Guto Bebb
Main Page: Guto Bebb (Independent - Aberconwy)Department Debates - View all Guto Bebb's debates with the Wales Office
(7 years, 10 months ago)
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Liz Saville Roberts
If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, the amendment goes into detail, even in relation to the court structures and the professional structures that would be required. I argue strongly that we are travelling on this trajectory, and what is important is the quality of justice and the quality of decisions made in Wales in relation to legislation made in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)
My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies) asked a pertinent question: what are the advantages to Wales? The St David’s Day agreement was about powers for a purpose. Has the hon. Lady read the fantastic article by Gwion Lewis in this month’s issue of Barn, in which he highlights the way in which the Supreme Court met in Cardiff and made a decision in relation to Welsh language education in Denbighshire, a decision which I am sure the hon. Lady would welcome? What would a distinct legal jurisdiction have decided differently in that case?
Liz Saville Roberts
We would argue that a distinct legal jurisdiction is needed for the quality of decisions to be made consistently. We are travelling in that direction. We need clarity on the matter. To be simple about it and not to reiterate the details that are in the amendment, the Welsh Assembly is the only legislature in the world that does not have its own jurisdiction. That in itself is a pretty clear argument.
We offer the Government a pragmatic solution to the issue that will ensure the long-term sustainability of this devolution deal for the people of Wales. Obviously, Plaid Cymru would prefer to see a clean break, with the creation of a separate legal jurisdiction, but our amendment offers a reasonable position that I hope the whole House will recognise as necessary. For this reason, I will be pressing the amendment to the vote.
On the Government and Opposition amendments, new clause 4 stops the devolution of decision-making powers over when to hold elections for police and crime commissioners in Wales. As it is another example of this Government’s shameful misunderstanding of what devolution means, we will not support this amendment if it is pressed to the vote, but we do not intend voting against it. Government amendments 3 to 8 are uncontentious and technical, and warrant no further discussion at this point.
A number of Government amendments are based on recommendations made in July by the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales, Elin Jones. Plaid Cymru had tabled these amendment in earlier stages and we are pleased to see that the Secretary of State has now endorsed our position. We are disappointed, however, that the Government have failed to recognise the Presiding Officer’s recommendations concerning the legislative consent process and the restoration of the Assembly’s current ability to legislate in an “ancillary” way on exceptions from competence.
Amendments 9 to 12 give the Presiding Officer, rather than the Secretary of State, powers over when to call a Welsh general election. These amendments, based on the Presiding Officer’s recommendations, are welcomed by Plaid Cymru and will be supported. We support Government amendments 14 to 18, which make changes to the finance provisions in the Bill. These are further examples of amendments proposed by the Presiding Officer which the Government have accepted. We also support the related consequential amendments, Government amendments 30, 31, 44, 48 and 51.
Amendments 19 to 22 laid by the Government insert the Welsh names of institutions into the Bill for clarity. These amendments are not controversial. Government amendment 26, which clarifies the ability of an Assembly Act to specify the prosecutor of an offence within devolved competence, is also based on the recommendations made by the Presiding Officer. I appreciate the Secretary of State’s explanation of this clarifying amendment, which we support.
Plaid Cymru also supports Government amendments 28 and 29. Amendment 28 allows for changes to the role of the Children’s Commissioner by the Assembly. Amendment 29 removes prohibition on the ability of an Assembly Act to modify sections 145 and 145A of the Government of Wales Act 1998, relating to examinations and studies by the Auditor General for Wales—again, a change suggested by the Presiding Officer. Government amendments 32 and 34 to 36 are technical changes or remove errors in the wording of the Bill. Government amendment 33 clarifies areas in which areas UK Ministers will retain authority. Although this is a technical change, we fundamentally disagree with the principle of this section of the Bill and will, if necessary, vote against the amendment.
Government amendments 39 to 42 increase the number of devolved bodies listed in schedule 4. We are pleased that the list has expanded, but the fact that the Government has had to expand it before the Bill is even enacted illustrates what Plaid Cymru has said from the beginning—that the Bill is overly restrictive and in the long term will inevitably become unworkable.
Amendment 43, tabled by the Government, allows Orders in Council to be used to make provision for proclamations related to the timing of elections, as provided for by amendments 11 and 12. As we support amendments 11 and 12, we will also support this amendment. Government amendment 49 is a technical change relating to the understanding of Wales public authorities. This amendment is not contentious. Government amendments 52 to 57 are either consequential or technical amendments. There is no need for comment on them at this time.
In conclusion, I look forward to the Secretary of State’s response.
Hywel Williams
No, of course not. This is Plaid Cymru’s policy and this is the argument that has been made by various highly respected academic commentators, and others for that matter. [Interruption.] The Minister starts from the business end; I start from the governance end. The governance of S4C and how it should be regulated should be a matter for the Welsh Government. The argument is in the nature of the beast. It is S4C—Sianel Pedwar Cymru. It is broadcasting in Welsh in Wales: why should not the Welsh Government have responsibility? The case is unanswerable.
Hywel Williams
The television landscape has certainly changed enormously. Many broadcasters are now running a great number of repeats. The point about Welsh language television is that it has a purpose beyond just providing entertainment, or even informing or educating: it is there as part of the national project to sustain, speaking in dramatic terms, the rescue of the language.
Guto Bebb
I cannot allow the slur from the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) to go unresponded to. A significant proportion of the repeats on S4C are children’s programmes. As the father of five children, I am aware that the more repeats there are, the more they enjoy them.
Hywel Williams
Responding also as the father of five children, I would say that repeats of “Cyw” are very popular in my house.
The report of the Institute of Welsh Affairs, “The UK’s Changing Union”, called for full responsibility for S4C to be transferred to the National Assembly and thus to the Welsh Government. Plaid Cymru Members are of the firm belief that Wales should have full control over a channel that belongs to and serves the Welsh people. We should determine its future. The Secretary of State said last week that he will continue to do everything he can to ensure the channel’s continued success, and I take him at his word—I am sure that he meant it very sincerely. Conservative Members claim to have devolution at the core of their world view. “Cut out the mandarins!”, they cry. “The user”, or the customer even, “is king—take it as low as it can go—and not those dratted men in Whitehall.” If so, is not the control of a medium that serves Wales and Wales alone best placed in the hands of the people that it serves? I look forward with interest to hearing the Secretary of State justify this peculiar inconsistency on the issue.
Amendment 66 was tabled following concerns expressed to us by the Welsh Language Commissioner regarding the Bill’s potential effect on the National Assembly’s powers to legislate on matters pertaining to the Welsh language. A possible effect of schedule 2 is that should the National Assembly wish to legislate for the Welsh language, it would require the consent of the relevant UK Minister to confer, impose, modify or remove within that legislation the Welsh language functions of Ministers of the Crown, Government Departments, and other reserved authorities.
Under the current settlement, ministerial consent is required only when legislating to impose Welsh language functions on Ministers of the Crown. The ministerial consent provisions of the Wales Bill in relation to the Welsh language appear to apply to a wider range of persons than is currently the case, which would be more restrictive. I would be interested to hear the Secretary of State’s explanation or justification for that.
Let us consider a practical example. The Welsh Language Commissioner has already engaged in the statutory processes that would result in placing a duty on bodies such as Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the Crown Prosecution Service, Ofcom and the BBC to adopt Welsh language standards. Our amendment would remove the requirement for ministerial consent for Acts of the Assembly affecting functions of reserved authorities, public authorities and Ministers where the Act of the Assembly relates to a Welsh language function. I am sure that the House will agree that that provision is fair and reasonable, given that the Welsh language is, quintessentially, a devolved issue.
Guto Bebb
I suspect that I can offer clarity and reassurance on this issue. There is nothing in the Bill that will affect the Welsh language retrospectively. For example, any standards imposed on a public body as a result of the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 will still be imposed by the Welsh Language Commissioner, with no effect as a result of changes in this Bill. If a future Welsh Language Measure were to be proposed, then it would have an effect, but that takes us back to the issue of democratic accountability. After all, the Welsh language is not only the language of Wales; it should also be the responsibility of this House. On the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, there is nothing in the Bill that will affect the 2011 Measure and the way in which standards are imposed under it.
Hywel Williams
I accept that the Minister sincerely holds that view. I am reflecting on the arguments put forward by the Welsh Language Commissioner.
Guto Bebb
I met the Welsh Language Commissioner in August. We have subsequently written to her, highlighting the fact that the concerns raised in relation to the operation of the 2011 Measure have no grounds. In other words, the 2011 Measure is not affected by the Bill. There will be an impact if a subsequent Welsh Language Measure is passed by the Welsh Assembly, but it does not affect the way in which the legislation—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. In fairness, I let the first one go on far too long. If you do not want to sum up at the end, do not try to sum up halfway through. Interventions have to be short. There are still another three speakers to come. I am very tolerant, but I am being tested.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 1—Maritime and Coastguard Agency—
“(1) In section 1 of the Coastguard Act 1925 (transfer of the coastguard to the Board of Trade), at the end insert—
“(4) The Secretary of State must consult the Welsh Ministers about the strategic priorities of the Secretary of State in exercising functions under subsection (1) in relation to activities of Her Majesty’s Coastguard in Wales.
(5) In subsection (4) “Wales” has the same meaning as in the Government of Wales Act 2006.”
(2) In section 292 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 (general functions of the Secretary of State) at the end insert—
“(5) The Secretary of State must consult the Welsh Ministers about the strategic priorities of the Secretary of State in exercising functions under subsection (1) in relation to the safety standards of ships in Wales and protecting the health and safety of persons on them.
(6) In subsection (5) “Wales” has the same meaning as in the Government of Wales Act 2006.””
This new clause would amend the Coastguard Act 1925 and the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 so as to require the Secretary of State to consult the Welsh Ministers on the Secretary of State’s strategic priorities in relation to the activities of the Coastguard in Wales, including as regards health and safety on ships in Wales.
New clause 6—Tax on carriage of passengers by air—
“(1) In Part 4A of the Government of Wales Act 2006, after Chapter 4 insert—
“Chapter 5
Tax on carriage of passengers by air
116O Tax on carriage of passengers by air
(1) A tax charged on the carriage of passengers by air from airports in Wales is a devolved tax.
(2) Tax may not be charged in accordance with that provision on the carriage of passengers boarding aircraft before the date appointed under subsection (6).
(3) Chapter 4 of Part 1 of The Finance Act 1994 (air passenger duty) is amended as follows.
(4) In section 28(4) (a chargeable passenger is a passenger whose journey begins at an airport in the United Kingdom), for “England, Wales or Northern Ireland” substitute “England, Wales or Northern Ireland”.
(5) In section 31(4B) (exception for passengers departing from airports in designated region of the United Kingdom) for “England, Wales or Northern Ireland” substitute “England or Northern Ireland”.
(6) Subsections (3) to (5) have effect in relation to flights beginning on or after such date as the Treasury appoint by regulations made by statutory instrument.””
This new Clause would make air passenger duty a devolved tax in Wales, on the lines of section 17 of the Scotland Act 2016.
New clause 7—Assignment of VAT—
“(1) The Government of Wales Act 2006 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 117 (Welsh Consolidated Fund), after subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) The Secretary of State shall in accordance with section 64A pay into the Fund out of money provided by Parliament any amounts payable under that section.”
(3) After that section insert—
“117A Assignment of VAT
(1) Where there is an agreement between the Treasury and the Welsh Ministers for identifying an amount agreed to represent the standard rate VAT attributable to Wales for any period (“the agreed standard rate amount”), the amount described in subsection (3) is payable under this section in respect of that period.
(2) Where there is an agreement between the Treasury and the Welsh Ministers for identifying an amount agreed to represent the reduced rate VAT attributable to Wales for that period (“the agreed reduced rate amount”), the amount described in subsection (4) is payable under this section in respect of that period.
(3) The amount payable in accordance with subsection (1) is the amount obtained by multiplying the agreed standard rate amount by—
10
SR
where SR is the number of percentage points in the rate at which value added tax is charged under section 2(1) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 for the period.
(4) The amount payable in accordance with subsection (2) is the amount obtained by multiplying the agreed reduced rate amount by—
2.5
RR
where RR is the number of percentage points in the rate at which value added tax is charged under section 29A(1) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 for the period.
(5) The payment of those amounts under section 64(2A) is to be made in accordance with any agreement between the Treasury and the Welsh Ministers as to the time of the payment or otherwise.”
(4) The Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 is amended as follows.
(5) In subsection (2) of section 18 (confidentiality: exceptions) omit “or” after paragraph (j), and after paragraph (k) insert “, or
(l) which is made in connection with (or with anything done with a view to) the making or implementation of an agreement referred to in section 117A(1) or (2) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (assignment of VAT).”
(6) After that subsection insert—
“(2B) Information disclosed in reliance on subsection (2)(l) may not be further disclosed without the consent of the Commissioners (which may be general or specific).”
(7) In section 19 (wrongful disclosure) in subsections (1) and (8) after “18(1) or (2A)” insert “or (2B)”.””
This new Clause would allow the payment into the Welsh Consolidated Fund of half the receipts of Value Added Tax raised in Wales, on the lines of section 16 of the Scotland Act 2016.
New clause 8—Youth Justice—
“(1) Youth justice is a devolved matter.
(2) The Assembly may establish a non-departmental body accountable to the Assembly to be called Youth Justice Board Cymru to carry out all the existing functions of the Youth Justice Board in relation to youth justice in Wales.
(3) The Assembly may make provision in relation to youth justice in Wales concerning any of the subject matter of—
(a) sections 8 to16, 37 to 42, 47, 48, 65 to 79, 97 and 98 of the Criminal Disorder Act 1998, and
(b) the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999.”
This New Clause would establish a separate youth justice system for Wales, in line with the recommendations made by the Silk Commission.
New clause 9—Apprenticeship levy—
‘(1) In Part 4A of the Government of Wales Act 2006, after Chapter 4 insert—
“Chapter 5
Apprenticeship levy
116O Apprenticeship levy
(1) The Treasury must make separate provision in regulations for apprenticeship levy charged to a person in Wales with a pay bill.
(2) The Treasury must lay an annual report before the Assembly and the House of Commons on the amount of apprenticeship levy raised in each tax year from persons in Wales.
(3) The Treasury must consult the Assembly before setting a levy allowance or a relevant percentage applicable to persons in Wales.””
This New Clause paves the way for apprenticeship levy introduced in Part 6 of the Finance Bill 2016 to be a devolved tax.
New clause 11—Duty to keep the devolution of policing under review—
“(1) The Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers must keep the functioning and operation of policing in Wales under review, including keeping under review the question of whether policing should be devolved to Wales.
(2) In exercising their duty in subsection (1) the Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers must have regard to—
(a) divergence in policing as between England and Wales,
(b) the need to treat the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality, and
(c) any other circumstances in Wales affecting the operation of policing, the maintenance of public order and the prevention and detection of crime.
(3) The Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers may appoint a panel to advise them on the exercise of their functions in this section.
(4) The Secretary of State must make an annual report on policing in relation to Wales to the Welsh Ministers.
(5) The Welsh Ministers must lay the report before the Assembly.
(6) The Secretary of State must lay the report before both Houses of Parliament.”
This new clause would require the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to keep policing in Wales under review and, in particular, the need to devolve policing.
Amendment 70, in clause 36, page 29, line 18, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
This and related amendments would lift the limit on the Welsh Government’s legislative competence in the field of energy from 350 megawatts to 2000 megawatts.
Amendment 71, page 29, line 22, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 72, page 30, line 3, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 73, page 30, line 17, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 74, page 30, line 38, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 75, page 30, line 43, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 76, page 30, line 48, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Government amendment 23.
Amendment 77, in clause 38, page 32, line 17, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 78, page 32, line 18, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Government amendment 24.
Amendment 79, page 32, line 32, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 80, page 32, line 34, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Government amendments 25, 45 to 47, 50, 53, 54, 56 and 58.
Amendment 81, in schedule 6, page 111, line 7, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 82, page 111, line 10, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Government amendment 59.
Guto Bebb
I will speak first to the Government amendments in the group, before turning to the amendments tabled by Opposition Members. Most of the Government amendments deal with technical changes to the energy and environment provisions in the Bill; I will discuss those first.
Clause 36 delivers the St David’s Day agreement on the devolution of energy consents, giving the Assembly and Welsh Ministers a substantially greater degree of autonomy in determining the shape of devolved energy policy in Wales. We implemented the decentralisation of consenting responsibilities for all onshore wind projects earlier this year. The Bill will devolve to Wales specific consenting responsibility for all other electricity generating projects up to and including 350 MW in size.
It is important that the Welsh consenting authority has the ability to take measures to ensure the safety of offshore renewable energy installations and those who might come in contact with them. Discretionary powers already exist in the Energy Act 2004 for the Secretary of State to designate safety zones around such installations and to determine the conditions that will apply to the operation of such zones. New clause 5 extends those designation powers to Welsh Ministers in respect of offshore installations up to and including 350 MW in size in Welsh waters—that is, territorial waters up to the 12 nautical mile limit, and beyond, into the Welsh zone—and establishes appropriate arrangements for managing instances where an intended safety zone is likely to extend beyond Welsh waters.
Amendments 50 and 59 make consequential changes arising from new clause 5. Amendment 50 amends the 2004 Act to establish that regulations made under the new clause will be subject to the negative resolution procedure in the Welsh Assembly. Amendment 59 introduces tailored transitional provisions for the purposes of the offshore renewable energy safety zone provisions in the new clause. It provides that applications for the determination of safety zones received prior to the commencement of the devolution provisions will continue to be the responsibility of the Marine Management Organisation.
Government amendments 45, 46, 53 and 58 make consequential changes to ensure that the new consenting regime put in place by the Bill operates smoothly. The Bill devolves to Welsh Ministers the ability to use the consenting regime that already exists under section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989 for the purposes of granting consent for electricity generation projects up to and including 350 MW in scale in Welsh waters. We recognise that, in due course, Welsh Ministers may wish to modify and improve the offshore consenting regime and, in doing so, apply a consistent regime between territorial waters and the Welsh zone, where the Assembly does not exercise legislative competence.
Amendment 45 will give Welsh Ministers the ability, through a regulation-making power, to make modifications that can apply in territorial waters and the Welsh zone, avoiding any inconsistencies between the two areas and providing more clarity for developers. In establishing regulation-making powers to enable Welsh Ministers to modify and improve the offshore consenting regime in due course, we are keen not to encumber them with restrictions and requirements that might frustrate them in doing so. Amendment 46 therefore serves to disapply in Wales certain aspects of the 1989 Act, leaving Welsh Ministers with greater flexibility for the future.
Amendment 53 makes technical changes consequential on the new devolution boundary that will operate between Welsh Ministers and the Secretary of State once the devolution of electricity generation consenting powers in Welsh waters and marine licensing functions in the Welsh zone is in place. The changes cater for the fact that a marine licence might in future be deemed by Welsh Ministers to be part of a development consent order under the Planning Act 2008.
Amendment 58 introduces tailored transitional provisions for the purposes of the devolved electricity generation consenting provisions of the Bill. In effect, it provides that applications received prior to the commencement of the devolution provisions will continue to proceed to a final decision by the Secretary of State.
Amendments 23 and 24 make technical drafting changes to clause 38 to reflect the fact that, in the onshore context, devolved electricity generation consenting in Wales will be carried out within the regime of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. To avoid ambiguity, the inclusion of the concept of “planning permission” simply reflects the language of that Act.
Clause 42 provides Welsh Ministers with further executive responsibilities in the Welsh offshore region. However, we need to ensure that licensing functions that are reserved activities under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 remain with the Secretary of State in the Welsh offshore region. Amendments 25 and 54 to 56 modify the 2009 Act to clarify the devolution boundary so that, for example, enforcement officers appointed using devolved powers have no powers to enforce part 4 of the 2009 Act, relating to petroleum production or exploration; the amendments also exclude the Welsh inshore and offshore regions from waters in respect of which the Marine Management Organisation exercises certain consenting and safety zone functions.
Amendment 56 modifies the 2009 Act to give Welsh Ministers powers to make regulations about the application procedure when they are both the marine licensing authority and the harbour order authority or generating station authority. Finally, amendment 47 simply removes an obsolete reference to Assembly measures.
The Government amendments are all sensible and necessary, and serve to deliver a clearer devolution boundary, one of the key aims of the Bill.
Stephen Doughty
The Minister is talking about Cardiff airport, but what consultations did he undertake with the airport management and Cardiff airport passengers? I take issue with him on this: he said that Cardiff airport and Bristol were only 60 minutes apart. Having driven that distance many times, I am pretty sure that that is not the case, not least because of some of the challenges along the M4 at the moment.
Guto Bebb
I am sure there are challenges along the M4 at this point in time, but my understanding is that the distance between Cardiff and Bristol can be covered in an hour.
On the consultation, we looked widely at a number of options in relation to the impact of the proposed change. The clear point is that we have to take into account the impact of changes to APD on devolution. We need to consult regional airports in England that will be affected and Cardiff airport, the single international airport in Wales. However, the analysis, which we have concluded, shows quite clearly that the scale of the impact of such a change would be detrimental to Bristol to such an extent that it could have a detrimental effect on the availability of flights to south Wales consumers and businesses. In other words, it could have an unintended consequence that would be bad for the economy of south-east Wales, because we would damage Bristol before we saw any upsurge in Cardiff. On that basis, we have concluded that we are opposed at this point in time to the devolution of APD to Wales.
The Government have listened carefully to the debate about the devolution of APD and are fully appreciative of the importance of the aviation sector for creating jobs and growth in Wales. I understand the reason that hon. Members offer in proposing the change, but we cannot justify the distortion it would cause to the wider economy of Wales and to the economy of the south-west of England. That is why the Government reject the devolution of APD.
New clause 7 seeks to assign a share of the VAT revenues generated in Wales to the Welsh Government, in the same manner that a share of Scottish VAT revenues will be assigned to the Scottish Government from April 2019, following the cross-party Smith commission agreement and given effect through the Scotland Act 2016. It is important to understand the purpose of VAT assignment, which is to increase the link between the Scottish Government’s policy decisions and their budget, and thereby further to increase their accountability for the decisions they take.
Of course, that argument could be made in support of VAT assignment for Wales. The Welsh Government have a similar range of economic policy levers as the Scottish Government, and one of our key aims is to increase accountability—that is one of the key aims of the Bill. However, the independent cross-party Silk commission gave full consideration to assigning a share of VAT receipts generated in Wales. It recognised that the main argument in favour of assignment is that it would strengthen the link between the performance of the Welsh economy and the size of the Welsh Government’s budget. However, the Silk commission pointed out that it would also mean taking on additional revenue risks arising from factors over which the Welsh Government could have less control. The commission concluded that assignment of Welsh VAT revenues to the Welsh Government’s budget should not be pursued.
Jonathan Edwards
I will speak on this issue in detail if I catch Mr Deputy Speaker’s eye later in the debate. The Minister will be aware that those powers were devolved to Scotland a matter of only a year or so ago, whereas the Silk commission reported four or five years ago. Perhaps the Silk commission would have come to a different conclusion if it reported now.
Guto Bebb
The hon. Gentleman asks me to comment on a hypothetical assertion. I shall refrain from doing so, but it is important to highlight that the Silk commission considered very carefully the difference between the porous nature of the border between England and Wales and the situation in Scotland. On balance, it is my view that the Silk commission came to the right conclusion, which is why we will reject the hon. Gentleman’s proposals. The Wales Act 2014 legislated for the vast majority of the recommendations in the Silk commission’s first report, and our focus should be to work with the Welsh Government to implement it.
On new clause 8, the youth justice system, as with other elements of the criminal justice system, is not currently devolved, but significant responsibilities in relation to the management and rehabilitation of young offenders are exercised by local authorities in Wales, working in partnership with the police and devolved services such as health, children’s services and education. Devolved and non-devolved services already work successfully together in Wales to prevent youth offending, and to manage and support young offenders in the community. The Youth Justice Board provides national oversight and monitoring of those arrangements, and the Youth Justice Board Cymru has worked closely with the Welsh Government to develop a joint youth offending strategy. That establishes a coherent framework for all those involved in delivering youth justice services and ensures that there is an effective youth justice system that meets the needs of young people in Wales.
The Silk commission noted that many of the causes of youth offending relate to devolved matters, and its recommendation on devolution was aimed at promoting greater integration. However, there was no consensus in favour of devolution when youth justice was discussed as part of the St David’s Day process. The Government believe it is important that legislative competence for youth justice remains reserved to allow us to develop a consistent and coherent approach to criminal justice, and the management of offenders across all age groups, within the single legal jurisdiction. There would be significant practical challenges in devolving responsibility for youth justice in Wales while responsibility for the police, courts and other elements of the criminal justice system are reserved.
We place a high priority on addressing youth offending and maintaining a strong relationship with the Welsh Government on those matters. The Ministry of Justice is currently considering the final report of Charlie Taylor, the former chief executive of the National College of Teaching and Leadership, on his review of the youth justice system. As part of his review, he visited Wales to meet Welsh Ministers and to see local youth offending services. The Ministry of Justice will work closely with the Welsh Government to consider the recommendations made in the final report with a view to publishing the report later this year with plans for reform. Given the co-operation that exists between devolved and non-devolved organisations, which we will seek to maintain in taking forward any plans for reform, we are not persuaded that devolving youth justice to create a separate youth justice system in Wales would result in a more flexible, economical or effective response to youth offending.
New clause 9, proposed by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), would open the door to the apprenticeship levy becoming a devolved tax. When introducing the apprenticeship levy, the Government wanted to make the system as simple as possible for employers to operate, and to avoid adverse impacts on the integrated UK-wide single market. Operating a UK-wide levy based on the national insurance definition of earnings is the best way to achieve this outcome. In particular, it is applied consistently to employers wherever they operate within the UK single market, while this definition of earnings is something that employers are familiar with and is information they readily have in their payroll. This also avoids considerable practical difficulties that would arise if there were different rates and thresholds of the apprenticeship levy in different parts of the UK, which appears to be the thrust of new clause 9. For example, as the charge is on the employer, it would be necessary to determine how such a system would operate for organisations working across borders. This would create additional burdens for businesses that we believe are sensibly avoided. In addition, the Government have made it quite clear that devolved nations will get their fair share of the levy, and discussions are ongoing.
Liz Saville Roberts
I would like the Minister to answer my question in this case. There is real uncertainty about how much would go to Wales. How will there be transparency in relation to the apprenticeship levy when there will be companies with a head office in another area outside Wales with employees in Wales?
Guto Bebb
The aim of the negotiations between the Welsh Government and the Treasury is to ensure a fair funding formula for Wales. On transparency, I think the hon. Lady is aware that decisions on spending in Wales are decisions for the Welsh Government, so the transparency issue will arise at that point. I can assure her that the ongoing discussions between the Treasury and the Welsh Government are being conducted in the spirit of co-operation. We want the levy to succeed. Whether a young person is from Wales or England, the aim is to ensure there is support for that person’s training. We are therefore fully committed to working with the Welsh Government, but to devolve this tax would create a complexity that is unjustified in the context of the border between England and Wales, and owing to the fact that the border is so different to the situation in Scotland. That is why we think the amendment is misguided.
Nia Griffith
Will the Minister give us an assurance that he will do everything possible to hurry up the negotiations and ensure that everything is done to facilitate the smooth operation of the apprenticeship levy? There is a lot of uncertainty for Welsh colleges and Welsh young people about how it will work.
Guto Bebb
When the Minister concludes the discussions, hon. Members will be involved. We will certainly try to ensure that the figures in question will be made available. We will be aware of the funding stream that will be made available to the Welsh Government. The expectation is that in view of the number of companies in the UK when compared with the number of companies in Wales as a percentage, Wales will do comparatively well out of any UK-wide settlement, rather than having a devolved response as indicated by the amendment. The expectation is that the discussions between the Welsh Government and the Treasury will be positive. We will be more than willing to provide figures on the support provided to the Welsh Government in relation to the levy.
New clause 11 seeks to introduce a statutory duty for the Government to keep policing in Wales under review. It is intended that the duty should include keeping under review the question of whether policing in Wales should be devolved to the Assembly and the Welsh Government, and would require the Government to provide the Welsh Ministers with an annual report on this matter. I cannot support the proposal. The delivery of an efficient and effective police service to the people of Wales must be our first priority, and we should be very wary of anything that distracts from that. I have serious concerns that the introduction of a statutory requirement to keep this matter under review and to produce an annual report would be just such a distraction that would have a destabilising effect on policing in Wales.
The Silk commission recommendation to devolve policing was considered as part of the St David’s Day process and there was no consensus to take it forward. I remind hon. Members that policing in Wales has already been localised. Everyone in Wales has a direct say in policing in their area through their locally elected and accountable police and crime commissioners. I remind the House that two of them are members of Plaid and two of them are members of Labour, so it cannot be argued that the localisation of the decision to elect PCCs has benefited the Conservatives.
The current England and Wales-wide arrangements for policing work well and the proponents of devolution have failed to adequately address the significant risks that would arise if those arrangements were disrupted. Should circumstances significantly change, I would expect there to be further consideration of this matter. However, in my view new clause 11, which would have the effect of keeping this matter under perpetual review no matter what the circumstances, is unnecessary; indeed, I think it would be counterproductive.
Paul Flynn
Yes, it is arbitrary. I know my hon. Friend has connections and would like to see more jobs created in this area, as would we all. This is, in fact, the means through which the greatest number of jobs would be created. The 350 MW limit is meaningless. The Minister mentions the Silk commission, but that was a long time ago—before we realised that there was a huge question mark over Hinkley. We will not know for a fortnight what will go ahead there, but this Bill is a great opportunity for us in Wales. Amendments 70 to 82, which we tabled, offer a marvellous chance to get energy in Wales. Unlike the curse of energy in the past, when we suffered the dirt, degradation and pollution of the coal industry, here we have a source of energy that is benign, clean, green, Welsh and eternal. What could be better than that?
It was disappointing to hear the Minister’s response to our new clause 1, which deals with marine issues. Its purpose is to promote effective consultation and communication between the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the Welsh Government in respect of devolved fisheries and marine matters. The new clause would put Wales on the same footing as Scotland. It is increasingly irritating to hear from the Government that what is right for Scotland is never right for Wales. Wales always seems to come second when it comes to doling out these grudged gifts of power from this excessively and neurotically power-attentive Government. For goodness’ sake, let go, and let Wales have at least what Scotland has. What on earth is wrong with that?
Powers in respect of fisheries, marine planning, inshore marine licensing and conservation are already devolved. The Wales Bill makes further provision for ports to be devolved, which is very welcome; for devolution in respect of marine licensing; for conservation to be extended to the offshore area; and for consenting over marine energy projects. That is moving in the right direction, but consultation on the MCA’s priorities would promote joined-up, cross-Government engagement at an early stage on marine and fisheries issues. The new clause is designed to promote consultation and information sharing on matters of mutual interest, which could only benefit the public as well as commercial and conservation areas. It is an entirely sensible and common-sense measure which should be accepted by the Government.
We warmly support new clause 6 on air passenger duty, tabled by Plaid Cymru Members, and will do so if it is pressed to a Division. It seems extraordinary for a Welsh Minister to talk about air travel when we know that the disposition of the airports works in a circle. At the centre of the circle are Heathrow and Gatwick, where all the traffic goes. As we move further from those hubs out to the periphery, the problems get worse. Our airport, Cardiff, is on the periphery of the periphery, so it deserves special treatment—just as the Scottish airports do. For the same reason, we deserve special impetus to make sure that we can compete. We cannot compete on an equal basis at the moment because of the geography involved. The traffic flows towards the centre—towards London and towards Bristol.
Paul Flynn
That is because of the wisdom of the socialist Welsh Government in taking it over—nationalising it. I am glad that the Minister draws attention to that fact—this triumph of practical socialism, which is turning out to be a success, even without the level playing field and level flying field that we need. Plaid Cymru has tabled this new clause, and we believe that devolving airport duty would allow Welsh airports to compete on a fair basis with the others. We need only to look at the geography. That tells us that the airports at Prestwick and Cardiff are disadvantaged because of the whole nature of flying and the magnetic attraction to the hubs around which the population is distributed. This measure will have to happen at some time in the future. We should acknowledge the success of the Welsh Government’s action over Cardiff airport.
On keeping the devolution of policing under review, the Minister prayed in aid the four police and crime commissioners in Wales. What he did not mention was the fact that those four PCCs are agreed on the need for the control of policing to go to the Welsh Assembly. Our new clause 11 requires the Secretary of State for Wales and his Ministers to
“keep the functioning and operation of policing in Wales under review”.
It is not asking much to suggest that we should look at it every year. This issue has been around for a long time.
Having spent a number of years sitting on the Home Affairs Committee, I would like to see some police forces kept at some distance from the Welsh police forces. I refer to some in Yorkshire and the Met, about which I have some misgivings relating to incidents involving some of my constituents and indeed constituents of my hon. Friends. I believe that there is a tradition of ethical policing in Wales that has its own values and it would be beneficial to keep possibilities in place and under review. We should keep the light shining in the distance as we move towards it.
Jonathan Edwards
I rise to speak in support of new clauses 6 and 7. With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall press new clause 6 to a vote at the appropriate time.
This is the fourth occasion since my election in 2010 on which I have tabled a new clause or amendment calling for the devolution of air passenger duty to Wales. I am sure that the House will be extremely relieved to hear that I shall not make a detailed speech, as I have presented my arguments many times before and consider them to be completely bullet-proof. I am grateful for what was said by the hon. Members for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), who made the case for new clause 6 both strongly and eloquently. I will, however, remind the House of the broad reasoning behind Plaid Cymru’s proposal to devolve APD to Wales, and why it is significant to the Welsh economy.
As Members will know, APD has already been devolved to Northern Ireland and Scotland. It was included as a key part of the carefully crafted package of devolved fiscal powers in the Silk commission’s recommendations. Anyone who talks to the commissioners who did that detailed and comprehensive work will be told that the fiscal powers were very much a package. I think it very regrettable that both the Wales Bill and the Finance Bill have subsequently cherry-picked that carefully crafted package. Of course devolving APD would give Wales a competitive advantage, and it was telling that the Minister in his opening remarks said his principal opposition to the devolving of APD was that it would give Wales a competitive advantage. The Wales Office says it is against giving Wales a competitive advantage; I will allow the people of Wales to make up their own minds on that.
Jonathan Edwards
I am grateful for that clarification.
Plaid Cymru tried to include APD devolution in the Finance Bills of 2013 and 2014, I recall, but we did fall to some very England-centric comments by the Treasury officials at the time. These arguments have not yet satisfied us, or I imagine the 70% of the people of Wales who support the devolution of APD, as reported in recent opinion polls—as I said in Committee, that is an extremely impressive opinion poll rating.
On Second Reading of the Bill, the Minister said it was right and proper for Wales not to have the same rights regarding APD as the other devolved nations, and he has reiterated that this evening. Why would the Wales Office seek to deny Wales the same powers as Scotland and Northern Ireland? Why would it deny our only international airport in Wales the potential to use those fiscal levers to expand and develop, and why would it deny the ability of the Welsh economy to grow?
Clearly, increasing footfall at the airport would generate substantial revenues elsewhere in Wales, primarily by boosting economic performance across the whole of the economy, not least of course in the Secretary of State’s constituency, Vale of Glamorgan. Let us remember also that, as Members have said, Cardiff airport is owned by the people of Wales. The Welsh Government effectively nationalised the airport and this additional lever would further enable them to utilise a huge asset in the direct ownership of the people of Wales. It is highly regrettable that we have an airport in England, Bristol airport, effectively deciding UK policy, to the detriment of Wales.
While on the subject of Bristol airport, perhaps I should correct a statement I made in Committee, and I am happy to do so. I said Bristol airport could not accommodate long-haul flights and therefore there was no reason not to devolve long-haul APD. I received a strongly worded letter from Bristol airport—as we can imagine—a few days after the debate; it can accommodate long-haul flights. I am happy to correct the record, therefore, but what it cannot accommodate is the world’s largest aircraft, which Cardiff airport can, given the length of its runway. With the prospect of Wales being dragged out of the biggest and most successful trading bloc in the world, now, more than ever, it is important that we connect Wales to the world, and clearly devolving APD to Wales would enable the Welsh Government to do that more effectively.
New clause 7, in the names of my parliamentary colleagues and myself, seeks to equalise the situation between Wales and Scotland on VAT revenues. I will not be pressing it to a vote, due to the time left this evening. However, I remind the House that there is a consensus that devolution of public spending responsibilities should be accompanied by the assignment of significant own sources of revenue. That principle has now been accepted as this Bill progresses, and therefore the debate in Wales between the political parties is about what that fiscal package of tax powers should consistent of.
Wales’s funding framework has been highly unusual from an international perspective: there are not many Governments in the world with significant legislative and spending powers who do not also have a correspondingly important responsibility for raising tax revenues. If the UK Government are serious about securing a lasting devolution settlement for Wales, VAT should be seriously considered as part of the package of devolved fiscal powers.
The Scotland Act 2016 stated that revenues from the first 10 percentage points of the standard VAT rate would be devolved by the 2019-20 financial year. The current UK VAT rate is 20%, and half of all the VAT raised in Scotland will be kept in Scotland. A recent article published by the Wales Governance Centre confirms what I said in Committee, stating that Welsh VAT revenues have
“been far more buoyant than other major taxes, such that VAT has become the largest source of revenue in Wales.”
This is in contrast to the rest of the UK and Scotland, where income tax remains the largest source. The Government Expenditure and Revenue Wales report concluded that around £5.2 billion was raised in VAT revenue in Wales in 2014-15. A similar deal to that of Scotland would mean around £2.6 billion being assigned to the Welsh Government. This would mean that more than a third of total devolved expenditure would be financed by devolved and assigned taxes. By my calculation, that would represent an increase of about 13% compared with the amount to be raised under the current proposals.
I presume that as long as we have a Conservative Government in charge of the Treasury here, economic growth will continue to be driven by consumer spending. If that is the case, it is all the more important that the people of Wales benefit directly from that growth and from their own spending power. By devolving proportionately low revenue yielding taxes compared with the UK average, such as income tax, without devolving proportionately high revenue yielding taxes compared with the UK average, such as VAT, the UK Government are setting the tone in the Bill for an unfair and unstable fiscal position for Wales.
The devolution of VAT rates has been dismissed in the UK in the past on the ground that European Union rules prohibit the variation of VAT rates within a member state. Although we are calling only for parity with Scotland in this instance, the UK’s exit from the EU could open a debate on devolving rate-setting powers to Wales. If, as the International Trade Secretary and the Brexit Secretary seem to want, the UK does not remain part of the single market, that could open up a world of possibilities for fiscal policy. Setting VAT rates could give Welsh Ministers a powerful macroeconomic lever, and could perhaps be used in conjunction with other tax powers in considering the overall progressivity of the tax system in Wales.