Animal Torture: Online Videos

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of (1) the availability of animal torture videos on the internet, and (2) whether existing legislation is sufficient to punish people in the United Kingdom who are involved in the creation or promotion of such content.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

We are aware of the prevalence of appalling animal cruelty videos online and take this issue very seriously. The Animal Welfare Act 2006 is commonly used to tackle domestic animal cruelty and it is an offence under the Communications Act 2003, which can be used to address offensive material being circulated online, be it from the UK or not.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, the recent reports about the global network to encourage and film the torture of baby monkeys for profit were harrowing. Internet users wanted to see animals hurt with pliers and hammers and set on fire, and then they were paying to watch the results. My noble friend Lord Stevenson’s amendment to the Online Safety Bill sought to add such severe animal cruelty to the list of priority offences, but it was rejected by the Government. I have read the Hansard, and it seems to me it was rejected because it was too difficult. Does the Minister agree that if an offence is illegal offline, it should be illegal online? If the Government are not prepared to include this in that Bill, will he commit to work with Defra to bring in the necessary animal welfare legislation?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The debate on this matter in Committee on the Online Safety Bill was well attended and certainly well received. The purpose of the Online Safety Bill is to intervene between the platforms on which the distressing images are published and the users who see those platforms. It is, first, for human beings and, secondly, for their experiences online. The appalling instances that the noble Baroness referenced, particularly in the BBC documentary, would themselves be covered by either the Animal Welfare Act or the Communications Act, both of which make those criminal offences without the need for recourse to the Online Safety Bill.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, these offences are bad enough by themselves, but does the Minister accept that there is a direct connection between animal cruelty and violence towards humans? If so, is this not yet another reason why the Government should use the Online Safety Bill to combat animal cruelty offences and make this a priority offence under the Bill?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I join the whole House in absolutely deploring these behaviours. The concern about adding animal cruelty offences to the Online Safety Bill is that it is a Bill built around the experiences online of human beings. To rearchitect the Bill around actions perpetrated or commissioned on animals runs the risk of diminishing the effectiveness of the Bill.

[Lord Trees (CB)]

My Lords, needless to say, the behaviour referred to in this Question shows indescribable cruelty to animals. It is extremely concerning that anybody should do these things or, indeed, want to view them. It urgently emphasises the need for better regulation of the internet to reduce the danger of copying behaviour. Is the Minister aware—I fear that the noble Lord has just made him aware—of the increasing evidence that malicious cruelty to animals is a precursor, and can lead, to violent and abusive behaviour towards humans? Is this not another indication, were it needed, of why we need to better regulate the internet with regard to cruelty to animals?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the argument that increased cruelty to animals promotes further bad behaviour, including violence between humans, but I stress the point that the purpose of the Online Safety Bill is to bring into law a range of limitations on what can be published and what can be seen online by human beings. There are laws that effectively criminalise cruel behaviour to animals and the action of publishing evidence of cruelty to animals online; those laws just happen not to be the Online Safety Bill.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister says that the Government are against cruelty to animals, yet we have just heard that the present legislation does not stop it. Is it not the case that we need regulation that will prosecute and convict people involved in these practices? Can he tell us how many people have been prosecuted so far this year for animal cruelty?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I have the numbers prosecuted for animal cruelty in my notes somewhere; I will happily write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, at the moment the law we have been talking about has been preventing those who are perpetrating the harm and publishing it, but is there any merit in going after the people who are watching it and paying for it and have it on their computers—the consumers who ultimately are generating the harm at the end?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. I stress that laws preventing these behaviours are already in existence, and the Online Safety Bill supports those laws in some sense. If content is illegal, platforms are obliged to take it down. If content creates a risk of harm to children, again, platforms are obliged to take it down. In the case of the largest platforms, the so-called category 1 platforms, if content violates their terms of service, they are obliged to take it down.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Minister’s central argument is that we do not need any amendments to the current Bill because these offences already exist, surely the response is that they are clearly not working because, from all the evidence we have heard, this cruelty is continuing. If the existing legislation simply is not working, surely the option of providing new legislation is precisely what is required.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not accept either that the existing legislation is not working or that, if it is not, the way to fix it is to make an amendment that redirects the Online Safety Bill in such a dramatic and fundamental way.

[Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl)]

Does the Minister not agree that, on the basis of what has been said in the House today, there is clearly a problem? There appears to be some disagreement over exactly how that problem is to be solved, but does he agree that if there is a problem, it needs to be solved sooner rather than later?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I certainly agree that there is a problem. I am afraid that over the course of a year, the Social Media Animal Cruelty Coalition documented about 5,500 individual links to videos containing animal cruelty on the major platforms—YouTube, Facebook and TikTok—but globally the number of views of those incidents exceeded 5 billion. So I agree that there is a problem but I do not accept that the solution to it is a radical change to the Online Safety Bill, as was debated in Committee. I am open to working with my colleagues in Defra on what a more effective solution might be.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Is the Minister aware that he is very lucky that my almost namesake, the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, is not in the House today, otherwise he would be in dead trouble?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I am grateful for it.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

Would it be of help to my noble friend to consider that what we have heard today clearly sets out a difference between a crime of being cruel to an animal and what he proposes to bring forward in the Online Safety Bill? If in the Bill he simply added at the appropriate point—I am not familiar enough with it to know at exactly what point, but he will know—the words “and all sentient beings”, would that not include some of the animals we are talking about? It would not cover them all since there are other living creatures that would not be regarded as sentient, but certainly primates would be, and they have been mentioned today. Would that help my noble friend? Clearly there is a difference. I say this as someone who had ministerial responsibility many years ago for the welfare of farm animals. Would that not solve the problem? Could he at least explore it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I am happy to explore all creative and inventive solutions to the very real problem of reducing not only cruelty to animals but people’s deplorable enjoyment of that cruelty.

Deafblindness: Emerging Technologies

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of Cradley]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the possibilities of emerging technologies to create new opportunities for people who are deafblind.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

The Government are continually reviewing and assessing the possibilities afforded by new and emerging technologies, particularly to support disabled people or anyone with specific access requirements. We believe we can achieve this by promoting bold discoveries, growing the economy, and being at the cutting edge of assistive and accessible technology—ATech. Our ambition is to make the UK the most accessible place in the world to live and work with technology.

[Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, today is Helen Keller’s birthday. Born in 1880, she was both deaf and blind, and was one of the most well-known deafblind people in history, as she campaigned tirelessly. That is why this week, the week of her birthday, is when Deafblind Awareness Week takes place.

I thank the Minister for his reply. There are more than 450,000 deafblind people in the UK, and Sense predicts that, by 2030, that number will increase to more than 600,000. Will the Government commit to increasing their work with major technology companies such as Google, which is actively co-creating assistive technology with and for people with complex disabilities? In particular, will the Government support those people with complex disabilities who are looking for work with the equipment that they need by the introduction of a fund to ensure that adequate assistive technology is available in all jobcentres?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising her Question this week, which is, of course, Deafblind Awareness Week. I take this opportunity to pass my very best wishes to those who suffer from the affliction and those who work with them.

The Government are working with providers of technology of all different sizes in this space. The noble Baroness referred to Google’s new centre for technology for disabled people, which highlights its recognition that the UK is the right place for it to operate in this market. I could point to a number of fascinating new innovations by smaller organisations, but I will restrict myself to just one: BrightSign has created a life-changing AI-based smart glove, giving voice to the voiceless by enabling sign language users to communicate without an interpreter.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister rightly identified that there are many excellent technologies using smartphones and tablets that are designed to help those who are deafblind achieve greater independence. I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, on raising this Question during Deafblind Awareness Week. What co-ordination role does the new department, DSIT, have in this respect—there are many departments, and a couple have been mentioned already—and what resources does it have to help with training and information on these vital technologies?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

As the noble Lord rightly points out, identifying the appropriate technologies by scanning the horizon for those that will be of most impact and use is, and must be, a cross-governmental matter. I take every opportunity to urge my fellow Ministers to fight the good fight in this respect. DSIT’s role is as the provider and exemplar of technology use to all of government and the public sector, and indeed all of the UK, but all government departments recognise their responsibility to continuously identify ways to use technology and to make technology in the United Kingdom as accessible as it can possibly be.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I support the points that the noble Baroness made and note the staggering figure of 450,000. Would it be possible for the Minister to extend the review to include work undertaken at universities? There may well be scope for co-ordinating that work to help not only them and deafblind people but those in the commercial sector who are looking for new ideas.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

DSIT works extensively across universities on this and other programmes. In addition, the Government commission a range of research, particularly in the area of deafblindness, not least, for instance, into the procurement of hearing aids by the NHS.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, we on our Benches very much welcome the research and development that is taking place, and the pretty unprecedented pace at which new technologies become available. However, this poses a challenge, not just for government departments, charities and individuals but for wider society. To pursue the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I would like to pin the Minister down a bit more on what he sees as his department’s role, and that of the Department of Health and Social Care, in accrediting and procuring these emerging technologies. He seems to suggest that departments should just get on and do it themselves, without any plan or strategy. That cannot be right.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. I certainly hope my remarks did not come across as me asking other ministries to merely improvise in this space. DSIT can contribute in three very important ways under the structure of the science and technology framework, the ambition of which is to make us a science and tech superpower by 2030. We can make three distinction contributions: first, by growing the economy overall through the use of science and technology; secondly, by driving innovation in all areas; and, thirdly, and most pertinently to this Question, by ensuring that the technology developed in this space is always as inclusive and accessible as it can possibly be.

[Lord Borwick (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a trustee of the Ewing Foundation for deaf children. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that the progress of most children with sensory disabilities has been excellent, mainly due to dedicated teachers and modern electronics, such as cochlear implants, hearing aids and sound fields? However, these have to be maintained. Would it be a good idea for schools regularly to test their electronic equipment provided for the pupils to make sure it is working?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the question and pay tribute to his ongoing work in this space. Supporting deaf children through the use of audiological equipment involves a range of government agencies, including the NHS, schools and local authorities’ social care teams. If a child is deaf, NHS audiology services work with multidisciplinary teams, which include teachers for the deaf, paediatricians, speech and language therapists, and cochlear implant teams, as well as the parents and guardians, and between them they agree individual management plans. Children who use audiological equipment based on this plan should of course be offered regular appointments with their audiology team to check their hearing and ears and to ensure that their audiological equipment is working and adjusted as necessary.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister is right in recognising that smaller companies are developing technologies for the deafblind, without using the internet, combining spectacles and hearing aids. The important point is that, when these technologies reach maturity, they are available to people who are deafblind. Digital technologies for the deaf, for instance, are currently not available on the NHS and are quite expensive on the private market. We must make sure they are available on the NHS when these technologies mature.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I suppose the structural problem overall is that those who find themselves disabled, with whatever disability, are in a very small group, and the smaller the group, the more difficult it is for manufacturers of equipment to provide for them in a commercially viable way. The Government have a number of levers they can pull in this space: first, by commissioning research directly; secondly, by the public sector procurement programme—we spend on average £1.5 billion every year on procuring ATech; and, finally, by working with partner organisations, such as UKRI and Innovate UK, to seed and fund emerging technology in the ATech space.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Is the Minister aware that the excellent “Strictly Come Dancing” winner, Rose Ayling-Ellis, who is herself deaf, has proposed that BSL lessons be given to everyone freely? What is the Government’s response?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I very much enjoyed the interview on the radio today to which the noble Lord refers. The British Sign Language Advisory Board has been established to help advise the Government on the implementation of the British Sign Language Act 2022, which legally recognises BSL as a language of England, Wales and Scotland. It is important to note here that the BSL board has a reserved place for a deafblind person, and an additional member of the board is deaf- blind. We look forward to receiving and acting on its advice in this space.

Emergency Communications

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent]

To ask His Majesty’s Government (1) when they became aware of yesterday’s fault with the 999 emergency system and (2) what action they are taking to ensure the resilience of emergency communications.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

A technical issue with the 999 public emergency call system was reported to us at 9.20 am on Sunday 25 June 2023. This issue has now been fully resolved and the service is running as normal. A full investigation is under way to understand what caused this problem. Ofcom has formally requested information from BT, using its existing powers as the independent regulator. The Government are conducting a post-incident report to identify actions that will strengthen the resilience of the 999 public emergency call service.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, this is an incredibly disconcerting event. We all rely on the 999 emergency number as our ultimate safety net at times of distress and vulnerability. Any failure in the system will undermine faith in our emergency provision. We are seemingly very fortunate that there was no major incident yesterday morning. Can the Minister inform the House whether this eventuality—the loss of the main 999 capacity—has been tested in any training exercise for major incidents? Are the Government clear on what the potential risks associated with the use of the back-up system are, and what risk there might be to public safety as a result of the system’s failure?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Following the failure of the system, three strands of investigation have been put in place. First, BT is performing its own internal investigation. Secondly, Ofcom is engaging directly with BT, which it is required to regulate. Thirdly, based on the findings of those two, there will be the Government’s lessons learned approach. The combination of all those will allow us to learn lessons to improve future resilience of the system.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, one of the worrying things about this incident is not the failure of the main 999 service itself—although that is bad enough—but the failure of the back-up as well. The Minister will know that I have raised the issue of the changeover from analogue to digital on a consistent basis, particularly BT’s digital voice changeover. This changeover from analogue to digital creates huge risks. Will the Minister say whether the incident report will also include a wider look at the changeover from analogue to digital? There are huge risks involved in this. This is critical infrastructure, and in the case of emergency, it is even more important that we have an analogue back-up to our digital services.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I pay tribute to the noble Lord’s frequent correspondence with me on this subject and recognise the importance of what he says. I do not want to prejudge the findings of the deep root-cause analysis that will now be going on at both BT and Ofcom level, but I will make sure that that question is at least asked, and asked forcefully.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

The Minister must be deeply troubled that not one but two critical technology platforms in our national security infrastructure have failed in a very short space of time—the Border Force as well as 999—and, in each case, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has just said, with no immediate back-up coming into play. Will the Government ascertain whether any deep common causes underlie these failures and, therefore, what other parts of our national technology structure, not just our national technology security infrastructure, may be at risk?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed, I recognise the risk that the noble Lord describes. One of the absolute priorities must be to identify whether there is a broader systemic risk of which the unfortunate events yesterday were a symptom or whether this is isolated; the ongoing investigation will absolutely establish that.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register, in particular that I chair the National Preparedness Commission. As we understand it, this was a failure of the 999 system itself. What consideration have the Government given to circumstances in which there is an interruption in electrical power? That could mean, first, that there will need to be reliance on analogue systems—as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones referred to—but also that most domestic landlines will cease to function and, within a couple of hours, so too will most mobile phones, because masts will no longer have power.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

It will be an area covered by the report. I stress that, from the information that I have so far, BT was able to implement its disaster recovery planning and system and return, albeit at a slightly slower pace, to the ability to answer 999 calls. I very much take the point that the wrong combination of catastrophic failures would indeed create a very serious and broad situation.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, people dealing with a health crisis may call either 111 or 999 and each of those services will refer people on to the other as appropriate. Can the Minister confirm that there are protocols in place such that the operators of each service are informed as soon as one of them goes down so that they can stop referring people on, and whether there are protocols in place for each service to handle the overload if one has gone down?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

It is an excellent question; I am afraid the truth is that I do not know the answer at this point, but I will be happy to write to the noble Lord.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister would be the first to agree that an event of this kind is really serious. He has told the House when the Government were informed. When did British Telecom first know that there was a problem, how was it communicated to Ministers and—once the inquiry that has now been indicated happens—in what way, and when, will the House be informed of the outcome of it so that we can discuss any of the consequences as a result of what we find went wrong?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I accept the great seriousness of the situation. The event that caused the platform to go down occurred at 6.30 am on Sunday. The Government were advised of the event at 9.20 am, so just under three hours later. I understand that the Government were informed as quickly as was practically possible. One area that the inquiry will look into is whether that should or could have been faster. As regards when and how the findings will be presented to the House, let me think about the best way of doing so; I will commit to sharing that in the most appropriate way.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, the major response seemed to be to continue to dial 101. What worries about me about that is that at the moment the average waiting time for people to get through on 101 is five minutes, which is already hugely too long. If other calls go into that system, then the call time can only get longer, and it cannot discriminate between emergency and non-emergency calls.

I have some worries in relation to announcements. First, there was no announcement that the script that the call handlers were using had been changed. Often people were trying to problem-solve on the phone rather than just finding out what needed to happen and then despatching resources if necessary. Secondly, I heard nothing about officers or ambulance people getting out of offices so that people could go to find them, if that was possible. That is what happens with paramedics at the moment: they park up in certain places, provided that those places are identified for people to go to.

Thirdly, is it not time that we started having joint call handling? At the moment we have three separate forces, and the only reason why BT needs to take the call is that the ambulance service, the fire service and the police have to take them independently. You have to make a call to BT to declare which service you require, often at a time when you do not actually know which one you need. Why do we not answer them together? Why do we not remove the cost that BT imposes on the whole system, since it appears that it has not worked very well on this occasion?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

There are a range of important questions there. First, BT provides the service of call handling directly to the communications providers. The CPs then act as they are required to, as regulated by Ofcom.

On the question of the script, call handlers were required to update their script because, once the disaster recovery system had kicked in, it no longer provided geographical information and therefore the script required them to ascertain the location of the caller, which is normally done automatically. I forget some other parts of the noble Lord’s question, but if he would like to contact me for follow-up then I will be happy to answer them.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, given the serious nature and the longevity of the system failure, was there a COBRA meeting about this incident? If so, when did it meet? If it did not, is that because it was a Sunday?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

To my knowledge, there was no COBRA meeting—I imagine because the disaster recovery system kicked in and was able to meet the emergency requirements.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure that specific recommendations will come out of the inquiry, but there should also be systematic ones that apply to other areas of national infrastructure. This is not the only single strand of infrastructure that is put in the hands of one private sector company that keeps people’s services alive. Will the Minister undertake that those systematic lessons are applied across the piece and across government?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not want to prejudge the outcome of the inquiries. If they determine that there are systemic issues that need to be addressed, then we will put in place a plan to address them.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, I ask this question as an ex-police and crime commissioner. What assurances have Ministers sought from the emergency services that there were no serious issues as a result of the failure of the 999 system? Secondly, have they asked for confirmation of that from both BT and the relevant emergency services?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Those questions will rightly be the focus of the ongoing inquiries.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, a number of noble Lords have already warned about potential failures of other technology and a lack of resilience. I shall add one more, referring particularly to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about the switchover from analogue to digital. There is concern in some quarters about the impact that will have on monitoring devices, especially for people receiving social care or healthcare in their home. Could the Minister update us on the conversations going on within government to make sure that, when that switchover comes, either the devices that no longer work will be replaced or a way will be found to use those devices on the digital network?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the importance of those questions, particularly with respect to our ambition to provide technology that is available to all at all times. The questions will also quite rightly be an important part of the ongoing inquiries.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, yesterday the northern part of the UK experienced very heavy, intense thunderstorms. Communities rely on the emergency services; they also rely on access to the 999 telephone service to access those emergency services when there is flooding and other, associated incidents. Will that level of resistance be built into the inquiry to ensure that future systems operate in the best possible way to achieve the best possible outcomes for all communities throughout the UK?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the value of what the noble Baroness is bringing out. The scope of the inquiry must remain: what went wrong, what were the impacts and what do we therefore need to fix? Questions about the future improvement of the overall telecommunications network in the country are also, no doubt, critical, but I do not believe that they are part of the scope of this investigation.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, what protocols are in place to test the resilience of such systems before they go down?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the question, but we are entering an area of technicality that is, I am afraid, slightly beyond my knowledge. I am happy to write to the noble Baroness on that point.

[Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us whether BT, a private company, has been subject to a minimum service level requirement? If it has been deemed to fail that minimum service level requirement, what sanction will it face?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not want to prejudge the investigation—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

How can I? BT is required by Ofcom to answer 95% of calls in five seconds or less. As to how many of those have been missed at this point, subject to the ongoing inquiry, I do not know.

Artificial Intelligence

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking in co-operation with international partners to reach a global agreement on the regulation of advanced forms of artificial intelligence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

The Government are co-operating with international partners both bilaterally and multilaterally to address advanced AI’s regulatory challenges, including via our autumn global AI safety summit. The AI regulation White Paper recognises the importance of such co-operation, as we cannot tackle these issues alone. As per the G7 leaders’ communiqué, we are committed to advancing international discussions on inclusive AI governance and interoperability to achieve our common vision and goal of trustworthy AI aligned with shared democratic values.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer and commend the Prime Minister for his initiatives in this area. Clearly, advanced AI is epoch-making for the future of humanity and international co-operation is essential. Can the Minister say, first, whether there has been any response from China to the Prime Minister’s initiatives? Secondly, would he agree that one possible role model is the International Atomic Energy Agency as a way of monitoring future developments?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

We must recognise that China is ranked number two in AI capabilities globally, and we would not therefore envisage excluding China from any such discussions on how to deal best with the frontier risks of AI. That said, in the way we approach China and involve it in this, we need to take full cognisance of the associated risks. Therefore, we will engage effectively with our partners to assess the best way forward.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, in a recent speech the Minister rightly said that AI regulation clarity is critical. How on earth, in trying to achieve this, is he going to reconcile the AI White Paper’s tentative and voluntary sectoral approach to AI governance with the Prime Minister saying that unregulated AI poses an existential threat to humanity and with his desire to lead the world in AI safety and regulation? Does this mean that a screeching U-turn is in prospect?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. The starting point for the AI White Paper—of which I do not accept the characterisation of tentative—was, first, not to duplicate existing regulators’ work; secondly, not to go after specific technologies, because the technology space is changing so quickly; and, thirdly, to remain agile and adaptive. We are seeing the benefits of being agile and adapting to a very rapidly shifting landscape.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend the Minister and the Government on getting involved in international negotiations and discussions in this area. However, is this not an area where we have to be careful that we do not have a situation where there is nothing to fear but fear itself, and where we will lose out, if we are not careful, in having overregulation that prevents us using AI to the fullest extent for positive, excellent reasons on behalf of the people of this country?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right that the potential benefits of AI are extremely great, but so too are the risks. One of the functions of our recently announced Foundation Model Taskforce will be to scan the horizon on both sides of this—for the risks, which are considerable, and for the benefits, which are considerable too.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I differ from the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, who said that we must develop AI to the maximum extent. There are benefits, but does the Minister accept that we ignore the dangers of AI to the great peril of not only ourselves but the world? The problem is that, despite the advantages of artificial intelligence, within a very short period it will be more intelligent than human beings but it will lack one essential feature of humanity: empathy. Anybody or anything without empathy is, by definition, psychopathic. It will achieve its ends by any means. Therefore, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, is correct to say that, despite the difficulty of competition between states, such as the US and China, and within states, such as between Google, Microsoft and the rest, it is essential that we get an ethical regulatory framework before technology runs so far ahead of us that it becomes impossible to control this phenomenon.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The risks have indeed been well publicised and are broadly understood as to whether and when AI becomes more intelligent than humans. Opinions vary but the risk is there. Collectively and globally, we must take due account of the risks; if not, I am afraid that the scenario that the noble Lord paints will become reality. That is why bilateral and multilateral engagements globally are so important, so as to have a single interoperable regulatory and safety regime, and to have AI that the world can trust to produce some of the extraordinary benefits of which it would be capable.

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for raising this issue. I too believe that the best way for us to find the potential of AI is by paying great attention to regulation and ethics, building on what has just been said. What is best in us is beyond rationality—

“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends”


is not a rational decision. I have a simple question about the autumn summit, which I welcome. Because of the smorgasbord of ethical issues that AI raises, I am slightly concerned—although I may have got this wrong—that the summit will be gathering together business leaders. What about people from civil society? Will they be invited to the summit, and has this been given real consideration in helping us build an ethical framework for regulation?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The most reverend Primate is right to argue that we need a broad field of contributors to the difficult questions around AI ethics. As to the specific attendees and agenda of the AI global summit this autumn, those are to be determined, but we will have, if I may use the phrase, a broad church.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, it is easier to talk about ethical regulations, particularly internationally, than to address them. Innovations, particularly in advanced AI and generative AI, are occurring at a pace. Generative AI is already threatening some of our key industries. We need regulation that reduces that threat at the same time as allowing the economy to grow.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The White Paper set out the Government’s approach to regulation. The consultation on the White Paper closed on Wednesday; it has received a range of highly informed critiques, and praise from several surprising quarters. Once we have been through it and assessed the findings of that, we will take forward the approach to regulating AI, which, as the noble Lord quite rightly points out, is moving at a very fast pace.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, while we are told that the Online Safety Bill is both technology-neutral and future-proofed, concerns are being raised, with doubts that emerging AI-related threats are sufficiently covered. With the Bill finally approaching Report, do the Government intend to introduce any AI-focused protective measures? What if the Government realise after the Bill’s passage that more regulations are needed? How confident is the Minister that future legislation will not be subject to the same sorts of delays that we have experienced with the Online Safety Bill?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to point out that legislation must necessarily move more slowly than technology. As far as possible, the Online Safety Bill has been designed to be future-proof and not to specify or identify specific technologies and their effects. AI has been discussed as part of that, and those discussions continue.

Medical Research Charities

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Wednesday 21st June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

We are moving forward with discussions on the UK’s involvement in Horizon Europe; that is our preference. We will continue to engage with representatives across the sector, including medical research charities, as these discussions progress. We have engaged widely with the sector on association and Pioneer, including with medical research charities, and we continue to welcome thoughts on the proposals laid out in the Pioneer prospectus.

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply, and I am pleased that he recognises the vital contribution made by charity-funded medical research to the UK’s excellent R&D reputation. I am grateful for the briefings we have had from various charities, including the British Heart Foundation, which have all reinforced that. They point out the huge progress that has been made—for example, in cardiovascular research—in the past few years, which has been made possible because of the collaboration and recruitment of scientists, technicians and researchers, both within Europe and around the world. However, it is clear that there is still uncertainty about the degree to which the Government are communicating with or are at least involving those charities in the work they are doing and the negotiations. Surely the Minister accepts that it would be sensible—indeed, essential—for them to have a seat at the table in the negotiations and in looking at the opportunities available from both programmes.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

DSIT meets medical research charities on a quarterly basis through the DSIT charities forum. That brings together government representatives with a broad range of member charities from the Association of Medical Research Charities—AMRC—including the British Heart Foundation and Cancer Research UK, as well as smaller charities for topic-specific discussions, which includes the Horizon or Pioneer programmes. In addition, DSIT meets policy officials from AMRC on a monthly basis.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, if the UK is readmitted but participation in the programme falls to drastically low levels, provisions would allow the UK to withdraw. Can the Minister say what that level would be? Does he feel that there is any danger that this might happen due to the science sector’s lack of confidence in the Government’s long-term commitment to Horizon?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I cannot, of course, comment on ongoing negotiations for fear of affecting their outcome against us. I recognise the concern about the amount of time being taken, but the Government are, as the noble Baroness says, pursuing a policy of becoming a science and technology superpower by 2030. In the Government’s view, an excellent way to further that objective is to reassociate with the Horizon programme but on terms that are fair and appropriate for our sector stakeholders. Failing that, we will opt for our bold and ambitious alternative, Pioneer.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, it has now been 128 weeks of uncertainty, delay and broken promises since the Government took us out of the world’s biggest and most prestigious science fund, Horizon Europe. Will the Minister confirm or deny that part of the continued delay to the UK’s re-entry into the programme has been caused by a demand for a fee reduction? Does he agree that our continued exclusion from the scheme is damaging research and development collaborations across the EU that have benefited the UK in the past?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. The first thing to remind the House is that it was not a decision of the UK Government not to be associated with the Horizon programme. Following the trade and co-operation agreement—of which association to Horizon was a part—that association was withdrawn from the United Kingdom. Beyond that, as I say, I cannot comment on the forces at work behind individual negotiation points, but I recognise the frustration and concern that result from the lengthy period of negotiations.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, on 19 June, UKRI and DSIT launched a search for ideas that were “bold and ambitious”—a phrase the Minister used just now—and

“transformative ideas for moonshots across the research and innovation landscape”.

That would apparently be delivered by the Pioneer programme in the event that we do not sign up to Horizon. Can the Minister confirm how much will be invested in those moonshot programmes? Can he also confirm that in the event that we sign up to Horizon, those projects will still be funded?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The funding for the Pioneer programme would end up being the same as the funding that would be made available were we to join the Horizon programme, as is our preference. As to individual elements within the Pioneer programme, I cannot comment on their size right now because the programme continues to be based on huge input, which we greatly welcome, from all aspects of the sector.

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

My Lords, I draw the House’s attention to my registered interests. Is the Minister able to explain how the funding that had originally been allocated to the Horizon programme and has not been spent on that programme to date has been applied, and can he confirm that the residual funds that have not been applied will be applied to drive the science agenda in our country?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

As is normal practice in order to keep budgets taut and realistic, funding that was not spent on the Horizon programme due to our non-association was returned to the Treasury. However, should we—as is the Government’s preference—be able to associate with Horizon, those funds would contribute to Horizon.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, the trade and co-operation agreement has 24 committees, one of which is on the association with Union programmes. Perhaps the Minister could tell us whether that committee is actively involved in discussing Horizon. Secondly, the Horizon programme and our non-association with it is a matter of mutual harm to both sides, because there is a lack of things. A sense of urgency is important here, and I regret that I do not feel that a sense of urgency is coming from His Majesty’s Government. I remind everyone that the Windsor Framework surfaced on 27 February, which is jolly nearly four months ago. This is simply a discussion about money and about the premium being paid to join the Horizon programme. It seems to me that a one-issue discussion should take less than four months.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

As I say, I recognise the concern and frustration about the length of time. However, I do not recognise the characterisation that it is due purely to one participant in the negotiations foot-dragging. It is inevitably a complex negotiation with a number of moving parts, on which, I am afraid, I am unable to comment for fear of prejudicing the outcome of the negotiations.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister talks about, for example, Cancer Research UK, which is the biggest independent funder of research—I think that two years ago it was investing just under £450 million. It is on record as saying that joining Horizon Europe offers

“unparalleled opportunities for the UK to foster international collaborations”.

Will the Minister take that back to the department in the hope of incentivising the discussions, which we know are taking place and to which he just referred? The Government have to make a decision, and it is not in the best interests of science in the UK for them not to do so.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Yes, indeed, I will be very happy to take that back. As I say, for the Government, the preferred outcome of the negotiations is to associate with Horizon on fair and appropriate terms.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

In response to the question from my noble friend, the Minister was reasonably confident that we would move forward, but subject to “fair and appropriate terms”. Would he care to define to the House a little more clearly what those are?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

At the risk of testing the House’s patience, I cannot describe what our negotiating goals are for fear of prejudicing the outcome of the negotiations.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

In the light of comments from across the House, what progress does the Minister think we are making towards us becoming a global science superpower, and when does he think we might actually become such a thing? [Laughter.]

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I regret hearing the laughter at the question. We are a country with 1% of the world’s population, over 6% of the world’s published academic studies, and over 13% of the most highly cited academic studies in the world. I think I am right in saying that that makes us third globally, second in the OECD and first in Europe.

OFCOM (Duty regarding Prevention of Serious Self-harm and Suicide) Bill [HL]

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 16th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for tabling this Private Member’s Bill. Her knowledge and experience of these issues is highly regarded, rightly, on all sides of the House. I also thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this important debate so far. Like the noble Baroness, I call out the Samaritans for their ongoing brilliant work in this area.

As my noble friend Lord Parkinson set out at Second Reading and in Online Safety Bill Committee debates, the Government recognise the devastating impact of suicide and self-harm content, which has affected countless lives and families. We remain committed to addressing this material and giving vulnerable users the protection they deserve. While my department is leading this work, it is part of a cross-government approach which will go a long way to protecting people from suicide and self-harm content online.

I do not wish to repeat recent discussions, but I can assure the noble Baroness that the Online Safety Bill has been carefully designed to ensure that users are better protected from this content, with the strongest protections reserved for children. On top of this, we have tabled an amendment to the Bill to introduce a new self-harm offence, as has been mentioned, which noble Lords will have an opportunity to debate next week in Committee. Further, the powers granted to Ofcom via the legislation will protect users and negate the need for the noble Baroness’s Private Member’s Bill. Ofcom has the expertise to regulate and enforce the Bill’s provisions and implement its own research findings.

I thank the noble Baroness again for bringing her Bill to the House and facilitating this important debate, but I hope noble Lords are reassured of the Government’s extensive work in these areas and I hope that the noble Baroness will appreciate that, for the reasons set out, the Government cannot support this Private Member’s Bill.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the very generous words of the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, and for her understanding of the background to this. I am also grateful to the Government for the discussions we have had and recognise what has been said. We have more to debate. However, I emphasise that prevention of suicide and self-harm is essential and involves many different government departments and people across the whole of society. At the moment, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.

Science and Technology Superpower (Science and Technology Committee Report)

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Wednesday 7th June 2023 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Baroness for securing this important debate and indeed to the whole committee. On a personal level, as a still relatively new Minister, it is incredibly helpful to have set out in the report a not always positive but clear-eyed critique of where we are going in science policy. I am grateful for that and for the excellent contributions made by all noble Lords in today’s debate.

As a number of noble Lords mentioned, in February, the Prime Minister announced the creation of the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology—DSIT. It will promote a diverse research and innovation system, connecting discovery science to new companies, growth and jobs. I believe and hope that the creation of DSIT has addressed many of the challenges raised by the Select Committee in its report. It will provide strategic coherence in policy and strategy for science and tech. I recognise that there are different views on this, but it has been warmly welcomed by a large number of external stakeholders for putting science and tech at the heart of the Government’s agenda. Of course, all government departments undertake R&D to support their own policy objectives, but DSIT plays a unique role as steward of the UK R&D system across Whitehall and nationally, supporting world-class R&D and the underpinning investment through our universities and labs to enable a thriving R&D system.

On 6 March, the Prime Minister and the DSIT Secretary of State launched the science and technology framework—the Government’s plan to cement the UK’s place as a science and tech superpower by 2030. The framework is there to challenge every part of government to put the UK at the forefront of global science and technology. Action will focus on creating the right environment to develop critical technologies; investing in R&D, talent and skills; financing innovative science and tech companies; creating international opportunities; providing access to physical and digital infrastructure; and improving regulation and standards. We have already taken significant steps. Since the launch of the S&T framework we have announced £2.5 billion over the next decade for quantum tech; launched a £250 million tech missions fund for AI, quantum and engineering biology; launched the AI regulation White Paper; and announced a £1 billion strategy for the UK’s semiconductor sector.

In addition, we have been progressing work to define clear strategies for individual sectors, such as the AI action plan, the life sciences strategy and the national space strategy. These actions will help to ensure that the UK has the skills, talent and infrastructure to take a global lead in game-changing technologies and ground-breaking science.

While DSIT is taking the lead on the S&T framework, this is necessarily a cross-government effort. For example, use of government procurement to stimulate innovation is led from the Cabinet Office but needs to harness the big budgets, such as defence, to really have impact. By the end of 2023, we will publish an update setting out the progress that we have made and the further action that must be taken on our path to being a science and tech superpower by 2030.

As set out in the 2023 Spring Budget, the Government will turn their vision for UK enterprise into a reality by supporting growth in the sectors of the future. This includes the five critical technologies alongside life sciences and green technologies. Underpinning the Government’s long-term strategy and support for the sectors of the future is a commitment to increasing publicly funded and economy-wide R&D spending. The Government have recommitted to increasing public expenditure on R&D to £20 billion per annum by 2024-25. I take the points that were raised about needing to compete in a high-spending international environment. This represents a cash increase of around one-third and is the largest ever increase in public R&D spending over a spending review period.

I turn to the matter that I think almost everybody raised of international collaboration. We need to think globally if we are to make the most effective progress and tackle global challenges. We want to be the partner of choice for other leading science nations and to tap into the rising potential of emerging economies, ensuring that we are seen as a natural partner. For example, the UK in April signed a landmark memorandum of understanding on research and innovation with India, enabling quicker, deeper collaboration that will drive economic growth, create skilled jobs and improve lives in the UK, India and worldwide.

Attracting high-skilled international talent will bring long-term benefits to the whole of the UK. Science and Technology Framework presents a talent and skills vision for 2030 in which the UK has a large and varied base of skilled technical and entrepreneurial talent, able to respond quickly to the needs of industry, academia and government. This includes our immigration offer for talented researchers and innovators to come to the UK, including via the high potential route for recent graduates of top global universities and the scale-up route for individuals recruited by a UK-based high-growth scale-up company.

I turn to Horizon, which I know is a subject of great importance not just here but around the research community and the country. The Government are fully committed to science and research collaboration, including with our European counterparts. That is why we continue to be in discussions, which, contrary to the point raised, are in good faith, with our European counterparts on the UK’s involvement in Horizon Europe and hope that our negotiations will be successful. That is our strong preference, but we are clear that our participation must be fair for the UK’s researchers, businesses and taxpayers. We have set out our bold, ambitious alternative to Horizon Europe—Pioneer—if we are not able to secure association on fair and appropriate terms. Negotiations are ongoing, so I cannot comment on their content except to say that our priority remains to ensure that the UK’s R&D sector gets the maximum level of support to allow it to continue its ground-breaking research and collaboration with international partners.

I will now turn to some of the specific points raised. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, whose remarks I thank her for, I shall focus my comments on her three key questions. First, on Horizon, as I have noted, we are moving forward with the discussions and our involvement in EU science and research programmes. As several noble Lords have noted, delays over two years have caused serious and lasting damage to UK R&D. As I say, we hope sincerely that negotiations will be successful, but the guiding principle remains that participation has to be fair for UK researchers, businesses and taxpayers.

To provide the industry with certainty, we recognise that we must come to a resolution as quickly as possible. To be as clear as I can be, we want to associate with Horizon Europe, but it has to be on fair terms, and if we cannot reach fair and appropriate terms, we will launch Pioneer. Meanwhile we have established the Horizon guarantee to ensure that there is no loss in funding for the UK sector. This will be in place to cover all Horizon Europe calls that close on or before the end of June 2023. We are keeping the scope of the guarantee under review and will ensure that there is no gap in funding flowing to the sector.

Following the recent machinery of government changes, OSTS has now been integrated into the newly created Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. The National Science and Technology Council will remain a Cabinet committee following the recent changes, with the Prime Minister as chair.

On skills, which were also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, the Government welcome the committee’s inquiry on people and skills in STEM and have responded to the recommendations. The Government remain committed to taking forward the R&D people and culture strategy. The Science and Technology Framework prioritises action on talent and skills which looks at the wider system, supporting STEM skills across the economy.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, my noble friend Lord Wei and the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, in relation to NSTC, there is a long-standing convention that the frequency, attendance list and minutes of Cabinet and its committees are not made public to protect the principle of collective agreement by Ministers.

On the science and tech framework, by the end of 2023, we will publish an update setting out the progress that we have made and the further action that must be taken on our path to being a science and technology superpower by 2030.

My noble friend Lord Holmes asked how the specific strategies fit into an overall coherent approach. The Government have set out their priorities through a suite of strategies, including the R&D road map, the UK innovation strategy and the people and culture strategy, which take a strategic or thematic overview to drive delivery of the Government’s priorities. We agree that policy coherence is essential for the success of the UK’s R&D mission.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Winston, for his comments and agree with the points he raised about the importance of support for researchers. UKRI is working to improve the experience of applying for funding through its Simpler and Better Funding programme.

In response to the question about ensuring good monitoring and evaluation data on the R&D that UKRI funds, information about research outputs is tracked by UKRI and other funders as a requirement. Monitoring and evaluation of the impact of funding is undertaken to understand that impact.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked how we track what other nations are doing. The FCDO’s science and innovation network based in embassies across the world provides valuable intelligence on the science and tech strategies of other nations which informs the UK’s approach and supports international dialogue. The noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Northover, asked whether scientific visa applications are subsidising other functions in the Home Office. I accept that the global race for science, research, technology and innovation is increasingly competitive, and the Government aim to make the UK the best place in the world for scientists, innovators and entrepreneurs to live and work. The Government are committed to ensuring that the UK’s immigration system supports growth and is clear and supportive for scientists, academics and entrepreneurs—

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but I wonder if he would write to me with the answer to my question.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I am happy to write to the noble Baroness.

In response to how the Government are taking a lead on regulation without the downside of regulatory divergence, the Government recognise that technological innovation is fundamental to unlocking growth and are committed to growing the UK’s global reputation for regulatory best practice.

In response to the question from the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Rees, on how we will get more specialist teachers, specifically in mathematics, I support the Prime Minister’s aim to ensure that every young person has the skills that they need to succeed in life. Higher maths attainment will also help to grow the economy, creating better paid jobs and opportunity for all, which is why I also support his ambition to ensure that every young person studies some form of maths up to the age of 18.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, I thank him for his helpful comments on the importance of developing a global science partnership. I very much agree that collaboration is at the heart of being a science superpower. Last year we announced the first phase of the new International Science Partnerships Fund, underpinned by funding of £119 million over this spending review period.

My noble friend Lord Wei asked about building on the success of the Vaccine Taskforce. There will be ongoing lessons to learn from the Covid pandemic. We are demonstrating our ambition and delivering outcomes for patients through our healthcare missions. We have announced the chairs and details of the mental health and addiction missions as well as the cancer mission chair. These missions seek to replicate the success of the Vaccine Taskforce in areas where we face the greatest healthcare challenges, and illustrate the impact of industry-government collaboration.

In response to the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, who asked about ARIA’s progress, it has been established and is still in its early stage of development. Over the coming months, ARIA is recruiting its first cohort of programme directors, who will help to shape and inform the agency’s first set of research programmes. None the less, funding transformative research with long-term benefits will require patience, as prepared for in the agency’s design.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, I strongly agree with him on the vital importance of long-term thinking and learning the lessons from history. This is why the S&T framework necessarily takes a long-term view of the strategic outcomes that we seek to deliver in the decades to come.

The noble Lord, Lord Rees, brought up the risks of precarity for research careers. Postgraduate researchers are key to the success of research groups, and we are looking at how to support them through a new deal for PGRs. UKRI has undertaken a sector consultation as a first phase of this long-term programme of work, and the results will be published soon, in 2023.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, raised the grant review of UKRI. DSIT is working closely with UKRI to implement the recommendations of the review while overseeing UKRI’s transformation programme to support improved governance and decision-making. The noble Baroness mentioned the recent changes to the ONS numbers on total R&D investment in the UK, as did the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth. It is good news that the ONS has improved its methodology for estimating R&D spend in the UK and that, as a result, we have moved above countries such as France in terms of R&D spend as a proportion of GDP. The Government are taking great strides in growing public R&D spend in the UK, with the Chancellor recommitting in the most recent Budget to growing public spend to £20 billion per annum by 2024-25.

A number of noble Lords have raised the recommendations of the recent Nurse review. The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology outlined in her letter to the lead reviewer, Paul Nurse, that the landscape review would play a foundational role in delivering the UK Government’s vision and would set out a detailed response to the review’s recommendations in the coming months.

The noble Lord, Lord Mair, discussed industry engagement. The innovation strategy set out our plan for driving investment in UK R&D. We have increased funding for core Innovate UK programmes which are successful in crowding in private sector leverage, so that they reach £1.1 billion per year by 2024-25. This is over £300 million, or 66% more per year than in 2021-22, and will ensure that it can support business in bringing innovations to market.

In closing, I thank noble Lords for such a detailed, well-informed and wide-ranging debate. The newly created department will continue to address the challenges offered by the Select Committee and make clear progress to achieve our science and technology superpower ambitions, with a clear focus on delivery.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, may I say that I fully appreciate that the Minister is not personally involved in the negotiations over Horizon Europe? But in his remarks, he has referred to serious and lasting damage by non-association. Can he at least take back to the department the near-universal view in this debate that we should join and consider the fact that the Government specifically said after Brexit that this is the one thing that we want to join? Let us think of the consequences of our future co-operation with our European neighbour on a whole range of things if it turns out that we do not join what we said we wanted to.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I am happy to take not just the noble Lord’s remarks but the sense of the Committee on that back to the department.

Horizon Europe

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 11th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper—and, as it is the fourth time I have asked it, I am hoping for a more encouraging reply.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

I hope to oblige the noble Viscount. The Government are moving forward in discussions with the EU on the UK’s involvement in Horizon Europe. We hope that negotiations will be successful, and that is our preference. But participation must be on the basis of a good deal for UK researchers, businesses and taxpayers, reflecting the lasting impact of two years of EU delays. If we are unable to secure association on fair and appropriate terms, we will implement Pioneer, our bold and ambitious alternative.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a less encouraging reply than I had hoped for. The scientific community, notwithstanding any intransigence by the EU, feels that the tragedy of Brexit has been the damage done to British science. Does the Minister not accept that there are many aspects of Horizon Europe that are of key importance to the UK, and that we have benefited from it in the past? I had a letter the other day from Cancer Research UK, pointing out that Horizon Europe offers

“unparalleled opportunities for the promotion of cancer research in the UK and Europe”.

Is this not sufficient to drive the Government to join, rather than to continue talking about the possibility of a plan B? We want plan A, and I wish that the Government would bring it about.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Viscount for his question, and let me take the opportunity to commend the work of Cancer Research UK. The Government’s preference is to associate to Horizon, for the reasons he very ably sets out. However, it must be on fair and appropriate terms that reflect not just the past damage done by our missing two years, during which we were not associated with Horizon Europe, but ongoing and future uncertainties that not being associated have inevitably created for us. We have done the responsible thing by putting in place a suitable alternative, but I stress that it is not our preferred outcome of these very welcome talks with the EU.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

Following on from the question from my noble friend Lord Stansgate, the Government must explain exactly where they are here. We were led to believe that after the Windsor Agreement, the UK’s transition to the Horizon research programme was to be straightforward. What has made the Government go through this rethink? How much has the country lost in net worth in investment in research and development by doing the hokey-cokey with the Horizon programme, given that we were massive net beneficiaries under the old EU scheme? We need clarity. We were promised this, and I do not understand why the Government are messing around with research and development in this country. We were promised that we would get better results by coming out of Europe, but we are not. We are going backwards.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I stress again that our preference is to go back into the Horizon programme. We are in negotiations with the EU to achieve that. We have understood our own requirements for doing that and are seeking them. The noble Lord would not expect me to comment on an ongoing negotiation, but our hope is that we can arrive at a deal which is fair and appropriate for UK taxpayers, businesses and, of course, universities. As to the results over the last brief period of negotiation since the signing of the Windsor Framework, I cannot put a figure on exactly how much research has not been conducted over the two months of the ongoing negotiations.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Can my noble friend reassure us that the Government understand that there is a world beyond white Europe? At least 15 other countries have signed up to the Horizon programme. It is not just research in Europe, but research in the world—India, the United States and elsewhere. We should look well beyond white Europe and accept not just any deal on Horizon, but one that benefits British scientists too.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the question. Regardless of which route we go down, multilateral global collaboration across the scientific and research community is crucial and highly valued by all participants. If we take the Horizon route, then, as my noble friend says, there are 15 countries outside the EU 27 that are associated with Horizon. If we go down the Pioneer route, which is not our preference, that will emphasise global collaboration, whether with the EU 27 or beyond. Additionally, we recently launched the International Science Partnerships Fund to support UK researchers and innovators to work with international partners on some of the most pressing themes of our time.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, the Windsor Framework agreement came forward on 27 February, some two and half months ago, and there is mutual harm to both the UK and the EU—the damage is the same on either side, to both our science spaces. A discussion about money should surely not take two and a half months. Can the Minister give us some reassurance that this is being treated as a matter of extreme urgency? There is damage to both sides and active discussions are going on to try to reach the middle ground.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for the question—I am absolutely able to provide that assurance. It is being treated as a matter of great urgency and as I said, our preference is to reassociate to the Horizon programme on terms that are fair and appropriate to us. I cannot comment on the specific terms of the negotiation or our specific negotiating purpose and outcomes, but it is being treated very seriously and is in hand.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, do His Majesty’s Government understand that rejoining Horizon is not about just the financial aspects? The Minister has talked several times about the benefits and cost to the taxpayer. This is about international networks, which are invaluable and without price. I refer to my declaration of interests.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. The UK is on record as seeking to become a science and technology superpower by 2030. Our preferred outcome, Horizon, is absolutely a key component of that. If we are obliged to go down the Pioneer route because we are unable to establish a fair and appropriate agreement with Horizon, that will be a key component as well. As she said, this goes beyond simple financial considerations.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, some of us in this Chamber were still in the European Parliament for the three years following the referendum. Many of us noted the European Union’s unfortunate intransigence on not only Horizon but other matters. This was not necessary, because it was not cut and dried that the UK would not be involved with the Horizon programme in the future. Does my noble friend agree that there is no justification for this procrastination? It is up to the EU side to get cracking and sort out this extremely important matter.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question. When the TCA was agreed in 2020, our association to Horizon was agreed as part of that. That no longer happened, but it remains the UK’s wish to rejoin Horizon. With respect to the attitudes on both sides, I welcome the EU’s current openness to engage constructively in these negotiations.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, as Sir Paul Nurse has pointed out, science and the arts depend on the exchange of ideas, and that one of the most vital things is social and intellectual intercourse with other countries? At the moment, musicians and scientists are finding it terribly hard to come here, and we are finding it hard to go there. Thus, a vital source of inspiration is being lost.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. I cannot comment specifically today on musicians and cultural exchange. Whether we go down the Horizon route or the less preferred Pioneer route, we will seek global collaboration with the EU 27 and beyond on all research and development matters.

Data Protection

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 23rd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Brixton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they intend to introduce legislation on the United Kingdom’s data protection framework.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, the Data Protection and Digital Information (No. 2) Bill was introduced to Parliament on 8 March. It seizes our post-Brexit opportunity to create a new UK data rights regime. It will now be subject to the usual parliamentary processes, starting with Second Reading in the other place, the date for which will be announced in due course.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I first welcome the Minister to his new role on the Front Bench, particularly given his undoubted expertise. However, I must ask him whether he understands the concerns of many at the proposal to allow NHS data to be uploaded to a data system based on tech from Palantir—of Cambridge Analytica infamy—that will offer inadequate data protection to patients? These concerns have only been increased by the Secretary of State’s claim that one of the purposes of the Bill is to give organisations greater confidence about the circumstances

“in which they can process personal data without consent.”

In other words, the Bill will reduce protection to individuals, not increase it, with one result being that some people will not seek the medical attention that they require.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. My first observation is that Palantir is a very good illustration of some of the new technology providers we are seeing, because the value it was able to provide and demonstrate is very great. However, the perfectly legitimate concerns about data privacy are, none the less, equally great. Any organisation operating in the UK or processing the personal data of people in the UK must comply with our strong and internationally renowned data protection laws, and those laws set out robust penalties for those who do not, including, as necessary, Palantir. Lastly, with respect to the Secretary of State’s remarks, the intention is by no means to reduce the requirement for data protection, merely in some cases to make it more straightforward to demonstrate that the requirements are being met.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I join in welcoming the noble Viscount to the Dispatch Box in his role as the first Minister for AI and IP—I think it is the first time those two responsibilities have been joined together. I wish him every success. Given that there is a new data protection Bill in the Commons, does he agree that it would be highly damaging to our AI developers if we were to diverge too widely from the EU GDPR and risk access to the datasets on which they rely so heavily?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord and pay tribute to his expertise and knowledge in the area, of which I look forward to taking full advantage. The EU adequacy requirements are uppermost in our minds in continuing our ability to maintain the data relationship with it. I note that EU adequacy does not set out any particular legislative requirements to maintain adequacy, judged as it is on outcomes of data protection rather than its specific mechanisms. I am told that there are currently 14 jurisdictions that meet EU adequacy but have different legislative approaches to acquiring it. Our well-founded ambition is to be among them as well.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome my noble friend to the Front Bench and declare my technology interest. Does he agree that data is completely pervasive and all around us, that data literacy is critical and should be taught from the kindergarten right through life, and that data privacy is a key element of such data literacy teaching?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question and pay tribute to his well-known expertise in the area. Public confidence in the huge mass of data and in the changing systems and tools that use it is absolutely key. This goes into AI, cybersecurity and a range of other areas. That is why education for public confidence will be a key part of the Government’s strategy.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I suggest that the Minister looks at the EU’s data adequacy decision. It is 52 pages long. The decision is a dynamic one and comes up for renewal on 27 June 2025, which is quite close by. It was good to hear that the Government are having regard to all the various international data adequacy decisions that we benefit from, but I suggest that it is important to engage in conversation and discussions with the EU to bring it along. This is quite complex, and its decision is quite nuanced.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question and his suggestion. We will of course be engaging with the EU throughout, and we are under no illusions as to the importance of maintaining our adequacy arrangements with the EU.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Viscount to his new position. He says that the new Bill should be an opportunity to develop data regulations to put Britain at the forefront of the data revolution. However, instead of setting out a clear regime for the sector, it further complicates what is an overcomplex legislative area. I urge the noble Viscount to work with the Labour Party to ensure that this Bill is what the country needs, rather than just a series of patchwork amendments and more sweeping powers.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his kind words of welcome. I am absolutely willing to work with the Labour Party. I do not believe there is an ideological divide in approach, but more a pragmatic question of how we get this done. I observe that the overall economic impact of the Bill will contribute £4.7 billion of growth over the next 10 years; it is important to bear that in mind. When we discuss the Bill further, the noble Lord may come to feel that the characterisation of it as patchwork or disorganised is not entirely fair, but I look forward to working with him.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to his place. The AI regulation policy paper published last July set out a framework for fostering responsible innovation in AI. It included principles such as ensuring AI is secure and operates as designed, is transparent and explainable, and embeds principles of fairness and redress. Given the accelerating LLM models and their rapid inclusion in daily life, can the Minister give the House some idea of how these principles might be included in the upcoming Bill?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The AI regulation White Paper is due for publication next week and my noble friend will see a lot of that detail set out in it. I observe for the time being that the approach is, as far as possible, to maintain sectoral regulation where it is but apply the principles that she mentioned over the top of it. I look forward to working with her on the AI White Paper, which I hope will set her concerns to rest.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, following up previous questions on adequacy, the Minister will be aware that these are ultimately matters for the European Court of Justice, where any Commission decisions can be challenged—and are often struck down, as the United States has found to its cost. Given the likelihood that any decisions of adequacy in respect of the revised UK law will be challenged, what preparations are the Government making so that they are out there, defending the interests of British business in front of the European Court of Justice in future? That is an easy question for the Minister’s first day out.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord and am always very much in favour of easy questions. As the Bill progresses through Parliament, we will indeed be engaging with the EU, as he suggests. I share his view that this is something we have to take extremely seriously and have proper preparation and engagement throughout.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister to the Front Bench and his new role. In this new role, particularly its AI aspects, can he go across government—particularly into the MoD—to look at the use of AI and weapon systems and how that is moving forward, because there are some worrying areas?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the Lord for his welcome. I should declare that I was previously a member of the Committee on AI and Weapon Systems before taking up my ministerial post. As for the niceties of the machinery of government, I must confess that I do not yet understand them, but I am very happy to write to the noble Lord once I understand more.