Wales Bill

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Paul Flynn]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. In my book, which begins with a dramatis personae, I awarded Welsh politicians a number of pompoms for being poodle-ish or flames for being dragon-like. I think he emerged with no pompoms and five flames, which was the top award. His point is absolutely right.

During the pre-legislative scrutiny, it became clear that the question of the jurisdiction was a fundamental one that had to be addressed in the Bill. As the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnyddp said, the Plaid Cymru amendment adopts the approach in the Welsh Government’s alternative Bill. That is fine—we agree with that—but we are proposing a compromise that would address the issue in a more consensual way. That is the spirit in which we approach consideration of the Bill. In response to the intervention from the Secretary of State, I must say that I welcome the concept of working with the Welsh Assembly. I know that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee of the Welsh Assembly will be meeting throughout August to consider the Bill under our former colleague Huw Irranca-Davies. I am sure that it will have a great deal to contribute, and I hope that its suggestions will meet with an open door.

There is common ground among legal and constitutional experts that the current arrangements are not sustainable. The challenges can only grow as the Welsh statute book develops further in the fifth Assembly term—“the Welsh statute book” has a nice ring to it. We have not yet risen to the heights of cyfraith Hywel Dda and the days in the 10th century when Wales led Europe with progressive legislation. There was a law that said if a starving person had gone to three villages without being fed, he or she was entitled to steal without risk of prosecution. They had wonderful rules on the rights of women that were far in advance of anywhere else and they had practically no capital punishment. Eight hundred years later, England had 220 crimes for which people could be punished with death, including stealing from a rabbit warren and cutting down a tree. So we are building on the shoulders of the giants of the 10th century and Hywel Dda. We are a long way from it, but this is another step towards that progress.

The joint jurisdiction was based on the premise that there was a common body of law across England and Wales with a single set of administrative arrangements. That premise worked for the centuries following the Acts of Union but is now out of date. In essence, that premise is inconsistent with legislative devolution; it is simply impossible to argue for retention of the joint jurisdiction when the criminal and private law in England and Wales will increasingly diverge as a result of Assembly legislation. The starting point is that there must be robust joint arrangements between the Lord Chancellor and the Welsh Ministers to work through the issues and identify solutions, and the UK Government’s proposed official working group might add some value. In his intervention, the Secretary of State said that an invitation had been sent to the Welsh Government. I do not know about that, but we would like to see that joint working. It is certainly the desire of the Welsh Government.

Our amendments would achieve three things. First, there would be a duty on the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers to keep the operation of the justice system under review, including the jurisdiction question. Secondly, they would be able to appoint an expert panel to advise them, which could be an invaluable source of legal expertise to focus on the practical issues. Thirdly, the work would have to be transparent and sustained, with an annual report laid before the National Assembly and Parliament.

The Secretary of State, like his predecessor, wants the Bill to offer a lasting settlement, and so do we, but that will not happen unless they put forward a credible and serious process for reforming the joint jurisdiction. There is a major gap in the Bill as it stands. Amendment 7 is proposed as a constructive solution that deserves cross-party support and we hope to press it to a Division.

Clause 2 provides statutory underpinning for the Sewel convention. Under our constitution, both Parliament and the Assembly can legislate for Wales on devolved matters, so it is important that there be a clear understanding between the two legislatures as to which will be the principal legislature on these matters. The convention normally resolves that issue in favour of the Assembly. Amendments 23 and 24 address that issue further. The convention also requires that if Parliament proposes to amend the legislative competence of the Assembly, that too should require the Assembly’s formal consent.

To be fair to the UK Government, they have always acknowledged that the Bill will require the Assembly’s consent if it is to proceed to Royal Assent. This is a matter not of controversy but of common sense and consensus between the parties. This aspect of the convention, however, is only set out in rather obscure terms in a devolution guidance note for civil servants. As drafted, clause 2 makes no reference to this aspect of the convention at all, so it is an incomplete statement of the real position. Clarity would be appreciated.

Amendment 4 is designed to fill that gap. It would provide a comprehensive statement of the circumstances when Assembly consent is required for parliamentary legislation. In particular, it would make it clear in the Bill that Assembly consent is required when a parliamentary Bill proposes changes to the Assembly’s legislative competence. I note that amendment 25 is broadly to the same effect. This is an important element in the Welsh devolution settlement, so clarity is required; it should not depend on what is written in devolution guidance note. I urge the Government to accept these reasonable and constructive amendments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

I join hon. Members in welcoming the hon. Members for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) to their places on the Front Bench. I fear that I have followed the hon. Gentleman’s political career for more than 40 years, which makes me feel very old. When he was the candidate in Denbigh during the 1974 general election, my father was the election agent for Ieuan Wyn Jones, who stood for Plaid Cymru. The hon. Gentleman clearly made a huge impression on my father, who followed his career avidly, but I am surprised that as a resident of Llansannan he did not appreciate the beauty and importance of the agricultural community in the way that he perhaps should have. When my wife had a bookshop, we recommended “Dragons led by Poodles” to many of our customers. It was one of our bestsellers in the year in question, so he undoubtedly contributed to my coffers then.

On behalf of myself and the Secretary of State, may I also thank the hon. Members for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) and for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) for their constructive engagement on the Bill prior to the change of guard on the Opposition Front Bench? The Bill has been brought forward in a measured way, and we have attempted at all times to have a constructive engagement with all Opposition parties. The constructive engagement we had with the hon. Members for Llanelli and for Clwyd South was particularly appreciated.

I need to go through the amendments in some detail to provide reassurance where necessary and to explain the Government’s position on them. Let me deal first with amendment 17, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts). This is clearly an attempt to change the place where new part 2A is inserted into the Government of Wales Act 2006. The new part inserted by clause 1 enshrines the permanence of the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government and recognises the body of Welsh law. Amendment 8, which was tabled by the Opposition, would change the title of new part 2A, making it broader in scope. Amendments 17 and 8 are consequential amendments, so I shall explain the Government’s position on them when I speak to other amendments.

Amendments 18 to 22, tabled by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, are designed to insert into the Government of Wales Act 2006 separate statements on the permanence of the National Assembly for Wales and of the Welsh Government. The amendments rightly recognise the importance of new part 2A in confirming without any doubt in law what is widely understood—that the National Assembly and the Welsh Government are a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) and his work as Chairman of the Welsh Select Committee. I pay tribute, too, to his speech in which he highlighted the permanence of the Welsh Assembly in the UK’s constitutional arrangements. I accept his argument that a majority is a majority in a democratic vote. My mother-in-law argued on Sunday that we should try to avoid the result of the EU referendum, highlighting the fact that it was a very small majority on a very small turnout, whereupon I said to her that she was of the view that the 50.3% of the people of Wales who voted for the establishment of the Welsh Assembly should be respected. I stood by the democratic principle that a majority is a majority, but it was good to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth being so clear in his view that the Assembly is part and parcel of the UK’s constitutional arrangements.

It is fair to say that a great deal of consideration has been given to the content of this clause and its place in the 2006 Act, not only in the context of the draft Wales Bill, published last October, but in terms of the read-across from the Scotland Act 2016. As in the context of Scotland, I am keen to see this commitment expressed in a single clause to reflect the fact that the Assembly and the Welsh Government belong together as a part of the UK’s constitutional arrangements. I would, however, like to give further consideration to the most appropriate place to insert new section 92A in the Government of Wales Act 2006.

I shall deal next with amendments 5, 7, 9 and 10, which amend new clause 92B on the recognition of Welsh law. In its second report, published in March 2014, the Silk commission recommended that there

“should be further administrative devolution in the court system”,

and it specifically provided for devolution in respect of the various divisions of the High Court, which should sit in Wales on a regular basis to hear cases—other than highly specialist cases—that arise in Wales. The commission stated that a High Court office should be established in Wales to co-ordinate High Court sittings in Wales; that the divisions of the Court of Appeal should continue to sit in Wales on a regular basis to hear cases that arise in Wales; and that High Court and Court of Appeal judges should be allocated to sit in Wales only if they satisfy the Lord Chief Justice that they understand the distinct requirements of Wales.

I am pleased to be able to state clearly from the Dispatch Box that many of the recommendations relating to administrative devolution in fact reflect the current position in Wales: the senior courts already sit in Wales; the administration of Welsh courts is overseen by Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service Wales; and court sittings are co-ordinated locally.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

There has, of course, been a material change in conditions, following the events of the last few weeks and the EU referendum. From our perspective, we just want to get the Bill on the statute book, so that we can move on to the next big debate about the future of our country. Is the Minister seriously saying from the Dispatch Box today, after the events of the last few weeks, with Scottish independence imminent in the next few years and with Irish unification never being closer since Lloyd George decided to split that country in two, that this Bill will hold Wales together for the next generation?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is a passionate speaker and a strong advocate for his position. In a debate in Westminster Hall this morning, however, I warned of the dangers of creating history as we want to believe it to happen. I am not as yet convinced that there is enough evidence to suggest that Scotland is imminently about to leave the United Kingdom—[Interruption.] I am not convinced. There was a referendum two years ago that provided a fairly clear result. I think it would therefore be inappropriate to legislate on the basis of the wish list of the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)—much as I enjoy that wish list and the passion with which it is articulated.

The Government are fully committed to maintaining the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. It has served Wales very well. It is also our firm view that it is the most effective, efficient and consistent way to deliver justice. The issues raised by the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) highlighted some of the complexities that would be created if we moved away from that single jurisdiction at this point in time. The vast majority of law is not devolved, so there is no justification for a separate jurisdiction that would create significant upheaval and huge costs. It is worth highlighting that cost issues cannot be swept under the carpet. There would be a cost implication with very little benefit. I wonder whether Plaid Cymru Members have carried out a cost-benefit assessment to weigh up the benefits and the costs that would be incurred.

Amendment 5 envisages separate legal and court jurisdictions, administered by a common judiciary and court staff. It is designed to provide clarity, but I am not sure that it would. I think it would create more confusion, having the opposite effect—a point made by the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan). The same people would be charged with administering two separate legal regimes where there is currently a commonality of law and procedure. This would have downstream consequences and it would impact on how the legal system works. It is difficult to justify such an impact on the basis of the current body of Welsh law.

We have heard the argument that the situation in Scotland and Northern Ireland is simpler because they have separate legal jurisdictions. I expected to hear that argument, but it ignores the historical reality that there has been—there always has been for that matter—a separate Scottish legal jurisdiction. I have engaged previously with the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr on the laws of Hywel Dda, who is rightly remembered for the legal system he put in place.

[David T. C. Davies]

Does the Minister also accept that Hywel Dda was very well known for the importance he placed on working with the English Government at the time, particularly with Edward the Elder and Athelstan? Is there not a great lesson for all of us here in terms of co-operation with the Welsh Assembly?

[Guto Bebb]

I appreciate that there are quite a few experts on Hywel Dda in this place. It is certainly the case that he took a co-operative approach. As I said previously in a debate with the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, Hywel Dda was perhaps very good in some respects, but he allowed the murder of his brother-in-law for his own personal gain in the kingdom. So perhaps he was not perfect.

Let me return to the serious issue of the separate legal entity. I think that, for all the talk of Hywel Dda, it would be a mistake to ignore the historical context. We are where we are. We legislate not in terms of what we would like to see, but in terms of what is practical and what is right at this point in time, and I think that the Bill has struck the right balance in that respect.

We recognise the validity of some of the points that were raised during pre-legislative scrutiny. Wales has a distinctive legal identity. It has two legislatures, and a growing body of law made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers. The Bill recognises that, and there is clearly a need to ensure that it does so in the context of maintaining the single jurisdiction of England and Wales. Our position is clear: we are recognising reality in the context of a system that currently works very well for Wales and the United Kingdom.

Amendments 7 and 9 call for the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers to keep under review the functioning of the justice system in relation to Wales, including the question of whether the single legal jurisdiction should be separated into a jurisdiction for Wales and a jurisdiction for England. The case for that was argued by the hon. Members for Torfaen and for Newport West.

This is an important issue, and it should be considered carefully. The St David’s day process considered the position for and against devolving justice, and ultimately found no consensus in favour of implementing the Silk commission’s recommendation. As I have said, the Government firmly believe that the most effective, efficient and consistent way to administer justice is under a single legal jurisdiction.

Despite the devolution of powers to Wales, under this Bill and the Government of Wales Acts before it, and despite the increasing amount of legislation made by the Assembly, the vast majority of laws apply equally across England and Wales, and will continue to do so. The Government therefore pledged to continue to reserve justice and policing in their election manifesto, as I mentioned earlier. However, I agree with the principle that the functioning of the justice system must be kept under review, especially given the continuing divergence in law to which I have referred.

It is for that very reason that my right hon. Friends the Justice Secretary and the Secretary of State for Wales have established a working group to consider the administrative changes needed to meet the administrative and operational demands of diverging legislation in a Welsh context. The group will represent the key areas affected by the changing legislative Welsh landscape, and will consider a range of circumstances affecting the operation of justice in Wales. I can tell the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who raised the point in his speech, that the Welsh Government have been invited to be represented on the group, but the invitation was issued to officials in that Government, so there should be no condemnation of any political forces—any Ministers—in the Assembly. We expect a positive response to the invitation.

[Mr Mark Williams]

Will the Minister clarify—I am sure that he is on the verge of doing so—the time frame for the joint working group? I understood that it would conclude its work in the autumn. The amendment proposes a real review over a lengthier period as the divergence between Welsh and English legislation becomes a reality.

[Guto Bebb]

It is currently envisaged that the group will report in the autumn, and, as things stand, that is its aim. I hope that that satisfies the hon. Gentleman, at least in terms of clarity.

It is important to understand what the group will and will not do. It will consider the administrative and operational implications of a shared but single legal jurisdiction, but it will not discuss broader constitutional questions such as whether there should be a separate jurisdiction. The Government’s view is clear: the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales is the most effective, efficient and consistent way to deliver justice. I hope that provides the clarity for which Members have been asking.

Amendment 10 seeks to omit subsection (2) of the proposed new section 92B of the Government of Wales Act. Subsection (2) recognises that a body of Welsh law made by the Assembly and by Welsh Ministers forms part of the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales, while giving due regard to the boundaries of competence set out in the Bill. It is important for the Assembly to have full and effective powers to enforce its legislation on devolved matters, and in order to achieve that, a growing body of distinct law will necessarily continue to be made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers.

The Bill provides for that throughout. In particular, paragraphs 3 and 4 of new schedule 7B, which schedule 2 inserts into the Government of Wales Act and which the Committee will debate next week, make it clear that the Assembly may modify the private law for a devolved purpose, and that only certain core elements of the criminal law are outside its competence. Those elements are listed in paragraph 4 of the new schedule. The Assembly will, for example, be able to create and modify offences when they are for the purpose of enforcing devolved provisions.

Subsection (2) of new section 92B is intended to be helpful, explaining that the purpose of the provision is to recognise the ability of the Assembly and Welsh Ministers to make laws forming part of the unified legal system of England and Wales. The new section constitutes a declaratory statement, and does not bestow any further powers on the Assembly than are provided for elsewhere in the Bill. It is, however, important in that it enables the contribution made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers to the law of England and Wales to be recognised for the first time, while having due regard to the other provisions in the Bill. Subsection (2) is required to clarify that the statement must be considered in the context of the rest of the Bill. Without it, there might be uncertainty about the meaning of subsection (1).

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

So that the public can understand the divergence that has, to a limited degree, taken place so far, will the Minister tell us what proportion of the current law he considers to be distinctly Welsh, as opposed to England and Wales law? May we, in future, be given a regular update on that distinction, so that ordinary people understand where the law is diverging?

[Guto Bebb]

That is a good question, because it highlights the importance of ensuring that people in Wales understand where law is made. The percentage of Welsh law is currently tiny by comparison with the overall impact of the law on those people, but I think we should keep an eye on the position.

Clause 1 sets the scene for the new model of Welsh devolution that is presented in the Bill. It inserts a new part 2A into the Government of Wales Act, ensuring that, for the first time, the permanence of the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government is confirmed. It recognises both as a permanent element of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements, and as part and parcel of our nation’s constitutional fabric, and reflects the importance of the National Assembly and the Welsh Government to political life in Wales.

The Silk commission recommended that it be recognised that the National Assembly for Wales is permanent for as long as that is the will of the majority of people in Wales. In the St David’s day agreement, the Government gave an undertaking to enshrine that commitment in legislation, which we are delivering in clause 1; we did the same for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government in the Scotland Act 2016. I think it fair to say that most Members welcome that certainty.

New section 92A also provides that the Assembly and the Welsh Government are not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision by the people of Wales voting in a referendum. I hope that such a referendum will not be forthcoming, but I think it important to recognise that the decision on whether we have a Welsh Assembly and a Welsh Government is a decision for the people of Wales, to be made by them.

New section 92B underpins the commitment to permanence by recognising that there is a body of Welsh law made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers that forms part of the law of England and Wales. It is important that we recognise that in statute—which we are doing for the first time—while also recognising the elements that are common to England and Wales. Clause 1 is a declaratory statement, but its recognition of the contribution made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers to the law of England and Wales is important none the less. Meanwhile, the Justice in Wales working group of officials that I mentioned earlier will consider what changes are necessary to reflect the distinctiveness of Wales within the administrative arrangements for justice, and, as I have said, I expect a report in the autumn.

Amendment 23, tabled by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, seeks to broaden the scope of the commitment given in relation to the convention about Parliament’s legislating on devolved matters by removing the word “normally”. The commitment in clause 2 that Parliament will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Assembly reflects the current convention on legislative consent. We gave a commitment to put that convention on a statutory footing in the St David’s day agreement, and that is what clause 2 does. The clause is also in line with the provision made in relation to the Scottish Parliament in the Scotland Act 2016. Since the convention was established, a legislative consent motion has always been sought before Parliament has passed legislation for Wales in relation to devolved matters. This is part of the normal working arrangements between the UK Government and the Welsh Government and we expect it to continue, but to remove “normally” from the clause would fundamentally change the convention. The “not normally” element of both the convention and clause is essential as it acknowledges parliamentary sovereignty and, within the clause, signals to the courts that this clause is not intended to be subject to adjudication.

Wales Bill

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds). I do not always agree with everything he says, but what he says, he says with substance, and is well thought out. I enjoyed his reference to James Griffiths, who is a proud son of Ammanford, which is my home town as well, so I will make sure that the South Wales Guardian reports his comments.

At the start of my contribution, I would like to raise an issue relating to the programme motion, which will be taken after these proceedings. There will be no debate on the programme motion, but when the Under-Secretary makes his winding-up speech, will he clarify the time allocated for the Bill’s Committee stage? In our view, two days will not be enough—the Scotland Bill had four days’ deliberation—but if the Under-Secretary is able to give guarantees that that time will be protected, we will be willing to concede on that. Will he also give an outline of the likely timetable for the Bill as it proceeds through its various stages?

We have heard some fantastic contributions to the debate from Members on both sides of the House. I particularly enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), in which he made a passionate case for the full devolution of corporation tax. I fear that my comments will be tame in comparison. I made similar comments in the Western Mail on Saturday while I was out in Bordeaux, only to be accused by the shadow Secretary of State for Wales of nationalist dogma. The hon. Member for Islwyn, who is not in the Chamber, might be in trouble with the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) after this debate.

After less than two decades of devolution in Wales, we have had to change the settlement four times—this Bill will be the fifth time. Every one of those changes was meant to settle the constitutional question for a generation, yet here we are, debating another Bill that, it is claimed, will settle the constitution for our lifetime. I fear that we yet again have another tinkering Bill which will be past its sell-by date before the ink dries. During the course of the previous Bill, Plaid Cymru, the party of Wales, endeavoured to strengthen it, as we will do during the course of this Bill. I am glad to see that some of our amendments, which were ruthlessly voted down last time, are reflected in provisions in this Bill, specifically the parts that allow the National Assembly to determine its own electoral system and give the National Assembly the right to change its name if it chooses. Surely since the last Assembly election, when one party had 50% of the seats on 30% of the vote, every true democrat must realise that we have to do something about the electoral system for the National Assembly.

On the question of the name, as far as I am concerned, now that the National Assembly can pass laws, it is a Parliament in its own right. However, I accept the arguments of some of my colleagues back home in the motherland that law-making bodies in Europe are known as assemblies, such as the Assemblée nationale in France.

I particularly welcome the Chancellor’s decision in the autumn statement to remove the need for a further referendum before the proposed income tax-setting arrangement is implemented. Referendums should be held only on a fundamental point of principle, as with next week’s vote on the UK’s membership of the European Union. Conversely, the 2011 Welsh referendum on a very opaque matter indicates the problems associated with holding a public vote on technical issues.

The principle of fiscal devolution from Westminster to Wales has already been conceded in the 2014 Act, with the devolution of minor taxes, stamp duty land tax, the aggregates levy and landfill tax. Devolution of power is the settled will of the people of Wales, as is highlighted by a long list of opinion polls. Political parties just need to get on with it now and react to the growing demand for more powers for Wales, as opposed to hiding behind referendums. The only future referendum that should be held on the constitutional question in Wales is the referendum on Welsh independence, when the time comes.

The Bill is a step forward from the draft Bill, which was published last year by the then Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb). That Bill included roll-back powers, which would have been completely unacceptable to Plaid Cymru, because they undermined the settlement overwhelmingly endorsed in the 2011 referendum.

Three new reservations have been added, including the Severn crossings. We will be pushing an amendment to repatriate the bridges during the Bill’s later stages and look forward to the support of Labour and Conservative Members. It is allegedly Labour Government policy in Wales that the bridges should come under the control of the Welsh Government. It is also the policy of the Conservatives in the National Assembly. In 2013, their transport spokesman said:

“Devolution of the crossings—and future use of the tolls—has the real potential to help hard-pressed motorists, provide significant investment in Welsh infrastructure and encourage economic growth”.

The hon. Member for Gower (Byron Davies), who uttered those words while in the Assembly, was singing from my hymn sheet, and I am disappointed that he is not in the Chamber.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

Which of the three ends of the Severn bridges that are in England does the hon. Gentleman feel are subject to a right to be repatriated to Wales? After all, there is a geographical reality that should be recognised.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that point, which is always used by the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies)—I am glad to see him in the Chamber, as we have debated this issue many times. However, the reality is that the Severn bridges are the two main supply links into the south Wales economy, so it is clearly in the interests of the Welsh Government to have control over them.

I always endeavour to be helpful in my politics, and when I look at the rate of constitutional change in the UK, it appears that the only way the British state can possibly survive is as a confederal arrangement between its constituent parts. The only reserved matters in that scenario should be those relating to currency, the Head of State, defence, welfare and foreign affairs, although the boat on welfare may have started sailing with the Scotland Act.

The necessity tests have been replaced by so-called justice impact assessments. In response to the Bill, my former academic master, Richard Wyn Jones, from the Welsh Governance Centre, said in the Western Mail:

“I’m afraid this unexpected addition to the Bill suggests the mindset that devised the necessity test is still alive and kicking in Whitehall.”

He went on to say:

“It clearly undermines the UK Government’s claim to respect the National Assembly as a mature democratic institution able to make its own laws without interference.”

He concluded by saying:

“Ultimately the Secretary of State would be able to override a piece of legislation passed by the democratically elected Assembly. It is a mindset which sees the Assembly as a second-class legislature. There is no similar provision at the Northern Ireland Assembly or the Scottish Parliament.”

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to close today’s debate and to follow the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones), who made a passionate speech, highlighting and reminding us of the Labour Members who fought for devolution over the years. I am quite certain that most of those Labour Members would have been very supportive of this Wales Bill. I can offer my sympathetic support to the argument that the Welsh Grand Committee should be able to use the Welsh language, but as a Back Bencher I was not a very keen attendee of that Committee, so it might not be a power that I would use.

This has been an important and constructive debate. Although Members on both sides of the House have criticised what is in the Bill, it would be fair to say that there is a general feeling of support for it. I sometimes deplore the fact that the BBC argues that if it is attacked by people on both sides of an argument, it must be doing something right. However, having heard the speeches by the hon. Members for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) and for Arfon (Hywel Williams) on the one hand and my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies) on the other, I somehow feel as though I am a member of the BBC in saying that if those two sides of the argument are both unhappy, we must clearly be doing something right.

It is important to touch on some of the main issues identified as changes to the draft Wales Bill, and it is important to note that when we published the draft Bill back in the autumn of 2015, the Wales Office was more than willing to allow for a period of pre-legislative scrutiny. That should not be seen as a weakness; it is a strength, reflecting how this place works. Many of the criticisms have been taken on board. Some were perhaps too strong or ill-conceived, but the Bill is stronger as a result of that pre-legislative scrutiny. I pay tribute to members of the Welsh Affairs Committee who did the hard work of carefully considering the Bill clause by clause, and to the Committee Chair, who has done a fantastic job. His speech today was incredibly constructive, and he highlighted some people’s concerns, while also ensuring that they understand the genuine feeling that the aim of the Bill across the House is to make the devolution settlement work.

The change to a reserved powers model is important and fundamental, but I take issue with comments made by some Members, not least the hon. Members for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and for Arfon, who highlighted time and again the important fact that the Bill does not propose a settlement that is identical to that in Scotland. When I was growing up, the “Encyclopaedia Britannica” in our house—I think it was owned by my grandmother—stated clearly, “For Wales, see England”. It appears that some criticism of the Bill from Plaid Cymru Members basically states, “For Wales, see Scotland”, which ignores the fundamental differences between the Scottish situation and the historical settlement there, and what we are trying to create in Wales. A settlement identical to the one in Scotland is not necessarily the right way to go, and it would not necessarily create a settlement that is fair to Wales and right in that context.

[Hywel Williams]

The Minister referred to the first edition of the “Encyclopaedia Britannica”, which said, “For Wales, see England”, but the real scandal is that when someone looked under England, there was virtually nothing about Wales. Our point is that a great deal in Scotland is pertinent to Wales.

[Guto Bebb]

As some Members have said, successive Secretaries of State have highlighted the fact that the latest change to the Welsh devolution settlement will end the issue once and for all, but I genuinely think that this Bill will create a long-standing settlement. I remind the hon. Gentleman that when the Welsh devolution settlement was voted for by the people of Wales back in 1999, it was welcomed by the then leader of Plaid Cymru as a significant change to the Welsh situation. We must recognise how far the devolution settlement in Wales has travelled since that point.

The hon. Members for Arfon, for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds), for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) highlighted the reserved powers model and the number of reservations, but those reservations have been put in place to move from a conferred powers model to a reserved powers model. The number of reservations has been reduced, although there is an argument about whether they should have been reduced by a larger amount, and I am certain that there will be an opportunity in Committee to reconsider some of the elements that have been reserved. I say to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr that I am pleased to offer a full two days of Committee with protected hours, which I hope will be sufficient to ensure his support for the time allocated for the Bill.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

On air passenger duty, Bristol airport lies just outside my constituency of Bristol South, in which it started its life. We had a good debate in Westminster Hall on regional airports, led by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell). Bristol airport employs 11,000 people and has 7 million passengers, many of whom are from Wales. Our relationship with Wales is obviously important for trade and commerce, notwithstanding the issue of bridge tolls, and I am grateful that we have been able to consider that. This issue is about the equalisation of air passenger duty across the United Kingdom. Does the Minister agree?

[Guto Bebb]

Air passenger duty has been raised during the debate, and the fact that we are not proposing to devolve it has been criticised, although I think that that is right and proper. Silk made it clear that there is a need to devolve provisions for long-haul passengers, but there has been no consensus on that issue. I also ask what benefits such a measure would bring to north Wales in terms of the impact on the Welsh devolution financial settlement. At this time I think it is the right decision not to devolve air passenger duty, and I am happy to stand by that.

Many Members called for the list of reservations to be shorter, although it is important to point out that the list in the Scotland Act 1998 is not short either. It would, in my view, be impossible for the model of devolution that we are trying to create to have a two or three-page list; a long list will always be necessary. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that the aim was to secure a positive working relationship between this place and the Assembly, and I think it important to emphasise that. I believe that those reservations can be dealt with positively, and that we can work in a way that will benefit the people of Wales.

The hon. Members for Dwyfor Meirionnydd and for Torfaen, my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) and the hon. Member for Ceredigion highlighted the issue of the single legal jurisdiction. They made some positive comments about the Bill’s acknowledgement that there would be a body of Welsh law, but I think it imperative for us to understand the context of our decision.

We have consulted far and wide. We have consulted the legal profession in Wales, law colleges in Wales, legal departments in Wales and universities in Wales, and their clear response has been that it would be premature to move towards a separate legal jurisdiction. However, a working group is looking into the administrative processes involved in the development of a body of Welsh law, and I think it important that the Bill acknowledges the existence of Welsh legislation. We must try to develop a distinctive way of operating the administrative side of the legal system in Wales, rather than concentrating on the issue of a separate legal jurisdiction.

Some Members raised concerns about the justice impact assessments. I think my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made clear that the aim was not to prevent the Assembly from legislating, but to ensure that the impact of legislation was understood. The Welsh Assembly is already committed to looking at the impact of its legislation on the Welsh language and on equality issues, and I see nothing wrong with requiring it to look at the justice impact assessments as well. That, I think, is a proportionate request. It is a request that is acceded to by Westminster Departments when they legislate, and I think that it treats the Assembly as a mature body which is not only able to create law, but to understand the consequences of the development of that law.

I believe that when the aim of the Bill is clarified in Committee—if there is a need for such clarification—Members on both sides of the House will be assured that the justice impact assessment is not a necessity test. I should add that the article by Professor Richard Wyn Jones, which was quoted by numerous Members, showed a lack of understanding of the aims of the assessment, and, indeed, of who would be responsible for delivering and creating it. The responsibility will be passed on to the Assembly. It will be for the Assembly to develop justice impact assessments; there will be no dictation from Westminster.

Income tax is clearly a real issue for Conservative Members. In a powerful speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire expressed his concern about the changes, and the issue was also touched on by my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). It has been suggested that the decision to omit the need for a referendum was in some way a betrayal of a manifesto commitment, but I take issue with that. There appear to be two versions of the Conservative manifesto, the Welsh version and the national version. Page 58 of the Welsh version, which I read, made clear that the promise could be questioned, because once a funding floor had been established, and we have delivered that funding floor, there would be an expectation—an expectation—that the Welsh Government would hold a referendum.

In my view, it is clear that the Welsh Government are prevaricating on whether they want income tax powers. I think it is absolutely clear to Conservative Members that provision for a tax settlement is essential, because the Bill is about clarity, accountability and responsibility for the Welsh Government. Yes, more powers are being devolved, but it is nevertheless essential for a degree of accountability to be passed on to the Welsh Government. I would argue that that accountability, which is understood by local councils and parish councils and by police and crime commissioners, is essential for good governance in Wales and for the Welsh Assembly. I would question whether this is indeed a breach of a manifesto commitment, but more importantly I would say the decision is justified in order to have a settlement which ensures that the people of Wales know that the Welsh Government and Assembly are responsible not just for spending in Wales but also for raising tax in Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Does the Minister not therefore agree that it would be far easier to achieve those aims of accountability, incentivisation and clarity if 100% of income tax powers were devolved, as well as achieving the non-detrimental fiscal framework which is key to underpinning the devolution of that tax?

[Guto Bebb]

Once again the hon. Gentleman is putting ideology ahead of practicality. There is a significant difference between the population that lies along the Welsh border with England and the population on the border with Scotland. We have to move very carefully. This is a proportionate settlement that ensures there is a degree of tax accountability. He is possibly pushing his luck on this, because that ideology is not supported by the people of Wales.

We are moving in the right direction. This Government have achieved a funding floor, whereby we guarantee that spending in Wales will never be less than 115% of spending in England. That guarantee was not forthcoming for 13 years of a Labour Government here in Westminster, and it has now been offered by this Government.

[Nia Griffith]

Does the Minister accept that it was in our 2010 manifesto? It was actually our Secretary of State who put it in our manifesto, so it came from us originally.

[Guto Bebb]

Well—[Interruption]—as the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) just said from the Treasury Bench, it took 13 years for it to become a Labour manifesto commitment, yet we have delivered it within a few months of having a majority Conservative Government. I think we should be very proud of the fact that we have delivered that funding floor.

Significant questions have been asked about the retention of the two necessity tests. Those two tests are justified. We are saying clearly that there is a necessity test where the Assembly is legislating on matters that affect England. That is the right thing to do because there is an issue of accountability and democracy, and I do not think the Assembly should be legislating on issues that relate to England without having the necessity test. In the same way, where the Assembly seeks to legislate on matters that relate to reserved powers, it is important to have that necessity test. It should be noted that that second test is also in the Scottish Bill.

The hon. Member for Llanelli asked whether there will be a disincentive for devolved ports to grow. I am pleased to confirm that the Bill is clear that the sum in question is a fixed sum at the point at which this Bill is passed. For example, if a port has a turnover of £14 million, it will be devolved; if it then grows, it will remain devolved. There is no prospect of a clawback. In relation to a trust port, the argument for retaining responsibility for Milford Haven in Westminster is clearly made by the fact that it is responsible for 62% of all our gas imports. But this is again a step in the right direction and if, for example, as a result of the Welsh Government or the Welsh Assembly’s activity there is growth in the ports of Holyhead or Newport, they will remain part of the responsibility of the Welsh Government. That is a step in the right direction.

The hon. Member for Arfon mentioned that there is a difference between the way we treat water services and sewerage. The reason why one is mentioned in the Bill and the other is not is because we are now equalising the situation. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are also looking carefully at the situation in relation to water, and more information will be forthcoming at a future point.

Several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West, highlighted issues in relation to energy. It is fair to say that this House has legislated to pass responsibility for wind farm developments to local authorities in Wales, and I think there should be a challenge to the Welsh Government as to why they do not trust local authorities with that responsibility. The Energy Act 2016 made that commitment to a local level of control on wind farms. I think we should all challenge the Welsh Government as to why they are unwilling to trust the local people on an issue of that nature.

The capacity of power lines was also touched on. Again, clarity is required here. It is correct to say that there will be a limitation in that power lines going across the border at a higher level than 132 kV will remain the responsibility of Westminster whereas other such matters will be devolved. This, too, is a significant step in the right direction that will make a real difference for economic development in Wales.

The hon. Member for Ceredigion highlighted three matters on the reservation list and asked why they had been reserved. One was the Severn crossing, which I touched on in an intervention. We believe that it is inappropriate to devolve powers over the Severn bridges when three of the four landing points are in England. That would be taking devolution to an extent that would bring it into disrepute. He also asked about prostitution, which does not fall into the category of legislating for criminal behaviour. It falls under schedule 2, because the aim is to ensure that there is no possibility of changing the legislation. We had to place it separately within the legislation in order to respond to legal constraints. He also asked about heating and cooling systems, and the aim there is to ensure that everything to do with electricity and gas appliances is regulated in the same manner across England and Wales. Again, this is an effort to ensure clarity.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West asked about speed limits being devolved. It is important to point out that that was a recommendation by the Silk commission. The proposal was also part of the St David’s day process and there was agreement on it at that stage. Also, changes to speed limits in Wales are already being implemented at local authority level, so we believe that this is an appropriate change.

It is fair to say that this is a complex and difficult Bill. It has had a long gestation period, and it is been subject to significant scrutiny here in the House and in the Welsh Assembly, as well as by civic society in Wales.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

A number of Members have asked about the timing in relation to the Justice in Wales working group. I would appreciate a response on whether we will get the report back from the working group before the Bill goes into Committee, because it will be relevant to our work there.

[Guto Bebb]

In my view, it is unlikely that the report will be produced before the Committee stage, but it is possible that it will be with us before Report and Third Reading. Obviously, decisions relating to Report and Third Reading will be made by the Leader of the House. I hope that that gives the hon. Lady some certainty.

As I was saying, this is an important Bill. It clarifies the devolution settlement and puts into place the St David’s day agreement. It makes devolution clearer by putting in place a reserved powers model of devolution for Wales, with a clearer line between what is devolved and what is reserved, and I think that most people in Wales—especially the politicians—will welcome that clarity. It strengthens devolution through a further historic transfer of powers, and those powers will make a real difference to the lives of people in Wales. It will make devolution fairer, and it removes the requirement for a referendum before the devolution of income tax in order to ensure that that accountability exists. It is fair to say that we have listened to the concerns raised during the pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill and made significant changes to try to address those concerns. As a result, we have in front of us a much improved Bill that deserves to go before a Committee of this House. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.



WALES BILL (PROGRAMME)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Wales Bill:

Committal

1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Proceedings in Committee

2. Proceedings in the Committee of the whole House shall be completed in two days.

3. The proceedings shall be taken on the days shown in the first column of the following Table and in the order so shown.

4. The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

1. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on rail electrification in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

This Government’s rail investment strategy is historic in its scale and ambition, and will benefit passengers in both north and south Wales. We are electrifying the Great Western main line all the way to Swansea, and we are developing the north Wales main line through a £43 million programme of modernisation and investment.

[Christian Matheson]

The Department for Transport seems to be making precious little progress on the Crewe to Chester-north Wales coast electrification, so will the Minister get together with his DFT colleagues and perhaps the Welsh Assembly Government, and I will even come along myself, to get a full engineering survey to find out the costs and the timescale for the electrification process, which is so important to the growth of the area?

[Guto Bebb]

I understand the importance of the north Wales main line to the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and the whole of north Wales. We are engaged in a £43 million programme of investment and modernisation and we are seeing the benefits of that investment. For example, there has already been vast improvement in services from Chester to Euston, which also benefits north Wales. I would thoroughly welcome the opportunity to discuss this further with the hon. Gentleman as part of our strategy for a north Wales growth deal.

[Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)]

Will the Minister join me in welcoming the recent decision by the Office of Rail and Road to permit regular new direct rail services from north Wales and Chester to Manchester airport? Does he agree that journey times remain too lengthy? With that in mind, will he encourage Network Rail to increase line speeds and pave the way for electrification by prioritising the replacement of Victorian signalling systems—works that had been due for completion last year?

[Guto Bebb]

My hon. Friend touches on the crucial point. I pay tribute to his work since he came into the House. I remember his first Adjournment debate on north Wales transport links, in which he talked about the importance of the north Wales rail line and the A55. He is right to highlight the fantastic investment from Arriva Trains, which will see a tripling of the services from Llandudno in my constituency to Manchester airport. That development is most welcome to people in north Wales. I thoroughly accept that we need to modernise the signalling system, which is why we have a £47 million programme of investment during control period 5 and control period 6. That has slipped somewhat, which is a shame, but it is interesting to note that it did not preclude the decision by Arriva Trains to increase its services dramatically.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab/Co-op)]

When the Secretary of State was serving as the Under-Secretary, he met my predecessor to discuss the Pencoed level crossing, which causes a significant amount of chaos in the town and the Ogmore constituency. Will he agree to meet me and constituents from Pencoed to carry on those positive discussions about improving the Pencoed crossing?

[Guto Bebb]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his place. I am aware that the Wales Office has been working with local government and the Welsh Government in relation to the Pencoed issue. I would be delighted to meet the hon. Gentleman—after all, my first by-election was in Ogmore. It was a very wet by-election. I would be delighted to meet residents of Pencoed once again.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

There is great momentum in north Wales and north-west England to improve transport links. This is a time for the Welsh Government and the UK Government to work together to improve those links. May we therefore have candour? The £43 million that the Minister referred to was actually investment by the Welsh Government, so will the UK Government step up to the plate and invest a penny piece in infrastructure in north Wales? That would be very welcome.

[Guto Bebb]

It is important and imperative that we work together—the Welsh Government, local authorities and the UK Government—in developing transport links throughout north Wales. That is why we have opened the door for a north Wales growth deal, on which we are working in partnership with the Mersey Dee Alliance and the North Wales Economic Ambition Board. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that a real, effective change in north Wales will depend upon co-operation between Westminster and the Welsh Government.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

The new Welsh Government are ready; cross-party and cross-border, Members of Parliament and local authorities are ready; and most important of the lot, we north Walians are very ready. May we have a commitment for proper electrification so that we end up with a growth deal that is worth the name?

[Guto Bebb]

It is imperative that we look carefully at the best value for money from investment in our transport infrastructure. I accept that there is a need to work together, but I also highlight the fact that the CBI and the Federation of Small Businesses this morning called for more action from the Welsh Government. We hear that £200 million has been allocated for the A55, for example, but we have yet to see any action. We do need to work together; finger-pointing does not help.

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

2. What steps the Government are taking to support the steel industry in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

4. What assessment he has made of the effect in Wales of the Government’s measures to support small businesses.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

Small businesses are leading the economic recovery in Wales. There are now 30,000 more small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales, employing 65,000 more people than in 2010. With SMEs accounting for over 99% of all businesses in Wales, the UK Government fully recognise their important contribution to the growth of the Welsh economy.

[Sir Henry Bellingham]

The Chancellor’s recent Budget announcement that business rates for the smallest businesses will be either greatly reduced or removed has gone down very well. It will have huge advantages for small shops in particular. What steps are the Minister and the Secretary of State taking to make sure that businesses in Wales will also benefit?

[Guto Bebb]

My hon. Friend is perfectly right to say that the business rates announcement was welcomed by small businesses in England. The Wales Office is calling on the Welsh Government to replicate the steps taken in England, in order to ensure that small businesses in towns and cities across Wales benefit in the same way from the changes that are being implemented in England, which will allow them to grow and to employ more people in Wales.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Welsh Government have done well in attracting inward investment, but in terms of business confidence and Brexit, what will the UK Government do to shore up certainties about the Swansea bay lagoon, electrification and supporting Swansea with a city deal?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the Wales Office is working very closely with the Treasury to develop a Swansea city deal, which will include the electrification of the main line to Swansea. We are also proposing a review of the Swansea bay tidal lagoon in order to look at its viability and to ensure that it will provide value to the taxpayer if it is developed.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Some 242,000 jobs are directly or indirectly dependent on a successful tourism industry. Will the Minister concede that we could boost those small businesses either by reducing VAT on hospitality and tourism or by raising the threshold on which they pay VAT?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is a champion of this issue and has been ever since I have been in this place. I share his view of the tourism industry in Wales: it is a success story of which we should be justly proud. It is important that the case is made to the Treasury, but I stress that the tourism industry in my constituency and in that of the hon. Gentleman is doing extremely well at present, regardless of any changes to VAT.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

As the Minister well knows, many small businesses in Wales are highly dependent on the steel industry and will have been anxiously awaiting the outcome of today’s meeting in Mumbai. The terms of the package that his Government propose will be crucial to any potential deal, so will he confirm that they will do everything it takes to secure a successful future for our steel industry?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to highlight the importance of the steel industry not just to direct employment but to the supply chains in both north and south Wales. I assure her that the Wales Office and the UK Government are doing everything in their power to ensure that the steel industry and its skilled supply chain are protected in the future.

[Nia Griffith]

Many of our small businesses will also be concerned about the EU referendum, not least those in the Welsh agricultural sector, which received some £350 million a year from the common agricultural policy. The Minister has previously confirmed that, in the event of a Brexit vote, there is absolutely no certainty that his Government would replace those EU funds, so does he agree that it is in the very best interests of Welsh farming and the broader Welsh economy that we vote to remain in the EU on 23 June?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to highlight the importance of the agricultural industry to Wales. Almost 60,000 people are directly employed within the sector, and more than 95% of all Welsh agricultural exports go to the European Union, so I fully subscribe to her view that the Welsh agricultural sector will be protected if we vote to remain in the EU.

[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of trends in the level of employment in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

The labour market in Wales is going from strength to strength. Last week’s figures delivered a hat-trick of good news for the Welsh economy: employment is up to a new record high, unemployment is down to its lowest level since 2008, and the number of people on the claimant count continues to fall.

[Maria Caulfield]

Do not the Minister’s figures show that the Government’s welfare reforms are working in Wales and helping employment for ordinary people?

[Guto Bebb]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I recently visited Cardiff with the Minister for Employment and it was truly inspiring to hear the team at the Cardiff jobcentre highlight how universal credit and the flexibility it offers is encouraging people back to work.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The Minister will have seen this week’s Treasury assessment of the impact of withdrawal from the European Union on the UK economy. Could he give us his view of the impact of withdrawal on the Welsh economy?

[Guto Bebb]

The right hon. Gentleman is well aware of my position on this issue. I believe quite passionately that the Welsh economy is stronger for being part of the European Union. Whether for our manufacturing industry, our agriculture industry or our small businesses, I think the stability and certainty of being part of the European Union are good for Wales.

[Craig Williams (Cardiff North) (Con)]

The unemployment level in Cardiff North is at a record low of 1.7%. Does the Minister agree that to support this trend and keep unemployment down, the new Welsh Government have to deliver on infrastructure promises such as the M4 relief road and the south Wales Metro, towards which this Government have given hundreds of millions of pounds?

[Guto Bebb]

My hon. Friend has been a great champion for the capital city of Wales since he was elected to this place. The £500 million contribution of the UK Government to the city deal in Cardiff will be essential for employment, growth and the continued success of Cardiff, but we need to keep up the pressure. The question marks over the M4 relief road are a barrier to growth in south Wales, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise his concerns about those delays. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. A great many people in Wales will be attending to our proceedings, and I must also inform the House that today we are visited by the eminent figure Cardinal Charles Bo from Rangoon in Burma. We want to impress him not only with the quality of our interrogation but with the decency of our behaviour, so a little less noise would be helpful.

Cardiff Coal Exchange

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) on his speech and on securing this debate. It is important that Westminster is still relevant to the communities that we represent in Wales, and highlighting such issues in Westminster Hall debates is appropriate and correct. He said that he does not expect me to have all the answers, and indeed it would be inappropriate for me to respond to some of the points that have been raised because many of them are issues for the Welsh Government and for City of Cardiff Council, which as part of local government in Wales is answerable to the Welsh Government. I will have to restrain myself from commenting on devolved areas. It is important to place this debate in context and to respond to the undevolved issues, and I will particularly respond to the questions on the tax allowance system. Additionally, it is important to touch on the Crown Estate’s position in the sales process to try to allay some of the fears he raised.

On the background to the debate, I fully subscribe to the hon. Gentleman’s comments on the coal exchange, which is an iconic Welsh building. We should be proud that Wales was able to dictate the price of coal throughout the world, and we should trumpet that the first £1 million business transaction—the sale of coal to France—happened at the coal exchange. We should talk about that when we discuss the history of Cardiff but, in the context of Cardiff bay, this debate is also an opportunity to highlight the way in which Wales has developed. We should proudly boast of the revitalisation of Cardiff bay and highlight the economic impact of the changes in Cardiff that have been secured through the work of successive Governments here in Westminster, in co-operation with Governments in Cardiff bay—it is an example of the two Governments working together and of the local authority being proactive in redeveloping an area that was ripe for redevelopment. This is a success story, and there is no doubt that the coal exchange is an iconic building at the centre of the proposed redevelopment of Cardiff bay.

When we talk about redevelopment and business opportunities in Cardiff, it is no bad thing to trumpet, for example, the Cardiff city deal. I represent a north Wales constituency, and I often hear the accusation that all the investment in Wales goes to Cardiff, but it is important to point out that the scale of the Cardiff city deal is not confined to the city of Cardiff; it will have a huge impact on all the areas surrounding Cardiff. Indeed, a significant proportion of the Welsh population will be affected by the Cardiff city deal, which has secured a £1.2 billion investment on a cross-governmental level. I am sure that every hon. Member in this Chamber would welcome that.

Cardiff is a city that is going places and performing extremely well in attracting inward investment. There is no doubt that the Cardiff bay area has been crucial to the refocusing of Cardiff in the mind of inward investors as a city with a “can do” attitude, which has made a difference to job creation throughout the area and south Wales.

[Craig Williams]

There is a direct comparison between the scale of regeneration in Cardiff under the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation, which was formed under the previous Conservative Government, and the city deal in partnership with the Wales Government. It is a national disgrace that we are debating the future of the coal exchange and that it has been left to fall down through the inaction of the Labour Welsh Government. The impression has been given that the officers run City of Cardiff Council, which has a Labour cabinet.

[Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)]

Order. That is very lengthy for an intervention.

[Guto Bebb]

Concerns have been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) and by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) on the inactivity, or otherwise, of the Welsh Government. It is not for me to comment on that, but I am sure that the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth will be making his views known in due course.

Two specific issues have been raised to which I can respond. First, I cannot respond to the sales process adopted by City of Cardiff Council, but it is only right and proper that I address the involvement of the Crown Estate, about which the hon. Gentleman expressed concern. It is clear that the whole process was subject to the escheat process, which means that the building was never owned by the Crown Estate. As such, the Crown Estate was neither consulted nor involved in the process by which the property’s ownership is being transferred. That is not unique; it is a pattern that can be seen in many circumstances involving the Crown Estate. The actual decision-making process will be for City of Cardiff Council and the Welsh Government. Although the Crown Estate is technically involved, it is not odd that it was not consulted and did not provide any input in the process.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the tax allowance scheme, and it is fair to say that the business premises renovation allowance is central to the redevelopment plan. He is right to highlight the fact that the scheme will be coming to an end at the end of this financial year at the end of March 2017. He is also correct that concerns have been raised about the way in which the scheme has been utilised in the past. Those concerns, which were raised, I think, back in 2011-12, have been addressed by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and it was stated in summer Budget 2015 that the scheme would be coming to an end. That is still the case. It is important to highlight the fact that the BPRA is a capital allowance scheme, and my understanding is that under such schemes any claim for the allowance would have to be made retrospectively, after the expenditure is made. It is also important to highlight the fact that any claim for a capital allowance under such a scheme would have to refer to expenditure incurred during the 2016-17 financial year. Any expenditure incurred after that point would obviously be outside the scope of the allowance scheme, which is a fairly important point.

[Stephen Doughty]

rose—

[Guto Bebb]

I apologise, but I am afraid that I have only one minute.

The hon. Gentleman’s concerns have been heard, if nothing else. By raising this issue in Westminster, he has ensured that the concerns of tenants, the local community and elected representatives have been heard. The concerns raised in relation to the tenants of the coal exchange are valid and should be addressed, and everyone would agree that the redevelopment of such an iconic business should be open and transparent and should have the support of the local community. However, on the issues relating to the involvement of the Westminster Government, I restate that the Crown Estate process has been par for the course. In the same way, the concerns raised about the tax allowance scheme are valid if this redevelopment does not happen before the end of March 2017 but, as it currently stands, the scheme is still in existence.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

3. What recent assessment he has made of employment trends in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

The labour market in Wales has never been stronger. Although we recognise the challenges facing the Welsh economy, there is a lot to celebrate. Unemployment has fallen to its lowest since 2008 and the number of people in work in Wales is at an all-time high.

[Mark Pawsey]

I welcome the Minister to his position. He is quite rightly focusing on the issues affecting steel production at Port Talbot, but what assessment has he made of the decision by Aston Martin to build its new DBX car at St Athan?

[Guto Bebb]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight that success story. It is a success story for all of the United Kingdom. It is an investment in St Athan, in Wales and in Britain, creating 750 highly skilled jobs in Wales and the west midlands, and I am very grateful to the Prime Minister and to Michael Fallon for the work that they have put into achieving that success.

[Mr Speaker]

I think that the hon. Gentleman was referring to the Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon). Some name was mentioned, but it does not mean anything in the Chamber.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Since 2012, Jobs Growth Wales has helped 15,000 people into meaningful employment. Given that youth unemployment is falling faster in Wales than in the UK as a whole, does the Minister agree that the UK Government could learn from the Welsh Labour Government in this regard?

[Guto Bebb]

It is interesting to note that an independent audit of Jobs Growth Wales has highlighted that some 80% of its spending has been inefficient. However, it is important to point out that successful jobs creation in Wales is dependent on co-operation between the two Governments, which is exactly what we saw in relation to Aston Martin.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

11. My hon. Friend will know that tourism is a major employer. Will he take this opportunity of paying tribute to Andrew R. T. Davies, the leader of the Conservatives in the Welsh Assembly, and to Anthony Pickles for coming up with the idea of bringing the Prince of Wales’s regalia to Wales? Will he also praise the Prince of Wales for following up on that idea? What discussions is the Minister having with the Welsh Government to promote this?

[Guto Bebb]

I will of course join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the leader of the Welsh Conservatives. It is important to highlight the importance of tourism to the Welsh economy, and bringing the regalia back to Wales is the right thing to do. I am certain that the castle of Conwy in my constituency would be delighted to host them.

[Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab)]

Does the Minister think that his colleagues’ plan to sack hundreds of civil servants in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in Cardiff will help or hinder employment trends in Wales?

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question, but she will be aware that it would be inappropriate for me to comment on a leaked report. The key thing that we need to be aware of is that wherever in Wales we look—north, south, west or east—we are seeing employment growth.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

14. I welcome my hon. Friend to his new position and congratulate him on his new job. Does he agree that the reductions to business taxes announced in the Budget and the ability of people to keep more of their own earnings will create an environment in which the private sector can invest and in which employment opportunities can come to Wales in the same way as they do to the rest of the country?

[Guto Bebb]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. The tax cuts that have been put in place by this Government since 2010 are to be welcomed. Of particular importance in the Budget was the announcement on small business rates, and I call on the Welsh Government to follow the example of the Westminster Government to ensure that Welsh small businesses have the same advantages through their business rates as do those in England.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Only 38% of working-age disabled people are in jobs in Wales, compared with 46% in the UK as a whole. Why?

[Guto Bebb]

The right hon. Lady asks an important question. There is more work to be done and, again, there is a need to work together on this issue. However, I would highlight the fact that more and more people with disabilities are now in work—152,000 more in the past 12 months and over 300,000 more in the past 24 months. We need to ensure that the successes we are seeing across the country are replicated in Wales.

[Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)]

4. What assessment he has made of risks to the future of the steel industry in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

6. What assessment he has made of the economic effect on Wales of UK membership of the EU.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

The European Union makes a massive contribution to the Welsh economy: it is our largest trading partner; it supports thousands of jobs; and it provides significant investments for projects all around Wales. The economic benefits of a reformed EU are far too great to risk leaving.

[Nic Dakin]

I thank the Minister for that answer. He is absolutely right; the Welsh economy depends on EU funding to a large extent. Does he agree that remaining in the EU is vital for training and employment opportunities in Wales and across the UK?

[Guto Bebb]

I fully endorse the comments the hon. Gentleman has made. The funding from the EU has been significant in re-skilling the Welsh workforce to a very high extent and the support given by the EU to higher education institutions is phenomenal.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Small family farms remain the backbone of the west Wales rural economy, but incomes have declined by £5,000 over the past two years. Does the Minister share the concerns of the Farmers Union of Wales, the National Farmers Union and many in the rural economy that the last thing we need to countenance is withdrawal from the European Union?

[Guto Bebb]

I entirely endorse the hon. Gentleman’s comments. Both farming unions in Wales—the FUW and the NFU—are strongly in favour of our remaining in the reformed European Union. The extent of Welsh agricultural produce that is exported to the EU shows how important that market is; 90% of Welsh agricultural produce is exported to the EU and we should not risk losing that.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

On this point, the Minister is absolutely right. The best decision for Wales is to stay in the European Union, as our favourite pamphlet says. But can he tell us why, at a time when Sir Terry Matthews, Airbus, NFU Cymru and the FUW support our membership, Andrew R. T. Davies, the person the Conservative party wants to be First Minister of Wales, wants Wales out of the EU? It is a disgrace, is it not? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

I think we got the gist of it.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to highlight the support of Airbus, Horizon Nuclear Power and the farming unions, but I make this point to her: the Conservative party is a democratic party that believes passionately that the people who can make a decision about this issue are the people of this country. We have offered them a referendum and their votes will result in a decision in 10 weeks’ time.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

7. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of support for employment for disabled people in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

The Government believe every disabled person who wants to work should be able to work. As announced in the spending review, there will be a real-terms spending increase on supporting disabled people into work. That will ensure that valuable talent and skill will be further recognised in the Welsh workforce. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are discussing the situation of disabled people in Wales.

[Debbie Abrahams]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Disability rights organisations, the Equality and Human Rights Commission and many others have decried the lack of evidence in support of the Government’s cutting £1,500 a year from disabled people who have been found not fit for work. How many employers in Wales have the Government signed up as active Disability Confident employers for those disabled people who are fit for work?

[Guto Bebb]

It is important to point out, first, that supporting disabled people into the workplace is incredibly important, and this Government have a track record of success. Over the past 12 months, we have seen 150,000 disabled people enter the workplace; the figure is more than 300,000 over the past 24 months. I am proud of the fact that Swansea is the first disabled-friendly city in the UK, supporting disabled people into employment. On the specific numbers, I will write to the hon. Lady with the details that she requests.

[Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (SNP)]

Will the Minister concede that with more than a third of work capability assessment appeals being successful, Government policy is damaging the lives of a great many disabled people and starving them of money that they need in order to live a reasonable quality of life?

[Guto Bebb]

Although the work capability assessments need to be refined and are being refined, it is crucial to highlight the fact that this Government strongly believe that people who are disabled and who want to work and are able to work have a contribution to make. The aim of this Government’s policies is to help people into employment where that is possible, and the figures show that our policies are successful.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the Minister to his post. Is he aware that the callous policy of the Conservative Government of implementing personal independence payments is leading to many people being prevented from working because Motability cars are being taken away from them, which prevents them from being able to travel to work? Will he speak to the Prime Minister, who is sitting next to him, to try to talk some sense into him?

[Guto Bebb]

I find the hon. Gentleman’s comments slightly disappointing. When he looks at all the changes in the employment situation in his constituency, he should welcome this Government’s work on welfare reform. The welfare reform changes that we are putting in place are contributing to behavioural change, leading to more people supporting their own families and contributing to the economy. When he looks at the statistics for the Wrexham constituency, he should welcome the changes, instead of condemning them.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Macur Review of Historical Child Abuse

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I thank hon. Members for their warm welcome for my appointment to this position; it is appreciated. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) made the point that this is not the baptism that one would have expected or anticipated, and this has been a difficult week of trying to get to grips with a very difficult subject area, but the way in which the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) has approached the debate and the way in which other hon. Members have contributed are to be applauded and are certainly appreciated from my point of view.

As a north Walian MP, I am acutely aware of the dark shadow that this issue has thrown over north Wales, and the rest of Wales for that matter, for far too long. Therefore, it is appropriate to congratulate the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd on securing the debate and on how it has been conducted. All the contributions made by MPs from north Wales have shown the seriousness with which we want to approach the issue and the importance of ensuring that lessons are learned in order to ensure that we can give some clarity and confidence to the people in north Wales, in accordance with the comments made by the hon. Member for Wrexham.

[Ann Clwyd]

Not only in north Wales.

[Guto Bebb]

I accept that point. I also pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) for her work on these issues, and while I am paying tributes, I would like to say that the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd is clearly following in her predecessor’s footsteps in highlighting concerns on this issue.

It is important that I try to respond to the questions that have been asked. It would be easy for me to comment on how the Waterhouse inquiry was established and the concerns about the Waterhouse inquiry. We could talk about how the Macur review was established and the concerns there. However, the key point is that I have limited time to deal with the questions that have been raised, so I will try to respond to all of them, and if I fail, I will certainly ensure that I write to hon. Members on those specific issues.

It is important to make this clarification at the outset. The hon. Member for Wrexham highlighted a degree of concern that the previous Secretary of State for Wales made the statement on Thursday and subsequently this debate is being responded to by the Wales Office. It is important to point out that the Macur review was jointly commissioned. In view of the fact that the original Waterhouse report was commissioned by the Wales Office and in view of the fact that this report was a joint commission, I think it is appropriate that the Wales Office responds, but clearly questions can be asked of both Departments. The Departments will consult each other in responding to any further questions from the hon. Gentleman; and clearly, if there are any omissions in the speech that I make today, further questions can be asked. The Departments will work together to try to give answers that will satisfy hon. Members in relation to the concerns that they have raised.

Clearly, the key concern highlighted by hon. Members across the Chamber this afternoon relates to redactions. Those concerns have been expressed not only by hon. Members, but by civil society in Wales and of course by the Children’s Commissioner for Wales. I am very pleased to be able to report that I have spoken this morning to the Children’s Commissioner for Wales. It is clearly appropriate that we take her concerns seriously. I will write, on behalf of the Department, to the Children’s Commissioner to respond to some of the concerns that she has expressed, and will highlight the reasons and the methodology, which have been provided in the public domain, in relation to why some of the redactions were undertaken. The Children’s Commissioner is more than welcome to put that letter in the public domain in due course. There is no intention whatever to hide from any of the questions in relation to redactions.

In responding fully on the issue of redactions, I think it is fair to say that this concern was raised before publication of the report, by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley, and the statement was very clear that the redactions would be as minimal as possible. That is why, when we published the report, we also published the two letters: the letter from the Cabinet Office and the letter from the Government’s legal department explaining why there was a need to do some redactions in the report. It is fair to say that in the report Lady Justice Macur herself states that there are certain details that should be considered for redaction; and again, the important thing here is for me to try to explain on what basis those decisions were taken.

Clearly, the first reason for redactions, which is crucial and understood, I suspect, by all Members of the House, is that we would not want to do anything that would potentially compromise any ongoing police investigations and any criminal proceedings. It is clear that a tribute was paid in the main Chamber on Thursday to the work of the National Crime Agency through Operation Pallial. It would be a travesty of justice if the publication of names in the Macur report without being redacted properly were to threaten in any way, shape or form the possibility of further criminal investigations and further charges being levied. The danger is of undermining any further criminal proceedings, which would be a further betrayal of the needs of the victims in north Wales, who want to see justice done at the end of the day. In terms of redactions, it is clear that we have an obligation to ensure that nothing printed and published in this report could in any way, shape or form damage the possibility of any further criminal proceedings or of further legal action being taken as a result of criminal investigations that are now forthcoming.

I come now to the second category. Clearly, a significant number of names of victims of abuse have been redacted. That, again, is a legal requirement. We are required under the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992 to ensure that the identities of those who have suffered sexual abuse are protected; they have a right to anonymity. Therefore, those redactions have been done in order to protect people who have already suffered. It would be wrong to have people’s names dragged through the public sphere once more. Those people have already suffered so much as a result of the abuse that they suffered.

The redactions in those two categories have been overseen by Sue Gray, the director general of propriety and ethics in the Cabinet Office. The letter from Sue Gray was published at the same time as this report, so again, the reasoning behind the redactions was certainly communicated and will be communicated again to the Children’s Commissioner, as I stated.

The third category, which I suspect is the one causing most concern to hon. Members in view of the speeches that have been made, is those individuals who have been accused of abuse or speculated to be involved in abuse, who have not been subject to a police investigation, who have not been convicted of a criminal offence and whose name is not in the public domain in the context of child abuse. It is important to state that in the report Lady Justice Macur advises that the publication of those names would be

“unfair in two respects and unwise in a third.”

That is not the Government—not the Wales Office—it is Lady Justice Macur herself. She states:

“First, the nature of the information against them sometimes derives from multiple hearsay”.

I understand the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd in relation to the use of hearsay, but again, that was not a recommendation coming from Government; it was from Lady Justice Macur herself. She also states that

“second, these individuals will have no proper opportunity to address the unattributed and, sometimes, unspecified allegations of disreputable conduct made against them”.

Again, that is a statement made by Lady Justice Macur. She continued,

“and third, police investigations may be compromised”.

Now, I have already touched on the issue of criminal investigations. We do have an obligation to highlight where we believe there is wrongdoing but we also have an obligation to ensure that we are not pointing the finger at individuals who might be completely and utterly innocent. We all know that there is a danger that publishing names without any specific allegations being made and without any specific justification could create a witch hunt, which is the last thing that a responsible Government or Parliament should be involved with.

It is important to highlight that the redactions were not undertaken to protect any individuals or to damage the report. They were undertaken to ensure the integrity of the report. I understand the concerns because, as a Member from north Wales, I read the report on Thursday in no way anticipating that I would be responding to the debate today. However, I think that the arguments presented by the Treasury Solicitor and by the Cabinet Office are not without merit. Indeed, I challenge hon. Members to state whether they believe that those arguments are incorrect.

[Ian C. Lucas]

I accept many of the arguments that the Minister makes, but why were the two names I mentioned earlier unredacted while many other names were redacted?

[Guto Bebb]

I will try to respond to that in my next few comments. Just to finish the comments I was making, I understand the frustration and the feeling that there could have been fewer redactions, but it is imperative that the reasoning, in the round, is understood by hon. Members. I have tried to explain why those redactions have been made. I have explained very clearly that they were undertaken as a result of advice given, which I think was quite reasonable. I hope that hon. Members will take that into account. There has been no attempt to mislead or to not be very clear as to the basis for the changes. We are more than happy to correspond on the issue if the hon. Member for Wrexham feels the need to take it any further.

[Albert Owen]

On the issue of redaction, does the Minister understand the concerns of many people that only Government Departments saw the unredacted version? He may be coming to that. I think it is hugely important.

[Guto Bebb]

Yes, I will touch on that issue, which was also raised by the hon. Member for Wrexham. It is simply not correct that only Government Ministers have seen the uncorrected report. It might be correct that the only politicians who have seen the report are Government politicians but it is not only the Government who have seen it. Clearly, an unredacted copy has been sent to the Goddard review, Operation Pallial, Operation Orion and Operation Hydrant.

It is simply not correct to say that the only people who have seen an unredacted version of the report are Government Ministers. If the argument is that we should provide that information to all elected politicians but not to the general public, it is a completely different argument. Given the way in which politicians are viewed, I am not sure that would contribute any further to the trust that the hon. Member for Wrexham seeks.

On the methodology, I have tried to explain why the redactions were undertaken. The two letters that we received have been published. I will write to the Children’s Commissioner for Wales highlighting again the reasons for the redactions. I am not claiming that the response will satisfy all people’s concerns, but it is clear that the Wales Office and the Government ensured that the advice that was provided was published at the same time as the report. We have provided the explanation for the methodology and we will provide further explanations.

I understand that the hon. Members for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) and for Dwyfor Meirionnydd highlighted concerns but I think that those have been addressed. If they need to be addressed in further detail, I hope that our letter to the Children’s Commissioner for Wales will provide that. I am more than happy to respond to any questions received.

[Paul Flynn]

Does the Minister know that there is a precedent for revealing to Members of Parliament reports that are entirely secret? The report that I saw as a member of the Select Committee on Home Affairs—the Operation Tiberius report—was an extraordinary document that named many people including criminals and police, who worked together through the freemasonry movement. We inspected that report under strict terms of security. We were not allowed to take our phones in. We were watched the whole time and we were not allowed to take any notes. There is a precedent for allowing Members of Parliament to see the unredacted report.

[Guto Bebb]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point but hon. Members have made arguments that the redactions are damaging public confidence. I am unsure how the idea he offers would contribute to solving the issue of public confidence because a very limited amount of people in the political sphere would be responding. A couple of other questions were asked by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd—

[Ian C. Lucas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Guto Bebb]

Could I just answer this question because I am aware of the time? Another question was asked by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd about recommendation five. The issue relates to the consideration of criminal charges relating to events referred to in paragraphs 645 to 675 of the report. It does not relate to the actions of the Wales Office or of any Government Department. The police and Crown Prosecution Service are aware of the specifics of the matter, and that issue is a matter for them to consider, not the Government.

The hon. Members for Clwyd South and for Dwyfor Meirionnydd asked how many redactions, in addition to those that were a result of the advice given, were made by the Government. The answer is zero. Not a single further redaction was made. The redactions that have been made were all in accordance with the advice given and the explanation that has been provided.

The hon. Member for Wrexham asked about the publication of some names and not others. Again, the letter from the Treasury Solicitor sets out the methodology for redacting such names, saying very clearly that they are the names of people who are rumoured or speculated to be involved in abuse, who have not been convicted of a criminal offence and/or whose name is not in the public domain in the context of child abuse. That is in the letter from the Treasury Solicitor so the reasoning has been provided.

[Ian C. Lucas]

I do not accept for one moment that those principles apply to the name Peter Morrison. I do not think that any reasonable person could reach that conclusion. That name is in the public domain and it is in the report. I cannot understand why that name has been redacted. The redaction of that one name has had a massive impact on the public confidence in the whole report.

[Guto Bebb]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying but I have attempted to provide an explanation as to why the redactions have been as they have been.

I need to touch on a few other issues. I do not think there is any denial of the inadequate nature of the records management, which is a point that was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). It is acknowledged that the records management has been poor. It was not to anybody’s satisfaction and it is fair to say that lessons have been learned by the Wales Office, and I presume that the Welsh Assembly will take some of the report’s advice on records retention very seriously. However, it is fair to state that Lady Justice Macur is clear that she received

“the majority of, if not all, relevant documentation”

and that she is

“confident in the conclusions I reach in this Report in light of numerous, varied and cumulative sources of information available”.

Again, that is not the Government’s line. That is a comment from Lady Macur regarding the lack of record-keeping or the problematic element of the record-keeping.

An important point is contained in paragraph 2.6 of the report, in which Lady Macur states quite clearly that 523 boxes of files were received, some 400 of which originated from the Wales Office. Although that is unsatisfactory compared with what we would expect from a Government Department, I stress the fact that Lady Macur does not believe that her conclusions would have been different if she had received more information than that which was provided.

We have touched on establishment names only very quickly. I have tried to explain why redactions have happened, and we are more than happy to respond to any further questions from hon. Members who believe that there is an issue there.

The other point that I would like to touch upon just before I finish is that Lady Justice Macur adds, for the sake of clarity,

“At no time have Ministers or their officials attempted to influence me in the conduct of the review or the conclusions I have drawn.”

There is a view here that there is a lack of transparency and clarity but, on every aspect, we have tried to offer an explanation and even Lady Justice Macur has said that she was not subject to any undue pressure.

I do not think I will have time to respond to the question from the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) about the Welsh language or to the question from the hon. Member for Clwyd South about the Goddard inquiry, but I will write to both Members.

The debate has been difficult and there are lessons to be learned. We will write to the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and respond to any further questions. The Macur report was certainly worth doing and it has been of value.

Welsh Affairs

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

You just got the nine minute bar in before I rose to speak, Madam Deputy Speaker, which is probably a good thing. This debate is close to my heart. I have always thought we should have a debate in the Chamber as near as possible to 1 March. I always think of it as a St David’s day debate, and that tends to lead me to take a non-adversarial approach.

I opened the debate last year, as the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) did this year. In preparation, I remember looking back through Hansard to see who had spoken in similar debates. I was rather hoping that my favourite British politician of all time, David Lloyd George—his statue rightly stands outside the door to the Chamber—had opened a similar debate, but he had not. He was a remarkable politician. A left-wing, radical Welsh speaker from Criccieth in north Wales whom nobody had ever heard of until he came here, he effectively led the Conservative party for six years in this place. Only a Welshman could pull off a trick like that, and he did. It was his daughter, Megan Lloyd George, who opened the first St David’s day debate in 1944; this debate does not have a long history. In her speech she focused mainly on two issues: the dire situation of the farming industry, particularly the dairy industry, and the way in which mid-Wales is ignored. Over the last 70 years, not an awful lot has changed. Welsh dairy farming is in seriously dire straits, and mid-Wales continues to be ignored.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Is it not the case that for a short period of time, mid-Wales was given some support by the Development Board for Rural Wales, which did a fantastic job for the locality?

[Glyn Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend for offering me the opportunity for some degree of self-congratulation, but I had probably better not take it.

I particularly enjoyed one comment from Megan Lloyd George’s speech, which you may enjoy as well, Madam Deputy Speaker:

“No Englishman”—

I think she meant English women as well, but in those days women were not included as they are today—

“can understand the Welsh. However much he may try, and however sympathetic he may feel, he cannot get inside the skin and bones of a Welshman unless he be born again.”—[Official Report, 17 October 1944; Vol. 403, c. 2237.]

That explains quite a lot.

I am supportive of making St David’s day a national holiday, and I support the efforts of the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who is sponsoring a private Member’s Bill under which that decision would be devolved to the National Assembly for Wales. When I was a National Assembly Member, I declared 1 March to be a bank holiday in my office, and the staff were always told that they need not come in to work. If we are not able to agree a bank holiday, I could certainly do the same again.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), and it was quite a surprise to hear such a consensual speech from him, which leaves me in the position of carrying on in the tradition of this debate and not being too aggressive in the way I behave.

I also thank the hon. Member for Newport West for his comments about my predecessor, Lord Wyn Roberts of Conwy, which I think were appreciated by all Members and I know will be appreciated by my constituents and Lord Roberts’s family. His contribution was indeed significant. My right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) mentioned the A55, and we should not forget that in addition to the work that Wyn Roberts did for the Welsh language, he was the prime mover for the development of the A55 from Chester all the way to Holyhead. It is remarkable that in his maiden speech of 1970, he stated that his ambition as an MP was to ensure that a general hospital was built in Bangor and a dual carriageway was built from Chester to Holyhead. It is quite an achievement for any Member of Parliament to deliver both the promises that he made in his maiden speech, but Wyn delivered so much more.

Sometimes, in a debate such as this, a Member can feel that, occasionally, he or she can make a difference through membership of a Select Committee. We have heard about investment in the Halton curve railway line to provide better connectivity between north Wales and Liverpool, and I agree that that investment is essential to the economy of north Wales. I remember sitting in the Welsh Affairs Committee back in 2011 when we called for that investment. It is good to know that the work that we do in Select Committees occasionally results in changes.

I can paint an upbeat picture of the current economic situation in Wales. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock)—whom I congratulate on securing the debate—spoke of some of the concerns of his constituents, and I am sure that all Members sympathise with them, because what is happening to the steel industry is indeed a matter of grave concern. However, the Government should be proud of the fact that, since 2010—under the coalition and, subsequently, under a majority Conservative Government—we have seen a significant improvement in employment in Wales, and a significant decrease in unemployment. I think that we should be genuinely pleased about the strides that we are making.

I also think that, in the context of a St David’s day debate, it is crucial to emphasise that when the Governments in Westminster and Cardiff work together, we see better results. That co-operation, that willingness to work together, often results in a better performance on the part of the Welsh economy. I am in a staggering position, in that I have only received really bad news, from an economic perspective, on two occasions since my election. One example was the recent tragic fire at Llandudno Junction, which caused 50 people to lose their positions at Express Linen Services. I find it remarkable that, although I have been a Member of Parliament for nearly six years, that is one of the few examples of job losses that I can remember. The story in Aberconwy is of a halving of unemployment since 2010. More and more people are in employment, and when I talk to businessmen, they are very positive about the future. I think we should acknowledge the successes that been achieved as a result of co-operation, with successive Secretaries of State trying their best to work with the Welsh Government.

I think that the present Secretary of State has made the right decision in “pausing” the new Wales Bill, because it is unlikely that there will be any willingness to agree on a way forward between now and the Welsh Assembly elections. That was a mature thing to do. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), who is no longer in the Chamber, should reflect on the fact that it is a brave politician who is willing to pause, and to say that he will look at the evidence and come back with something better. What we want for Wales is a settlement for the long term. Let us be honest: we are building on a devolution settlement that was not about Wales, but all about the Labour party. We are slowly trying to make the settlement more effective and constructive, and I believe that taking time to secure a proper deal is necessary and correct.

The second big issue facing Wales this year is the European referendum on 23 June. I have a long track record as a Eurosceptic. I certainly experienced some difficulties in a former life as a result of my membership of Business for Sterling, a campaign which launched a great political effort to ensure that we did not join the single currency—and no one in the House today would say that we should have joined it. That campaign was correct; we made the right call. Our slogan was simple: “Europe yes, euro no”. Europe is not perfect, but I think that it gives us more than we have to give it, and that we benefit from our membership.

When we are talking about the north Wales economy, it is sobering to reflect that, just last week, the largest company in north Wales, Airbus, stated clearly that it considered membership of the European Union to be important. Moreover, the largest potential investor in north Wales, Horizon Nuclear Power in Anglesey—which is developing what may be the first new-generation nuclear power station, if the hon. Member for Newport West is correct—has also expressed the clear view that it is important for us to remain in the EU.

We should also reflect on the small businesses that benefit from our membership of the European Union. I would like to highlight an example in my constituency. A company called Zip World, run by Sean Taylor, did not exist in 2011. I remember Sean coming to see me and telling me that he was going to set up some zip wires. As someone who is scared of heights, I was not particularly interested, but I can tell the House that that company now employs 240 people from my constituency and those of the hon. Members for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts). Sean has created 240 jobs from scratch in rural Snowdonia, and that is a huge contribution to our economic wellbeing. Even more importantly—my constituency predecessor, Wyn Roberts, would be proud of this fact—70% of those workers are local Welsh speakers. That company makes a huge contribution to keeping those people in their communities, and it was seed-funded by European money.

I am not going to be quite as reasonable as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) on the issue of European grant funding. Wales is a net beneficiary, and it is clear that my constituency of Aberconwy, which is in west Wales and the valleys, is a significant net beneficiary. The figures that I have recently obtained from the local authority, Conwy County Borough Council, show that well over 900 jobs have been created in 240 new ventures as a direct result of the European grant funding of small businesses over the past five years.

Is the European grant spent well in Wales? I do not think so. We could do much better. In a speech at the National Eisteddfod in Denbighshire in 2013, I highlighted the failures of the way in which we spent that European money in Wales, but I started my speech by saying that those failures were a “made in Wales” problem, not a European problem. The problem is the way in which we have used the money in Wales. When we claim that there is waste in the European funding that is allocated on a regional basis, it is important that we highlight where the problem lies. I would argue that the Welsh Government’s lack of willingness to embrace the private sector is more of an issue in regard to the use of European funding than any decision taken in Brussels.

Also on the subject of European grant funding, there has been a fantastic achievement by the Wales Office and the Secretary of State for Wales in at long last establishing the funding floor. We have been asking for that for a very long time. However, I would ask our leader in the Assembly to consider carefully whether he genuinely believes that, with the Barnett floor in place, there would be additional money to make up for the current shortfall if we lost European funding to areas such as mine. I very much question that.

Looking at the European issue from a local perspective, and taking into account agriculture, regional development funding and, more importantly, the trade deals that allow companies such as Airbus and Horizon to invest in north Wales, I believe that despite all the European Union’s flaws, Wales will be stronger in the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I, too, thank the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) for spearheading our attempts to secure this debate. It has given hon. Members from across the country a welcome opportunity to debate a rich variety of issues.

I commend the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), who is no longer in his place, for his glowing tribute to David Lloyd George and Lady Megan Lloyd George. Lady Megan Lloyd George strayed a little in later life and became the Labour MP for Carmarthen. The hon. Gentleman failed to mention the word “Liberal”, but for 54 years, David Lloyd George was a Liberal in this House, as was Megan Lloyd George for 22 years. Perhaps none of us aspires to 54 years in the House, but Lloyd George managed it. He is a great hero of mine as well as of the hon. Gentleman’s.

I want to raise a range of issues. I do not have the geographical organisation of the hon. Member for Gower (Byron Davies), who gave us a tour de force around Wales. I will pick randomly on issues that affect my constituency, but which I believe are pertinent to other constituencies across the country.

I believe that the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) will relate to one issue that cropped up earlier today, because he has done a great deal of work on the mis-selling of interest rate swap products and led our campaign on the matter. I have done a little work on that as well, and I have tried to represent the interests of my farming community. I am concerned about a letter that I saw this morning from a bank to one of my constituents. I had no hesitation in referring my constituent—a farmer, who has worked hard and continues to do so, and who wants to develop his business—to the Financial Ombudsman Service to attempt to get some redress and independent adjudication. The bank wrote:

“If the FOS agrees with us, they will not have our permission”—

so says the bank—

“to consider your complaint and so will only be able to do so in very limited circumstances. If you do not refer your complaint to the FOS within six months, the FOS will not have our permission”.

That is the bank talking, not the independent adjudicator, the ombudsman. I will not go into the specifics of the case, but it is a concerning state of affairs when the banks regard the ombudsman in such a way, and when my constituent is treated with such contempt.

Transport has been a big theme of the debate. I want to raise the issue of physical connectivity. If the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) has been, to use her words, “banging on” about the Severn bridge tolls for a long time, I have been talking about the Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury railway for a long time. There have been great advances, and I pay tribute to the Assembly Government for instigating an hourly service and investing in a new signalling system. I very much welcome the fact that Welsh Ministers are likely to be the franchising authority for Wales and the borders by 2017. Negotiations are taking place between the Government in Wales and the Department for Transport. Concerns have, however, been expressed about the remapping of services in the franchise. The Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth Rail Passenger Association is very concerned about consideration being given to splitting the current Cambrian coast and Aberystwyth to Birmingham service, meaning that all trains will terminate in Shrewsbury, rather than going all the way through to the west midlands. I understand the logic of a neat franchise boundary, but that will have an impact on constituents.

We have spent a long time promoting the tourism sector in west Wales and building links between Aberystwyth and west Wales and Birmingham International airport. During the previous Parliament, the Welsh Affairs Committee looked at the direct route through to the airport. It is now a great success, with 50% more trains through to Aberystwyth and a 40% increase in the number of passengers using the service. I hope that the Wales Office will, if it has not already done so, become engaged in those discussions, and at the very least voice the concerns that some of us have about the need for direct services from the midlands to west Wales.

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Williams]

I will give way briefly, because I am conscious of the time.

[Guto Bebb]

Aberystwyth University is important to the economy of mid-Wales. Such connectivity is important to the university in attracting students from Wales and from outside Wales.

[Mr Williams]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. I know he has a potential interest in Aberystwyth University, and I commend it unreservedly to the Bebb family. Whether they come by road or on the train, the issue is important in developing the university.

I commend to the House early-day motion 1073 on the proposed closure and franchising of Crown post offices. The Under-Secretary of State for Wales will be interested in the one in his constituency of Vale of Glamorgan. Both Governments rightly talk about the vibrancy of the high street, and few of us would doubt the economic benefits that Post Office Ltd brings to our communities, so there is an inconsistency in franchising post offices, such as mine in Aberystwyth, out of the high street and into some backwater or into the back corner of a retailer.

There is also the effect on staff. The hard-working staff in Aberystwyth Crown post office were given the choice of redundancy, redeployment to the nearest Crown post office—in our case, that is the one in Port Talbot—or possibly transferring to employment by the retailer concerned, with wages and work conditions that were far from conducive to such a move. I urge Ministers in the Wales Office to look at those issues and to intervene with Ministers from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to encourage them to protect such valued businesses on the high street in our communities.

Not only post offices but banks have been leaving the high street. There have been bank closures in rural areas. In my constituency, banks in Aberaeron, Llandysul, New Quay and Tregaron have left the community. One reason why banks leave is that, as they say, so much bank business is now undertaken via internet banking.

I make no apology for talking again about broadband provision and mobile coverage in my constituency. The Under-Secretary of State was very kind to me, or I think he was, when he told me during last week’s Welsh questions that I was persistent. I am persistent, but I am increasingly frustrated, as are many of my constituents. We still have significant problems in rural parts of Wales; this applies not only in rural parts, but I am standing up for a rural area. We fall into the bottom 10% of seats represented in the House for average download speeds and superfast availability. Since Christmas, my constituency office has already had 100 concerned constituents from different parts of Ceredigion coming to us. We sit 639th out of 650 constituencies across the UK for broadband provision, which is bad. There has been some progress and there have been some advances, but, quite frankly, not enough for areas such as ours.

If broadband provision is bad, I must say that the Government’s mobile infrastructure project is far worse. Arqiva, their agents, has identified 24 sites across the Ceredigion constituency for new masts to alleviate the problem of “not spots” and lack of mobile reception. It spoke to landowners, the county council and community councils. It all sounded so impressive at the start:

“A publicly funded project to provide mobile phone coverage by all four Mobile Network Operators in areas that have none at present.”

The scheme ends at the end of this month. We were promised 24 masts; three masts will be achieved, one of which was already there. That mast was built by the excellent Ger-y-Gors community project, under the leadership of Duncan Taylor of Pontrhydfendigaid. One of them was a £60,000 makeover of a mast and just one other mast was built. Nationwide across the United Kingdom, 600 masts were identified, but by the end of March only about 50 will have been built.

This issue is not just about domestic households. We have talked a lot about building our economy and the advances that have been made. Surely the most basic infrastructure in areas such as mine is broadband and basic mobile coverage. My constituency is as vibrant, innovative, creative and entrepreneurial as anywhere else, but it is being denied the most basic infrastructure. That must be addressed by both the UK and the Welsh Governments. If funds have been available to the Assembly Government, they need to publicise them more and make them more available, and there need to be additional resources for rural areas such as mine.

Finally—I will not go beyond the 46 seconds I have left—it came as no great surprise to me that Ceredigion was listed in The Sunday Times as the most pro-European Union constituency in Britain, according to YouGov. That has a huge amount to do with our excellent universities and the collaborative work they are doing with those on the continent. It has a huge amount to do with the fact that we have qualified for and used money from convergence funding over the last few years. That is for good reason, because there are significant pockets of deprivation in the constituency. It also has a lot to do with farmers, who are concerned about the blank sheet of paper being offered to them by the out campaigns and UKIP. I look forward to a massive yes vote in Ceredigion on 23 June, even if I still have some concerns about the date.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I will start by talking about the European Union, as many Members have during the debate. I will vote yes for a number of reasons. In a previous life I was an international historian in the international politics department at Aberystwyth, a world-renowned department in our country. It was set up in the aftermath of the first world war, following a generous donation of £20,000 by the great industrialist David Davies Llandinam to honour the dead and maimed students of the university. Davies was motivated—I will quote the university’s website, because I could not put it better myself—

“by a global vision, forged in the fires of war, aimed at repairing the shattered family of nations and, more ambitiously, to redeem the claims of men and women in a great global commonwealth”.

My academic speciality was both world wars and the cold war. No one should ever question the vital role played by greater economic co-operation on the continent, and by the European Union, in forging lasting security, prosperity and peace.

I will vote to remain also because Wales is a net beneficiary of EU support, to the tune of £4 billion by 2020 if match funding is added. To its credit, the EU has redistributive mechanisms whereby resources and investment are aimed at the poorest geographical areas—mechanisms sadly lacking in the UK, which I suggest is a matter of shame for Unionists. I have yet to see a contingency plan from the UK for what would happen if they oversaw a calamitous exit from the EU. In contrast to the EU’s mechanisms, the UK fails to allocate spending based on need and instead ploughs its infrastructure investment into already vastly wealthy areas at the expense of those desperately in need of it.

UK membership of the EU has also played an important part in driving social justice, be it in protecting people from discrimination based on age, sex, race, religion or disability, in maternity and parental leave entitlements, or in the right to paid holidays and working hours limited to 48 hours a week.

As a net exporter, the Welsh economy benefits hugely from the single market and its 500 million consumers. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) gave an important statistic about the importance of export trade to the Welsh economy.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is making a passionate case for Wales remaining in the European Union. However, can he reconcile that with the fact that his party held street stalls in my constituency to argue that the European Union, in a trade deal with America, would sell our NHS? That is hardly a case for staying in.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I was not going to mention the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, but the hon. Gentleman has led me to it. He knows that there are genuine concerns about how TTIP could impact on public services, and about the privatisation of public services. That is one of my concerns about the European Union—I am not an unconditional supporter because it has fostered those liberalising policies that successive Westminster Governments have introduced for our public services. The fear is that TTIP could be a Trojan horse for promoting those liberalising polices even further, especially in public services. That is why I believe that the Welsh Government should have a veto on whether the UK Government sign up to TTIP. I am also somewhat sceptical about the European Union because of its treatment of the Greek people in their hour of need recently.

Although I will vote to remain, I believe that the Prime Minister’s current tactics are dangerous and ill judged. Project Fear 2, and the use of all the assets of the state to ramp up risk and anxiety, may prove to be a short-term success in securing a vote to remain in June. However, a gaping wound will be created when people feel that they have been cheated and bullied. As we see in Scotland following Project Fear 1, the battle might be won from a Unionist perspective, but ultimately the war will be lost. If the UK Government’s position is to settle the European question, they need to fight a positive campaign, and as I have outlined, there are numerous things that they could say.

I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to delay the introduction of the Wales Bill following pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft measure. I am pleased that the Secretary of State seems to have agreed to remove the necessity tests from the Bill. I hope that he has taken note of the excellent work in the Cardiff University/University College London report, which stresses that the model itself makes the necessity tests unworkable, rather than the choice of words, “necessary” or otherwise.

I also welcome the fact that the Secretary of State has agreed to shorten the list of reservations significantly. However, as always, the proof of the pudding will be in the detail of the Bill when it is published. He will know from the pre-legislative scrutiny that two reservations in particular make the Bill unworkable—the reservations of the criminal law and private law mechanisms. While I am encouraged by his promise to shorten the list, his reluctance to accept the evidence on the need for a distinct jurisdiction leads me to believe that he will not remove criminal law and private law from the list.

Indeed, the Welsh Affairs Committee, which has a Tory majority and is chaired by one of the most prominent anti-devolution MPs, accepted that creating a distinct legal jurisdiction would

“provide a solution to issues associated with the reservation of civil and criminal law and necessity clauses.”

When redrafting the Bill, and the list of reservations in particular, the Secretary of State should ensure that each and every reservation is individually justified. I believe that the Secretary of State is serious about creating a long-lasting devolution settlement and I share his ambition, but unless he fights against his devo-sceptic fringes, he will just be yet another Secretary of State for Wales who creates yet another failed devolution settlement.

The context of the rewriting of the Bill has also been changed by the decision to cut more than a quarter of Welsh MPs. If the UK Government want to make those cuts to Wales’s representation, they must give the National Assembly the same powers as the Scottish Parliament—the number of Scottish MPs was cut following transfer of powers. That means full transfer of responsibility over energy and the Crown Estate, full income tax powers, transfer of policing and criminal justice, the legal system, transport, air passenger duty, and the rest of the provisions in the Scotland Act. The Government cannot expect those responsibilities to remain with the UK Government and Westminster with only 29 Welsh MPs. That would create a gaping democratic deficit.

I want to turn my attention to one economic project in Wales about which I have not had the opportunity to comment in any great detail to date—the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. Despite Wales being one of the most advantageous locations in Europe for renewable energy, just 10.1% of our electricity is generated from renewable sources. That compares with 32% in Scotland and 14.9% for the UK as a whole. Despite Wales being home to the second highest tidal range in the world, and 1,200 km of coastline, we are lagging behind on tidal technology. I understand concerns about the proposed financing model. Proponents of the contract for difference strike price model argue that the Swansea lagoon is nowhere near as big as the planned Cardiff and Colwyn bay lagoons, and that therefore the strike price on a per megawatt basis seems high. However, it must be considered as a long-term investment that will eventually deliver multiple lagoons across the UK.

Funding green energy through a CFD effectively passes the cost of upfront investment on to the consumer, who inevitably will see their bills go up. If I were in the shoes of the Secretary of State, I would make the case that the Treasury should invest in the project by bringing it on to the books directly, as happens for transport infrastructure such as HS2 in England. Raising money on the bond markets has never been cheaper, with 50-year bonds at a negative rate and 10-year bonds at less than 1.5%. Those rates are available only to the Government and not the private sector. Using an old-school financing method—direct public investment—as opposed to an ultimately far more costly financing scheme such as CFD, will be far cheaper in the end for the public, and the UK Government should be honest with the people of Wales about that.

The Treasury will be aware of my early-day motion tabled earlier this week, which calls for a specific Welsh public sector pooled pension fund. Instead of letting the pension assets of Welsh public sector workers be pillaged by a super pooled asset fund based in England, why is the Wales Office not ensuring that Welsh assets are pooled at a Welsh level to invest in Welsh infrastructure such as the lagoon? I recognise, however, that that model would require a CFD. Confidence is the magic trick in any economic policy, and moving forward quickly on the proposed lagoon will be a massive confidence boost for the south and west of our country, stimulating further economic investment and growth.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman raises this issue persistently. As a result of representations from him and others, I met Openreach earlier this week, as well as Broadband Delivery UK. I have plans to meet the mobile operators shortly to discuss what more can be done to improve the mobile infrastructure. With the 4G auction, at least 95% coverage will be gained in Wales. That contrasts significantly with the 3G auction and the low percentage that Wales was left with last time.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating my constituent, Mr Sean Taylor, on the further expansion of his company, Zip World? In four years this company has gone from no staff to 220 staff, revitalising the economy of rural north-west Wales, to the benefit of employment and diversification of the local economy.

[Alun Cairns]

Many Members will appreciate the difficulties that zip wires can present, but I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who is a true champion of zip wires and the success and diversification that they bring not only to his own constituency, but to Arfon. We are keen to see the further support and diversification of that business in his area.

Road and Rail Infrastructure (North Wales)

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to raise an issue that I believe is critical to the future economic development of north Wales and the wider region.

Better road and rail infrastructure can offer better access to training and employment opportunities further afield and better access to markets for businesses. It has the ability to attract development to the area and improve the success of companies located in the vicinity. In addition to general increased economic productivity and competitiveness, there are specific advantages that it might bring to the region: more tourism; better access for the public to local and regional services; reduced congestion and therefore safer roads and quicker response times for emergency vehicles; improved recruitment where there are current job shortages; better access to international gateways; increased access to future planned nuclear and green energy developments in the region which could help the area to gain national or even international recognition and expertise in these fields; and social benefits and a better quality of life.

The key railway line in north Wales is the Crewe to Holyhead branch of the west coast main line. We still have Victorian signalling systems, the line caters only for diesel trains, and there are speed restrictions. Parts of the line are the slowest in the UK. It offers relatively limited direct services to airports and major cities. One can travel from my constituency to London in two and a half hours, and I am aware of businesses that are located in the constituency partly because of the existing services. Rail is managed by Network Rail and as such is not devolved.

On road infrastructure, the A55 or north Wales expressway, which is less well known as the Euroroute E22, is our main trunk road. This runs east to west from the M53 at Chester through to Holyhead. Much of the A55 is on what is thought to have been the route of a Roman road, but the road we know today was developed from the 1930s onwards, the majority of it during the 1980s. The Bodelwyddan bypass completed its course across my constituency in 1986. From my constituency there is a half-hour journey along the A55 to the motorway network, and roughly a one-hour journey to the airports of Liverpool and Manchester, but congestion and accidents on the road have increased, as the Daily Post, the region’s newspaper, highlighted on Monday.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He mentioned the A55, which is part of a Euroroute. Is he aware that the only two roundabouts on any Euroroute are to be found in my constituency? Only the other day I received an email from a constituent who had taken an hour to get from Llandudno to Llanfairfechan, a journey of only 14 miles. It is not so much an expressway as a barrier to growth in my constituency and the rest of north-west Wales.

[Dr Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a good point.

There are also poor links from the A55 to the north of my constituency, parts of which have some unemployment hotspots. The existing infrastructure supports numerous businesses, including those at St Asaph business park, but they are often under pressure to move east, closer to the UK’s motorway network. Road infrastructure is devolved in Wales, so joint working is critical when seeking to enhance key east-west routes.

There is a fundamental interdependence between north Wales and the north-west of England. In fact, the economies are inextricably linked, and I suggest that the north Wales economy complements that of the north-west, rather than competing against it. There are 50,000 cross-border commutes every day, which equates to around l million per month. One million people of working age live on either side of the border, and 8 million live across the wider area. To illustrate the size of this combined economy, there is a £31 billion economy along the M56 and A55 corridor, expanding to £77 billion if we include Liverpool, Cheshire and Warrington, and £140 billion with the Manchester city region. In fact, the overall region contributes 17% of UK manufacturing output and provides 30% of jobs locally.

North Wales clearly has a key opportunity to be part of the northern powerhouse and to link to HS2. Doing so would be an important way to address deprivation and unemployment in my part of the world. Parts of north Wales have an untapped workforce availability, and therefore an associated cost to the taxpayer of out-of-work benefits. I believe that better transport links would help the strategic and united growth of the north Wales and north-west region, despite political barriers that have developed post-devolution, and help regenerate the whole area. I reiterate that the transport routes in north Wales also form key trans-European links to Ireland, which is an important factor for economic growth.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) for securing the debate. I pay tribute to him not only for the way in which he presented his case, but for wasting absolutely no time in lobbying the Department for Transport and the Wales Office on arriving in this place. Within two days of arriving, he wanted a meeting with the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), and me to make his case. I pay tribute to him for the effort that he has put into that case in the short time that he has been in the House.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss how 21st-century transport infrastructure can help north Wales to achieve its potential and place the region at the heart of the northern powerhouse. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) and for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) for their interventions. I will try to reflect on their points a little later if time allows.

Since 2010, we have delivered the largest rail investment strategy this country has seen since Victorian times. Both north and south Wales are benefiting significantly from the strategy. Understandably, much attention has focused on our commitments in south Wales, such as the electrification of the great western main line, while the additional funding made available to the Welsh Government for the valley and the Vale of Glamorgan lines has been debated at large. However, north Wales rail infrastructure has also seen its share of investment during the past five years, with the upgrading of the signalling, which my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd mentioned, the improvement of the Halton curve—I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West who worked directly on securing that investment—and the plans and studies currently being undertaken by the Welsh Government for the Wrexham to Bidston line. I will return to some of those subjects a bit later.

North Wales is one of the most dynamic parts of the UK. Its economy has grown by 13.2% since 2010. It is right to highlight that Wales is the fastest growing part of the United Kingdom, but it is also worth underlining that north Wales is growing much faster than the average for Wales. There are currently few better places to invest than north Wales. The north-east Wales integrated transport taskforce has estimated that the north Wales economy is worth approximately £10.4 billion a year, and it is growing. The latest figures show that the north Wales’s economy grew by 3.1%, against an average of 2.5% for the UK.

I am proud of this Government’s record in helping to support the economy right across Wales, and north Wales is no exception, but we need to build on that momentum, which is why the Government have put in place our productivity plan “Fixing the foundations”. In that context, we are determined to ensure that the need for transport infrastructure in north Wales is recognised and that such infrastructure is fit for such a growing economy. There is a need for collaborative investment in developing infrastructure capable of sustaining the long-term economic growth that we are now seeing.

North Wales has for some time been calling for better transport links. I have already paid tribute to some of my hon. Friends who have contributed, but I want to underline the support given by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd in working with the Wales Office to seek a plan for making an effective bid for control period 6. My hon. Friend mentioned that point and I will return to it later. Such lobbying has been heard loud and clear, as it was when I met businesses in Aberconwy and elsewhere in north Wales in August. When I spoke at the CBI north Wales dinner last month, businesses underlined the need for such investment.

Having first-class, modern transport infrastructure will not only support business growth; it will open opportunity, encourage new investment and help people to access the job opportunities, apprenticeships and training that can transform the lives of families and the fortunes of communities. We are already working to deliver that across north Wales.

We have taken steps to improve cross-border links between north Wales and northern parts of the UK. Last year, £10 million was committed to the Halton curve. I have mentioned the role of my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West in that. That project is reinstating a direct rail link between north Wales and Liverpool. That has been welcomed widely by businesses and the passenger community alike. It is part of our plan to deliver a stronger, more prosperous northern powerhouse, in which north Wales is a key part.

This opportunity must be seized. I want to see joint working between north Wales, the Welsh Government, local enterprise partnerships and local authorities on both sides of the border. The Mersey Dee Alliance also has a role to play, as do the train operators. We need to use the investment in the Halton curve to deliver the optimal service pattern to transform the opportunities that I have mentioned.

We are committed to line speed improvements through the north Wales re-signalling programme. That is a significant scheme that should not be underestimated. It is expected to deliver journey time savings of up to eight minutes. That improvement will lay the foundations for further modernisation and electrification of the north Wales main line.

Likewise, the Wrexham to Bidston line is a key line for supporting enterprise and employment on Deeside. I am pleased that the Welsh Government are considering the economic benefits of investing in the line and a number of other options in north Wales. I look forward to working with them and the Department for Transport on bringing about satisfactory and positive outcomes.

It is worth recognising that HS2 will bring significant benefits to north Wales. It will reduce journey times to Crewe and create opportunities for other links because of the extra capacity that it will provide. HS2 is vital in providing extra capacity on the national rail network, which is straining under the weight of the huge growth in passenger numbers over the past 10 years.

Clearly, modernisation of the north Wales main line would be a significant boost to the region’s transport links and maximise the benefits to be gained from the planned high-speed line between London and Crewe. We must ensure that everyone is aware of the opportunities that that creates for north Wales and the importance of the cross-border infrastructure that links in to other activity on the rail network.

It is vital that we prepare the most robust business case possible that identifies the strongest possible cost-benefit ratio of upgrading the line. I will return to the cost-benefit ratio. We have to think in terms of outcomes and identify the key building blocks that will pave the way to electrification. Now is the time to influence control period 6, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd referred. This is a window of opportunity to identify the means by which tangible benefits to the network will be brought about to improve the passenger experience.

We must find answers to questions such as how we can provide more frequent services, how we can cut journey times across the network, and how we can improve the signalling and modernise the line. I am keen that we learn from other bids to the Department for Transport and the Treasury that have been successful. One such example, “Norwich in 90”, focused on the outcome of cutting journey times between London and Norwich, rather than on any particular technology. The bidders identified what they wanted to achieve, then found the best way of achieving it. We must focus our attention on the cost-benefit ratio, which is currently low compared with other projects. That is an objective, mathematical formula, and we need to strengthen the case around it.

The north of England electrification taskforce’s report “Northern Sparks” was an interesting addition to the debate because it examined for the first time the economic benefits of modernising rail infrastructure. The Welsh Government and north Wales authorities were involved throughout the preparation of the report, alongside interested parties from across the north and across political divides. That collaborative approach ensured a clear understanding about the interaction of services from north England and into Wales. We need an effective collaboration on modernising rail infrastructure in north Wales.

Politicians from Westminster and Cardiff Bay should continue to work together with business leaders and councils to make the case for transport infrastructure investment. We need a clear set of priorities, a clear plan of action, and clear funding commitments that focus on that cost-benefit ratio while also highlighting the economic opportunities that will be released.

[Guto Bebb]

Does the Minister agree that the upgrading of the north Wales main line is crucial to the development of the proposed nuclear power station in Anglesey? We need to move skilled workers from all parts of north Wales to the opportunities that will exist at that development.

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an important point and highlights the private sector’s role in strengthening the case—particularly the economic case—for such upgrades. That is an excellent example.

Together with my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd, I am grateful to the North Wales Economic Ambition Board for organising the summit next month—yet another example of the board’s commitment to promoting a collaborative, cross-party approach to achieving economic success in north Wales. I pay tribute to the tireless work of Councillor Dilwyn Roberts on behalf of the people of north Wales. I am also grateful to Edwina Hart, a Minister in the Welsh Government, for the approach that she has taken, which is another example of what can be achieved on a joint basis. The North Wales Economic Ambition Board will be key in making that case, along with other organisations such as the Mersey Dee Alliance, and the summit next month will help us to identify what case to make to the Department for Transport and the Treasury.

The northern powerhouse is a key priority for this Government. The Chancellor has said how important north Wales is to that dynamic, and a key rail and road infrastructure plan is vital to that northern powerhouse and to north Wales.

Question put and agreed to.

Media Plurality (Wales)

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered media plurality in Wales.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Chope. I am pleased to be able to bring this issue to the attention of the House. The issue of media plurality in Wales is one of growing concern for many in a Welsh context, mainly because we have undoubtedly reached a position where Wales is more clearly defined as an administrative and political entity than possibly at any time in its history, and yet there is a question as to whether its administrative and political distinctiveness is recognised in public discourse in the Welsh media.

The purpose of the debate is to highlight concerns about issues relating to the media in Wales and the way in which we are served by the media in Wales. I also want to ask the Minister a few questions. I am sure he will be able to respond to my points either in full today or in due course. To give the Minister an opportunity to have a think while I speak, I will list the main areas that I wish to talk about in this debate. First, as I have said, we need to recognise the changed political and administrative situation in Wales. We are undoubtedly part of the United Kingdom with a distinct Government and administrative system, and that needs to be recognised. Indeed, the Welsh political system is increasingly being taken seriously. For example, the decision of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) to put his name forward for election to the Welsh Assembly shows that the way in which the political situation in Wales is developing affects decisions made by hon. Members in Westminster, so we need to recognise that political entity and its existence.

However, we need to ask ourselves whether our media portray that entity fully, and whether the consumption of media in Wales reflects the changed political situation that we face in Wales. Do we have sufficient discussion within the media, whether in the printed media, online, in newspapers or on television and radio? Do we have a consumption in Wales that allows for a discussion of our political discourse that contributes fully to the way in which our democracy works? There is a question as to whether we have such media in place.

Then we need to ask ourselves whether there are shortcomings in the printed media in the Welsh context. We are increasingly dependent on two daily Welsh titles that see a regular fall in sales. The question we then have to ask is whether Wales and Welsh politics are taken seriously by the UK media. We can make a contrast between the situations in Scotland and Wales, for example, so I will touch on those issues as well.

The print media in Wales are declining. I will talk about the figures, but when we see the reduction in the Western Mail and Daily Post sales figures, it is impossible to deny that. What does that decline tell us about what is expected of the Welsh media by the Welsh people? Is there a lack of interest or is it a response to what is perceived to be a declining product, with some exceptions, I am sure? If the print media situation is as bad as I am making out—I will provide statistics that imply that the situation is pretty dire—we have to ask ourselves whether that results in a dependency on the broadcast media that is far beyond what we see in many other parts of the United Kingdom. Again, I will provide statistics that show how the dependence of the Welsh public on broadcast media—television and radio—is much clearer in Wales than in the rest of the United Kingdom.

For example, more people get their news in a Welsh context from the television than in any other part of the United Kingdom. Is that a good or a bad thing? Does that lead to a dependence—an overdependence, perhaps—on the BBC? That is not an attack on the BBC, but do we want to end up in a situation in which most news is provided in Wales by one broadcaster? Granted, some of the BBC output goes out on S4C as well, but we are talking about one broadcaster, the BBC, being responsible for the two main radio stations in Wales, for the BBC news output in English and the S4C news output in Welsh. Is that a healthy situation? Is it the best use of licence payer and taxpayer funding if we end up in a situation where the BBC has almost a monopoly?

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

There is a problem in north-east Wales where the BBC output in certain parts comes either from the north-west or the midlands. The hon. Gentleman talked about overdependence on the BBC, but it could be said to be overdependence on the wrong type of BBC.

[Guto Bebb]

I am fascinated by the concept of the wrong type of BBC, but I understand what the hon. Lady says. Even in my constituency, which is significantly further west than the hon. Lady’s, we have the phenomenon of people turning their aerials towards the north-west because, apart from wind farms, there is nothing to stop signals from the north-west hitting the north Wales coast. It is a fact that people in north-west Wales pick up media from the north-west of England.

The Minister will not be surprised to hear the final point that I will touch on: the situation in relation to S4C and how it can fit into the whole media situation in Wales.

Is the political discourse a problem? I think it clearly is. Any politician knows that it is a problem, because when we knock on doors—I am sure I am not giving away any secrets—we often feel frustrated at people’s lack of understanding about the way in which they are governed. I find it very frustrating, having had a full two years of showing how clearly the Welsh NHS is failing. Some hon. Members will disagree on that point, but it is frustrating to fight a general election with people telling me on the doorstep that they are not voting for me because I am a member of the Government, and the Government are closing maternity units in north Wales. That is the type of frustration that politicians are aware of.

The question is: how can people make the right decision? How can we have an accountable Welsh Assembly if people do not even know what the Assembly is responsible for and they are not even following the discussions that lead to decisions? For example, decisions on the maternity unit in Glan Clwyd are made in Cardiff through the health board, but that accountability is missing in a Welsh context. Frankly, after 18 years of the Welsh Assembly, such lack of accountability is something that should concern all of us. If all political parties believe the Welsh Assembly is central to the way in which Wales is governed and that we should have devolution to greater or lesser extent—there are disagreements as to exactly how much—and if there is a feeling that we should have a devolved Administration who are responsible for crucial decisions in a Welsh context, we have to ask ourselves whether there is a lack of a coherent discussion of the issues relating to people in Wales in the printed media and the media in general. Clearly we have a problem, and I would argue that it is pretty much undisputed that there is a democratic deficit in the way in which public issues and affairs are discussed in a Welsh context. That issue should concern all of us on a cross-party basis. The responses might differ from party to party, but the concern should be genuine and heartfelt among all Members of this House and all people involved in politics in a Welsh context.

The problem arises to a large extent because more than 90% of the printed media read in Wales comes from London. I have nothing against London. I happily live here three to four days a week, and I would be lost without my daily morning paper and certainly my Sunday papers. I know I am in a minority in still enjoying a morning paper. Indeed, my daughter is now doing the same paper round that I used to do 30 years ago. That shows we believe in equality in our household, because she has taken over the paper round from my son. When I did the paper round, I delivered to more than 50 houses, but that has gone down to less than 20. Clearly, there is a decline that is not related to Wales alone. The key point, though, is that as 90% of the printed media sold in Wales come from London, there are clearly questions to be asked. First, why are the Welsh media declining so quickly? Secondly, why do London media not do in Wales what they do in Scotland?

We should ask serious questions about the contrast between Wales and Scotland. There are three daily national newspapers in Scotland, all of which sell more than the two papers we have in Wales. On top of that, Scotland has two regional papers with significant distribution and sales. Furthermore, no fewer than seven UK titles produce Scottish editions. It is difficult to argue that there is not a more lively debate about politics in Scotland than in Wales. I am not saying that that is all down to the failure of the media—politicians must take responsibility as well—but it is difficult to have an engaged discussion when so much of the content people read daily does not address Welsh issues.

Even if some parties present were unhappy with the Daily Mail’s campaign on the Welsh NHS last year, there was something quite refreshing about the fact that day after day for several weeks a London-based newspaper concentrated on the so-called failures of the Welsh Government. I should be clear that I am not trying to make a political point, but in my view there is no doubt that that campaign resulted in public discourse about the Welsh context, because suddenly the London papers were taking an interest in Wales. That type of discussion of Welsh matters should not be confined to one-off issues with, perhaps, a slightly partisan political agenda in the background. I happen to think that the Daily Mail was highlighting important issues of concern to us all, but I respect the fact that some people in the Cardiff Administration would respectfully disagree. I think we would all agree that if there is a perceived failing of the Welsh Government, that should be highlighted in the media read by the people of Wales. If not, we have a problem.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. What role does he see for a vibrant and powerful local press? In my constituency, the Tivy-Side Advertiser and the Cambrian News have led some very spirited and robust defences of our local health service, yet I think he would agree that, sadly, the local press is also in retreat.

[Guto Bebb]

Indeed, I was going to touch on that. It is significant that Wales has a track record of a strong regional press, although it could be argued that it has been subject to far too much centralisation of ownership. There is a vibrant local press in Wales, but I checked the figures with the Library this morning, and, as far as I am aware, not a single one of our newspapers is showing an increase in sales. Some declining sales are truly worrying. In my constituency, the North Wales Weekly News has given up on its valley edition. It still produces two editions for the coast, but sales are falling.

The Caernarfon & Denbigh Herald was immortalised in a pop song by a group called Y Cynghorwyr, who argued that it says it in the Caernarfon & Denbigh so it must be true: “Mae o’n dweud yn y Caernarfon & Denbigh, y papur sy’n dweud y gwir”. For a newspaper to be immortalised in a pop song but suddenly find its sales falling below 9,000 must be a concern for the regional press. Yes, there is a regional press that can take up the slack, and there is no doubt that, for example, the regional press in north Wales has been at the forefront of the issue when it comes to concerns about the A55 or the health service, but is it in a position to respond positively as sales fall dramatically? I suspect not.

The Institute of Welsh Affairs recently did some media monitoring and found that between 1999 and 2013 the number of journalists working in the local and national press in Wales—I will call the Daily Post and the Western Mail a national press—went from 700 to around 110 or 115. That fall is significant. In my constituency I have first-class journalists who work for both the Weekly News and the Daily Post. They might cover an issue in Llandudno in the morning and then be in another constituency covering a different issue for the Daily Post in the afternoon. They are multi-tasking in order to keep the show on the road. I am not sure whether, in the long term, that will result in the vibrant culture we need for discussion of what is going on in Wales.

There is no denying that the decline has resulted in cuts that, it could be argued, reduce the appeal of the regional press. On Sunday, I was delighted to see the Daily Post print a Sunday edition for the first time in its history. It says a lot about this debate, as the purpose of that edition, on which I warmly congratulate the Daily Post, was to celebrate Welsh sporting success after the Welsh rugby and football teams qualified. I must add that both teams qualified after losing, but that did not stop the Daily Post making a big issue of the success of our Welsh sporting heroes—good for them for doing so. I would be delighted to see the Daily Post appearing again Sunday in future. Nevertheless, that masks the real situation, because there is a decline in the regional press and in our two main daily titles in Wales, resulting in the dominance of public discourse in Wales by the broadcast media, which probably means the BBC in the form of BBC 1 and S4C news content, and Radio Cymru on Radio Wales.

Before I turn to the dominance of the BBC, it is worth mentioning people’s expectations and hopes for online media as an alternative. There is no doubt that the Daily Post and the Western Mail have dramatically increased their online content. The BBC provides a sterling service in trying to cover Wales online in both languages, but I have concerns, as well as hope. For all its faults, the Welsh Assembly has at least recognised the importance of some degree of alternative plurality in Welsh news gathering. Golwg360 is a second online news provider that has been made possible through Welsh Government funding, and I welcome it as a response to the need for diversity in online news. As a Welsh speaker, I welcome the fact that I am able to turn to the BBC and to Golwg360 and find that the content is not always the same—it is often significantly different—but if we acknowledge that there has been a market failure in the provision of plural voices in Welsh online, we should also recognise that there is an issue with online provision in English.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern about the quality of online content? I am heartily sick of reading 20 things I wanted to know—or did not want to know—about some celebrity, some aspect of our geography or whatever.

[Guto Bebb]

I tend to agree. There is always a question of quality, although when MPs are asked to provide 20 facts about themselves they seem quite happy to do so.

[Craig Williams (Cardiff North) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate and approaching it in his usual style. We have debated intervention in this declining market at length. First, does he welcome the Department for Culture, Media and Sport’s welcome efforts with Made in Cardiff and the increase in local television news? Secondly, I say unashamedly that S4C is based in Cardiff North for now, although of course there are plans for it to go elsewhere. If we look at S4C’s spending, we see that 82% goes on independent broadcasts and supporting the independent network. I commend that as a way in which the media in Wales could approach supporting the sector.

[Guto Bebb]

I agree with both my hon. Friend’s points. We should applaud the success of a local television network in the Cardiff area, but that does not address the needs of the whole of Wales—of course, that is not to decry the success of such a service in the Cardiff area. I welcome S4C’s spend in the Welsh context and how that can foster a plurality of providers in production companies and so on. The fact that we have an independent television sector in Wales is in many ways a direct result of the existence of S4C. That plurality of production companies, if not of final destinations for programmes, is something that I welcome very warmly.

I mentioned our over-dependence on television for news in a Welsh context. The figures are stark. In most of the UK, about 45% of people get their main news from television; in Wales, the figure is more than 60%. Strikingly, because commercial radio is much more successful in most of the United Kingdom than in Wales, the figures on the number of people in Wales getting their news from the radio is slightly lower than in the rest of the UK. The overall picture, however, is clear: we have a dependence on the broadcast media that is not replicated in the rest of the United Kingdom. We should be concerned about that.

Even more concerning was a study of the 2007 Welsh Assembly election. No respondents to the survey said they gained their news about the election from London-based newspapers. It is difficult to see how there can be a democratic debate if 90% of the newspapers sold in Wales are London-based and contain no coverage of the election. Some 42% of the news that people received about the 2007 Assembly election came from BBC Wales. Obviously, we should congratulate BBC Wales for getting that reach, but before the BBC gets too proud of itself I should point out that the same survey showed that 55% said that their main source of information about the campaign was the polling card, and 72% said it was political literature—so it could be argued that we beat the BBC’s reach.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Although S4C and Welsh-language broadcasting covers very Welsh issues, does my hon. Friend agree that it would be wrong to separate that from the British context? Wales is a part of Britain, and if we are going to continue to subsidise the Welsh-language channel—inevitably it will need a degree of subsidy in the future—it would be wrong for the British Government just to say, “That’s a matter for the Welsh Government. They do not need a contribution from the British Government.” It would be a mistake to isolate the Welsh language as an issue to be dealt with only in Wales and say that it has no consequence for Britain; that would extend the trends he is talking about in other forms of media.

[Guto Bebb]

I have come to this debate without all the answers, but with many questions. That question is worthy of consideration.

The S4C viewing figures, which include viewing figures from platforms available in England, show a significant following of S4C programmes from viewers based in England. The Welsh language is one of the ancient languages of the United Kingdom, and therefore it should not be looked at in isolation from things that happen on this side of the border. The viewing figures show that S4C undoubtedly provides a service for people living on the other side of Offa’s dyke. It is the same for Radio Cymru’s radio provision. People who enter competitions in the daytime often live in Wolverhampton and Liverpool, happily listening to Radio Cymru. I accept that this debate should not be a Welsh-only debate, but it is important that it does not ignore Wales completely by becoming London-centric. I am genuinely concerned about that.

The figures show our dependence on broadcast media. There is a concern—again, this is not an anti-BBC point—that our dependence on the broadcast media in a Welsh context becomes a dependence on the BBC. The provision of news in Welsh and English in Wales comes from the BBC. If somebody watches BBC news or S4C’s news, they are watching a BBC product. The same is true of Radio Cymru and Radio Wales.

I was recently talking to my wife about this issue. She said that she seldom watches the nine o’clock news on S4C because she has heard most of the content on “Post Prynhawn” on Radio Cymru at 5 pm. That is a genuine concern. If we think that the viewing figures for “Newyddion Naw” on S4C—about 25,000—are not high enough, we need to ask why. When we acknowledge that people in Wales are dependent on the broadcast media for their news, we also acknowledge that they are dependent on the BBC for that content. I wonder whether the fact that 85% of all news content in Wales is provided by one provider is healthy. That is not to say that the BBC is doing anything wrong, but do we need more plurality? If News International provided 85% of all news content in a Welsh context, I suspect that most Opposition parties would complain. The same should stand in relation to the BBC.

We are slowly starting to have a debate in a Welsh context. The Media Reform Coalition and the Institute of Welsh Affairs are starting to talk about these issues, but we need to move forward at a much faster pace. Frankly, it is not just that the provision of information and news is lacking; our democratic institutions in Wales will be undermined if we do not deal with this issue quickly.

There is no denying that S4C is an important issue for all of us who care about broadcasting in a Welsh context. For those of us who are worried about the future of the Welsh language, it is an even more important issue. Most Government Members were willing to consider the spending reductions in 2010 in the context of the spending review, the real challenges facing the Government and other institutions, and the need for them to live within their means. But we need to ask ourselves a simple question: should the future of S4C be decided solely as an add-on to the charter review process, which is being undertaken in London?

The BBC has a budget of some £3.6 billion, and the grant for S4C and the programmes provided by the BBC comes to about £90 million. In the context of a £3.6 billion budget, it is difficult to argue that the £90 million that goes to S4C will be the tail that wags the dog. My concern is that S4C will be forgotten in the charter renewal process. We need to ask ourselves seriously whether it is enough for S4C to be considered as part of the charter review process, or whether an independent review should be undertaken in relation to S4C to ask a simple question: after 33 years, what exactly is the point of a dedicated Welsh-language broadcaster in the 21st century? I think the answer would be very positive indeed, but we have not asked that question since the channel was established in 1982.

In 2010, when the changes were announced to the funding of S4C, and when the reduction to the funding of the BBC and S4C was announced, the then Minister at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport promised that there would be an independent review into the future of S4C at the same time as the charter review. I think that would be welcomed in Wales—not because S4C is more important than any other broadcast element of the Welsh media picture, but because a review would be a starting point for asking serious questions about what exactly we want from the Welsh media in a Welsh context. I would argue strongly, therefore, that the promise that was part of the 2010 settlement should be delivered. I think there is an appetite in Wales for looking creatively and constructively at how to utilise and fund S4C in the future and at how to protect what is important in delivering a service to the people of Wales.

If an independent review is instigated—one was discussed in 2010, but the details were not as forthcoming as they should have been—it is crucial that it should be freed from the issue of cost and money saving. It is important that there should be a two-year provision of financial stability while the review is undertaken, and I would argue that that provision should come from both the BBC and DCMS. I appreciate that the Minister does not represent DCMS, so will not be able to give me certainty about funding streams from another Department. However, if there is an independent review, it has to take place in the context of a stable financial situation.

[Mr Mark Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Guto Bebb]

I will give way quickly, but I am running out of time.

[Mr Williams]

I very much welcome the tone of the hon. Gentleman’s comments. I echo the need for stability, which is particularly important for the independent production sector, given the scale of some of the small enterprises. They are facing the prospect a £2.7 million cut in the central Government spending review, and possibly, if there is a 20% reduction from the BBC to S4C, a £15 million cut for S4C, which would have dire implications for the independent production sector.

[Guto Bebb]

It is difficult to escape the likelihood of real consequences. It is staggering how well S4C has coped with the funding reductions that were part of the 2010 settlement, but, given that less than 4% of the total budget goes on overheads, any further cuts will clearly be to programming, which would be a further kick to media plurality in a Welsh context. The review should not be just about S4C; it should be a starting point for an ongoing civic discussion in a Welsh context about what we want our media to provide.

I am coming to the end of my very long speech, Mr Chope; I apologise. We should be looking at the issue of the plurality of news content, which worries me as somebody who is obsessed with news and interested in current affairs—as I should be, given the job that I do. Ofcom states clearly that if our desired outcome is a plurality of media ownership, we should prevent any one media owner or voice from having too much influence on public opinion. That is certainly the situation in Wales. S4C is a recognition of market failure; it would not exist were we dependent on the market. As a free-market capitalist, I accept that. I believe in the free market, but I also believe that it does not always have all the solutions to all the problems that we face.

If S4C is to respond to the need to provide a service to Welsh speakers in a Welsh context, financial intervention through the licence fee payer, through the taxpayer, should be used for a further common good. For example, why does the deal between the BBC and S4C for 10 hours of BBC programming every week include news content? It must be easy for the BBC because it is not duplicating any services, but if we are concerned about the plurality of news content in Wales, such issues should be considered seriously in any independent review of S4C.

If such a review took place, it would also be an independent review of the media situation in the whole of Wales, because the organisations are so interlinked. If S4C could commission a new service from another provider, that would impact on the BBC, so an independent review would be a real step in the right direction in responding to the deficit in the provision of media content that allows us to discuss what is going on in Wales in a real and proper manner.

This is an important and, to a large extent, a cross-party issue. However, I fully recognise that decisions will have to be made and that my Government will have to respond to some of my points. I am not hiding from that responsibility. I hope that the Government will listen carefully. They responded positively in the past when calls were made to protect S4C’s budget. There is an opportunity here not only to respond to those who want to protect S4C, but to consider carefully how S4C fits into the media pattern in Wales and how, if we recognise a market failure, the intervention of licence fee payer and taxpayer money could deal with some of the deficiencies in media plurality in Wales. We need the opportunity to discuss matters in a Welsh context in the same way as happens in Scotland, Northern Ireland and certainly here in London.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chi Onwurah]

My hon. Friend intervened just as I was going to mention her in another context. She is quite right that a local radio network, particularly a BBC one, is an important part of media plurality, providing a local or regional insight and perspective on the news. I do not know where we would be without local coverage of our great sporting events, for example. I was grateful to her for making the point that large parts of north-east Wales cannot, in any case, receive BBC Wales, so its impact is limited and that encourages many Welsh citizens to turn to the national UK media outlets.

The fact that many Welsh people choose to consume UK media may also be a symptom of the convergence of media outlets. We cannot and do not want to stop the rise of digital and new media, and the innovation that that brings. However, as Ofcom’s Welsh advisory committee has noted:

“None of the London-based newspaper titles publishes a Welsh edition and there is almost a total absence of Welsh content in UK-wide newspapers.”

Historically, as we have heard, north and south Wales have different papers, and many Welsh people, if not the majority, take UK papers. While technology is disrupting traditional media models and creating many innovative online communities and interest groups—we have heard some of the hopes for the future in that regard—it has yet to provide a model that pays for local journalists on the ground covering events in communities and council chambers, or even the National Assembly Chamber. I speak as a champion of the internet when I say that we must recognise that the internet is not yet an alternative to independent professional journalism—certainly not yet in Wales. Ofcom’s advisory committee on Wales reported what many people have known for some time: that the situation is a cause for considerable concern and is getting worse.

Now a double whammy of cuts is coming down the track for public service broadcasters in Wales. The Chancellor’s decision to make the BBC pay for free TV licences for those over 75 has resulted in cuts to services. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport confirmed that Welsh programming would not be spared. As to the direct funding—I do not believe it is a subsidy—from DCMS for Welsh output, it has been reported in the media, although of course we do not know, that DCMS is planning for 40% cuts to its budget. In those circumstances it is highly likely that there are further cuts in the pipeline for Welsh output; but of course it is for the Minister to give us certainty about that.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is right to make the point about the decision to agree with the BBC that the licence fee should come out of its budget; but from the point of view of concern about S4C, which is a small part of the BBC’s funding stream, surely the point is that the director-general agreed without any consultation with S4C, even though there were funding implications for it. Surely if the BBC were serious about its role in protecting S4C it would at least have consulted before making an agreement.

[Chi Onwurah]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. I agree that there should have been consultation with S4C, but I would also make the observation that the Secretary of State made his decision without consulting anyone, and in direct contradiction of criticisms he made while he was the Chair of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. In a democratic country we would expect consultation on a decision as important as funding, and obviously that would include consulting S4C on its funding.

I want to finish with some questions to the Minister. I am curious about what assessment he has made of the cuts, in a situation that is already a cause for serious concern. I have asked DCMS Ministers that question about a number of areas over the years and the answer is all too often a variation on “not much”. I hope that a Wales Office Minister can do better. What is the Minister doing to improve and strengthen media plurality in Wales? What discussions has he had with the Welsh Government and DCMS on cuts to Welsh public sector broadcasters? What assessment have the Government made of the effects of cuts on those broadcasters both before and since they were made? What discussions has he had with national media organisations more broadly, in the private and public sectors, about their coverage in Wales? Does he agree that there is a crisis in Welsh media plurality, and can he point to a policy or plan to address it?

I am sure that the Minister agrees with me and hon. Members about the importance of the issue to Wales. I am leaving as much time as he could need to set out how he plans to tackle it. The challenge is a long-term one that is not likely to go away without intervention from his Department, working in partnership across Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend has a strong reputation for carrying the front page—and not only of the County Times, in which he regularly features; I remember him even making the front page of the Daily Star, which certainly brought his name to the attention of many, particularly in Wales. He rightly champions the County Times and I know the interest he shows in it, but mid-Wales is an area with a gap in local radio coverage. That is recognised and ties in with the point made by the hon. Member for Clwyd South.

[Guto Bebb]

I want to focus again on online content. It is important to recognise that the media in Wales, whether south or north, such as the BBC and Golwg 360, is doing a great job in providing content on the internet. However, having spoken to some such organisations, my concern is about their ability to generate an income from online activities; that income is not growing as fast as the decline in income from trade sales. Great work is being done, but that online provision will soon be lost unless that gap can be plugged quickly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the Minister and the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) for their responses to the debate. I suspected that the Minister would not be in a position to make any promises on the question of finance and I understand why. I appreciate his positive comments and am aware that in the ongoing negotiations within Government we have in him a strong champion for broadcasting in Wales of all types—whether online or on radio, in Welsh or in English. I thank him for his response.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered media plurality in Wales.