Treasury

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on raising a subject that I consider to be tremendously important. I particularly endorse what she has said about Christians Against Poverty and the citizens advice bureaux, which operate in my constituency. Does she share my huge disappointment that there is no Treasury Minister present to respond—[Interruption.] I was not aware that the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill) was a Treasury Minister. Is he the Treasury Minister who will respond to the debate?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Fiona Bruce.

[Fiona Bruce]

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I believe that financial literacy is an essential element of every young person’s education. Including it in the curriculum would decrease the cost to so many people—and to the nation—of personal debt, family breakdown and ill health. Even more important, it would enable all young people to embark on adulthood with a vital tool, and to realise their full potential in life. I hope that the Minister agrees that this is a vital issue that we need to address sooner rather than later.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Government to send a Whip rather than a Minister to respond to the debate?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Members may be disappointed that no Treasury Minister is present, but let me say in fairness that the Whip is a Minister. He is part of the Government, and he has the right to speak from the Front Bench. That is the position. There may be disappointment, but I am sure that we shall hear full and thorough answers. We all look forward to the response from the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill).

[Fiona Bruce]

Let me end by saying that I know my concerns are shared by a number of Members, and that I look forward to hearing the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) shortly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Before I call the next speaker, may I wish the House—Members, staff and visitors—all the best for Christmas, and may we all have a good new year?

Public Accounts Committee

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Thursday 16th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Eight people are trying to catch my eye and I shall be calling the Front-Bench speakers at about half-past 5, if people can bear that in mind.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. Quite a few Members are trying to catch my eye and I hope to call them all. If it looks like I will not be able to do so, I will have to put a time limit on speeches, but I do not want to do that.

Loans to Ireland Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I now have to announce the result of a Division deferred from a previous day. On the question relating to animal welfare, the Ayes were 304 and the Noes were 221, so the Ayes have it.

[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]

We have about 15 minutes available and three more speakers to fit in. I would like to ensure that all three have the chance to speak, so I ask you to divide the time up, because the speeches from the Front Benches will begin at 4 o’clock.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)]

The package is described as a bail-out of Ireland, but it is important that we recognise that Ireland has not asked for the bail-out and that it is not the package that the Irish would have wished. Ireland and the IMF proposed to write down bank senior debt—that is, default on an element of that debt—because they recognised that it would be very difficult, although not impossible, for Ireland to pay back its vast amount of debt. It is not clear to me that adding another €67.5 billion to those debts and subordinating the previous debts to that will help Ireland out of this crisis.

Let us consider why Ireland was pushed into the crisis. The European Central Bank threatened to withdraw finance for the Irish banks. The ECB had extended €130 billion at a 1% interest rate in temporary liquidity support to the Irish banking sector—a courageous and rather risky thing for it to have done. It would prefer that credit to be refinanced on a longer term basis and at a higher interest rate. If the eurozone wishes to do that, that is a matter for it to agree.

What is not clear is what interest we, or indeed Ireland, have in refinancing that eurozone debt into an EU-wide debt. We must consider the funding costs. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has the proud achievement, for which he deserves significant credit, of reducing the long-term costs of borrowing in the UK. Unfortunately, that has gone into reverse over the last three weeks or so. When he came in, we did not give money to the Greek bail-out. We had a rescue package with €440 billion loans and only €60 billion of the dubious EU facility. Unfortunately, that is now being confused.

My hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell) recognised back in May that this was the beginning of a European debt union, but it was only when I saw how the package was denominated that I began to share that view. Unfortunately, it is rebounding on our credit. The EU puts in €22.5 billion, the eurozone puts in €17 billion and we put in €3.5 billion or so. Rather than this appearing to be a bilateral arrangement that we have properly agreed, because it is in the interests of these islands, and that has been negotiated between the UK and the Republic, we give the markets the impression that we are being sucked into a wider EU package and those markets worry that we will do the same for Portugal or Spain. We have seen the back-up in interest rates in the past few weeks, but I ask the Treasury Front-Bench team to make it as clear as they can that this is a one-off involving Ireland. By doing that, we could at least potentially protect our credit from some of the assumptions that the market has built up in the past few weeks.

On Europe, I commissioned an opinion poll last month of 1,000 representative people in the Republic, and more than a third of that sample said that they would like to leave the euro and return to sterling. The Chancellor says that “I told you so” is not a policy and of course he is right, but he needs to recognise that there is a policy implication that we should not make the same mistake again. I shared with my right hon. Friends the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary, back in 1998, analysis of what had been happening in Ireland—how bank lending was out of control and how there was going to be a most extraordinary boom and bust that would serve as a vivid lesson to this country. I also shared that analysis with Bertie Ahern, prior to his becoming Taoiseach. Like the Chancellor, he said he understood the analysis and that we might be right, but he wanted to join the euro for political reasons. We saw the impact of that decision in Donegal three weeks ago, where the successor seat of my grandfather, who was the Fianna Fail Member for that area, has now been taken by Sinn Fein.

This is Ireland’s decision, but I hope, in its interests and ours, that we will work together much more closely than we have been. There have been improvements in relations since the Prime Minister’s comments about the Bloody Sunday inquiry and, given what the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) has said and given his very positive and supportive attitude, I believe we should work with Ireland on a bilateral basis to try to put things right and get a long-term sustainable solution for it and us that is better than the Carolingian settlement that is being imposed by the eurozone and the European Union on an Ireland that deserves better.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

The hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) has three minutes, as we must finish at 4 o’clock.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Given that the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has made an announcement this afternoon in respect of fuel poverty and the Warm Front scheme, saying that it is fully allocated, may I ask whether there has been any request from a Minister to make an oral statement to the House? Many people will be concerned about the cold weather and the urgency of having work done, and they will be fearful that that work cannot be completed before 31 March.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

As the hon. Lady is aware, that is not a point of order for me, but I am sure that the message is getting through to the Secretary of State as we speak. There are other channels that she may wish to use.

Loans to Ireland Bill (Money)

Queen’s Recommendation signified.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Loans to Ireland Bill, it is expedient to authorise—

(1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any sums required by the Treasury for the purpose of the making of loans to Ireland by the United Kingdom; and

(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Mr Hoban.)

Question agreed to.

Loans to Ireland Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

I beg to move amendment 3, page 1, line 4, at end insert

‘other than a loan by virtue of any provision by or under the European Communities Act 1972’.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 7, page 1, line 7, at end insert—

‘(3A) Any loans made under this Act, and any repayment of principal or payment of interest received thereunder, shall be denominated in sterling.’.

Amendment 4, page 1, leave out lines 8 to 18.

Amendment 6, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

‘(7A) Before determining the interest to be charged on any payments under this Act, the Treasury must specify the rate of interest by order; and the Treasury may not make such an order unless—

(a) the House of Commons has determined by resolution the rate of interest to be charged; and

(b) the order provides for that specified rate to be charged.’.

Amendment 8, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

‘(8A) All loans made under this Act shall be repaid by 8 December 2040.’.

Amendment 10, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

‘(8A) Before any loan or binding offer of a loan is made, or guarantee given, under this section, the relevant agreement must be laid before, and approved by a resolution of, the House of Commons.’.

Clause stand part.

[Mr Cash]

I have just abstained on Second Reading for one simple reason. I had intended to vote for it, but I remain gravely dissatisfied by the answer that I received from the Chancellor regarding the increase in the amount specified in clause 1. I do not want in any way to misrepresent what he said, but as I understood it, it was that that was all right because it was about exchange rates. However, anybody who examines clause 1 carefully will notice that subsection (4) states:

“The Treasury may by order made by statutory instrument substitute a greater amount for the amount for the time being specified in subsection (3)”,

which is £3.25 billion.

The next two provisions simply determine whether any increase will be subject to affirmative or negative resolution. An order would be made under the negative resolution only if the increase is to do with exchange rates, but I can see nothing to say that an increase under subsection (4) would be affected by subsequent provisions. I was bound to take great exception to that. It is a serious matter, because we simply do not know what the greater amount would be. We are totally exposed, subject only to affirmative resolution, which cannot be amended. Such a measure would simply go through on a whipped vote, just as the rest of the Bill doubtless will. That is why I abstained on Second Reading.

Amendment 3 addresses the definition of “Irish loan”. I was staggered when I looked carefully at the Bill, because clause 1(2) states that “Irish loan” means simply

“a loan to Ireland by the United Kingdom.”

The background is the recent debates on economic governance, and the origins of the European financial stability mechanism and the alternative eurozone facility, which as someone pointed out is as much as €440 billion, which is easily enough to cope with the Irish situation. There is a very close interconnect at all points between the so-called bilateral loan proposed in the Bill and the mechanism that I described.

The difficulty is that there is an overall determination to do as much as possible by way of integrating with Europe when it is quite obvious to anybody that this is the time for us not only to step back, but to desegregate from the European venture. I believe very strongly that the technique that is consistently employed in all spheres of activity is to say, “We don’t like what goes on in the EU, but we can just go along with it. Alternatively, to satisfy the Eurosceptics or Eurorealists, as they prefer to be called, we can make parallel arrangements along the lines of what we would have done if we were in the eurozone.”

The research paper helpfully supplied by the Library states:

“It is worth noting that the bilateral element”—

assuming that that is what the Bill is—

“of the UK’s support is broadly equivalent to what the UK would have provided if it were part of the eurozone-only EFSF.”

In other words, we would have provided the loan anyway. The Minister may well say that that is not his intention, but that is what Library researchers believe, and they are often right.

Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [Lords]

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

I beg to move amendment 2, page 2, line 1, after ‘believe’, insert

‘on the balance of probabilities’.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 3, page 2, line 27, clause 3, at end insert—

‘(aa) explain, as fully as possible consistent with the public interest in non-disclosure, the reasons why they are satisfied that the conditions in section 2(1) are satisfied.’.

Amendment 5, page 13, line 41, clause 28, at end add—

‘(5) In section 67(3) of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Rules of court about disclosure)—

(a) in paragraph (c) after “that”, insert “subject to paragraph (ca) below”; and

(b) after paragraph (c) insert—

“(ca) that in relation to a final designation, the material disclosed by the Treasury on which they rely is sufficient to enable each designated person to give effective instructions to a person appointed as a special advocate to represent that party’s interests;”.’.

Amendment 11, page 29, line 28, schedule 1, at end insert—

(fa) leave out rule 79.2.’.

[Dr Huppert]

I am delighted to move amendment 2, and to speak to amendments 3, 5 and 11, which are also in my name. They reflect recommendations from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and Members might wish to see its more detailed report if they have not done so already. The amendments are all about ensuring proportionality and a fair hearing.

We should clearly be able to restrict funds that help terrorists in their activities, but people who are accused of such activities should not automatically lose their regular status in this country. We have a great principle in this country whereby a person is innocent until proven guilty; it is a great British tradition and one that we should support. We should also accept, however, that errors are made in legal processes, by the court and by Governments, and that is why we should have principles of fair hearing and high thresholds before we take state action.

Amendment 2 is about errors and the thresholds that we require. How can we be sure that the courts or the Treasury are making the right decision? How much error is acceptable? Various thresholds are already used for various decisions. We have the threshold of beyond reasonable doubt, which roughly equates to our saying that we do not accept even a 1% error—to the extent that we can attach numbers to it. Then, we have the civil standard, or the balance of probabilities, whereby we want to be sure that we are probably right. We want at least a 50:50 chance—in other words, with the balance of probabilities, we say that we want to be wrong less than half the time; we want to be probably sure that we are right.

If we go any lower with a threshold, we take steps—we punish people—when we say that we believe that they were probably not involved in the given situation. That is the consequence of a threshold below the balance of probabilities. None of us wants that, and none of us wants to take steps against people when we think that they were probably not involved in the first place.

I accept the principle of a lower threshold for interim designations. It is more akin to arrest, which takes place at a much lower threshold, but that is not the same as the permanent designation. I strongly urge the Government to reconsider their proposal. They should consider taking such steps against people only when the Treasury believes that they were probably involved, rather than on the basis of anything lower.

Amendment 3 is a simple requirement. A fair hearing must mean knowing the accusations—the reasons why the Treasury believes that somebody has been involved in funding terrorist activities. The amendment includes an important safeguard for public interest in non-disclosure, so damaging information would not come out, only that which we could afford to release. Again, I should have thought that we all agree with such a position.

During the Bill’s passage, the Government have said that, effectively, the amendment’s intention will be achieved but they do not want to see it in legislation. I am always concerned, however, about the principle that we should not write things into legislation but trust in the benevolence of Governments—this or any future Government. If the Minister will not accept the amendment, will he clearly commit to disclose such reasons subject to the public interest requirement, as the amendment says—even if that takes place in a non-legislative way?

Amendments 5 and 11 deal with the hearing itself. Section 67(3)(c) of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 puts a heavy weight on the principle of non-disclosure. Although that is an important principle, we must counter it with the principle of a fair hearing. Currently, the balance goes far too far in the direction of non-disclosure.

In the case of AF, it was held that similar rules are not appropriate to control orders, so I find it hard to see why the courts will not in time hold the same principle on terrorist asset freezing. There are more details on that reasoning in the Joint Committee’s report. The courts have yet to take such a decision, but surely as a principle it would be better not to go through costly legal action, but to save time by making the changes now.

There is a review of the use of sensitive material in judicial proceedings, and I welcome the fact that there will be a consistent approach. If the Minister will not agree to including such safeguards in the Bill, will he commit to the Bill being updated when the review is complete in order to reflect that consistent approach and to introduce a better system throughout those areas? I shall listen carefully to the Minister’s comments on all those suggestions, and I hope he takes on board what has been said.

Banking Reform

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 29th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Matthew Hancock]

In my experience it is always better to be anything than a clunking fist.

I will end by saying this. We do not know what the future holds. We know that regulation is not perfect. It is therefore far better to have one person and an institution in charge of the regulatory structure who can exercise judgment to the best of their ability than it is to try to write a rulebook for a perfect system that we know we will never create. That is why I think that the Government have already put forward such a critical change to our financial architecture—a change that I hope will be accepted by the Opposition and which will form the basis of the good economic governance of our country for years to come.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I call Mr Morris. Are you going to be very brief?

Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 22nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment 1, page 1, line 1, leave out Clause 1.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 17, page 1, line 6 , leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 4, page 1, line 6, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 18, page 1, line 8, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 5, page 1, line 8, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 19, page 1, line 14, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 6, page 1, line 15, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 20, page 1, line 17, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 7, page 1, line 17, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 21, page 1, line 18, leave out ‘3rd April 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 8, page 1, line 18, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 22, page 1, line 21, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 9, page 1, line 22, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 23, page 2, line 2, leave out ‘3rd April 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 10, page 2, line 2, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 24, page 2, line 4, leave out ‘3rd January 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 11, page 2, line 4, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 25, page 2, line 5, leave out ‘3rd April 2011’ and insert

‘a date to be set by regulations made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 12, page 2, line 5, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 26, page 2, line 8, at end insert—

‘(5) Regulations made under this section may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.’.

Amendment 51, page 2, line 8, at end insert—

‘( ) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must lay a report before Parliament no later than 31 December 2011 on the impact of section 1 on looked-after children in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.’.

Amendment 52, page 2, line 8, at end insert—

‘( ) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must lay a report before Parliament no later than 31 December 2011 on the uptake of tax free savings accounts by looked-after children in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland following the implementation of section 1.’.

Amendment 36, in title,  line 1, leave out

‘To make provision about eligibility for a child trust fund;’.

[Mr Hanson]

The Bill was considered in Committee but it was not amended, despite the fact that we had some 19 Divisions, which showed the strength of feeling among Labour Members. I am pleased to see so many of my hon. Friends who served in Committee in their places today.

The Labour Opposition’s objection to clause 1 was well rehearsed on Second Reading and in Committee, but I regret to tell the House that it will be rehearsed again as we continue to explain our objection to the clause. As ever, I wish to help the Minister and be pragmatic by giving him the opportunity to reflect on the mistake he is making in proposing clause 1 and on the issues we raised in Committee, which my right hon. and hon. Friends want to debate again.

My main concern is to delete clause 1, which amendment 1 is designed to achieve, unless we can get the Minister to reconsider some of the amendments we tabled in Committee, which are before us today. I refer particularly to amendment 17, which would delay the abolition of the child trust fund until such time as the proposed child ISA—individual savings account—came into play. We had that debate in Committee and I will refer to it again later.

Amendment 4 would allow the abolition of the child trust fund to be delayed until 2016. Again, I want to help the Minister and give him an opportunity to fulfil his manifesto commitment to help the poorest third of children in society. At the general election in May, he said that he would not wish to see them disadvantaged by the abolition of the child trust fund.

I also support amendments 51 and 52, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), which raise issues that my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) aired in Westminster Hall relating to looked-after children. It is important to return to those issues again today.

Amendment 1 would delete clause 1. I want the Minister and the House to know that, however pragmatic our approach to the abolition of the child trust fund, our fundamental objective is to ensure that the fund remains for all children, as proposed by the previous Labour Government.

I say that for three reasons. First, we believe that the child trust fund promotes saving, encourages financial education and ensures that all young people have a financial asset at the age of 18, which is particularly important for those who come from poorer families. The child trust fund scheme, introduced by the Labour Government, was having a positive effect between April 2008 and April 2009: a massive 823,504 vouchers were issued—about 70,000 a month; more than 74% of the accounts were opened by parents; and about £2 billion is held in funds. By the end of this year, it is likely that more than 6 million child trust funds would have been opened. That is a success by any stretch of the imagination—a success now being torn up by the coalition Government. Those child trust funds would have helped to support our children when they reached the age of 18. That would have been a progressive measure, which is why Labour Members oppose clause 1.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Hemming]

The good news is that we are scrapping up-front tuition fees not just for full-time students but for part-time students, but I think we are straying—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We are going off the Bill.

[John Hemming]

The point is that spending £7 million to give £2 million is an appalling waste of money. Anyone who votes for anything like that will have a real stain on their financial track record, because people will observe the Opposition saying, “This is so important that we have do things in this inefficient way.” It is a ludicrous proposal.

--- Later in debate ---

19:59

Division 123

Ayes: 197

---

Labour: 187
Scottish National Party: 4
Plaid Cymru: 3
Green Party: 1
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 1
Democratic Unionist Party: 1

Noes: 300

---

Conservative: 251
Liberal Democrat: 48

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I call Mr David Hanson to move the next amendment.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Sorry. I call Kerry McCarthy.

Clause 3

Removal of entitlement to health in pregnancy grant

[Kerry McCarthy]

I beg to move amendment 3, page 2, line 22 leave out Clause 3.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 42, page 2, leave out lines 26 and 27 and insert—

‘(2) The Treasury will conduct a review of the health in pregnancy grant, to be concluded by 1 January 2012, which will consider, inter alia, the case for—

(a) the health in pregnancy grant to be retained in its current form;

(b) the health in pregnancy grant to be means-tested or in other ways targeted towards those most in need; and

(c) the health in pregnancy grant to be replaced by a system of vouchers.”’.

Amendment 44, page 2, line 27, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 43, page 2, leave out lines 31 and 32 and insert—

‘(2) The Treasury will conduct a review of the health in pregnancy grant, to be concluded by 1 January 2012, which will consider, inter alia, the case for—

(a) the health in pregnancy grant to be retained in its current form;

(b) the health in pregnancy grant to be means-tested or in other ways targeted towards those most in need; and

(c) the health in pregnancy grant to be replaced by a system of vouchers.”’.

Amendment 45, page 2, line 32, leave out ‘2011’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 34, page 3, line 1, Clause 4, leave out ‘Sections’ and insert ‘Section’.

Amendment 30, page 3, line 1, leave out from ‘1992)’ to ‘extend’ in line 2.

Amendment 35, page 3, line 4, leave out ‘Sections’ and insert ‘Section’.

Amendment 33, page 3, line 5, leave out from ‘1992)’ to ‘extend’ in line 6.

Amendment 38, in title,  line 2, leave out from ‘2009;’ to ‘and’ in line 3.

[Kerry McCarthy]

I am sorry for not notifying you in advance, Mr Deputy Speaker, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and I would be job sharing on Report.

We had a reasonably comprehensive debate in Committee on clause 3, which deals with the abolition of the health in pregnancy grant, although not as comprehensive as we would have liked. The Minister did not provide as much explanation as we would have liked on why he and his Government colleagues felt compelled to rush into axing the grant without sufficient evidence that it is not achieving the purposes for which it was intended. Amendment 3 would therefore delete clause 3, the grant would continue and we would have more time to assess whether it improves maternal health and nutrition, and the health of the unborn child and the child once it is born, and whether it achieves the important aim of getting expectant women to access professional advice during pregnancy.

I do not have time to rehearse in full the arguments in favour of such intervention during pregnancy. In Committee, we heard compelling evidence from witnesses of the health benefits for mother and child of tackling poor nutrition. We heard statistics about how many parents worry about not having enough money to feed their families and how many people on low incomes do not have enough money to provide healthy nutritious food. That can be seen in research carried out by organisations such as the Joseph Rowntree Foundation on what sort of household income would be sufficient to provide a healthy diet. Witnesses also told us of the importance of the grant as a nudge towards changing behaviour—the Prime Minister has been a keen advocate of such nudges in the past. By giving the grant and, in particular, by making the payment conditional on accessing advice on nutrition during pregnancy, we have encouraged expectant mothers who perhaps were not completely au fait with nutritional issues to start thinking about them, to access advice on health during pregnancy and to start on the road towards changing their patterns of behaviour. The scheme was in place for only a couple of years, so there was nowhere near enough time to assess its impact, but we heard evidence that it could help break generational cycles of poor nutrition, poor health, birth defects or even mortality during childbirth.

--- Later in debate ---

That leads me to the last of the amendments tabled by those of us on the Opposition Front Bench. Amendment 49 calls again for a one-year moratorium during which the Government will consider how we can ensure that more women have access—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. May I suggest that we stick to the amendments that are selected for discussion now? Amendment 49 is not on the selection list and nor are some of the other amendments. If we could stick to the list, I would be very grateful.

[Kerry McCarthy]

Sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker. I assumed that they had all been grouped together.

Let me make a general point that links back to amendment 3 and the need to retain the grant. This is not just a matter of putting the £190 into people’s pockets so that they can spend it either on improving their diet during pregnancy or on items that they might need when the child is born. We need to bring people in so that they access professional health advice at the 25th week of pregnancy or, as we have debated, earlier in pregnancy. That is really important and there is nothing to replace it. The Government seem to have no suggestion on how to bring people in through the door and ensure that we increase the number of women who access such advice if the health in pregnancy grant is not used as a trigger mechanism. If the Government will not accept amendment 3 or any of the other amendments that call for more time and a review of how the grant works, will the Minister at least tell us how we can ensure that more women access professional advice on their health and the health of their unborn child during pregnancy? The grant was designed to tackle a serious issue and it is being abolished in its early stages. It is a shame to abandon the project at this stage.

Comprehensive Spending Review

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The right hon. Gentleman is giving way, but will hon. Members please take their seats when he does not?

[Danny Alexander]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

As I was saying, we have published distributional analyses that clearly demonstrate that those on the highest incomes will contribute more towards the consolidation, not just in cash terms but as a proportion of their income and consumption of public services.

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Alexander]

The last quarter of growth—Opposition Members were hoping that things would be worse than they are, which is a pretty poor foundation for any sort of economic policy—took place since the Budget. [Interruption.] Of course the previous Chancellor deserves credit for that much of his work in office—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. A lot of Members want to speak in this debate, and this disorderliness is doing us no good.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Chief Secretary to accuse Opposition Members without any evidence whatever of wishing for lower growth to put people out of work? That is what the Government are doing, not the Opposition.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

That is not a point of order, as the hon. Lady knows.

[Danny Alexander]

Finally, reform means recognising that the old ways of doing things were not working.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Speeches are limited to six minutes, and a vast number of Members wish to speak. We need restraint on the part of all Members, and if they can cut their speeches to less than six minutes, we may get near to the end of the list.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Before I call the next speaker, I am going to have to reduce the time to five minutes, and even then we are really struggling, so if hon. Members can ease up on the time that they use, that would be better.

Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

Well, other schemes are available to help women ensure that their diet is healthy. May I tell the hon. Lady what others have said about this one? Zoe Williams, writing in The Guardian in April 2009, said that this is

“a universal grant to mothers who may or may not need it, and may or may not spend it on vegetables that may or may not positively influence the health of their unborn children.”

[Interruption.] I am simply quoting from The Guardian—I did not realise just how much outrage that would cause in the House. Paul Waugh, writing in the London Evening Standard in June 2010, said:

“The Health in Pregnancy Grant is frequently not even spent on healthy food.”

[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Look, I understand that this is an important matter and it concerns everyone in the Chamber, but it is no good everyone trying to chunter at once. The Minister has been very generous in giving way so far and I am sure he will be generous in the future. One at a time please, rather than chuntering from across the Benches.

[Mr Hoban]

Mr Waugh continues:

“It is spent on absolutely anything the mother wants. A lot of middle class mums simply bung it towards a fancy new Bugaboo pram.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Goggins]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Mr Goggins, you are going to have to sit down. The Minister is not giving way. I know that you are trying to catch his attention, but you cannot stand up for five minutes waving your hands. You have got to get used to being back on the Back Benches.

[Mr Hoban]

I was not sure whether he was waving or drowning, Mr Deputy Speaker.

As we tackle the deficit, one of our priorities is to transform the prospects of the poorest children, who need it the most, through the schools pupil premium which will be worth £2.5 billion by—

[Paul Goggins]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Minister consistently to refuse to take an intervention from someone who has already pursued a specific issue and wishes, in the light of something that the Minister has said since, to take up that issue with him in a constructive manner?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

That is not a point of order. I understand your frustration but the Minister, in fairness, has been generous to many colleagues. Unfortunately, you have been very unlucky in not catching his eye, but I am sure that, if he were generous, he just might spot you standing once more.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The intervention has gone on for far too long. The hon. Gentleman is making his points, but he must return to the issue at hand.

[Paul Maynard]

Thank you for that advice, Mr Deputy Speaker.

There are other ways in which we can and do help looked-after children. In particular, for example, there is a high correlation between looked-after children and poverty. That stands to reason, particularly in terms of their geographical location, but the pupil premium, which we announced recently, will go a long way to helping those children who are in education to make it as far as university in the first place. Finally, on the child trust fund, I welcome the notion of a children’s ISA. I hope that I hear about it in a future announcement or Budget.

I should now like to apply my two tests to the health in pregnancy grant. It is what it says it is: it is about health in pregnancy. The former Prime Minister, when Chancellor, introduced the policy, saying that the Government had received “powerful representations” regarding the importance of good nutrition during the final stages of pregnancy. The grant was clearly designed to promote health in pregnancy, but, when the measure was going through its Delegated Legislation Committee, the then Health Minister, the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), accepted that the bulk of health improvements occur when changes in behaviour occur earlier in pregnancy. Waiting until the seventh month is rather like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted; it certainly does not encourage a behavioural change.

[Paul Maynard]

I could well ask why you did not think of that when you introduced the scheme in the first place. It is a bit late now—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. Everything has to come through the Chair. We have to work through the Chair and not be distracted as we have been.

[Paul Maynard]

Improvements in diet are important, but the waiting times for those applying for the health in pregnancy grant have been anything up to eight weeks, by which point the money that was supposed to transform their ability to access an improved diet is simply not appearing. It would be very easy to dismiss—

[Paul Maynard]

No, I am not going to give way now—[Hon. Members: “Give way!”] No, I do not want to give way—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has given way quite a lot, and if he does not wish to give way now, hon. Members must accept it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Graham]

I have given way to the hon. Lady already, but I am happy to do so again

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. If hon. Members are going to give way, they should give way quickly. If not, the hon. Member trying to intervene must sit down.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

There is absolutely no doubt that women’s health during pregnancy is vital, but I really must take issue with the hon. Gentleman. The health in pregnancy grant was a universal benefit, so a mother of three children such as me could have received it and, in these extremely difficult financial times, we have to make difficult decisions to ensure that the available resources are targeted where they are most needed. The Government are really targeting support for families on lower incomes in a huge range of ways. Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that it is far better to target the limited resources at the families in the greatest need—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order.

[Jim Shannon]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sorry that the hon. Lady does not see this issue as clearly as I and many Members on the Opposition Benches see it. The grant did help people, because many of them came into my office and my advice centre, and I could see that they were benefiting from it. We have to target those people, but I do not believe that that will happen under the coalition’s proposals. Those who need help the most will be disadvantaged and will feel the pain from the changes more than anyone else. I understand that qualification for the grant was conditional on the involvement of a GP, a midwife, a welfare officer or a social worker.

Draft EU Budget 2011

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Relevant document: European Union document No. SEC(2010)473: Statement of Estimates of the European Commission for the financial year 2011 (Preparation of the 2011 Draft Budget).]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

The Speaker has selected amendments (b) and (a), to be debated together.