Leaving the EU: Infrastructure in Wales

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the effect of the UK leaving the EU on infrastructure in Wales.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Flello. It is also a pleasure to see so many colleagues from across Wales here today and, of course, the Minister, with whom we have debated these issues on many occasions. I am sure that he will enjoy listening to the contributions today.

We have heard the Prime Minister’s speech this morning. It is a great pity to me that she chose to make the speech outside, to the media and ambassadors, and not to this House. As I just said in the Chamber, that would not have happened under Churchill or Thatcher, but this lady does not seem to be for turning up to this place when it comes to this issue.

I have read what the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union had to say today. The Prime Minister did talk about the devolved Administrations and nations, which of course is to be welcomed. The Secretary of State has just said:

“We will aim to strengthen the Union between our four nations. We will continue to engage”—

whatever that means—

“with the devolved Administrations, and we will ensure that as powers are returned from Brussels to the UK, the right powers come to Westminster and the right powers are passed to Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast.”

I note that there was no clarity on devolved administrations in London and other places across the UK, but we are here to talk about Wales.

The Secretary of State listed the 12 principles of the plan. We are told that those are the totality of the plan promised to Parliament; he just confirmed that to me. There will be no White Paper. There will be no further plan. This is it: 12 principles. Among those, I do not see anything about regional funding or funding for infrastructure. There are some vague commitments on boosting science and innovation and making our exit smooth and orderly. However, when it comes to the fundamentals that affect the viability of the Welsh economy—the infrastructure we have to drive jobs and to allow business and trade, and all these things we are told will happen—we have absolutely nothing.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend and neighbour for giving way. Does he agree that, if Wales is to understand what the Prime Minister’s statement means in relation to Welsh infrastructure, a White Paper really must be published, so that we can debate it and there can be a wider public debate on the implications of the model she has put forward today?

[Stephen Doughty]

I absolutely agree. That is pretty fundamental when it comes to relationships with the devolved Administrations and legislatures. It is all very well to say “engage” in this vague way, but what does that mean? Is it simply window dressing? Are we in the devolved Administrations just to accept whatever the UK Government come up with, without any question or scrutiny? That is even harder to do without a White Paper.

There was much in it I disagreed with and contested, but the Scottish Government before their independence referendum published a very detailed White Paper. We simply do not have that. We are told that these 12 principles and this speech today are all we have before we enter one of the most fundamental changes to impact Wales and this country for generations to come.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Scottish Government. They produced a Brexit White Paper. The Welsh Government are about to publish their own Brexit White Paper. Is it not bizarre that the one Government responsible for delivering Brexit are not going to publish their own White Paper?

[Stephen Doughty]

We do not always agree on everything, but I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman on that—particularly when we see very different visions emerging from members of the Cabinet as to what a post-Brexit UK and Wales might look like. We heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggest in Germany that the UK is going to have a race to the bottom and be a completely deregulated tax haven on the fringes of Europe. That is not what I believe the people of Wales voted for. They voted for a strong economy with strong rights. They might have had different views on immigration or the democratic deficit there has been in parts of the EU, but they did not vote for a race to the bottom or for us turning into some sort of Gibraltar or one of our overseas territories on the fringes of Europe.

Leaving the EU will have a significant impact on the funding and development of infrastructure in Wales. We all know of examples in our constituencies of where European funding has delivered results, whether that is in community facilities in Butetown in my constituency, road infrastructure or science and innovation in our universities. We have no clear answers as to what will happen to that infrastructure support for Wales post-2020 and what will replace it. Businesses and investors need certainty about the infrastructure and environment that will support their long-term decisions, so it is vital that we have greater clarity. We need clarity in particular on issues such as loans made by the European Investment Bank, which I will come on to, and the specific assessment criteria that will be used to guarantee funding for projects signed after the autumn statement but while we remain a member of the EU.

I am sure that many hon. Members will mention individual projects. I will give some examples. EU funding in recent years has supported many infrastructure projects—for example, through £40 million towards Swansea University’s new Bay campus; nearly £4 million towards the development of the Wales coastal path; £9 million towards Rhyl harbour; and the dualling of the A465, the “heads of the valleys road”. Many prospective infrastructure projects are yet to be properly finalised, such as the Swansea Bay city deal, the North Wales growth deal, the tidal lagoons and the South Wales metro, which I raised in a previous debate and is of great concern to my constituents in Cardiff South and Penarth. Of course, the uncertainty around those projects has not only been caused by the referendum result; there are other factors at play, but that is a crucial part of whether those projects go forward.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Flello. My hon. Friend talks about specific projects. I particularly have in mind the £106 million that is earmarked from the European regional development fund for phase 2 of the South Wales metro. Does he agree that, for projects such as that, it is all about certainty, and that it is in the hands of the UK Government to provide that certainty?

[Stephen Doughty]

I absolutely agree. It is about not only certainty of the funding for projects but managing the growth of rapidly growing areas in south Wales. In my own city of Cardiff in particular, we need to know that we are going to have the transport infrastructure to cope with the anticipated demand. The South Wales metro is crucial to that.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have two brief points. One is about a specific project. My hon. Friend will be aware that, in Sarn in my constituency, significant transport investment brought a McArthurGlen designer outlet, ensuring that jobs and services were created. We can see real examples of where transport infrastructure works. In terms of planning and Government giving some reassurance, this situation places local authorities and the Welsh Government in extreme difficulty. Does he agree that it is all good and well the Welsh Government putting in processes for local development plans around highway infrastructure investment but, if we do not know what the funding is beyond 2019, it is virtually impossible for local government in Wales to deliver large-scale transport infrastructure projects?

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is about long-term certainty for not only businesses but residents and local authorities. He mentioned McArthurGlen, which I am sure many of us have used. Many people do not know that the transport infrastructure and hub there were supported by European funding, which made a huge difference to access to the lower part of his constituency and, indeed, to the M4 corridor.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Could we add to the comprehensive list of threatened infrastructure projects in Wales the Dŵr Uisce scheme—those are the Welsh and Irish words for water—between Ireland and Wales, which is very exciting? It uses water technology in a very effective, environmentally clean way. That will be in a special category, because if Brexit goes ahead, half of the scheme will be in the EU and half of it will be outside it. Does my hon. Friend foresee the chaos and the serious threat to that valuable scheme that would result?

[Stephen Doughty]

Indeed. It is about the detail of these types of project. I was not aware of that particular one, but it is a very good example. Many of us in Wales have personal family connections to Ireland. We certainly have connections in our constituencies. More importantly, there are crucial connections between our economies, services and infrastructure; my hon. Friend makes a valid point.

The EU’s structural funds over the past 30 years have been vital in supporting regional development and the growth of the Welsh economy. They have supported people into work and training, youth employment, research and innovation, business competitiveness, renewable energy and energy efficiency, connectivity and urban development. The central aim of the current structural funds programmes is to create an environment that will support economic growth and jobs. Obviously, there are huge implications if we are not part of that.

Under the current round of structural funds, which runs from 2014 to 2020, Wales has been allocated almost £2 billion, with £1.6 billion going to west Wales and the valleys and more than £325 million going to east Wales. In total, along with match funding, the current round of structural funds is expected to support total investment in Wales of approximately £3 billion. Indeed, research undertaken by Cardiff University’s Wales Governance Centre prior to the referendum concluded that the £658 million of EU funding for Wales from the common agricultural policy and the European structural funds made Wales a net beneficiary of EU funding. In 2014, the estimated net benefit from the EU for Wales was around £245 million. That is equal to about 0.4% of Welsh GDP—it equates to around £79 per head—in 2014.

I talked about the history of these investments. That is the third time that west Wales and the valleys have qualified for the highest level of structural fund support, which is available to regions in the EU that qualify with GDP per head that is less than 75% of the EU average. I have long supported that principle and am yet to be clear, in any way, what the UK Government’s plan is for replacing those structural funds to reduce some of the inequalities that are built into some of our post-industrial economies in particular and rural areas. The spending has been aimed at supporting projects intended to transform the prospects of the most marginalised and vulnerable, to lead to increases in productivity and growth and to invest in the future of our young people in Wales.

Following the vote to leave the European Union, investment in infrastructure in Wales has already experienced some setbacks, with postponements of some asset sales and a downsizing of some projects, according to ratings agency Standard & Poor’s. In a broader note to clients in September, Standard & Poor’s stated that the biggest risks for infrastructure companies could be a likely reduction in capital investment—both domestic and foreign direct investment.

I want to mention the South Wales metro again. It would be useful to know whether the Minister can add any clarity on this. The metro is crucial to my own constituency and the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, has described it as “a catalyst for transforming” the Welsh economy. He made that clear when he met the Commission in December to seek assurances that it will continue to support the project and that it will not be affected by the Brexit negotiations.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

The metro is absolutely crucial for connectivity and economic development in my constituency, too. Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be particularly helpful today if the Minister could be crystal clear that any shortfall is guaranteed by the UK Government, including beyond 2020?

[Stephen Doughty]

Absolutely. We need that sort of clarity, which is clearly absent from the so-called plan that has been put before us today by the Prime Minister and the Brexit Secretary. I emphasise that the metro is far more than just a transport scheme—it is a vehicle for transforming the economic and social prospects of many of our communities. It will deliver jobs and connectivity as well as those faster journey times and more frequent services that we all want to see.

It is also of note that, in addition to the funds I have mentioned, at present both public and private organisations in Wales can bid directly to the European Commission for funding from other programmes such as the Connecting Europe Facility and Horizon 2020, which supports many of our academic research projects. Those can also provide funding for infrastructure projects. The House of Commons Library suggested that it is difficult to quantify the funding from each of the direct funding programmes but, to give an idea of the scale, the CEF fund is worth €30.4 billion in total over the period 2014 to 2020. That covers areas such as transport, energy, and telecoms. CEF projects currently funded in Wales include the South Wales railway electrification studies that were conducted around the electrification programme. The Welsh Government and Welsh ports are also in discussions—here, again, are the links with Ireland—with the Irish Government and Irish ports on access to the “motorways of the sea” funding, which can be used to invest in crucial port infrastructure and hinterland connections to ports.

The Horizon 2020 programme has awarded €40 million of grants to organisations in Wales, as of 23 February 2016, and the predecessor to Horizon 2020—the seventh framework programme—allocated €145 million to organisations in Wales. We absolutely need that certainty. I have spoken to many academics locally who are deeply concerned about their ability to participate in these cross-European infrastructure projects based in the academic sector. The issue is not just what that valuable research and co-operation can engender in terms of knowledge and understanding of crucial issues, but the link to products and the frontline economy. Many businesses in my community, particularly in some of the business parks, have strong links with the high tech and biotech industries that have developed around universities such as Cardiff University.

I mentioned the European Investment Bank. I hope that the Minister can provide some clarity about what Wales’s relationship could be post-2020. The European Investment Bank is a significant source of finance for UK infrastructure projects. In 2015 the lending to the UK amounted to €7.7 billion, of which two thirds was provided for infrastructure. Programmes in Wales included €340 million for Welsh Water to make improvements to water supply and wastewater collection, and €174 million for Wales & West Utilities to upgrade and expand gas distribution networks. This funding is integral not only to those high-profile road junctions and road projects and things such as the South Wales metro, but to the utilities that ensure the functioning of our communities.

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Flello. After last week’s review from Charles Hendry on tidal lagoons, I was very proud that he noted the enthusiasm and confidence that the city has had in the tidal bay project. That enthusiasm overflows into the city bay region. In these uncertain times, is now not the time for the Government to commit the important resources in order to take forward these exciting plans, which could see Wales develop as a world-renowned “first” in so many of the fields in respect of tidal power?

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. She knows that I have long supported the principle of tidal power coming from the Severn estuary. There have been concerns about some of the projects proposed, but I am interested in and support the proposals for tidal lagoons—obviously each needs to be judged on its own merits—and particularly the Swansea one. So much work has gone into that and it is crucial that we now provide certainty on delivery and funding to enable it to go ahead.

Briefly, the chief of the EIB, Werner Hoyer, stated in October:

“Even if we find a way to continue lending in the UK, I am absolutely sure that the enormous volumes we have achieved over the last couple of years cannot be maintained”.

What clarity can the Minister offer on that issue in particular?

In his conference speech, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that beyond the autumn statement the Treasury would offer a guarantee to bidders whose projects

“meet UK priorities and value for money criteria”.

It is absolutely crucial that the Government outline what to

“meet UK priorities and value for money”

mean and whether that will cover projects currently funded by the EU. I hope that we will have some clarification on that, too. With today’s announcement of a hard Brexit package, in an attempt to appease certain elements in the Prime Minister’s party—as I said earlier, her Chancellor appears intent on pursuing some sort of trade war or commercial war with our European partners—it has become clearer and clearer that those who may suffer will be the ordinary people, the ordinary businesses and the ordinary working people the length and breadth of Wales.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am grateful, again, to my hon. Friend for giving way. He makes some important points about new infrastructure. Are there not also serious implications for existing infrastructure, including our industrial base—for example, the Ford motor plant in Bridgend—if we are seriously saying that we are not interested in staying in the single market? Should the Minister not be telling us how he is going to ensure that plants such as Ford’s have a future in relation to the integrated way in which motor cars are made across Europe?

[Stephen Doughty]

Absolutely. The same could apply to the steel industry. Companies such as Celsa, in my own constituency, that are part of a European operation have plants in many places.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Before my hon. Friend moves off this point—Airbus is probably the best example. If a wing is not finished, the workers will follow the wing, whether to Bremen or France, to make sure that that is done. Are we really saying that they will have to fill out forms, do all sorts of things and wait God knows how many weeks for that to happen? The problem is that we live in a very uncertain climate at the moment.

[Stephen Doughty]

I absolutely agree. Airbus is always an excellent example and is a crucial player in the Welsh economy, not only in the manufacturing of the wings and aircraft components, but in its defence and space business, which is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) but employs many people from my own constituency. Let us not forget that this is about not just the infrastructure funding that has come from outside, from European funds, but the infrastructure funding decisions that major companies make themselves and whether those will be put at risk when companies are not sure about the future.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

It is also about giving Welsh workers confidence. Taking up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) about Ford, there is great anxiety in the plant about the future and security of their jobs. These are highly skilled and highly paid jobs. If workers do not know that they can be assured of long-term employment, they are not going to invest and spend, and we need that to keep the Welsh economy turning.

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend makes a crucial point. I am delighted that the top focus of the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, and the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, Ken Skates, and others, has been on ensuring that the Welsh Government have continued to provide certainty where they can, whether that is to industry, infrastructure or building projects. Clearly, we need to keep investing—whether that is in schools and hospitals, as is happening in my constituency, in supporting businesses or in the work being done to support the steel industry—and that can help to provide confidence. However, without clarity on these very large sums of money and on the UK Government’s intentions in that regard, we can only go so far in terms of what Wales is able to do.

I hope that the Minister can give us clarity today. We need guarantees that funding will continue for Welsh infrastructure following any deal to leave the European Union. Wales voted to leave the EU—although not in my constituency—but it did not vote to see investment in Wales cut by a UK Government, and we need those assurances urgently.

Things may work out for us in the long term. Undoubtedly our country, Wales—and this country, Britain—have a history of coming together in difficult circumstances and of finding a way forward for our people when they are faced with difficult challenges. However, the plan may turn out to be reckless, with huge consequences for our economy, jobs and the unity of our country. The Prime Minister should have been here today to account for the plan. I am glad that the Minister is here, and I hope to hear answers to the questions that I and other colleagues raise today.

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[Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Flello. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) on securing this debate and on outlining a powerful case. He made the point that it is important that powers returning to the UK are devolved to Wales to help the Welsh Government to drive forward the regeneration of Wales. He also mentioned the current programme of EU funding, which involves some £3 billion in investment across Wales. In 2014 alone, the net benefit to Wales was £245 million, which demonstrates exactly how much benefit Wales gets from the European Union. He was right to point out that we heard vague commitments from the Prime Minister today, but nothing to give certainty on the regeneration infrastructure that Wales needs to continue. He was also right to point out that Wales did not vote for cuts to regeneration infrastructure projects. That is developing from the chaos unfolding before us.

Hon. Members have made significant points clarifying what risks our exit from the European Union will bring to infrastructure in their constituencies and across Wales. We heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) and for Cardiff South and Penarth about Airbus, Ford, Celsa and many other firms that develop their products across Europe, and the major and problematic impact that a hard Brexit would have on those businesses and many others.

We heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Newport East (Jessica Morden), for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) and for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) about infrastructure projects such as the metro, electrification of the valley lines and the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) outlined the unique issues facing Wales from our exit from the EU, and the need for a red, white and green project to develop policies that take account of our unique heritage. We also heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore), who discussed the impact that uncertainty will have on local government’s ability to deliver larger-scale projects. My hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) stated that, although he respects the result of the referendum, whether we are leave or remain, we need a clear vision. As he pointed out, that is sadly lacking in this Prime Minister, who seems fixated on internal factions within the Tory party.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) highlighted the impact that European funding has had on her constituency, including a total of £40 million within the Bridgend County Borough Council area since 2000 for educational and infrastructure projects. As in many constituencies across Wales, the strategic development sites have supported small and medium-sized enterprises. There have also been town centre enhancements, which again are common in lots of constituencies across south Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Christina Rees) talked about the fact that Wales is affected by deindustrialisation and a lack of investment that dates back to the ’80s and ’90s. She said that Wales still has a significant need for structural funds and spoke about projects such as the integrated transport hubs, which again are regeneration projects that have happened in constituencies across south Wales.

In our last debate in this Chamber just before Christmas, I asked the Minister a number of questions, which unfortunately he did not answer. I say to him today that I approach this debate with a genuine desire to have a response from the Minister on the record. I expect him to tell me that he has already answered some of my questions, so, with the greatest of respect, I hope that he will have no problem repeating and clarifying that information and putting it on the record today.

I have no desire to use this debate for gamesmanship or to score cheap political points. The impact of the exit from the European Union on our constituencies and on Wales as a whole is far too important for that. But we need answers. Leaving the European Union will have a significant impact on the funding and development of infrastructure across Wales. That is in absolutely no doubt.

Wales has received more than £2 billion of capital investment in social housing, transport, energy, water and education through the European Investment Bank in the past decade. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth outlined, between 2014 and 2020, £1.9 billion of European structural funds will have driven total investment of almost £3 billion across Wales.

The benefits of that European investment have been seen in major projects, such as the Cardiff University Brain Research Imaging Centre, the Menai Science Park, the Swansea University Bay Campus in the Neath-Port Talbot area, and the Deep Green marine energy technology. In my constituency, we have seen the dualling of the A465, the heads of the valleys road, which historically has had a poor safety record and links west Wales, across the top of the south Wales valleys, to the midlands, so it is a key route for business. We have also seen the investment in jobs created in our communities and various funding streams for social programmes to support the most marginalised and vulnerable in our society.

As those facts demonstrate and as we have heard from hon. Members today, Wales has done incredibly well from European funds and support. So there are now serious and vital questions that the Government need to answer about what will happen to infrastructure support for Wales post-2020 and about what will replace EU funding.

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend is making a strong speech and summarising many of the key challenges, specifically the challenges about infrastructure funding. However, does he share my worry that there is a wider challenge? In the Chancellor’s comments the other day, translated I believe from German, he said that

“we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness. And you can be sure we will do whatever we have to do.”

Does my hon. Friend worry that we may be moving away from a programme of investment to reduce inequality and to focus on jobs, to one of a race to the bottom on tax, regulation and all those issues, which would damage the prospects for Welsh workers and businesses?

[Gerald Jones]

I do indeed; that is a very real concern. My hon. Friend highlights some of the chaos in the Government’s thinking on this matter. I hope that we will hear more from the Government in the near future to end the uncertainty and to provide some clarity about exactly what they intend to do.

During the referendum, we were assured by leave campaigners, including a number of senior Tory Ministers, that the UK and Wales would not lose out as a result of our exiting the EU. It is now time for the Government to deliver on the assurances that were given. Businesses and investors need certainty about the infrastructure and environment that will support their long-term decisions, so it is vital that the Government now make it clear how they will offset the negative consequences of EU exit for infrastructure in Wales. I hope that the Minister can give some clarity on what funding streams he envisages will replace EU funding post-2020, and outline his Department’s assessment of how much funding there will be.

Furthermore, even before we reach 2020, we need clarity on the guarantee made by the Chancellor, which was mentioned by the Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales in the media. To be fair, the Chancellor has announced that the Treasury will guarantee all multi-year EU business funding agreed before our exit. However, the detail appears to be a little more complex. For what it is worth, the Treasury said that it will

“put in place arrangements for assessing whether to guarantee funding for specific structural and investment fund projects that might be signed after the [2016] Autumn Statement but while we remain a member of the EU. Further details will be provided ahead of the Autumn Statement.”

However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Neath commented, the specific assessment criteria mentioned in the Treasury’s statement were not provided ahead of the autumn statement and they have not been formally put on the record or disclosed in specific terms.

The Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales have repeated the claim that all projects before we leave the EU are secure, but can the Minister now say—purely for clarity and to have it on the record—what the assessment criteria will be to guarantee funding for specific projects that are signed between now and when we leave the EU? Can he also be clear exactly what will be used to assess that and which projects, if any, he expects not to pass that assessment?

Can the Minister also pledge today to guarantee loans made by the EIB to projects in Wales before we leave the EU? When my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens), who is the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, raised that issue at the last Welsh questions, the Secretary of State for Wales said only:

“Our negotiations with the EIB will run in parallel with our negotiations with the European Commission. The hon. Lady has a responsibility to try to instil confidence in investment in Wales, not to undermine it.”—[Official Report, 30 November 2016; Vol. 617, c. 1505.]

To accuse the Opposition of undermining investor confidence in Wales simply by scrutinising the Government and asking them to reveal to Members, investors and the Welsh public what their plans are is, clearly, remarkable.

Consequently, in a spirit of openness and constructive dialogue on this most crucial of issues, will the Minister tell us whether the Government plan to guarantee loans made by the EIB to projects in Wales before we leave the EU? If not, what assessment has been made of the projects that will not be underwritten, the potential cost of that to the Welsh economy and what jobs may be at risk as a result?

Time is marching on and the longer the uncertainty goes on, the more detriment will be caused to projects, businesses and communities across Wales. I hope that the Minister will provide some answers this afternoon to allay the genuine and growing fears that we now hear almost daily. Will he also take this opportunity specifically to address the issue of the funding received from the European Territorial Cooperation programmes, which provide opportunities for regions in the EU to work together to address common social, economic and environmental challenges? Wales has benefited hugely from that. Examples of other such projects include the Ireland Wales programme, the Atlantic Area programme, the North West Europe programme, Interreg Europe, the European Spatial Planning Observation Network and Interact, which are worth billions of pounds to Wales. Will the Minister clarify what discussions the Government have had about whether the UK, outside the EU, would be eligible for any of those programmes? If it is not eligible and if Wales is no longer able to secure funding through those EU initiatives, what plans do the Government have to replace the funding?

Long-term infrastructure investment in Wales is vital for the future of our economy, jobs, investment and growth. The Government have a responsibility to ensure that we get the best possible deal from Brexit. It is not good enough just to say that we will get the best deal, whatever that means. Our constituents, businesses and investors need details of what funding will be available, what infrastructure projects will go ahead and what criteria other projects will have to meet before they can go ahead.

The Minister needs to get away from the rhetoric of our previous debates and earnestly give some answers today. I hope that he will take this opportunity to provide us with some answers. I hope that he appreciates how important these decisions and this debate is.

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[Guto Bebb]

As the announcement was made only today, it would be incorrect of me to respond immediately to the question of special status for west Wales ports. The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right that decisions relating to Interreg funding will remain with the British Government but, on EU structural funds in a Welsh context, I hope that I have offered the clarity that the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth requested.

It is crucial to understand that the investment in the south Wales metro is part and parcel of the electrification of the Great Western main line, because unless that line is electrified the metro system will not work as we envisage. Across the divide in this debate, we should at least recognise that the investment being made in rail infrastructure in Wales, both north and south, is both to be welcomed and crucial.

[Stephen Doughty]

The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) made is absolutely crucial, and it raises a wider question about what the suggestion of engagement, with both the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly, means. It is not clear, is it, whether if we did not like parts of the deal—solutions, for example, regarding the common British-Irish travel area—we could dispute, veto or change them in some way? Or is it a like-it-or-lump-it strategy?

[Guto Bebb]

I sincerely hope it would not be a like-it-or-lump-it strategy, because that would not be proper engagement. Proper engagement means listening to the arguments being made by the devolved authorities and taking their views into account. It is clear that a decision will have to be made on a UK basis. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman is not arguing that we should have different settlements for different parts of the UK in relation to exiting the European Union.

We entered the European Union as a United Kingdom and I suspect we will leave as a United Kingdom, but it is imperative in that debate that we take on board the arguments being made by the devolved Administrations. It is important to highlight that we, as a Government, have set up Joint Ministerial Committees to ensure that those discussions happen on a Minister-to-Minister basis. I have been part of those discussions, as a representative of the Wales Office. So this is not a case of attempting a Westminster fix that ignores the views of the devolved Administrations; it is a genuine attempt to take on board the concerns of those Administrations, to ensure that we come up with an approach that reflects the complexities of the United Kingdom.

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[Stephen Doughty]

Thank you, Mr Flello. I am conscious of the time. I thank the Minister for his comments. He has provided some helpful clarifications, but what is clear from all the comments today is that there are real-world impacts on jobs and businesses in our communities in all parts of Wales. The suggestion that we have had the totality of the plan we will receive is simply not good enough. We need more clarity. The Minister has provided some today, but not enough in some areas. That is why we need a Government White Paper so that we can all understand the future for Wales in the Brexit process.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the effect of the UK leaving the EU on infrastructure in Wales.

Exiting the EU: Businesses in Wales

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2016 Westminster Hall

[Ian C. Lucas]

As my hon. Friend makes clear, there will be a system in due course and the issue will be managed, but we have no idea what the system will be. More importantly, the businesses that will be required to operate it have no idea. This is a massive task. If we are to have a new system—not the points-based immigration system that applies to citizens from outside the EU—the Government must tell business what that will look like, what requirements and burdens they will impose on employers and where responsibility lies.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is making a strong speech.

Individuals are also incredibly affected, including constituents of mine who have found that contracts they were meant to be working on in other EU member states in collaborations, and vice versa, have been cancelled because of the precautionary principle, given the uncertainty about what will happen and the risk of not being able to work on the projects in the next five or six years.

[Ian C. Lucas]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The clock is ticking on all these issues—I will sit down shortly because several of my hon. Friends want to make speeches—but what is really ticking is the clock for the Government. It is their responsibility to implement the policy they wish to see on these important matters, which could ultimately undermine confidence in business in our communities and affect the prosperity of our constituents.

We need a bit of straightforward clarity from the Government about the mechanics of what the new systems will look like, and we need engagement from the Government. That is not just about listening but about beginning to tell business what its responsibilities will be and what post-Brexit Wales will look like. That responsibility rests firmly with the Government, who have brought the situation about, and that must be made clear to our constituents. We need to have that clarity as soon as possible.

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[Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) on securing this important debate.

The uncertainties of leaving the European Union are hazardous and wide ranging. Structural funding, environmental protections and workers’ rights, trade with the EU and the impact on the economy and growth are all areas of concern for the businesses and people of Wales. The lack of clarity is both frustrating and worrying, as the absence of a plan creates an inertia that stalls economic growth and investment. Businesses in Wales have already suffered from the impact of austerity and poor economic UK growth since 2010.

The Office for Budget Responsibility has estimated that cumulative potential output growth will be 2.4 per- centage points lower than it would otherwise have been in 2021 had the referendum not happened. Growth forecasts from the consultancy company Oxford Economics have been downgraded in all regions, with growth in Wales expected to be about 0.25 percentage points lower than the pre-referendum forecast.

Structural funding has played an important role in the regeneration of a post-industrial Wales. The statistics may suggest that it has struggled to achieve its aim of increasing GDP and wealth, but that is not the whole story. When I visit communities across my constituency and the wider region, I find vibrancy, tenacity and life, despite hardship and economic decline. In the last round of funding, projects financed through our membership of the European Union across Neath Port Talbot have helped to launch 485 businesses, support 7,300 people into work, create 1,355 jobs, provide 14,870 qualifications and enable close to 5,000 people to complete an EU-funded apprenticeship—all in that county borough alone.

Projects such as the £22 million valleys regional park have built the tourism infrastructure of my constituency, and more and more visitors are coming to enjoy the beautiful scenery of Gnoll country park and the industrial heritage of Aberdulais Falls. The regional essential skills scheme has helped thousands of people to acquire the competencies necessary to return to work. Neath Port Talbot has also been a lead partner on the pioneering transitional employment initiative, Workways.

I must pay tribute at this point to the leader of Neath Port Talbot Council, Ali Thomas, who last night announced that he will be standing down after many years of service. In fact, he took over from the previous leader, Derek Vaughan, who went on to become our Labour MEP. They are two great men of Neath.

[Stephen Doughty]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, even with the prospect of the European Parliament seats for Wales being abolished, Derek Vaughan continues to fight for Wales and for all of us to secure the best deals on European funding for our constituencies?

[Christina Rees]

I absolutely agree that Degsy, as he is known in Neath, is continuing to fight Wales’s corner. He is vice-chair of the European Parliament’s budgetary control committee, so he has great influence in Europe.

Neath Port Talbot has been the lead partner on the pioneering transitional employment initiative, Workways, which has helped to tackle barriers that prevent individuals from finding or returning to employment by supporting the job search, CV writing and interview skills, and access to training. The Workways project would never have happened without EU structural funds. It received a contribution of £16.7 million towards its overall costs. The scheme is held in such high regard that a second phase has been funded—Workways Plus—which began in April this year and will support at least a further 1,000 people into employment.

Swansea University’s science and innovation campus, the Bay campus, which has had a substantial impact on Neath and the region, simply would not have happened without the £95 million of funding received from the European Union. Derek Vaughan’s legacy before he left as leader of Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council was to make sure that the campus was just inside the council area.

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[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe, and to follow the excellent speeches by colleagues from Wales. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) on securing this debate. We have all been listening to and hearing the concerns of businesses in our constituencies, which is why we are here today. I hope the Minister will have some helpful responses to the concerns that we have raised.

I have been listening to businesses in my constituency of Cardiff South and Penarth. I have spoken to small, large and medium-sized businesses and to individuals who have raised concerns with me at surgeries, on the doorstep and on many other occasions. There is a lot of concern. The issue is not minor; it comes up again and again. There is a willingness to get on and make things work, but there are a lot of questions and a lot of uncertainty.

Having listened to all those concerns, I am not prepared to support a blank cheque for the Government in activating article 50, particularly when there is so little information available about the plan. Members may be interested to know that the Brexit Secretary has been speaking to the Brexit Committee while we have been sitting; he has confirmed that no plan will be published until February at the latest, because, apparently, a lot of research and policy work needs to be done. He says there will be a transitional deal only if necessary. That is concerning. When in February? How late? If we are talking about activating article 50 on 31 March, we will not get any clarity on the Government’s plans until very late in February.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

I do not think there is anything new in what the Secretary of State has said. Did not the Opposition accept the argument that article 50 will be triggered by the end of March on production of a plan before that?

[Stephen Doughty]

If the Minister checks the voting list, he will see which way I voted on that matter. I am speaking about my own views on this issue and I certainly have a great deal of concern about the lack of information.

[Geraint Davies]

Does my hon. Friend also accept that even if we did agree to this last minute plan, whatever it is, once article 50 is triggered the 27 EU countries will decide to give us what they want, not what is in the plan?

[Stephen Doughty]

I have a great many concerns about the negotiating process, but I want to turn to three areas of particular concern that businesses have raised with me: regional funding, the single market and the situation for universities.

It is worth reflecting, as some colleagues have, on the importance of the scale on which businesses engage in the single market. There are 191,000 jobs dependent on EU trade, and that affects everything from steel to the high-tech products in my constituency; 500 firms in Wales export more than £5 billion annually to other EU member states and 450 firms from other EU member states, located in Wales, employ more than 50,000 people.

Several hon. Members have spoken about funding and I will come on to that, but, without referencing specific names, the sorts of things I have been told about include workers’ rights to travel to engage in cross-European projects; contracts, which I mentioned in an intervention; and concerns about research collaboration and major long-term projects being put at risk. The message is very clear that businesses do not want a hard Brexit, if there is to be a Brexit. They want it to be as soft as possible and are particularly concerned about tariffs and access to the single market. Those concerns are constantly raised with me.

Businesses were positive with me about the work that the Welsh Labour Government are doing to try to provide some certainty and optimism in the economy in uncertain times. There is particular praise for the work of the First Minister and Economy Secretary, who went to the United States and Japan to stand up for Welsh businesses and the links that we have with those two markets. Whether it is a case of fighting for funding for the south Wales metro or for other projects, the Welsh Assembly Government are trying to ensure that some positive things happen during the uncertainty.

There is also continued investment in infrastructure projects and building, including a lot going on in Cardiff at the moment. There is the city centre redevelopment; we have plans for new stations; we have an enterprise zone, where there is a lot of investment; and—to give credit—there is some degree of cross-party agreement on a city deal. It is vital that such investment in infrastructure and business should continue, particularly now while there is a lot of uncertainty.

[Wayne David]

We understand that the Government have given some assurances about the continuation of what would have been European funding. Does my hon. Friend share my concern about the fact that the Government are also talking about changing expenditure priorities?

[Stephen Doughty]

I do. I have yet to be convinced about the certainty on levels of funding, let alone the sectors. That will be greatly worrying to many in my constituency. It is worth reflecting on what the Office for Budget Responsibility said in the economic and fiscal outlook published in November: that as a result of the referendum decision, the potential output growth will be 2.4 percentage points lower than it would have otherwise been in 2021 without the referendum. As to the impact on Wales, the House of Commons Library briefing mentions that there could be

“lower business investment…the impact of a less open economy on productivity…a reduction in investment in research and development”

and

“costs associated with adjustments to new regulations or new markets”.

There will obviously be costs and changes: how are they to be minimised?

On regional funding, €5 billion for Wales is planned for 2014 to 2020, and potentially £2.7 billion post-2020. I still do not feel that we have had the guarantees from the Treasury. Why does that matter? It matters for specific projects such as the south Wales metro, which is vital for people’s ability to get around, do business, get to work and take advantage of opportunities in my constituency and the whole south Wales area.

We might be able to achieve those things in part outside the south Wales metro project. I have supported, for example, the proposals for a St Mellons parkway station, which could be funded by other means. There is a good degree of cross-party agreement about the importance of Network Rail and Department for Transport funding for it. However, fundamentally, the south Wales metro has the potential to be a transformative scheme for the south Wales economy. I am pleased that the First Minister was in Brussels arguing for the £110 million-worth of funding. The European Commission was very clear in saying that it could not comment about what would happen after the UK leaves. Such uncertainty is causing concern, so perhaps the Minister will provide some assurances—particularly about that project, which is so crucial to the economy of south Wales.

I have mentioned concerns about access to the single market, which will affect all businesses. I should be particularly worried if we were to consider putting tariffs on goods produced in Wales. The First Minister has made it clear that that is a red line for him. It would affect industries such as the steel industry in my constituency.

I have spoken many times in this Chamber about companies such as Celsa, based on my patch. It does significant amounts of exporting. It is a European company from Catalonia in Spain and works across the European Union. Forty per cent. of direct sales of British and Welsh steel go to the EU. That is similar to the overall total—41% of total goods exports from Wales go to the EU. What assurances can the Minister give to companies such as Celsa that export so much to the EU, let alone other places? What tariffs might they face in the future? What additional trade restrictions might they face?

We have heard a lot of talk about Airbus, which also has a major facility, Airbus Defence and Space, in a neighbouring constituency to mine, Newport West, where a number of my constituents work. Concerns are being expressed about European collaboration on space projects. High tech is an important growth industry in which the UK has been investing more. I should hate such jobs to be lost from our communities—let alone the wider aerospace industry in south Wales.

I want finally to discuss universities. The total value of future research income to Cardiff University, from the seventh framework programme and Horizon 2020 up to July 2016, was £23.5 million, with further applications in the pipeline of up to £15.7 million; work from the European structural fund was worth £23.6 million, plus a potential £35.2 million of projects in development. Those are significant sums.

To give an idea of the sorts of projects involved, I should say that they include the Cardiff University brain research imaging centre, which is doing pioneering work on dementia, multiple sclerosis and other neurological conditions. We should be proud that that work is going on in our capital city. Many researchers from my constituency work in and around the university. What if such things are to be put at risk? I am hearing a lot of concern from the university sector in my area, from individual workers and universities. What assurances can the Minister give?

[Christina Rees]

There is uncertainty about whether the excellent Erasmus programme in which students from Wales can study in Europe will continue. It has benefited many students from my constituency, and, I am sure, from across Wales.

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point: 18% of Cardiff University’s home undergraduates are defined as internationally mobile—so they have taken part in Erasmus or one of the other types of exchange schemes, often with other European countries. That adds to their value—their opportunities to contribute to the global economy in the future and bring value to the economy in Wales. That is even before we get on to considering the contribution of international students, researchers and experts to our university sector in Wales. What assurances can the Minister give that those opportunities will not be lost in future for the Welsh university sector?

I have outlined three key areas about which concerns have been raised with me. I hope that the Minister will provide some reassurances and guidance for those who have expressed them. It is clear that this is an uncertain time for all involved. I am not happy for the Government to be given a blank cheque over the negotiations. I want to secure the best deal for businesses, individuals and the academic sector in my constituency and Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I will of course give way to my Parliamentary Private Secretary—no, had I better not. Certainly, the debate has been interesting, but hon. Members are well aware that Members have responsibilities in different parts of the House and are in different debates that are going on, and it is unworthy of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) to try to score that political point.

Going back to the success of the Welsh economy, we need to identify the fact that small businesses are a great part of that success story. Small businesses are growing. Indeed, we have seen the figures that show that small businesses’ growth in turnover in Wales has been among the best in the UK during the past year. The best performing part of the entire UK has been small businesses in Cardiff, which have enjoyed 12% growth in turnover, outpacing the situation in London. I pay tribute to all small businesses in Cardiff that have been part of that success story.

[Stephen Doughty]

I pay tribute to them, too, as I did in my speech. On the Minister’s earlier comments, to be fair, I did make it very clear that there had been work on the city deal and on the enterprise zone, and that kind of constructive work needs to continue through this period of uncertainty. Does he agree that the very real concerns being raised by a number of businesses in my constituency, despite that growth, are valid and need to be answered?

[Guto Bebb]

As a Minister in the Wales Office, I fully accept that small businesses have concerns—indeed, all businesses in all sectors of the economy in Wales have concerns—but they also see opportunities, and we have heard precious little on those opportunities in this debate. The Secretary of State for Wales and I have been out dealing with stakeholders regularly—those in the farming industry, the third sector, the university sector and the further education sector; businesses small and large; the Confederation of British Industry; the Institute of Directors; and the Federation of Small Businesses. We have been talking to all those stakeholders. We have been doing that because this change—the decision made by the people of Wales and the United Kingdom to leave the European Union—is huge, so it is imperative that we talk to individuals, businesses and stakeholders who will be affected.

A Government who were arrogant enough to think that they had all the answers are not a Government I would want to be a part of. The fantastic thing about my involvement in the Wales Office since March has been the opportunity to meet so many stakeholders in Wales and listen to what they want from the decision that was made to leave the European Union.

Wales Bill

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Monday 12th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I think that the hon. Gentleman is missing the point. If he has read the Silk report, he will recognise the complexities that even Silk has highlighted. In relation to those complexities, we are negotiating with the Welsh Government in a positive, constructive environment. The new clause and the amendment do not meet the technical requirements, because their provisions would effectively stop at the administrative border. As the hon. Gentleman knows, many of the trains running in and out of his constituency come to and from England. Accepting the new clauses and the amendment would not meet the criteria that he seeks to meet.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Alun Cairns]

I will give way briefly, but I want to make some progress after that.

[Stephen Doughty]

The Secretary of State still has not answered the question. Does he not believe that, at the very least, there should be a level playing field? It seems that while a German company can run rail services in Wales, a United Kingdom company—let alone a co-operative or a partnership—would be prohibited from running the Welsh rail franchise.

[Alun Cairns]

The OJEU advert has been made for the franchise. Good progress is being made and we wish to continue in the spirit in which the Welsh Government have made that advert—in the delicate and sensitive negotiations taking place, in the positive, constructive environment that already exists.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Flynn]

I warmly welcome my hon. Friend’s point. Again, the Government are blind to the prospects for Wales in the area of renewable energy, particularly in hydro. We can rely on many factors, including the tide and the rain. Indeed, 2,200 MV of electricity are produced in Wales via hydro.

[Stephen Doughty]

I agree with many of the points that have been made, including those of my hon. Friend. I spent this weekend at the Co-operative party conference in Cardiff, where we discussed the many benefits of co-operative, mutual and non-profit solutions for running services such as these. Does he agree that in addition to cost benefits, the involvement of employees and users in the design of the services can also be beneficial?

[Paul Flynn]

The greatest part of the movement that my party has built on over the years is the co-operative movement and its great pioneers. It is a shame that we have not developed it more as a principle. Here, however, we have the opportunity to advance that principle in relation to the reality of the railways.

The purpose of the new clause is to remove the inappropriate restrictions on the exercise of Welsh Ministers’ powers over the rail franchises when they are devolved next year. Let the Welsh Assembly be free to repeat the success of Glas Cymru. It has been agreed between the two Governments that Executive powers over Wales-only services will be transferred to Welsh Ministers. Once that has been achieved, it is important that they are able to operate the franchise in line with their policy priorities.

As things stand under the provisions of the Railways Act 1993, Welsh Ministers would not be able to open the franchise to public sector operators. Those restrictions no longer apply in Scotland, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Christina Rees), and there is no case for them to apply in Wales. If the power is devolved, there should be no policy restrictions on its exercise. It must be open to Welsh Ministers to maximise the effectiveness and efficiency of public transport in Wales, including ensuring that alternative models are fully considered and that new opportunities are seized. For example, if the Welsh Government want to open the Wales and Borders franchise to domestic public sector operators, that should be a matter for them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Flynn]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that there will be a gap there, and that was a change we did not know about. The Welsh Assembly, and partly this House, decided to have a progressive form of governing in Wales, where we recognise elements of proportional representation, although we do not welcome some of its results. It is right, however, that parties that gain 13% of the vote get 13% of the membership. We have an advanced democracy, as was voted for when the Labour Government set up the Welsh Assembly—the disgrace is in the Lords.

We know what would happen as a result of devolving to the Welsh Assembly the power to increase the number of Members. It would be a brave Assembly that did that in isolation, because adding more politicians is not the most popular thing. The only way this can be presented to the public is as part of a package deal; if the number of MPs is to go down, there would be a case for increasing the number of Assembly Members. Similarly, if the number of MEPs has decreased, a case that would be financially acceptable could be made. What is not acceptable is what the Government are doing now with a piecemeal reform of the only part of the democratic system that could be reformed to their advantage. We need an overall reform, cancelling the planned boundary changes and with the Government getting together with all parties to have a constitutional convention to clear up the nonsense of what is happening in the Lords and the disgrace of buying peerages. Even papers such as the Daily Mail condemned the decision of the last Prime Minister in his resignation honours—

[Stephen Doughty]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Paul Flynn]

indicated assent.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

It may seem pretty good to some hon. Members, but we are drifting a little from where we should be. I know we are encompassing everything we need to, but I do not want to open up a full-blown debate on the House of Lords.

[Stephen Doughty]

I agree with many of the points my hon. Friend has made about the democratic deficit we could be heading towards. He said that the boundary review is to the Government’s advantage, and clearly that is their intention. But it is clearly not to the liking of all those on the Government Benches, as we saw from some of the points of order and comments coming from Conservative Back Benchers last week. Does he agree that the Government might well be stoking up trouble on their own side with this democratic atrocity?

[Paul Flynn]

I am sure they will and they should concern themselves with that. Another Member made the point last week that by reducing the number of Members and not reducing the number of Ministers, the Government were strengthening the power of the Executive, at the expense of Back Benchers. This is a mess and it needs an overall root-and-branch reform.

--- Later in debate ---

If Welsh APD rates were lowered, it would cause significant and unjustifiable disadvantages for Bristol airport, probably leading to a large decrease of passenger numbers—there could be a decrease of up to 25% if Welsh APD is scrapped altogether.

[Stephen Doughty]

The Minister is talking about Cardiff airport, but what consultations did he undertake with the airport management and Cardiff airport passengers? I take issue with him on this: he said that Cardiff airport and Bristol were only 60 minutes apart. Having driven that distance many times, I am pretty sure that that is not the case, not least because of some of the challenges along the M4 at the moment.

[Guto Bebb]

I am sure there are challenges along the M4 at this point in time, but my understanding is that the distance between Cardiff and Bristol can be covered in an hour.

On the consultation, we looked widely at a number of options in relation to the impact of the proposed change. The clear point is that we have to take into account the impact of changes to APD on devolution. We need to consult regional airports in England that will be affected and Cardiff airport, the single international airport in Wales. However, the analysis, which we have concluded, shows quite clearly that the scale of the impact of such a change would be detrimental to Bristol to such an extent that it could have a detrimental effect on the availability of flights to south Wales consumers and businesses. In other words, it could have an unintended consequence that would be bad for the economy of south-east Wales, because we would damage Bristol before we saw any upsurge in Cardiff. On that basis, we have concluded that we are opposed at this point in time to the devolution of APD to Wales.

The Government have listened carefully to the debate about the devolution of APD and are fully appreciative of the importance of the aviation sector for creating jobs and growth in Wales. I understand the reason that hon. Members offer in proposing the change, but we cannot justify the distortion it would cause to the wider economy of Wales and to the economy of the south-west of England. That is why the Government reject the devolution of APD.

New clause 7 seeks to assign a share of the VAT revenues generated in Wales to the Welsh Government, in the same manner that a share of Scottish VAT revenues will be assigned to the Scottish Government from April 2019, following the cross-party Smith commission agreement and given effect through the Scotland Act 2016. It is important to understand the purpose of VAT assignment, which is to increase the link between the Scottish Government’s policy decisions and their budget, and thereby further to increase their accountability for the decisions they take.

Of course, that argument could be made in support of VAT assignment for Wales. The Welsh Government have a similar range of economic policy levers as the Scottish Government, and one of our key aims is to increase accountability—that is one of the key aims of the Bill. However, the independent cross-party Silk commission gave full consideration to assigning a share of VAT receipts generated in Wales. It recognised that the main argument in favour of assignment is that it would strengthen the link between the performance of the Welsh economy and the size of the Welsh Government’s budget. However, the Silk commission pointed out that it would also mean taking on additional revenue risks arising from factors over which the Welsh Government could have less control. The commission concluded that assignment of Welsh VAT revenues to the Welsh Government’s budget should not be pursued.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Flynn]

What a bleak end to the Minister’s speech! His timid conclusion is that we have to stick to the 350 MW limit, which was decided a long time ago, and ignores, without any vision, the glorious opportunity we have in Wales. If anything is the Welsh North sea oil, it is hydro and tidal power. The possibilities are enormous. The Government’s proposal of a 350 MW limit would cover the Swansea lagoon, but it certainly would not cover the 1,800 MW at the other two planned lagoons at Cardiff and Newport. As far as nuclear is concerned, it would not cover Wylfa Newydd. It would not cover the possible alternatives to Wylfa, either.

This proposal also ignores the bold and decisive action taken by our Prime Minister, for which I sent her a letter of congratulation, to halt the Hinkley Point contract hours before the champagne corks would have been popping. Down at Hinkley Point, where they would have had their champagne, if they looked across to Wales they could have seen the second highest rising and falling tide in the world, unused and neglected but an immense source of power, washing past its walls. That could be Welsh power. That could be ours to exploit and for the Government to take on. Such power does not have the problems of the unsightly wind turbines in mid-Wales. It would enhance the natural environment in the same way as hydro. It seems remarkable that in Wales we have 2,200 MW of nuclear power. Who would know it was there? It is hidden under the hills and silent. There are lakes on top of the hills, an enhancement of nature from power stations running since 1963. It was interesting to see during the recess how many Plaid Cymru Members visited the hydroelectric power stations in their constituencies.

The possibilities that the geography of Wales gives us to exploit hydro and tidal power are numberless and immense. It is a source of renewable power which, unlike the sun and wind, is entirely predictable. In Wales, we can guarantee rain for hydro power and we can guarantee for eternity that the tides will flow. This seems to be another lost opportunity. The problems of Hinkley are not just the possibility of Chinese spies, but the possibility of the dearest electricity in the world. We are tied into a deal for 35 years. There is also the problem that EPR reactors have never worked anywhere in the world. Their delays average about 10 years, so we could develop hydro power and the lagoons within the period in which Hinkley—if it goes ahead, which it might not—would deliver.

[Stephen Doughty]

I agree with some, though not all, of what my hon. Friend has said, but I strongly agree with him on tidal power. Many people in south Wales just want to get on with tidal power and see it moving forward. There has been a lot of frustration at the situation at UK level and the delaying of decisions. Does my hon. Friend agree that the fundamental issue here is the arbitrary megawatt limit that the Government have imposed? Does he agree that it is arbitrary and that that is why we should support his amendment?

[Paul Flynn]

Yes, it is arbitrary. I know my hon. Friend has connections and would like to see more jobs created in this area, as would we all. This is, in fact, the means through which the greatest number of jobs would be created. The 350 MW limit is meaningless. The Minister mentions the Silk commission, but that was a long time ago—before we realised that there was a huge question mark over Hinkley. We will not know for a fortnight what will go ahead there, but this Bill is a great opportunity for us in Wales. Amendments 70 to 82, which we tabled, offer a marvellous chance to get energy in Wales. Unlike the curse of energy in the past, when we suffered the dirt, degradation and pollution of the coal industry, here we have a source of energy that is benign, clean, green, Welsh and eternal. What could be better than that?

It was disappointing to hear the Minister’s response to our new clause 1, which deals with marine issues. Its purpose is to promote effective consultation and communication between the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the Welsh Government in respect of devolved fisheries and marine matters. The new clause would put Wales on the same footing as Scotland. It is increasingly irritating to hear from the Government that what is right for Scotland is never right for Wales. Wales always seems to come second when it comes to doling out these grudged gifts of power from this excessively and neurotically power-attentive Government. For goodness’ sake, let go, and let Wales have at least what Scotland has. What on earth is wrong with that?

Powers in respect of fisheries, marine planning, inshore marine licensing and conservation are already devolved. The Wales Bill makes further provision for ports to be devolved, which is very welcome; for devolution in respect of marine licensing; for conservation to be extended to the offshore area; and for consenting over marine energy projects. That is moving in the right direction, but consultation on the MCA’s priorities would promote joined-up, cross-Government engagement at an early stage on marine and fisheries issues. The new clause is designed to promote consultation and information sharing on matters of mutual interest, which could only benefit the public as well as commercial and conservation areas. It is an entirely sensible and common-sense measure which should be accepted by the Government.

We warmly support new clause 6 on air passenger duty, tabled by Plaid Cymru Members, and will do so if it is pressed to a Division. It seems extraordinary for a Welsh Minister to talk about air travel when we know that the disposition of the airports works in a circle. At the centre of the circle are Heathrow and Gatwick, where all the traffic goes. As we move further from those hubs out to the periphery, the problems get worse. Our airport, Cardiff, is on the periphery of the periphery, so it deserves special treatment—just as the Scottish airports do. For the same reason, we deserve special impetus to make sure that we can compete. We cannot compete on an equal basis at the moment because of the geography involved. The traffic flows towards the centre—towards London and towards Bristol.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David]

I want to say a few words about new clause 11 and whether the devolution of policing is to be kept under review. I begin with a non-partisan point. When I was a Wales Office Minister for some 18 months, it struck me during meetings at the Home Office to consider policing in England and Wales how it became matter of fact simply to talk about England. That changed when I banged the table a few times, but it was interesting, going back several years now, that there was already a mindset that policing had been devolved to Wales—so they thought—and that it need not be considered by the Home Office. One of the unintended consequences of devolution is the assumption, certainly made by senior civil servants at that time—I suggest that it is still made—that policing has been devolved and that it should be considered on an England-only basis. It is not enough for us to keep on reminding people that it is not devolved; we have to realise why that assumption has been made and work out what is the logical direction of travel. A fair point made frequently by our colleagues in the Welsh Assembly is that policing is the only non-devolved emergency service in Wales.

Over the past few years, we have seen a movement towards the practical involvement of the Welsh Assembly in the day-to-day development of policing strategies, particularly on community safety. They fund a large number of police community support officers—I think they call them community support officers—and there are initiatives on counter-terrorism and how to get effective policies to tackle the threat. The Tarian unit is looking at organised drugs crime in Wales and how to combat it. Also, as has been mentioned, Wales has four police and crime commissioners who argue strongly and logically that the time has come for the devolution of policing to be seriously considered. The four police authorities in Wales have created a police liaison team that involves senior officers regularly meeting the Welsh Government. In a sense, a dovetailing is already taking place before our eyes on day-to-day policing.

I am not suggesting that this is an easy matter to be considered and then easily devolved, as it is not; it is complex and difficult. For example, the funding arrangements for policing in Wales are the most complicated of those of all the public services. More than a third of all police funding in Wales comes from the Home Office —that is more than £250 million a year, so we are talking about a heck of a lot of money. Before any devolution occurs, we want to be sure that we have funding arrangements commensurate with the powers that are devolved. That important issue must be central to any discussions and future negotiations.

We will also have to be mindful of the need for effective cross-border co-operation in any devolution of policing. As we all know, crime does not recognise any international boundaries these days, and it certainly does not recognise Offa’s Dyke, so we need strong, automatic mechanisms of co-operation in place as part of any devolution strategy. On co-operation, it is also particularly important that we examine the issue of police training and recognise that no matter what the devolution package is, it is extremely unlikely that Wales would develop its own training strategy for police officers. We would have to buy in, if necessary, from the national College of Policing, which is based in Berkshire and does an excellent job on police training. We also need to continue our involvement with the National Policing Improvement Agency. Policing must not be separated; we need to make sure that a close partnership is developed and put in place, taking into account the current funding arrangements, which are no longer suitable for the situation in which we find ourselves.

This issue will not go away, because of political imperatives and because the practicalities of tackling crime efficiently necessitate more devolution and greater partnership with the institutions of government that exist in Wales and are developing—this Bill helps in their development. We do not need a knee-jerk reaction, simply saying that the devolution of policing can be done easily and quickly, as it cannot. However, this needs to be kept under review, as this sensible and moderate new clause suggests. I heard the Minister’s negative comments, but I hope that he will recognise reality and keep this issue full square on the table, so that we have an active and positive consideration, and that when the time is right and there is a political consensus for it, we devolve policing powers for Wales.

[Stephen Doughty]

I wish to speak briefly about two areas: the amendments on energy generation and new clause 6 on air passenger duty.

On energy, I have already indicated my support for many of the comments that were made by our Front-Bench spokesman and indeed that were coming from those on the Government Benches, too. I believe the Welsh Government should be having more say on this issue because the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly have set a very different direction on sustainability and energy production right from the outset. We saw the principle of sustainable development and sustainability embedded in the first Wales Act, and the sustainable futures Act and other legislation passed in the Assembly have also shown a different direction. I trust people there to make a better choice about the energy mix and energy production matrix in Wales than we are seeing coming from the UK Government, particularly when they abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and downgrade sustainability and climate change in their overall agenda. We have a different approach in Wales. The megawatt limits that are set at the moment are arbitrary, and we ought to be giving as much encouragement as possible to local decision making on this, for many reasons. In particular, I would like the removal of some of the impediments to local energy generation by community energy schemes, as so much damage has been done to these schemes.

At the Co-operative party conference this weekend—I am a proud Co-operative party MP as well—I heard about the damage that has been done to community and co-operative energy across the UK by the rapid changes, for example, to feed-in tariffs, and the bureaucracy surrounding such schemes. It has been a huge mistake and has caused great damage to the industry. We have a thriving community energy sector in Wales that I want to see grow and expand. Given the framework that the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly have set from the beginning and which is very much embedded in their structures, it makes clear sense to devolve and expand the powers in this area.

It may seem odd for me to talk next about air travel and new clause 6. I believe that the expansion of air travel must be in balance with other forms of transport and within the framework of the Climate Change Act 2008, Welsh domestic legislation on sustainability and the Paris agreement. I am not convinced by the case that the Minister outlined today about air passenger duty. I find it particularly curious that the Secretary of State, who has Cardiff airport in his constituency, just 15 minutes away from the boundaries of my own, is willing to oppose this idea. Expanding provision at Cardiff airport will lead to shorter journey times, less congestion, less traffic and less cost for consumers in Wales. It will generate jobs and opportunities for the Secretary of State’s constituents and mine, many of whom work in the airport and in the aerospace industry and supply industry locally.

On the idea that it takes just 60 minutes to get across to Bristol, I have travelled to and from Bristol airport on a number of occasions. I have travelled there by all the different modes of transport—I have driven in my car, I have taken the train to Bristol Temple Meads and caught the connecting bus, and I have taken the coach directly to the airport. Bristol airport is a very nice place and I had a very nice experience there. I have nothing bad to say about Bristol airport itself, but it is complicated to get there. It takes a long time. With Cardiff airport just 15 minutes down the road from my constituency and from our capital city, it seems odd that a Wales Office Minister—indeed, the Secretary of State—rather than getting the best deal for Wales, should stand up for an airport on the other side of the Severn bridge and encourage passengers to go over there.

There is a further issue. Ministers have talked about the opportunities for Welsh passengers to travel from Bristol airport. Those will remain, but we do not benefit as much from passengers coming from the south-west, for one very good reason: the Severn bridge tolls. Why would passengers choose to come across to Cardiff airport, which entails crossing a toll bridge, when they have an airport on their own doorstep? We need to think carefully about what is the right decision.

I was not an absolute believer in the original Welsh Government decision to get involved in running the airport. I admit I was a sceptic, but they did the right thing and their decision has borne fruit, as we heard. Passenger numbers are up 29%, as my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said. A service has been launched to London to allow a connection to many of the international business flights from London City airport. Companies such as FlyBe are expanding their opportunities. It was good enough for the Welsh football team to travel in and out of Cardiff airport. I find it odd that the Minister and the Secretary of State appear to be more interested in protecting the position of Bristol, rather than doing what is right for Wales and especially for consumers in south Wales, who want to be able to travel from Cardiff airport and to connect.

That is particularly pertinent in light of the result of the EU referendum. If we want Wales to be able to take advantage of the global trade agreements that the Government are supposedly going to magic up for us in the next couple of years, we must enable businesses, especially larger ones, to connect to flights to the City of London and elsewhere quickly and efficiently, and not have to take two or three modes of transport to get to an airport quite far south of Bristol. We ought to make the most of our own airport on our own doorstep, which is at the hub of a thriving aerospace industry.

Let us not forget that we have the British Airways Maintenance Cardiff centre. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), I think, mentioned the length of the runway and the airport’s ability to handle the world’s largest aircraft. That is crucial. Could we not make more of those synergies with 777s and, we hope, with A380s and 747s, which are already maintained there and perhaps in future could fly from there as well?

I will support new clause 6 because it would benefit Wales, my constituency, Cardiff South and Penarth, and constituents in the Vale of Glamorgan, and it makes sense in terms of the efficiency and sustainability of air travel from Wales in the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Doughty]

I do not quite share the despondency of the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) about the state of the Bill and the devolution settlement, but I agreed with a number of the points he made and it is always a pleasure to listen to him speak.

I did not have the pleasure of serving on the Committee, but I have enjoyed taking part in the debates and scrutinising the Bill in the Chamber, especially on Report. I share other Members’ scepticism about whether this is really the final settlement. I think the Secretary of State and the Minister slightly over-egged the pudding when they suggested that this would be the end of the matter. We have seen Bill after Bill and change after change during this process, and while I am a firm supporter of devolution and of the innovation and positive differences it has brought to the people of Wales, in the end they will judge the devolution settlement by the impact it has on their lives. They will judge it, for example, according to whether there is fragmentation and confusion around cross-border services, financial arrangements or the interoperability of services across the border, particularly given the geographical proximity of Wales to England. For the populations involved, our situation is slightly different from that of Scotland.

I believe, as do the First Minister and many other colleagues, that the devolution process is not finished. We need a proper constitutional convention that looks not only at the settlement of powers but at funding arrangements and at how we resolve disputes in these islands. This is particularly important as we look at the question of devolution in England as well. We could end up with a completely asymmetric devolution settlement across the UK that would be cumbersome and unworkable. I do not want to see disputes being resolved in the Supreme Court or getting lost amid technical details because the issues are far too complex. We have seen that happen in relation to many individual issues. I remember the Welsh Affairs Committee looking at the provision of NHS services across the border and, rightly or wrongly, there is increasing confusion for patients travelling across, whether in relation to funding arrangements, records or other issues. In the end, the people of Wales—and the people of the United Kingdom —will judge devolution and the constitutional changes by applying these tests. Does this make things better for us? Do we feel more engaged? Do we understand what is going on?

We need to bear this in mind particularly as we deal with the atmosphere of the post-Brexit referendum. The Bill has many positive aspects, including the move to a reserved powers model and the devolution of powers in many areas. These are positive steps forward, but it would be a great tragedy if we were to give those new powers and responsibilities to Wales only to see the people and the Government of Wales emasculated in the Brexit negotiations. It has been suggested in some quarters, for example, that there will be no reference to decisions taken in the Welsh Assembly or to Welsh Government Ministers in what will be the most crucial constitutional negotiations this country has faced in decades. It would be perverse if powers were to be given with one hand while Wales’s future in many respects was taken away with another, whether in negotiations on agriculture or fisheries or in future trade deals. Unless we get the balance right for the role that devolved Governments and legislatures play in the process, we will make some serious mistakes.

I want to reiterate some of my previous points. We need fundamentally to reconsider the representation of the people of Wales. The boundary reforms are not being done fairly. There is the difference between the electoral register lists that the Boundary Commission have with worked with and registration levels for the European Union referendum, the fact that we continue to stack the House of Lords higher and higher while significantly cutting the number of Welsh MPs, and the lack of clarity about the future number of Assembly Members—potentially huge problems. I would like to see the House of Lords completely reformed with a strong regional and national element representing a new constitutional—and ultimately federal—settlement. That is how we can ensure the coherence of this United Kingdom and our constitution and ensure an understanding of how we can work together with difference, innovation and the special situation that devolution has delivered for the people of Wales.

I am pleased that the Bill is going forward, but this is not the end. Ultimately, the people of Wales will judge it on whether it makes things better for them and on whether they feel more engaged in the decisions that affect their lives.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

Wales Bill

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Dr Davies]

It is perfectly possible that it can be done, but I just do not see the point. It would create extra confusion, and there would be a plethora of signs at the border where currently there is none. There would also have to be a huge information exercise, which would, in many cases, fail to get to the users of those roads.

Welsh devolution was meant to improve the lives of people, but it is very difficult to see how the devolution of a national speed limit, among other items in the Bill, would bring that about. It surely needs to be accepted that this is a matter most sensibly overseen at UK level. I respectfully urge the Government to reconsider.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Hoyle, to serve under your chairmanship today.

I wish to speak specifically in support of amendment 124 in the name of my right hon. and hon. Friends. I know that a number of Members wished to add their name to the amendment. It does not look as though that has been done, so I wanted to make it clear that it has my full support.

The amendment relates to the experience that many of us had during the passage of the Trade Union Bill. We had extensive discussions around the relative competence of devolved Administrations and the UK Government over trade union and industrial relations and employment matters that related to devolved public services. I want to draw a very clear distinction here. I am not in favour of having some sort of potential beggar thy neighbour approach on employment and industrial relations across these islands. It is important that there are common standards and provisions that do not go into some sort of race to the bottom. I also believe in the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly having full power over the partnerships and industrial relations practices that they choose to pursue in areas where there is clear devolved competence such as in the public services, particularly in health and education, but also in other areas.

During the passage of the Bill, the Government regularly used the excuse that they were not interested in the positions of the Welsh Government, the Scottish Government or other Governments on issues such as check-off and facility time in the public services because those were exclusively reserved. However, the Welsh Government, the Scottish Government and others made it clear that they did not believe that this Parliament and the UK Government had full legislative competence in those areas, particularly in relation to the administration of public services.

That is crucial, because the Welsh Labour Government have pursued a different approach to industrial relations, which has led to an absence of some of the strikes and industrial disputes we have seen in other parts of the UK, and we had a clear example in the health service. The Welsh Government have taken a sensible partnership approach with the trade unions and a sensible approach to issues such as facility time and check-off. They have properly recognised the importance of those things, and particularly of partnership working, as opposed to the confrontational approach taken by the Government in Westminster at various points, and I would not want to see that undermined in any way.

Amendment 124 therefore makes it clear that the Assembly would retain its legislative competence over terms and conditions of service for employees in the devolved public services and over industrial relations in those services. That is entirely reasonable. This is not about a complete devolution of these issues—it is important that we retain common standards—but about taking a sensible approach and allowing the Assembly to handle relationships in, for example, the Welsh NHS, our schools and our further education institutions in the more positive and constructive way they have done.

The amendment would also enable the Welsh Government to take the action they clearly want to, without people resorting to the courts, as we have seen on other matters. The UK Government famously took the Welsh Government to court over the Agricultural Wages Board, which was a wholly foolish decision. The Welsh Government were trying to take a different approach—the right approach—but the UK Government wanted to waste tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money attempting to sue the Welsh Government. That is why, in areas such as this, we have to have a clear distinction in legislation, and why we should not attempt to hamstring devolved Administrations in areas where they have clear competence. In that way, we can avoid the resort to the courts and the expending of public money that would otherwise occur.

The amendment has the support of many of the trade unions in Wales, which have practised the different type of industrial relations I described, and I declare my interest as a proud member of the GMB, which is very supportive of the amendment. I hope the Government will accept that there is a clear distinction here and that there is a clear place for these responsibilities in relation to the public services where Wales has taken a different route. I therefore urge the Government to accept the amendment.

[Mr Mark Williams]

It is good to have this opportunity to say a few words about this mammoth group of amendments. I want to speak in support of a range of amendments to schedule 1 that remove certain reservations. I endorse amendment 83, on policing; amendment 112, on antisocial behaviour; amendment 84, on dangerous dogs; amendment 85, on prostitution; amendment 86, on the rehabilitation of offenders; amendment 117, on knives; amendment 123, on entertainment and late-night refreshment; amendment 116, on licensing; amendment 87, on the sale and supply of alcohol; the amendments on water and sewerage; amendment 89, on Sunday trading; amendment 90, on electricity; amendment 91, on coal; amendment 92, on heating and cooling; amendment 93, on energy conservation; amendment 94, on road transport; amendment 161, on speed limits; amendment 95, on rail services; amendment 141, on trust ports; amendment 97, on coastguards; amendment 98, on hovercraft; amendment 114, on the Children’s Commissioner; amendment 115, on teachers’ pay; amendment 113, on time; and amendment 112, on equal opportunities.

When I last read out the list of reservations in the Welsh Grand Committee, when we had the ill-fated draft Bill, it was somewhat longer, and I was saved from hyperventilation only by the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), who helped me out. The Government should therefore be praised and congratulated to a small degree on reducing the length of the list of reservations, which is what the Select Committee said they should do.

I will not go too much into the specifics of the amendments, other than to say that I still question whether there was a write-around to various Departments. Who was calling the shots on the different subjects? Was it the former Secretary of State and his team? Was it our friends in the Assembly Government? Was it officials and Ministers in other Departments? Like my neighbours from Plaid Cymru, I would like to see the justification for the reservation list as it has been presented.

I was fully aware of the St David’s process. We looked through Silk systematically, and we looked at every one of Silk’s recommendations. If there was a consensus between the four parties, we would proceed; if there was not, we would not. However, in either eventuality, officials would go away and talk to Departments, so my hunch—my suspicion—is still that certain Departments were involved, not least the Department of Justice, given the discussions we had when we previously sat in Committee on a distinct or separate jurisdiction, and it is great to hear that, on Report, we will be discussing the need for a distinct jurisdiction in a way we did not then.

If these powers—these reservations—were controlled in Wales, would that mean the unravelling of our constitutional arrangement? Would it mean the end of the Union if we devolved the power over hovercraft, time or the Children’s Commissioner? Should there not be a principle—I suggest there should be—that if something is good enough to be devolved to Northern Ireland and Scotland, it should be devolved to Wales as well? Better still, perhaps we should have started from the principle that all powers are devolved and that it is the duty of the Wales Office and Westminster to argue the case for reserving them to Westminster. Whitehall would not have had a difficult time—from some of us at least, and I part company with my friends in Plaid Cymru on this —convincing us that defence should be reserved. However, I would love to hear the argument for why most of these other powers are still being reserved to this place.

Many of these items were referred to in Silk—for instance, ports and their development, harbour orders and the oversight of trust ports. There is no mention in Silk of reserved ports at Milford Haven. Silk also talked about speed limits and drink-driving limits. I respect those hon. Members who moved amendment 161, but they should have more faith in their Front Benchers, in the Department for Transport and, indeed, in our friends in the Cynulliad. I remember sitting, as the Liberal, in the St David’s day discussions at Gwydyr House, and the Conservatives, the Labour party and Plaid Cymru were all united on the Government’s suggestion. Members must have more faith in members of their own parties.

Silk talked about water and sewerage. He asserted that they should be devolved, but that the boundary for legislative competence should be aligned with the national boundary—a tall order indeed. He called for further consideration of the practical issues of alignment, with particular interest given to the interests of consumers, and for discussions with the regulator, consumer representatives, water companies and both Governments. When we discussed these matters, it was agreed that, to get consensus between the four parties, a joint Government water and sewerage devolution board would be established to consider aligning legislative competence with the national border. That work has now concluded, and I would be grateful to hear the Government’s interpretation of the conclusions. Is it not true that the conclusions that have been reached could be enacted with minimal impact on the consumers of water and sewerage services? Why, therefore, have this reservation?

I want to talk specifically about teachers’ pay and conditions. The issue is dear to my heart because I was a teacher before coming to this place. I taught in England and in the great county of Powys—indeed, I taught in the great constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire, at an excellent school called Ysgol Llangorse. I had a seamless move across the border from England into Wales, and I was able to benefit from remaining on the same teaching pay spine—it must be said that I had a bit of a promotion at Llangorse, for which I was very grateful—with the same conditions. I should also say, although not to infuriate friends on the Conservative Benches, that I remain a very proud member of NASUWT and pay my subs regularly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

I am happy to explain that given that local authorities already have the power to vary speed limits, it is a logical, sensible extension to give further powers to the Welsh Government in this area.

Time does not permit me to address in detail all the remaining amendments to schedule 1. That is in part because hon. Members from Plaid Cymru seem to seek the devolution of just about everything, and they seem to want to reverse the principles on which the Bill is based. I am pursuing a pragmatic, practical approach as we amend and develop the Bill, so I reject the amendments to devolve Sunday trading, the generation, transmission, distribution and supply of electricity, coal, heat and cooling networks, energy conservation, working-age benefits, child benefit, guardians allowance, most employment and industrial relations, employment support programmes, abortion, health and safety, broadcasting, safety at sports grounds, equal opportunities, bank holidays and the Children’s Commissioner.

Amendment 124, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), seeks to carve out from the employment reservation terms and conditions of employment in relation to Wales public authorities. The Government believe strongly that the underlying legislative framework of rights and responsibilities in the workplace must be reserved for the labour market to work most effectively across Great Britain.

[Stephen Doughty]

Does the Secretary of State accept that, as a Minister told me during proceedings on the Trade Union Bill, the reserved powers granted under the legislation effectively allow any Minister in the UK Government to undermine a partnership or industrial relations decision made by a Welsh Minister in the running of the Welsh NHS or the education service, for example?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with the legislative background of the Government of Wales Act 2006, and the Bill seeks to expand on the 2006 Act in relation to employment rights. There was no intention in that Act to devolve those purposes, and we have continued the principle that was well established by the previous Labour Government.

I shall deal with amendments on three further areas. First, in relation to amendment 88, which was tabled by members of Plaid Cymru, and amendments 127 to 129 and new clause 10, the Government are considering the conclusions of the joint Governments’ programme board in relation to the Silk recommendations on water and sewerage. The joint committee reported only a couple of weeks ago, and it is only appropriate that the Government give proper, full consideration to that report. I hope that we can find a consensus among the Welsh Government and the opposition parties on a way forward, but there are a whole range of technical issues that need further consideration.

Secondly, in response to amendment 107, I assure the hon. Member for Arfon that the Assembly will have the competence to legislate in relation to party election broadcasts at Assembly and local government elections in Wales. Party political broadcasts are considered to be part of the conduct of elections, and there is no need to modify the broadcasting reservation to achieve that. Thirdly, on amendment 115, which relates to teachers’ pay, I am in principle in favour of devolving teachers’ pay and conditions, but there is a case for further discussions between the UK Government and the Welsh Government about how that can best be achieved.

Finally, new clause 1 and consequential amendment 2 are intended to devolve the management functions of the Crown Estate commissioners in relation to Wales to Welsh Ministers or to a person who is nominated by them. That broadly reflects the provisions in the Scotland Act 2016. The devolution of the Crown Estate in Scotland was recommended by cross-party consensus in the Smith agreement but, as hon. Members know, the St David’s day process found no similar consensus in respect of Wales.

Paragraph 1 of proposed new schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006 will prevent an Assembly Act from modifying the law on reserved matters. Paragraph 2 will provide flexibility for an Assembly Act provision to be able to modify the law on reserved matters, where doing so is ancillary to a provision that does not relate to a reserved matter and there is no greater effect on reserved matters than is necessary to give effect to the purpose of the provision. The restriction relating to the private law in paragraph 3 and the restriction concerning the criminal law in paragraph 4 are intended to provide a general level of protection for the unified legal system of England and Wales while enabling the Assembly to enforce its legislation.

The protected areas of private law include core subjects such as the law of contract and property. However, the Assembly is given the power to modify the private law where the purpose of doing so does not relate to a reserved matter. Importantly, the Assembly is not permitted to modify the private law for its own sake and cannot make wholesale changes to the private law, such as the wholesale rewriting of contract law. Any modification of the private law must be for a range of devolved purposes.

On the criminal law side, in paragraph 4 the serious offences protected from modification include treason, homicide offences, sexual offences and serious offences against the person. It is right that these serious offences remain consistent across the UK. In addition, the Assembly will not be able to alter the law that governs the existing framework of criminal law, such as sentencing and capacity to commit crimes.

I am conscious of the fact that a whole host of issues have been raised, so I will conclude. This has been a full and wide-ranging debate. I hope I have been able to assure the Committee that the reserved powers model will provide a clear, robust and lasting devolution settlement for Wales. I urge Opposition Members to withdraw amendment 118.

Wales Bill

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

It is currently envisaged that the group will report in the autumn, and, as things stand, that is its aim. I hope that that satisfies the hon. Gentleman, at least in terms of clarity.

It is important to understand what the group will and will not do. It will consider the administrative and operational implications of a shared but single legal jurisdiction, but it will not discuss broader constitutional questions such as whether there should be a separate jurisdiction. The Government’s view is clear: the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales is the most effective, efficient and consistent way to deliver justice. I hope that provides the clarity for which Members have been asking.

Amendment 10 seeks to omit subsection (2) of the proposed new section 92B of the Government of Wales Act. Subsection (2) recognises that a body of Welsh law made by the Assembly and by Welsh Ministers forms part of the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales, while giving due regard to the boundaries of competence set out in the Bill. It is important for the Assembly to have full and effective powers to enforce its legislation on devolved matters, and in order to achieve that, a growing body of distinct law will necessarily continue to be made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers.

The Bill provides for that throughout. In particular, paragraphs 3 and 4 of new schedule 7B, which schedule 2 inserts into the Government of Wales Act and which the Committee will debate next week, make it clear that the Assembly may modify the private law for a devolved purpose, and that only certain core elements of the criminal law are outside its competence. Those elements are listed in paragraph 4 of the new schedule. The Assembly will, for example, be able to create and modify offences when they are for the purpose of enforcing devolved provisions.

Subsection (2) of new section 92B is intended to be helpful, explaining that the purpose of the provision is to recognise the ability of the Assembly and Welsh Ministers to make laws forming part of the unified legal system of England and Wales. The new section constitutes a declaratory statement, and does not bestow any further powers on the Assembly than are provided for elsewhere in the Bill. It is, however, important in that it enables the contribution made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers to the law of England and Wales to be recognised for the first time, while having due regard to the other provisions in the Bill. Subsection (2) is required to clarify that the statement must be considered in the context of the rest of the Bill. Without it, there might be uncertainty about the meaning of subsection (1).

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

So that the public can understand the divergence that has, to a limited degree, taken place so far, will the Minister tell us what proportion of the current law he considers to be distinctly Welsh, as opposed to England and Wales law? May we, in future, be given a regular update on that distinction, so that ordinary people understand where the law is diverging?

[Guto Bebb]

That is a good question, because it highlights the importance of ensuring that people in Wales understand where law is made. The percentage of Welsh law is currently tiny by comparison with the overall impact of the law on those people, but I think we should keep an eye on the position.

Clause 1 sets the scene for the new model of Welsh devolution that is presented in the Bill. It inserts a new part 2A into the Government of Wales Act, ensuring that, for the first time, the permanence of the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government is confirmed. It recognises both as a permanent element of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements, and as part and parcel of our nation’s constitutional fabric, and reflects the importance of the National Assembly and the Welsh Government to political life in Wales.

The Silk commission recommended that it be recognised that the National Assembly for Wales is permanent for as long as that is the will of the majority of people in Wales. In the St David’s day agreement, the Government gave an undertaking to enshrine that commitment in legislation, which we are delivering in clause 1; we did the same for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government in the Scotland Act 2016. I think it fair to say that most Members welcome that certainty.

New section 92A also provides that the Assembly and the Welsh Government are not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision by the people of Wales voting in a referendum. I hope that such a referendum will not be forthcoming, but I think it important to recognise that the decision on whether we have a Welsh Assembly and a Welsh Government is a decision for the people of Wales, to be made by them.

New section 92B underpins the commitment to permanence by recognising that there is a body of Welsh law made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers that forms part of the law of England and Wales. It is important that we recognise that in statute—which we are doing for the first time—while also recognising the elements that are common to England and Wales. Clause 1 is a declaratory statement, but its recognition of the contribution made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers to the law of England and Wales is important none the less. Meanwhile, the Justice in Wales working group of officials that I mentioned earlier will consider what changes are necessary to reflect the distinctiveness of Wales within the administrative arrangements for justice, and, as I have said, I expect a report in the autumn.

Amendment 23, tabled by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, seeks to broaden the scope of the commitment given in relation to the convention about Parliament’s legislating on devolved matters by removing the word “normally”. The commitment in clause 2 that Parliament will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Assembly reflects the current convention on legislative consent. We gave a commitment to put that convention on a statutory footing in the St David’s day agreement, and that is what clause 2 does. The clause is also in line with the provision made in relation to the Scottish Parliament in the Scotland Act 2016. Since the convention was established, a legislative consent motion has always been sought before Parliament has passed legislation for Wales in relation to devolved matters. This is part of the normal working arrangements between the UK Government and the Welsh Government and we expect it to continue, but to remove “normally” from the clause would fundamentally change the convention. The “not normally” element of both the convention and clause is essential as it acknowledges parliamentary sovereignty and, within the clause, signals to the courts that this clause is not intended to be subject to adjudication.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (John Penrose)]

Clauses 5 to 7 deal with elections to the Assembly and local government elections in Wales. Clause 5 concerns the power to make provision about Welsh Assembly elections. It flows from the St David’s day agreement, which states that powers relating to elections to the National Assembly for Wales should be devolved. Essentially, the clause gives Welsh Ministers an order-making power to make provision about the conduct of Welsh Assembly elections. It also gives the Secretary of State, subject to the agreement of Welsh Ministers, the power to make regulations to combine the polls at Welsh Assembly elections with UK parliamentary elections and in theory—this will not matter much in future—with European parliamentary elections, too.

Clause 5 substitutes section 13 of the Government of Wales Act with a proposed new section 13. It broadly transfers to Welsh Ministers the power exercised by the Secretary of State to make provision by order about the conduct of Welsh Assembly elections. The new section provides that the powers of Welsh Ministers are aligned with the legislative competence of the Welsh Assembly. It also sets out the scope of the order-making power and makes it clear that it enables provision to be made on a number of matters, including the registration of electors and the limits of election expenses for individual candidates. It also allows Ministers to combine polls: when more than one poll is held on the same day, they will decide how the polls will be administered.

The clause also devolves matters relating to the allocation of regional members at an election, the process for challenging an election and what should happen if there is a vacancy in the Assembly. It also inserts a new section 13A into the 2006 Act that gives the Secretary of State the equivalent power to combine polls at Welsh Assembly elections with UK parliamentary elections and European parliamentary elections. For example, an extraordinary general election for the Assembly could be held on the same day as a general election for the UK Parliament. The exercise of this power by the Secretary of State will be subject to the agreement of Welsh Ministers and subject to the affirmative resolution procedure here in the UK Parliament.

Clause 6 concerns the timing of elections in Wales and implements the St David’s day agreement, which states that while conduct of Assembly elections and local government elections in Wales should be devolved, the Assembly should not be able to decide to hold its elections on the same day as general elections to the UK Parliament, the European Parliament or local government elections in Wales. This aspect of the administration and conduct of Assembly and local elections will therefore remain reserved to the UK Parliament.

By way of background, to date, each general election that has been held to the Assembly—there have been five in total—has been held in a different year from ordinary local elections in Wales. Further, the Wales Act 2014 amended section 3 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 so that ordinary general elections to the Assembly are now held every five years rather than every four. This, and the provision in the Fixed-terms Parliaments Act 2011, which it superseded, avoided the Assembly general election and the UK parliamentary general election clashing in 2015 and will avoid such a clash in 2020, as the next ordinary general election to the Assembly is now scheduled to be in 2021.

The next scheduled local elections in Wales are due to be held in 2017. The Local Authority Elections (Wales) Order 2014, made by Welsh Ministers, provided for the local government election date to be moved by one year in order to avoid a clash with this year’s Assembly election. The clause says that in the event of a clash, Welsh Ministers can make an order specifying the alternative day on which the poll of the ordinary Welsh Assembly general election shall be held. It also transfers the existing power of the Secretary of State to move the date of an Assembly ordinary general election by up to one month to Welsh Ministers, and that where this power is exercised, that new date cannot fall on the same date as a UK parliamentary general election or European parliamentary election.

The clause also includes provisions that prevent local government elections in Wales from being held on the same day as an Assembly general election. If there is a clash, Welsh Ministers can make an order specifying the alternative day for the local government election to held.

Clause 7 ensures co-operation between Welsh Ministers and UK Ministers over the online individual electoral registration digital service for Assembly elections and local government elections in Wales. The Assembly is free to decide on a franchise and a registration process for these elections, but as a practical matter, where the Welsh Government wants changes to the GB-wide Digital Service, they will need the approval of UK Government Ministers to do so.

[Stephen Doughty]

To clarify, if Assembly Ministers have the ability to change the provisions about the registration of electors and potentially to move to an automatic system of registration, which ensures that we have people registered, unlike the current system, how will that work with future UK parliamentary elections or other elections? Will they then be using the system that the Welsh Ministers have decided on or will there be a different register for those elections?

[John Penrose]

As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, we already run two very heavily overlapping but subtly different electoral registers for local council elections and parliamentary elections. There are different qualifications. For example, an EU national who currently lives in a British city might be eligible to vote in a local council election and not in a UK parliamentary election, so we have two heavily overlapping but not identical registers. The same applies to Scottish parliamentary elections to Holyrood. That will continue, and should the Cardiff Assembly decide that it wants to change things in some way it will have the competence to do so for the electoral roll for Cardiff Assembly elections, but it will not have the competence to change the registration process or scope for UK parliamentary elections as that is a reserved matter to be decided in this place. I hope that clarifies things for the hon. Gentleman.

[Stephen Doughty]

It helps to clarify things in one respect, but does the Minister not accept that there could end up being a very significant discrepancy in the numbers registered for an Assembly election versus a UK parliamentary election? The public do not understand these things in the context of the complexities of all the registers and lists; if they have registered to vote, they would expect to be able to vote in all elections. Given the huge discrepancy between registration for UK parliamentary elections and registration for the EU referendum—and given the fact that the Boundary Commission is not using the figures for the EU referendum—does he not accept that there might be a huge discrepancy in this regard too?

--- Later in debate ---

Finally, I take this opportunity to refresh the memory of the Committee that, were Wales to be equipped with a separate legal jurisdiction, there would simply be no need to jump through the hoops implicit in justice impact assessments. Clause 10 once again reminds us that underpinning the Wales Bill is the need to prioritise the single unified legal system of England and Wales, hedging the Assembly’s legislators about with an excess of checks and balances, rather than empowering them. We oppose clause 10 and we will vote against it when the time comes.

[Stephen Doughty]

I wish to speak on clause 16 and the referendum on income tax powers. I preface my remarks by saying that I have always been an instinctive pro-devolutionist. I worked in the Assembly when it first began and I supported its establishment. I would go further than some aspects of the Bill in devolving powers and giving responsibilities to the Welsh Government. I support, as the First Minister has, a federal UK. I would like a constitutional convention and a written constitution that properly settles the duties and responsibilities of the respective Administrations across these islands. This is even more crucial in the aftermath of the EU referendum. I genuinely fear for the future of the UK at the moment. I have always considered myself a proud Welshman, but also proudly British and proudly European. I will continue to do so, but we have unleashed a whole series of very difficult questions in the aftermath of the vote that make our deliberations on the Bill all the more important.

[David T. C. Davies]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the citizens of Switzerland and Norway are Europeans and may be proud to be European? They are just as European as anyone else in Europe, and he would be just as European as a Norwegian or a Swiss person is after Brexit takes place.

[Stephen Doughty]

I am not going to be taken down that rabbit hole. I want to concentrate on the details of the Bill. I make my point because, despite having those views and pro-devolutionary instincts in supporting the most of the Bill—as I said, I am even willing to go further—I have also always believed in applying two tests to proposals put before us.

First, whatever is proposed must deliver better outcomes for the people of Wales. It is absolutely crucial that we look at this in the context of our unique history. Our history is not the same as that of Scotland, our legal history is not the same as that of Scotland, and the nature of our polity and development is not the same as that of Scotland. There are distinct and unique things about Wales that we should consider that do not apply to Scotland. We always have to ask: is this the right solution? I apply that particularly to issues such as policing, the justice system and criminal jurisdiction. I am not saying that they should not be looked at in the future, but I believe in a practical test of whether they will deliver better outcomes. It is not just about sticking a dragon on something and saying it will be done better; this has to be approached in a very cold and hard-headed way.

Secondly, I have always believed in the consent of the Welsh people when making major constitutional change. I support very much the intent of amendment 11, which I will support if it is pressed to a Division. We have considered the fiscal framework for Wales before moving forward with any devolution of income tax powers. There is a fundamental principle at stake here. Clause 16 would remove the requirement for a referendum. We have had two referendums in this country, one in Wales and one in Scotland. In Scotland, the question related to the devolution of income tax powers. It was the second question in the Scottish referendum of 1997 and it passed by 63.48%. The Scottish people were asked that question and voted for it separately from the question on whether there should be a Scottish Parliament. In Wales, we had a referendum on 3 March 2011 on a much lesser question, which was whether the Assembly should be able to make laws on the areas for which it already has responsibility. I did not think we needed that referendum at all. It was obvious that Wales should have had primary law making powers—it should have had them from the beginning. I always thought it absurd, sitting there in the early days of the Assembly discussing odd details of secondary legislation, that we did not have that primary law making power, so I am glad we have moved in that direction in terms of the Assembly’s core competences.

Whether or not people agree with devolving income tax powers, the question is a very fundamental one that changes the nature of the settlement for the Assembly and the Welsh Government. The question should be put to the Welsh people. I think it would pass in the current context, despite what some people say. Many in Wales would want to see it pass, and it should be put to them. It is a matter of precedent: we have had the two previous referendums, but we are not getting one on this question. I cannot understand why. We are not giving the Welsh people a voice. Whatever side people were on in the referendum campaign, it was crucial that the British had their say on such a fundamental decision.

I think that clause 16 is a mistake, but I will support our amendment 11, which goes fundamentally to the question of getting a fair fiscal settlement for Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I rise primarily to speak to new clauses 2 and 3 in my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts). I intend to push them to a vote, with the leave of the Committee, but I understand that that will take place on the second day of the Committee, as opposed to today.

Amendment 32 is a technical amendment that should not be controversial. The Welsh language has thankfully gained official status in Wales. The National Assembly is a bilingual body and official statements must be made in both languages. There is, therefore, no need for the Bill to include such a provision. I support the principle of clause 8, which essentially means that before any changes can be made to the new constitutional powers devolved in the Bill, the support of two thirds of Assembly Members would be required. This would essentially require cross-party consensus to change the name of the Assembly, people’s entitlement to vote, the electoral system, constituency numbers and the number of elected representatives in the National Assembly.

I look forward to a swift consensus developing around renaming the National Assembly “the Senedd”, which would help to create clearer boundaries between the legislature and the Executive. Despite previous changes to the Welsh constitution, far too many people and commentators cannot distinguish between the work of the Executive, the Welsh Government, and the work of the legislature, the National Assembly. I also look forward to a consensus developing around votes for 16-year-olds. If an individual is old enough to start full-time employment or serve in the armed forces, they must have a say over who gets to form the Government. Extending the franchise to 16-year-olds during the Scottish referendum was a huge success, and we should aim to replicate it in Wales, not least because it would mean only eight more years before my daughter can vote for herself, as opposed to filling in my ballot paper—following strict instruction, I hasten to add.

[Stephen Doughty]

The hon. Gentleman and I disagree on many issues, but on this we are in firm agreement. I have heard from many constituents, particularly when visiting schools and colleges, that young people want the franchise extended to 16 and 17-year-olds. I spent a lot of time campaigning on the Scottish referendum, and it was clear to me that, if we engage younger people in the political process, not only can they take part fully in the debate but they can add to it. We should all support that.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention. I think that we can move swiftly on this in Wales and build a consensus in the Assembly. It would be a very progressive move, as the hon. Gentleman has just outlined.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

That is a damning indictment of the current situation. I have faith in my own people and my own country to be able to develop our own economy and create wealth. The big plus of devolving fiscal powers is that it would incentivise the Labour Government in Cardiff to stop spending money on their pet projects and start concentrating on increasing tax revenues to spend on public services. That is why I support the devolution of fiscal powers.

[Stephen Doughty]

I have great faith in the Welsh people as well, and I have a lot of faith in the Welsh Labour Government. However, does the hon. Gentleman not accept that even in the short to medium term Wales would be poorer? Wales is a net recipient of funding from the rest of the UK, and that helps benefit all the people in Wales. In the short term, we would lose out. Does he not accept that?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The powers as envisaged do not involve the complete block grant. The block grant—the total money available to Wales—will not change on day one. The only issue of contention is the fiscal framework; I have been making that point. The devolution of the fiscal power itself is not an issue in terms of making Wales poorer on day one.

There is also a technical reason why we should be fully devolving income tax powers. It is far more difficult to create a fair fiscal framework to accompany the partial devolution of income tax as opposed to full devolution. The result of this would be to enable future Welsh Governments to continue to avoid responsibility for their mistakes. In the interests of transparency, accountability and—critically—incentivisation, I hope even at this late stage that the UK Government will accept my new clause 3.

A key element of ensuring that the devolution of income tax is devolved successfully is the empowerment of the National Assembly to set income tax thresholds. New clause 2 aims to achieve this objective and I will press it to a vote on the second day of Committee, with the Chair’s permission. If we have time, I would also like to press new clause 3. We will discuss these new clauses on Monday.

New clause 2 is of vital importance as we embark on the journey of devolving income tax powers. The setting of thresholds is a key component of being able to use those powers based on domestic considerations. The Welsh economy in comparison to other parts of the UK is, regrettably, currently a lower-wage economy, a concern raised by Labour colleagues. New clause 2 would enable the National Assembly ultimately to determine the number of income tax thresholds and the levels at which they are set, including, critically, the basic rate. That freedom would enable the Finance Minister of the Welsh Government, whoever he or she may be, to set innovative income tax structures aimed at maximising revenues for the Welsh Exchequer to invest in Welsh public services, but also to encourage wealth creation and encourage investment.

It has been a consistent policy of the current Chancellor to increase personal allowances—in other words to increase the rate at which people begin paying income tax. Brexit may lead to a radical reversal of this policy in the coming months and years by the next Chancellor as revenues reduce. However, the key point is that as long as the ability to set personal allowances is reserved to London and Wales has a low-wage economy, decisions by Chancellors here could have a significant impact on the revenue available to invest in Welsh public services.

It really is all or nothing when it comes to the devolution of income tax and, as someone who supports making the Welsh Government fiscally responsible, I very much hope that the UK Government decide to support the former. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

[Nia Griffith]

I shall speak to several amendments, in particular amendment 11, which provides that income tax powers may not be devolved to the Welsh Assembly until a fiscal framework has been approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Welsh Assembly.

We have always said that a fiscal framework must ensure that Wales is not disadvantaged by taking on the devolution of some income tax powers. In the wake of the EU referendum result, it is all the more urgent that the Government develop a coherent and redistributory regional funding strategy not just for Wales, but for the whole of the UK.

The EU uses specific criteria for designating the areas that should receive structural funds by comparing the income of an area with the EU average. Areas in Wales such as the valleys and west Wales have benefited because they have a GDP that is less than 75% of the EU average, as has Cornwall, and many other areas have benefited because their GDP is between 75% and 90% of the EU average, including south Yorkshire and Merseyside. It is, broadly speaking, a needs-based system. As Members across the House will remember, Holtham recommended that funding for Wales should be based on a needs-based formula. However, a sophisticated formula would take time to develop.

It is simply unacceptable for Wales to accept the devolution of income tax without an order in both Houses and the consent of the Welsh Assembly, because those measures would give elected Members the chance to discuss the funding and the fiscal framework so that we do not see a cut to our funding and then get told to make up the rest by increasing income tax.

[Stephen Doughty]

I wholeheartedly agree with the point about the potential trap for Wales. Does my hon. Friend share my concern and that of many of my constituents about the uncertainty that is being created for projects such as the south Wales metro, which was due to be funded by the EU? We are not clear where that £150 million of funding will come from. If we do not have clarity on Wales’s fiscal framework and on whether we will be better off or not, projects like that will be in doubt.

Cardiff Coal Exchange

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the future of the Cardiff Coal Exchange.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I welcome the new Wales Office Minister to his post. We have both served on the Welsh Affairs Committee and I was pleased to hear that he would respond to this debate.

The subject of the recent ownership and the future of the Cardiff Coal Exchange is extremely complex. It cuts across devolved and reserved matters and the responsibilities of several UK Departments, including the Wales Office, and the Welsh Government. Let me make it clear at the outset that I do not expect the Minister to have all the answers today, but I hope he will listen carefully to my concerns. I am interested in his views on them and ask him to make representations to the Departments involved and the incoming Welsh Government, and to take a personal interest in the future of what is arguably one of the most important buildings of the Welsh national heritage and indeed our industrial heritage from the 19th and 20th centuries.

I do not want to detain the House too long on the remarkable history, architectural merits and the importance of the coal exchange to Cardiff and the Butetown community, as I want to focus on current matters, but I would be remiss not to remind the Chamber of some crucial issues.

Cardiff became the largest coal port in the world at the end of the 19th century and the coal exchange was constructed in the 1880s by Edwin Seward as a base from which to conduct trade negotiations regarding the coal mines of the south Wales valleys, with Cardiff being the key coal port in the world at the time. Following its opening, ship owners, their agents and many others interested in the coal trade met daily on the floor of the remarkable trading hall, where agreements were made by word of mouth and telephone. It has been estimated that 10,000 people would pass in and out of the building each day. At one time, the price of the world’s coal was determined in the Cardiff Coal Exchange in Butetown. It is famously claimed that the first £1 million business deal took place and the first £1 million cheque was signed at the coal exchange during a transaction in 1901.

With the decline of the coal industry and of the export of coal from Cardiff and the Bute docks during the 20th century, the coal exchange eventually closed in 1958 and coal exports from Cardiff dock came to an end in the 1960s.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate and on his extensive work on the issue. He mentioned the proud history of the building, which is iconic for Wales. Does he agree that the Labour council that currently runs Cardiff should consider all those matters?

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Doughty]

I have some concerns about Cardiff Council’s involvement, which are focused on the officers of the council, and I will make that clear.

The building became grade II* listed in 1975 and there were discussions about the use of the building, which is so important that it was considered as the future home of the proposed Welsh Assembly during the devolution referendum in the 1970s. It was also considered as the headquarters for S4C, the Welsh language television channel. Eventually, it was refurbished and reopened as a major venue hosting acts such as the Manic Street Preachers, Ocean Colour Scene and the Stereophonics. There has been support from across the music and entertainment spectrum and people who have enjoyed gigs and events there. I see my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) here and I know he has been there for many gigs, as has my hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens), as have I. There was even support recently from Sir Tom Jones, no less.

However, the coal exchange closed indefinitely in August 2013 as a result of claimed building safety issues and the imposition of prohibition orders by Cardiff Council, which were themselves a matter of controversy. There has been an issue about the council’s regulatory functions potentially being used unsympathetically to frustrate access to the building over a number of years. We then saw the liquidation of Macob, the company that owned the exchange, and in 2014, ownership of the coal exchange was disclaimed by the liquidators and passed to the Crown Estate. That was an unusual legal situation and led to a great deal of uncertainty.

At that point, I became aware of a lot of local concern about the future of the building. My office is nearby in Mount Stuart Square in one of the other historic buildings of Cardiff Bay. The coal exchange is a building I have long felt a great attachment and passion for. Many people in the community came forward and, with the opportunity presented by its being disclaimed to the Crown Estate, I decided to make a public call for all the parties interested in its future to come together for the benefit of the community and to save the building.

I was contacted by many hundreds of people: existing tenants, experts, former workers in the building and people from the diverse Butetown community and those associated with the building in the past, as well as an extensive number of interested developers. We held a first major public meeting in Butetown in October 2014, which was followed by a smaller working group coming together to form what was to become the Save The Coal Exchange campaign at the end of the same month. It was clear there was a significant appetite for a collaborative effort involving all those who cared about the building to find a solution.

A number of formal claims persisted against the building from Cardiff Council, Julian Hodge bank, Barclays bank and Coal Exchange Ltd, the company that had previously hosted events at the venue and had effectively been forced out of it by the council-imposed prohibitions, but there was great optimism that a solution involving the local community, the council, the Welsh Government, Cadw, the Heritage Lottery Fund, the Victorian Society and others who had expressed an interest, as well as a private developer or investment of private funds, might result in a solution that would not only save this remarkable piece of heritage, but find a use or uses that could meet multiple needs, retain community access to it and generate revenue to secure its future. In the months following, there was much progress.

Over the past 18 months, the Save The Coal Exchange campaign has secured parts of the habitable building, ensuring bills were paid for utilities, attracting a significant number of new tenants, ranging from lawyers to creatives and community organisations and, crucially, challenging the false perception that has repeatedly arisen that the entire building is derelict and at immediate risk of falling down. Parts of it are in a difficult state, but other parts are entirely functional and the public debate has at times been extremely misleading.

Surveys were undertaken and approaches made to prospective partners. The Save The Coal Exchange campaign secured a grant of £10,000 from the Heritage Lottery Fund Wales with a view to a larger application. I commend the campaign for doing a remarkable job in keeping the building going and keeping open the options for its future. At the same time, the Welsh Government commissioned their own survey and studies, and a series of developers expressed interest in being involved.

On no fewer than seven occasions, I met Cardiff Council officials—

[Craig Williams (Cardiff North) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman alluded to the Welsh Government study, which was done by Capita, and the Cardiff Council study, which was done by RVW. The costs were estimated to be in the region of £35 million to £45 million. Does he accept that that is an enormous amount of money, that the issue is not new, that the Welsh Government have sat on their hands when it comes to helping Cardiff Council out with this problem, and that a large amount of money could fall on taxpayers?

[Stephen Doughty]

I have concerns about the liability for taxpayers, but the Welsh Government have engaged proactively and positively. I hope that the new Government will look carefully at these issues.

As I said, on no fewer than seven occasions, I met council officials and was provided with repeated assurances of partnership. I spoke to Julian Hodge bank and Barclays bank, which assured me they would act in the interests of all those with a stake and the local community, and not sign off any deal that they did not think met those concerns. I also spoke to the Crown Estate, the Heritage Lottery Fund and many others. However, sadly, our hopes and optimism for a collaborative and transparent process seem to have been misplaced and I am sorry to say that over the last six months we have seen some deeply untransparent manoeuvres by a small group of council officers to cut a backroom deal, first with a Liverpool company, Harcourt Developments, and then with another Liverpool company, Signature Living, and its owner Lawrence Kenwright.

Despite my misgivings, I have tried at all times to maintain an open mind to various developers and proposals that have come forward. Indeed, I was happy to put them in touch with relevant parties and the Save The Coal Exchange campaign. That includes Signature Living. I met its representatives on a number of occasions, including Lawrence Kenwright on three occasions, to listen to their plans and to ask detailed questions, not least because one of the positive aspects of its proposal was, on the face of it, to maintain the core heritage fabric. However, as time went on and more matters came to my attention, I became increasingly concerned about its suitability as a developer and the nature of its assurances, which seemed to vary at every meeting. I raised those directly with Cardiff Council and many of the other parties but I was assured that they would be fully examined again and again.

So we come to the present day. The Minister will be aware that in the last two weeks there has been a sudden announcement that a deal has been facilitated by Cardiff Council to transfer ownership of the coal exchange to Signature Living, followed by a barrage of heavy corporate PR from Mr Kenwright and subsequent controversy in the media and local community, with nearly 800 local individuals now having signed a petition criticising the deal.

Let me be clear. I am not opposed to a private developer being involved in a solution to save the coal exchange. Indeed, since day one, I have been clear about the level of finance needed. I am also perfectly happy to put my personal concerns about Mr Kenwright to one side in the interests of any deal about the building and the local community. It is easy to provide a fait accompli in these situations—to present oneself as the only alternative, threaten dire consequences, respond to any criticism or reasonable questions as a “slur” and warn of the jobs that might be lost. But we owe it to the building and the local community in Butetown, Cardiff and, indeed, the rest of Wales to secure the right solution for the coal exchange.

I want to detail a few specific concerns that I hope the Minister will listen to carefully. First, on the process, previous dealings with Macob and other potential developers reveal a concerning record. Freedom of information requests have revealed a complex web of negotiations over a number of years, including that the council was contemplating a development that would have seen a significant proportion of the building demolished and the building of a multi-storey block of flats. That is hardly reassuring.

There has been no tender or public process in this instance. The council was fully aware of the concerns during the process, and I do not understand why it did not go forward in a fully transparent and open way to secure the right bid. In fact, one developer came to see me to tell me of his concerns—that bid was supported by officials at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, at UK level—and told me that in effect he had been scared away by the council: it was not interested and he should go away.

In recent days the council appears to have exercised its right of sale to seize and transfer the building to Signature Living. How it did that is unclear and has been questioned by independent legal practitioners. That largely centres on a claim that the council has made, but never fully substantiated, of “costs” that it incurred and then attempted to formalise by pinning a notice to the building some months ago. It appears to have done a deal with other claimants to relinquish their charges.

Lawrence Kenwright has claimed in the press this week that he beat dozens of competitors. On 8 April I had an email from the council’s director of economic development, Neil Hanratty, that made the point that the

“condition of the building has been widely publicised”.

He went on to confirm that rather than dozens, only

“four parties were interviewed by a panel of officers including the Listed Building…Officer and a representative of Julian Hodge Bank.”

I find it very odd, given the UK and international interest in the building, let alone that in Wales, that the council appears to have engaged in negotiations in the past 18 months with only two companies, both of which happen to be from Liverpool. It is a shame that the council did not get together with other key stakeholders to put together a public bid process, working with all those other people who could have played a part in finding the best solution.

I also have concerns that this matter has not received the proper democratic scrutiny. It does not appear to have gone to the cabinet or the leader of the council, or, to my knowledge, to the council’s economic development committee.

I want to turn now to Mr Kenwright’s financial background. I am afraid that Mr Kenwright has been less than transparent about his financial history, and I think it is in the public interest to raise these matters so that others can draw their own conclusions. Mr Kenwright did not proactively disclose these to Cardiff Council or to anybody else who met him. Indeed, the council claimed that it was unaware of them when I raised them with it. He has blamed his past difficulties on the credit crunch and said that they have made him “a better businessman”. He has attempted to downplay them in the Welsh press this week. He told WalesOnline:

“I had an apartment block in Liverpool which went over budget. I was one of the first ones to go bust. The only difference between liquidation and bankruptcy is giving the personal guarantee.”

However, Mr Kenwright confirmed to me personally in a meeting in the House on 9 March that he was made bankrupt as recently as 2010, in Liverpool Crown court on 22 June in that year. The credit crunch of course started in 2008. And, crucially, he was a director, as reported in the north Wales Daily Post on 28 April 2004, of a clothing company called Yes & Co. Distribution Ltd, which in 2002 went into liquidation, with an estimated £1.9 million owing to creditors. The newspaper reported at the time that a Patricia Kenwright—believed to be his former wife—was disqualified from being a director for four years and that her husband Lawrence Kenwright accepted a similar undertaking for eight years, and a Frederick Greenwood for five years. That of course suggests that Mr Kenwright could have been disqualified until as recently as 2012, although admittedly that is not clear.

It is not clear why the directors were disqualified, but the newspaper reported that Mrs Kenwright

“allowed the company to fail to deal properly with its taxation affairs.”

For the record, the Insolvency Service lists a range of reasons for being disqualified. Of course, there could have been another Lawrence Kenwright, so I wanted to ask him directly, and he confirmed that he was a former director of Yes & Co. and that he had indeed been disqualified. It is interesting to note that until recently he was not even listed as a director of the company that he set up to facilitate the purchase of the coal exchange. As of yesterday, Signature Living Coal Exchange Ltd listed only one director, his current wife Katie Kenwright, although Mr Kenwright is listed as a director of Signature Living Coal Exchange Ops Ltd.

I want to turn briefly to the financial model—

[Craig Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stephen Doughty]

If I may, I will not. We have limited time and I have already taken one intervention, but I might take another later if we have enough time.

The financial model that Mr Kenwright proposes to use for the building is the BPRA—business premises renovation allowance—scheme. That was introduced in the Finance Act 2005 and was intended to bring derelict or unused properties back into use. The scheme gives an initial allowance of 100% for expenditure on converting or renovating unused business premises in a disadvantaged area. However, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has announced the end of the scheme from the end of this financial year, after a raft of concerns, and investigations by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.

The council has claimed to me that Signature Living has told it that it has secured an “approved £12 million” and up to a further £30 million. However, Lawrence Kenwright told me that only one of his previous schemes had received full approval from HMRC. I am deeply concerned. Given the investigations into these schemes in the past and the risk of their not being approved, where does the liability lie? We also ought to ask, given the current climate and concerns about tax avoidance and transparency: is this the right scheme to be funding this sort of building? Should we be assisting wealthy individuals and shadowy funds to avoid tax in this way? The Treasury has decided that it will end the scheme, which I think shows what it thinks of it.

The Financial Times reported on 14 July 2015:

“HM Revenue & Customs indicated it saw problems with arrangements involving BPRA, drawing parallels with abusive avoidance schemes, and a year later added them to its public ‘Spotlights’ list of arrangements it said taxpayers should avoid.”

A range of concerns were raised. The FT continues:

“Where tax relief was not granted to taxpayers before 2013, the Revenue has in most cases withheld it, said Mr Avient”—

he comes from UHY Hacker Young—

“‘The Revenue clearly saw a situation where certain structures were stretching the rules too far’...it has issued a raft of accelerated payment demands to repay disputed tax to BPRA scheme investors. These tax bills cannot be appealed.”

Interestingly, on 21 April 2014 the Liverpool Echo revealed the problems with the Stanley Dock regeneration scheme, funded in the same way. Builders were left unpaid; the council was left having to provide a significant amount of grant—multi-million pounds—and there was a complete lack of transparency. That involved another Liverpool company called Harcourt, which incidentally, as I said, was the previous preferred partner of Cardiff Council. The Liverpool Echo reported that it was

“surprisingly difficult to pin down the developers and owners”,

which I think exposes the difficulties and concerns about the transparency of these schemes and their solidity.

I also have concerns about what the building will be—what is the proposal on the table? We have heard about it being proposed as a hotel. It is clear that Signature Living is a hotel developer. I am not opposed to a hotel development and I am sure that many other people in the community are not, but it is still, as of this date, unclear what parts of the building will be used for what. At various times, in various meetings, we have been told of residential, part-hotel and normal hotel usage. In fact, Mr Kenwright suggested to me that it might be a third, a third, a third—or, as he put it, “as much as the council let me get away with”.

We need to be very clear—we need to know—before accepting or agreeing that this scheme is a good thing what the building will be used for. Tenants and businesses in the area and residents in the square—it is already a significant residential area—need to understand what will be there. Will there be lots of big parties coming there? Mr Kenwright has a hen and stag business in his hotels in Liverpool. Will lots of people be living there and will there be parking issues and all the other things associated with that? None of those schemes is necessarily wrong, but the public have a right to know what the building will be.

I come now to community benefits and issues. First, the Save The Coal Exchange campaign has listed a whole series of issues that it would want to be included in a section 106 agreement. It would want to see those outlined and agreed to. We have had promises of jobs and apprenticeships, although Lawrence Kenwright told me that the company would “bring their own people in”. Where are the clear assurances on jobs and apprenticeships?

Secondly, there are existing tenants—nearly 40 tenants —in the building. What assurances have they been given? They are deeply fearful that the council may step in, given its history, issue prohibition notices and see them evicted once building work starts. Where are the assurances for them?

We also have concerns about engagement with the local community in the square. There has not been serious consultation with local residents or businesses. Signature Living has been advertising major changes to Baltic House, home of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. Is it aware of those; has it been consulted?

I have had an exchange of letters with the council about this matter and have had some assurances, but the letter from Neil Hanratty on 8 April confirms only that

“commitment to the above will be secured formally through the planning process”

and merely that Signature Living has “agreed in principle”. We should be having cast-iron guarantees for a building of this nature, with this kind of expenditure and the potential impact. These are really serious issues and we want to ensure that there is that community benefit, quite apart from all the other issues about access to the building.

Finally, heritage was one of the most positive aspects of the Signature Living proposal but, even so, there are concerns. In March 2016, the Victorian Society wrote to City of Cardiff Council officer Pat Thompson, copying in Neil Hanratty, saying that it had heard nothing from the council for 20 months and that

“the lack of communication from Cardiff Council is both disappointing and concerning… we are concerned that without close scrutiny, and clear direction from the local authority, aided and informed by a proper assessment…an acceptably sympathetic scheme, might…prove difficult to achieve. In 2013 and 2014 the Society was involved in consultations with Signature Living over its proposed hotel conversion, of Albion House, Liverpool, a Grade 2* Listed Building by Richard Norman Shaw.”

That building will, of course, be of interest to those of us in this Parliament. The letter continued:

“From our point of view the process was far from ideal. Plans were drawn up hurriedly and without any evidence of the sort of high quality, detailed heritage assessment a Grade 2* Listed Building demands. Perhaps unsurprisingly therefore, the conversion involved some alterations and additions that we as well as Historic England advised were unsympathetic and harmful. These were undertaken regardless, some seemingly prior to receiving the necessary consents… None of this is to suggest that Signature Living is incapable or indisposed to deliver a high quality sensitive scheme, rather it is to demonstrate that without proper guidance...in the form of a Conservation Management Plan and a structural survey, a less sympathetic and unnecessarily damaging conversion scheme is the likely outcome.”

I conclude by identifying a few key areas. First, the questions about the financial background are deeply concerning. What does the Minister think? I want Cardiff Council to be clear about its due diligence process in that regard, particularly on the sureties around the BPRA scheme, given the concerns that have been raised. What happens if that goes wrong? Who will bail this out? Who will deal with the financial consequences?

Secondly, on heritage and planning, there is a clear need for strict oversight from Cadw, the Victorian Society and others, for conservation management plans and for surveys, whatever developer comes in. Thirdly, we need guarantees in writing, not assurances that mean nothing, on the community issues and on access to the building. We need guarantees for the tenants of the building as it is, and we need an inquiry into the overall process over a number of years. The process has been deeply unsatisfactory and has involved the use of health and safety powers and the spending of public money in a deeply non-transparent way. We should put a halt to the proposal, re-engage with the community and other stakeholders and act in the national interest to save the coal exchange.

[Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)]

I put it on the record that I had no foreknowledge of what the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth was going to raise. I raised some issues about one of the developments he mentioned on behalf of some constituents many years ago, and I would not want it to be thought that I had any prior knowledge that he would mention it, otherwise it might not have been appropriate for me to take the Chair today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

Concerns have been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) and by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) on the inactivity, or otherwise, of the Welsh Government. It is not for me to comment on that, but I am sure that the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth will be making his views known in due course.

Two specific issues have been raised to which I can respond. First, I cannot respond to the sales process adopted by City of Cardiff Council, but it is only right and proper that I address the involvement of the Crown Estate, about which the hon. Gentleman expressed concern. It is clear that the whole process was subject to the escheat process, which means that the building was never owned by the Crown Estate. As such, the Crown Estate was neither consulted nor involved in the process by which the property’s ownership is being transferred. That is not unique; it is a pattern that can be seen in many circumstances involving the Crown Estate. The actual decision-making process will be for City of Cardiff Council and the Welsh Government. Although the Crown Estate is technically involved, it is not odd that it was not consulted and did not provide any input in the process.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the tax allowance scheme, and it is fair to say that the business premises renovation allowance is central to the redevelopment plan. He is right to highlight the fact that the scheme will be coming to an end at the end of this financial year at the end of March 2017. He is also correct that concerns have been raised about the way in which the scheme has been utilised in the past. Those concerns, which were raised, I think, back in 2011-12, have been addressed by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and it was stated in summer Budget 2015 that the scheme would be coming to an end. That is still the case. It is important to highlight the fact that the BPRA is a capital allowance scheme, and my understanding is that under such schemes any claim for the allowance would have to be made retrospectively, after the expenditure is made. It is also important to highlight the fact that any claim for a capital allowance under such a scheme would have to refer to expenditure incurred during the 2016-17 financial year. Any expenditure incurred after that point would obviously be outside the scope of the allowance scheme, which is a fairly important point.

[Stephen Doughty]

rose—

[Guto Bebb]

I apologise, but I am afraid that I have only one minute.

The hon. Gentleman’s concerns have been heard, if nothing else. By raising this issue in Westminster, he has ensured that the concerns of tenants, the local community and elected representatives have been heard. The concerns raised in relation to the tenants of the coal exchange are valid and should be addressed, and everyone would agree that the redevelopment of such an iconic business should be open and transparent and should have the support of the local community. However, on the issues relating to the involvement of the Westminster Government, I restate that the Crown Estate process has been par for the course. In the same way, the concerns raised about the tax allowance scheme are valid if this redevelopment does not happen before the end of March 2017 but, as it currently stands, the scheme is still in existence.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

My hon. Friend is right. That taps into the point that I made a few moments ago about the changes that we have made in the procurement guidelines. The Crossrail project, for example, which has used 50,000 tonnes of high-quality steel from Celsa Steel, which I mentioned a few moments ago, is a great example of the UK Government investing in infrastructure and using the power of our procurement to create growth opportunities for British steel manufacturers.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

The incident this morning at Celsa in my constituency to which the Secretary of State has referred is obviously deeply concerning news. Can he say anything more about the incident and ensure that there is full support from all in responding to and investigating it?

[Stephen Crabb]

As I understand it, the incident happened in the past hour. Ambulances are at the scene. I am told by officials that there are three injuries at the site. That is all I know at this moment. As the hon. Gentleman says, our thoughts are very much with the workers, their families and the emergency services at the scene.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

If the hon. Lady is looking for someone to blame, she might want to blame the Labour party, which left this country with the biggest budget deficit anywhere in the western world. And as she does so, the advice I would give her about her local council is to look at its overall spending power—the combination of business rates, council tax and grant—and ask what money it has to provide good local services.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Points of order will come after the urgent question.

Steel Industry

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House believes that the UK steel industry is of national strategic importance and should be supported by the UK Government; notes that the UK steel industry is in crisis and that the recent closure of SSI in Redcar has resulted in 2,000 direct job losses, with a further 1,000 contractor jobs lost and 6,000 jobs to be lost in the local supply chain, the announcement by Tata Steel that they will no longer produce steel plate at Dalzell, Clydebridge and Scunthorpe has resulted in 1,170 job losses, and that 1,700 jobs are at risk as Caparo Industries has gone into administration; recognises that for every direct steel job lost a further three indirect job losses will follow; further notes the vital importance of the steel industry to those local communities it serves, the proud industrial heritage of Britain’s steel towns and the very real threat to these parts of the country should the steel industry disappear; and calls upon the Government to take immediate action to protect the steel industry, including immediately implementing the Energy Intensive Industry Compensation Package, taking action with the EU Commission on antidumping measures, looking at temporary action on business rates, reviewing how regulatory frameworks impact the industry, and promoting local content and sustainability in procurement contacts, and for the Government to publish a full industrial strategy including what level of capacity the Government envisages is needed in the steel industry, so as to safeguard this vital strategic asset.

Labour has secured this debate because the British steel industry is in full-scale crisis, and before they were pushed the Government seemed unwilling to do anything practical about it. In the last three weeks, 2,220 employees in Redcar have lost their jobs, 3,000 on-site contractors have been laid off, and 6,000 further jobs will be lost in the local community. The hard closure of the site means the effective destruction of its steelmaking assets, including what was the second largest blast furnace in Europe. The Government’s refusal to help has effectively ended 170 years of steelmaking in Redcar, destroying specialist local skills and condemning the community to a bleak future. Tata Steel’s announcement about the closure of its long products business in Scunthorpe, Dalzell and Clydebridge has cost 1,170 jobs, and effectively ended steelmaking in Scotland. The news that Caparo Industries has filed for administration means that 1,700 more jobs are at risk across the country.

Alongside the tragedy of each job loss, and the ramifications for supply chains and local economies, there is a real worry that the UK’s steelmaking capacity is being sacrificed on the altar of laissez-faire economics by a Government who simply will not act to preserve our country’s strategic assets. Labour contends that steelmaking in the UK is an industry of national strategic importance and should therefore be supported by the Government.

Steel is important for UK manufacturing as it helps our balance of payments, and it is vital for our defence and security. If we are about to embark on the huge infrastructure investments that the Chancellor is so fond of boasting about, surely we should ensure that UK steel has every chance to compete and win those contracts. To do that, we must ensure that the UK steel industry still exists when those contracts come up for competition. As the industry has lurched deeper into this wholly foreseeable crisis, the Government have been quick to come up with expressions of sympathy, but noticeably reluctant to take any decisive action.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend will be aware that concerns about the challenges facing the steel industry have been raised repeatedly in this House—I think there have been 10 debates—and there have been repeated questions, meetings, exchanges with officials from the Departments for Business, Innovation and Skills and of Energy and Climate Change, and others, for more than two years. Is she surprised, as I am, that it has taken until today for the Business Secretary to get on a train to Brussels and try to sort out this mess?

[Ms Eagle]

I certainly am surprised. If the Business Secretary needs an Opposition day debate to encourage him to do his job by going to Brussels and talking to the Commission after years of not doing that, we will secure more such debates and persuade him to do his duty, which he should have been doing in the first place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Crabb]

We are pushing for a quick decision on the state-aid decision. Labour Members have referred to the German example. I have looked at it: Germany had a pre-existing scheme set up. When the new state-aid rules kicked in, that prevented other European countries from implementing a scheme on their own prior to seeking state-aid rules. That is why we have gone to get state-aid approval prior to bringing forward the compensation package.

[Stephen Doughty]

rose—

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman represents a steel constituency, so I give way to him.

[Stephen Doughty]

The Secretary of State is well aware of these issues, as I raised the issue of state-aid clearance with him and Celsa on 11 November last year. Will he confirm whether the state-aid clearance for the steel industry, which the Government say has been a top priority, has actually been at the top of the UK Government’s state-aid clearance priorities at any point in the last 12 to 24 months—and is it now? It is all very well talking about what the Secretary of State is doing today, but has that been at the top of the priority list for the last 12 months?

[Stephen Crabb]

We have absolutely been pushing for state-aid clearance on this. It is really important. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear today, as soon as that state-aid clearance is given, we will start paying the compensation to steel companies. It is worth pointing out that we have already paid out £50 million to a number of steel companies to compensate them for additional energy costs arising from environmental and climate change policies, a lot of which were imposed by a previous Labour Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for fitting me in to speak for a very brief time.

I want to pay tribute to the Celsa Steel workforce in my constituency, to many members of the community, and to all the steelworkers who have come up here today to meet us to emphasise what a crisis this is and what needs to be done. I have never before seen an issue on which there has been such unanimity about what the Government need to do among MPs in all parts of the House, among the unions and the management of the steel industry across the UK, and across the supply chain and all those involved in the industry.

I am not going to rehearse the arguments because I do not have time, but we have been making them for a very long time. I want to get from the Minister a real understanding of why it has taken so long to get to this point. I do not want to cast any aspersions on the work that she and the Secretary of State for Wales, who is also here, have done. They have both listened carefully and acknowledged the concerns expressed, and I hope they are really serious about wanting to take action.

However, I and many others have been meeting on these issues for well over two years. I met the Secretary of State for Wales and the former steel Minister, the right hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), on 11 November last year, and I was meeting BIS and DECC officials two years before that. We, and the industry, have consistently raised the concerns about dumping, energy costs, the impact of taxation, and the slowness in bringing forth the energy-intensive industries compensation package, yet only in very recent days have we seen substantive action. That reflects two basic things about this Government: first, the lack of an industrial strategy, and of political leadership, across Government; and, secondly and more fundamentally, their attitude towards Europe, on which I disagree with the hon. Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove). We cannot deal with dumping by countries such as China unless we are working together across the European Union.

I want to understand why this has taken so long. The Minister took action, but why was that? Why is this such a revelation at this stage? This should have been going on for years. That is the fundamental point that I want to make.

Cardiff City Deal

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Monday 6th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Craig Williams (Cardiff North) (Con)]

It is a privilege to lead this Adjournment debate on the Cardiff city deal. Let me say at the outset that the hon. Members for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) and for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) may feel free to contribute, and I look forward to their interventions throughout the debate.

First, I will set out a bit of the history of Cardiff and explain why I think it is best placed for a city deal. I will then say a bit about the business community, higher education and other sectors that are doing vibrantly well in Cardiff. Cardiff is a great city, capital and region. The city has huge cultural heritage, with two fantastic castles, historical arcades and Spillers, the oldest independent record shop. The city has a wealth of history. In 1909, the first £1 million cheque was signed in the Cardiff Coal Exchange, when the port was one of the largest in the world. I can see the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth smiling at that; the Coal Exchange is located in his constituency.

More recently, financial and professional services firms are being attracted into relocating to Cardiff and existing companies are expanding, which is extremely welcome. Deloitte is bringing 500 new jobs to the city. Admiral, Wales’s only FTSE 100 company, has recently moved into a new 3,000-employee headquarters in the heart of the city. Principality, the seventh largest building society in the UK, continues to thrive. We have specialists in technology, finance and administrative services, such as Equiniti, which is establishing a new financial technological hub, FinTech. Cardiff and Vale College has recently opened a major £45 million building, which will help students enter the financial services sector. Local firm ActiveQuote, which was recently recognised as one of the 10 fastest-growing firms in Wales, is creating 74 new jobs after winning four contracts to operate health and protection insurance comparison sites, such as Confused.com, Gocompare and Money.co.uk.

Cardiff also has an exciting start-up scene. New technology-based sectors, such as the life sciences hub in Cardiff bay, have become the nerve centre of a vibrant and prosperous Welsh life sciences ecosystem. I pay tribute to the work being done by the Welsh Government on driving the life sciences hub. GE Healthcare has recently opened an innovation village at its base in Cardiff North to help develop businesses and new ideas and bring them straight from the university into the commercial world. Cardiff Start is a growing community of new digital firms and NatWest is opening a new entrepreneurial spark accelerator for young entrepreneurs in early 2016.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. Does he agree that Cardiff is rapidly becoming an important hub for the creative industries? Will he join me in welcoming the work that has been done by Cardiff city council and by the Welsh Labour Government to encourage the creative industries, particularly the new Pinewood Studio Wales, the BBC Drama Village and many other facilities? That is building a real hub of expertise and creativity, which are being exported to the world.

[Craig Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. It is almost like he has read my speech, because I was coming on to the media and culture. Culturally, Cardiff attracts major films and studios through that investment. This is what the debate is all about: the UK Government, with their many arms and Departments, working with the Welsh Government and local authorities to build on the investment being made by both Governments. We need only to look at “Doctor Who”, “Casualty” and, of course, the Welsh soap opera, “Pobol y Cwm”, being filmed in and around Cardiff, to see the great potential we have.

Of course, BBC Wales is establishing a new huge 1,200-employee headquarters in the middle of Cardiff. That is a welcome development with an anchor tenant for the redevelopment of the centre. As the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth has already said, Pinewood Studio Wales in Wentloog has a major appeal. US TV and cable shows, “The Crow” and “The Bastard Executioner”, are being filmed there and they are welcome. Cardiff is of course still home to S4C, and that is welcome.

For foodies, it is claimed that Cardiff has more restaurants per head than any other part of the UK, a very welcome development. A burgeoning street food and craft beer scene has developed through the efforts of local entrepreneurs. Cardiff is also home to Brains, which I was lucky enough to visit with the Prime Minister recently, one of the greatest British regional breweries, established in 1882 and a strong family business.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Doughty]

The Minister mentioned rail infrastructure. We all welcome the electrification of the great western main line, but does he agree that we also need new station capacity, particularly to the east of Cardiff in some of the more deprived areas, to ensure that people can access the jobs and opportunities that might be developed through a city deal?

[Alun Cairns]

It is up to the authorities involved—the Welsh Government and all those who play a part—to come forward with those sorts of bids. That demonstrates the innovative thinking that is needed. The best thing about the city deal is the bottom-up approach. It is about what the business community and civic leaders demand and see as their opportunities rather than a top-down Government approach saying, “This is what you must have.” That is the strength and the benefit of the programme.

The four-pillar approach demonstrates that all can focus their attention on outcomes. All must work hand in glove, with the needs and demands of the business community—the wealth creators—central to the plan. In April, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government visited Cardiff to meet business leaders. When he was questioned about the role of the private sector in the city deal, he underlined the central role that the business community must play and the fact that all organisations must have bought into the plan for the Government to respond positively. We are keen to work with all partners to help to secure the city deal.

It is important to underline the need for joint working between local authorities themselves. Obviously Cardiff’s is central to the city deal, but I was pleased to hear my hon. Friend share comments from the leaders of authorities such as Blaenau Gwent and Monmouthshire. These authorities are a little further away than many from the centre of Cardiff but see the potential that the city deal offers their areas. That demonstrates that all authorities should play a part and that this is genuinely benefiting the region. I hope that some of the authorities that have not yet have been so engaged can take the lead from places like Blaenau Gwent and Monmouthshire.

This is not about competition with the next authority; it is about creating a larger cake in which we can all share. The fact that authority areas in Wales are smaller means that people may live in one but work in another. Everyone can benefit with the right sort of plan. The Welsh Government have proposed local authority changes in recent weeks. These are naturally likely to raise issues between councils, but I do not want those to detract or distract from the opportunity of the city deal. The timescales are tough, but we should not be governed by timescale. This demonstrates the willingness of the Government to work with the authorities and to be ambitious not only in the plans themselves but in terms of timescale. We want this to happen, but the lead must come from the community.

There has never been a better time to invest, innovate or prosper. Wales is coming back. When the capital city region succeeds the whole of south Wales benefits directly, with a knock-on effect to all parts. It is important that all local authorities, the Welsh Government and business communities across the capital region seize that opportunity. Cardiff has a first-class reputation, a brand that is recognised and a strong private sector. We must use the city deal to bind them all together.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Wednesday 17th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I have had several discussions with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe on issues relating to the EU referendum in Wales, and the important decision that has been taken is to avoid the referendum clashing with the Assembly elections.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome the Secretary of State and his team back to the House, and I offer the apologies of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), who has been detained on urgent personal business.

Given that more than 150,000 jobs in Wales depend on our membership of the EU, can the Secretary of State say whether any members of his ministerial team belong to or support the Conservatives for Britain group? What does he have to say to sceptical Government Members about the benefits of EU membership for Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

I am absolutely clear: I want to approach the EU referendum campaigning for Britain to stay in a reformed EU. We have huge support from people and businesses across Wales for the Prime Minister’s strategy of seeking a less costly and less intrusive membership of the EU, and one of the most useful things we can do in this House is give him our full-throated support in those renegotiations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

Well, elected unopposed, anyway. I think that is what the right hon. Gentleman meant.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q9. I, too, want to add my tribute to CAFOD, Christian Aid and the thousands of others who are outside today making the case for a tough deal on climate change. Will the Chancellor explain what the Government are doing diplomatically to support a tough global deal and to ensure that there is a level field for carbon-efficient companies in the UK, such as Celsa Steel UK in my constituency, so that global emissions are not simply increased by being offshored to places such as China?

[Mr Osborne]

That, of course, is why a global deal is so important. We are actively engaged in these negotiations; indeed, the Prime Minister was speaking to the French President about the matter only last week. We are absolutely determined that Britain should play a leading role along with our colleagues in Europe in delivering that binding global target so that individual parts of the world cannot opt out.