Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Tuesday 13th September 2011

(13 years, 3 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Baroness Clark of Kilwinning Portrait Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
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7. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on his proposed reform of access to justice for overseas victims of corporate harm.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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Overseas victims of alleged corporate harm by UK international companies are, where appropriate, able to bring civil claims in the UK now, and that will continue to be the case following implementation of our reforms to civil litigation funding and costs. My officials and I are in contact with the Foreign and Colonial Office—[Laughter]the Foreign and Commonwealth Office as and when necessary to discuss the impact of our proposed reforms to legal costs in this class of case in this country, the Commonwealth or the colonies.

Caroline Lucas Portrait Caroline Lucas
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I thank the Secretary of State for that interesting reply. Notwithstanding his response, he will be aware that the United Nations Special Representative on Business and Human Rights has said that clauses 41 to 43 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill will present a major barrier to justice for overseas victims of human rights abuses by UK multinationals, not least because of the significant increased cost burdens. Will he therefore withdraw those clauses from the Bill?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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We are not changing the jurisdiction in this country, which certainly does entertain claims in personal injury cases and so on against multinational companies that have some footing in this country. All we are arguing about is how much is paid in legal costs. The reforms to the no win, no fee arrangements that we are proposing would ensure that the costs would be fairer, more balanced and not out of proportion to the claim. We are not making any change at all to the jurisdiction. Most of the cases against multinational companies are not human rights cases; they are personal injury cases. Many of those cases might be attracted here because our present system of rewarding lawyers is far more generous than can be found in any other jurisdiction in the world.

Baroness Clark of Kilwinning Portrait Katy Clark
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The Secretary of State will be aware that the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has also criticised the reforms, which would remove access to justice for the victims of corporate abuse overseas. Does he not recognise that the reforms could result in there being no disincentive to environmental and other abuse? Will he not look at this again?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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As I suggested a moment ago, I regard it as just a little disingenuous—I hate to say that about UN agencies—to suggest that we are in any way undermining the jurisdiction here for dealing with racial discrimination or serious personal injury cases involving British companies. What we are talking about is how much the lawyers are paid by way of success fees and other costs. The Trafigura case was a classic scandalous personal injury case involving a British company and an incident in Côte d’Ivoire, in which £30 million in compensation was awarded by the British courts to the plaintiffs and £100 million was paid in legal costs to those who brought the action. All we are doing is going back to where no win, no fee used to be—in getting the costs and the claims back in proportion to each other.

Andy Slaughter Portrait Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
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What we are talking about is whether such cases will get into court at all under the regime that the Government are proposing. It appears they will not listen to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs on insolvency, or to Amnesty International, Oxfam or the United Nations on multinational cases. Now, Admiral, the leading specialist motor insurer, is saying that premiums will go up as a result of the proposals. Is it not time to think again, and to stop favouring insurance companies, crooks and multinationals over their victims?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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If the hon. Gentleman wants to widen this argument, which is perfectly legitimate, to include a general proposition as well as multinational company cases, the questions must be: how much is proportionate to the claim when it comes to paying costs, and what effect does no win, no fee, since it was changed, have on the judgment on both sides? We do not want such cases to be such a high earner for the plaintiffs’ lawyers that they are prepared to bring more speculative cases, which is happening at the moment. Nor do we want pressure to be put on defendants who have a perfectly sound defence, forcing them to say, “We cannot defend ourselves, because it will cost us less to pay a nuisance fee by way of settlement.” Justice involves striking a balance between what the lawyers are paid and what the plaintiffs get by way of compensation.

Gordon Marsden Portrait Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
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4. What assessment he has made of the proposal to allow a right of appeal of decisions by judges to grant bail following the death of Jane Clough and other cases.

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Jack Straw Portrait Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
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8. What decisions he has reached on implementing the recommendation of the review by Lord Justice Jackson to abolish referral fees.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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As the House was informed on Friday 9 September in a written ministerial statement, the Government have decided to ban referral fees in personal injury cases as recommended by Lord Justice Jackson. The ban complements our wider reforms to no win, no fee arrangements, which are being taken forward in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.

Jack Straw Portrait Mr Straw
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May I first express an unequivocal welcome for the announcement that the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), made on Friday not only in respect of motor insurance but more widely about implementing this central plank of Lord Justice Jackson’s recommendations? Since the Justice Secretary used the word “ban”, which I think is the correct word, may I ask him whether he accepts that, given the level of malpractice we see across the legal and paralegal industry, the ban will have to be backed by the criminal law?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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First, may I say that I am glad that my old friend the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and I are in complete agreement on this subject? It is not the first time. He got in first, really, because I waited for the opinion of the Legal Services Board, which I have not followed but which I had to consider, and he rightly prompted a decision. People who agree with us include not only Lord Justice Jackson but my noble Friend Lord Young in his report, “Common Sense, Common Safety”, the Law Society, the Bar Council and the Association of British Insurers. The main beneficiaries will be claimants who are genuinely referred to the best expert to act for them and the justice system in general. We are now considering the way in which to put this into practice, but it is likely to be in the form recommended.

Robert Buckland Portrait Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
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Developing on that point, does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that we should consider not only criminal law but close liaison with professional bodies to ensure that strict disciplinary action is brought against individuals or bodies who seek to circumvent any ban by rebranding fees as other costs or, worse still, start an emerging black market in referrals?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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My hon. Friend makes extremely sensible and welcome suggestions. We have not decided exactly what form the ban will take yet, so I will not predetermine its eventual form. As the professional bodies strongly support us, we look forward to their co-operation because they are in the best position of all to ensure that different types of abuse with the same bad consequences are not used to evade the ban.

William Bain Portrait Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
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9. If he will make an assessment of the effectiveness of the Human Rights Act 1998 in respect of the balance between fundamental liberties and obligations to society.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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We have established an independent commission to investigate the creation of a United Kingdom Bill of Rights. The commission is due to report no later than the end of next year and the Government look forward to receiving and considering its findings.

William Bain Portrait Mr Bain
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I am grateful for that answer. Does the Secretary of State support Liberty’s campaign, entitled “Common Values”, that seeks to separate the myths from the truths of the Human Rights Act, which has, for example, protected the victims of rape from being cross-examined in court by their assailants? Is this not the right way to tackle what the Prime Minister recently called the misrepresentation of human rights?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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The best way to answer that is to say that I agree with the campaign, with the hon. Gentleman and with the Prime Minister. A perfectly serious debate has taken place about human rights legislation and I look forward to the commission’s advice. A lot of the difficulty comes when human rights are invoked by officials in excuse for bad decisions or in all kinds of cases that have nothing to do with any human rights legislation. We would have an altogether more sensible debate if people understood the real problems and difficulties—and that they are not all problems and difficulties.

Andrew Bridgen Portrait Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
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For many, the perception of the application of human rights law is that the pendulum has swung too far away from responsibilities and duties. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the commission will present a good opportunity to extend the understanding that with rights go responsibilities?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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I think the commission is a very helpful idea for getting some objective and balanced advice on the whole subject. Otherwise, I agree with my hon. Friend that there is no reason why human rights should interfere with the proper balance between the responsibilities and duties that one properly owes to society. Everybody in this country is in favour of basic human rights and everybody wants to have an orderly society. I think the commission will help to steer the debate in a more sensible direction.

Jeremy Corbyn Portrait Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
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Will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to assure us that any review of the Human Rights Act will not include withdrawal from the European convention on human rights or the European Court of Human Rights? Will he recognise that both those institutions have done a great deal of good to improve the human rights of minorities and ordinary citizens across Europe and that the convention is worth staying in?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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The convention was largely drafted by British lawyers led by Lord Kilmuir. Successive British Governments have adhered to the convention and have put great value on it and the Court. Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the end of the cold war, the convention has acquired new importance in making sure that we support advancing standards in eastern and central Europe. There is not the faintest chance of the present Government withdrawing from the convention on human rights, and we are waiting for the commission to give us—[Hon. Members: “Ooh!”] Have a look at our coalition agreement. Indeed, it is not just the coalition agreement—we have agreed to have a fresh look at this through the commission and we are not prejudging its findings.

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Stephen Pound Portrait Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
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11. What assessment he has made of recent trends in the size of the prison population; and if he will make a statement.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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Since the summer of 2008, the prison population has been increasing much less quickly than had been the case for a number of years. The public disorder in early August has, however, resulted in a sharp rise in the number of prisoners in recent weeks, with the prison population reaching 86,842 on Friday 9 September. Despite this unprecedented rise, sufficient capacity has been maintained in the prison estate to accommodate the prison population effectively.

Stephen Pound Portrait Stephen Pound
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Like any decent, reasonable human being, I am grateful for that answer from the Secretary of State. Could I ask him to give credit to the prison officers who have participated in this expansion, and the people working within the prison estate? It cannot have been easy for them. An additional 500 operational usable places have appeared in the last few weeks. Where from?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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First, I agree strongly with the praise that the hon. Gentleman gives to the prison officers. The system did respond—the criminal justice system responded very well to the totally unexpected pressure of the riots. Partly it proved that our criminal justice system does work well in such circumstances. Secondly, it was entirely because of the public-spiritedness and good will of prison officers, probation officers, policemen and court staff, all of whom responded to the events with horror, as did every decent member of society, and decided to put the public interest first.

We always carry a cushion in the prison estate, because we do not know what number of prisoners will come. I know the consequences, which some of my predecessors have encountered, of running out of places in the prisons, and for that reason, I am glad to say, we were able to cope—there is still sufficient capacity—and it is very important that we continue to do so.

Tom Brake Portrait Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
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Has the Secretary of State had time to consider the Make Justice Work report, “Community or Custody?” which sets out clearly how much more effective properly managed community sentences are than short-term prison sentences, and the potential for greater use of community sentences to push down the prison population?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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We have to have all forms of punishment available, because no two cases are the same. What is likely to be most effective with one offender may not be with another. We do have to punish, and then we have to see what we can do to rehabilitate and prevent people from reoffending. But I quite agree: for some prisoners, the best effect from the public point of view—returning them to an honest life—can be achieved by non-custodial sentences, and the Government hope to make them more credible to magistrates and to strengthen them, so they can be used effectively in suitable cases.

Sadiq Khan Portrait Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
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The Secretary of State has, on a number of occasions, said and written that he intends to reduce the prison population significantly over this Parliament. As he has confirmed, 16 months into the Parliament, the prison population is at a record high. It was also at a very high level before the riots. As he is aware, the prison estate is struggling to cope. Prison officers and probation officers are increasingly stretched, and prisoners are spending even longer times idling in their cells rather than engaged in productive activities such as work. In the light of that, is he still committed to reducing the prison population significantly, and if so, how will he do it in a way that puts public protection first?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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I do not think I have ever said that. I have made it quite clear that the prison population responds to demand. I did not anticipate the riots, but we have to have a prison population that can cope with the judgment of judges and magistrates who send us a number of people who have to be dealt with and punished in that way. I have said that I expect to have a more stable system, but I cannot understand why everything possible was done under the last Government to push up the total number of prisoners but to let them all out earlier, so that the system looked tough but actually turned into something of a shambles. I am also hoping that prison can be made somewhat more effective, and that it might be better at putting people to work, getting them off drugs, tackling their mental health problems and getting fewer of them to go on to commit more crimes—

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. I am grateful, but we must move on.

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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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Compensation for victims of terrorism overseas is being considered alongside the Government’s review of victims’ services and compensation in this country, at the conclusion of which we will publish a consultation document. We plan to make an announcement on the victims of terrorism overseas at the same time as we launch the consultation.

Gemma Doyle Portrait Gemma Doyle
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I thank the Minister, but the families of the victims of overseas terrorism and the survivors were promised on 28 June that an announcement would be made “in the coming weeks”. Some two and a half months have now passed with no announcement. How much longer should the victims and their families expect to wait?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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I have to confess that the hon. Lady has a valid point on the timing, but the fact is that it makes sense to consider the victim support that we give, the present criminal injuries compensation scheme and the support that the Foreign Office gives overseas alongside the proposed terrorism compensation scheme. This has always been a great difficulty over the years. We can all recall that, probably over the past 20 years, people’s aspirations to help victims here and abroad have run rather ahead of the arrangements made to finance them. I assure the hon. Lady that we are having to look at this again. I realise that we are slipping behind the timetable that we announced, but we will proceed as quickly as we can.

Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
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15. What recent assessment he has made of the operation of the courts during the public disorder of August 2011.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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The courts responded swiftly, fairly and properly during the recent public disorder and continue to process cases as soon as they are brought by the prosecution. Although it is too early to make a final assessment of the courts response to the disorder, my Department is reviewing all aspects of the response to find out whether opportunities for continued improvement in public service can be identified.

Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman
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I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer. One of the lessons of the riots was that those who were responsible were arrested, held on remand and processed through the courts and, if found guilty, began their sentences almost immediately, thus protecting the public and acting as a significant deterrent to others. Surely, that should be the norm, rather than the exception.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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First, I have already praised the staff of all the services involved for the service that they delivered, and I think that we have all noticed that it was possible to handle certainly the straightforward cases much more quickly than we have become too used to regarding as the norm elsewhere. Obviously, we realise that we cannot expect such extraordinary efforts to be made all the time and in all normal circumstances, but efficiency can be improved. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice is taking a particular interest in improving the efficiency of the system and learning the best lessons that we can from our welcome experience of the riots.

Kerry McCarthy Portrait Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
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It seems that in the immediate aftermath of the riots, in many cases, courts completely dispensed with asking for pre-sentence reports. One of the consequences was that parents of young children received custodial sentences, and no regard at all was paid to what would happen to those children. Does the Secretary of State agree that when parents are sentenced to custody, there ought to be automatic checks on what happens to the children?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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My colleagues and I have just been checking with each other, and we all think—well, we all know—that pre-sentence reports were provided. One cannot proceed to swift justice without getting the necessary information about the circumstances of the client and their family. I am sure that pre-sentence reports were, in fact, required by courts, and they can certainly be obtained at adequate length in the time available if one is moving briskly. Of course, all the sentences are open to appeal, and the situation and the consequences can all be looked at in the normal way that always follows a sentence involving someone with family responsibilities.

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
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16. What plans he has to improve the efficiency of the criminal justice system.

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Bridget Phillipson Portrait Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
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T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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I begin by making a topical statement, Mr Speaker, controlling my breathing carefully as I do. Last week, as well as announcing plans to allow cameras into courts, I outlined plans to open up the justice system by publishing unprecedented local data. We will publish data on court performance, sentencing and reoffending, and provide information on what happens next following a crime, alongside street-level crime data. That will allow people to see how the criminal justice system operates in their area. We will also encourage consistent publication of the names of offenders unlawfully at large; that will help in apprehending them and returning them to custody. Those measures will place the crime and justice sector at the forefront of the Government’s policy on transparency.

Bridget Phillipson Portrait Bridget Phillipson
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We have seen real success across Sunderland in reducing reoffending year on year. Of course, more needs to be done to tackle that, but it has been put at risk by cuts to the local probation trust. Does the Lord Chancellor think that reoffending rates will be higher or lower by the end of this Parliament?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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Criminal statistics are more reliable than they used to be, but I still do not have total confidence in them, and I would certainly never make forecasts with them because crime trends are very difficult to predict. However, I am glad that success has been achieved in Sunderland on reoffending, which we propose to make the prime focus of our policy: punish offenders effectively and, at the same time, try to stop them offending again.

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
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T2. In Worcestershire, we have had persistent problems with Travellers who refuse to respect the law. My fellow MPs in the county have recently written to the Justice Secretary with some suggestions about that, and I know that he is considering them. Does he agree that we should help Travellers to preserve their way of life—their travelling way of life—by moving them on?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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This is a difficult subject, and it certainly needs to be looked at all the time. I agree: my experience in my part of the world is that many Travellers do not travel as frequently as they are supposed to, and they are fond of occupying vacant land and building houses on it, while still describing themselves as Travellers. The subject is more complex than that, and if we can make any improvements to the law that protect the legitimate interests of society as a whole, we will certainly do so.

Helen Goodman Portrait Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
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Last week, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), defended the Government’s narrow definition of domestic violence in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill with these words:

“We are concerned that to include admission to a refuge in the criteria would be to rely on self-reporting…We are not persuaded that medical professionals would be best placed to assess whether domestic violence has occurred. Although they may witness injuries…nor would the fact of a police investigation without more evidence provide sufficient evidence”.––[Official Report, Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Public Bill Committee, 6 September 2011; c. 359-60.]

Women in this country will be appalled by those remarks. Would the Under-Secretary like to take them back, and also change his definition in the Bill?

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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Kenneth Clarke
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We intend to apply exactly the same policy in all sensible ways to the prison system generally as far as is practicable. We publish more figures all the time about reoffending rates and we will certainly be open about our success in extending the policy of providing more worthwhile working opportunities for prisoners, because getting them back into the habit of work is one way of getting them to live as responsible citizens in a normal society.

Baroness Keeley Portrait Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
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T3. Using a restricted definition of domestic violence, as discussed a moment ago, will penalise victims of domestic violence, many of whom suffer for long periods before they begin to report incidents to the police. Will the Minister, given that he appears to be in some difficulty over this, consider meeting organisations working on domestic violence to work out how to make that definition work?

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Julie Hilling Portrait Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
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T5. There are 66 people in Bolton and more than 10,000 across the UK who are still driving with more than 12 points on their driving licence. Many are repeat offenders of the offences of speeding and driving without insurance and have more than 20 points. Is there a problem with the legislation or are judges being too lenient? Will the Secretary of State investigate?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Kenneth Clarke
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I think the answer is that we will investigate. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for the figures. They sound astonishing, so I look forward to her providing me with sufficient details for myself and my ministerial team to find out what lies behind them.

Steve Barclay Portrait Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
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T9. The building that formerly housed Wisbech magistrates court is owned by the Ministry of Justice and is in a prime site next to the historic port in Wisbech and a couple of yards from a conference centre. Will my hon. Friend the Minister meet me to discuss how we best use the site for regeneration so that it does not get locked in the stalemate that there has been with the police service locally?

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Angela Smith Portrait Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
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T7. In the aftermath of the riots that so rocked the country last month, what lessons does the Justice Secretary think can be learned about the need to respond swiftly to public outrage at the actions of a lawless minority, balanced with the need to deliver justice?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Kenneth Clarke
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We obviously have to study the events closely, looking for any lessons we can learn from recent experience. More and more facts will come to light, upon which we can base firm conclusions. The question that the hon. Lady raises about the rapidity of the response in the early days to the first threats to public order and to citizens is not primarily for my Department, but I know that the Home Office is taking it extremely seriously. It is easy with hindsight to criticise operational decisions. What is important is looking to see how we can improve the response in the future.

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
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Is it not bizarre that many Travellers originate in Ireland? The Irish Government changed their law, so now the Travellers have moved to England. In his review, will the Justice Secretary learn from how the Human Rights Act in Ireland does not prevent Travellers from being moved on?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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I agree that there is a problem. Let us be clear. Travellers, like anybody else, are entitled to the protection of the law and are also subject to the law. We have to deal with Travellers on the basis of how they behave, not start going against them as a class. But we have to look at how the operation of the law at present is enabling people to lead a somewhat odd way of life which is totally at variance with that which is led by the rest of the population, and to seek to disregard laws to which everybody else is subject. I am not sure that the Human Rights Act and human rights legislation generally is terribly relevant, but if it gets drawn in, we will look and see what it can do to help with the case.

Bill Esterson Portrait Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
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T8. The Government cancelled the building of the Maghull prison after work had already started. Will the Lord Chancellor take this opportunity to tell my constituents what plans he has for the site, to allay their concerns about the Maghull prison site and nearby greenfield projects, which developers are eyeing up?

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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Kenneth Clarke
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It depends on what they have done for which they have to be punished. I do not think that prison is the right place for people who pose no risk to the public, but if they have done something heinous, they have to be punished in a way that the public regard as proportionate to the crime. We are paying considerable attention to the problem of women in prisons. There are too many. The combination of problems is sometimes quite specific, and in many cases there are multiple problems. Anything that can sensibly be done to improve the way we handle women prisoners, with proper regard to punishment and the protection of the public, we will do.

Gregg McClymont Portrait Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
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T10. Further to the question raised by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), without legal aid or Government financial backing for the fee arrangements, how can we ensure that overseas victims of alleged human rights abuses by UK multinational companies get justice?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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They have the jurisdiction. Britain entertains these personal injuries cases, these actions in tort, against multinational companies that have an adequate presence here in a perfectly open way, but it is still necessary for the costs of a case to be proportionate to the claim. We do not want people coming here and bringing their cases in British courts because the costs available to the lawyers greatly exceed those which could be attained by bringing similar cases in other jurisdictions.

George Eustice Portrait George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)
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Does the Secretary of State agree that we need to do more to curb the compensation culture in this country and that one way of doing so would be to ensure that plaintiffs incur some form of financial risk in bringing their case so that they focus their minds on the merits of their case?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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I am glad to say that I agree with my hon. Friend’s every word. There is a compensation culture. We are taking practical steps to get it back to common sense.

Meg Munn Portrait Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
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The Secretary of State has stated his commitment to rehabilitation as a priority. Probation officers are key to this. They often need highly developed skills, particularly when working with violent offenders and sex offenders. Is he committed not only to maintaining levels of funding for probation officers, but increasing it in order to continue the downward trend in crime that continued under a Labour Government?

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Ian Paisley Portrait Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
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Can the Secretary of State inform the House what efforts he is making to ensure that sentencing policy and practice is consistent across all parts of the United Kingdom for rioters, and that rioters in Rasharkin and Belfast who try to kill police officers and damage property will face the same swift, certain and good judgment faced by rioters in England?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Kenneth Clarke
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I realise that our fellow citizens in Ulster have unfortunately had just as much experience of rioting as some of our British cities have. Among the many things that we must look at when we get the full facts about the very good response of our courts and criminal justice system to the recent English riots is how it compares with the experience in Northern Ireland. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there should be some general consistency of approach, with swift and firm justice, particularly when rioting is taking place, because it stops people imitating it and lessens the likelihood that the disorder will spread.

Tom Brake Portrait Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
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On the subject of payment by results, what guarantee can Ministers give that small providers will win some contracts and that small and large providers will have to make information about their performance publicly available?

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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Kenneth Clarke
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I made some cautious remarks a little earlier about criminal justice statistics. There is a very small number of people on indeterminate sentences who have ever been released, and I am very glad that there has been a low level of reoffending.

We are committed to ending that system. We have 3,500 people who have finished their normal sentence—that is, the tariff—and are unable to satisfy the Parole Board that they can be released, but we are looking at all those cases to find the best possible way of ensuring that the bulk of them do not reoffend. Some of them always will, however, and we cannot avoid that.

Lord Hanson of Flint Portrait Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
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On the question of compensation for overseas terrorism, will the Secretary of State confirm that any scheme eventually brought in will apply from 18 January 2010, as originally proposed by the previous Labour Government?

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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I do not want to trail parts of the announcement that we will make when we are able to start the consultation, but I do remember very clearly that that was the commitment upon which everybody has been firmly proceeding.

None Portrait Several hon. Members
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rose

UK Bill of Rights

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Thursday 8th September 2011

(13 years, 3 months ago)

Written Statements
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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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The Government established an independent commission to investigate the creation of a UK Bill of Rights in March 2011, fulfilling a commitment made in our programme for government. The commission has been asked to explore a range of issues surrounding human rights law in the UK and also to provide interim advice on reform of the European Court of Human Rights ahead of our chairmanship of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, which begins in November 2011 and runs for six months.

I am today placing in the Library of the House copies of two letters received from Sir Leigh Lewis, the chair of the commission on a Bill of Rights, which have been sent jointly to the Deputy Prime Minister and myself. The first letter contains the interim advice which the commission was asked to provide to the Government on reform of the European Court of Human Rights, in advance of the UK’s chairmanship of the Council of Europe. The second letter sets out a number of issues on which the commission has not yet reached conclusions, and which it intends to continue to consider as part of its work programme.

The Government welcome the commission’s interim advice on the reform of the European Court of Human Rights. Our top priority when we take over the chairmanship of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe will be to deliver and build upon the ongoing reform process. It must focus on the most important cases and have proper regard to the judgment of national Parliaments and courts. It must operate more effectively and efficiently as a proper safeguard against human rights abuses. Our plans will be informed by the commission’s advice. The commission will continue to explore the case for a UK Bill of Rights, and we look forward to receiving its final report by the end of next year.

Convention on Torture (Periodic Report)

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Tuesday 6th September 2011

(13 years, 3 months ago)

Written Statements
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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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I have today placed in the Libraries of both Houses copies of the UK’s fifth periodic report under the convention against torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. I intend to send the report to the United Nations Committee Against Torture immediately, with a request that the committee post the report on its website.

The report sets out how the UK is fulfilling its undertakings under the convention, and updates the UN on developments since the examination of the UK’s fourth report in November 2004. It draws attention to recent initiatives with regard to the treatment of people in detention: publication of guidance on the treatment of detainees, and establishment of the detainee inquiry. Non-governmental organisations and members of civil society in the UK have had the opportunity to comment on the report in draft, and the Government have taken into account many of their comments and suggestions.

Transparency in the Justice System

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Tuesday 6th September 2011

(13 years, 3 months ago)

Written Statements
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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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Open justice is a long-standing and fundamental principle of our legal system. Justice must be done and must be seen to be done if it is to command public confidence.

This Government are determined to open up the justice system and have ambitious plans to increase transparency at every stage to allow everyone to see what is happening and how the system works.

Central to achieving this objective is a plan to publish far more and better data on justice:

On 29 September 2011, my Department will publish statistics by region which show the efficiency of the courts and tribunals in progressing cases. This will include brand new statistics on the time from the date an offence is committed to the date the case is finally dealt with by the criminal courts, whether at a magistrates court or the Crown Court.

On 12 January 2012, this will be extended down to court level. These data will include the number and type of cases dealt with at each court or local justice area, how long cases take to complete, as well as how many criminal trials could not commence on the scheduled date and how many had to be abandoned. The data will also allow the public to see the number of civil hearings and trials dealt with at courts in their area, how long it takes these cases to progress, and in family courts how long it takes for care proceedings cases to complete.

On 27 October 2011 we will publish reoffending rates for every probation trust and prison in England and Wales, along with anonymised datasets showing whether individual proven offenders go on to reoffend for each local area.

On 24 November 2011, we will publish, alongside our regular quarterly criminal justice system statistics, anonymised datasets on each case sentenced. This will include the sentence given, the court, the age group, gender and ethnicity of those sentenced, and the time from when the offence was committed to when the case was complete.

From May 2012 onwards, the national crime mapping website, police.uk, will provide the public with information on what happens next for crimes committed in their streets, so they can see what action the police took and the outcome of any subsequent court case.

In addition to providing more data, I am determined to reform fundamentally the way the justice system operates so it is more open. The names of offenders who are unlawfully at large can be—and often are—published by police forces to help bring these people back to custody—where they should be. We are committed to removing all unnecessary barriers to the naming of these offenders and to promoting best practice and consistency across all police forces.

Today, I can also announce my intention to legislate, as soon as parliamentary time allows, to remove the ban on cameras in courts.

As a starting point, judgments in the Court of Appeal will be broadcast for the first time. I want to see this expanded to the Crown Court, but I will work closely with the Lord Chief Justice and Judiciary on how this could be achieved.

I will consult further on the detailed approach, but I am clear that this must not give offenders opportunities for theatrical public display. We will work to ensure this does not hinder the administration of justice and that it protects victims, witnesses, offenders and jurors.

Collectively, these plans will open the justice system in an unprecedented manner, allowing the public to judge for themselves how we are performing and to hold us to account.

Victims of Crime Directive

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Monday 5th September 2011

(13 years, 3 months ago)

Written Statements
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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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The Government have decided to opt in to the directive on establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of victims of crime. The directive meets the criteria set out in the coalition agreement with regard to EU Justice and Home Affairs measures.

In accordance with the coalition agreement, the Government have stated that they will approach forthcoming legislation in the area of criminal justice on a case-by-case basis, with a view to maximising our country’s security, protecting Britain’s civil liberties and preserving the integrity of our criminal justice systems. By opting in to this directive we will have the opportunity to strongly influence the text and ensure that the minimum standards victims can expect throughout the EU are clear, appropriate and affordable.

We welcome the proposed directive, which will benefit UK citizens who are victims in other EU member states. They will be afforded minimum rights, support and protection to a level similar to that they would receive as a victim of crime in the UK. The directive will allow UK citizens to move throughout the EU with confidence that should they fall victim to crime in any member state, their rights will be respected when participating in criminal proceedings and they will be able to access a minimum level of support across the EU.

Office for Judicial Complaints

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Thursday 14th July 2011

(13 years, 5 months ago)

Written Statements
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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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With the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice, I will today publish the annual report of the Office for Judicial Complaints (OJC). The OJC provides support to the Lord Chief Justice and myself in our joint responsibility for the system of judicial complaints and discipline.

This report is the fifth published by the OJC, and marks the end of a year which has seen the OJC transition from an arm’s-length body, sponsored by the Ministry of Justice, to become a part of the Judicial Office, which supports the Lord Chief Justice and senior judiciary in discharging their responsibilities.

While now a part of the Judicial Office, the OJC retains both its operational and decision-making independence and continues to report to both myself and the Lord Chief Justice on matters relating to judicial conduct and discipline. I am confident that this arrangement will realise significant administrative and organisational savings while protecting the independence of the investigatory and disciplinary process.

I am pleased to note that the OJC continues to deliver an effective complaint-handling service to all of its customers, which is both transparent and efficient; processing over 1,600 complaints and 800 inquiries in the last year. None the less, it is always possible to seek further efficiencies and improvements and to that end the Lord Chief Justice and I have agreed that the OJC should conduct a thorough review of the Judicial Discipline (Prescribed Procedures) Regulations to identify any areas where the disciplinary process may be improved or streamlined. That review is ongoing and the OJC will be consulting key stakeholders and inviting submissions from interested parties before providing both the Lord Chief Justice and myself with recommendations in 2012.

Copies of the report are available in the Libraries of both Houses, the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. Copies of the report are also available on the internet at http://www.judicialcomplaints.gov.uk/publications/publications.htm.

Justice's of the Peace Act 1949 (Compensation) Regulations

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Thursday 14th July 2011

(13 years, 5 months ago)

Written Statements
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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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I am announcing today that I have approved a recommendation by Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service that the Justice of the Peace Act 1949 (Compensation) Regulations as amended (known as “Crombie” regulations) are to be revoked by a statutory instrument that will be laid before Parliament on the 14 July 2011.

Under arrangements dating back to 1949 justices’ clerks and their assistants are currently entitled to receive higher compensation than other civil servants—in certain circumstances—for loss of office, resettlement and retirement. We have a duty to ensure that we get value for taxpayers’ money and following consultation the Ministry of Justice has decided to revoke this entitlement.

All civil servants, including justices’ clerks and their assistants will continue to benefit from the protection of the civil service compensation scheme.

Copies of the response to consultation on the proposal to revoke the “Crombie” regulations have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

Prison and Probation Services (England and Wales)

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Wednesday 13th July 2011

(13 years, 5 months ago)

Written Statements
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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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In the response to the Green Paper, “Breaking the Cycle: Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation and Sentencing of Offenders”, I set out a vision for a transformed justice system that will focus on public protection and cutting crime. An important part of delivering the changes I am committed to is ensuring that the services we provide are focused on delivering the best possible outcomes and the greatest value for money.

Competition between providers of our services can help us to meet these challenges as the previous Government recognised when they made contestability a feature of offender services when setting up the National Offender Management Service in 2004. The “Competition Strategy for Offender Services”, which I have published today, sets out how we will change the way we use competition to meet these aims. My approach is based on ensuring an effective balance between making services more efficient while reforming them so that they provide better outcomes for the public. In doing so, we will draw on a wide range of expertise from the private and voluntary sector, which will work in partnership with a strong public sector.

For offender services, I intend to employ the principle that competition will apply at some stage to all those services not currently bound to public sector delivery by statute. This will mean the benefits of competition can be felt much more widely, contrasting with the previous approach of only using competition when procuring new services or as a way of managing poor performance.

Underpinning this approach will be our commitment to apply more widely the principles of payment by results to services which reduce reoffending. By paying some or all of a contract value on the basis of the reduced reoffending levels achieved, we can focus service providers’ efforts on what works. This will ensure that money spent on rehabilitation is spent effectively. We intend to run a number of pilot exercises and competition will be a key mechanism in deciding which models we adopt.

In practice, this will mean taking a different approach for both custodial and non-custodial services. The use of competition in custodial services is now well established, as most recently demonstrated by the successful outcome of the competition for four prisons which I announced in March this year.

To ensure that we build on this strong record I am announcing today my intention to launch competitions for the management of a further nine prisons in the autumn. These are Lindholme, Moorland, Hatfield and The Wolds in Yorkshire, Acklington and Castington in Northumberland, Durham, Onley in Northamptonshire and Coldingley in Surrey. The Wolds is a prison run by G4S that has come to the end of its current contract; the other eight prisons are public sector establishments being competed for the first time. The public sector will have the opportunity to compete in all of these prison competitions.

These prisons have been selected by the National Offender Management Service to balance our need to increase efficiency and to make real the policy intent of the Green Paper.

Looking to the future, there is a need to consider the future shape of probation services in England and Wales to improve justice outcomes and to make the justice system more efficient and effective. I have asked my officials to explore the possible options for service improvements and different models of delivering offender services within the community. I will set out my preferred approach in the autumn. Alongside this, and supporting it, I will set out in detail my competition strategy for non-custodial services, which will also encompass the recently launched competition for community payback services, the competition for electronic monitoring contracts I am announcing today, and payment-by-results pilots in the community.

A further important element of our drive for greater efficiency is to ensure we have a modern, fit-for-purpose prison estate which can deliver high-quality, cost-effective and secure regimes. With the prison population not growing at the rate predicted by the last Government, we have an opportunity to close some of our more inefficient places.

I am therefore announcing the closure of HMPs Latchmere House and Brockhill. This will see a reduction of 377 prison spaces. This is part of an overall programme which includes a further 2,500 new prison places becoming available over the next 12 months. This will ensure that our operational capacity continues to handle the projected prison population in a way which meets the need both for greater efficiency and ability to support a strengthened focus on protection of the public and rehabilitation.

The closure of these places will provide estimated cost savings of £4.9 million this year and an on-going annual saving of £11.4 million. We also anticipate capital receipts from sale of the land at Latchmere House, which is in a prime location. We will transfer resettlement provision from that establishment to HMP Brixton to maintain our focus on reducing reoffending. We expect to be able to absorb staff displaced by this process elsewhere in the system and to avoid the use of compulsory redundancies.

The public have a right to expect continuing improvement in the quality and efficiency of public services, without compromising public safety. The competition strategy and adjustments to the prison estate I have outlined today will help ensure that this is the case.

Copies of the “Offender Services Competition Strategy” have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The document is also available online, at www.justice.gov.uk/publications/corporate-reports/moj/oscs.htm.

Public Bodies Reform

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Tuesday 12th July 2011

(13 years, 5 months ago)

Written Statements
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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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Today I have laid before Parliament a public consultation document; “Consultation on reforms proposed in the Public Bodies Bill—Reforming the public bodies of the Ministry of Justice”.

The consultation details our reform proposals in relation to those Ministry of Justice bodies included in the Public Bodies Bill, which is currently before this House. While clause 10 of the Bill requires consultation of certain specified groups, I have decided that this should be a public consultation to ensure details of my Department’s proposals are available to as many interested parties as possible.

Reducing the number and costs of public bodies is a key Government commitment and the proposals in this consultation build on previous announcements relating to public bodies reform. All Ministry of Justice public bodies have been reviewed over the last year. We have considered whether particular bodies and their associated functions are still needed and assessed our public bodies against agreed criteria for reform. These criteria were intended to increase Government accountability; eliminate duplication of activity and discontinue activities that no longer need to take place.

I am confident that the proposed reforms set out in the consultation document will address these aims and enable the Ministry of Justice to make a significant contribution to the Government’s reform of public bodies.

I will carefully consider the consultation responses before bringing forward any order in relation to any of the Ministry of Justice bodies in the Bill.

Rights and Protection of Victims

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Excerpts
Monday 11th July 2011

(13 years, 5 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
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I beg to move,

That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 10610/11 and Addenda 1 and 2 relating to the Draft Directive establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of victims of crime, No. 10613/11 and Addenda 1 and 2 relating to the Draft Regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters, No. 10612/11 and Addenda 1 and 2 relating to a Commission Communication–strengthening victims’ rights in the EU and the unnumbered Explanatory Memorandum dated 16 May 2011 relating to a Council Resolution on a Roadmap for strengthening the rights and protection of victims, in particular in criminal proceedings; and welcomes the opportunity to consider views on whether the UK should opt in to the draft Directive establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of victims and the Draft Regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters.

I thank the European Scrutiny Committee for calling the debate. The Government are currently actively considering in detail the European Commission’s proposals on victims, and in particular whether the United Kingdom should opt into the proposed directive on victims and regulation on protection orders. There has already been some scrutiny of the protection order regulation, but it is useful to have this opportunity to hear Members’ views on the proposals on the Floor of the House, to inform our decisions.

The Government are obviously committed to supporting the victims of crime. One of the main objects of the criminal justice system, as well as punishing those guilty of serious criminal offences, is offering protection and support to the victims of crime. We welcome the priority that the European Commission is giving the matter and the further impetus provided by the Hungarian Government, who will hold the presidency of the European Union for the second half of this year. There was a Budapest declaration setting out their intention, supported by the Council of the European Union, to deal with various matters concerning the victims of crime in the course of their presidency.

I am glad to say that this country is seen by the Commission as an example of best practice on supporting victims. The Government hope to strengthen what we do, but there is no doubt that we are well ahead of the vast majority of members of the European Union in what we do now.

The thing that the House should particularly have regard to is that our own citizens are increasingly travelling and working across the EU. If a British citizen is unfortunate enough to fall victim to crime in another member state, I do not think that they always get the level of support that they would expect in similar circumstances in the United Kingdom. The Government see one of the main attractions of this package of work as, among other things, helping our citizens to get the full support that they ought to have in a modern and civilised state when they are victims of crime. We want to ensure that British citizens are provided with the information, support and protection that they rightly expect to receive when they fall victim to crime in any EU member state.

My officials have been working with the Commission to share our experiences of supporting victims, and to consider how the existing EU framework agreement on the subject might be improved. The Commission, I am glad to say, has taken on board many of our suggestions in its recent proposals. I am especially pleased that the proposed directive takes into account the particular role of victims in our common law system. We encounter drafting problems at least in quite a lot of proposals in this field, because, like the Irish, Cypriots and Maltese, we tend to have a common law system, whereas the rest of Europe does not. It is necessary to ensure that the procedural differences and the practices of different countries are respected in such proposals.

The Government are committed to targeting resources towards those victims who need them the most. We continue to develop our own proposals on victims—we hope to come forward with some in the autumn—but meanwhile, we will continue to work with our European partners to ensure that any EU action on victims supports our approach. We are particularly trying to ensure that any requirements imposed upon or accepted by member states are proportionate to the needs of victims and properly targeted on those with the most important needs.

I wait to hear whether there are any objections in principle to the objectives being pursued by the Commission and the Hungarian presidency, and the vast majority of the member states on the European Council—as far as I am aware, that means all member states on the Council—but I think they are unlikely. It is plainly desirable that we consider spreading best practice across the Union when it comes to protecting victims of any nationality who have the misfortune to fall prey to crime in any of our countries. However, I look forward to hearing the views of right hon. and hon. Members on any particular aspects of the package of proposals before us to which they want to draw the House’s and the Government’s attention.

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Mike Weatherley Portrait Mike Weatherley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, but I am afraid that he is sadly mistaken, for various reasons that I shall come to. I agree that the EU quite often meddles unnecessarily, but occasionally some standardisation across Europe is welcome, and this is one of those situations.

I mentioned that our system of victim support is better than those of other countries around Europe, but this position is by no means assured. After all, it has been eroded in several key areas. One is the example of funding for Victim Support—a charity that provides an invaluable service to victims of crime. Its funding has been cut, which is a great shame. Also, over a number of years, we have seen certain crimes such as shoplifting downgraded. Indeed, the Sentencing Commission does not formally recognise the vulnerability of shop workers as particular victims of crime, despite last year being a record period for crimes committed in shops, ranging from shoplifting to murders in the process of robbery. The Government could also do more to support the private sector in schemes such as Facewatch, piloted in London by the Metropolitan police and now spreading across the UK.

Victims of crime currently have the right to receive a basic level of service for each criminal justice agency under the code of practice for victims of crime. Everything that victims are entitled to under the code is pretty basic and the sort of thing that one would assume victims would receive automatically. The Government, however, have already removed the duty on local criminal justice boards to report their compliance with the victims code, which means no one is monitoring compliance with the code or holding agencies to account when they fail to comply with it. There is a danger that the Government will seek to downgrade the code or abolish it altogether. That would mean that a victim of crime would have no statutory right to a decent level of service from the criminal justice system. Abolishing or downgrading the code would be a serious retrograde step that would turn the clock back on victims’ rights.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Kenneth Clarke
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I would like to give my hon. Friend an assurance on that in case I forget to reply to his point later. We realise that the code needs modernising, but we do not have the faintest intention of repealing or abolishing it. I can give my hon. Friend that assurance straight away—before some rumour is accidentally set flying.

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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Kenneth Clarke
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It is a long time since I have taken part in a debate on the Floor of the House on any European subject that was completely free of any controversy. [Interruption.] Certain Members were not here. We all congratulate the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, the hon. Member for Stafford, on selecting the measure for debate, because we all agree on the great importance of giving better protection to victims of crime, not only in this country but across the European Union.

William Cash Portrait Mr Cash
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am sorry to have to remind my right hon. and learned Friend that, in fact, I am now the hon. Member for Stone. It was during the Maastricht debates that I was the hon. Member for Stafford.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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I will not weigh up the issue of whether Stafford has lost or gained, or whether Stone has benefited or been deprived, but I enjoyed the debates on the Maastricht treaty. We were not quite as close on that occasion as we are on the directive.

This is an extremely important subject, and there is general agreement that the framework agreement of 2001 is not adequate and should be improved, which is the objective of the Commission’s documents. The proposals have received extremely widespread support, and were movingly supported by Members whose constituents had been adversely affected. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) cited the case of Mr and Mrs Dunne, and a constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) was murdered in Spain. The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) discussed difficulties that he had encountered. As I said at the beginning of our debate, we are trying to raise European standards on the issue because many British citizens go abroad and their families would benefit if minimum standards—and we hope very adequate standards—were in place throughout all member countries.

It was claimed that that could be achieved by bilateral agreements with other member states. With respect, I do not think that that is practicable. The notion that bilateral agreements have to be negotiated with 26 EU member states, where the tradition of supporting victims is variable and in some cases far below that in the UK, is not the best way to proceed. I was urged by other speakers to support the Commission and the Hungarian presidency’s Budapest declaration to see what we can do to strengthen support for everyone.

Reference was made to the work of Louise Casey, the victims commissioner, who shares the views of my hon. Friends and of the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby about the importance of considering the problems experienced by bereaved families. Victim Support, the biggest organisation in the field of victim support, supports the proposed directive, and it has urged the Government to take a constructive approach to it. It was said that its funding had been cut, but we have responded to the opinions expressed by the victims commissioner. We need to make sure that specialist, targeted support is available for vulnerable victims. Many hon. Members have been victims of crime—probably, almost everyone—but people do not always need counselling and support afterwards. Bereaved families, however, are a particular concern of Louise Casey, who has produced a report on the subject. We have given extra support to specialist services for bereaved families and victims of rape and sexual assault. More targeted support is required. We have a code of practice in this country that also needs to be revised and improved in the light of experience, and everybody is pressing in the same direction on that.

The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) was pretty supportive of the proposals before us. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), he talked particularly about protection orders. The idea of mutual recognition of protection orders throughout the European Union is very valuable. These orders are usually given when someone is being harassed, often by a husband, partner or spouse with a history of domestic violence. If we do not have mutual recognition of the orders, the consequence is that every time anybody travels in Europe, they are obliged to try to get a fresh court order in the area where they are then living and give evidence again about the same experiences. Where possible, we should support this move. We have already opted into the criminal law directive on the subject, and we will do so on the civil order once we have scrutinised it to make sure that the two will work together and that particular burdens are not put on us.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone talked about the possible resource and administrative implications for this country. I do not see any insuperable problems in the proposals, but we will obviously have to scrutinise them in detail because we cannot accept unnecessary extra resources or administrative burdens being demanded of us. That is highly unlikely because we are so far ahead in the field compared with most other member states, but we will bear that concern in mind.

William Cash Portrait Mr Cash
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

rose

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
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I will give way one last time.

William Cash Portrait Mr Cash
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will my right hon. and learned Friend also bear in mind the severe criticisms, most of which are entirely justified, about our moving generally towards a compensation culture?

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Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Clarke
- Hansard - -

Compensation for victims has been established here for very many years. We would like to see good standards established throughout the European Union because British subjects are victims of crime when they travel and should be entitled to compensation. We have to get the balance right between the proportionality that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South talked about and the excessive burdens that my hon. Friend the Member for Stone warned against. That is the kind of thing that we can do in the detailed negotiations that will undoubtedly have to take place before the directive can be applied.

I welcome this debate. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South raised, as he was quite entitled to, all kinds of aspects of victim support of a wholly domestic nature to which we will pay attention, as we are hoping to modernise our own code. I assure right hon. and hon. Members that we work very closely with the victims commissioner in this whole field and greatly value the contribution that she makes as an advocate of the victim’s cause. I also assure Members that decisions on opt-ins are guided, in the end, by what we regard as in the interests of British citizens and the national interest within the European Union. However, I take on board the feeling in the House that increased co-operation in this respect is plainly desirable as a benefit to all those Europeans who travel frequently throughout the Union. We will certainly take on board the views expressed by Members who have taken part in the debate when we take our decisions on all these subjects.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 10610/11 and Addenda 1 and 2 relating to the Draft Directive establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of victims of crime, No. 10613/11 and Addenda 1 and 2 relating to the Draft Regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters, No. 10612/11 and Addenda 1 and 2 relating to a Commission Communication–strengthening victims’ rights in the EU and the unnumbered Explanatory Memorandum dated 16 May 2011 relating to a Council Resolution on a Roadmap for strengthening the rights and protection of victims, in particular in criminal proceedings; and welcomes the opportunity to consider views on whether the UK should opt in to the draft Directive establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of victims and the Draft Regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters.