Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 20th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is a lot of chortling going on in the Chamber, but we have had an update on the spanner situation, for which we are indebted to the Foreign Secretary.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

What steps is the Department taking to provide training on freedom of religion or belief for its officials?

[Mark Field]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question; I am well aware that this issue is close to his heart. He will be aware that Lord Ahmad and I regularly liaise on the issue with our embassies and high commissions. I wrote a joint letter to those on my patch, in Asia and the Pacific, and I have received replies from Bangladesh, Burma, China, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. I am encouraged that the network takes the issue as seriously as the hon. Gentleman does.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [Lords]

Jim Shannon Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Tuesday 20th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

This is another Bill that has been caused by Brexit. EU co-operation has been crucial to sanctions and anti-money laundering, and we have moved quite far along the road together as friends, neighbours and colleagues. A lot of concerns about the Bill have been voiced in relation to the justification of proportionality, and whether it takes us in the right direction to give us the opportunity to correct the flaws in our own systems.

Sanctions, as other hon. Members has said, are effective when we have co-operation, particularly as an EU block. That reflects the limitations of sanctions from the UN Security Council, because there is not always agreement among its permanent members. We need to find our place. Our place is not in the EU, as it was, but it is not entirely as other states are in the world. We need to find out where we are. Tom Keatinge from the Royal United Services Institute has said that we may have greater flexibility, but we will certainly have less influence. Ministers need to be reminded of that. I see that the Foreign Secretary has scuttled off without hearing me, which is kind of him. Without the active co-operation and engagement of Ministers with the EU, we will not be able to be the most effective at imposing sanctions. We should not pour our own collective efforts over the years down the stank just because we are leaving the EU. Unilateral sanctions bring with them a recognised risk that while we might want to do the right thing there may be repercussions. Being a part of EU collective action cushions us to an extent from that risk. We do not want to be marginalised in the world. We must take care to make sure that does not happen.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The hon. Lady makes a valid point, although I have a different opinion on Brexit. Does she not agree that our ability to implement sanctions and address money laundering are essential components of our exit from Europe and that it is vital we have the same protections in place in the international market? We must look at the possibility of even enhancing them and making them even stronger.

[Alison Thewliss]

I agree that we perhaps can and should enhance what we do, but we must take care not to lose what we have so far. We must not lose that co-operation and sense of common purpose against evils in the world, which we have had as a part of the EU.

I support the points on human rights made by the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). Ministers did not quite recognise the point that paragraphs (e), (f), (g) and (h) in clause 1(2) are in the Bill because they were put there by a Labour Lord. She may have made that point, but I did not want to let it pass without having recognised it. The Government should not be taking credit for things they did not do and did not put in the Bill. Those paragraphs should be in the Bill. Anything that can enhance the importance of human rights in the Bill should be there.

The NGO sanctions and counter-terrorism working group, chaired by Bond and the Charity Finance Group, has asked for protection in law for humanitarian and peace-building work, as that is, to a degree, currently inhibited by the EU regulatory framework on sanctions. As the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) set out, aid operations in parts of the world that are extremely dangerous and under sanctions from the UN and the EU still have to have aid workers. They have to build up relationships on the ground. They may not be comfortable with them and they may be difficult, but aid would not happen without them.

Currently, there is not sufficient protection in the Bill. There is reference to general licences with a bit more focus on guidance. Clause 37(1) states that the Minister who makes the regulations must issue guidance, but clause 37(2) states only that guidance “may” include guidance about compliance enforcement and disregards. That is not concrete enough. The guidance should be more certain, so that people know the regime they are working under, know the risks involved in what they are about to do and know if there will be any comeback from the actions they take. I do not think that that is clear enough, and I would like to see improvements in this area of the Bill. More concrete assurances are required.

That concern is shared by the banks. The UK Finance briefing on the Bill says that there is a fear of misuse, but there has to be a way to get around that. It provides the example of banks avoiding any transactions whatever with Iran, due to the risk of being sanctioned by the US—its sanctions regime is far-reaching. That risk alone has a chilling effect on its transactions in that area, regardless of any actual certainty. Sanctions will have an impact on such countries for many years to come, even after sanctions have ended. Banks need to have the confidence that they can deal with a country consistently over a number of years without falling foul of sanctions that suddenly reappear. The people working in such countries need to interact with donors, banks and transport and logistics companies. They need comfort on that. They need to buy fuel. They need to buy mobile phones. They need to make payments to move about the country and to let aid flow. For example, it is not possible to move around Yemen because there are different forces imposing different visa regimes. Moving around the country may involve making payments that fall foul of sanctions.

International Disaster Relief

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 6th February 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) on setting the scene so well, as he always does in debates in Westminster Hall. Debates here often are used to raise issues that are important to us, which is what the hon. Gentleman has done. Other hon. Members and I are here because we share his interest and concerns.

I have been outspoken on the obligation of those who have much to those who have little. We have a duty to help and to show compassion for those in need. However, having been brought up as an Ulster Scot with some Brethren ties, let me assure hon. Members that we are called to be good stewards of our money. We need to ensure that what we send gets to where it should get to and that it helps those who we want to help. There has to be some monitoring and regulation to make sure that it happens. For that reason, although I support overseas aid, I am concerned about how it is used. It is easy to dismiss the many newspaper and media reports, but they raise some concerns about where the moneys are spent.

I am always pleased to see the Minister in his place, because we all know him to have compassion and a real deep interest in his subject matter. There will be no one in the House or outside it, I suspect, who would do anything other than support him in his work. I asked the former Secretary of State for International Development what recent estimate had made of the proportion of the Palestinian Authority’s foreign aid receipts spent on payments to convicted terrorists in Israeli prisons in the last 12 months. The response I received was excellent, and I thank the Minister for it. It stated:

“In August 2017, the International Monetary Fund estimated that external financial support to the Palestinian Authority (PA) in 2017 will total $666 million USD (approx. £500 million GBP). Many donors, including the UK and European Union, restrict their support to the PA for specific purposes and projects, and ensure that none of their aid is used for payments to convicted terrorists in Israeli prisons. No estimates have been made of the proportion of the PA’s external financial support which was spent on payments to convicted terrorists in Israeli prisons in the last 12 months.”

It continued:

“No UK aid is used for payments to Palestinian prisoners or their families. UK financial assistance to the PA is only used to help to pay the salaries of health and education public servants in the West Bank. Only named public servants from a pre-approved EU list are eligible and a robust verification system validates that funds are used for the intended purposes. The UK government strongly condemns all forms of violence including incitement to violence.”

That reply was exactly what I wanted. It sets the scene and puts to rest some of my concerns, and outlines where we are. I welcome that good, comprehensive response.

It is essential that we know where the relief is going, who has their hands on it and who the beneficiaries of the relief are. I always give examples from Northern Ireland and my own constituency because I want everybody inside and outside this House to know about Strangford. I recently hosted a fund-raising dinner for my branch of the Democratic Unionist party. We have a dinner every year and have done so for the past five years. The dinner has a dual purpose. The event is in a local church that provides a fantastic four-course meal for those who purchase tickets. It is in a lovely area and the proceeds raised from the price of a meal go to a charity in Swaziland, the Eden Mission. It does great work: it digs wells and provides schooling and health services. The hon. Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) is nodding his head. Like me, he understands that we have a close connection with what is happening.

I have hosted the dinner for the past five years and will continue to do so. I trust what the mission does and it promises to make a difference in Swaziland. I have seen the children’s choir that the mission brought to Northern Ireland. They have sung in my office and in the halls of Stormont, where the Northern Ireland Assembly functioned until a short time ago. We hope it will function again, but we must wait and see. I know that the choice I made to host my dinner in a church hall as opposed to a local restaurant that would charge roughly the same was a good decision to make. Just over £1,000 was raised for the charity. The church did the catering and we had some auctions.

My desire is to make sure that we make good decisions about how our aid is spent and who the real beneficiaries are. The project that I support sends containers out every year to Africa. The project workers tell me stories about what happens. They pack the container to within an inch of its life. Every conceivable portion of space is used. Sweets and clothes are packed into every crevice of the container. They also tell me that they have learnt the lesson of packing because they found that when they packed expensive items, such as wheelchairs and schooling aids, to the front, those would go missing during customs searches. That is a fact. It happened. It is unfortunate it happened, but it did. They have learnt to pack the expensive items in the middle of the container to make it harder to take them.

When I was told that story I wondered how much of our aid—I pose this as a question—has been siphoned off and whether we are doing all we can to protect our aid and to pack it in the middle, as it were, as my church, an Eden Church, has done in the past. This is why I asked the Secretary of State for International Development what monitoring the Department undertakes to ensure that aid granted to specific areas is used for the purposes for which it was intended; and whether it will liaise with religious missionaries in the destination country to ensure that UK aid is effectively distributed. The reply was excellent.

I do not question that the effective use of the UK aid budget is central to the Department for International Development’s work. I understand that all funding is subject to rigorous due diligence checks and that we have strict auditing and monitoring controls in place to ensure that all funding is used as it should be, and that every project is subject to an annual performance review and a project completion review to ensure that the objectives have been achieved and aid has been delivered to the intended beneficiaries. I am pleased that the Department uses multiple sources of information, including its partnerships with civil society, to be confident that UK aid reaches those intended. However, I would push for greater interaction with those on the ground who are able to distribute the aid.

I again ask the Minister whether he will outline what work is done with NGOs to see that aid reaches the mouths of the babies with bellies swollen from malnutrition, and not the custom official with a swollen belly from too much food. It may be a little harsh to say that, but it is a fact. I have seen photographs—we have all seen them—of bellies swollen because of malnutrition and a big guy across the way whose idea of a balanced meal is probably two hamburgers in each hand. He seems to indulge in food when others are starving. I feel genuinely aggrieved by that. When we see the starving children, any person with any compassion whatever would be well aware of that. Having heard at first hand the struggles that children in Africa and other areas go through to survive, and understanding that there is a limited amount that this country can afford to give, every penny must be made to count. That is why I urge the Government again to ensure that it counts on the ground and not simply on a checklist on a desk.

Should we give aid internationally, despite the pressure we face at home? Yes, we should, and I fully endorse the Minister’s and the Government’s stand. Indeed, they have cross-party support. Should we account for every penny, every blanket, every grain of rice? We must, because it is our job to be good stewards. Should we make use of on-the-ground agencies and bodies? That is wisdom and good stewardship. I thank DFID and the Minister for the leadership and stewardship that he gives to the Department. That is why we have trust in him and support him. 1 want to make sure we are doing all that is possible to get it right.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Democracy in Hong Kong

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) for her contribution. She is clearly a lady with a big heart, and she presented the case very well. Well done to her. Last week in the Holocaust debate, I quoted a poem:

“First they came… and I did not speak out.”

I recognise that we are not talking about the same thing today, but there is a similarity that we should speak out about. Looking at the situation in Hong Kong and the response to date, I am uncomfortable, as other hon. Members have said that they are.

I often say that I am proud to be a Member of Parliament in the greatest seat of democracy in the world. It is an honour that I do not take lightly. While I am standing here representing my constituents, I am mindful that with great power comes great responsibility. I am sorry to say—please do not interpret my words as an attack on anyone in this place—that we are not living up to our responsibility when it comes to Hong Kong. It is good to see the Minister in his place. I believe there is no better person to respond to this debate, and I mean that with all sincerity. I look forward to his response.

We all know the background: Hong Kong was handed back to China in 1997 following the 1984 agreement between China and Britain. China agreed to govern Hong Kong on the principle of one country, two systems, and the city would be able to enjoy a high degree of autonomy, except on foreign and defence affairs, for 50 years, as the hon. Member for Gordon (Colin Clark) said very clearly. I am not a mathematician, but we have not reached the end of those 50 years. If a loan had been defaulted on, we would not write it off; where there is a prison sentence, we would not allow early release; yet here we appear to have backed off. As I often say, “so sad, too bad.” The abuse of human rights, the right to worship and the right to express oneself in a democratic process—we have a responsibility to these people, and we are not fulfilling it.

As chair of the all-party parliamentary group for international freedom of religion or belief, I take very seriously any form of persecution, and I am constantly asking the Government—as the Minister knows—to step in and speak out on behalf of these people. People who have arranged peaceful protests are being imprisoned. Three and a half years ago, I served on the armed forces parliamentary scheme run by the Royal College of Defence Studies. One of the representatives there was the chief of Hong Kong police. He told me about the number of protests, because I was interested to hear how things were going, and he illustrated to me that protests were able to go ahead. Today they are not. Today people are under the cosh. Today, they can face a jail sentence. We have to step out against that.

Avery Ng, the chairman of the League of Social Democrats, told The Guardian:

“It is ridiculous for the Chinese government to claim that the joint declaration is a historical document. You don’t sign a contract and claim that it is historical the second day after the contract was signed.”

How true that is! He continued:

“I believe the UK government has legal, moral and political responsibility to come out and say the right thing.”

I agree with those sentiments, and while I do not believe that we have humiliated ourselves—I do not say that for one second—we have not draped ourselves in honour, either.

Yes, we would appreciate a good relationship with China to enhance trade, especially in a post-Brexit Britain, but we cannot sell ourselves, our integrity or our obligations off to achieve this. Our products are top-quality. Our relationship has gradually built up. While I firmly believe that organising a boycott of Chinese products would be counterproductive and the wrong thing to do, I do not believe that we have lost the ability to speak out about our former colony, and to instigate a real and meaningful discussion regarding these cases and what they mean for the people of Hong Kong.

Last sentence, Mr Streeter. I am asking the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for more than a strongly worded email. Let us discuss this face-to-face and make the case for those who are not being allowed to speak out for themselves. I often say that we speak for those who have no voice.

[Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair)]

I remind hon. Members that Opposition Front Benchers have five minutes each, and the Minister has 10 minutes. That should allow a few moments for Fiona Bruce to respond at the end.

Paradise Golf Resort, Morocco

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. I and others present have constituents who have been defrauded. Does he agree that it is past time that our Government stepped up on behalf of the 800 investors who have been defrauded, and used all diplomatic pressure available to achieve a fair solution for those 800 people?

[Tom Brake]

I could not agree more. I gave advance notice of my remarks, so I hope that the Minister will tell us this evening what our Government are able to do to assist the British investors who have been affected by the scandal.

The developer claimed that Amendis had not supplied the water connection, but subsequently it was shown that, in fact, the developer had not paid the invoices from that water company, so the services were not supplied. The scheme was financed by the Banque Centrale Populaire, which was part-owned by the Moroccan state, who provided some guarantees but then withdrew them without the investors’ consent. A critical point is that the Moroccan Government signed an investment agreement in 2015, which stated that the development

“golf course is almost completed, and the residential component is finished”,

but that is a complete fabrication. That is why I think there is a Government connection that requires the Moroccan Government to take responsibility.

In February 2016, the project was in a derelict state. At that point, the Moroccan Government handed over the land to the development company. Given that a requirement was placed on the Moroccan Government to track the progress of the project and make sure that certain milestones were hit, I wonder why they handed over money when it was clear that there had been no activity on the project for seven years. After the developer was arrested, a Government-owned construction company was appointed to complete the project. Certain reassurances were given by the Moroccan embassy here in London that additional money—130 million dirhams—would be provided to the developer, but that money was then withdrawn.

On 26 January 2017, the developer was found guilty in a penal case and sentenced to 20 months’ imprisonment but was released before completing the full sentence in May 2017. Then, on 10 October 2017, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office raised the issue in a meeting with the Moroccan Ministry of Tourism. I hope that the Minister can say whether there have been any developments since then in terms of such contact. The most recent development is that a meeting will take place with the judge involved in the case on 30 January. The core team has asked if someone from the FCO can attend, and again it looks as though the Minister might be able to clarify whether that will be the case. I and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak want a formal UK Government representative there.

This scandal raises many issues about the Moroccan Government’s involvement and contractual responsibilities. Clearly, if nothing else, they have a moral responsibility, given the many references to their supporting this project, and they need to respond to that. There are indications that they are at least willing to engage in a dialogue, in that both I and the hon. Gentleman have been into the embassy and spoken to staff there, who are well apprised of the issue, but that does not mean that the matter is resolved. I am sure that the embassy would like it to be resolved, if for no other reason than to stop the very loud protest outside the embassy, which deafens the staff inside the building. There is some incentive, therefore, for them to resolve this.

I acknowledge that the Minister’s direct capacity or ability is restricted in this matter, but I hope that he can first confirm whether there is a role for the FCO in terms of providing advice about whether it is sensible to invest in certain countries—it provides advice, obviously, on whether a country is safe—and secondly whether the FCO will be sending a representative to help the core team and their advocates when they appear in front of the judge. Finally, as highlighted in a couple of interventions, we want reassurances from the Minister, whom I am sure will be well informed on the issue, that the UK Government will not let this drop but will take every opportunity they have to raise it, whether with the Moroccan Ministry of Tourism or the Moroccan Foreign Minister. I saw the Foreign Secretary here earlier. I thought he might be responding to the debate, so as to put lots of oomph behind it, but I am sure he will find out about this as well.

I welcome the opportunity I have had to raise this matter, and I hope that it will be appropriate if I leave my remaining time to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak so that he might make a contribution before the Minister responds.

Hamed bin Haydara

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 11th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar) is clearly a very wise man indeed. In fact, he would perhaps be called a greybeard if he had one.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement. The judgment on Hamed Bin Haydara has called for the confiscation of his goods and also direct action against the Bahá’í, motivated very clearly by a desire to repress a peaceful religious minority. I think that some of the information coming through from the oral reports from Yemeni officials would show that Iran has an influence there. Will the Minister share with the House what representations he has had on this case, apart from those this morning? What representations are the Government going to be able to make to urge the Houthi authorities to overturn this judgment? What help can he give to the prisoners in jail who need medical attention?

[Sir Alan Duncan]

We have very little direct contact with the Houthis because of the complicated nature of the Yemeni conflict. However, through all available channels—public and UN pressure, the UN Human Rights Council, collective comments within the middle east through ambassadors, and other forums—we have made every conceivable representation. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will continue to do so—perhaps, after this urgent question, even more noisily and robustly than before.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Duncan]

Very succinct, Mr Speaker! This is a wholly good news story. The BBC’s “Blue Planet” series has inspired millions of viewers, and we are putting that into practical effect. I can make it very clear to my right hon. Friend that we are working with our overseas territories to ensure that each of our marine protected areas is backed by robust legislation, effective monitoring and the very strong enforcement that he would wish to see.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

When it comes to improving global ocean conservation, third world countries want to be effective but do not have the resources to do so. What resources are being made available to those third world countries to help them carry out their job as well?

[Sir Alan Duncan]

I am not absolutely clear exactly what goes through the Department for International Development for this kind of purpose, but obviously there are international treaties and international treaty obligations. I hope that collectively the world can get together to ensure that the objectives we all share are properly put into effect.

Ukraine

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 20th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Mr Whittingdale]

I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. If we are to expect the international community, particularly the business community, to invest in Ukraine, it has to have guarantees that the system is fair, that it will secure a return on its investments, that it will not be suddenly be hit by mysterious taxes that have been invented overnight or that it will have to bribe public officials to get contracts. Those things have to be put right, and that is widely recognised.

The only other issue on which my right hon. Friend the Minister, who I know is aware of this, can help is the particular concern expressed by Ukrainians about the difficulty they experience obtaining visas to visit this country. I have just sent my right hon. Friend a letter signed by 21 Members of the Ukrainian Parliament that sets out their concern that the refusal rate for visa applications to come to the UK has risen over the last three years from 9% to 25% with no real explanation. Not only are a lot of visas refused, in cases where they have been granted they have actually been issued after the flight to bring the applicant to this country has left, requiring them to rebook at considerable expense.

The Ukrainians believe that part of the reason for that is that Ukrainian visa applications are dealt with in Warsaw. Something is clearly going wrong. I recognise that this is not the direct responsibility of my right hon. Friend, and I know that he has talked to the Ukrainian Parliament and Government about this, but I urge him to talk to his and my colleague in the Home Office who is responsible. Ukraine is worth supporting.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

For the record, does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that, during the Russian onslaught in eastern Ukraine, many Christian churches have been destroyed, Baptist pastors have gone missing, never to be seen again, and people have been displaced? When it comes to human rights, does he accept and agree that we need to see a softening of Russian attitudes towards those with religious beliefs, who have been persecuted specifically because they speak out on social issues on behalf of people and are very vocal in their areas? People are going missing and disappearing. That is wrong.

International Human Rights Day

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 20th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered International Human Rights Day and the UK’s role in promoting human rights.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I am very pleased to have been given a Westminster Hall debate this year to mark International Human Rights Day, which was on Sunday 10 December, and to discuss the UK’s role in promoting human rights, including on the international stage.

Highlighting the fundamental importance of international and universal human rights to each and every one of us in the UK and abroad, and of the UK remaining a human rights champion on the international stage, is still vital. The international human rights framework, much of which emerged out of the destruction and the depravity of the second world war, with millions killed, destruction and despair widespread and those deemed undesirable led to the gas chambers, is under considerable threat. Authoritarian regimes the world over are trampling over hard-won rights such as freedom of expression, assembly and association, the rule of law and judicial independence, the right not to be arbitrarily detained or tortured, and even the right to life itself.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the right hon. Lady for bringing this debate to Westminster Hall. Unfortunately, half an hour is not enough, but that is by the way. Does she share my share my concerns that, according to the Pew Research Centre, approximately four out of every five people on this planet live in countries where their right to freedom of religion or belief is significantly and violently restricted?

[Ann Clwyd]

Yes indeed, and I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is always about on these issues, and is very often heard in the Chamber.

Principles, processes and people are unfortunately viewed as expendable if that is justified by the needs of the ruling elite: national security, state unity, the fight against terrorism and/or the quest for greater development or prosperity. That is increasingly apparent in a growing number of countries, such as Russia, Egypt, Turkey, Bahrain, Ethiopia, Cambodia, Burma, North Korea and Venezuela. Of course, that list is not exhaustive; I could go on and on, unfortunately, as I have not even mentioned those countries being ravaged by violent conflict.

UK Victims of IRA Attacks: Gaddafi-supplied Semtex and Weapons

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 14th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to a debate on an issue that greatly affects us in Northern Ireland. I thank the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), for raising the issue and setting the scene so well, and my colleague the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), who outlined the case on behalf of his constituents.

It is important to have a Northern Ireland perspective on the matter, because the report was produced by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. I was not a member of the Committee when the report was produced; I have been on it only a short time, and am pleased to serve under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire. I make no apologies for rising to speak again on the issue. Indeed, instead of an apology I make a promise, along with the rest of my colleagues in this place—those who are not here but would have liked to attend and speak—that we will keep on raising the issue until our constituents receive some form of recognition and justice.

I am pleased to see the Minister in his place, as well as the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). The Minister knows that everyone in the House has the utmost respect for him. It goes without saying that I do. However, there are things that must be said today, and I do not want him to feel that I am in any way attacking him; I am not, but I have to make my points clearly. I want to say that before I begin, because it has never been my way to attack people. I do not do that in the House; it is not my form.

There may be some who think that we have heard it all before and do not need to hear the details of the atrocities again: we know it was terrible. However, I will repeat what was done with Libyan-sponsored Semtex and arms, to remind the House that what we are discussing is not simply statements of support, which are bad enough, but action that caused horrific deaths and injuries that have lasted until today. Many people carry and share those burdens of injury and trauma: families who are without parents, without children, and without loved ones. At present they are also, I am sad to say—with great respect to the Minister and the Government—without a Government who are determined to put oil interests aside and put the interests of justice and their people first. I hope I am wrong in saying that. I look kindly towards the Minister and want him to prove me wrong, please.

I read a summary in The Guardian that set the scene well, and will quote from it to give a wee bit of perspective on where we are, among the passionate contributions that have been made to the debate so far, and those that will follow:

“In the early 1970s and later in the 80s, Muammar Gaddafi’s regime supplied the Provisional IRA with tonnes of weapons including semtex explosive, which was made in the Czech Republic. The odourless semtex was used as a powerful booster for bombs that devastated parts of the City of London”,

as the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse mentioned,

“as well as other British cities during the latter days of the Troubles.

The Gaddafi regime also supplied more than 1,000 assault rifles to the IRA—enough to arm two infantry battalions. On top of the guns the then Libyan regime also smuggled flame-throwers, Soviet-made grenades, mines and anti-aircraft weapons to the IRA”

to take down helicopters. Those were weapons of war to murder people across the country of Northern Ireland—men, women and children.

I suppose we all watch war films, but that was not the stuff of “Rambo” or “The Expendables”. It was about the lives of people in my community, members of my family and, indeed, members of other communities across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. People’s lives have been torn to shreds, and that was facilitated by Gaddafi and his regime. Today we in this House are charged with the responsibility of making the point clearly and as strongly as possible, and of looking to the Minister for a comprehensive and helpful response.

Libyan-supplied Semtex was used in bombings that included the Harrods department store attack in 1983, the Warrington bomb in 1993 on the mainland, which has been referred to, and countless atrocities in Northern Ireland—almost too many to mention. We could do a roll-call, but it is not about that; but we need to encapsulate the issue and the strength of feeling. As we stood around cenotaphs in Northern Ireland, we thought not only of those who died in the world wars and other wars, but of the service personnel who lost their life in the troubles. Even more poignantly, this year we marked the 30th anniversary of the Enniskillen bombing, when 11 people were murdered at the cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday. That murder was carried out by way of a bomb made up of products supplied by Gaddafi. There is no argument about that; it is what the facts of the case say.

Thirty years later, while Americans who were injured or bereaved in this way have seen their country secure a form of restitution, our people who lived through some of the most horrible atrocities day in and day out, and who saw entire communities shredded to pieces, are still asking for some form of recognition. Quite clearly, our point of view has to be heard.

I have said it in this Chamber before, and I will say it again, as other right hon. Member and hon. Members have done: no amount of money can heal a broken heart, but it can help to pay the bills of those who are left behind, such as the one-parent households where there should be two parents. Money cannot walk a daughter down the aisle when her dad is not there, but it can take off some of the burden and stress of paying for the wedding, which will not be the same. Money cannot bring mothers home, but it can allow a dad to work less, so that he can do more elsewhere. My constituents deserve reparation, as do yours, Mr Gapes, and the constituents of all of us in this Chamber. The Government must do their part to provide it.

It is for that reason that I feel particularly disheartened by the response of the Government up until now; I am almost grieved to say that I feel so annoyed about this issue, as many others do. I am particularly disheartened to find that the call by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee for a reparation fund—I sit on the Committee now but did not at the time it made that call—has been summarily rejected, and that there is to be no use of the UK’s influence regarding its political or financial support to Libya as leverage to secure reparation. How frustrated are all three of us who have spoken today and those who will follow afterwards? There are people in the Gallery who are victims, or supporters of this cause, and they feel equally burdened and let down.

I constantly ask Ministers to use whatever diplomatic pressure they can to bring about changes in human rights in countries that we give financial aid to and trade with. That is part of my job as the chair of the all-party group on international freedom of religion or belief; the Minister speaks out forcefully on those issues, as we all do. I am given assurances that we use that influence in those cases, so why is this situation any different? Why are we making this point in the House today? Why is it not in the UK’s best interests to use what influence we have to get justice for our own? Are we a second-class nation, compared with the USA? I certainly hope that we are not. The USA secured a $1.5 billion compensation fund for American victims of terror attacks that were blamed on Libya, including the Lockerbie bombing, which many of us vividly remember.

Are our deaths less important than those US deaths? Do we care less for our own than the US does? Are we the poor relations to Americans and their rights? Quite clearly, the answer to that is: no, we are not, and neither should we be. We need to address this issue. We are the greatest seat of democracy in the world, and what a privilege it is to sit in this House as a Member of Parliament and to speak on behalf of our people. Why are we not able to use that influence to help our people who have been hurt by an evil man who was set on destroying British people by any means possible?

The hon. Member for South West Wiltshire gave the real thrust of what Gaddafi was about. These were attacks on our democratic process, our British way of life, and our right to stand up for freedom and democracy. That is why we speak out on behalf of the victims today.

The response of the Government to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s report is—may I say so, Mr Gapes?—insulting at best and at worst could be classified as neglectful. As I have said, it was not statements by Gaddafi that led to these atrocities; it was actions. It is not statements of sympathy by this Government that will lead to healing; it is action. With respect, it is not platitudes or words that we want; it is actions and compensation for the victims of Libyan terrorism.

The refusal of the Government to step up and move out for our people cannot be accepted. That is why we are today again talking about the Libyan state sponsorship of IRA terrorism. We demand more from our Government and from our Minister. Please give us no more words of sympathy; give us action. Stand up and use what we have to say to people, “Your—our—loss is important enough for us to take real and meaningful steps. You are as important to us as the US citizens are to their Government.”

We can understand how frustrated, angry and dismayed people are when they see what is happening. We are expressing those feelings on their behalf in a small way—not with the same personal feeling, because we were not part of those events, although some of us served in uniform so perhaps were, in a small way, part of the process in which those around us lost their lives.

Minister, here are some direct questions that I feel I must ask and that we need a response to. Taking into account the indisputable fact that the Libyans played a massive, direct, deliberate, murderous and brutal part in a campaign of murder of hundreds of people UK-wide, why is a UK reparations fund for victims not a “viable option”? What does “not a viable option” mean? Do the Government not understand the issues? Why is it not in the UK’s national interest to use political or financial support for Libya as leverage to secure compensation for victims? As the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse said, why not use the funds that are frozen in British bank accounts? If we have them, let us use them for our people and make sure that they are looked after. To whom is our responsibility? To our people, so let us have answers that grasp the importance of the issue, and the nettle.

My conclusion is simple. I say to my Government, my Prime Minister and my Minister that if we wanted to take back our sovereignty—that is why we are leaving Europe—it is because we wanted as a nation to stand on our own. What kind of a nation would we be if we did not stand up for our own? What kind of people are we when we do not look compassionately at lives decimated by evil, and do not offer more than sympathy? That is not the country that I believe we are; I believe that we are better than that, and we need to prove it. We must act in this matter in a very British way, which is supporting the rule of law and justice, standing up and speaking out for what is right, and championing the underdog, which is what many of us do in this Chamber on a regular basis.

Minister, we look to you, because you are the Minister who will respond, and I urge you to do the right thing. Provide the support; take steps to see moneys released; and send this statement to those who target our citizens for whatever reason: “Target us and we will not take it lightly, but will instead respond”—not necessarily militarily, but in a way that is financially helpful to the victims. The sun never set on our nation; that was something I learned at school, which was not yesterday. Our nation abolished slavery, championed the right to live a free life, and promotes the most basic of all human rights: the right to life. That is the nation that I am proud to be a part of—the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. All of us in this Chamber are part to be proud of it, and are of the same mindset.

Renew our pride, remind other nations exactly who we are, and let us do what we should have done years ago: get recognition and financial help for those who have been bereaved or injured by Libyan-sponsored state terrorism.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for the Middle East (Alistair Burt)]

It is a particular pleasure to serve under your chairmanship in a debate such as this, Mr Gapes, knowledgeable as you are of foreign affairs. You will know the issue extremely well, so it is good to see you in your place.

I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. I particularly thank my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) for securing the debate and, through him, all the Members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee for their continuing commitment to supporting the victims’ cause in Parliament. I thank other colleagues for their pertinent contributions today, which give plenty of food for thought.

As the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) was gracious enough to acknowledge, when we look back at the past and the opportunities that might have been missed, this is not a great chapter for any Government, but it is important to remember that these events were not brought about by the British Government; the report refers to a period of time when Gaddafi was supplying weaponry to the IRA. I gently say to my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) that it was not the Libyan people taking action against the people of Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom. It was Gaddafi following his own determination and his political beliefs at the time, and that makes it difficult when we are talking about retrospective balance between those who were victims of Gaddafi in Libya and those who were victims of Gaddafi here. I visited Abu Salim jail. I have seen the place where Gaddafi machine-gunned about 1,200 people in an act of revenge for some attack on his regime. Part of the instinct behind the communal fund, which we will come on to, is to recognise that the people in both places suffered under that man. That is why attempting to find a way to recognise that in a manner that benefits all victims has been so important.

[Jim Shannon]

All Members who made a contribution mentioned the conversation that the United States Government have had. They made a very clear distinction. Why can we not make the same distinction? I respect the Minister greatly, and he knows that, but I have to speak on behalf of my constituents in Northern Ireland. The US Government have done it. Why do we not do the same?

[Alistair Burt]

Perhaps I can come on to the United States situation a bit later. Distinctions between types of victims are difficult, and I will come on to that a little later on. First, let me put something on the record in relation to our current policy. I recognise the force of today’s debate, of the conversations that the Foreign Secretary has had in my presence, and of the discussions that I have had as well. This is a difficult area of policy, and it may not be finally settled.

I would like to take the opportunity once again to express on behalf of the Government sincere condolences to all those who have suffered as a result of the horrific attacks carried out by the IRA, and to all victims of the troubles. The Government want a just solution for all victims of Gaddafi-sponsored IRA terrorism, and we will continue to do all we can to make progress on that important but difficult agenda. The Government have raised the plight of victims of Gaddafi-sponsored IRA terrorism with the Libyan authorities at the highest level. The Foreign Secretary raised their cases with Prime Minister Sarraj during both of his visits to Tripoli, most recently in August this year. I intend to follow up on those conversations when I next travel to Libya.

Between 2010 and 2013, when I travelled to Libya I always raised the issue of compensation because it was a live issue back then. I raised it with either the then Attorney General or the then Solicitor General in Scotland—I cannot remember which—whom I got to know in relation to this matter. It was always on the agenda in the period of time after the fall of Gaddafi. The Libyan Government were obviously in a state of flux at that time, which of course has continued, hampering all our efforts, but it was important to put the claims on the record right the way through, and I sought to do so.

The Foreign Secretary and I welcomed our constructive recent discussions with parliamentarians, and I have recently met with victims groups to discuss their thoughts and concerns face to face. I very much hope that we can continue to engage openly and frankly, and I am sure that we will. That will give us the best possible chance of securing justice for the victims of these terrible attacks.

Clearly, the Libyan Government have a responsibility to deal with the legacy at the heart of the Gaddafi regime, as part of a broader process of national and international reconciliation and justice. The UK Government continue to impress upon the Libyan authorities the impact of Gaddafi’s support for the IRA, and we emphasise the importance we attach to responding to victims’ campaigns. We continue to judge, however, that engaging constructively with the Libyan Government remains the best way to make progress. As our response to the Select Committee report demonstrated, we maintain the long-standing policy of previous UK Governments not to espouse victims’ claims.

Hon. Members who took part in the recent meeting with the Foreign Secretary will be aware that that issue was discussed in some depth. They will also be aware that the Foreign Secretary committed the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to being more visible in efforts to support the victims’ campaigns and to ensuring that the issue remains a priority in our discussions with the Libyan Government. The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) spoke about how that more visible attitude might be demonstrated. I am going back to Libya, for the first time in some years, early in the new year. We are actively seeking to explore the possibility of a meeting between the Libyan Minister of Justice and victims groups; we have recently written to the Minister about that. The meeting might take place in Libya, but that could be difficult, so it could be held in Tunisia or some other place. We are actively pursuing that idea as a way of doing something new and adding something new to the situation.

Questions were raised about whether we have abandoned the idea of a fund to compensate individual victims. We have carefully considered that option, but continue to believe that individual claims are best negotiated directly between victims and the Libyan authorities. We will continue to support victims to help to facilitate that, and we will raise their cases with the Libyan authorities at every opportunity. Even if the Libyans were at some point in the future to put aside money for the purposes of compensating UK victims, we believe that administering such a fund would be extremely difficult. There is currently no clear definition of a victim of IRA terrorism sponsored by Gaddafi as opposed to a victim of terrorism more generally.

Hon. Members who were present at the recent meeting with the Foreign Secretary will be aware that that issue was discussed at length. My impression is that at the end of the meeting we believed that, given the difficulties of drawing distinctions between different types of victims, the best kind of support would be a communal fund, focusing on community support, rehabilitation and reconciliation, that was available to all victims. It would not be confined to Northern Ireland, to respond to the concerns of the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse. It has not been drawn up in any way yet, but it would attempt to recognise the difficulty of separating one victim of the troubles from another, and to bring people together. Giving specific help to specific people who have been damaged, as the hon. Member for Strangford clearly described, would be an important part of it, so he would be providing something for his constituents, but in a communal fund that would be accessible to more people, rather than just through individual compensation.

[Alistair Burt]

Let me respond as best I can to those two comments. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about the meeting, but my sense is that there would be sufficient victims and victims’ representatives who would be prepared to take part in such a meeting. It would not be an unmoderated meeting and, of course, I would expect us to be there in some form, whether through embassy officials locally or senior officers from here; in those circumstances, there would probably also be a Minister. I do not think it would be appropriate to ask a Minister from another state, unconnected with all this, to deal with the issue without one of our Ministers being prepared to support those who had come from the United Kingdom. I am sure that we could handle that, but I accept his point that for some people such a meeting would be too difficult and not possible.

In relation to the hon. Gentleman’s other point, there is no suggestion that because the fund has not yet been created or put together, it would be confined to one place rather than another. If the point is to find something that will benefit victims wherever they have been, it must of course apply to mainland UK as well as Northern Ireland. I do not think that those in other countries have had to make an individual distinction between a victim of Gaddafi-sponsored terrorism and a victim of a terrorist atrocity from another source. That is something that we find difficult and, as we have discussed, we all understand those difficulties.

[Jim Shannon]

To follow on from the point made by the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), it is quite clear to me, and I suspect to everyone in the Chamber, that if someone was blown up by Semtex, or there were an explosion in which Semtex were used, it was Gaddafi-inspired and sponsored terrorism. If they were shot with a bullet from an AK47, that was Gaddafi-sponsored terrorism. If they were shot by a self-loading rifle, an SA80 or something different, that certainly was not Gaddafi-sponsored terrorism. If we want a factual, historical way of collating what has taken place, I suggest that the weapon or bomb used is an indication of where it came from and its intention. It is therefore easy to diagnose. Forgive me, but I see it very simply. If someone was blown up with Semtex in London or shot by an AK47 rifle in London or anywhere else, that is Gaddafi-sponsored terrorism.

[Alistair Burt]

I understand the hon. Gentleman completely. It is not difficult to make a distinction based on cause of death, but is he saying that there would be a different system of compensation, and that someone who lost their life in circumstances identifiably traced to Gaddafi would have access to one fund, but those who died in other circumstances would not? That is what successive Governments have found difficult, because the impact of the loss of life due to a terrorist incident is the same, whatever the cause was. It would be difficult to have a fund that distinguished victims and gave some victims and their families access to something that others are denied.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

It is patently unfair that some victims may not get compensation and others would. The distinction we are drawing, in the absence of a UK fund to compensate victims of terrorism per se, is that the Libyans have paid other Governments in other countries money to compensate their victims. Apparently, we have not been making the same efforts to get Libyan compensation for our victims. If we can get that for the victims who can be identified, let us get them compensation. The British Government ought to be looking after the other victims of terrorism, as I hope they do, from whichever source the terrorism outrage comes.

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

[Alistair Burt]

I am happy to take the other intervention if it is on the same topic.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) has clearly hit the nail on the head. The United States Government made the distinction. There is a way of making the distinction. They did it and have shown us how to do it, and I suggest that we do the same. They have done it, and so can we.

[Alistair Burt]

Of course, in the particular case of the Lockerbie victims, the UK Government intervened directly to secure compensation. However, as we have discussed, individual compensation is being pursued through private claims, and we have sought to facilitate that work through our contacts and everything we have done in relation to that. We still believe that that is the most appropriate thing to do, and that is why we deal directly with the Libyan authorities. We have approached individual compensation differently. The allocation of the compensation fund illustrates the difficulty of individual compensation, but of course if such claims are successful, that deals with that issue. However, as successive Governments have done, we have supported the individual pursuit of claims rather than doing on it on a Government basis. That is different from those who have chosen to do it another way—that is quite right. That is the process we have chosen, and that is the process we are continuing to support.