Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Wednesday 12th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I beg to move,

That Ms Kathryn Hudson be appointed Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards on the terms of the Report of the House of Commons Commission, HC 539, dated 17 July 2012.

The motion is in my name and that of other House of Commons commissioners and of the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), the Chair of the Standards and Privileges Committee.

In 2003, the House decided that the office of Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards should be held for a non-renewable term of five years. The appointment of the current commissioner, John Lyon, comes to an end on 31 December, and the House therefore needs to appoint a new commissioner.

It is appropriate to begin by expressing the House of Commons Commission’s appreciation of the work undertaken by John Lyon since his appointment. He inquired into an unprecedented number of allegations against Members at a time when the reputation of the House was being called into question. He helped to restore confidence in Members and in the institutions of the House. He will also be remembered for bringing up to date the procedures for the commissioner’s inquiries and, in particular, for the greater transparency he introduced, with the House’s agreement, by publishing information about inquiries that were not reported formally to the Committee on Standards and Privileges. I am sure the House will wish to join me in expressing our gratitude for all the work he did in this role.

There has been a thorough and rigorous recruitment process using standards equivalent to those of the Commissioner for Public Appointments. This has involved the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) and the right hon. Member for Rother Valley, the Chair of the Committee on Standards and Privileges, as well as members of the House of Commons Commission and an independent adviser. All the details are in the report that sets out the Commission’s nomination. I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who took part in the selection process, particularly Judith Alderton, who acted as the independent assessor. It is therefore with confidence that I commend this nomination to the House.

Kathryn Hudson is currently the deputy parliamentary and health ombudsman and was previously the national director of social care at the Department of Health. The House of Commons Commission is confident that she has the necessary experience, clear thinking and personal authority for the role, and that she will bring to it the independence, discretion, and strength of character required to ensure that the system of parliamentary self-regulation continues to work effectively.

Should the House approve the nomination, Ms Hudson’s appointment will commence at the beginning of 2013. The work load of the commissioner has already declined somewhat with the transfer of responsibility for Members’ pay and expenses elsewhere, and it is anticipated that Ms Hudson will generally work on a half-time basis—rather less than the basis on which John Lyon was originally appointed. I stress that the new commissioner will be able to increase her commitment if the work demands it. She will, I am sure, fulfil the high standards set by her predecessors, so I commend this nomination to the House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 14th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

7. What proposals the Commission has to make it easier for hon. Members and staff to cycle to the parliamentary estate.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

The House actively encourages cycling to work: officials work closely with the bicycle user group to review facilities for cyclists; a scheme is in hand to increase the number of bicycle parking spaces from about 250 to about 350; the House supported and enabled the establishment of the Barclays cycle hire station at Abingdon Green; a Dr Bike free maintenance check is available, as are facilities such as showers, lockers, bicycle tools and pumps—more showers will be provided this autumn; and, finally, there is a loan scheme for staff which can be used to buy cycles and safety equipment, and a cycle to work salary sacrifice scheme for staff is being implemented.

[Mr Speaker]

I have no idea what more there could be to ask, but I have a feeling that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) will have an idea.

[Dr Huppert]

I thank my hon. Friend for that list. It is good to see that the House is taking some steps towards promoting cycling to work here, but more could be done to ensure that cycle parking is covered, that bikes are available for hon. Members and staff to borrow for short trips around central London, that cycle training is available for those Members who do not know how to ride a bike and would like to learn, and that people no longer need a pass to exit this place by bike.

[John Thurso]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for his lengthy but good list of aspirations. I know that he is a highly committed co-chair of the all-party group on cycling and was a leading member on the parliamentary bike run last Tuesday. I am sure that the members of the Commission and the management board, and the director general responsible, will have listened attentively to his requests and will do everything possible to implement them.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Does the Commission believe that closing the road outside the Houses of Parliament would greatly assist in trying to promote cycling?

[John Thurso]

It is a subject on which the Commission has not yet deliberated but, as the hon. Gentleman has raised it, I am sure that the Commission now will.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Charging for Access to Parliament

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from ‘risk’ to end and add

‘and invites the Commission to reconsider its current proposal to charge for Clock Tower tours.’.

I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing the debate and on speaking to his proposition so passionately and eloquently. May I first correct one or two small points of fact? I am not actually the Chairman of the Commission, and Members of the House did vote for him, because it is ex officio the Speaker. He is always the Chairman of the Commission. I am merely its representative, tasked with speaking on occasions such as this and answering my hon. Friend’s many very good questions.

I should like, if I may, to divide my hon. Friend’s motion into two parts. I shall speak initially to the first part of it, with which I entirely agree, and then to the second part, with which I have some difficulties. I will then suggest to him that he and other hon. Members might like to accept my amendment, which I hope is a gracious way forward that will enable the Commission to take on board all the points made in the debate, reconsider the matter and see how best to accommodate what has been said.

May I pick up on a couple of points that have been made? My hon. Friend spoke about the waste of food. I am a qualified caterer—it was what I used to do for a living, and I am a fellow of a variety of professional bodies. Food wastage here is below the average for professional caterers. At the end of the day, there are always things left over on a plate, and they get thrown away. There is always a degree of food wastage, but the wastage here is at a much lower level than in many commercial companies and the House works extremely hard to keep it down.

[Thomas Docherty]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will also note that there has been more wastage in the evenings, because there are fewer Members here owing to the Government having no business and therefore constantly running a one-line Whip.

[John Thurso]

The hon. Gentleman might say that; I think I will move rapidly on.

On the first part of the motion, I thank my hon. Friend for succeeding, in one debate, in giving more publicity among Members to the savings programme than I have managed to do in the past 18 months. In fact, the process began shortly after the election and continued through 2010. I have carried out a number of consultations and had the honour of speaking to various party groups. I have twice been honoured to appear in front of the 1922 committee. All the points that have been set out in the current savings programme were contained in the consultation documents that were put out, as they were in e-mails, reminders and a number of surgeries for which I made myself available. The Commission and the management have tried very hard to consult Members on all aspects of what is proposed.

[Mrs Main]

It was the hon. Gentleman, of course, who responded to my inquiry about the ongoing and additional costs of breaking up our sitting and coming back for two weeks in September. Has he made any further progress on that? There could be a massive saving in one lump.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Thurso]

I cannot update the hon. Lady on that point at this particular moment.

At a time of national austerity, when we are seeking to reduce the cost of public services to the taxpayer, it is absolutely right that Parliament and parliamentarians are in the vanguard. Indeed, it would be absolutely wrong to exempt ourselves from that process.

[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

I appreciate that my hon. Friend is trying to gain consensus, but I fear he is failing. I was on the Administration Committee, and I was bored to tears and managed to escape. May I ask him when the House agreed to the total savings programme that his Commission is forcing through?

[John Thurso]

The Commission put forward the overall figure of 17% savings in real terms during the summer of 2010. That figure informed all the documentation that has come out since, and it is the target. I actually hope that we can go further than that, because the process has demonstrated that many of the ways in which we do things have remained unchanged for many years, decades even. When they have been properly examined and re-engineered, it has been found that there are real and considerable savings to be made, not only monetary savings but increases in the efficiency of our work patterns.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[John Thurso]

I will.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. May I remind the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) that he is up against the clock, and that when he gives way he is not getting any extra time?

[Jake Berry]

How can we be talking about charging people for tours of Big Ben when we still have people who work in the House occupying grace and favour mansions at the taxpayer’s expense?

[John Thurso]

I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, but you have just reminded me, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I have substantial progress to make in a very short time, so I will move on.

In 2004-05, the estimate—our total cost—was £189 million. In 2009-10, it was £278 million. Even taking out the one-offs and exceptionals, that was an increase in excess of 25% in the cost of this place in five years, more than twice the rate of inflation. This year, the out-turn is expected to be in the order of £205 million to £206 million, which is a substantial saving. The programme has been undertaken by the Management Board, and I think it has done an excellent job of examining very professionally what is going on. I see that the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) is leaving her place, but before she does so, may I say to her that I do not believe there are too many managers here or that they are distant from those at the bottom? The board is well constructed and does its very best to ensure that it is in full touch with both the staff and Members’ needs.

There is no question, nor has there ever been, that access to the Palace and the parliamentary process will be charged for at any time. However, I put it to hon. Members that we get more than £1.5 million in income from tours. We have been charging for summer tours for 10 years, and we are piloting art tours for which we charge £15. I say in parenthesis that the other place charges £30 for its tours—I do not know whether the art is better. We have a long history over the past 10 to 15 years of opening up the parts of this place that are not available to the public for a variety of reasons, and recovering the specific costs of doing so. I put it to my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow that what we are proposing for the Clock Tower is very much in line with that principle.

I invite my hon. Friend to accept my amendment, which would allow the Commission and the Finance and Services Committee, which I chair, to consider the points that he has made, take them on board and return with an appropriate proposal. I ask him and other hon. Members to accept that as a better way forward. The answers to all his other questions will have to wait for another day.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jackson]

I will not give way, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me.

We must keep that access free, because it sends an important message. If we do not, we could find that only the wealthy, the well connected and businesses will have access to the mother of Parliaments. That would be a sad day, and a tragedy for democracy. It would further undermine people’s faith and trust in us. Let us imagine that a husband and wife and their two children get on the train in my constituency of Peterborough and pay £90 return each to come to London. Why should they have to pay £15 each to visit the Clock Tower? Why should we charge them an extra tax to visit part of the political and historical heritage of this country, one of the most famous buildings in the world? I do not believe that that would be right.

We need to explore the governance that has led to this proposal, because it has not involved ordinary elected Members. This feels like the script for “The Da Vinci Code”, because it is not open and transparent; far from it. I also reject the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso). His remarks have been erudite and eloquent, as ever, but I nevertheless smell an establishment stitch-up.

[John Thurso]

May I tell the hon. Gentleman that on this occasion his sense of smell is a touch out? What he should be smelling is a desperate attempt—if I can put it like that—by those of us who are in charge of these things to seek to accommodate the views being expressed. I put it to him, to the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) and to his other hon. Friends that I really am seeking to arrive at where they want to go.

[Mr Jackson]

I take on board the hon. Gentleman’s comments, but one of the points of the Backbench Business Committee, if it is not to become the nobbled shih tzu of the Executive, is to ensure that the emphatic will and opinion of the House is sought on certain matters. We voted on such matters on Monday. Today we are looking at the thin end of a wedge; a precedent could be set that would result in our constituents being effectively excluded from part of the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. If the House divides on the motion, we must be emphatic in making it clear that we are not minded to enter into any kind of long-drawn-out scenario of kicking this matter into the long grass, and that we need to make a decision now. We need to set our own precedent. This is the people’s Parliament; they have paid for it through their taxes and they should have free rein here. We represent them, and we should be mindful of their opinions. We should keep the status quo.

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to sum up the motion proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). One thing that can certainly be said of my hon. Friend is that he has his finger on the pulse of public opinion.

[John Thurso]

I have listened carefully to the debate, and I have talked to the Commissioners who are present. We have agreed that were the hon. Member for Harlow to accept my amendment, the Commission would ensure that there was no charge for entry to the Clock Tower during the current Parliament. We cannot, of course, bind successor Parliaments. As written, however, the motion is such that it might affect other parts of the important savings programme to which the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) referred, and we should therefore prefer to listen to the will of the House on this occasion in order to preserve the greater good of the programme.

[Martin Vickers]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow and I will agree to support the amendment, but one thing I have learned in my short time in the House is that, when I am on my feet, the fact that I might repeat something that has been said, or the fact that the outcome is inevitable, should not stop me saying what I intended to say. I shall therefore take advantage of my moment in the sun to make a couple of comments, if I may.

As has just been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow, those of us who support his motion recognise that savings must be made. A number of important issues have emerged from the debate, most notably the urgent need to consider other possible areas of savings. Grace and favour accommodation seems to be at the top of most people’s hit lists, and that may well be one of the areas that should be considered.

My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) spoke of schoolchildren imagining her working in Big Ben, and, in a rather strange way, it is a symbol of our democracy. I remember coming up from Cleethorpes on my first visit to London at the age of eight, and one of the photographs in my album shows me with the Clock Tower in the background. The Clock Tower is capable of sparking people’s interest in the whole democratic process. That is something extremely valuable, and something that we should not lose.

Bearing in mind the offer that has been made, I shall cut my remarks short. I was going to urge the House not to support what I had described in my notes as a “Sir Humphrey amendment,” but, of course, Sir Humphrey has ways of achieving his ends in the end. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow and I are prepared to accept the amendment, with the on-the-record statement that no charges will be made, at least for the period of this Parliament.

Amendment agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House accepts the need to make financial savings, but considers that the fundamental principle that the House of Commons is a people’s Parliament should not be put at risk; and invites the Commission to reconsider its current proposal to charge for Clock Tower tours.

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

6. How many apprentices are employed in the House of Commons service.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

There are currently no apprentices employed by the House service, although two are employed by Parliamentary Information and Communications Technology as software developer apprentices. The last group of three apprentices in the Parliamentary Estates Directorate completed their training in 2010 and have subsequently been appointed to permanent posts. Catering and Retail Services has offered a two-year apprentice chef scheme, but there have so far been no successful applicants. The House service is keen to employ more apprentices and continues to take steps to do so.

[Robert Halfon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Will he take further steps to work with the charity New Deal of the Mind and support and encourage other MPs to employ apprentices in their own offices?

[John Thurso]

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for that suggestion. Employment by MPs is not a matter for the Commission, of course, but certainly the House will do everything it can to assist in such efforts. I am sure that as he has put the matter on the record, colleagues will be aware of his very sensible suggestion.

The Leader of the House was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

Preliminary estimates for the first quarter of 2011 suggest that we are well on track to achieve the initial savings of some £12 million which were identified this time last year. The HOCC is committed to reducing spending by at least 17% by 2014-15, and the detailed work on that stage of the savings programme is currently under way, with a consultation taking place during the autumn of Members, Members’ staff, House staff and others.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful for that answer, and I know that both you, Mr Speaker, and the hon. Gentleman are committed to the House doing our bit. Has the HOCC had a chance to study the Administration Committee’s report on catering and retail services, and does the hon. Gentleman agree it is vital that we not only raise more revenue where we can but save costs by, perhaps, trying to merge those services from the two Houses?

[John Thurso]

I have indeed had an opportunity to look at the report, which contains many good proposals. On the two specific points, I can tell the hon. Gentleman, first, that raising income will be a vital part of our future plans. Secondly, on shared services, this already happens in respect of both Parliamentary Information and Communications Technology—PICT—and estate services. I am sure that the authorities of both Houses will be looking to maximise this, as it is a sensible way to save money.

The Leader of the House was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

1. Whether the House of Commons Commission has made an estimate of the monetary value of the residential accommodation provided for officials situated outside the secure part of the Commons estate.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

Outside the secure area, the House holds a long lease on a residential flat at 102 Rochester row, which is valued at £540,000 and has an annual rent of £440. A freehold property at 22 John Islip street, which is used as hostel-style overnight accommodation for staff supporting sittings of the House, is valued at £600,000.

[Thomas Docherty]

Perhaps I could press the hon. Gentleman. Given that we now have far fewer late-night sittings and that after the next general election we will have 50 fewer colleagues, perhaps now is the time to evaluate whether we could move those beds into the estate and make some real savings for the public purse.

[John Thurso]

The Commission is very alive to seeking savings within the accommodation budget. There are a number of possibilities that may arise in the future and these are kept under active consideration.

The Leader of the House was asked—

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

6. Whether the House of Commons Commission has considered the merits of redistributing used IT equipment to charitable organisations.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

This matter was last considered shortly before the 2005 general election. The House received advice that accounting regulations required the recovery of the residual value of publicly funded assets when they were disposed of. For that reason, the possibility of charitable donation was not pursued and the assets were resold after having any data and software removed.

[Stephen Mosley]

I thank my hon. Friend for his response. Is he aware that the House of Lords allows the redistribution of old IT equipment to charities, and will he ask the Commission to reconsider its 2005 decision?

[John Thurso]

Perhaps I could point out to my hon. Friend that the total for Members’ equipment recovered to date is £75,000, which is approximately half its total value. The House of Lords has far less equipment, and it is of lower value, and can therefore take a different view. However, we will consider the matter at the end of this Parliament.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. Whether the House of Commons Commission has assessed the likely effects of enabling Members of the House of Lords to use facilities of the House of Commons.

[John Thurso]

Currently, all peers have access to some facilities in this House. Peers who were formerly Members of this House have access to a wider range of facilities here, and the House of Lords has a reciprocal arrangement for former Members of that House now in this House. The recent Administration Committee report on catering and retail services in the House makes some recommendations on widening access for peers, especially in the dining rooms at lesser-used times.

[Mr Sheerman]

The hon. Gentleman will know that that report is quite honestly full of some pretty absurd suggestions about the closure of facilities that this House of Commons values very highly, including the major cafeteria in Portcullis House in the evenings. There are almost 800 Members of the House of Lords, and rising, but there are going to be only 600 Members of Parliament. Our facilities, dedicated to Members of Parliament, are already under great pressure, and to open up all of them to another 800 Members would make life for most elected Members very difficult.

[John Thurso]

As I understand the report, that is a suggestion rather than a full recommendation. The House of Commons Commission will consider the report in due course, and I am sure that representations from the hon. Gentleman, and from other right hon. and hon. Members who might wish to make any, will be fully considered at that time.

The Leader of the House was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 28th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

5. What assessment the House of Commons Commission has made of the potential for use of renewable energy technology on the House of Commons part of the parliamentary estate.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

In 2005, a study was conducted on the potential for solar photovoltaic and hot water systems on the roofs of the Palace of Westminster. However, it was ruled out because the financial payback was 125 years and the equipment had a life expectancy of 30 years. The current mechanical and electrical project has already installed new energy-efficient pumps and motors, and the medium to long-term plans include solar photovoltaics, greywater harvesting, borehole water cooling, and combined heat and power.

[John Mann]

We do not want windmills here just as much as I do not want them cluttering the landscape of Bassetlaw, but there must be scope for solar energy, and not least for air source heat pumps, in the Palace of Westminster. Is it not time that we got our act together and started using renewables far more on the parliamentary estate?

[John Thurso]

I am very happy to be able to agree with the hon. Gentleman and to inform him that these issues are at the heart of the project that is ongoing within the Facilities Department. All of these options are considered for ongoing programmes and where repairs and renewals are undertaken or where capital investment is made.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend agree both that much has changed since the earlier assessments, not least the Government’s recent announcement that public bodies will be able to benefit from feed-in tariffs, and that rather than looking to the medium to long term, we ought to be taking a much more urgent approach to achieving renewable energy for the parliamentary estate?

[John Thurso]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question, and, indeed, the infrastructure to accommodate the measures I referred to in my first answer will be installed to take advantage of the technologies as they mature and as paybacks improve, as they currently are doing.

The Leader of the House was asked—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

8. What recent progress the House of Commons Commission has made in improving the recycling of paper and other materials used on the House of Commons part of the parliamentary estate.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

The amount of waste recycled in 2010-11 was 49.2%, and the amount of paper and cardboard that has been recycled has more than doubled since records started in 2002. The two Houses are due to let a new waste collection contract this summer, and this will require the contractor to work in partnership to meet the waste reduction and recycling targets set by the House. The new contract will also include a pilot scheme to recycle compostable waste.

[Mr Hollobone]

What are the recycling targets set by the House, and can we not do far better than we are doing at the moment?

[John Thurso]

Parliament’s recycling target for office waste was set at 60% for 2010-11. The actual recycling rate achieved in the year was below target, at 49.2%, largely because of a significant reduction in the recorded amount of glass waste and, thus, in the proportion of total office waste recycled. The House is looking to recycle 75% of office waste by 2020-21.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

9. What the cost to the House of Commons Service of the rifle range on the parliamentary estate was in the latest year for which figures are available.

[John Thurso]

The range is situated in the House of Lords, so there is no direct cost to the House of Commons other than in respect of that percentage of the estate which is paid for by the House of Commons.

[Diana Johnson]

Given the continued sniping about some of the family-friendly measures that have been introduced, such as the crèche, and the need for the House of Commons and the House of Lords to make cuts to their budgets, are we not shooting ourselves in the foot by continuing to pay for a rifle range in the House of Lords?

[John Thurso]

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for her attempt to brown the covey, but I suggest that she has to take a more targeted approach. This is a matter entirely for their lordships.

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

8. What recent assessment he has made of the performance of the House of Commons nursery; and if he will make a statement.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

The nursery opened on 1 September last year and was inspected by Ofsted on 1 February, and achieved an overall assessment of “good”. Ofsted rated it as “outstanding” for the effectiveness of the setting’s engagement with parents and carers. The nursery has 40 places and is planned to reach its break-even point of 28 places within three years. Currently, 12 places are filled, and a further eight children are registered to start within six months, making a total of 20.

[Mr Chope]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that answer. Will he tell us the average taxpayer subsidy per place at present for the day nursery?

[John Thurso]

This year the cost of the nursery will be approximately £50,000, but it is on track to break even ahead of schedule, and thereafter, as was planned by the Commission in bringing forward the nursery project, it will have no impact on the public purse—indeed, it will be a very modest net contributor to the House’s funds.

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 20th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

2. What assessment the House of Commons Commission has made of the effects of its savings programme on the ability of Committees of the House to scrutinise the work of the Executive.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

A guiding principle of the savings programme, as agreed by the Commission and the Finance and Services Committee, is that it must not damage the ability of the House to scrutinise the Executive. The Commission is confident that the savings being made in 2011-12 will adhere to that principle and enable Committees of the House to continue to fulfil their vital scrutiny role, and this is a matter that we will keep a close eye on.

[Hugh Bayley]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new role. I understand why the House is making savings, but we would not find it acceptable if budget cuts prevented a quarter of our Members from travelling to Westminster to attend debates or Committees. A few of our Select Committees exist specifically to scrutinise the impact and effectiveness of Government policies and expenditure abroad. Does the House of Commons Commission accept that it is sometimes essential for those Committees to travel to other countries, and that, when they do so, none of their members should be excluded from their meetings?

[John Thurso]

The hon. Gentleman is a noted member of the International Development Committee. There will be £800,000 for Select Committee travel in 2011-12. That is a substantial sum of money at a time of financial stringency, and the Commission believes that it will be sufficient for those occasions on which an overseas visit makes an essential contribution to an inquiry. The Committees that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned will have a clear claim to be making essential inquiries, but the way in which the budget is used is ultimately a matter for the Liaison Committee.

[Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his post as well; he will do a good job. Is he aware that younger, and—dare I say it?—more progressive Members of the House scrutinise the Executive using social media such as Facebook and Twitter? Twitter is free. Will he give us an unequivocal commitment that Members should be able to use Twitter to hold the Government to account?

[John Thurso]

I deeply regret to inform the hon. Gentleman that I am a dinosaur when it comes to the Twittery thing; I really have not a clue how it works. May I discuss the matter with him later to find out exactly what he is talking about?

The Leader of the House was asked—

--- Later in debate ---

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

7. What progress the procedural data programme has made on the provision in electronic form to the Official Report of the text of answers to parliamentary questions.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

On 16 December, the procedural data programme board agreed to the project initiation document for a pilot project on electronic delivery of answers. That pilot is due to end in March 2011. The project team will produce a report recommending next steps, which the board will consider in May.

[Jo Swinson]

I was astonished to learn of the inefficient process by which—in the 21st century—written answers are published in Hansard. They are typed in the Department and delivered by hand to the House as a print-out, at which point the Hansard reporters have to type them again. I am glad that the Commission is considering changing the process, but may I urge it to do so quickly, and to recognise that short-term costs such as the cost of the necessary software will be outweighed by long-term savings in staff time?

[John Thurso]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her approval of the steps that the Commission is taking. The process is somewhat complicated, not least because no two Departments use exactly the same technology when preparing answers, and a large amount of business analysis must be conducted to produce a sufficiently detailed understanding of their working practices. However, resource expenditure of £34,970 has been invested in the project, and we will work as expeditiously as possible to arrive at a resolution.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we would save a huge amount of money if written answers and early-day motions were published electronically rather than being printed?

[John Thurso]

A key part of the savings programme as a whole is considering all the instances in which the use of electronic media would improve the service to Members and reduce costs, while also having the environmental benefit of reducing the use of paper. The Commission certainly intends to consider those matters.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones]

I would indeed hope that that would be the case.

I do not wish to continue in the same vein, because my point has been made. Indeed, it was made by the former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), and many others. However, it is a sad reflection that the Government are choosing to wipe away so many centuries of history and to send the message to the people of Wales that they are sending. I do not believe that democracy will be better for this proposal. I do not believe that this proposal will better enable the people of Wales to be represented in this place, and I fear for the consequences of this measure.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I rise in support of amendment 183, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy) spoke to so eloquently. I hope he was not referring to me when he said that his hon. Friends behind him had come armed with formula and fact, because I do not have those to hand. However, in supporting the amendment, I want briefly to address the principles behind it.

What we have in this debate is a straightforward collision of principle. The first principle that the Government have put forward in the Bill is that of equalisation. I have absolutely no problem with that general principle, for many reasons. It will certainly help administratively, as well as with the burden of work. There are many reasons to support that argument, but there is one that I would not have particularly supported, which is the idea it addresses a democratic deficit, because it most certainly does not. It might enshrine some of the inequalities that first past the post delivers, but it will certainly not make anything more democratic. As a broad principle, however, for equal work across the constituencies, the principle of equalisation is a very good one.

At the same time, we have long accepted an equal principle in our constitution, which is that of community, which is often related to geography. In fact, the very first speech of any substance that I made in this Palace was one that I made at the other end, of the building on exactly that subject, when I argued that we cannot have a representative democracy without considering community and geography, in addition to the mathematical numbers of people involved.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that by supporting the cross-party campaign to keep Cornwall whole, this Parliament will be demonstrating that it is listening to the people of Cornwall? We have a golden opportunity in this Parliament to rebuild citizens’ confidence in our democracy and to ensure that MPs can earn their respect. In respecting the aspirations of the people of Cornwall, with our distinct culture, history and language, we will be taking a step in the right direction and building confidence in this Parliament.

[John Thurso]

My hon. Friend makes a very full point, although I would not wish to engage with her directly because I want to be brief and allow other Members to take part.

[Mr Michael McCann]

(East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab): Some eminent historians have already participated in this debate, so I will go for some other quotations. Groucho Marx said, “Here are my principles, but if you don’t like them, I have another set here.” In the light of the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), may I ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) how he can reconcile the exceptions for the Western Isles, northern isles and other areas when the Government are sticking rigidly to an arithmetical formula in this legislation?

[John Thurso]

The hon. Gentleman begins to make the precise point that I wish to develop, which is that this Bill already accepts the principle that there are geographical areas or communities that are either too disparate or too distinct simply to be left. There is nothing against that principle in the Bill. One could have argued—historically, it would have been easy to do so—for the old Norse principality of Orkney, which included Caithness. We could have gone back to Caithness, Orkney and Shetland. The Government have recognised that certain geographical difficulties make it important to have regard to them when building constituencies.

[Chris Bryant]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Thurso]

If the hon. Gentleman will let me first develop my argument, I will happily give way.

We have heard today from both sides of the House a variety of examples of why the two principles have worked in tension against each other for the benefit of the country. My broad argument is about removing that, suggesting an arithmetical figure, and making two exceptions. The exception of size is almost irrelevant, because it would change the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber and mine, and Inverness would probably disappear. In the tension between those two principles, which have been dealt with by the Boundary Commission and through inquiry, we have broadly arrived at a workable set of solutions. Therefore, like the amendment, I urge that we take a similar approach while respecting all the Government’s principles.

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman is making a splendid case. Some of us believe that his constituency should be called Thurso. He wants us to support his amendment, which we are happy to do, but I hope he recognises that it might be better not to make allowances just for named constituencies, but to allow greater flexibility throughout the country so that wards and communities do not have to be split. He would then have to vote for our amendment.

[John Thurso]

I am receptive to the hon. Gentleman’s argument. However, if he knew my constituency, he would know that saying it might like to be called Thurso is probably the worst insult that could be delivered to the Royal Borough of Wick and to Wickans. May I put it on record that I am entirely content with Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross—or however much of Ross I may end up with?

There is a clear need for the Bill to be amended and if, given the lack of time, we cannot achieve that, I sincerely hope that the other place will take a long, strong and hard look at it. This is the sort of constitutional change that simply must not be allowed to slip through on the back of an electoral pact.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

I want to speak to several amendments that I tabled in this group. Amendments 188, 193, 189 and 192 all refer to issues that arise in the context of Northern Ireland. This group includes other amendments that address issues that arise in the context of Wales and the Scottish islands, and constituencies that include such areas. There is also an amendment relating to the Isle of Wight.

My amendments are not about “ferrymanders” for constituencies with many islands, nor are they about “valleymanders” because of the geography of Northern Ireland, but they address two points. One is the principle of having a distinct quota in Northern Ireland. Amendments 9, 200 and 202 would give the four boundary commissions four discrete electoral quotas for the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. I have no issue with that, and I agree with it in principle, although I am not here to legislate for other parts of the United Kingdom.

I tabled amendment 192 because the Government seem to have set their face against separate electoral quotas for constituent parts. It calls for a distinct Northern Ireland quota. If the seat reduction goes through, we will end up with about 15 constituencies. Because the boundaries will be changed every five years, according to the UK quota arithmetic, it could be that under the Sainte-Laguë system for distributing seats to the four constituent boundary commissions the following boundary review might reduce the number of seats in Northern Ireland to 14, and the boundary review after that, depending on what happens with registration, might raise the number again.

Chopping and changing the number of seats in Northern Ireland every five years without any regard to either a sense of equality or a quota that relates to Northern Ireland’s particular circumstances has difficulties. My amendments, which are specifically about Northern Ireland, could stand so I ask the Government to consider them even if they combine to defeat the other amendments, which sensibly and correctly call for discrete quotas. If separate boundary commissions are to be given particular tasks for particular areas, they should at least be mandated to produce a specific quota for those areas.