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Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe, and to follow the excellent speeches by colleagues from Wales. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) on securing this debate. We have all been listening to and hearing the concerns of businesses in our constituencies, which is why we are here today. I hope the Minister will have some helpful responses to the concerns that we have raised.
I have been listening to businesses in my constituency of Cardiff South and Penarth. I have spoken to small, large and medium-sized businesses and to individuals who have raised concerns with me at surgeries, on the doorstep and on many other occasions. There is a lot of concern. The issue is not minor; it comes up again and again. There is a willingness to get on and make things work, but there are a lot of questions and a lot of uncertainty.
Having listened to all those concerns, I am not prepared to support a blank cheque for the Government in activating article 50, particularly when there is so little information available about the plan. Members may be interested to know that the Brexit Secretary has been speaking to the Brexit Committee while we have been sitting; he has confirmed that no plan will be published until February at the latest, because, apparently, a lot of research and policy work needs to be done. He says there will be a transitional deal only if necessary. That is concerning. When in February? How late? If we are talking about activating article 50 on 31 March, we will not get any clarity on the Government’s plans until very late in February.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)
I do not think there is anything new in what the Secretary of State has said. Did not the Opposition accept the argument that article 50 will be triggered by the end of March on production of a plan before that?
Stephen Doughty
If the Minister checks the voting list, he will see which way I voted on that matter. I am speaking about my own views on this issue and I certainly have a great deal of concern about the lack of information.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. I, too, extend congratulations to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) on securing the debate, and on winning a by-election in Ogmore —a task that was beyond my capacity back in 2002.
This has been a good, detailed debate, but it has been lacking in constructiveness. Its title on the Order Paper is “Effect of exiting the EU on businesses in Wales”, but throughout the debate, an acknowledgement of Wales’s strong position has been sorely lacking. There has been no mention of the fact that, in the past year, Wales has performed extremely well on jobs. On every single measurement of employment, the Welsh performance has been positive, and it has been in the top three of the 12 UK regions and nations. As we debate our exit from the European Union, we are in a strong position, both as regards employment levels and how businesses are performing in Wales. It is a shame that those comments have not been made in this debate.
There has been acknowledgment of the strength of various parts of Welsh industry and of success stories in parts of Wales, but we need to look at the overall performance of the Welsh economy since 2010. Wales’s employment growth has been well above that of the UK as a whole. We have seen unemployment in Wales fall, and I am happy to say that that is because of a constructive relationship between the UK and Welsh Governments. That is something we should hear a bit more about, rather than the scaremongering we hear when people continually ask whether there will be job losses as a result of leaving the European Union.
Wayne David
Does the Minister agree that the most disappointing aspect of this debate has been the absence of a single speech from a Conservative party Member of Parliament for Wales?
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Will the Minister take an intervention from me?
Guto Bebb
I will of course give way to my Parliamentary Private Secretary—no, had I better not. Certainly, the debate has been interesting, but hon. Members are well aware that Members have responsibilities in different parts of the House and are in different debates that are going on, and it is unworthy of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) to try to score that political point.
Going back to the success of the Welsh economy, we need to identify the fact that small businesses are a great part of that success story. Small businesses are growing. Indeed, we have seen the figures that show that small businesses’ growth in turnover in Wales has been among the best in the UK during the past year. The best performing part of the entire UK has been small businesses in Cardiff, which have enjoyed 12% growth in turnover, outpacing the situation in London. I pay tribute to all small businesses in Cardiff that have been part of that success story.
Stephen Doughty
I pay tribute to them, too, as I did in my speech. On the Minister’s earlier comments, to be fair, I did make it very clear that there had been work on the city deal and on the enterprise zone, and that kind of constructive work needs to continue through this period of uncertainty. Does he agree that the very real concerns being raised by a number of businesses in my constituency, despite that growth, are valid and need to be answered?
Guto Bebb
As a Minister in the Wales Office, I fully accept that small businesses have concerns—indeed, all businesses in all sectors of the economy in Wales have concerns—but they also see opportunities, and we have heard precious little on those opportunities in this debate. The Secretary of State for Wales and I have been out dealing with stakeholders regularly—those in the farming industry, the third sector, the university sector and the further education sector; businesses small and large; the Confederation of British Industry; the Institute of Directors; and the Federation of Small Businesses. We have been talking to all those stakeholders. We have been doing that because this change—the decision made by the people of Wales and the United Kingdom to leave the European Union—is huge, so it is imperative that we talk to individuals, businesses and stakeholders who will be affected.
A Government who were arrogant enough to think that they had all the answers are not a Government I would want to be a part of. The fantastic thing about my involvement in the Wales Office since March has been the opportunity to meet so many stakeholders in Wales and listen to what they want from the decision that was made to leave the European Union.
Ian C. Lucas
I am grateful to the Minister for showing his usual courtesy in giving way a great deal. Will he give me an example of one opportunity arising from Brexit that the university sector has told him about?
Guto Bebb
The hon. Gentleman asks an important question. I have to respond in the same way as some of the hon. Members who mentioned businesses in their constituency but indicated an unwillingness to name them. I was recently in discussion with a university in Wales that saw huge potential to increase its attractiveness to students from outside the European Union; however, it is not a case of either/or. It wants to attract an increasing number of students from outside the European Union, but it also wants to ensure that it keeps the markets that it has in the European Union. These discussions are wide-ranging, and it is fair to say that the responses that we are getting, even from the further and higher education sector, are not as negative as the hon. Gentleman implies.
Kirsten Oswald
It is interesting that the Minister has come to the subject of universities, which I mentioned. Does he care to elaborate on his suggestion that universities do not particularly see this as a negative, because that is contrary to the discussions that I have had with them? Also, will he talk about overseas students and the impact of his Government’s plans for overseas students on universities in Wales, Scotland and elsewhere?
Guto Bebb
The whole point of having consultations with universities is to understand their perspective. Their perspective is that, yes, they have concerns about elements of the decision to leave the European Union, but they are not entirely negative. I am not speaking about a single university; between myself and the Secretary of State, we have spoken to most of the higher education system in Wales since the decision to leave the European Union. We have listened to those concerns, but we are also hearing that they see opportunities. More than any sector, the higher education sector is aware that its success and ability to play a full part in the development of cutting-edge technologies, for example, is dependent not only on our membership of the European Union, but on our partnerships with all parts of the world. I argue that the doom and gloom of some people here, when it comes to us no longer being part and parcel of European projects supporting higher education, can be challenged through agreements with states such as Israel. Again, we need to be slightly more constructive when talking about the response.
Several hon. Members rose—
Guto Bebb
I have to make progress, because I have only five minutes left. We also need to talk about exports. We are doing extremely well: Wales has doubled its exporting since 1999, which has been a great success, and many people have highlighted the fact that we export some 60% of our products outside the European Union. We appreciate the importance of the single market to businesses in Wales, but it would be wrong to think that the single market is the only option for Welsh businesses.
I welcome the comments about the importance of the city region deals; they are important. I would not want to underestimate the importance of the guarantee given by the Chancellor that European funding will go on until the point at which we leave the European Union. I am grateful that that has been recognised by some Members.
On Wales’s involvement in the negotiations, we should take some comfort from the fact that there is an ongoing engagement process from the Wales Office and across Government. The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and the Secretary of State responsible for foreign investment have been to Wales, so the engagement is there. In addition, cross-Government committees have been set up to ensure that the voices of the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly are heard. I have sat on those committees, and I say to the spokesman for the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald), that the contributions made in those committees by members of the Scottish national Government in Edinburgh have been incredibly constructive and positive. Of course there are differences, but the efforts to create a structure that allows all the Parliaments and nations of the UK to contribute to this discussion are very important.
It is only fair to respond to the questions asked by the hon. Member for Ogmore. It is fair to say that we have offered guarantees on European funding up until the point of exit from the European Union. The questions on funding after our exit from the European Union also relate to what we would qualify for after our exit from the European Union. That still needs to be looked at and considered carefully. I am unable to give any assurances on that issue at this point in time; indeed, it would be irresponsible of me to do so.
I was asked about skills, and there is an issue about that. We have had huge investments from European Union funds to support skills, but it is imperative to highlight that some degree of certainty is offered. In addition, I point the hon. Gentleman to the fantastic agreement between the UK Government and the Welsh Government in ensuring that there is a support structure in place for the apprenticeship levy; I hope that he welcomes that.
Another issue that has been highlighted is the triggering of article 50. Most, but not all, hon. Members on the Opposition Benches have supported the fact that there will be more information provided before we trigger article 50. Obviously, the Labour party has stated that it will support the triggering of article 50, and I welcome that development.
We are moving forward, and a detailed plan will be forthcoming, but it is important to stress again that the reason why we are not providing an ongoing running commentary is that we have an obligation to listen to the views of people in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. Hon. Members, especially those sitting on the Opposition Benches, ask for clarity; today I have heard a degree of difference in the calls for membership of the single market. For example, the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) highlighted that there are genuine concerns in his constituency and other parts of north-east Wales about migration. He will be aware that any efforts to deal with that issue would have an impact on our membership of the single market. That is a more subtle response than we have heard from some hon. Members.
Finally, on this desperate need for information, I fully accept that businesses in Wales need to know more. However, I share the concerns of the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts); I have had more correspondence relating to business rates than on this specific issue. We have the responsibility to do the right thing. I am confident that we will, and in February more information will be made available.
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).