Winter Fuel Payment Debate
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Torsten Bell
Main Page: Torsten Bell (Labour - Swansea West)Department Debates - View all Torsten Bell's debates with the Department for Work and Pensions
(1 day, 21 hours ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
I listened closely to those remarks but am still none the wiser as to whether the Conservative party is committed to reversing the changes to the winter fuel payment. I am grateful for the opportunity to have this debate. The changes to the winter fuel payment have been much discussed and debated many times by hon. Members in this place. Governments make decisions and, rightly, they are held accountable for them in this place, especially when those decisions affect pensioners, whom we all want to support. This Government have made, and will continue to make, responsible choices in our management of the public finances, but also in ensuring that we deliver on what matters most.
Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)
How on earth can the Minister say to a pensioner that he has made a responsible decision, when that pensioner is sitting at home worried about whether they dare turn up the heating when they are cold, because they cannot afford it?
Torsten Bell
I was coming to the exact answer to that: responsible choices are how we can ensure that we deliver what matters most to pensioners: a rising state pension and rescuing an NHS that was collapsing on the right hon. Lady’s watch. That means we will make choices that may not always be easy—I recognise the strength of feeling on this issue in this place—but are necessary. Everyone in this House knows the economic and fiscal context.
Mr Jonathan Brash (Hartlepool) (Lab)
In Hartlepool we have taken a proactive approach over this issue. Since October I have been working with Hartlepool citizens advice bureau to help pensioners get the support that they deserve. The campaign ends next week, but as of today we have managed to raise £885,900 of additional annual income by ensuring that pensioners get the benefits to which they are entitled. Will the Minister congratulate Hartlepool citizens advice bureau on its extraordinary work?
Torsten Bell
I congratulate it and I thank my hon. Friend, and probably hon. Members on both sides of the House, who I am sure have engaged with local charities in supporting their pensioners in the months that have gone by.
Saqib Bhatti (Meriden and Solihull East) (Con)
The Minister is being generous in giving way, and I am sure that he will continue to be. He talked about making responsible choices. According to Government analysis, 100,000 pensioners are being pushed into poverty. Is that a responsible choice?
Torsten Bell
The poverty assessment, which we provided to the Work and Pensions Committee, does not take into account any increase in pension credit take-up, which I will come to shortly. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately), talked about absolute pensioner poverty—the kind of poverty that should be falling every year as an economy grows. But relative poverty—a form of poverty that we look at—rose under the last Administration. Opposition Members may not like to hear this, but relative pensioner poverty rose by 300,000 under the last Government. I just gently say that when it comes to pensioner poverty, we have more to do—I take the hon. Gentleman’s point seriously—but the record of recent years is not one of success on that front.
Everyone in this House knows the economic and fiscal context—the economic stagnation of the past decade, visible in flatlining wages, collapsing public services and strained public finances. Every economist and every person in the country knows that Britain has lived through an unprecedented economic failure. In a challenging fiscal environment, difficult choices are unavoidable. The Government have set fiscal rules and we will stick to them. But, as some older Members may remember, prudence is for a purpose: to support a growing economy that benefits everyone. It is the prerequisite for rescuing our public services and rising living standards for workers, but also for pensioners.
Suella Braverman (Fareham and Waterlooville) (Con)
In my constituency, even after taking into account pension credit, 20,000 pensioners will lose out from the Government’s cuts. Maggie from Waterlooville wrote to me to say:
“We have cut back on heating, we are both in our seventies and we both feel the cold.”
How on earth does the Minister justify that as a responsible choice? How on earth will forcing pensioners into pneumonia or influenza help the NHS? How on earth can the Minister come here and justify treating hard-working pensioners with such disdain?
Torsten Bell
I do not think that anybody in the House is going to be treating pensioners with disdain. That is why the state pension will rise by 4.1% in April, why we have put £26 billion into the NHS and why we intend to learn the lessons of the last Administration’s failure to cut pensioner poverty. [Interruption.] I have already taken quite a few interventions, so I will make some progress.
As hon. Members know, winter fuel payments are now targeted at lower-income pensioners. The benefit is paid to over a million households who are receiving pension credit in England and Wales or on other income-related benefits. Pensioners in receipt of attendance allowance or disability living allowance can also qualify for pension credit. Crucially, those benefits do not reduce the pension credit award and can mean receiving additional support.
I am sure that we all want to see every pensioner get the support they are entitled to, but in recent years far too many pensioners have missed out, with over a third of eligible pensioners not claiming. So since September, we have been running the biggest ever pension credit take-up campaign, building on campaigns run by the previous Government, as the shadow Secretary of State mentioned. The campaign has included adverts on television, radio, social media and advertising screens in GPs’ surgeries. We have engaged with a wide range of stakeholders and partners including local councils, community groups and charities. I have certainly done that in Swansea, as I am sure hon. Members across the House have done in their constituencies.
Wendy Morton
The Minister is being generous in giving way. I welcome the fact that the Government have done work to raise awareness of pension credit, just as we did when we were in government, but that does not really reach the group of hard-working pensioners who are too proud to come forward and apply for pension credit; it is just not what they would do. The £300 winter fuel allowance was a lifeline that they have now lost.
Torsten Bell
The right hon. Lady makes a fair point. I will come back to what more work we need to do to understand the barriers to people applying for pension credit. Research shows, though, that awareness is the biggest barrier. We need to keep breaking down those barriers, but I recognise the point she makes.
Melanie Ward (Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that it is extraordinary to be lectured about responsible choices by members of the last Cabinet, whose irresponsible financial choices left this Government with a £22 billion black hole? We have to clean that up because of their irresponsible financial management.
Torsten Bell
My hon. Friend proves that, while Conservative Members may be disappointed by the quantity of hon. Members behind me, that is definitely made up for in quality.
Torsten Bell
I will make some progress, because otherwise we will be here for several days.
I take this opportunity to thank each and every organisation that supported the pension credit take-up campaign, as well as the many friends, neighbours and family members who looked out for pensioners and helped them to claim. A few weeks ago, we released the first data on the impact that the campaign has had. We have seen 235,000 pension credit applications in the 30 weeks since July, which is an 81% increase on the comparable period in 2022-23. On the question about processing rates, with over 500 additional staff allocated directly for that, we have seen a similar rise in the number of claims processed. Most importantly, that has led to almost 50,000 extra awards compared with the same period last year.
Mr Joshua Reynolds (Maidenhead) (LD)
What would the Minister say to residents in Maidenhead who have told me that they are not eligible for pension credit? He talks about responsible choices, but the choice those residents now have to make is whether to dip into their savings to pay for their energy bills or to turn off their heating at night. A Labour voter contacted me who had had to make exactly that decision, and she said that she will never vote Labour again. Is that really the change that the Government were elected to introduce?
Torsten Bell
No, the change that we were elected to introduce was to save our NHS and to return our economy to growth so that we can raise living standards for pensioners and for workers right across the country. That is the change that we were elected to deliver and that is what we are going to do.
Dr Murrison
The Minister is being generous in giving way; congratulations to him on making the best of a bad job. He knows that old people die in cold homes. In 2017, the Labour party did some research on which to attack the Conservatives, which showed that 4,000 old people would probably die in the event that we removed winter fuel allowance; we did not do that. I wonder whether he got his officials to repeat that research and, if so, what it showed.
Torsten Bell
All of us in this place should be slightly careful when talking about what is a highly sensitive subject. There is not robust analysis that can separate out different causes of excess mortality over the winter. [Interruption.] I will come on to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question. If we look at the excess mortality data for this winter, we see that deaths are actually down. It is hard to separate out the effects of different measures—[Interruption.] No, this is an important point, because some hon. Members have been looser with their language than they might have wanted to be in past debates. We have seen the level of deaths come down this winter. There are lots of things—
Several hon. Members rose—
Dr Evans
I am terribly grateful to the Minister. He made the point about there being 235,000 applications, which was great. In my written question, I asked about that and he came back and said 117,800 claims were awarded, but 114,500 were not. Those were clearly people who felt they were entitled to pension credit but who will now struggle. What support is available for those people, who are clearly right on the cusp and are now not eligible and do not have pension credit?
Torsten Bell
The hon. Member makes an important point. We should encourage people to apply, even if a percentage of those will always not qualify. The criteria under which people have been assessed are those put in place by the previous Administration for pension credit. However, he is right; we want as many people as possible to apply, even if some of them are not successful, for exactly the reason raised by the right hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton)—we need awareness of pension credit to be higher and we need to encourage claims, because a lot of people who are entitled are missing out. It is not always absolutely clear whether someone is entitled, for example if they are in receipt of attendance allowance.
All the progress since September that I have spoken about is a real achievement, but I am the first to say very clearly that it is far from job done. Far too many people are still missing out on pension credit. We are already building on this winter’s campaign, and that includes writing to all pensioners who make a new claim for housing benefit and who appear to be entitled to pension credit. In the longer term, this Government are committed to bringing together the administration of pension credit and housing benefit, making it easier for pensioners to get support. That was also a policy of previous Administrations at different times, even if delivering it was not prioritised.
We will also undertake new research on what helps boost take-up—that goes to the question asked by the right hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills. There is a slight misunderstanding about people wanting to apply but being reluctant—the evidence does not support that significantly. The key problem is awareness of the system.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
The Treasury always says to every new Government, “We have this jolly good idea. Just get rid of the winter fuel payment and save yourselves a lot of money.” We looked at that when I was in the Department and eventually rejected it based on two elements of the impact assessment. First, there was the point about those who were right on the cusp of poverty—80% of them, as has been mentioned, will be damaged by the policy. Secondly, there is pension credit take-up. We get hammered either way, because if we push for pensioners to take up pension credit, the savings are lost and we spend more, but if they do not take it up, they end up in poverty. That was why we rejected the idea and, I think, every other Government up until now have too. Will the Minister have another review of that and ask his team at the DWP whether they should reject this policy now, because it will not work?
Torsten Bell
On the question of savings, this measure will make savings, even taking into account the increase in take-up; the evidence of that is very clear. I will also just reflect on the right hon. Gentleman’s point that his party’s Government did not take up the opportunity that the Treasury presented to means-test winter fuel payments. The truth is that the last Government and the new Labour regime before that allowed pension credit to be eroded year after year by inflation. Since the period when he considered the measure, there has been over 50% inflation erosion, so the policy of the previous Government was to cut the winter fuel payment year after year. In real terms, I am afraid that is how inflation operates.
We will not just carry out research; we will put the evidence that it provides into practice. I welcome suggestions from right across the House on what more we can do to drive take-up of pension credit.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
My point relates to the cliff edge. Anne Addis from Cullompton is a 76-year-old widow. Her late husband’s Army pension pushed her just £15 over the pension credit threshold. That means that she is one of 130,000 people who are worse off than those on lower incomes who continue to qualify for pension credit. Will the Minister consider introducing a taper to get rid of that cliff edge?
Torsten Bell
We have all met constituents who raise this issue, and the hon. Member is right to say that there are challenges with the cliff edge. It is in the nature of the pension credit regime, because the regime is about a minimum income guarantee. People sometimes think about it as if it had a threshold, but it is about providing minimum guarantee of minimum income, so I do not think that that is an appropriate way forward, but I would be happy to discuss this with him, as it is always useful to discuss these issues.
Mark Pritchard
Does the Minister agree with the Resolution Foundation, which I think he knows very well, and its enlightening paper “Public Pivot” from January this year, which talks about big implications for living standards? He may well know that document, although he did not actually write that one, for a change. It mentions the winter fuel allowance and states:
“Tax rises on top of lacklustre economic growth make for a gloomy living standards outlook in 2025.”
Is there not a direct correlation between living standards and this cruel cut to the most vulnerable in our society, whether in Swansea West or in the Wrekin in Shropshire?
Torsten Bell
I thank the right hon. Member, not least for his kind words about a very impressive organisation that goes from strength to strength under far better leadership than it had in the past.
I do not want to get into the details of economic forecasts and living standards forecasts—[Interruption.] “Please do”, Members say. Right—the reason why forecasts of living standards and of growth are often lower than we might like at the moment is that, although we talk about forecasts as forward-looking measures, what they are often actually doing is looking backwards at the disastrous growth this country has seen—[Interruption.] Those are the facts about what is actually going on. The only way we are going to sort this country out is to get growth going once again, and that is what this Government are trying to do—[Interruption.] Well, we actually are. We are currently seeing significantly faster wage growth than we have seen for quite some time.
Several hon. Members rose—
Torsten Bell
I must make some progress. I have taken lots of interventions, and at some point even your patience may start to run out, Madam Deputy Speaker.
As hon. Members know, wider help is also available for pensioners. The warm home discount provides eligible low-income households across Great Britain with a £150 rebate on their winter energy bill. This winter we expect to find that over 3 million households, including over 1 million pensioners, have benefited. We have also set out plans to expand the scheme to cover a further 2.7 million households. We are providing £742 million in England to extend the household support fund for a further year, supporting all households, not just pensioners, with the cost of essentials. The devolved Governments will receive consequential funding through the Barnett formula.
Sarah Dyke (Glastonbury and Somerton) (LD)
Around 40% of properties in Glastonbury and Somerton are not connected to the gas grid. They are more expensive to heat, and people experience more fuel poverty as a result. Off-grid pensioners, who are particularly suffering, are obviously more reliant on their winter fuel payment. Will the Minister commit to developing a rural winter fuel poverty strategy for those pensioners, who are suffering now?
Torsten Bell
I have heard from many Members the point the hon. Member makes about the different ways people heat homes, particularly in certain parts of the country, including Northern Ireland. I would be happy to talk to her about that specific suggestion, having asked for suggestions earlier.
As I said earlier, our top priorities are to raise the state pension and to rescue the NHS, which pensioners in particular rely on. It is precisely because the Government have taken some difficult choices that we are committed to delivering on the triple lock throughout this Parliament. It is true that targeting winter fuel payments saves a bit over £1 billion a year, but spending on the state pension is forecast to rise by over £31 billion—
Torsten Bell
I have already engaged with the right hon. Member.
Spending on the state pension is forecast to rise by over £31 billion during this Parliament, which puts that into context. What does this mean for individual pensioners? The full new state pension is expected to rise by around £1,900 a year, and the basic state pension by around £1,500, benefiting over 12 million pensioners.
Then there is the health service, the state of which is the biggest betrayal of older generations today. The Conservatives left pensioners far too often not receiving the care and support they deserve and need. We are investing and reforming the English NHS through the 10-year plan by abolishing NHS England so Ministers are accountable for the health service once again. For pensioners who have spent their lives paying into the system, our priority is to ensure a resilient NHS that gives back to them at a time when they need it most.
James Wild
During the general election campaign, we on the Conservative side had the triple lock-plus policy to prevent pensioners in receipt of just a state pension from paying income tax. Does the Minister recognise that millions of pensioners in that position will have to start paying income tax, and is he happy with that?
Torsten Bell
The vast majority of pensioners started paying income tax under the previous Government because they abolished the age-related allowance for pensioners, so the taxing of pensioners was a decision taken by the previous Government. The majority of pensioners pay income tax because of decisions taken by the previous Government.
This is an Opposition day, so it would be rude not to talk about the Opposition. It is hard to know where to start—maybe with the hypocrisy. It comes in the general form of many Opposition Members claiming that they are in favour of a smaller state, but opposing this targeting of winter fuel payments. Worse, there is the more specific hypocrisy of campaigning against this change, but not being honest about whether they would reverse it.
Torsten Bell
I will if the hon. Member will tell me whether he plans to reverse that change in government.
Lewis Cocking
Does the Minister not agree that it is the hypocrisy from the Labour party, which did not include this policy in its manifesto at the general election?
Torsten Bell
While we are on broken promises, the hon. Member promised to tell me whether the Tory party policy is to reverse the change, and I have heard nothing on that front. I will come on to manifestos shortly.
There is the specific hypocrisy of the Opposition campaigning against the change having called for it in their own 2017 election manifesto. Back then, they attacked the winter fuel payment for being “paid regardless of need”, and that is before we get to the Leader of the Opposition’s bold plans to means-test the state pension—
Dame Harriett Baldwin
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister has just said that, as it is an Opposition day debate, he will speak exclusively about what the Opposition think and say. Is it your understanding, Madam Deputy Speaker, that it is in order for a Minister at the Dispatch Box not to defend the track record of his own Government?
Torsten Bell
I will return to the Conservatives’ policy, because I was just coming to the bold plans set out by the Leader of the Opposition to means-test the state pension. Apparently, she said,
“that’s exactly the sort of thing”
we “will look at.”
Several hon. Members rose—
Torsten Bell
No. Apparently, means-testing the winter fuel payment is beyond the pale, but means-testing the state pension—the bedrock of pensioners’ incomes—is the future. The Leader of the Opposition’s self-image is of a bold iconoclast, but means-testing the state pension is not bold; it is bonkers. Never mind what the Conservatives say they would do now, what about what they actually did? Let’s talk about pensioner poverty.
Torsten Bell
I will not. Pensioner poverty halved under the last Labour Government, but the Conservatives’ record was higher pensioner poverty—an increase of 300,000 people on their watch. We are not pretending that all the problems facing the country can be solved overnight, but we are honest that unless we tackle the big challenges and take some tough choices, they will not be solved at all. This is a Government raising the state pension, rescuing the NHS and delivering for pensioners every single day.