Oral Answers to Questions

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Wednesday 26th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Douglas McAllister (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab)]

10. What recent discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Executive on improving public services.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

I regularly meet Northern Ireland Ministers to discuss the shared challenges we face in improving public services, and the Government will do everything we can to help. Last week, I met the new Finance Minister, and we both expect to be in a position soon to announce progress on funding to help with the transformation of public services.

[Robin Swann]

The Northern Ireland Executive were meant to agree their programme for Government today, but apparently the meeting was cancelled at the last minute. The Secretary of State refers to the transformation fund; £245 million was allocated to it over a year ago, but it remains unspent. The transformation board that is meant to be managing that fund is still interim. With every party in Northern Ireland clamouring for transformation, and the Secretary of State and his ministerial team calling for transformation of public services, will the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland intervene with the Executive, and tell them to get on with it?

[Hilary Benn]

I hope very much that the programme for Government will be agreed as soon as possible; it is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive, and I look forward to reading it. A number of bids were submitted for transformation funding. They have been carefully looked at by the interim board and, as I indicated a moment ago, I look forward, together with the Finance Minister, to announcing the results of that work soon.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Last December, the Royal College of Nursing Northern Ireland revealed that there is a severe shortage of nursing staff in the north—there are almost 2,000 vacancies in the sector—as well as concerns about retention. What steps is the Northern Ireland Office taking to support the Executive in providing safe levels of staffing in Northern Ireland, including by tackling staffing pressures, low pay and unacceptable working conditions?

[Hilary Benn]

I share the concern that my hon. Friend expresses about the number of vacancies. The single most important thing that the Government have done is allocate for next year a record sum to the Northern Ireland Executive of £18.2 billion, which is an increase of £1.5 billion. The resources are there, and it is for the Northern Ireland Executive to decide how they will use them.

[Deirdre Costigan]

I welcome what the Secretary of State has said about public service reform being a shared challenge. Does he agree with me that it is in the interests of patients, both in Northern Ireland and in England, to share knowledge of what works, and best practice?

[Hilary Benn]

I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. Indeed, I discussed that with Mike Nesbitt, the Health Minister, when I met him recently. I asked him what support and help we can give him, but we can all learn from each other across the United Kingdom.

[Chris Evans]

When the Secretary of State has his discussions with the Executive, will he look to the example of Wales and its social partnership model? Government, public sector workers and unions are working collaboratively and are in positive discussions to bring about real change and harmony in the delivery of public services.

[Hilary Benn]

I have not looked specifically at the social partnership model in Wales to which he refers, but I look forward to learning more about it; it sounds very interesting. As I have indicated, we have a lot to learn from each other.

[Douglas McAllister]

The proactive approach that the Secretary of State has set out is an important step change from the approach taken by the previous Government. Does he agree that stabilising and transforming the health service in Northern Ireland is now the priority?

[Hilary Benn]

It certainly is. One has only to look at the waiting list figures in Northern Ireland: some 52% of those waiting for a first consultant’s appointment wait for more than a year; the figure in England is 4%. The First Minister recently described the state of the health service in Northern Ireland as “diabolical”. I am absolutely clear that Ministers and the Executive understand that, and I very much support the programme that the new Health Minister is seeking to put in place to deal with that.

[Sir Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

Would the Secretary of State agree that the appointment of Mike Farrar as chief executive and head of the Northern Ireland health service—an external appointment—is a positive move, and a good example of the Executive getting on with it, despite comments that have been made?

[Hilary Benn]

I do agree. He has great expertise and knowledge, and I am sure that it will be used for the benefit of people in Northern Ireland, particularly patients waiting for appointments.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

My daughter lives in Donegal. When her two little boys were born, she had the choice of them being born in Derry or Sligo—on either side of the border. The Republic of Ireland has introduced an initiative called shared island. That is not a united Ireland, but it works in improving services. Will the Government look at its success, and consider how Scotland might work in a similar way to Northern Ireland, for the benefit of services?

[Hilary Benn]

As I understand it, there is a long-established arrangement under which people can move from one side of the border to the other to seek care, particularly in Donegal and Derry/Londonderry. Things would be slightly different in Scotland, for physical reasons, but once again, I am sure that all opportunities that can be taken to help people get the care they need would be welcomed.

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that it has been a year since the Executive was finally re-established. In that time, they have still been unable to agree a programme for Government. This morning, we learned that today’s meeting to agree it has been moved again. Does he agree that, for the sake of the people of Northern Ireland, it is time they got on with it?

[Hilary Benn]

As I indicated a moment ago, I look forward to the Executive adopting a programme for Government. I am aware of what happened earlier today; I am confident that another meeting will be arranged, and I look forward to seeing the programme adopted.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)]

The Government’s decision to repeal the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 will mean reopening many inquests and civil cases. Many of those cases will impact on the police. Does the Secretary of State accept that that will mean a significant cost to the Police Service of Northern Ireland?

[Hilary Benn]

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, the legacy legislation that the previous Government passed has been found to be flawed and unlawful in a number of respects, and it falls to this Government to clean up the mess that the last Government left. I am in the process of consultation with many parties. I have already indicated to the House the proposals that I put forward in the remedial order, and have said that I propose bringing legislation before the House when parliamentary time allows. It is important that people are able to pursue civil cases, and the ban on them by the last Government has been found to be unlawful. Why should people in Northern Ireland not be entitled to an inquest?

[Alex Burghart]

My question was about the liability that the Police Service of Northern Ireland might be under following the Secretary of State’s decision. Police numbers in Northern Ireland are at their lowest ever. Two weeks ago, Policy Exchange estimated that the cost to the PSNI of the repeal of the legacy Act might well stretch to hundreds of millions of pounds. If that is the case, will the Government step in to support the PSNI, or are they content to see a reduction in frontline policing and national security?

[Hilary Benn]

The Government have provided additional funding to the PSNI in the autumn statement through the additional security fund. I have read the Policy Exchange report, and it contains a lot of speculation about numbers. The fact remains that the legislation supported by the Government, of which the hon. Gentleman was part, has not worked; it was flawed and found to be unlawful. I am afraid that the Opposition will have to recognise that at some point, and it needs to be fixed.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[Dr Al Pinkerton (Surrey Heath) (LD)]

Pharmacies in Northern Ireland are in a declared state of crisis. Pharmacists are having to dip into their savings just to stay afloat, and they are cutting staff numbers and opening hours. The National Pharmacy Association, which represents 6,500 community pharmacies, has warned that its members may have to further cut opening hours, halt home deliveries and reduce local support services, and that warning is amplified in Northern Ireland. What conversations has the Secretary of State had with the Northern Ireland Executive to safeguard access to crucial pharmacy services across rural and urban regions? Does he agree that an urgent impact assessment on pharmacy underfunding is required to highlight the scale of the crisis for community pharmacies, which provide vital-to-life services?

[Hilary Benn]

That issue did not figure in the discussions I had recently with the NI Health Minister, but I have no doubt that it will do so in the future, and I will take the matter up.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Many ministerial decisions are important in getting public services delivered, but so too is back-up by the civil service. There is some concern about the level of expertise in the civil service in Northern Ireland. In the inquiry into the renewable heat incentive, the permanent secretary admitted that the civil service was not able to give timely advice to Ministers, and had not given accurate advice. What can the Secretary of State do to ensure that the gap that there appears to be in expertise in the civil service—because the Northern Ireland civil service is not integrated into the UK civil service—can be filled?

[Hilary Benn]

I have met many civil servants who are doing a very good job and are very committed to their work, but the Northern Ireland civil service is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and the Ministers in the Departments—it is not my responsibility to deal with.

[Sammy Wilson]

Many projects that are designed to improve public services are being held up in the courts in Northern Ireland because of procurement, planning and the decision process. The latest ruse being used to hold up projects is the claim that they do not comply with the Government’s net zero policies and will lead to an increase in carbon dioxide emissions. One of the projects that is being held up is the important A5 road in the west of Northern Ireland. Does the Secretary of State agree that while we have statutory limits on CO₂ emissions, we will always be vulnerable to major infrastructure projects being held up in the courts?

[Hilary Benn]

I do not accept that, because getting to a net zero world is really important for the future of humankind, and the Government have commitments that it is very important to fulfil. As for delays in the planning system and the way in which the courts operate in Northern Ireland, once again, those are matters for the Executive.

[Michael Wheeler (Worsley and Eccles) (Lab)]

2. What assessment he has made of the potential implications for his policies of the recommendations in the Independent Reporting Commission's seventh annual report.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

The IRC’s report highlights progress, but reminds us that there is still much to do to tackle paramilitarism and the harm it causes. Following discussion with the Irish Government, it has been agreed to support a short, independent scoping exercise to assess whether there is merit in a formal process to bring about paramilitary group disbandment, as the IRC has suggested, and whether there would be public support for such a process.

[Michael Wheeler]

Having spent lots of time with family in Northern Ireland since I was a small child, I have seen the progress made over the years and know what a difference it has made on the ground. I welcome this Government’s commitment to help secure that progress and tackle the scourge of paramilitarism. Does the Secretary of State share my view that making further progress will require a range of measures, and that the Executive’s programme on paramilitarism, criminality and organised crime is a crucial part of that?

[Hilary Benn]

I do indeed agree with my hon. Friend. That programme is doing very good work, and of course the UK Government are funding it together with the Executive. I also agree that a wide range of approaches needs to be taken, including continuing to use the full force of the law to deal with paramilitary criminality.

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

After decades of illegal paramilitary organisations taking successive Governments for a ride over transition and pocketing millions of pounds along the way, the Secretary of State now wants to appoint a special envoy—a nursemaid to paramilitaries. When will this pandering come to an end, and is the Secretary of State going to accept the IRC’s grotesque proposal of moving to de-proscription, under which organisations that murdered thousands of people would ultimately be made legal? Can he at least rule that out?

On a happier note, will the Secretary of State join me in welcoming today’s announcement by the Irish Football Association and the Galgorm resort that there will be a new training facility par excellence for Northern Ireland football teams?

[Hilary Benn]

I am very happy to join in what appears to be the general consensus of welcome for the IFA’s announcement, a proposal that I discussed when I met the IFA during my time as shadow Secretary of State.

On the substantive issue that the hon. and learned Gentleman has raised, the fact is that 26 years later, people say that the paramilitary organisations should have left the stage. They are still here, despite the progress that has been made, and are still causing harm to communities. The IRC’s proposal—which I recognise is not supported by everybody—is to inquire whether there are some paramilitary organisations that do actually want to leave the stage, and whether there is merit in having a process that ensures that. However, what I announced yesterday is not a process; it is a scoping study to find out whether it is worth having one or not, which I think is the right thing to do.

[Claire Hanna (Belfast South and Mid Down) (SDLP)]

After all these years, people are bewildered that we are still talking about transitioning paramilitary groups, which have continued to recruit, to grip and to poison communities and current-day politics in Northern Ireland. Will the Minister commit to ensuring that we learn from all the things that have not gone right, and all the previous attempts at transition? Will he commit to ensuring that there is no payday for former paramilitaries, that we take a serious criminal justice approach, and that there are preconditions on such things as emblems and financial assets? Does he agree that that makes it even more important that we get the infrastructure right on the legacy of the troubles, and move towards getting back on track as a serious rule-of-law society?

[Hilary Benn]

For the avoidance of doubt, there is no question of paying anybody any money to disband. There is no question of doing that at all. As I indicated a moment ago, for all the efforts that have been made—there is much to learn from what has worked—the fact remains, as the Independent Reporting Commission report makes clear, that many communities in Northern Ireland continue to suffer real harm because of paramilitary activities. What is the proof that those who say they are prepared to disband are doing so? The proof will be: do they end recruitment, paramilitary-style assaults, intimidation, child criminal and sexual exploitation and violence against women and girls? That is what people are experiencing today in Northern Ireland.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I want all paramilitaries off our streets for good, and I also want to see justice done for their victims. That is why I cannot quite understand why the Dublin Government are closing their eyes to the 2021 Horner judgment, which recommended inquiries in the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland. The family hearings in Omagh have brought the horror of that day to a new generation. Will the Secretary of State use his influence to call on Dublin to give the Omagh families the public inquiry they deserve and want so, so much?

[Hilary Benn]

I recognise, not least because of the commemorative hearings that have been taking place in the inquiry, that all the pain, suffering, horror and tragedy of that day have been brought to life again for the families who live with that every single day of the week. I welcome the fact that the Irish Government are committed to co-operating with the Omagh inquiry. I look forward to the signing of the memorandum of understanding. It is for the Irish Government to decide what inquiries they wish to establish in relation to events in the Republic.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

5. Whether he has had recent discussions with horticultural suppliers in Great Britain on the supply of goods to consumers in Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)]

11. What steps he plans to take to replace the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

The approach to legacy taken by the last Government was wrong. It caused immense pain to victims and survivors, and in many respects has been found to be unlawful. In December I laid a proposal for a draft remedial order to address the human rights deficiencies in the Act that had been identified by the courts, and when parliamentary time allows, I will introduce primary legislation to reinstate legacy inquests halted by the Act and to reform and strengthen the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Why did the Secretary of State abandon the appeal in Dillon and Ors?

[Hilary Benn]

Because sections 46 and 47 of the Act were found to be unlawful, and, as the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, the case that gave rise to the attempt to deal with the problem through those sections that have now been found to be unlawful arose from a Supreme Court judgment in 2020. For two and a bit years, the last Government were unable to find a solution.

[Mr Mohindra]

Notwithstanding the Secretary of State’s response, may I ask why this Labour Government are continuing to undermine the tough action taken by the Conservative Government on individuals who have acted against our democracy and society, such as Gerry Adams, by considering repealing the Act, giving Adams and others the possibility of a six-figure payout?

[Hilary Benn]

As I said during the last Northern Ireland questions, no one wants to see that happen. We are currently working to find a lawful way of dealing with the problems that were created by the way in which the original interim custody orders were signed in 1972 and, I think, 1973. In 2020, the Supreme Court found that orders that had not been signed and considered by the then Secretary of State were not lawful.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield Heeley) (Lab)]

In 2019, Boris Johnson commissioned the Shawcross report on Libyan-sponsored IRA terrorism. United States citizens have received compensation from the Libyan Government for attacks on British soil, but UK citizens never have. Will the Secretary of State work with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office to ensure that the report is published?

[Hilary Benn]

The whole House will have profound sympathy for all the victims of Gaddafi-sponsored IRA terrorism, and all the victims of the troubles. The Shawcross report was commissioned by the last Government as an internal report, and decisions on the report and its future are currently under review by the FCDO.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Mike Wood (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire) (Con)]

People throughout the United Kingdom will be disgusted if former terrorists such as Gerry Adams receive compensation from the taxpayer because of Labour’s decision to repeal the legacy Act without putting something in its place. Will the Secretary of State finally commit himself to legislating immediately to prevent that from happening?

[Hilary Benn]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I gave a moment ago.

The Prime Minister was asked—