Local Audit (Appointing Person) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my relevant interests as a vice-president of the Local Government Association, a member of Kirklees Council and a member of that council’s audit and governance committee.

The Redmond review into local authority financial reporting and audit is far-reaching in its recommendations and broadly welcomed by those in local government, who want greater simplicity and transparency in financial reporting and auditing. One challenge facing local government audit requirements is the narrowing number of private audit firms willing to take on such audits. Yet sound auditing is an essential prerequisite for value-for-money judgments and financial transparency, as local government financing becomes ever more complex.

The proposals in this SI tackle some of the issues regarding process. These relate to fee scales, deadlines, standard fee variations and the length of time for which an auditor is appointed. Setting the end of November as the deadline for setting fee scales so that up-to-date information can be included in the calculation seems sensible, as does setting standardised fee variations. However, can the Minister confirm that such fee variations will be in proportion to the local authority accounts being audited?

I have some concerns about the potential for an auditor to be appointed for as long a period as five years. As external auditors rely heavily on a good working relationship with the local authority finance team and its internal auditors, there is always a risk that a cosy relationship develops. Can the Minister explain the thinking behind the ability for the same auditor, rather than the same audit company, to continue for five years? An explanation of the criteria that will be used by the appointing person to appoint for shorter periods “where desirable” would be helpful, as would an outline of the circumstances for audit firm rotation partway through an audit period, to understand the thinking behind that. If the Minister does not have all that in front of him, it would be good if he could write me a note.

There is a far deeper concern with local authority audits than will be dealt with by this SI. The Financial Reporting Council, which regulates the accounting industry, said this year that 60% of the English local authority audits it had reviewed did not meet its required standards. The House of Commons Public Accounts Committee detailed the problems this July. I will quote from the summary of its report, as we need to think about it:

“Without urgent action from government, the audit system for local authorities in England may soon reach breaking point. With approximately £100 billion of local government spending requiring audit each year”,


the Ministry of whatever it is called now—levelling-down, communities and whatever—

“has become increasingly complacent in its oversight of a local audit market now entirely reliant upon only eight firms, two of which are responsible for up to 70% of local authority audits. This has not been helped by the growing complexity of local authority accounts … If local authorities are to effectively recover from the pandemic, it is critical that citizens have the necessary assurances that their finances are in order and being managed in the correct manner.”

Both the FRC and the Public Accounts Committee report raise fundamental issues about local authority auditing which are not addressed by this SI, but which I hope the Minister can respond to either now or in writing. Having said that, with the exception of the questions I raised earlier, I concur with the changes that have been proposed.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I, too, declare my interest to the Grand Committee as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

Audit is about ensuring the proper inspection of a body’s financial affairs, ensuring that the financial dealings of the organisation, and the information that residents get, is correct and proper. It gives confidence to local people and, of course, to the Government and everybody else that an organisation is acting properly—or it identifies irregularities.

I was first elected a councillor in 1986—I am showing my age now. I remember the old district auditor, who used to look after the accounts. Of course, that is now all gone; we have local audits run through the Local Government Association.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, raised an important point on fee scales, what those fees are, when they can be varied and changed, and why. There is also the risk around the relationship: if the same person does the work every year, there may be an issue with things becoming too cosy. For me, there is the whole question of value for money. This is council tax payers’ money that we are spending here—so what are we doing to ensure that, when any fees are varied, we are getting value for money? The noble Baroness made the point that fewer and fewer firms are willing and able to do this work, which is also an issue for the Government to look at.

For me, it is about ensuring that public money is spent wisely, properly and legally. If fees are going to be varied, how do we ensure value for money? Then there is the issue of the reduced number of firms doing this work. How do we ensure that the relationship is not too cosy and is always properly professional? Having said that, I have no issue with the regulations, and I shall leave it there. I hope that the Minister can respond to the issues raised. I know that, if he cannot, he will come back to noble Lords with a letter and place it in the Library of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we have had an interesting short debate on these regulations, and I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. The problem around audit is long-standing. I remember when I first became a councillor, which was a little later than the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, back in January 1996 —a very cold month, if I remember—there were real difficulties with filing accounts on time, even then. This has been a long-standing problem and is not a recent one. Those who have read the Redmond review will recognise that the best way to deal with it is by investing and providing additional funding to support local bodies to improve standards. The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, is important. There is a contribution of some £15 million to support local bodies with rising audit fees, making sure that there is the competence required to file accounts in a timely way.

Often, there will be an issue around reconciliation of accounts, which is quite shocking. If you cannot reconcile your accounts—the fundamental accounts in control—money can be lost. There have been examples of councils losing money. So, having high-quality audit is extremely important, as is the completion of audits, which is vital in maintaining transparency and assurance of local authority accounts. Late delivery of local assurance can have a significant impact, not just on local authority financial planning but on the timely completion of whole government accounts. That is why the Government are continuing to implement all recommendations of the Redmond review, including the regulations before us today.

I will do my best to answer some of the questions and I will follow up in writing if I am not able to. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Jones, the appointing person is specified by the Secretary of State at the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. It is not a salaried position; they are paid by the local authorities. Importantly, we are keen on the use of the scheme through the Local Government Association and Public Sector Audit Appointments Ltd, which has the specific technical expertise. Of course, local authorities can choose who they like. We recognise that this is a good scheme, which happens to be over a five-year period.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, I will write on her specific points about shorter appointments, but all appointments require local authorities to voluntarily opt in. We recently consulted on proposals to establish the audit, reporting and governance authority, which is due to replace the Financial Reporting Council as the new systems leader for local audit. We will publish our consultation response in due course.

This is a largely technical provision, which I think has the support of noble Lords.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I asked whether the standardised variations of the fees would be in proportion to the accounts that were being audited.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that specific point. It is obviously technical in its nature. Public Sector Audit Appointments Ltd will be required to consult local bodies and local auditors before setting standardised fees.

Leaseholders: Costs

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

I call the noble Lord, Lord Haselhurst. Oh, apologies—I call the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my relevant interests as in the register. If the Government are to avoid a torrent of bankruptcies by April next year, as has been predicted by Inside Housing, action must be swift. In particular, I ask the Minister about shared ownership. Somebody with shared equity of 25% is being asked to pay 100% of the remediation costs. That might be right in law, but it cannot be right in fact. What on earth are the Government going to do to safeguard shared owners?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I feel the burden, particularly on shared owners, who have a fraction of the equity in their home but face intolerable bills. I am surprised when I hear that social landlords, who should be caring for the people who live in those homes—the nurses and other people who support our NHS—are considering massive remediation schemes, very often for buildings that really require only mitigation at far lower cost instead. An MP raised a case with me yesterday of a nine-metre building where shared owners are facing bills of £20,000. That is because there is no sense of proportion. Let us get a sense of proportion, protect leaseholders and shared owners, and make sure that the polluter pays.

Leaseholders: Safety Remediation Costs

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Thursday 4th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant interests as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and as a member of Kirklees Council.

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate, and, in so doing, making many constructive proposals for the Government to consider in seeking a solution to the appalling situation people find themselves in. I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Stunell for the clarity of his analysis of the issues we are addressing, and Peter Apps of Inside Housing for his very helpful briefing to those of us contributing to the debate.

I make no apology for concentrating my comments on the cladding crisis. This debate is, at its heart, about people—people as leaseholders, shared owners and tenants. A very large number of people are affected. It is estimated that as many as one in 10 of all households in England has been drawn into this building safety crisis. The Government’s own figures estimate that 8,000 buildings over 18 metres, involving 460,000 households, are affected. For those in buildings between 11 and 18 metres, the figures are 34,000 buildings and 700,000 households. There are also buildings below 11 metres that have flammable cladding that need to be considered, as the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, has just said, especially if they are, for example, residential care homes. As my noble friend Lord Stunell said, this is not a niche issue that is wrecking the lives of just a few people in very high-rise blocks. This is adversely impacting the lives of at least 3 million of our fellow citizens.

Following the awful tragedy of Grenfell, the Government have put blanket expectations on buildings over 11 metres for the removal of flammable cladding and everything else that is combustible. The questions that follow that Government decision are: who is to pay for the remediation, and who is responsible?

Early estimates of the total cost for just removing and replacing the cladding were £16 billion. The spending review last week—cynically, in my view—included a restatement of the funding available, which, as we have heard from several noble Lords, is £3 billion from the taxpayer and a further £2 billion raised by a levy on developers over the next 10 years. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for his comment about there being a precedent, when dealing with the Airey homes, for the taxpayer contributing far more towards remediation, rather than this capped and inadequate £3 billion currently in place from the Government.

I remind noble Lords that that government contribution is only for the replacement of flammable cladding, and only for buildings over 18 metres. Worse follows because, as cladding is removed, so are building safety defects revealed, as we have heard—a big one being the lack of fire breaks. These, too, must be put right, but there is no government grant for these serious building errors.

Leaseholders, who do not own a single part of the building, are being expected to pay for the failings of the construction industry. Leaseholders should not be paying a penny piece towards putting right the absolute failures of developers, materials manufacturers and government regulation. That view has been supported by many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. Leaseholders are receiving bills for non-cladding work of over £100,000. As my noble friend Lord Stunell stated, Inside Housing has estimated that the majority of leaseholders have been billed for over £30,000. This is—I repeat—for putting right a building that belongs not to them but to the freeholder.

Even worse follows, because the fire risk has resulted in “waking watch” costs and enormous hikes in insurance. I have previously quoted in this House a leaseholder whose average service charge was £700 per quarter but which then jumped to an unaffordable £3,000 a quarter. For some, that alone has been enough to push them over the financial cliff edge: an elderly gentleman who I met at a campaign rally said to me, through tears, “I just can’t pay—what am I to do?”

The consequences for leaseholders are catastrophic. They have a flat that literally has no value, they have no recourse to effective legal action and they are being forced into totally unpalatable choices: bankruptcy, repossession or eviction, or putting their flat into an auction. This is so unjust. Leaseholders have done everything right and nothing wrong, and their lives are being wrecked by the inability of government to produce effective solutions. There are solutions that the Government should and must consider, so that leaseholders are not seen as collateral damage in this awful crisis.

As the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has explained, the “polluter pays” approach has much to recommend it. This well-developed proposal has also been supported by several other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, my noble friend Lord Stunell and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London. I too add my support to their plea for the Minister to respond positively to this proposal.

The Government should also consider a more risk-based assessment of flammable cladding and building defects. Will the Minister agree to provide information on the conclusions that the Government have reached on such risk assessments? Will he also tell the House whether alternatives to cladding remediation have been considered and assessed, and remedies sought, such as the ones that my noble friend Lady Brinton suggested? These are actions that the Government can, and should, take to put an end to the suffering of millions of our fellow citizens.

Those in shared ownership, for example, forfeit their equity if they are unable to pay hugely inflated service charges. Is that right and just, when none of it is their responsibility? Leaseholders have already been driven to the edge of despair. Some have already chosen bankruptcy, despite the consequences, simply to escape the mental torment of living under such constant pressure. Next April is the deadline for bills for remediation that cannot be paid and will, therefore, see many more driven to bankruptcy.

Leaseholders tell me that there are already institutions lining up to benefit from their misery, as they seek to buy up property, cheaply, vacated by leaseholders through bankruptcy or in other ways. That is simply not acceptable. Leaseholders, as I will constantly say, have done everything right and nothing wrong. They must not pay the price for others’ failures, and I for one will continue to speak up for them until the Government effectively address all their issues. I look forward to hearing full and constructive answers from the Minister to the many proposals suggested today.

Buildings: Cladding

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Pinnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure the removal of dangerous cladding from buildings identified as high-risk.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw attention to my relevant interests in the register.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

We have provided £5.1 billion to remediate cladding in high-rise residential buildings, targeting funding at buildings we know to be at greatest risk of fire spread.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

Despite the Minister trying to blind us again with statistics, the hard fact is that thousands of leaseholders are living in limbo, suffering anxiety and in despair. Some are even being held to ransom; they are being asked to sign a commitment to pay many tens of thousands of pounds for the remediation of building safety defects that are exposed when cladding is removed. No cladding work is done until they sign that bit of paper. Leaseholders are being held to ransom; they cannot move and they cannot get anything done. Surely the Minister will agree with me that this cannot be right. What is he going to do about it?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I mentioned only one statistic; I do not think that one statistic or one figure—£5.1 billion—is blinding anybody. I point to the progress: despite a pandemic, the ACM funding of some £600 million has seen around 16,500 homes being fully remediated. That is an increase of 4,700 since the end of last year. The new building safety fund, topped up so that the total remediation amounts to £5 billion, is estimated to cover around 65,000 homes in high-rise blocks. So there are many tens of thousands of leaseholders who are benefiting from government funding.

Public Services

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, given my local government interest, I know it is not how services are provided but if services can be provided. For example, social care—a service provided by both public and private organisations—requires an extra £2 billion a year. Does the Minister agree with the Conservative County Councils Network, which says that council tax will need to rise by 8% each year so that basic social care needs can be met?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, it is for every council to decide what level of council tax it needs to set. Obviously, there is a latitude to increase council tax by up to 2% to help support the additional social care costs, but the Government have set out their plan to increase funding to social care, as the noble Baroness knows.

Regulation of Property Agents Working Group

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Wednesday 20th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we recognise that having an overarching code of practice will be an important step in addressing these issues around discrimination. That is why we are looking forward to receiving the draft code compiled from the hard work done by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and others. We will come back in due course on how we take that forward.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, leaseholders in cladding-scandal-ridden flats have seen a meteoric rise in their service charges. Emily in Leeds has seen hers rise from £400 per year to nearly £3,000 per year. The Minister has said this afternoon that he is committed to leaseholder fairness. Regulation is urgently needed to save these leaseholders from bankruptcy. When—not if—will the Government introduce regulation?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, the Building Safety Bill is currently going through the other place. We strongly believe that all fees and charges should be justifiable, transparent and communicated effectively. By law, variable service charges, and pollution and administration charges, must all be reasonable, and, where costs relate to work or services, those must be of a reasonable standard. There are already significant legal protections in place.

Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualification (Dissolved Companies) Bill

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 19th October 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I draw the Committee’s attention to my entry in the register of interests, which includes my roles as vice-president of the Local Government Association and as a member of Kirklees Council. The Bill includes two elements, which the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, described as being “cobbled together”—I cannot but agree. The only connection that I could find was that they both relate to businesses. Clause 1 concerns business rates, and Clauses 2 and 3 address the “directors disqualification” part of the Bill title. I anticipated a rather dull afternoon discussing this, so I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, for changing my view of directors’ disqualification. It has been a lively debate, and I think that a lot of people will be reading Hansard as a consequence.

I want to start by talking about Clause 1, which is the part about non-domestic rates. Many businesses have had a very tough 18 months during which they have endeavoured to keep afloat. I accept that the Government have provided considerable financial support to businesses to mitigate the worst of the impacts of the Covid pandemic. Nevertheless, it is not surprising to me that many have tried any potential route that may provide financial relief. As we have heard, this has resulted in businesses applying to the Valuation Office Agency for what is called a check of their rateable value, the aim being to get a revaluation based on material change of conditions that has impacted on their business as a consequence of Covid restrictions and measures. At this point, I thank the House Library for a very helpful explanation to a non-professional of the measures in the Bill.

The purpose of the Bill is to manage this growing number of checks. The government argument is that businesses have been able to access government loans and some grants to tide them over the Covid period and that these are sufficient to address the trading difficulties resulting from lockdowns and restrictions imposed by the Government. The problem with this argument is that, undoubtedly, some businesses will have not been able to access these funds and the recourse taken by unusually large numbers of applying for MCCs is a warning sign that all is not well. I concur with the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, on this matter, particularly that the £1.5 billion fund that has been set aside by the Government for relief to compensate for these changes is almost certainly inadequate. The pleas that we have heard from the noble Earl and the noble Lord, as well as from the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, that we must see the detail of the fund before we progress this Bill are urgent. I hope that the Minister can give us some assurances that this will happen before Committee.

Clause 1 is retrospective and has a catch-all approach. The only circumstances that businesses can use to apply to the VOA will be physical changes to the property and special considerations in relation to mineral extractions and waste disposal firms. I accept that unless this legislation is passed, the business rates system will be undermined. That is its purpose, but lots of things are not adequate. I am sure that the Minister will have put them right by the time that we are in Committee.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

We have a really lively session; it is excellent.

As a measure that will deal with an immediate problem flowing from the very rare circumstances of a pandemic, we can but agree with it. However, I have a few questions for the Minister. Can he explain the financial impact of these changes on local government? About 25% of local government funding comes from business rates, so any change, however small, can have a considerable impact on really tight council budgets. It is important for those of us who are concerned about local government, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blower, said, to know exactly what the impact will be. When the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, introduced the Bill, he emphasised the importance of certainty of local government funding from business rates.

Can the Minister explain what estimations have been made of the impact of impending rises in interest rates on businesses that have accepted government loans during Covid? The implications for what might happen are obvious. Concerning the £1.5 billion relief fund, we need to know the details and what happens when the fund runs out, as I suspect it will. Also, we need answers to the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Blower, about administrative costs for local government in handling it.

Next, can the Minister say when much-needed fundamental changes to the business rate system will occur? We have been promised them for quite a long time now, and there is a lot of concern around local government and the business world that the current system is not answering the questions it needs to on town centre businesses on the one hand and digital businesses on the other, as the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, said. My concern is about warehouse and distribution centres, which do not pay their fair share by any means. That must be put right. Finally, will the Minister confirm whether a review of these measures is being planned within, say, a year of their introduction, so that we know what is going on?

I turn to Clauses 3 and 4, which relate to director disqualification. The last-minute changes to the timing of this debate have ensured that a number of people who would have spoken are not available. This includes my noble friend Lord Fox, who actually could have spoken because the Bill he has been speaking on has finished. I am sure he will be here for Committee but he has provided me with the following words, as this is definitely not my area of knowledge, let alone expertise.

He writes that these Benches welcome the intentions of the director disqualification part of the Bill. It is right that powers be created so that those who have fraudulently benefited from payments introduced to protect businesses during Covid are brought to book and the money recovered. Like other noble Lords, we received a briefing from R3, which represents insolvency practitioners; I am sure the Minister and the department also heard from it. Its members must file a report on the directors’ conduct with the Insolvency Service when acting as officeholders in a formal insolvency process, so its experience in this is welcome. Its concerns, like ours, focus on how the Bill will actually work and how it will help the wider creditor network.

First, we should be clear about one thing. The work of the Bill should not be at the expense of investigations into insolvent rather than dissolved companies. As R3 explains:

“R3 members already repeatedly express their frustration that not all their reports highlighting suspected serious legal breaches are acted on.”


Can the Minister assure the Committee that additional resources will be available to take on the extra activity created by the Bill, rather than it cannibalising an already stretched situation? Perhaps he can offer some crumb of comfort to the wider insolvency community by talking to his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer about this. Given that the Chancellor is embarking on a “non-spending review”, an activity such as this which brings money both back to government and into legitimate circulation will benefit the economy and pay back many times.

Our second point seeks detail as to how in practice this legislation will recover the money. What will be the mechanisms to recoup money from culpable directors? Do the Government intend to use tools such as compensation orders? This is significant because, unlike an insolvency process, where returns are made to the creditor body, the so far little-used compensation orders normally benefit only one creditor—in this case, we guess, HMRC.

Although the Government have indicated that they will expand the number of creditors who can benefit from a compensation order, this has not been made clear in the legislation, so we have to assume they will not. Where there are multiple creditors, an insolvency procedure has to date been more successful at recovering money owed to these creditors. How will the Bill protect all the other creditors as well as HMRC? I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Building Safety Defects: Costs

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Monday 18th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think it is as simple as that this was at the hands of failed regulation, although we recognise that there was regulatory system failure. That is why we are bringing forward the Building Safety Bill. We have put a substantial amount of money towards remediation costs, and we will do what we can to pursue those that have caused this crisis in the first place.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, a leaseholder in Leeds has received a remediation bill of £101,267—to be paid in the next 12 months. She has no access to the means to pay. What should Emily and thousands of other leaseholders do next, or are the Government accepting that thousands of bankruptcies will ensue?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to look at that specific case, because that sounds like an eye-watering sum of money. In the first instance, is full-scale remediation the answer? Has the freeholder looked at mitigation measures that may also achieve an acceptable way of improving things and lowering the fire safety risk? However, that does seem an extremely large sum of money, and I am happy to look into that case.

Leasehold: Building and Fire Safety

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, is not present, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has just said that he is considering a further levy on developers to enable leaseholders not to have to pay huge bills. One leaseholder I know has a bill of £200,000 landing on their doormat to pay now. Why are the Government so willing to protect developers’ profits while throwing leaseholders to the wolves?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not recognise that as a sensible position to hold. Admittedly, this is a situation that has built up over many decades and leaseholders face those eye-watering costs, but we need to recognise that in the 18 months since I have been a Minister, the amount of money put up by the Government, recognising that we needed to step up and in many cases support the leaseholders, has increased from £0.6 billion to £5.1 billion. That is a staggering sum of money. You could always do more, of course, and that is why we are trying to bring forward measures in the Building Safety Bill to make sure that this failure of regulation and of construction quality never happens again. That is what this Government are trying to do.

Grenfell Tower: Demolition

Baroness Pinnock Excerpts

Monday 6th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to clarify that there has been ongoing engagement not only with the bereaved and survivors but also with the community. I also want to put on record that there are no immediate safety concerns and that safety and maintenance are ongoing as part of a programme of works that will be completed only in the spring of 2022. Therefore, the coverage reporting that the school is in danger is absolutely wrong. At this stage, the tower is safe and is being kept safe until next spring.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the register of interests. As we all know, Grenfell Tower is the site of an appalling tragedy. The sight of it is a constant reminder of the building safety and fire safety crises that Grenfell exposed. Does the Minister agree that the demolition of Grenfell is also the removal of that potent symbol, which is a much-needed reminder of the absolute necessity that the Government solve the cladding and building safety crises that are destroying the lives of thousands of leaseholders? Does he also agree that demolition before the end of the Grenfell inquiry might remove some absolutely important information and facts that could lead to the resolution of this problem?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I have been very clear that the police have said that they do not require any evidence from the tower as part of their investigation. I am also aware that we need to engage very carefully on the future of the site. That is why we have asked an independent commission—the Memorial Commission— to look at options for the future. As I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, no decision has been taken at this point.