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Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered media plurality in Wales.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Chope. I am pleased to be able to bring this issue to the attention of the House. The issue of media plurality in Wales is one of growing concern for many in a Welsh context, mainly because we have undoubtedly reached a position where Wales is more clearly defined as an administrative and political entity than possibly at any time in its history, and yet there is a question as to whether its administrative and political distinctiveness is recognised in public discourse in the Welsh media.
The purpose of the debate is to highlight concerns about issues relating to the media in Wales and the way in which we are served by the media in Wales. I also want to ask the Minister a few questions. I am sure he will be able to respond to my points either in full today or in due course. To give the Minister an opportunity to have a think while I speak, I will list the main areas that I wish to talk about in this debate. First, as I have said, we need to recognise the changed political and administrative situation in Wales. We are undoubtedly part of the United Kingdom with a distinct Government and administrative system, and that needs to be recognised. Indeed, the Welsh political system is increasingly being taken seriously. For example, the decision of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) to put his name forward for election to the Welsh Assembly shows that the way in which the political situation in Wales is developing affects decisions made by hon. Members in Westminster, so we need to recognise that political entity and its existence.
However, we need to ask ourselves whether our media portray that entity fully, and whether the consumption of media in Wales reflects the changed political situation that we face in Wales. Do we have sufficient discussion within the media, whether in the printed media, online, in newspapers or on television and radio? Do we have a consumption in Wales that allows for a discussion of our political discourse that contributes fully to the way in which our democracy works? There is a question as to whether we have such media in place.
Then we need to ask ourselves whether there are shortcomings in the printed media in the Welsh context. We are increasingly dependent on two daily Welsh titles that see a regular fall in sales. The question we then have to ask is whether Wales and Welsh politics are taken seriously by the UK media. We can make a contrast between the situations in Scotland and Wales, for example, so I will touch on those issues as well.
The print media in Wales are declining. I will talk about the figures, but when we see the reduction in the Western Mail and Daily Post sales figures, it is impossible to deny that. What does that decline tell us about what is expected of the Welsh media by the Welsh people? Is there a lack of interest or is it a response to what is perceived to be a declining product, with some exceptions, I am sure? If the print media situation is as bad as I am making out—I will provide statistics that imply that the situation is pretty dire—we have to ask ourselves whether that results in a dependency on the broadcast media that is far beyond what we see in many other parts of the United Kingdom. Again, I will provide statistics that show how the dependence of the Welsh public on broadcast media—television and radio—is much clearer in Wales than in the rest of the United Kingdom.
For example, more people get their news in a Welsh context from the television than in any other part of the United Kingdom. Is that a good or a bad thing? Does that lead to a dependence—an overdependence, perhaps—on the BBC? That is not an attack on the BBC, but do we want to end up in a situation in which most news is provided in Wales by one broadcaster? Granted, some of the BBC output goes out on S4C as well, but we are talking about one broadcaster, the BBC, being responsible for the two main radio stations in Wales, for the BBC news output in English and the S4C news output in Welsh. Is that a healthy situation? Is it the best use of licence payer and taxpayer funding if we end up in a situation where the BBC has almost a monopoly?
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
There is a problem in north-east Wales where the BBC output in certain parts comes either from the north-west or the midlands. The hon. Gentleman talked about overdependence on the BBC, but it could be said to be overdependence on the wrong type of BBC.
Guto Bebb
I am fascinated by the concept of the wrong type of BBC, but I understand what the hon. Lady says. Even in my constituency, which is significantly further west than the hon. Lady’s, we have the phenomenon of people turning their aerials towards the north-west because, apart from wind farms, there is nothing to stop signals from the north-west hitting the north Wales coast. It is a fact that people in north-west Wales pick up media from the north-west of England.
The Minister will not be surprised to hear the final point that I will touch on: the situation in relation to S4C and how it can fit into the whole media situation in Wales.
Is the political discourse a problem? I think it clearly is. Any politician knows that it is a problem, because when we knock on doors—I am sure I am not giving away any secrets—we often feel frustrated at people’s lack of understanding about the way in which they are governed. I find it very frustrating, having had a full two years of showing how clearly the Welsh NHS is failing. Some hon. Members will disagree on that point, but it is frustrating to fight a general election with people telling me on the doorstep that they are not voting for me because I am a member of the Government, and the Government are closing maternity units in north Wales. That is the type of frustration that politicians are aware of.
The question is: how can people make the right decision? How can we have an accountable Welsh Assembly if people do not even know what the Assembly is responsible for and they are not even following the discussions that lead to decisions? For example, decisions on the maternity unit in Glan Clwyd are made in Cardiff through the health board, but that accountability is missing in a Welsh context. Frankly, after 18 years of the Welsh Assembly, such lack of accountability is something that should concern all of us. If all political parties believe the Welsh Assembly is central to the way in which Wales is governed and that we should have devolution to greater or lesser extent—there are disagreements as to exactly how much—and if there is a feeling that we should have a devolved Administration who are responsible for crucial decisions in a Welsh context, we have to ask ourselves whether there is a lack of a coherent discussion of the issues relating to people in Wales in the printed media and the media in general. Clearly we have a problem, and I would argue that it is pretty much undisputed that there is a democratic deficit in the way in which public issues and affairs are discussed in a Welsh context. That issue should concern all of us on a cross-party basis. The responses might differ from party to party, but the concern should be genuine and heartfelt among all Members of this House and all people involved in politics in a Welsh context.
The problem arises to a large extent because more than 90% of the printed media read in Wales comes from London. I have nothing against London. I happily live here three to four days a week, and I would be lost without my daily morning paper and certainly my Sunday papers. I know I am in a minority in still enjoying a morning paper. Indeed, my daughter is now doing the same paper round that I used to do 30 years ago. That shows we believe in equality in our household, because she has taken over the paper round from my son. When I did the paper round, I delivered to more than 50 houses, but that has gone down to less than 20. Clearly, there is a decline that is not related to Wales alone. The key point, though, is that as 90% of the printed media sold in Wales come from London, there are clearly questions to be asked. First, why are the Welsh media declining so quickly? Secondly, why do London media not do in Wales what they do in Scotland?
We should ask serious questions about the contrast between Wales and Scotland. There are three daily national newspapers in Scotland, all of which sell more than the two papers we have in Wales. On top of that, Scotland has two regional papers with significant distribution and sales. Furthermore, no fewer than seven UK titles produce Scottish editions. It is difficult to argue that there is not a more lively debate about politics in Scotland than in Wales. I am not saying that that is all down to the failure of the media—politicians must take responsibility as well—but it is difficult to have an engaged discussion when so much of the content people read daily does not address Welsh issues.
Even if some parties present were unhappy with the Daily Mail’s campaign on the Welsh NHS last year, there was something quite refreshing about the fact that day after day for several weeks a London-based newspaper concentrated on the so-called failures of the Welsh Government. I should be clear that I am not trying to make a political point, but in my view there is no doubt that that campaign resulted in public discourse about the Welsh context, because suddenly the London papers were taking an interest in Wales. That type of discussion of Welsh matters should not be confined to one-off issues with, perhaps, a slightly partisan political agenda in the background. I happen to think that the Daily Mail was highlighting important issues of concern to us all, but I respect the fact that some people in the Cardiff Administration would respectfully disagree. I think we would all agree that if there is a perceived failing of the Welsh Government, that should be highlighted in the media read by the people of Wales. If not, we have a problem.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. What role does he see for a vibrant and powerful local press? In my constituency, the Tivy-Side Advertiser and the Cambrian News have led some very spirited and robust defences of our local health service, yet I think he would agree that, sadly, the local press is also in retreat.
Guto Bebb
Indeed, I was going to touch on that. It is significant that Wales has a track record of a strong regional press, although it could be argued that it has been subject to far too much centralisation of ownership. There is a vibrant local press in Wales, but I checked the figures with the Library this morning, and, as far as I am aware, not a single one of our newspapers is showing an increase in sales. Some declining sales are truly worrying. In my constituency, the North Wales Weekly News has given up on its valley edition. It still produces two editions for the coast, but sales are falling.
The Caernarfon & Denbigh Herald was immortalised in a pop song by a group called Y Cynghorwyr, who argued that it says it in the Caernarfon & Denbigh so it must be true: “Mae o’n dweud yn y Caernarfon & Denbigh, y papur sy’n dweud y gwir”. For a newspaper to be immortalised in a pop song but suddenly find its sales falling below 9,000 must be a concern for the regional press. Yes, there is a regional press that can take up the slack, and there is no doubt that, for example, the regional press in north Wales has been at the forefront of the issue when it comes to concerns about the A55 or the health service, but is it in a position to respond positively as sales fall dramatically? I suspect not.
The Institute of Welsh Affairs recently did some media monitoring and found that between 1999 and 2013 the number of journalists working in the local and national press in Wales—I will call the Daily Post and the Western Mail a national press—went from 700 to around 110 or 115. That fall is significant. In my constituency I have first-class journalists who work for both the Weekly News and the Daily Post. They might cover an issue in Llandudno in the morning and then be in another constituency covering a different issue for the Daily Post in the afternoon. They are multi-tasking in order to keep the show on the road. I am not sure whether, in the long term, that will result in the vibrant culture we need for discussion of what is going on in Wales.
There is no denying that the decline has resulted in cuts that, it could be argued, reduce the appeal of the regional press. On Sunday, I was delighted to see the Daily Post print a Sunday edition for the first time in its history. It says a lot about this debate, as the purpose of that edition, on which I warmly congratulate the Daily Post, was to celebrate Welsh sporting success after the Welsh rugby and football teams qualified. I must add that both teams qualified after losing, but that did not stop the Daily Post making a big issue of the success of our Welsh sporting heroes—good for them for doing so. I would be delighted to see the Daily Post appearing again Sunday in future. Nevertheless, that masks the real situation, because there is a decline in the regional press and in our two main daily titles in Wales, resulting in the dominance of public discourse in Wales by the broadcast media, which probably means the BBC in the form of BBC 1 and S4C news content, and Radio Cymru on Radio Wales.
Before I turn to the dominance of the BBC, it is worth mentioning people’s expectations and hopes for online media as an alternative. There is no doubt that the Daily Post and the Western Mail have dramatically increased their online content. The BBC provides a sterling service in trying to cover Wales online in both languages, but I have concerns, as well as hope. For all its faults, the Welsh Assembly has at least recognised the importance of some degree of alternative plurality in Welsh news gathering. Golwg360 is a second online news provider that has been made possible through Welsh Government funding, and I welcome it as a response to the need for diversity in online news. As a Welsh speaker, I welcome the fact that I am able to turn to the BBC and to Golwg360 and find that the content is not always the same—it is often significantly different—but if we acknowledge that there has been a market failure in the provision of plural voices in Welsh online, we should also recognise that there is an issue with online provision in English.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern about the quality of online content? I am heartily sick of reading 20 things I wanted to know—or did not want to know—about some celebrity, some aspect of our geography or whatever.
Craig Williams (Cardiff North) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate and approaching it in his usual style. We have debated intervention in this declining market at length. First, does he welcome the Department for Culture, Media and Sport’s welcome efforts with Made in Cardiff and the increase in local television news? Secondly, I say unashamedly that S4C is based in Cardiff North for now, although of course there are plans for it to go elsewhere. If we look at S4C’s spending, we see that 82% goes on independent broadcasts and supporting the independent network. I commend that as a way in which the media in Wales could approach supporting the sector.
Guto Bebb
I agree with both my hon. Friend’s points. We should applaud the success of a local television network in the Cardiff area, but that does not address the needs of the whole of Wales—of course, that is not to decry the success of such a service in the Cardiff area. I welcome S4C’s spend in the Welsh context and how that can foster a plurality of providers in production companies and so on. The fact that we have an independent television sector in Wales is in many ways a direct result of the existence of S4C. That plurality of production companies, if not of final destinations for programmes, is something that I welcome very warmly.
I mentioned our over-dependence on television for news in a Welsh context. The figures are stark. In most of the UK, about 45% of people get their main news from television; in Wales, the figure is more than 60%. Strikingly, because commercial radio is much more successful in most of the United Kingdom than in Wales, the figures on the number of people in Wales getting their news from the radio is slightly lower than in the rest of the UK. The overall picture, however, is clear: we have a dependence on the broadcast media that is not replicated in the rest of the United Kingdom. We should be concerned about that.
Even more concerning was a study of the 2007 Welsh Assembly election. No respondents to the survey said they gained their news about the election from London-based newspapers. It is difficult to see how there can be a democratic debate if 90% of the newspapers sold in Wales are London-based and contain no coverage of the election. Some 42% of the news that people received about the 2007 Assembly election came from BBC Wales. Obviously, we should congratulate BBC Wales for getting that reach, but before the BBC gets too proud of itself I should point out that the same survey showed that 55% said that their main source of information about the campaign was the polling card, and 72% said it was political literature—so it could be argued that we beat the BBC’s reach.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Although S4C and Welsh-language broadcasting covers very Welsh issues, does my hon. Friend agree that it would be wrong to separate that from the British context? Wales is a part of Britain, and if we are going to continue to subsidise the Welsh-language channel—inevitably it will need a degree of subsidy in the future—it would be wrong for the British Government just to say, “That’s a matter for the Welsh Government. They do not need a contribution from the British Government.” It would be a mistake to isolate the Welsh language as an issue to be dealt with only in Wales and say that it has no consequence for Britain; that would extend the trends he is talking about in other forms of media.
Guto Bebb
I have come to this debate without all the answers, but with many questions. That question is worthy of consideration.
The S4C viewing figures, which include viewing figures from platforms available in England, show a significant following of S4C programmes from viewers based in England. The Welsh language is one of the ancient languages of the United Kingdom, and therefore it should not be looked at in isolation from things that happen on this side of the border. The viewing figures show that S4C undoubtedly provides a service for people living on the other side of Offa’s dyke. It is the same for Radio Cymru’s radio provision. People who enter competitions in the daytime often live in Wolverhampton and Liverpool, happily listening to Radio Cymru. I accept that this debate should not be a Welsh-only debate, but it is important that it does not ignore Wales completely by becoming London-centric. I am genuinely concerned about that.
The figures show our dependence on broadcast media. There is a concern—again, this is not an anti-BBC point—that our dependence on the broadcast media in a Welsh context becomes a dependence on the BBC. The provision of news in Welsh and English in Wales comes from the BBC. If somebody watches BBC news or S4C’s news, they are watching a BBC product. The same is true of Radio Cymru and Radio Wales.
I was recently talking to my wife about this issue. She said that she seldom watches the nine o’clock news on S4C because she has heard most of the content on “Post Prynhawn” on Radio Cymru at 5 pm. That is a genuine concern. If we think that the viewing figures for “Newyddion Naw” on S4C—about 25,000—are not high enough, we need to ask why. When we acknowledge that people in Wales are dependent on the broadcast media for their news, we also acknowledge that they are dependent on the BBC for that content. I wonder whether the fact that 85% of all news content in Wales is provided by one provider is healthy. That is not to say that the BBC is doing anything wrong, but do we need more plurality? If News International provided 85% of all news content in a Welsh context, I suspect that most Opposition parties would complain. The same should stand in relation to the BBC.
We are slowly starting to have a debate in a Welsh context. The Media Reform Coalition and the Institute of Welsh Affairs are starting to talk about these issues, but we need to move forward at a much faster pace. Frankly, it is not just that the provision of information and news is lacking; our democratic institutions in Wales will be undermined if we do not deal with this issue quickly.
There is no denying that S4C is an important issue for all of us who care about broadcasting in a Welsh context. For those of us who are worried about the future of the Welsh language, it is an even more important issue. Most Government Members were willing to consider the spending reductions in 2010 in the context of the spending review, the real challenges facing the Government and other institutions, and the need for them to live within their means. But we need to ask ourselves a simple question: should the future of S4C be decided solely as an add-on to the charter review process, which is being undertaken in London?
The BBC has a budget of some £3.6 billion, and the grant for S4C and the programmes provided by the BBC comes to about £90 million. In the context of a £3.6 billion budget, it is difficult to argue that the £90 million that goes to S4C will be the tail that wags the dog. My concern is that S4C will be forgotten in the charter renewal process. We need to ask ourselves seriously whether it is enough for S4C to be considered as part of the charter review process, or whether an independent review should be undertaken in relation to S4C to ask a simple question: after 33 years, what exactly is the point of a dedicated Welsh-language broadcaster in the 21st century? I think the answer would be very positive indeed, but we have not asked that question since the channel was established in 1982.
In 2010, when the changes were announced to the funding of S4C, and when the reduction to the funding of the BBC and S4C was announced, the then Minister at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport promised that there would be an independent review into the future of S4C at the same time as the charter review. I think that would be welcomed in Wales—not because S4C is more important than any other broadcast element of the Welsh media picture, but because a review would be a starting point for asking serious questions about what exactly we want from the Welsh media in a Welsh context. I would argue strongly, therefore, that the promise that was part of the 2010 settlement should be delivered. I think there is an appetite in Wales for looking creatively and constructively at how to utilise and fund S4C in the future and at how to protect what is important in delivering a service to the people of Wales.
If an independent review is instigated—one was discussed in 2010, but the details were not as forthcoming as they should have been—it is crucial that it should be freed from the issue of cost and money saving. It is important that there should be a two-year provision of financial stability while the review is undertaken, and I would argue that that provision should come from both the BBC and DCMS. I appreciate that the Minister does not represent DCMS, so will not be able to give me certainty about funding streams from another Department. However, if there is an independent review, it has to take place in the context of a stable financial situation.
Mr Williams
I very much welcome the tone of the hon. Gentleman’s comments. I echo the need for stability, which is particularly important for the independent production sector, given the scale of some of the small enterprises. They are facing the prospect a £2.7 million cut in the central Government spending review, and possibly, if there is a 20% reduction from the BBC to S4C, a £15 million cut for S4C, which would have dire implications for the independent production sector.
Guto Bebb
It is difficult to escape the likelihood of real consequences. It is staggering how well S4C has coped with the funding reductions that were part of the 2010 settlement, but, given that less than 4% of the total budget goes on overheads, any further cuts will clearly be to programming, which would be a further kick to media plurality in a Welsh context. The review should not be just about S4C; it should be a starting point for an ongoing civic discussion in a Welsh context about what we want our media to provide.
I am coming to the end of my very long speech, Mr Chope; I apologise. We should be looking at the issue of the plurality of news content, which worries me as somebody who is obsessed with news and interested in current affairs—as I should be, given the job that I do. Ofcom states clearly that if our desired outcome is a plurality of media ownership, we should prevent any one media owner or voice from having too much influence on public opinion. That is certainly the situation in Wales. S4C is a recognition of market failure; it would not exist were we dependent on the market. As a free-market capitalist, I accept that. I believe in the free market, but I also believe that it does not always have all the solutions to all the problems that we face.
If S4C is to respond to the need to provide a service to Welsh speakers in a Welsh context, financial intervention through the licence fee payer, through the taxpayer, should be used for a further common good. For example, why does the deal between the BBC and S4C for 10 hours of BBC programming every week include news content? It must be easy for the BBC because it is not duplicating any services, but if we are concerned about the plurality of news content in Wales, such issues should be considered seriously in any independent review of S4C.
If such a review took place, it would also be an independent review of the media situation in the whole of Wales, because the organisations are so interlinked. If S4C could commission a new service from another provider, that would impact on the BBC, so an independent review would be a real step in the right direction in responding to the deficit in the provision of media content that allows us to discuss what is going on in Wales in a real and proper manner.
This is an important and, to a large extent, a cross-party issue. However, I fully recognise that decisions will have to be made and that my Government will have to respond to some of my points. I am not hiding from that responsibility. I hope that the Government will listen carefully. They responded positively in the past when calls were made to protect S4C’s budget. There is an opportunity here not only to respond to those who want to protect S4C, but to consider carefully how S4C fits into the media pattern in Wales and how, if we recognise a market failure, the intervention of licence fee payer and taxpayer money could deal with some of the deficiencies in media plurality in Wales. We need the opportunity to discuss matters in a Welsh context in the same way as happens in Scotland, Northern Ireland and certainly here in London.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing this debate. The topic has been of concern to me throughout my political career, from the campaigns in the ’70s and ’80s to set up S4C to today, via the debate on media plurality in July, during which the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) spoke eloquently. At that time, if I remember correctly, I said that Welsh broadcasting, specifically Welsh-language broadcasting, is an issue for the entire UK in that S4C is probably the largest contributor to the diversity of UK broadcasting, providing so many hours in a language other than English. Were one the ubiquitous Martian, arriving on this planet and looking at broadcasting in the UK, where would one look for diversity? S4C would obviously be what that Martian would see.
I must take issue with what the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), who is no longer in his place, said about the subsidy for S4C. One could argue that the licence fee is just a subsidy. I do not know why we should single out S4C as having a subsidy; ITV is subsidised by the advertising industry. Subsidy is a pejorative term and we should not be using it.
As the hon. Member for Aberconwy said, Wales now has a clearer identity than at any point over several hundred years at least, but it is not in the league of the “Great British” identity, with TV schedules containing the Great British this and the Great British that. There are not that many listings for the Great Welsh this or the Great Welsh that, but Wales has a clear media identity. Paradoxically, the sources of information available to our population seem to get more precarious and narrower.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the incredibly high penetration of newspapers from England. People in Scotland get their news from domestic sources, but people in Wales get their news from sources outside Wales. One could almost compare the situation to the infamous entry in the Encyclopaedia Britannica that read, “For Wales, see England.” That could be the case here. The interesting thing to note is that if one looked at the entry for England, there was virtually nothing about Wales, which rather says it all—plus ça change.
There is a legitimate concern that Trinity Mirror owns both large—largish—newspapers in Wales, the Daily Post and the Western Mail. The hon. Gentleman referred to News International, and the situation in Wales is something of a monopoly. Although other newspaper companies exist—the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who is no longer in his place, referred to the Cambrian News, which is widely read, and the Tivy-Side Advertiser—the papers in the national forum, if such a thing exists, are owned by the same company. That is not such a concern regarding content, but for the newspapers’ general future direction. I made a point about the quality of online provision and the pressure on journalists to get the “click”. They have to formulate their reports in such a way that allows them to be put online quickly, which leads to issues of quality.
New technology allows all kinds of options, not only in newspapers, but on television. I was recently interviewed by a journalist who set up his own camera and sound recording equipment and then rushed around the back to ensure that everything was working and then rushed around the front to question me. I am unfortunately old enough to remember being interviewed by local broadcast journalists with two or three crew, and by national or UK-wide journalists with two Land Rovers-full of crew, who turned up in Caernarfon to interview me.
Falling circulation is a problem common to all newspapers, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the problem is particularly acute in Wales given the centrality to the national debate of the small number of newspapers. As there are really only two quasi-national newspapers, any fall in their circulation is of deep concern.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Institute of Welsh Affairs, which is to publish a report on 11 November showing that the circulation of Welsh newspapers has again fallen dramatically. The statistics that I have do not give much depth, but they report a fall of 60% in the circulation of the South Wales Echo and a 33% drop in sales of the Daily Post. I do not know over what period that relates to, but it gives an impression of the trend. It is also reported that the Western Mail now sells only 17,815 copies a day, which must be a concern for a national newspaper.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
On that point about the Western Mail being a national daily newspaper for Wales, it has barely ever featured on the reading agenda in my part of west Wales. That is not an insult to the paper; we have just never read the Western Mail in Pembrokeshire and not much in Carmarthenshire either. Is the hon. Gentleman’s point that we are somehow worse off as a result of not having access to the paper? We have never really historically had one at all. I do not quite understand why this is the tragedy that he makes it out to be when it has never been an issue for us.
Hywel Williams
I am all for diversity. Of course, the Daily Post is the paper for the north, and perhaps I can regale Members with a brief story. When I moved from Cardiff to Pwllheli many years ago, I asked the local shop to keep the Western Mail for me. I think I was its only reader there at the time, and it was kept next to the Morning Star and the men’s magazines at the back. There are other newspapers in south Wales and north Wales that have a particular importance.
While I am referring to amusing matters from the past, I should also mention that I once asked my mother why she bothered reading the Daily Post, and she, being an elderly lady, gave me a very straight answer: “I only buy it for the deaths.” Whatever sells newspapers is important, but it is also important that we talk to each other. However, I do not want to reminisce too much.
One small sector—Welsh-language community newspapers—is doing quite well, and other newspapers could learn a great deal from papurau bro, as they are called. They are very small and very local, but their market penetration is enormous—about half the people they serve might look at them at some point. We are talking about circulations of 1,000 or 2,000, but these papers give people what they want, and growth in such provision might be one way forward.
As the hon. Member for Aberconwy said, television is extremely important in Wales because so many people get whatever Welsh news they get from it, rather than from newspapers. We have a very successful news service, albeit limited and provided mainly by the BBC. Although provision in English, on, say, “Wales Today”, tends to be somewhat domestic—one might even say parochial—the news in Welsh addresses international issues. Quite amusingly, it has a network of people around the world—they are not professional journalists of course—who can contribute, and it can find people in Ontario, Mexico or wherever. The other day, when Wales played Fiji at rugby, Radio Cymru went for a comment, not to the ground or to Cardiff, but to a Welsh person living in Fiji, who told us all about the game. That has its weaknesses, but there is a breadth of provision.
All broadcasters face the challenge of declining audiences, as people turn to alternative ways of getting their television, either by delaying watching or by choosing alternative ways of viewing. When I was preparing for the debate in July, I looked at what the Audience Council Wales had said. It used a very striking phrase, which I quoted in my speech. It said broadcasters in Wales were living
“closer to the cliff edge”
than ever before. Broadcasters might be living, and they might be on the right side of the cliff edge, but their position is more precarious than in the past.
The point about S4C is that, although people may be able to access their news in English from anywhere around the world—from Fox News, from the BBC in London or from France 24, which has a service in English—S4C is the only place in the world, and indeed the universe, where people can get a full Welsh-language TV news service. In that respect, it is extremely precious and must be defended. Its decline is particularly serious and dangerous.
The BBC and S4C have had funding cuts. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about possibly reviewing S4C; broadcasting is in a period of extreme fluidity, with all the talk about the licence fee and charter renewal, so this might be an opportune time to do so. However, we should not concentrate just on S4C, because it does quite well. Despite the fact that the news comes from one source—the BBC—and despite all the other problems we might associate with it, the service does at least come through, and people do watch it and get a diverse range of views. I would not, therefore, want to limit a review just to S4C, because that might problematise the service in a way that is probably unfounded.
I noted the hon. Gentleman’s wish to have a freeze on cost-cutting for two years. Certainty of funding is incredibly important for television. The production cycle is not six months or a year, but often much more than two years. Those involved need certainty so that they can produce the high-quality programmes we have seen in the past, which have won such international renown for S4C. Given the circumstances, and given the pressure on Government and BBC expenditure, a two-year freeze might be something of a vain hope, but I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about that.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing this important debate. I also congratulate hon. Members on both sides on their contributions.
As has been said, media plurality is at the heart of any healthy democracy. The United Kingdom is a vibrant, diverse, complex and, at times, eccentric country. It is essential that our broadcasting reflect that. It is also important that we have not only a diverse creative sector, but a plurality of current affairs sources.
Wales is an important, lively and diverse nation within the United Kingdom, and it has its own distinctive language and culture. I cannot claim to have any Welsh connections, but it is often remarked that there are similarities between the north-east, where I am from, and Wales in terms of people’s warmth, eloquence and attractive accent, and, unfortunately, in terms of the decline in some of their more classic industries.
It is critical that Wales should have a plurality of broadcasters that not only encourages different viewpoints, but ensures that Welsh people are informed of matters that are important to them. Having a critical mass of media production also stimulates the creative industries, which create jobs.
It has been clear for some time that UK media coverage of Welsh affairs is poor, to put it mildly. Representing a constituency 290 miles from London, I have first-hand knowledge of how insular a national media based almost entirely in London can be. Indeed, I have held debates in this room about the effect that that has on the diversity, or lack of it, in the national media. It was, indeed, in July that the contribution by the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) helped to familiarise me with the unique situation in Wales and some of the challenges there.
In the north-east, there is a strong regional news presence to fill that gap. I am grateful to our locally based Journal and Chronical, as well as to the Made in Tyne & Wear channel, and indeed to BBC’s “Look North” and to “Tyne Tees” news, which have a local base, even though they are not locally headquartered.
It is important to remember that non-devolved services are covered in the UK news, and they are relevant to my constituents, but much less so to Welsh ones. It is clear from speeches made on both sides of the Chamber that the market for current affairs in Wales is failing to provide adequate services for the Welsh people. BBC Wales covers the National Assembly, as we have heard, but it is essential that people should be afforded a choice of current affairs programming and coverage. Coverage is being reduced, and the problems that traditional media organisations across the UK experience are exacerbated for Welsh content providers.
Susan Elan Jones
My hon. Friend is making an eloquent speech. Does she agree that a difference between the north-east of England and Wales is that the BBC provides a network of local radio stations in England, but that in Wales we no longer have that? We do not have the old Radio Clwyd, Radio Gwent or the others. That is a big oversight, and the BBC needs to look at the issue again.
Chi Onwurah
My hon. Friend intervened just as I was going to mention her in another context. She is quite right that a local radio network, particularly a BBC one, is an important part of media plurality, providing a local or regional insight and perspective on the news. I do not know where we would be without local coverage of our great sporting events, for example. I was grateful to her for making the point that large parts of north-east Wales cannot, in any case, receive BBC Wales, so its impact is limited and that encourages many Welsh citizens to turn to the national UK media outlets.
The fact that many Welsh people choose to consume UK media may also be a symptom of the convergence of media outlets. We cannot and do not want to stop the rise of digital and new media, and the innovation that that brings. However, as Ofcom’s Welsh advisory committee has noted:
“None of the London-based newspaper titles publishes a Welsh edition and there is almost a total absence of Welsh content in UK-wide newspapers.”
Historically, as we have heard, north and south Wales have different papers, and many Welsh people, if not the majority, take UK papers. While technology is disrupting traditional media models and creating many innovative online communities and interest groups—we have heard some of the hopes for the future in that regard—it has yet to provide a model that pays for local journalists on the ground covering events in communities and council chambers, or even the National Assembly Chamber. I speak as a champion of the internet when I say that we must recognise that the internet is not yet an alternative to independent professional journalism—certainly not yet in Wales. Ofcom’s advisory committee on Wales reported what many people have known for some time: that the situation is a cause for considerable concern and is getting worse.
Now a double whammy of cuts is coming down the track for public service broadcasters in Wales. The Chancellor’s decision to make the BBC pay for free TV licences for those over 75 has resulted in cuts to services. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport confirmed that Welsh programming would not be spared. As to the direct funding—I do not believe it is a subsidy—from DCMS for Welsh output, it has been reported in the media, although of course we do not know, that DCMS is planning for 40% cuts to its budget. In those circumstances it is highly likely that there are further cuts in the pipeline for Welsh output; but of course it is for the Minister to give us certainty about that.
Guto Bebb
The hon. Lady is right to make the point about the decision to agree with the BBC that the licence fee should come out of its budget; but from the point of view of concern about S4C, which is a small part of the BBC’s funding stream, surely the point is that the director-general agreed without any consultation with S4C, even though there were funding implications for it. Surely if the BBC were serious about its role in protecting S4C it would at least have consulted before making an agreement.
Chi Onwurah
The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. I agree that there should have been consultation with S4C, but I would also make the observation that the Secretary of State made his decision without consulting anyone, and in direct contradiction of criticisms he made while he was the Chair of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. In a democratic country we would expect consultation on a decision as important as funding, and obviously that would include consulting S4C on its funding.
I want to finish with some questions to the Minister. I am curious about what assessment he has made of the cuts, in a situation that is already a cause for serious concern. I have asked DCMS Ministers that question about a number of areas over the years and the answer is all too often a variation on “not much”. I hope that a Wales Office Minister can do better. What is the Minister doing to improve and strengthen media plurality in Wales? What discussions has he had with the Welsh Government and DCMS on cuts to Welsh public sector broadcasters? What assessment have the Government made of the effects of cuts on those broadcasters both before and since they were made? What discussions has he had with national media organisations more broadly, in the private and public sectors, about their coverage in Wales? Does he agree that there is a crisis in Welsh media plurality, and can he point to a policy or plan to address it?
I am sure that the Minister agrees with me and hon. Members about the importance of the issue to Wales. I am leaving as much time as he could need to set out how he plans to tackle it. The challenge is a long-term one that is not likely to go away without intervention from his Department, working in partnership across Government.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)
It is a pleasure to serve once again under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I welcome this debate on an important issue, and pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), who has shown an interest in the subject for many years since he came to the House. He is a champion of plurality, S4C, the Welsh language and news consumption, which are matters I want to return to.
I thank all the hon. Members who spoke. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) highlighted the role of Made in Cardiff TV and of S4C, which is based in his constituency. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) reflected on a range of issues, including papurau bro. The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who is not in his place at the moment, highlighted the relevance of local media, and the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) talked about radio broadcasts and the impact of what has been happening in north-east Wales in particular. The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) left me with a list of questions that I will do my best to answer as the debate develops.
It was also a pleasure to hear contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) and for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), who is looking forward to the move of S4C from Cardiff North to his constituency—no doubt he will be not only an existing champion, but a future champion of the interests of the channel.
In Wales, as in the rest of the United Kingdom, the public’s ability to access a wide range of news, views and information about the world, nation or region in which they live is central to the health of democracy and society. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy talked about the changing political nature of Wales, and devolution rightly underlines the need for distinct and robust media outlets to contribute to the effective scrutiny of decisions made by tiers of government at all levels—it is essential to have accountability; a word he rightly used for testing policy and holding decision makers to account.
I recognise the specific challenges for media plurality in Wales outlined by hon. Members, in particular where the Welsh language is involved, and I will return to some of those points. Some issues were highlighted in Ofcom’s report on the future of public service broadcasting published in July, in particular our heavy reliance on BBC and S4C output for news and information about Wales. That point was also made by my hon. Friend.
I also recognise the importance of the Welsh context. Our topography has always presented challenges for terrestrial television coverage—for example, on commercial digital terrestrial television multiplexes—as well as for FM and DAB coverage. There has always been a battle over access to the broadcasting spectrum in Wales, which has arguably been characterised by fewer local commercial radio stations. Lower broadband take-up is another challenge because of the topography, although we are making excellent progress in closing the gap, but that has contributed to higher take-up of satellite TV than in other parts of the United Kingdom.
The debate has focused significantly on S4C. The channel has helped Wales to create one of the most dynamic examples of a creative industry cluster in the UK and beyond. In that context, it was a privilege to host a meeting at the Wales Office between key independent programme makers and companies and Teledwyr Annibynnol Cymru, the independent representative body, with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport only a couple of weeks ago. It was an opportunity for the independents to highlight their priorities for the Secretary of State and for him better to understand the needs of the sector in Wales.
Many of the companies involved are international in their outlook and operations. Their form rightly evolves and responds to the ever-changing marketplace. They have attracted private equity interest and takeovers, demonstrating the constant evolution and interest maintained in the industry from the perspective not only of viewers, but of the investments that result in a successful industry.
The success of Welsh television production has led to internationally recognised awards that have opened up significant export markets. Welsh-made television shows and formats are now sold worldwide. We have even had a Welsh hill farmer presenting on a French television programme—Gareth Wyn Jones, a farmer from Conwy, who originally starred in “The Hill Farm”, a show that has won an award from the British Academy of Film and Television Arts. He was asked to front a travel show on Wales for a major French television channel. That demonstrates diversity, which was one of the points made by the hon. Member for Arfon.
As well as a scene of dynamic independents, Wales has become a hub of creativity and a desirable place to make programmes, and I need only mention a few: the BBC 1 drama series “The Indian Doctor”, which has been sold to the US, China, Estonia, Mexico and Israel; “Dr Who”, for which Wales is the production centre and which is an iconic success of British television that has aired in more than 200 countries and been dubbed into many languages; S4C’s “Fferm Ffactor”, which is now licensed and produced in Denmark, Sweden and China; “Hinterland”, which was filmed in both Welsh and English, highlighting innovation and significant economies of scale from co-operating with the BBC and creating interest overseas from other independents; and children’s programmes shown on CBBC, with BAFTA-winning spin-off apps demonstrating the divergence between modern and traditional broadcasting technology.
Wales is home to more than 50 television and animation companies, which collectively generate around £1 billion a year for the Welsh economy. That all contributes greatly to employment in Wales, and last year 51,000 people were employed in the creative industries—a 10.5% increase since 2011—and 80,000 in the wider creative economy.
We have not given too much attention to plurality in radio in our debate, but it is relevant to the issues that were raised. I am pleased that the BBC is extending its national DAB coverage with 22 new transmitters across Wales by the end of 2015. Furthermore, with the BBC and commercial radio, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is investing up to £7.75 million to extend local DAB to match local commercial FM coverage. That will support further plurality in broadcasting in Wales, for which the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central called. I hope that that will be welcomed in all parts of the House.
The benefits will be more choice of digital radio services for Welsh listeners and substantial improvements in BBC radio and BBC Radio Cymru digital coverage. Equally importantly, that offers opportunities for local and regional commercial radio services, which are popular throughout Wales and which play an important part in the plurality of news services—an important point highlighted by the hon. Member for Clwyd South. The new technology will provide more opportunities to fill the gaps, where they exist. I recognise, however, that more needs to be done further to enhance digital radio coverage in Wales—something we highlighted in the BBC Green Paper.
As hon. Members have mentioned, Wales does not have as strong a print media sector as Scotland or Northern Ireland. Ofcom, in its recent assessment of public service broadcasting across the UK, highlighted the fact that most daily newspaper readers read newspapers that include little content related specifically to Wales and the National Assembly for Wales—something that was underlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy. While the print circulation of dailies in Wales continues to decline, along with the circulation of dailies throughout the United Kingdom, online services go from strength to strength. There has been little coverage of that in the debate so far.
Media Wales is one example, with its Wales Online brand doubling its audience last year, according to the latest ABC—Audit Bureau of Circulations—figures. North and south Wales are specifically targeted by Media Wales through the Western Mail and the Daily Post brand. It is also worth highlighting, however, the fact that Wales’s highest-selling daily newspaper, the South Wales Evening Post, based in Swansea, has also shown a strong performance online.
Other regional groups are important. The Tindle group has an exceptionally strong presence in my constituency, with the Glamorgan GEM series, but also in Monmouth, Pembrokeshire and elsewhere. Newsquest has the Barry & District News and the Penarth Times in my constituency, and the South Wales Argus in south-east Wales, as well as publications elsewhere. Similarly, its focus has shifted to its online output, on top of the weekly sales or distribution of its papers.
Glyn Davies
I thank the Minister for giving me the chance to mention the County Times in Montgomeryshire —probably the only newspaper sold in Wales that has not yet had a mention today. My constituency is close to Shropshire, so it is also worth mentioning the Shropshire Star, a hugely important newspaper in Wales. These media, including internet companies in Welshpool and Newtown, are growing incredibly rapidly and having significant influence. A whole range of providers in eastern Wales might not have featured in the debate until I intervened.
Alun Cairns
My hon. Friend has a strong reputation for carrying the front page—and not only of the County Times, in which he regularly features; I remember him even making the front page of the Daily Star, which certainly brought his name to the attention of many, particularly in Wales. He rightly champions the County Times and I know the interest he shows in it, but mid-Wales is an area with a gap in local radio coverage. That is recognised and ties in with the point made by the hon. Member for Clwyd South.
Guto Bebb
I want to focus again on online content. It is important to recognise that the media in Wales, whether south or north, such as the BBC and Golwg 360, is doing a great job in providing content on the internet. However, having spoken to some such organisations, my concern is about their ability to generate an income from online activities; that income is not growing as fast as the decline in income from trade sales. Great work is being done, but that online provision will soon be lost unless that gap can be plugged quickly.
Alun Cairns
My hon. Friend makes an important point. The online market is still new and different newspapers are seeking different approaches to capitalise on the readership they are generating to try to create an income. We all know that News UK’s online news is a paid-for service, which is different from what some of the other UK national newspapers are pursuing. The market will mature in time, but he rightly makes the point about the switch from selling daily newspapers to media online. I do not think that they are mutually exclusive; they are complementary, but a model needs to be developed to suit their individual communities.
Much attention has been given to UK national newspapers and their lack of coverage of Wales. However, there have been some positive steps. I mentioned News UK, and we need to recognise that The Sun on Sunday and The Sunday Times now have Welsh editions. That is at an early stage and it is a limited adjustment compared with different newspapers, but it is a welcome, positive step. When Wales beats England in the rugby, it will be a Welsh rugby player on the front page celebrating rather than what might be on the front of the English version: commiserations for an English rugby player disappointed at Welsh success.
On a more serious note, the news emphasis is changing. We need to pay tribute to and welcome News UK’s intervention and hope that other newspapers will follow that model and that the readership will increase as a result of reflecting the needs and demands of Wales as a wider community.
In addition, local and hyper-local media projects are of growing importance and have helped plurality in Wales. They are supported by the destination local project, which is supported by Nesta and other partners. In one such project, the papur bro—community newspaper—in Caernarvon is working with television company Cwmni Da and further education college Coleg Menai to create a Welsh-language mobile and digital service to provide hyper-local news and information to the community; the hon. Member for Arfon touched on that briefly.
As we draw to the debate’s close, I want to say a few words about the Government’s overall approach to media plurality.
Susan Elan Jones
The Minister referred to papurau bro—community newspapers. Does he recognise that one of the great features of those hyper-local news outlets is that in many cases they have existed for a very long time? I think of the Nene, the papur bro in Rhosllanerchrugog. What they provide is absolutely unique and, in many cases, that has been one of the reasons for encouraging the Welsh language in many communities across Wales.
Alun Cairns
The hon. Lady makes an extremely important point. Any innovation and new technology that can be brought to the papurau bro to allow them to maintain their audiences and reach new ones over time is to be encouraged. It is good to see broadcasting companies such as Cwmni Da working with the papurau bro to try to bring about new technology and allow their economies of scale to be used.
In terms of the overall approach to media plurality, the Government have two roles to play. The first is to see that public service broadcasting is in good shape in the nations and regions. The second is to ensure that all parts of the UK continue to be served by an effective range of services that represent a range of media voices, including the Welsh language in Wales.
On television, public service broadcasting in Wales is in pretty good shape. ITV Wales was separated from the Wales and west regional licence in January 2014, which means that Wales has its own commercial, English-language PSB channel. In addition, local news requirements for ITV licences were strengthened, and I pay tribute to ITV Wales for how it has responded and for what it achieves with more limited resources than other public service broadcasters. It offers a genuinely high quality service, which creates much better choice for viewers who can decide which options to pursue.
We have also ensured that S4C continues to make its contribution to Welsh cultural life and to the diversity and variety of TV content across the UK, as many have mentioned, including the hon. Member for Arfon. It is easy to take S4C for granted and not recognise that it is pretty unique—not just in the UK, but in Europe. We should also recognise that the previous comprehensive spending review protected S4C’s financial position.
It would be premature of me to respond to questions on how the current CSR will affect the channel. Discussions are ongoing, but our commitment to Welsh-language programming and the future of S4C stands. That is relevant to the BBC’s charter renewal, which is also ongoing and includes the relationship between the BBC and S4C as well as the BBC’s role in the nations.
Some have expressed concern about the reduction in English-language output in Wales, which I am pleased to see the BBC is looking at, as highlighted in the evidence it has presented for the charter renewal. It has said that it wants to protect the interests of the nations of the UK in charter renewal and I trust that that extends to S4C. We would encourage that.
We have said many times that we will safeguard S4C’s editorial and operational independence. The call for a review, made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy, will certainly be taken into account. It is interesting and will be considered as part of the BBC’s charter renewal process. He is a steadfast champion of S4C and hosted a similar debate on this subject five years ago. Its outcome led to the current settlement. Many at the time doubted or criticised that outcome, so it is ironic that the same people are now calling for the current position to be maintained. The reality is that we gave a manifesto pledge to secure its future and we will always respect S4C’s editorial and operational independence. That was promised five years ago and has been delivered since then. His call for a review of S4C is interesting and something that we will look at in the context of the BBC’s charter renewal and the CSR.
It is worth highlighting the other side of broadcast media as raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North: the emergence of local TV services in Cardiff, which have been on air for nearly 12 months. Services in Mold and Swansea are due to launch shortly, which will give more choice in new and local programming. It is early days for those services, but we hope that they will be able to grow audiences and that, with their clear remits for local news and information, they will help to strengthen local democracy and accountability by giving attention to local issues.
The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is working closely with Ofcom to support Mold’s application to extend services to Wrexham, which I know a number of Welsh Members on both sides have raised with the Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey).
With only 10 stations, however, Wales does not appear to have embraced community radio in the same way as Scotland has, with its 26 stations. Community radio is especially important for rural areas that are under-served by radio as a whole. Stations such as Tudno FM in Llandudno, MônFM in Anglesey and Radio Glan Clwyd in Bodelwyddan are well established. They provide a fantastic and valuable resource for their communities, broadening the choice of services, and are examples that can be built on to deal with some of the gaps elsewhere in Wales that I have highlighted. But there are no community stations in mid or west Wales. I want to look at that with DCMS and Ofcom as part of the planning for the next round of community radio licensing. The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy mentioned that when he responded to the debate on community radio held on 8 September, which was led by my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Amanda Milling).
The Government’s second responsibility is for the media market, and has two important aspects: first, to ensure that we have workable rules on media ownership and secondly, to ensure that we have a robust and objective framework for measuring media plurality. On the first aspect, Ofcom reviews the media ownership rules every three years. It will report to the Culture Secretary on its latest review in November, and the Government will consider its findings carefully before deciding whether action is required.
As for the second aspect, in July 2013 the Government carried out a consultation on what the scope of the measurement framework for media plurality should be. From a range of options, we concluded that online media should be included, for some of the reasons that have been highlighted in the debate. We also concluded that news and current affairs are the type and content of media most relevant to media plurality, a point many hon. Members have underlined today.
The scope of the framework should include all organisations that impact on news and current affairs services, including organisations that generate, gather and aggregate news, services that could affect discoverability and accessibility—online news services, for example—and professional and non-professional commentary such as blogs and social media. We also concluded that the BBC should be included within the review. The framework must deliver indicators capable of illustrating the situation at UK level and in each of the nations of the UK, and should examine issues at a regional and local level in some areas. However, full examination of every local area is not anticipated. Following the consultation, in September 2014 we commissioned Ofcom to develop a measurement framework for media plurality. That work is ongoing.
In the couple of minutes remaining, I will return to the issue of the BBC’s dominance in broadcasting in Wales. We are all familiar with the fact that the BBC has responsibility for 10 hours of broadcasting for S4C. The content of that 10 hours is not stipulated and it is of course for the S4C executive to negotiate and decide what those 10 hours should consist of—it need not necessarily be news content. I am interested to hear about any discussions that have taken place between the two organisations because, as the Ofcom report highlights and as many contributions from across the Chamber have championed, diversity and plurality in news outlets are exceptionally important.
We have highlighted local, ultra-local, regional and national newspapers as well as online coverage and the commercial output from ITV Wales, but we need to recognise the BBC’s unique role. It can provide greater opportunities for other organisations—competitors, as it were—to develop in the market, which would be welcome. It is for S4C to decide where it will commission its news from. There was an interesting debate on that matter some six or more years ago, and my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy raised it in his championing of the channel. He has always been a champion of S4C, as have many other Members here.
I thank you for chairing our debate, Mr Chope. I also thank hon. Members for their contributions to a discussion that has been a very effective contribution to the charter renewal discussions and the comprehensive spending review negotiations.
Guto Bebb
I thank the Minister and the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) for their responses to the debate. I suspected that the Minister would not be in a position to make any promises on the question of finance and I understand why. I appreciate his positive comments and am aware that in the ongoing negotiations within Government we have in him a strong champion for broadcasting in Wales of all types—whether online or on radio, in Welsh or in English. I thank him for his response.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered media plurality in Wales.