Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sir Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of trends in the level of employment in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Employment in Wales is now at a record high, with more people than ever before having the security of a pay packet to provide for themselves and their family. Aston Martin has been mentioned. That is testimony to the significant investment that Wales is attracting.

[Rehman Chishti]

As a former student of Aberystwyth University, the oldest and the best law school in Wales, I have been pleased to see that more than 80% of employees in mid-Wales are now employed by small and medium-sized enterprises. Will the Minister join me in acknowledging the significance of that thriving community to the economy in Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is right and he is a true champion of Aberystwyth and of mid-Wales. He will be pleased to hear that there are 3,500 additional small businesses in that area, with an extra 5,500 people going out to work every day since 2010 as a result of the economic stability we have brought about.

[Sir Henry Bellingham]

Does the Minister agree that the key to further enhancing employment in Wales is diversification and innovation in the rural economy, just as is happening in East Anglia? What specific measures does he have in mind to increase enterprise in Wales’s more remote areas?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is a great expert on rural issues in relation to the success in his constituency in North West Norfolk, and I pay tribute to that. Employment growth in rural Wales has outperformed employment increases across the whole of Wales, which demonstrates the dynamism and the broad base on which those policies are being implemented. There is a range of initiatives such as the British Business Bank, the start-up loan scheme and the new enterprise allowance scheme on a UK Government basis, and we are keen to work with the Welsh Government to try to diversify further.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Now that it is official Government policy to support membership of the European Union in the referendum, will the Minister and the Secretary of State produce a report that shows the benefit of the European Union to jobs and investment in Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

Our position is clear. The Government support the deal that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has negotiated. Of course, Europe is important to our exporters and businesses, but it is also important because of the money repatriated from Europe to Wales and the United Kingdom through cohesion funding.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

As Aberystwyth’s MP, I reiterate the comments of the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti). If we are serious about creating more jobs, and we are, that means real investment in real infrastructure. Why, then, has the Government’s mobile infrastructure project been such a failure and delivered so little for rural Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman raises this issue persistently. As a result of representations from him and others, I met Openreach earlier this week, as well as Broadband Delivery UK. I have plans to meet the mobile operators shortly to discuss what more can be done to improve the mobile infrastructure. With the 4G auction, at least 95% coverage will be gained in Wales. That contrasts significantly with the 3G auction and the low percentage that Wales was left with last time.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating my constituent, Mr Sean Taylor, on the further expansion of his company, Zip World? In four years this company has gone from no staff to 220 staff, revitalising the economy of rural north-west Wales, to the benefit of employment and diversification of the local economy.

[Alun Cairns]

Many Members will appreciate the difficulties that zip wires can present, but I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who is a true champion of zip wires and the success and diversification that they bring not only to his own constituency, but to Arfon. We are keen to see the further support and diversification of that business in his area.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

Following the excellent news about Aston Martin, I pay tribute to that company, to our dynamic pro-business Welsh Labour Government and to everyone who was involved in securing the deal. As we are discussing trends in employment, and with around 200,000 jobs in Wales dependent on our EU membership, what does the Minister think would happen to trends in employment if we were daft enough to leave the EU?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for recognising the efforts that the UK Government have made to attract investment, particularly with the major Aston Martin investment in my constituency. I think those comments should be underlined. Of course, the Government do not plan to leave the European Union; the Prime Minister has made the case, having negotiated a strong deal, and we are confident that the British people will support that when the referendum comes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

6. What assessment he has made of trends in the proportion of households in Wales which are workless.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Wales is getting back to work. There are 58,000 fewer workless households in Wales since 2010. Our welfare reforms are benefiting the people of Wales, helping them into jobs that will provide a regular wage for themselves and their families.

[Bob Blackman]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the far-reaching benefit changes and reforms of the welfare state are encouraging people to get back to work and have the dignity of earning a living rather than living a life on benefits?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The unemployment rate in Wales has fallen by more than that in any part of the UK over the last quarter. Welfare reform is key to that. We are determined to deliver a low welfare, low tax, high wage economy.

[Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab)]

The Institute for Fiscal Studies warned this month that universal credit will tend to weaken the incentive for single parents to be in work. What assessment have the Government made of the effect that rolling out universal credit will have on the number of workless households in Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

Welfare reform needs to be taken in its totality. It is about incentivising work but also about increasing wages and lowering taxes. I would hope that the hon. Lady would reflect on the positive nature of welfare reform in turning around communities, families and society.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

8. What recent discussions he has had with stakeholders in Wales on future investment in large infrastructure projects in north Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The Secretary of State and I regularly meet stakeholders to discuss the Government’s plans to deliver improvements in infrastructure across the whole of Wales. For instance, next week the Secretary of State will meet Hitachi to discuss its proposals for a new nuclear power station at Wylfa in more detail.

[David Rutley]

Can my hon. Friend confirm that bringing HS2 to Crewe six years early, as part of the Government’s northern powerhouse, will directly benefit the people of north Wales and spur more economic development programmes in Wales, as well as in north-west England and Cheshire more generally?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this issue. He highlights the fact that the HS2 project is truly a national scheme. The Crewe hub offers significant potential to north Wales and to the northern powerhouse. I recently met the North Wales-Mersey Dee alliance rail taskforce, which also recognises the potential of north Wales for the northern powerhouse and the northern powerhouse for north Wales.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Much is rightly made of trends in employment in Wales, but average full-time workers’ pay in my constituency has dropped by 12% in the past two years. What is the Secretary of State doing to bring infrastructure projects, along with science and technology salaries, to Llanbedr and Trawsfynydd in Dwyfor Meirionnydd?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady is naturally a true champion not only of her own constituency but the whole of north Wales. She will welcome the significant investment in the prison in Wrexham and the £20 billion investment that Wylfa Newydd will bring. She has also shown interest in the modular nuclear projects at Trawsfynydd. I recently met the leader of Gwynedd Council to discuss the prospects that could result from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor’s announcement in the Budget making £250 million available for this scheme.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

9. When he expects the report of the Macur review to be published.

Draft Wales Bill

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Thank you, Mr Hanson, for chairing this Welsh Grand Committee so ably, and I echo the comments that have been made about Mr Owen, who chaired this morning’s sitting. I thank right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions and for the largely positive way in which the debate has been conducted. We have had the odd tense moment, but there has been a remarkable change in the culture of the Welsh Grand Committee, certainly compared with some of the sittings I attended in the past.

As the Secretary of State said at the outset, we want a constructive debate about the draft Wales Bill, to inform the improvements we will make before the Bill is introduced. The Committee has certainly agreed about the principle involved, but there has been some disagreement about the detail and the wiring, to use a phrase used by the Secretary of State. That only underlines how complex and difficult this process is. Some of the suggestions we have heard—I will come to them in a moment—are flawed.

According to many members, the answer is to call for a constitutional convention. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire said that that could well be a method of kicking the matter into the long grass. There is only one example in modern history of a convention or a commission to examine the UK settlement: the Kilbrandon Commission. It was set up by Harold Wilson in April 1969 and it reported in October 1973. It had 16 volumes, 10 research papers and it ended inconclusively. That is a warning that some hon. Members may wish to bear that in mind when they call for a constitutional convention. It does not address the fundamental issues that we are trying to resolve.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I agree that we cannot just press “pause” on the world and wait for a constitutional convention. However, there is no reason why such a convention could not be started while we deal with some of the urgent issues that need to be tackled. The argument that, because something may not have worked in the past, it should not be tried in the present is deeply reactionary. I hoped that a more progressive point of view would be expressed.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful for that point, which I accept in the spirit that the hon. Gentleman intended. I intended partly to give a light-hearted example of a constitutional convention, and partly to probe the motives of some who call for such a convention to ascertain whether they really want a Bill.

[Mr David Jones]

I fully appreciate my hon. Friend’s point. We do not want a talking shop that goes on for years. I also understand his possible suspicion of Members of other parties, such as the First Minister of Wales. However, given that Lord Norton of Louth, who is a well-respected Conservative peer, is calling for a constitutional convocation, should not the Wales Office at least consider that?

[Alun Cairns]

Certainly, the Wales Office and the Government will listen to all the points that are expressed, but I was merely highlighting the one example that we have in modern history of a constitutional convention and how complicated that became to give a context for the difficulty of trying to resolve some of those issues.

I remind people who have been extremely critical of the draft Bill, the St David’s day agreement and the process that the Secretary of State undertook, of the Richard Commission and the amount of time that that spent, only to be rejected by the Government of the day. That left us with a complex situation and the LCO mechanism. How many of us remember how complicated that was, whether we were in the Assembly or in Westminster? It is therefore a bit rich for some people to suggest that there is a simple and straightforward way of resolving the issues. We are keen to listen to and develop the debate, and the draft Bill was published in that spirit.

To underline the points that were made at the outset, there is a lot of rhetoric and misunderstanding. Some comments that have been made in Committee are simply inaccurate. I will pick up on some of them shortly, including those made by the hon. Member for Clwyd South. The draft Bill is ambitious and extends significant amounts of new powers to the Assembly. Matters that have been raised—be it the necessity test or the consents—are not about limiting Assembly powers. There is no Machiavellian plot to clip the Assembly’s wings. It is about giving the Assembly the powers, with two Governments that have responsibility for matters that relate to Wales: the legitimate Welsh Government, who will have legitimate powers over devolved matters, and the UK Government. Who knows? In the long-term future, there may be a Labour Administration, although I do not expect that to happen for at least another two or three general elections. However, in future, Opposition Members in this Committee Room, who may be Ministers in such an Administration, could be grateful for the powers that the Bill will grant to marry the interface between Wales and the UK Government.

Not unexpectedly, several Members raised the necessity test, and I will not have time to go round all those who mentioned it. Let me clear up the misunderstanding that exists. The necessity test applies only when the Assembly seeks to legislate in relation to England, in relation to reserved matters and in relation to underlying principles of criminal and private law. It has nothing to do with the Welsh Government legislating in Wales on a devolved matter. The necessity test is about when something touches reserved matters and matters that could be deemed to be the responsibility of the UK Government.

I will give a practical, straightforward example relating to the education of a child with special educational needs. If that child, from Wales, is being educated in a school in England, Estyn would naturally have the responsibility for inspecting the provision for that child in the school in England. It would not have the authority to close the school in England, because that would be a matter for the UK Government, but it would have the power to go to that school in England. The necessity test is about making the Welsh legislation effective when it crosses the English border. That is one practical example: there are a whole host of higher education institutions that have bases in England. The necessity test is about making the Welsh legislation effective as it applies to England. That is the scope and the scale of the necessity test. It is about enforcing legislation made by the Assembly.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

Can the Minister confirm that that necessity test is taken from Scots law, where it is used in far narrower circumstances? Ministers are trying to massively broaden it in the Welsh context. Will he confirm that that is the case? Because it is.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Torfaen. The reason I highlighted that practical example was to reject completely some of the accusations that have been made in a number of speeches about not granting the Welsh Government the powers to act in those devolved areas. The hon. Member for Torfaen made a point about legislation relating to horses. That is absolute nonsense as the Bill is drafted.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

Will the Minister give way?

[Alun Cairns]

I would like to give way, but in the limited time I have left I will not. I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman and share with any other interested hon. Member why the example relating to horses is not relevant. I apologise, but I have two minutes left and I want to talk very briefly about the “separate” and “distinct” jurisdictions.

The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd came forward with the very practical suggestion of having the “distinct” jurisdiction governed by the geographical border. However, that in itself curtails the powers of the Assembly when it is enacting legislation in relation to England. That is an example of the complexity here: should we pursue the model presented by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, we would roll back powers. This complexity explains why we are trying to tease out these issues, so that we can bring forward amendments that will work for Wales, but will also work for the UK Government.

In the minutes that remain, I want to talk about the Crown consents, the so-called English veto. I absolutely reject the accusations and the phrase. More than 50 legislative consent motions have been agreed between the UK Government and the Welsh Government over the past five years when the UK Government have touched devolved responsibilities. That is the responsibility of a mature Administration. If the Welsh Government want to act on non-devolved responsibilities, quite clearly a Crown consent would be the mature, natural approach to follow. If it works, and legislative consent motions have worked well over the past five years, in a mature debate, why cannot that work in the other way? The suggestions of rejecting and opposing them would be to grant the Welsh Government powers extending well beyond any other settlement. I do not think that that is what the Labour party wants and it is certainly not what the Conservative party wants. Plaid Cymru might want that, but it has a respected position, which is to seek independence. I do not think it is what the Labour party or the Government want.

[The Chair]

Order. Time has beaten us.

Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Nia Griffith]

The term “distinct” has been used to suggest that we would not need to have separate courts, that lawyers could practise on both sides of the border—we would have, if you like, a separate book, separate legislation, but not a separate court system. As I just said, that is one solution that might be suggested; it is not the only solution. If the Secretary of State can show us what other plans he might have, perhaps he can bring forward something different, but it clearly needs to be looked at. We understand the problem; we have not yet had a solution from the Secretary of State.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The hon. Lady has tried to define “distinct legal jurisdiction”, but the Presiding Officer in the Assembly, for example, has called for a high court of Wales. Does that fit the “distinct” model?

[Nia Griffith]

The “distinct” model does not have to have a separate high court: that is the whole point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian C. Lucas]

I do not think that I can deal with the constitutional question in response to an intervention, but I welcome any consideration or detailed assessment of the constitution as a whole. I want to get away from the principle of trying to deal with such issues piecemeal across the United Kingdom, which is a massive mistake.

[Alun Cairns]

rose—

[Ian C. Lucas]

I am not going to give way to those on the Front Bench, because they have had far too many interventions.

Draft Wales Bill

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Thank you, Mr Hanson, for chairing this Welsh Grand Committee so ably, and I echo the comments that have been made about Mr Owen, who chaired this morning’s sitting. I thank right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions and for the largely positive way in which the debate has been conducted. We have had the odd tense moment, but there has been a remarkable change in the culture of the Welsh Grand Committee, certainly compared with some of the sittings I attended in the past.

As the Secretary of State said at the outset, we want a constructive debate about the draft Wales Bill, to inform the improvements we will make before the Bill is introduced. The Committee has certainly agreed about the principle involved, but there has been some disagreement about the detail and the wiring, to use a phrase used by the Secretary of State. That only underlines how complex and difficult this process is. Some of the suggestions we have heard—I will come to them in a moment—are flawed.

According to many members, the answer is to call for a constitutional convention. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire said that that could well be a method of kicking the matter into the long grass. There is only one example in modern history of a convention or a commission to examine the UK settlement: the Kilbrandon Commission. It was set up by Harold Wilson in April 1969 and it reported in October 1973. It had 16 volumes, 10 research papers and it ended inconclusively. That is a warning that some hon. Members may wish to bear that in mind when they call for a constitutional convention. It does not address the fundamental issues that we are trying to resolve.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I agree that we cannot just press “pause” on the world and wait for a constitutional convention. However, there is no reason why such a convention could not be started while we deal with some of the urgent issues that need to be tackled. The argument that, because something may not have worked in the past, it should not be tried in the present is deeply reactionary. I hoped that a more progressive point of view would be expressed.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful for that point, which I accept in the spirit that the hon. Gentleman intended. I intended partly to give a light-hearted example of a constitutional convention, and partly to probe the motives of some who call for such a convention to ascertain whether they really want a Bill.

[Mr David Jones]

I fully appreciate my hon. Friend’s point. We do not want a talking shop that goes on for years. I also understand his possible suspicion of Members of other parties, such as the First Minister of Wales. However, given that Lord Norton of Louth, who is a well-respected Conservative peer, is calling for a constitutional convocation, should not the Wales Office at least consider that?

[Alun Cairns]

Certainly, the Wales Office and the Government will listen to all the points that are expressed, but I was merely highlighting the one example that we have in modern history of a constitutional convention and how complicated that became to give a context for the difficulty of trying to resolve some of those issues.

I remind people who have been extremely critical of the draft Bill, the St David’s day agreement and the process that the Secretary of State undertook, of the Richard Commission and the amount of time that that spent, only to be rejected by the Government of the day. That left us with a complex situation and the LCO mechanism. How many of us remember how complicated that was, whether we were in the Assembly or in Westminster? It is therefore a bit rich for some people to suggest that there is a simple and straightforward way of resolving the issues. We are keen to listen to and develop the debate, and the draft Bill was published in that spirit.

To underline the points that were made at the outset, there is a lot of rhetoric and misunderstanding. Some comments that have been made in Committee are simply inaccurate. I will pick up on some of them shortly, including those made by the hon. Member for Clwyd South. The draft Bill is ambitious and extends significant amounts of new powers to the Assembly. Matters that have been raised—be it the necessity test or the consents—are not about limiting Assembly powers. There is no Machiavellian plot to clip the Assembly’s wings. It is about giving the Assembly the powers, with two Governments that have responsibility for matters that relate to Wales: the legitimate Welsh Government, who will have legitimate powers over devolved matters, and the UK Government. Who knows? In the long-term future, there may be a Labour Administration, although I do not expect that to happen for at least another two or three general elections. However, in future, Opposition Members in this Committee Room, who may be Ministers in such an Administration, could be grateful for the powers that the Bill will grant to marry the interface between Wales and the UK Government.

Not unexpectedly, several Members raised the necessity test, and I will not have time to go round all those who mentioned it. Let me clear up the misunderstanding that exists. The necessity test applies only when the Assembly seeks to legislate in relation to England, in relation to reserved matters and in relation to underlying principles of criminal and private law. It has nothing to do with the Welsh Government legislating in Wales on a devolved matter. The necessity test is about when something touches reserved matters and matters that could be deemed to be the responsibility of the UK Government.

I will give a practical, straightforward example relating to the education of a child with special educational needs. If that child, from Wales, is being educated in a school in England, Estyn would naturally have the responsibility for inspecting the provision for that child in the school in England. It would not have the authority to close the school in England, because that would be a matter for the UK Government, but it would have the power to go to that school in England. The necessity test is about making the Welsh legislation effective when it crosses the English border. That is one practical example: there are a whole host of higher education institutions that have bases in England. The necessity test is about making the Welsh legislation effective as it applies to England. That is the scope and the scale of the necessity test. It is about enforcing legislation made by the Assembly.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

Can the Minister confirm that that necessity test is taken from Scots law, where it is used in far narrower circumstances? Ministers are trying to massively broaden it in the Welsh context. Will he confirm that that is the case? Because it is.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Torfaen. The reason I highlighted that practical example was to reject completely some of the accusations that have been made in a number of speeches about not granting the Welsh Government the powers to act in those devolved areas. The hon. Member for Torfaen made a point about legislation relating to horses. That is absolute nonsense as the Bill is drafted.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

Will the Minister give way?

[Alun Cairns]

I would like to give way, but in the limited time I have left I will not. I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman and share with any other interested hon. Member why the example relating to horses is not relevant. I apologise, but I have two minutes left and I want to talk very briefly about the “separate” and “distinct” jurisdictions.

The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd came forward with the very practical suggestion of having the “distinct” jurisdiction governed by the geographical border. However, that in itself curtails the powers of the Assembly when it is enacting legislation in relation to England. That is an example of the complexity here: should we pursue the model presented by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, we would roll back powers. This complexity explains why we are trying to tease out these issues, so that we can bring forward amendments that will work for Wales, but will also work for the UK Government.

In the minutes that remain, I want to talk about the Crown consents, the so-called English veto. I absolutely reject the accusations and the phrase. More than 50 legislative consent motions have been agreed between the UK Government and the Welsh Government over the past five years when the UK Government have touched devolved responsibilities. That is the responsibility of a mature Administration. If the Welsh Government want to act on non-devolved responsibilities, quite clearly a Crown consent would be the mature, natural approach to follow. If it works, and legislative consent motions have worked well over the past five years, in a mature debate, why cannot that work in the other way? The suggestions of rejecting and opposing them would be to grant the Welsh Government powers extending well beyond any other settlement. I do not think that that is what the Labour party wants and it is certainly not what the Conservative party wants. Plaid Cymru might want that, but it has a respected position, which is to seek independence. I do not think it is what the Labour party or the Government want.

[The Chair]

Order. Time has beaten us.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

4. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on future funding of S4C.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with Cabinet colleagues which provide opportunities to discuss a range of issues, including matters related to the funding of services across Wales such as the future funding of S4C.

[Mr Williams]

The Prime Minister said last week at the Dispatch Box that he wanted to

“meet…the wording and the spirit of our manifesto promise”,

on S4C, which stated:

“We would safeguard the funding and editorial independence of S4C.”

In the light of last week’s commitment, may I invite the Minister to make it clear that the Government will abandon the proposed cuts to the DCMS part of S4C’s budget and undertake a review of the future funding needs of S4C?

[Alun Cairns]

We will meet our manifesto commitment to

“safeguard the funding and editorial independence of S4C.”

The hon. Gentleman will have heard the Prime Minister say that we would

“meet…the wording and spirit of our manifesto commitment.”—[Official Report, 6 January 2016; Vol. 604, c. 281.]

He will also remember that on the evening before there was a debate proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) to which the Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy responded by saying that he was looking at the arguments and keen to engage positively.

[Carolyn Harris]

I am grateful to the Minister for mentioning last Tuesday’s debate because I too want to talk about the wonderful consensus that broke out in the Chamber regarding S4C’s funding. Given that consensus, will he remind his colleagues at DCMS that he has a statutory duty to protect S4C’s funding? Will he also join us in offering his personal support for an independent review of S4C?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady took part in that debate and she will recognise the way in which the Minister responded. He said that he was listening to the arguments and that he wanted to engage as positively as he could. I hope that she recognises the spirit in which that was intended.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Last July, the Culture Secretary and the Treasury informed the director-general of the BBC in a letter that S4C’s grant might be cut by the same percentage reduction as the BBC itself and that:

“It will be up to the Government to decide how to make up the shortfall.”

This is therefore not the only Government-driven cut facing S4C. What additional funds will the Government be providing over and above these DMCS cuts?

[Alun Cairns]

As the hon. Lady knows, charter renewal negotiations and discussions are under way at the moment, and I do not want to pre-empt any of the issues that will come out of that. Clearly, there will be a widespread consultation and I hope that she and other Members will engage positively in it.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I understand, of course, that we are facing the BBC charter consultation, but given the BBC’s response in the current situation there is surely now room for cross-party consensus on Silk II’s recommendation that the funding of the public expenditure element of S4C should be devolved to the National Assembly for Wales.

[Alun Cairns]

I do not accept the basis of the question. During my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s discussion that led to the St David’s day agreement, there was not agreement on this issue. We are keen to progress in consensus so that we can take everyone forward. We need to remember that it was a Conservative Government who established S4C, which has been a great success since 1982. I hope that the hon. Lady will share in and recognise that success.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

What complete waffle from the Minister! The Tory party manifesto said only last spring that that party was committed in government to safeguarding

“the funding and editorial independence of S4C”,

yet now we are talking of a cut from the DCMS budget of a quarter of its funding. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State is asking for my question. It is simply this: why will the Government not safeguard the funding, and why is that quarter of the DCMS funding budget still under consideration? It is a disgrace. How can we trust them on any other commitment they make?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady will have heard my answers to the previous questions. I find it a bit rich that Labour Members are calling for extra funding for a Welsh language channel when this morning the First Minister in the Assembly is seeking to defend his position of cutting the budget to support the Welsh language by 5.5%. That is simply a disgrace.

[Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)]

2. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of Government support for small and medium-sized businesses in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

3. What steps the Government are taking to improve rail connectivity to south Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

We are investing in the most ambitious rail upgrade programme since Victorian times. We are committed to electrifying the Great Western main line to Swansea and have agreed to contribute £125 million towards electrifying the Vale of Glamorgan and valleys lines. That will increase services and reduce journey times for passengers across south Wales.

[Nick Smith]

Blaenau Gwent needs good rail links down to Cardiff and across to Bristol for jobs. The flourishing Ebbw Vale to Cardiff line must be part of the core metro system for that to happen. How will the Minister help make sure that south-east Wales gets the modern transport infrastructure it so badly needs?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman has been a strong champion of investment in the Ebbw Vale railway line, including in the new station at Ebbw Vale and the UK Government’s investment at Pye Corner, which has improved access to Newport. The scope of the valleys lines upgrade is a matter for the Welsh Government, but the Department for Transport has made £125 million available specifically for that purpose. To my mind, the valleys lines upgrade stretches from Ebbw Vale to Maesteg and down to the Vale of Glamorgan.

[Byron Davies (Gower) (Con)]

The Government’s investment in the rail network is crucial to businesses and people across Wales and, in particular, in my constituency of Gower. Despite the negativity surrounding electrification from Opposition Members, will the Minister take this opportunity to reaffirm the Government’s commitment to the electrification of the line to Swansea?

[Alun Cairns]

The Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Transport and the Secretary of State for Wales have confirmed that. Only last week, the Chancellor was in Cardiff and restated our position once again. We will electrify the Great Western main line the whole way to Swansea.

[Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (SNP)]

Given that UK commuters spend up to six times as much on rail fares as European passengers, has the Secretary of State made any assessment of the impact of the recent rail fare increases on the Welsh economy?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady should know that there were limits to the recent increases. We need to contrast that with the £3 billion that is being spent on improving rail services to and within Wales, as well as our efforts to ensure that Wales benefits from the national project of HS2 by making Crewe a central hub so that north Wales benefits too.

[Sir Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Does the Minister accept that this investment will revolutionise connectivity in the valleys and on the main line to Swansea? Will he share with the House what assessments have been made of the impact it will have on job creation and passenger journeys?

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend makes a very important point about the economic prospects that will be brought by the significant capital investment that we are bringing forward. It is worth remembering that the last Labour Government left Wales as one of only three countries in Europe, along with Moldova and Albania, without a single mile of electrified track.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

5. What discussions he has had with the Welsh Assembly on the contribution of the M4 to the economy in south Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

We regularly have discussions on a range of issues, including transport infrastructure. The M4 is one of Wales’s vital arteries. The need for an upgrade was identified decades ago by business leaders as a No. 1 priority.

[David T. C. Davies]

The Minister will surely be aware that the ongoing delays on the M4 are causing problems for the economy in south Wales. Will he outline what steps he is taking to enable the Welsh Assembly Government to make improvements to this vital piece of transport infrastructure?

[Alun Cairns]

It is hard to believe that the former right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks was Secretary of State for Wales when the upgrade was first committed to, only for it to be cancelled by Labour Members. It was reconsidered later by a Plaid Cymru Welsh Government Minister, only to then be cancelled. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made additional resources available, and we just want the Welsh Government to get on with it.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

In the light of the serious flooding caused by climate change, will the Minister ensure that the newly proposed M4 relief road will double as a flood defence for the Severn estuary?

[Alun Cairns]

The route is a matter for the Welsh Government, and we encourage them to consider all options. We want the project to start as soon as possible. Even if it started to the earliest possible timescale outlined by the Welsh Government, it would still not be completed until the end of 2022, which is unacceptable.

[Craig Williams (Cardiff North) (Con)]

6. What discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues on proposals for a Cardiff city deal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

10. What recent assessment he has made of the economic benefit to north Wales of the northern powerhouse.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The northern powerhouse, which stretches from north Wales to Newcastle, is reviving the economic and civic strength of our great northern cities. It is central to our vision for rebalancing the economy, and north Wales is already benefiting from large-scale infrastructure investments.

[David Rutley]

Given the proximity of north Wales to the newly established Cheshire science corridor, the positive impact of infrastructure investment—including High Speed 2—and the 871 square miles of opportunity nearby in Cheshire and Warrington, does my hon. Friend agree that north Wales stands to benefit strongly from the northern powerhouse that is being taken forward by this Conservative Government?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. North-east Wales and north-west England form one single economic entity, and businesses in north Wales see the opportunity that the northern powerhouse can bring. When the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), and I met businesses last year in north Wales, they were keen to be a central part of that, and, as my hon. Friend said, HS2 offers great opportunities.

[Graham Evans]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the £10.4 million investment in the reopening of the Halton curve will provide a significant economic boost for north Wales, as well as for Cheshire and my constituency of Weaver Vale, not least because there is a direct link to Liverpool John Lennon airport?

[Alun Cairns]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his work in securing that investment. He championed this project from the outset, and later this year the direct link from north Wales through Cheshire to Liverpool will be operational. That is a tangible demonstration of the northern powerhouse in action.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

12. I, too, welcome the Halton curve and the direct link to Liverpool airport, but does the hon. Gentleman recognise that HS2 coming to Crewe is also important, not just for electrification and the link to north Wales, but to speed up contacts to Manchester airport from north Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

The right hon. Gentleman will be well aware of the rail transport summit that was held in north Wales last year. It talked about how we can best bring forward a bid to modernise the railway infrastructure across north Wales, and we look forward to that bid coming forward. Only last week I spoke to the chair of the north Wales economic ambition board to discuss the progress of that project.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

When I have previously questioned my hon. Friend and his colleague about the potential benefits to north Wales of the northern powerhouse, I have been disappointed to be told of a total lack of engagement on the part of the Welsh Assembly Government. Will my hon. Friend say whether they have changed their stance and are now more plugged in to the process?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for championing the benefits of the northern powerhouse. What is clear is that business sees the benefits. Local authorities also see the benefits. We encourage the Welsh Government to engage positively, because business does not recognise the administrative boundaries between the two.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

The Government’s so-called northern powerhouse will bring no benefit to north Wales unless we see the much-needed investment in infrastructure that the Government have so far failed to deliver. When the Chancellor visited Broughton in July, he promised he would look at rail electrification in north Wales. Six months later, has anything happened?

[Alun Cairns]

Yes, a considerable amount has happened in relation to investment in north Wales. I mentioned the summit that was held last year. We are keen to develop the signalling needed to improve the railway lines. The North Wales Economic Ambition Board is delighted with the support we are giving. We are keen to develop that even further.

[Nia Griffith]

Let us hope that the Government can get on a bit quicker with the electrification than they are on the Great Western main line. North Wales also needs better rail links to Manchester airport. Arriva Trains Wales has proposed a direct service from Llandudno to the airport. Will the Minister explain why, instead of investing in greater capacity on routes to Manchester airport, his colleagues at the Department for Transport have rejected Arriva’s plan, supposedly in favour of extra trans-Pennine services? If the Secretary of State’s place at the Cabinet table counts for anything, what is he going to do about that?

[Alun Cairns]

I do not recognise the premise of the hon. Lady’s question. Significant discussions are going on between the Department for Transport, the Welsh Government, rail operators and other partners about remapping and the franchises. We will happily take positive representations on that

[Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con)]

8. What assessment he has made of trends in the number of workless households in Wales.

Spending Review and Autumn Statement: Wales

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Hollobone, to serve under your chairmanship once again. I thank the hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees) for securing this debate on the Government’s spending review and autumn statement. It is an opportunity to try to answer many of the questions that have been put, and to clarify the great opportunities that the autumn statement brings for our nation.

The Chancellor set out in the spending review and the autumn statement how the Government will deliver economic security, national security and opportunity for Welsh families. In Wales, the Government’s economic plan will build on the improvements made during the last Parliament. Since 2010, only London has grown more per head than Wales; unemployment in Wales has fallen by 26% since 2010; and in the last year alone, employment in Wales grew by more than 43,000. This investment continues to be made in this Parliament. Hopefully Labour Members will agree that the increase in capital funding for the Welsh Government—an increase of more than £900 million, or 16% in real terms, over five years—will support investment projects that matter to Wales and the Welsh economy.

It is interesting that the hon. Member for Neath focused on revenue expenditure, and at the close of her speech she talked about the lack of infrastructure investment. A 16% increase in capital spending certainly allows any infrastructure deficiency to be fixed by the Welsh Government. I suggest that all Members focus their attention on delivery, including the delivery by the Welsh Government of many projects, such as the M4 relief road, the electrification of valleys lines and other capital projects around Wales. When the hon. Lady’s predecessor, Peter Hain, was the Member for Neath, he cancelled the M4 relief road back in 1997. It is hard to believe that despite there being a Labour Administration in Cardiff Bay since 1999, we are still debating the same project, which is vital for the prosperity of Wales, given the commercial opportunities that it would create.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way, and his reply will be very useful to me as somebody who represents the communities in the west of our country. When the borrowing powers were awarded to the Welsh Government, was there a caveat that enhanced borrowing powers would only become available if the money was invested in the M4 relief road, or has that decision been made by the Labour Members in the Welsh Government independently?

[Alun Cairns]

I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman with further details. I can confirm now that the Welsh Government’s power to borrow up to £500 million for capital spending was initially due to start wholesale in 2018. The UK Government recognise that those powers are integral to the delivery of the M4 relief road, so early access to the borrowing powers was facilitated. The hon. Gentleman will know that that happened some years ago, but we are yet to see those borrowing powers being exercised to deliver that vital road project.

The hon. Gentleman will also know that during the recent rugby world cup, many demands and calls were made for that relief road. That is why, as I have pointed out, it was sad that that project was cancelled in 1997, following the previous Government’s decision to deliver that road.

[Craig Williams]

This is not just about the big projects. Our capital city is still without a ring road, and the eastern bay link has been on the cards for many a year. Even when it comes to smaller capital projects, the Welsh Government just do not get on and deliver.

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend highlights another infrastructure project that has been called for. I can certainly remember that project from before the turn of the century. Businesses would welcome it. Bear in mind the resources available: the 16% increase in capital spend gives the Welsh Government the opportunity and the power. Instead of focusing on some of the issues raised today, this debate should focus on delivery by the Welsh Government, because all the resources have been put in their hands. The spending review saw more than just economic investment in skills and infrastructure.

[Glyn Davies]

On the implications of the autumn statement beyond economic development, one of the consequences that was not, I think, specifically announced in the Chamber on that day was a very big cut to the support for Sianel Pedwar Cymru, the Welsh language channel, from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Does the Minister share the disappointment that those of us who love the Welsh language—I know that that includes him—feel about that huge reduction in support? It may have an implication for the BBC’s support for S4C. It is particularly disappointing for the Minister and me because of our party’s record in stimulating the Welsh language and S4C over the past 30 years.

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. S4C is crucial for the vitality of the language, and it creates social, cultural and economic opportunities. It would be wholly improper for me to provide a running commentary on the charter renewal negotiations. They are ongoing, but I am pleased to hear that Tony Hall said that broadcasting in the nations needs to be protected by the BBC, and I would hope that that would extend to S4C.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

The Minister seems to have forgotten a line from his party’s general election manifesto, which said that if elected, his party would safeguard the funding and editorial independence of S4C. How does he square that commitment with what happened in the comprehensive spending review?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady needs to recognise that the amount of funding from DCMS is relatively small. The proposal to cut from £7.6 million to £5 million over an extended period of time provides an opportunity for S4C to make its contribution to the savings. The spending review proposed £400,000 of funding savings from S4C in the first year, but she needs to recognise that negotiations with the BBC are ongoing, and to recognise the statements coming from Tony Hall. We welcome those statements and hope that the BBC will be able to deliver on them.

The Welsh Government’s total funding is underpinned by our commitment to introducing a funding floor, as the hon. Member for Neath said. I would have hoped that she would have welcomed the funding floor, because it was only two weeks before the autumn statement that there was a debate in this Chamber about the need for a funding floor. There was doubt that it would be delivered, but a funding floor of 115% will be introduced. That is well within the Holtham commission’s fair funding range, and I would have hoped that that would be welcomed by the hon. Lady.

[Christina Rees]

I did welcome it, but there are too many provisos in there.

[Alun Cairns]

The surveyor and architect of fair funding for Wales, Gerry Holtham, analysed the position and came up with a range of solutions. After the autumn statement, he said that it was a fair settlement. That is the fundamental point. There will be political commentary from all around, but the person commissioned by the Welsh Government to provide the assessment and establish the financial relationship between the UK Government and the Welsh Government has said that it is a fair settlement, and that is testament to the strength of the Administration in Westminster, which has delivered on something that has been talked about, but never delivered, by the Opposition.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

My apologies, Mr Hollobone, for arriving a minute into the debate. On the 115% Barnett floor, why is it only for the term of the Parliament? What is the Government’s thinking behind that? The Minister will be aware of the worry that there is no long-term commitment. I am sure he will say, “Governments can only bind one Parliament”, but what is his thinking, long term?

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

Having been a Minister, the hon. Gentleman will know that no Government can bind another Government, though I would largely welcome a Government that could bind a Labour Administration, hopefully in the long-term future, to prevent them from pursuing the sorts of policies that they would want to introduce. Clearly, that is not how democracy works. It is obvious that this Administration can only plan for this Administration, and it would be wholly wrong and inappropriate to come up with commitments that bind any future Administration. The hon. Gentleman tried hard to draw something from me, but I hope he will respect the argument that he would be making, were he standing in my position.

I hope that Opposition Members recognise the commitment. The surveyor and architect of fair funding said that this was a “very reasonable” and fair settlement. Any political rhetoric on the issue needs to recognise the comments of that independent commentator.

Another element of the autumn statement enabled the Welsh Government to alter Welsh rates of income tax without a referendum. That offers exciting opportunities to attract new investors, and tax powers to reform the Welsh economy. The Welsh Government can take on more responsibility for how they raise money, as well as how they spend it. The National Assembly will finally take its place alongside other mature legislatures by being accountable to the people it serves. The new tax-raising powers put important fiscal levers in the hands of the Welsh Government, which they can use to grow the Welsh economy, to deliver new opportunities and to attract new investment.

Silk estimated that a 1p cut in the higher rate of tax would equate to a drop in revenue of £12 million. That is only a little more than the Welsh Government reportedly lost selling land in Monmouthshire, for example. Think of the opportunities that the cut of one penny could create: tens of millions of pounds might be spent on business support, or other discrete areas of the Welsh Government. People can now make a comparison: should they pursue one policy, given its cost to the taxpayer, or another, such as reducing the rate of income tax to attract investors and entrepreneurs to Wales?

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The leader of the Conservative party in Wales has opened up the front on this matter by proposing a 5p drop in the top rate of income tax. That would equate to £40 million or £50 million, which is not a drop in the ocean in terms of the Welsh budget. It is curious that the leader of the Conservative party in Wales thinks that that is the best way to incentivise entrepreneurship, rather than investment in infrastructure, the innovation funds and everything else. Why does it have to be a cut in the top rate of tax? How many people on the frontline of our public services, including nurses and the police, have already been cut? Have the Conservatives made those calculations when committing to a 5p cut in the top rate of income tax?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman is demonstrating his misunderstanding, because he compares capital projects with revenue projects. The rate of income tax would affect revenue projects only. These are the sorts of policies that could be presented in a manifesto. People can choose whether they want to see money spent on pet projects of the Welsh Government or a cut in income tax. People will make their choices according to their objectives, but it is up to each political party to make its case. The whole point about the autumn statement is that it empowers the Welsh Government to make the case on whether it should be spending more or less.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Does the Minister think that Jobs Growth Wales is a pet project of the Welsh Government?

[Alun Cairns]

It is up to people to make judgments on what are pet projects. The point I am making is that we are in a serious debate. The opportunity to cut income tax rates is an opportunity to attract more investors and entrepreneurs to Wales.

In the 20 seconds that remain of the debate, I want to scotch any concern about the Barnett consequentials for HS2 funding in the autumn statement. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) has misunderstood the tables presented in the statement. We will happily go through it and write to him with the detail.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

2. What steps he has taken to ensure access to justice services in Welsh.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

It was of course a Conservative Government who introduced the Welsh Language Act 1993, which provided for the use of the Welsh language in the courts system. We are committed to remodelling our courts to make them more cost-effective and efficient, and these changes will give due consideration to the needs of Welsh speakers.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I take this opportunity to extend our sympathies to every nation that has suffered at the hands of IS in recent days, and to express concern at the news of the explosion in south Wales.

I understand that the Ministry of Justice has closed its consultation on the court and tribunal estate in England and Wales, which proposes the closure of 11 courts in Wales, including Dolgellau in my constituency, and that is without undertaking a Welsh language impact assessment, as required by law and under the Welsh language scheme. Will the Secretary of State ensure that a Wales-wide assessment is undertaken and that its recommendations are implemented before any decisions are reached on court closures?

[Mr Speaker]

I thank the hon. Lady, but we are very constrained for time and must move on.

[Alun Cairns]

I am happy to confirm to the hon. Lady that a full Welsh language impact assessment will be included in the Government’s response to the consultation. We are determined to protect the interests of Welsh language speakers, as demonstrated by the Department’s Welsh language scheme.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Over many decades, Conservative Governments have a strong record of supporting the Welsh language. Does my hon. Friend agree that every Department at Westminster, including the Ministry of Justice, should be committed to supporting the Welsh language and the modernisation of Government services, enabling us to give even more support to the language that we in Wales call the language of heaven?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Protecting and preserving our heritage is a core Conservative principle, and this Government, like previous Conservative Governments, have done a lot to secure that, as he rightly mentioned. The Government’s digital agenda provides an opportunity to bring about innovations to enhance the opportunities to use the Welsh language in the courts system and in other Government services.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Access to justice in both Welsh and English is important to my constituents in north-west Wales, but following court closures alternatives such as audio-visual facilities and paying fines over mobiles would not be possible in such areas, in English or in Welsh, because we simply do not have the infrastructure. Can we put court closures on hold until we get that infrastructure?

[Alun Cairns]

Estate reform of the Courts Service must continue, but that is allied to the digital transformation that the Government are bringing about. A total of £69 million has been invested in broadband services in Wales, in addition to European aid and Welsh Government money. We have also announced a consultation on a minimum service requirement for broadband distribution, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome that.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

3. What assessment he has made of trends in the level of inward investment in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)]

5. What effect the hosting of international sporting events has had on the Welsh economy in 2015 to date.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The rugby world cup demonstrated yet again how Wales punches well above its weight in the global sporting arena. It was the most successful rugby world cup in history, generating £316 million for the Welsh economy. There should be no limit to our ambition to build on these successes and to attract more tourism and inward investment to Wales.

[Tom Pursglove]

What steps is the Minister taking to attract even more high-quality sporting events to Wales, such as the Commonwealth games, which would make my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) very happy, as well as people across our great country?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making such a suggestion. It was on a Conservative motion back in 2006 that the Assembly voted unanimously to attract the Commonwealth games to Wales. The next opportunity is in 2026, and I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) is keen on that date and keen to ensure that Cardiff makes a leading bid. The Wales Office is standing ready and waiting to support any bid that comes forward from any part of Wales.

[Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab)]

We were all pleased to see the rugby world cup come to Cardiff. I know that the Secretary of State shares my concern about the delays on the great western railway. What will he do to ensure that such delays do not happen again?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. Immediately after those disruptions occurred, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State spoke with the train operators, who have apologised to him and to the public. Of course, we are upgrading the great western main line, which will make a significant difference in the long term. We also call on the Welsh Government to bring forward their proposals for the M4 in order to improve the infrastructure for those coming to Wales by road as well as by rail.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

6. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of steps taken to rebalance the economy in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

8. What assessment he has made of the effect of changes to tax credits on families in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Low pay has been a scourge on the Welsh economy for too long. Reforming tax credits is an important part of our plan to transform the whole of the UK to a low tax, low welfare, higher wage economy. The Chancellor will set out details of these reforms in his autumn statement.

[Mr Hanson]

What representations have the Minister and the Department made to the Chancellor about the impact on 44,600 people in north Wales and 200,000 people across Wales of the loss of £1,300 per year as a result of his changes? What has he said to the person who is sitting next to him?

[Alun Cairns]

The Wales Office is in regular dialogue with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and the Treasury. The Chancellor will set out how we plan to achieve the goal of a lower tax, low welfare, higher wage economy in next week’s comprehensive spending review. The right hon. Gentleman needs to recognise that the tax credit changes are part of a wider reform that includes increases to the national living wage, changes to universal credit and help with childcare, on which we hope the Welsh Government will follow suit.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is still too much noise in the Chamber. The Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee must be heard.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

12. Will the Minister confirm that while the Government are, of course, listening carefully to any concerns about tax credits, the people of Wales stand to benefit enormously from the increase in the tax threshold, the increase in the minimum wage and the Government’s determination to stick to the long-term economic plan?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. When we move from the basic minimum wage to the national living wage next April, there will be an increase of 7.5%. That means that 100,000 people in Wales will benefit immediately from next April.

[Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)]

9. What assessment he has made of the effect in Wales of the Government’s measures to support small businesses.

Barnett Floor (Wales)

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries, for what I think is the first time. I congratulate the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) on securing the important debate, particularly as it is his first Westminster Hall debate. We have had an interesting discussion and I am grateful to the hon. Members for Neath (Christina Rees), for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), for Caerphilly (Wayne David) and for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones) for their contributions. I will do my best to answer all the points made.

I want to underline that the Government remain committed to delivering the St David’s day Command Paper, which will create a stronger, clearer and fairer devolution settlement for Wales. That, of course, includes the funding floor that the hon. Member for Torfaen and others have called for. The St David’s day agreement led to the draft Wales Bill, which was published on 20 October and is being considered as we speak.

The Bill will build a stronger Wales in a strong United Kingdom by devolving important powers over energy, transport and local government and Assembly elections. It will also make devolution work better, as the Assembly and the Welsh Government will be clear about the powers they have and the challenges to which they need to be able to respond.

I reaffirm the Government’s commitment to the introduction of a funding floor alongside the next spending review. It is worth clarifying the current positon of funding, which is an ever-dynamic environment. The Holtham commission’s report, to which the hon. Member for Torfaen and others referred, was established by the Welsh Government to analyse the relative level of needs in Wales compared with England in 2009 and 2010.

The work by Professor Holtham and his commission has had a significant impact on informing the debate in Wales and I pay tribute to him for his work. The report set out a range from 114% to 117% of comparable English funding per head in which it thought that funding for the Welsh Government would be “fair.”

The report also highlighted that the relative levels of funding provided to the Welsh Government had converged towards the average level of funding for comparable activities in England since the start of devolution. It was therefore interesting to hear the hon. Member for Ogmore talk about the increase in the Welsh block grant from £7 billion to £14 billion, because relative funding for Wales in that period deteriorated. It was from the commission’s range that the Welsh Government claimed that they were underfunded by £300 million back in 2010.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

On the Barnett squeeze, the coalition Government conceded that that had happened in 2012. Why has nothing been done in three years?

[Alun Cairns]

I will come to that point in a moment, but it is worth remembering that the Command Paper, which was agreed by all parties, was published earlier this year and that committed specifically to acting within the next spending review period. As I said, the Barnett floor and spending commitments for Wales will be published alongside that.

The £300 million spoken about compared with a budget of roughly £15 billion. It is also worth noting that when Holtham reported, there was total identifiable spending in Wales of approximately £29 billion.

A lot has changed since 2010, both financially and politically. A joint statement in 2012 by both Governments recognised the resonance of this issue in Wales. In particular, it recognised the Welsh Government’s concerns that their funding would converge further towards English levels. However, joint work with the Welsh Government at the previous spending review confirmed that funding is not forecast to converge during the period to 2015-16. That refutes the points made by several Opposition Members; that was joint work agreed with the Welsh Government. Furthermore, Holtham’s logic also illustrated that the relative level of funding per head had risen, or diverged to use the technical term, and it is now in the range that the commission regarded as fair.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

None the less, the Minister cannot ignore the 78% of 10,000 people responding to a YouGov poll who said that Wales should be funded to the equivalent level of Scotland, which would bring in an extra £1.2 billion.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady, but Scotland’s devolution settlement, and therefore its financial settlement, is naturally different. However, I pay tribute to her for her earlier point, when she asked why Labour did not act in its 13 years in government, when there was a greater divergence between the relative funding in Wales and England, and Wales was getting worse off.

[Craig Williams (Cardiff North) (Con)]

I apologise for joining the debate late and I commend the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) for introducing it. Given Labour’s 13 years of inaction on this issue and the clear commitment the Chancellor has made to dealing with it, may I ask the Minister what the Labour party’s position is on the Barnett funding floor and the Barnett formula in general? I thought that the Leader of the Opposition wanted to tear it up.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that. I smiled as various points were being made in the Chamber that underlined not only the inaction during that period of Labour Administration, but the differing messages that are coming from Labour in Westminster and in Cardiff Bay.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

On the first point, given the intervention from the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) and the Minister’s response, I assume that they are now praising the last Labour Government’s investment and not trying to make out that it was our spending that caused the crash. On the second point, it is quite clear that we see the Barnett floor as a useful first step towards a needs-based solution in the future. There is no inconsistency in that.

[Alun Cairns]

The position has already moved since the hon. Gentleman’s first contribution to this debate.

To make some progress on the specific points raised, a lot of questions were asked about the timing. I remind hon. Members that earlier this year in the St David’s day Command Paper we committed, for the very first time, to introducing a floor to the level of relative funding provided to the Welsh Government, alongside the spending review. This Conservative Government made that historic commitment and we absolutely stand by it. On the question of urgency, we stand by what we said before the election and will deliver that.

The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has admitted that when the Labour party was last in power and he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury he knew that the Barnett formula

“wasn’t fair to Wales and there would need to be changes”,

yet Labour did absolutely nothing about it. I will not accept any crocodile tears from Opposition Members. Although the right hon. Member for Leigh has since made that explicit comment, no action was taken in that whole period other than a diverging funding settlement for Wales relative to the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It strikes me when listening to the Minister that I am not sure whether we are extravagant spenders or penny-pinching individuals. Whichever it is, the money went up from £7 billion to £16 billion, and that does not sound like either to me. Will the Minister answer one point he has not yet answered: does he not agree with Holtham that Wales is underfunded to the tune of £300 million a year?

[Alun Cairns]

The figures of £7 billion to £16 billion have been repeated time and again, but Holtham identified that during that period Wales’s relative position was worse. As I have said, the changes made over the past five years have put current spending in Wales within the Holtham range, as acknowledged by the Welsh Government.

[Carolyn Harris]

Will the Minister assure this Chamber that Wales will not be further disadvantaged in the upcoming spending review?

[Alun Cairns]

The spending review is a matter for the Chancellor. We, as a Conservative Government, are delivering on our commitment to introduce the Barnett floor, as we have announced, alongside the spending review. That commitment was repeated in our manifesto and the floor will be introduced, as announced.

[Wayne David]

The operation of the Barnett formula and the Barnett floor is complicated, but does the Minister accept—this is fundamental to our whole discussion—that at a time of falling public expenditure, when cuts are being made, the Barnett floor is not really an issue? It is only an issue at a time of increasing public expenditure. It is relatively easy for the Government to introduce the Barnett floor now, and I suggest they should, but its real impact will be in the future, when expenditure increases.

[Alun Cairns]

I find it a bit rich that the hon. Gentleman is complaining that a Barnett floor has yet to be introduced when we are committed to introducing it. We said we would do it last March and in our manifesto, and we will introduce it alongside the next spending review. When he was part of an Administration, although Wales’s relative position was deteriorating, absolutely nothing was done to introduce a Barnett floor.

Hon. Members will be aware that since 2010 significant commitments have been made, beyond the Barnett formula, to back the Welsh economy. Those include a commitment to fund and upgrade the great western main line through to Swansea and a significant contribution to the cost of the upgrade and electrification of the valley lines, reinforcing the UK Government’s support for improving infrastructure in Wales. Two years ago, the Welsh Government were given early access to capital borrowing powers to use for M4 improvements.

[Craig Williams]

That is a very interesting point. Not only have we promised the funding floor—and we will deliver it—but we have given the Welsh Government access to borrow money to fix a horrendous problem in south Wales, namely the M4 congestion, by delivering an M4 relief road, yet they are still dithering.

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I can hardly speak to business people or people who travel the border regularly without their complaining about the delays around Newport. We urge the Welsh Government to take the strongest action possible to complete the job of bridging the M4 around the south of Newport.

A new prison is being built in Wrexham, in a £212 million project supporting over 1,000 jobs. Through tax devolution we are empowering the Welsh Government with further levers to support and encourage the growth of the Welsh economy. Business rates have now been fully devolved, something I hope Opposition Members will acknowledge. Stamp duty and landfill tax will be devolved in 2018, as has already been committed to.

We would like progress on the devolution of a portion of income tax, as specified in the Wales Act 2014. Tax devolution will make the Welsh Government responsible for raising more of the money that they spend. Excluding Welsh rates of income tax, the Assembly will be responsible for approximately 10% of all taxes collected in Wales. The introduction of the Welsh rate of income tax would make the Assembly responsible for twice as much, or approximately another £2 billion in revenue. The Government will implement the commitments of the St David’s day Command Paper to build a stronger, clearer and fairer devolution settlement for Wales.

[Jonathan Lord]

I welcome everything the Minister is saying, but, to return to the Barnett floor, may I ask for an assurance that English taxpayers will not be disadvantaged by any adjustments or Barnett floor, and that any money to accommodate a Barnett floor will come from countries that get more than their fair share on a needs basis?

[Alun Cairns]

The specifics on that point will be outlined in the comprehensive spending review by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[Alun Cairns]

With the greatest respect, I need to make some progress in the limited time remaining.

Last month, we published the draft Wales Bill, a key part of providing a clearer devolution settlement. We all want a funding floor for Wales, and it is right that that is accompanied by the devolution of income tax powers, because, by raising more of the money they spend, the Assembly Government will be more accountable to the people of Wales. Since 2010, Wales has recorded the fastest growth per head in the UK outside London, demonstrating the dynamism of the funding and spending position. Wales had the joint fastest growth of all the regions and devolved nations in 2013, with gross value added growing by 3.4%, well ahead of the figure for the UK. It is now time to move the debate forward and encourage the Welsh Government to use both the powers they already have and the new ones they are gaining to drive further growth in the Welsh economy.

Some specific points were raised on funding for local authorities. That is a matter for the Welsh Government—they decide how much money should be distributed to local authorities. I know that many in my constituency complain about how the cake is sliced in Wales, but that is the responsibility of the Welsh Government and it would be improper were this Government to intervene in those sorts of issues.

I underline that this Government are absolutely committed to introducing the funding floor as stated in the St David’s day agreement. We will introduce it as part of and alongside the comprehensive spending review.

Question put and agreed to.

Road and Rail Infrastructure (North Wales)

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) for securing the debate. I pay tribute to him not only for the way in which he presented his case, but for wasting absolutely no time in lobbying the Department for Transport and the Wales Office on arriving in this place. Within two days of arriving, he wanted a meeting with the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), and me to make his case. I pay tribute to him for the effort that he has put into that case in the short time that he has been in the House.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss how 21st-century transport infrastructure can help north Wales to achieve its potential and place the region at the heart of the northern powerhouse. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) and for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) for their interventions. I will try to reflect on their points a little later if time allows.

Since 2010, we have delivered the largest rail investment strategy this country has seen since Victorian times. Both north and south Wales are benefiting significantly from the strategy. Understandably, much attention has focused on our commitments in south Wales, such as the electrification of the great western main line, while the additional funding made available to the Welsh Government for the valley and the Vale of Glamorgan lines has been debated at large. However, north Wales rail infrastructure has also seen its share of investment during the past five years, with the upgrading of the signalling, which my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd mentioned, the improvement of the Halton curve—I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West who worked directly on securing that investment—and the plans and studies currently being undertaken by the Welsh Government for the Wrexham to Bidston line. I will return to some of those subjects a bit later.

North Wales is one of the most dynamic parts of the UK. Its economy has grown by 13.2% since 2010. It is right to highlight that Wales is the fastest growing part of the United Kingdom, but it is also worth underlining that north Wales is growing much faster than the average for Wales. There are currently few better places to invest than north Wales. The north-east Wales integrated transport taskforce has estimated that the north Wales economy is worth approximately £10.4 billion a year, and it is growing. The latest figures show that the north Wales’s economy grew by 3.1%, against an average of 2.5% for the UK.

I am proud of this Government’s record in helping to support the economy right across Wales, and north Wales is no exception, but we need to build on that momentum, which is why the Government have put in place our productivity plan “Fixing the foundations”. In that context, we are determined to ensure that the need for transport infrastructure in north Wales is recognised and that such infrastructure is fit for such a growing economy. There is a need for collaborative investment in developing infrastructure capable of sustaining the long-term economic growth that we are now seeing.

North Wales has for some time been calling for better transport links. I have already paid tribute to some of my hon. Friends who have contributed, but I want to underline the support given by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd in working with the Wales Office to seek a plan for making an effective bid for control period 6. My hon. Friend mentioned that point and I will return to it later. Such lobbying has been heard loud and clear, as it was when I met businesses in Aberconwy and elsewhere in north Wales in August. When I spoke at the CBI north Wales dinner last month, businesses underlined the need for such investment.

Having first-class, modern transport infrastructure will not only support business growth; it will open opportunity, encourage new investment and help people to access the job opportunities, apprenticeships and training that can transform the lives of families and the fortunes of communities. We are already working to deliver that across north Wales.

We have taken steps to improve cross-border links between north Wales and northern parts of the UK. Last year, £10 million was committed to the Halton curve. I have mentioned the role of my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West in that. That project is reinstating a direct rail link between north Wales and Liverpool. That has been welcomed widely by businesses and the passenger community alike. It is part of our plan to deliver a stronger, more prosperous northern powerhouse, in which north Wales is a key part.

This opportunity must be seized. I want to see joint working between north Wales, the Welsh Government, local enterprise partnerships and local authorities on both sides of the border. The Mersey Dee Alliance also has a role to play, as do the train operators. We need to use the investment in the Halton curve to deliver the optimal service pattern to transform the opportunities that I have mentioned.

We are committed to line speed improvements through the north Wales re-signalling programme. That is a significant scheme that should not be underestimated. It is expected to deliver journey time savings of up to eight minutes. That improvement will lay the foundations for further modernisation and electrification of the north Wales main line.

Likewise, the Wrexham to Bidston line is a key line for supporting enterprise and employment on Deeside. I am pleased that the Welsh Government are considering the economic benefits of investing in the line and a number of other options in north Wales. I look forward to working with them and the Department for Transport on bringing about satisfactory and positive outcomes.

It is worth recognising that HS2 will bring significant benefits to north Wales. It will reduce journey times to Crewe and create opportunities for other links because of the extra capacity that it will provide. HS2 is vital in providing extra capacity on the national rail network, which is straining under the weight of the huge growth in passenger numbers over the past 10 years.

Clearly, modernisation of the north Wales main line would be a significant boost to the region’s transport links and maximise the benefits to be gained from the planned high-speed line between London and Crewe. We must ensure that everyone is aware of the opportunities that that creates for north Wales and the importance of the cross-border infrastructure that links in to other activity on the rail network.

It is vital that we prepare the most robust business case possible that identifies the strongest possible cost-benefit ratio of upgrading the line. I will return to the cost-benefit ratio. We have to think in terms of outcomes and identify the key building blocks that will pave the way to electrification. Now is the time to influence control period 6, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd referred. This is a window of opportunity to identify the means by which tangible benefits to the network will be brought about to improve the passenger experience.

We must find answers to questions such as how we can provide more frequent services, how we can cut journey times across the network, and how we can improve the signalling and modernise the line. I am keen that we learn from other bids to the Department for Transport and the Treasury that have been successful. One such example, “Norwich in 90”, focused on the outcome of cutting journey times between London and Norwich, rather than on any particular technology. The bidders identified what they wanted to achieve, then found the best way of achieving it. We must focus our attention on the cost-benefit ratio, which is currently low compared with other projects. That is an objective, mathematical formula, and we need to strengthen the case around it.

The north of England electrification taskforce’s report “Northern Sparks” was an interesting addition to the debate because it examined for the first time the economic benefits of modernising rail infrastructure. The Welsh Government and north Wales authorities were involved throughout the preparation of the report, alongside interested parties from across the north and across political divides. That collaborative approach ensured a clear understanding about the interaction of services from north England and into Wales. We need an effective collaboration on modernising rail infrastructure in north Wales.

Politicians from Westminster and Cardiff Bay should continue to work together with business leaders and councils to make the case for transport infrastructure investment. We need a clear set of priorities, a clear plan of action, and clear funding commitments that focus on that cost-benefit ratio while also highlighting the economic opportunities that will be released.

[Guto Bebb]

Does the Minister agree that the upgrading of the north Wales main line is crucial to the development of the proposed nuclear power station in Anglesey? We need to move skilled workers from all parts of north Wales to the opportunities that will exist at that development.

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an important point and highlights the private sector’s role in strengthening the case—particularly the economic case—for such upgrades. That is an excellent example.

Together with my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd, I am grateful to the North Wales Economic Ambition Board for organising the summit next month—yet another example of the board’s commitment to promoting a collaborative, cross-party approach to achieving economic success in north Wales. I pay tribute to the tireless work of Councillor Dilwyn Roberts on behalf of the people of north Wales. I am also grateful to Edwina Hart, a Minister in the Welsh Government, for the approach that she has taken, which is another example of what can be achieved on a joint basis. The North Wales Economic Ambition Board will be key in making that case, along with other organisations such as the Mersey Dee Alliance, and the summit next month will help us to identify what case to make to the Department for Transport and the Treasury.

The northern powerhouse is a key priority for this Government. The Chancellor has said how important north Wales is to that dynamic, and a key rail and road infrastructure plan is vital to that northern powerhouse and to north Wales.

Question put and agreed to.

Capel Celyn Reservoir (50th Anniversary)

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

As always, Mr Gapes, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I thank the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts)for securing this debate and pay tribute to her for raising such an important historic and emotive issue for the people of Wales.

Let me say at the outset that the whole situation was a shameful chapter in Welsh history and it should not be forgotten. In fact, the words “Cofiwch Dryweryn”, or “Remember Tryweryn”, painted on a wall in Llanrhystud, outside Aberystwyth, are instantly recognisable to people across Wales as they travel between the north and south. Those words remind us all of some of the darkest and most regrettable days in modern Welsh history. I am aware of the long-running campaign to have that sign declared a national monument, and I pay tribute to the work of the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who has championed that. It is one for the Welsh Government, but the strength of feeling among people in Wales should certainly be heeded.

Those words, “Cofiwch Dryweryn”, speak of one of the darkest times in modern Welsh history, when members of one of the last Welsh-only speaking communities were forced from their homes to make way for a reservoir to provide the city of Liverpool with additional water for its people and industry, as the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd highlighted. I welcome Liverpool City Council’s apology for its actions. I commend Lord Roberts of Llandudno for working with the council to ensure that that apology was forthcoming.

As the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) mentioned, communities in Wales had previously suffered hardship to provide water. The village of Llanwddyn in Powys was flooded to make way for Lake Vyrnwy in the 1880s. During the passage of the Bill, there were protests from all corners of Wales—from local authorities, churches, individuals, community groups and the charitable sector. Members of all parties criticised the Bill and all Welsh MPs from all political parties, bar one individual, voted against it. The voice of the people of Wales was ignored, however, and sadly the Bill passed.

As the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd said, Afon Tryweryn was flooded in 1965, despite a fight by the villagers and their supporters. Twelve houses and farms were submerged, as were the church, the cemetery, the post office and the local school, with 48 of the 67 people living in the valley losing their homes. Let me be clear: the flooding of Afon Tryweryn was a dark day in modern Welsh history, and I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to try to defend it today.

Those incredible events arguably started the momentum for Wales to have more control over its own affairs. Last year, the Wales Office celebrated the 50th anniversary of the creation of the post of Secretary of State for Wales, a post that the Prime Minister continues to believe is required to provide a strong Welsh voice at the Cabinet table. Soon afterwards, the Welsh Office was established to complement the work of the Secretary of State, and it took on more and more responsibility for Welsh issues from other Departments in Whitehall.

In 1997, Wales took another massive step forward, voting to establish the National Assembly for Wales. This body, directly elected by Welsh people, took on responsibility in vital areas such as planning, water and the Welsh language. In fact, I can still remember, upon being elected to the Assembly in 1999, debating the details of the break-up of Hyder, the company that owned Welsh Water. It led to the sell-off and then the transfer to Western Power Distribution, which led to Glas Cymru. It was sold for £1. That allowed for an innovative model: Welsh Water has no shareholders, so any surplus can be reinvested for the benefit of Welsh customers. The model is unique to the United Kingdom. It provides greater diversity of business models in Wales and around the rest of the country.

In 2011, following an overwhelming referendum victory, the Assembly became a full law-making body. The provisions of the Wales Act 2014 provided for the political institutions to become more responsible and responsive. In what some might argue as appropriate timing on the 50th anniversary of Tryweryn, a new Wales Bill will be published shortly. It will deliver on the commitments to further devolution to Wales made in the cross-party St David’s day agreement in areas such as energy and the environment. The reserved powers model will also provide additional clarity over what the Assembly is responsible for and what this Parliament is responsible for. It offers to provide a clearer, stronger and fairer devolution model.

In the 17 years since they came into being, the Assembly and its Executive, now rightly labelled the Welsh Government, have developed into mature political institutions, elected by the people of Wales to carry out their will in devolved areas. Ignoring the views of the people of Wales in flooding Capel Celyn was and is still seen as incomprehensible by most. Put simply, it would now be impossible. I want to pay tribute to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd for securing the debate. I specifically want to refer to water in my response and address the calls that Wales does not have power over water as it stands.

The St David’s day agreement clearly stated that water is now being considered as part of the joint Government review programme following the second Silk commission. There are significant complexities because the Wales boundary does not tie in with the Welsh water boundary, and Welsh Water, ironically, has powers over some water supplies in Cheshire. Such matters need to be resolved and teased out. I do not want to reject absolutely the calls that the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd has made, but the issues will be considered at length and in greater detail as part of the joint Government working review programme,

The debate has been extremely important. It has enabled us to reflect on some of the darkest days in Welsh history. However, I do not think we can deny the interdependence that we have across the border. Many comparisons have been made with Scotland, but there is a large geographical area between the urban conurbations of Scotland and those of northern England. In Wales, particularly north-east Wales, there is a free-flowing border, which adds to the complexity. So the model for Scotland is not necessarily the right model for Wales.

The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd used the prison in Wrexham as an example, but I take that as a positive example. Our interdependence creates greater economic opportunity for us in Wales to provide the services and skills that are necessary to fulfil the needs of people in Wales, England and the rest of the United Kingdom. I thank the hon. Lady and other hon. Members for their contributions to one of the most powerful debates that I have sat through in Westminster Hall. It is something we will never forget.

[Mike Gapes (in the Chair)]

I call Liz Saville Roberts for a few minutes to wind up the debate.