Draft Wales Bill

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Craig Williams]

May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson, and to take part in my first Welsh Grand Committee? I would say that I will be brief, but along with many words we have spoken today, it seems that in the Grand Committee, the word “brief” does not quite mean what I thought it did. I hope to contain my remarks.

As a Member of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I would like to pay tribute to our Chairman. He has brought Members within and across parties together on many of these issues.

The hon. Member for Swansea East is the only Member I know who could get away with claiming the architecture of devolution and then go on in the same breath to complain how complex it is. It amuses me no end but she carried it off with her usual charm.

I support the process through which the Bill has come forward. I had to pinch myself on a couple of occasions during the debate to remind myself that we are discussing the draft Bill. We are not discussing the end Bill, which I am sure will dominate the Welsh Affairs Committee and the normal legislative process in the House once we get it. This is a draft Bill and that is the way I have approached it, with the constructive criticism that a lot of people from all parties have brought to the Wales Office. It is not just that. It seems to have taken Welsh academia and the Welsh Governance Centre by surprise that we are talking about constitutional issues and are again seeking to empower Wales a little bit more.

I was 12 years old at the time of the 1997 referendum and I have no doubt that when my grandchildren are 12 they will still be talking about a separate jurisdiction. The genie is out of the bottle. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd for the way that she approaches the issue in a clear and concise manner, and I understand completely where Plaid Cymru comes from, although I disagree fundamentally with her on most of the points she has made in Committee and, more broadly, in the Chamber. We need to understand as Welsh politicians that it is okay to disagree and to disagree forever. I cannot see how we think we are all going to get round a table and finally agree forever on Welsh devolution. That is simply never going to happen and is an aspiration that none of us should share. As a proud Welshman and a Welsh MP, I love Committees. I love joining Committees, I love serving on Committees and I love setting up Committees. I just think we need to be mindful of this constitutional journey we are on. There will be no terminus, no end, but there will be significant movements, and this is one of the most significant that I have seen and studied.

Of course, this is the beginning of the process and it is always interesting to hear calls for people to pause at the beginning of anything, but during this draft stage it is very welcome. I do accept the premise of my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West about the piecemeal nature of devolution. Is it where we want to be? I do not think so; it is not where I want to be as a proud Welshman in terms of protecting the Union forever. The United Kingdom has a glorious unwritten constitution which has worked for a couple of years, and I suppose we are just seeing the nations in this Union coming together now and stapling. I recognise where the constant call is coming from with Plaid Cymru but I am bemused and confused at the noises—

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

I am very interested in the hon. Gentleman’s comment about being uncomfortable with the piecemeal nature of devolution. He must surely then support the idea of constitutional convention.

[Craig Williams]

I do not at this moment. I can see the argument for looking holistically at the Union, at the four nations and how to draw this together within our glorious unwritten constitution, but the political calls for that being made at the moment are tied to the Bill and efforts to pause it, and not for good reasons. I understand the broader opinion about protecting the Union—I take it that the hon. Gentleman is a proud Unionist, as I am—but I do not accept that we should link that to the Bill and further powers for Wales. This is an important juncture for Welsh politics and the Assembly, and we should crack on and take a pragmatic approach.

The Wales Governance Centre and academia have commented on the Bill, but what are we going to do as a nation if we cannot draw together? It seems to me that the Government come up with ideas, happily produce them for public scrutiny, take it all on the chin, then everyone reacts. There is never a response along the lines of, “This is what we as a Welsh nation, academics and legal experts have come up with after consideration.” It should not take anyone by surprise that we are in this position. The onus is on those people to come up with more practical solutions—or just some solutions, not constant entirely negative feedback.

Briefly—I have fallen into my own trap straightaway, as I am not very brief—in this regard, my Labour fan, since we are picking fans from alternative parties, is Lord Morris of Aberavon. His clear view on the single jurisdiction is out there. The starkness of what the First Minister has said—and is saying—is not apparent to me. I do not know why we keep referring to the single jurisdiction. What does the shadow Secretary of State mean by “distinct jurisdiction”? I did not get a clear and concise answer—she requested one from the Secretary of State—and I am more than happy to give way if she has come up with a meaning.

That is the nub of the issue. What on earth is a distinct jurisdiction? If it is a different jurisdiction, we have that in housing in Wales. The Assembly has cracked on and, in layman’s terms, we have a distinct jurisdiction on housing law as it comes through the Assembly and as it develops. We are talking about only 3% of UK —England and Wales—laws; 3% are effected by the Assembly. Why on earth are we looking at getting that 97% down to the Assembly? It simply does not make sense to think about a separate jurisdiction, and it does not make sense to go for a distinct jurisdiction. It sounds like a political soundbite in the run-up to the Assembly elections. I get the political sentiment behind the proposal, but I do not get any sense of a legal rationale.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

It is pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. It is also a pleasure to participate in my first Welsh Grand Committee.

I want to engage in a spirit of pragmatism and problem solving, which is needed particularly when we are dealing with what are often relatively technical issues. To an extent, there is an opportunity to take some of the politics out of this and to adopt a positive, problem-solving approach, and it is in that spirit that I make my speech. I also defer to colleagues who have been involved for far longer than I in some of these areas, so I am not going to dive down into the weeds of some of the issues.

The benefit of being a relative newcomer is that one is perhaps more able to apply a common-sense test, and that is where the red lights start to flash for me. I see a real risk of what I would call constitutional red tape. I know that the Conservative party is a great enemy of red tape and is passionately committed to removing it whenever it possibly can, so let us examine some of the red tape of the Bill, which contains a 34-page list of 267 powers. I feel convinced that if someone in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills came forward with a new proposal for regulating business in this country and it consisted of 34 pages of 267 new sets of regulations, the Secretary of State for Wales would be jumping up and down and ringing alarm bells. The Bill really does not pass the test for which we are looking: streamlined, well co-ordinated, smooth and effective government.

[Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab)]

Never mind our test, that clearly fails the test of the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills of one rule in, two rules out.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. It an issue of clarity, common sense and making progress. The message that the Secretary of State for Wales has received from both sides of the Committee, and from our very own favourite AM, Mr David Melding, will be heard loud and clear. The critical point is to ensure that the Bill is not made in London, but is developed in collaboration with Wales. I welcome all the feedback that has been given today.

The lack of clarity also means that we run the risk of the Bill being questioned from the point of view of politicising the approach. For example, clauses 13 to 16 state that Westminster will retain control of ports with a turnover of £14.3 million. Lo and behold, that means that Milford Haven would remain under UK Government control. To my knowledge, the Secretary of the State has not made it entirely clear—it is not clear from the Bill —why it is necessary for Milford Haven to remain under Westminster’s jurisdiction. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would want to make that clear in the Bill and to dismiss any damaging speculation that it might be because the Government are preparing to privatise the port.

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful and interesting speech. May I allay his fears on this point? One of the voices that has not had enough air time in this whole constitutional debate is that of the business community. However, on the issue of ports, and especially a large, strategic energy port such as Milford Haven, the voice of the business community came through loud and clear. This is entirely to do with UK strategic issues, despite any scaremongering that we might hear from the hon. Gentleman or his political colleagues regarding potential privatisation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the Secretary of State for his intervention and welcome the clarity that it brings. I am trying to make a broader point: when there are gaps, loopholes or a lack of understanding, they open up the risk of speculation about the motives behind a policy. That is why clarity is so important and I cite that example simply to illustrate that risk.

The necessity test is another prime example of how the Bill risks creating uncertainty and ambiguity. We must take with the utmost seriousness the quote by our favourite Assembly Member, Mr David Melding, about the possibility of legislative gridlock, or the very basis of legislative function being compromised.

All hon. Members in the room will recognise the broader point that politics and politicians are not always and universally held in the highest regard by the public. Anything that looks as if it might mean more and more Committee meetings, more and more bureaucracy and more and more legislative ping-pong between Westminster and Cardiff has the potential to bring the Assembly and this place into disrepute. I am sure that all Members would not want that to happen. Although the hon. Member for Cardiff North has told us how much he enjoys sitting endlessly in Committees, I am sure that he agrees with that point.

My final specific concern is about ministerial consent and the risk that this process is seen as tantamount to an English veto. We must be absolutely clear that the direction of travel for devolution is more devolution and more decentralisation. The referendum in Wales in 2011 made that clear and we need to recognise the democratic voice of the people of Wales in that context. Anything that looks as if it may be a way—even through the back door—of pulling powers back from Cardiff to London must be treated very carefully indeed and could again create concerns, with some speculating about a possible hidden agenda.

I conclude with the broader point that I sympathise with the Secretary of State for Wales because I feel that he has been asked to take on the task of creating something very important, even though, as hon. Members have said, it might not be what gets the average constituent of Aberavon out of bed in the morning. It is very important because it is about saving the United Kingdom. I am proud to be Welsh and I am very, very proud to be British. I believe passionately in the integrity of the United Kingdom. In a rapidly globalising world, with huge challenges coming at us from all angles, the last thing that we should be doing is diminishing the role, power and influence of the United Kingdom on the global stage.

The draft Bill must be seen in that context. We are not talking in isolation about reserved powers, the necessity test and the question of distinct or separate. We are talking about the architecture of the United Kingdom. The debate around the Scottish referendum was, of course, very passionate, but it demonstrated that the constitutional foundations upon which this country is built are cracking beneath our feet. The main reason why they are cracking beneath our feet is because we have had this piecemeal, sticking-plaster, botch-it-and-scarper approach to building our constitution over the years. That is why we need a constitutional convention —so that the things we are discussing today can be discussed within a broader context.

I know that the Secretary of State for Wales is an avid fan of rugby, our favourite and national sport. In some ways, he has been asked to define the rules at the breakdown of the ruck without having any sense of the broader rules of the game of rugby—the offside rule, passing backwards, the knock on, or whatever it might be. So many issues are in the framework of what we are talking about today, and they are the broader debate within which this debate must exist. The result of a lack of clarity is the kind of constitutional red tape to which I referred.

In conclusion, this plea for a constitutional convention is not at all about what the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire, who is no longer in the room, said with regard to kicking this into the long grass. It is not at all about wanting a pause and a broader discussion because we do not want to take the hard decisions—quite the opposite. Labour Members want to take the hard decisions because we wish to save the integrity of the future of the United Kingdom. If we do not adopt the radical, bold solution of a constitutional convention that leads to a full—and, in my view, written—constitution, with a clear definition of powers that defines where the English regions fit in with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, we will find, in 20 years, that this great United Kingdom will no longer exist.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Thank you, Mr Hanson, for chairing this Welsh Grand Committee so ably, and I echo the comments that have been made about Mr Owen, who chaired this morning’s sitting. I thank right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions and for the largely positive way in which the debate has been conducted. We have had the odd tense moment, but there has been a remarkable change in the culture of the Welsh Grand Committee, certainly compared with some of the sittings I attended in the past.

As the Secretary of State said at the outset, we want a constructive debate about the draft Wales Bill, to inform the improvements we will make before the Bill is introduced. The Committee has certainly agreed about the principle involved, but there has been some disagreement about the detail and the wiring, to use a phrase used by the Secretary of State. That only underlines how complex and difficult this process is. Some of the suggestions we have heard—I will come to them in a moment—are flawed.

According to many members, the answer is to call for a constitutional convention. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire said that that could well be a method of kicking the matter into the long grass. There is only one example in modern history of a convention or a commission to examine the UK settlement: the Kilbrandon Commission. It was set up by Harold Wilson in April 1969 and it reported in October 1973. It had 16 volumes, 10 research papers and it ended inconclusively. That is a warning that some hon. Members may wish to bear that in mind when they call for a constitutional convention. It does not address the fundamental issues that we are trying to resolve.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I agree that we cannot just press “pause” on the world and wait for a constitutional convention. However, there is no reason why such a convention could not be started while we deal with some of the urgent issues that need to be tackled. The argument that, because something may not have worked in the past, it should not be tried in the present is deeply reactionary. I hoped that a more progressive point of view would be expressed.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful for that point, which I accept in the spirit that the hon. Gentleman intended. I intended partly to give a light-hearted example of a constitutional convention, and partly to probe the motives of some who call for such a convention to ascertain whether they really want a Bill.