stieber is a survivor of 77.

She has been with the commission and with the people of the Grenfell community from the very outset of this tragedy and its aftermath. And the commission has asked me publicly to thank her for her service over these many years. Hers is the only name I will mention in the course of my contribution to this debate. Safe to say, and they haven't asked me to say this, but I'm going to say it that each and every one of them, each and every one of them, people who have lost their nearest and dearest, who have had to bury their nearest and dearest people who have lost neighbours and friends, people who have lost their very homes, people who are bereaved, next of kin, survivors, residents of the immediate community to have served with them on this commission has been the greatest privilege of my life, the greatest privilege of my life.

But I do have to tell you that at the heart of the Commission's work and we begin every meeting of the Commission with two minutes silence, two minutes silence in memory of the 72 who lost their lives. They have been at the heart of the Commission's work. They have to be at the heart of this bill as it's implemented. We in the Commission are in the business of Memorialisation and therefore you will forgive me, hon.

Members, if I don't address this specific point individually. You have made with great force and with great acuity. In the course of this debate, and bringing to bear your enormous experience at first hand of these matters, I will address only the issue of memorialisation save in one matter. Memorialisation is all very well in its built and material form, and rightly, you with this measure, provide the material resources that will enable a memorial to be erected.

That's all very well. The Minister, in her excellent introduction to the bill, referred to the community's desire and the community's entitlement to and the community's entitlement to respect. I welcome that, but this community, whilst appreciating respect, demands justice. They demand justice. They haven't had justice. And I have to tell you. They don't expect it. They don't expect it. You may hope for it and your expressions of hope are appreciated.

This community does not expect justice. They will continue to demand it. They don't expect it. And so. The Memorialisation has to address those wider issues around learning the lessons that you all in this House have expressed. That can be the only memorial if we do address those difficult issues, so well articulated by my noble and learned friend, Lord Garnier. That do require legislation. This is an easy bill to pass.

It is passed without opposition. It will not be so easy to pass a bill that puts in the dock those people who are responsible for this injustice, that won't be so easy to promulgate, and it won't be so readily passed. But it must be passed. It must be passed. If these are to be anything other than empty words, it must be passed. That's all I'm going to say. That's all I'm going to say about the content of your Lordships debate today.

The rest of what I will have to say in a very few words. Is simply to Mao that it is my duty to Mao as co-chair. The expressions, the ready expressions, the printed expressions, the published expressions of the aspirations of the Commission as to what a future memorial should be like. It's contained in the. The Grenfell Memorial Vision statement. These are its words. The Grenfell Memorial. We will be at its heart a peaceful place.

It will provide a space for reflection and remembrance of those that lost their lives, of why this tragedy happened, of why this tragedy happened, and the need for justice. The memorial will reflect the Grenfell community and the love within it, evoking a sense of hope and positivity that remembers the past and looks forward to the future. It will be a place for bereaved survivors and members of the local community to come the local community to come together.

A respectful, bold and lasting memorial that honours those that lost their lives and their families. The survivors of the fire and members of the local community. That's the vision. That's the vision that in passing this bill, you will enable materially with the resources to be realised. Thank you for your vigilance. I'm authorised to say that on behalf of the Commission, thank you to each and every one of you for your vigilance. For your service.

And. I do have to say, well, they have. Of course, they were not to know it. I do have to say a particular thank you to you, my noble friend, the Lord Roe, for his service, and those of the other men and women of the London Fire Brigade. On that night. A huge thank you to you. The first responders. But your vigilance will be required, because I have to tell you in this we addressed at the last meeting of the Commission, there are and going to be obstacles ahead.

And I would only say this about those obstacles, and I say it to both front benches. I said also to the leader of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. Do not allow any disagreements between you, the Royal Borough and you, the government of the day, do not allow any party political considerations to come into the decisions that must be made to ensure that Lancaster West is properly Lancaster West is properly developed.

That the memorial is properly encompassed on all sides. By an estate. That is in itself a worthy place, a place where people who are all too often marginalised and forgotten are in fact respected. Don't allow any party political disputes or disputes about resources to get in the way of that, because listening to you, members of this House and listening, as I did in the other place, I do not believe that you will allow them to get away with it.

The community, the commission expects you to deliver on the promise and the hope and expectation that your sentiments and your work rightly have aroused. And in that I hope you will be led, as we have been led by the incredible spiritual power and engagement that the faith communities have marshalled around this tragedy. Because immediately on that night and thereafter, the one set of institutions that were able to deliver to that community were institutions of faith, were the churches were the mosques, were people of faith coming together, being there alongside a community, a community which, however marginalised.

However disrespected it has been, has been actually a community of faith. Different faiths. But believing. In a God, believing in something greater than ourselves and our individual self-interest. The meditation that guides us as a commission. And it's there. The very first page of the report is one that talks of, and I report is one that talks of, and I quote, grief, remembrance, empathy, nerve, fortitude, energy loss, and love. Those are the words.

That is the title of the meditation, and it the title of the meditation, and it ends with these words, as I do. We have faith in the truth. We all know we have hope in the very justice of our cause. We have love in our hearts for which there can never be closure. And of all these three, it is the name of love that

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will journey on. Malone's.

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And this has been an incredibly

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And this has been an incredibly moving debate. In particular, the contribution of the noble Lord Roe contribution of the noble Lord Roe of West Wickham, who shared his of West Wickham, who shared his practical experience at some
17:35
Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock (Liberal Democrat)
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personal cost, I think. But it has personal cost, I think. But it has helped us all understand the context in which we debate today context in which we debate today this bill. Thank you. Every member this bill. Thank you. Every member this bill. Thank you. Every member who has spoken. Fully supports the proposal in the bill to fund the memorial to the 72 lives lost at the Grenfell Tower tragedy scandal. I sometimes call it.

And we on these benches associate ourselves absolutely fully with those sentiments. The very powerful speech from the noble Lord Boateng. Just brings home again. How the depth of. Feeling both positive and that of distrust that has developed within the community affected by the fire and how we all here have that huge responsibility to do what many members have said, which is to ensure there is action as a consequence, not the memorial is very important, and I will speak a little bit about that.

But part of the memorial has to be how we put right the wrongs that that community suffered. That will be the lasting legacy, the lasting memorial, as well as the physical one that this bill enables. So Remembering Grenfell is a is a very powerful read. And. It captures the emotions and memories of reflections of of those who survived. And it is their contributions that must be faithfully followed. And of the memorial is primarily for those families and that community of that terrible night.

But it is my hope that it will also stand as a lesson to our hours and future generations of the dreadful consequences of disregarding people. All the evidence from the tragedy indicates that the views of those who lived in Grenfell Tower were dismissed by those in authority, simply because the people who live there were often poorer economically and from many different cultures, cultures and backgrounds. Those differences were sufficient for neglectful as well as criminal decisions being taken.

And as a noble Lord Garnier noble and learned Lord Garnier has said, rightly said, and fully support. What he has said is that corporate failures of this scale. That end in loss of life or harm to individuals, have to be addressed and. The route is through legislation, and that's what we do. So I hope that the noble Baroness Minister has listened carefully to what I'm sure she has, because she always does to the noble and learned Lord Garnier and take that back to the department in the hope that that will not be easy.

But it may be one of the ways in which we we we really remember and act upon we we really remember and act upon what happened that dreadful night. Members across the House have have reflected on, you know, what should what should be done. The memorial is important and memorial is very important. And using the site of the tower is very important because it is where 72 people ended their lives. So that's what this bill is about.

But surely as many members, I think all members have said, it is also about what lessons we learned and what how we can act on those lessons. One of them has got to be that listening carefully to people affected, whoever they are, whoever they are, is vitally important. And we often talk in in legislation of consultation and beginning to hate that word. Consultation has to be a two way process. It has to be about asking for views, listening to those views, and then together acting on them.

Otherwise, there's no point, in my view, no point at all. Another lesson has got to be that those in authority, including ourselves, must be constantly mindful that must be constantly mindful that cutting corners can also cut lives. Because that's what happened. No bodge jobs, covered up cost, lives that regulations red tape, some people call it because they want to dismiss it. They want to say, we can cut red tape now.

We had regulations in place for the building industry in and building construction in when the Grenfell Tower fire occurred, but those regulations weren't enforced. So I think when all of us. Everybody, nobody likes all the regulations because they regard them as constraining what they can do. But regulations. Are there for a purpose. And if if the regulations had been properly followed and Grenfell lives would not have been lost. And so whenever anybody talks about, let's cut the red tape.

Well, let's remember Grenfell. Another lesson is that perverting regulatory requirements to improve profit margins must never, ever be acceptable in any circumstances. And the noble Lord Sikka has reminded us of the deliberate, deliberate acts of perverting regulatory requirements that caused Grenfell. Now, all institutions provided for the public benefit have hard lessons to learn, which I hope can be reflected in any exhibition element of the memorial. The individuals of the London Fire Service were heroic in their efforts, but the institution had not learnt from previous incidents.

The local authority had demonstrably failed the community it's purported to serve. And had the fundamental changes been made to the culture and purpose of the local authority and council, has it, the latest reports indicate that is the latest reports indicate that is yet really to happen. And. Criminal charges must follow what has occurred, because if we don't, then there is never to be justice for the 72 and the families and that community.

And actually the rest of us are looking for justice. Because if you don't put that right, it will happen again. So I'm hoping that. Elements of the memorial will include those lessons and how we must not forget those lessons. You know, even now, nine years on, there's 15 buildings more than 18m high that have not had their work done. Those are the most risk. And there's. 4000 that the department written a bit more than 4000 buildings of 11m or more, and of those, only 1500 have been fully remediated.

You know, there's work to be done and it should be done. It's nine years nearly. And people who are paying the price, those who live there in those properties. If they're leaseholders, they're paying sky high insurance, they're paying inflated service charges. So but yet the people who. And. Organisations who cause the tragedy and are yet to pay. And that has got to follow that has got to follow. So, my Lord, there is much to remember, much to learn from the appalling and dreadful tragedy of Grenfell Tower.

But above all, the memorial must form a fitting remembrance to those who perished.
17:47
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Labour)
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My Lords, this has been an >> My Lords, this has been an incredibly moving, thoughtful and serious debate, and I would like to begin by thanking noble Lords from across the House. The contributions we have heard reflect the weight of Grenfell's legacy for bereaved families, for survivors, for the local community and for the country as a whole. I did want to just reflect on those very precious lives brought to us so vividly in the testimony of my noble friends, Lord Roe and Baroness Hazarika.

As today's debate has shown, whatever our political differences, there is a shared understanding across the House that this bill is not about party politics. It's about the lasting impact of Grenfell on our national conscience. It's about doing what is right and about keeping faith with those most directly affected by the tragedy. And it's also about the collective commitment made by Parliament that Grenfell would be remembered with dignity, with truth and with permanence. Before I turn to the points raised by noble Lords during the debate, I want to restate very clearly exactly what this bill does.

It's a simple bill with a focussed purpose. As I said, it provides Parliament's authority for public spending required to deliver the Grenfell Tower Memorial so it can be constructed, it can be cared for, and it can be sustained over the long term. And it also authorises spending on any site where elements of the tower can be laid to rest in the peace that the noble Lord Boateng so powerfully reminded us, as well as on preservation. An archive and an exhibition, and on land acquisition in support of those activities where needed, and for works to that land.

The Bill does not determine the design or location of the memorial, nor does it set governance arrangements on how it will be run. And that is because, as so many Lords have noble Lords have mentioned, this bill is not about taking control. It's about supporting the community led design work that is already underway and ensuring that it has the financial backing it needs with Parliament's consent. In doing so, the bill helps ensure that Grenfell is not forgotten and that remembrance of the tragedy continues to sit alongside and support the government's wider programme of reform.

Following Grenfell and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott mentioned my hon. Friend in the other place, the Minister, Minister Dixon, and I'm so pleased that she's sat patiently in the gallery all through our debates today to hear what your Lordships had to say. I will respond to the detailed points raised by noble Lords in a moment, but let me turn first to the very powerful testimony of my noble friend Lord Roe. Lord Rose spoke about the courage of all those involved. I want to thank him for his service on that dreadful day.

I want to thank all his colleagues in the London Fire Service, and I want to thank all those who have been involved in supporting survivors and the families since, and the community since then. My noble friend, put the emphasis on the responsibility to ensure that families, survivors and the community are front and centre of this project. We must honour their memory by ensuring we continue to serve. We continue to strive to move this on in all respects, so that the failure he highlighted is confronted and dealt with and brings the justice, the safe homes and the lasting legacy that says never again can I thank you, Lord Roe for your work and your testimony.

A number of noble Lords, including Baroness Scott, the noble Lord Sentamu, Baroness Nargund, noble Lord Forbes and many others have raised concerns surrounding support for the Grenfell community going forward. Supporting remembrance does not detract from supporting bereaved and survivor families and the immediate community. I want to reassure noble Lords we are continuing to work through local authorities, health partners and the community to ensure those families are supported. The memorial forms part of a long term national commitment, not an alternative to action elsewhere.

My noble friend Lord Forbes spoke about the centrality of the community whose voices have been ignored, leading to this dreadful tragedy. Well, can I reassure him and the others that have spoken about this, the Department for Education and MHCLG have jointly issued additional funding to Grenfell affected schools to support children, young people and entire school population throughout the period of works to carefully take the tower down. And likewise,
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