Identity Documents Bill
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee
I have Amendments 13 and 15 in this group, which also contains Amendments 14 and 16 in the name of my noble friend Lord Phillips. Amendment 13 is in my name and that of the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, who has asked me to say that he is sorry that he cannot be here this afternoon and that he very much supports the amendment, which in a way is a little embarrassing for me, as this is only a probing amendment, as indeed are all my amendments this afternoon.
Amendment 13 would insert the words “knowingly and” before “without reasonable excuse” in Clause 6(1). On the first day of Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, took us into some Latin terminology and I suppose that I shall, too, in asking whether mens rea—a guilty mind—is included in Clause 6(1). It is not obvious that it is covered by the phrase “without reasonable excuse” but, as the clause creates an offence, the “knowingly” aspect may well be imported in any event.
Amendment 15 would remove paragraphs (e) and (f) from Clause 7(1). It enables me to ask the Minister whether offences already exist relating to the misuse of driving licences. It struck me as odd to think that such offences came into effect only with the 2006 Act, so I would be interested to hear why it is necessary to refer to them at this point. I beg to move.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, the other two amendments in this group, Amendments 14 and 16, are in my name. I reiterate what my noble friend said about the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, who has put his name to both my amendments.
The purpose of Amendment 14 is to get on record—this may help those who have to interpret the statute—an explanation of the difference between Clause 6(1)(a), which my amendment would delete, and Clause 4(1)(a). If the Minister could explain the intended difference between the offences laid out in those two paragraphs, that would be extremely helpful, as they are close in wording, albeit with different conditions. Amendment 14 is truly a probing amendment.
Amendment 16 relates to Clause 8, which is headed, “Meaning of ‘personal information’”. The phrase “personal information” is used in Clauses 4 and 5. My amendment seeks to clarify paragraph (l) of Clause 8(1). I ask the Committee to humour my error in framing the amendment. Its first word, “or”, is redundant and my amendment should therefore read,
“in relation to any identity documents”.
The paragraph, as it stands, refers only to “documents”, not “identity documents”, which my amendment does. The term “identity document” is defined in Clause 7, but I am concerned that the paragraph could refer to, for example, a rating return, a television licence or any one of many other documents which identify the person to whom they relate and which contain numbers allocated to person A. I should be grateful if the Minister could say whether I am right or wrong in seeking to confine the personal information defined in paragraph (l) to that which relates only to identity documents, as defined in Clause 7.
Baroness Hamwee
I am not sure that I have worked out which part of the Minister’s answer related to my amendments. It all seemed to be addressed to my noble friend. I am not sure that the Minister dealt with Amendments 13 and 15. I could of course bring them back.
Baroness Neville-Jones
I apologise. The noble Baroness is absolutely right: I failed to deal with the issue. I am concerned that the effect of Amendment 13 is to shift the burden of proof. The prosecution in these circumstances would have to prove a couple of elements. It would have to prove, first, that the defendant knew that they were in possession and, secondly, that they had no reasonable excuse so to be. In Clause 4, which covers the possession of false identity documents with improper intention, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. It must prove improper intention. I hope that that clarifies the difference between what is there at the moment and what I understand to be the effect of the change that would be made by the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
In other words, one can commit an offence under Clause 6 without knowing that one is doing so. I do not mean not knowing about the law; it is not an excuse not to know what the law provides. In this case, do you not need to know, for instance, that an identity document in your possession is false or has been improperly obtained?
Baroness Hamwee
I think that I am grateful for that. I do not know whether there has been an answer on my Amendment 15. I had given notice that these were probing amendments and of what was behind them. My point was simply that it was interesting that offences had to be created in this way. I would have thought that there must be offences attached to the holding of driving licences quite separately from this.
Baroness Neville-Jones
It is not established that that is the case but I think that it is. We do not believe that the Act to which the noble Baroness refers covers driving licences. We would have to check this and provide a written answer. I suggest that we provide the noble Baroness with a more detailed answer on this between now and Report. To speed through this legislation, and in light of the fact that we will be conducting this review, I hope that noble Lords will agree not to press their amendments.
Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, Amendment 17 is grouped with Amendment 18. Again, these are probing amendments and I hope that my questions will not cause too many anxieties. I know that there is an answer to the first one, which is to ask the Minister to explain the desirability of including a qualifying reference agency as one of the bodies in Clause 10(3). I have heard the reason informally but I think that it should be on the record.
Amendment 18 deals with the provision which allows the Secretary of State to retain information—in other words, not to have to comply with subsections (8) and (9) where he thinks that it is desirable to prevent or detect crime, or apprehend or prosecute offenders. Again, I should be grateful to hear a little more about, and to get on the record, the Government’s thinking on this.
It is clear from the debates in the House, particularly before the last election, that there is growing concern about provisions which allow the Secretary of State to take this sort of executive action, which one might think would require either an order or some judicial input. In debates in which I have taken part with regard to RIPA and parallel matters, noble Lords have suggested that magistrates should play a role because they can always grant applications when there is an urgency or a particular necessity, and that would provide some control over the Executive in a way that certainly colleagues across all sides of the House have thought would be proper in those situations. It seems that there should be justification for Clause 10. I beg to move.
Baroness Neville-Jones
My Lords, during the passage of the Bill in another place, the Government introduced an amended Clause 10, adding significant safeguards, and I think that it is entirely right to demand such safeguards. We specified in the Bill that data collected have to be destroyed within 28 days following the issuing of a passport unless—and this is obviously the whole point—they are retained to prevent, detect or investigate crime or prosecute offenders. My understanding is that the amendment would remove that provision, but I should like to put to the noble Baroness that it has to be recognised that an agency which is responsible for passports and civil registration should be in a position to retain information that is relevant to assisting in the pursuit of suspected or actual criminals.
I probed this issue myself to establish what the criterion for retention would be, to which I got the answer that it would indeed be “reasonable suspicion” for as long as was necessary in determining whether the suspicion would lead to a prosecution. Therefore, such retention is for a strictly limited time and for a strictly limited purpose. This has been put into the Bill so that the matter is quite obvious, and I hope that it removes all doubt about the extremely limited circumstances in which the Identity and Passport Service would be allowed to retain information. I suggest that this is really a safeguard and not a power.
The other point raised by the noble Baroness is the resort to credit reference agencies. In the process of issuing a passport, it is very important to be absolutely certain about the claims being made by the applicant. The IPS makes use of a credit reference agency because it provides the most up-to-date information on addresses and is able to provide a relevant historical perspective which is particularly useful during interviews. In the course of one’s application, one gives one’s assent to this being done. It is a part of ensuring that a British passport is a reliable document that meets the highest standards. It is a very important part of the verification process. The information is strictly limited and must be relevant to the application. It would be a bad idea to remove the ability of the IPS to maintain a high level of verification by excluding a resort to a verification process conducted by an agency which itself maintains high standards and which has become important to verification. External credit reference agencies can add to the range of agencies able to provide a high degree of security and verification in considering applications for passports. I hope that, on this basis, the noble Baroness will be willing to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
I am grateful for that answer. I recognise that Clause 10 is a recent addition to the Bill. I think that it was added without any debate in the Commons and so has not been looked at in detail previously. I guess that it indicates how old-fashioned I am that I feel slightly uncomfortable in thinking that a credit reference agency is more up to date and more accurate than a number of government departments.
Where is the accountability in subsection (10)? How can the public know how and when the power is being exercised? The provision seems to be entirely private in the way that it is drawn.
Baroness Neville-Jones
The noble Baroness asks a perfectly reasonable question to which I shall try to get her an answer. I share her feeling that one must have accountability and that one must be certain that, at the end of the process of determining whether there is prosecutable evidence, information is destroyed. Both these things need verification.
There are two government changes to Clause 10. The first inserts a time limit of 28 days and the second defines that the information used must be strictly relevant. It is all subject to the terms of data protection legislation. While we could not be expected to inform a suspect that information about them was being held, one can rely on the fact that use of the data and all the provisions governing their retention will be subject to the terms of the data protection legislation. So they are not exempt; you cannot just do your own thing under this legislation.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Can I respond to that, as we are in Committee? The noble Lord raises an important point. I have no objection whatever to the general principle behind Clause 10, which seems entirely sensible and in the public interest. It is simply a matter of ensuring that there is due process and accountability.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I wondered whether to table an amendment probing paragraph (i), but since the provision would require an order, I thought that that was the inbuilt protection which subsection (10) seems not to have.
Baroness Neville-Jones
My Lords, several questions have been raised. It is indeed the case that the contract with Experian was inserted in this Bill. We are transposing it, as it was negotiated by the previous Government. I do not think that it is contrary at all to the public interest, as it is a very reputable agency and, without doubt, it provides up-to-date and accurate information in a way that financial credit reference agencies are liable to have that information, which may be less up to date in departments of government or other organisations.
Other points were raised about the power of the Secretary of State or,
“any other person specified for the purposes of this section by an order made by the Secretary of State”.
That should be related to the question of how such orders can be made, under Clause 11, of which subsection (3) states that it has to be by affirmative order. So there would indeed be opportunity for debate. I do not think that this power could conceivably be exercised on an arbitrary or unaccountable basis.
Baroness Hamwee
Will it be thought necessary or helpful if we find that a new organisation is holding information about citizens? I hope that we do not extend that category by much, if by anything at all.
Baroness Neville-Jones
I will endeavour to answer those two points. As regards the question posed by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, the distinction depends on the individual application and on the ability of the Identity and Passport Service to determine which source of information is best suited to the application. This is therefore permissive, rather than demanding that every single source should be applied to and used.
As regards the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, on judicial input, I think that what we are saying here is that a requirement to attend a magistrates’ court on every occasion when a person working for the IPS has a suspicion that there is a problem is impractical. We need to be able to ensure that there is an operational capability to deal with suspected offenders. The provision as it stands replicates the power and ability that exist in the Data Protection Act, which also provides safeguards.
Baroness Hamwee
I think that it was my question, so I obviously I should go away and read the Data Protection Act. I have lost my bet because I thought that the debate would be over in about three minutes, but it has taken more than 30 minutes. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Intellectual Assets: Crime
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Neville-Jones
My Lords, of course many sorts of crime are involved. The original Question was clearly about espionage but there is also theft, to which the noble Lord referred—that is, crime of a more straightforward kind—and both those aspects of our intellectual underpinning in this country need to be addressed. I can give the assurance that there will be no change in the status of SOCA, which will remain central—and I mean central—to crime-fighting in this country, so there will be no diminution in our efforts on that front. As those on the Benches opposite may know, we will produce a strategy for cybercrime by the end of the year. Therefore, I can give that assurance, and we agree with those on the Benches opposite that this is a matter of high national importance.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, will the Minister tell the House of any work that is being undertaken internationally since it seems that work with other countries should be central to management of the ware?
Baroness Neville-Jones
Yes, I can give several instances but two in particular. First, the UK is developing a vision for our handling of cyber issues in the future which we will share with close allies. Secondly, noble Lords may have observed that it was announced today that we and the Government of France are seeking to co-operate on cyber matters. I believe, as the noble Baroness says, that we will not succeed in producing a secure cyberrealm in the absence of international co-operation.
Terrorism: Aviation Security
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Neville-Jones
The noble Lord asks some pertinent and, I have to say, extremely difficult questions. My honest answer to his first question must be that we do not know the answer. This explosive is extremely difficult to detect. Technologies are known for detecting PETN and one consideration that we will have to take advice on is whether we should extend PETN testing to cargo going on board aircraft—most particularly passenger aircraft, but also other aircraft. We have to do this in a way that is consistent with assuring the public that they can travel safely, while not crippling the country’s economy and international commerce. Therefore, an international effort will be needed and we shall talk not only to other operators but to those who may be able to help us technologically. Part of the Transport Secretary’s review will consist of talking to the companies. Many of them are well advanced in increasing—and we will be increasing—the screening processes, including capabilities that are not necessarily at the moment distributed as a matter of course.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, in the wider context to which both Front Benches referred, can the Minister confirm that control orders are simply not relevant to this situation and that, had they been in place, they would not have prevented it? Would she also like to comment on the remarks made by Michael O’Leary of Ryanair, who talked today about “ludicrous” airport security? He said that,
“we have another … lurch by the securicrats into making travel even more uncomfortable and an even more tedious ordeal for the public”.
I say this not as a cheap shot—although one might say that, if anyone knows about that, he would—but because I think that these are serious points, which should be responded to.
Baroness Neville-Jones
My Lords, I do not think that we are discussing the control orders today. As for what Mr O’Leary of Ryanair said, he does perhaps have extraordinary timing. The view that the Government take is that airport security is extraordinarily important and we cannot let our guard down. That does not mean, of course, that there is never any room for improvement, for review or for looking at those things that could constitute an assurance of greater security. My right honourable friend the Transport Secretary said the other day that he intended to look at whether procedures could be improved and, in particular, whether we could proceed to some extent by way of audit rather than by laying the emphasis on the input side and insisting on lots of layers of security. However, we will wish to proceed extremely cautiously, in the light of events, in lowering or in any way interfering with the current security precautions, which I think give the travelling public a measure of assurance about the seriousness with which these issues are taken by the Government.
Identity Documents Bill
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Hamwee
It is important to mention that the noble Lord has just used the word “convenient”. I am sure that he would like to confirm to the Grand Committee that he is not suggesting that there would be any detriment to security by losing this scheme.
Lord Bach
I think that there might be some advantages for security in this scheme, and I would like to know the Government’s view on that. From the exchanges I have been reading from, it seems that there may well have been some advantages so far as security is concerned. Indeed, I am reminded that Mr Fazackerley was asked a question by the honourable David Simpson:
“On a point of clarification, Mr Green asked Mike—
I presume that is Mr Fazackerley. I do not think that we would call an expert witness by their Christian name in this House, but perhaps I am being old-fashioned—
“a question about the fact that it takes eight to 12 weeks to carry out the security side of the process, but if a card is lost or misplaced, it can be replaced within 24 hours. Did you say that no further security checks were carried out?”.
Mr Fazackerley answered by saying:
“At that point. The benefit that we got from the system was that you were absolutely sure that the person who was standing in the pass office was the right person”. —[Official Report, Commons Public Bill Committee, 29/6/10; col. 28.]
Whether what he said about the issue goes to the question of security or not is a matter for the Committee to decide.
Lord Bach
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate: my noble friend Lord Brett, with his expert knowledge of systems at airports; the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, for the points that he made; and, of course, the Minister, for her response. This proposal does not depend on whether it, in the end, improves airport security or not. We certainly think that it cannot do any harm, to put it at its mildest, and probably has some positive effects. Obviously, on its own, an ID card system of this kind is nowhere near enough; of course there has to be continued checking, as the noble Baroness said in her response. We accept all that. I am not sure that her point about a philosophical difference between the two sides carries very much water. We are arguing that you can put security on one side, if you want, for the moment; we are talking about an attempt to save hard-pressed businesses costs and a degree of effort that they do not otherwise have to use. This is a very important industry for this country, and if anything can help to save legitimate costs, expenditure and time, I would argue that it is the duty of government to look carefully at it.
What is Amendment 5 intended to do? It states that the trial should continue for a longer period and that, at the end of it, the Secretary of State shall lay before both Houses of Parliament a report on,
“the outcome of the trial use of ID cards for airside workers”,
and,
“the measures the Secretary of State proposes to implement arising from it”.
It obviously does not find favour with the Government, but I would be interested to know what they intend to do with the information that has been gleaned from the six months of the trial. As the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, said, no doubt there were some benefits to be gained and it would be useful for the future to know what they might be.
I find it difficult to understand how that could possibly cost £100,000, bearing in mind that the cards have already been given out free. What would be the costs of carrying on the trial? I find that hard to understand.
Baroness Hamwee
As the noble Lord said, there may be lessons to be learnt, and I, too, should be interested to know them. He described what the new clause does. I think that I am right to say that, implicitly, it requires the continuance of the register until the end of the process described here. It seems to me that that must follow. The noble Lord has not referred to it, but the two go so closely hand in hand that I assume that that is the case. Perhaps he could confirm that or correct me.
Lord Bach
I am not sure whether the register would have to continue or not. The data would continue to be collected and we would see at the end of the period whether the trial had made life easier and more secure for those who have to run our airports. I take the noble Baroness's point; I know that it is an essential part of the Government's case that the register should be closed at the earliest possible moment. I suggest that the effect of having an identity card as passport might be to make it possible to get the information that would be of assistance.
I see that the Government are not attracted by the wording of the amendment. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for her response, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
The part of the noble Baroness’s argument that I found conclusive was that this clause reproduces existing offences, so I relaxed after that. But my noble friend has been diligent in looking back at the 2006 Act and, indeed, as he says, it is different. If the Government are concerned—I support them entirely in this—not to undermine what has been established through case law, then I think that the Committee would be interested to learn the reasons for the changes. This clause is noticeably shorter than the section in the 2006 Act. If there has been a well-intentioned effort to compress it, quite apart from the confusion that I too have been caused, there are dangers inherent in changing the language, in however minute a fashion.
The Earl of Erroll
I thought we had leapt ahead of ourselves for a moment; it was great. I also put my name down to Amendment 19 because it is always important to have independent scrutiny. It makes people feel much happier and much safer. I do not see that in this case it needs to be very expensive; you do not need a huge office, a huge outside body or anything like that. Public confidence can otherwise be destroyed. Sometimes things go wrong, so it feels much happier having external independent scrutiny. We forget that at our peril.
Having someone reporting up the same chain of command to the same boss is never quite the same as getting a report straight out to Parliament. On something like this, which potentially involves civil liberties and citizens’ rights, it is very important to have a direct report to Parliament, which is outside the normal chain of command, just in case. It is not that I mistrust any of the people in the system; they are trying to do a good job under difficult circumstances, particularly as the politics of it are shifting and changing on a monthly basis. There is no bad will on my part. Rather, we should always do this as a matter of principle, and it is dangerous to start not doing it.
Something the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, read out reminded me of the phrase in RIPA,
“for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime”.
That was the general-purpose provision that was slotted into RIPA. We were told that the Act would apply only to serious and organised crime but it ended up with local councils using it for other things. At that point, everyone realised that we had a political problem on our hands because uses can change. There could be similar issues buried within the Bill that I remember noticing when I first went through it but then forgot about.
The Earl of Erroll
Absolutely. It is important to have an external view of these things that will report directly to Parliament, because it is our duty to protect the rights of citizens against the Executive.
Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules (Cm 7944)
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Hunt, I enjoyed last Thursday’s debate in this House. In addition to the points of detail that were raised in the debate, I particularly enjoyed the number of decent, humane contributions that enlightened the public debate in the UK on this most sensitive of issues. For far too long, far too many have displayed a willingness to direct their thinking and comment on migration in a way that reinforces fear and intolerance, rather than challenges it. When confronted with difficult issues that may risk popular opinion, politicians and legislators are faced with a choice. On an issue as sensitive as this, which goes to the core of how individuals relate to each other, the choice that we make is particularly important.
On such sensitive issues, our starting point has to be what is right. Discussion on how to win public support for a position should follow decisions on what is best for the country. Unfortunately, on migration, too much decision-making follows the reverse course, with policy based on what will appeal, what will most easily win votes and what will be politically acceptable within political parties. As a result, policy decisions damage Britain and are regularly unsustainable. Not only do I believe that hostility to cultural diversity is morally wrong and unnecessarily intolerant, I am also convinced that culturally diverse societies are more likely to be entrepreneurial, more likely to succeed and more likely to grow and prosper in the modern world. The evidence tells us that, increasingly, they do.
The Government’s approach of an arbitrary cap, cloaked in, frankly, the language of intolerance, reinforces and entrenches the problems in this debate. It contradicts the Prime Minister’s admirable signal of “open for business”, since “not open for talent and hard work” is a poor sub-heading for that slogan. It views new people as a burden, rather than an asset. It legitimises intolerance and ignores the innovative and positive approach to the regionalisation of immigration policy, as advocated by the Liberal Democrats before the last general election. Despite dire warnings, we made a success of such a policy in Scotland. It would be a tragedy if it was never repeated and its positive lessons lost.
In 2002 I began a positive campaign for in-migration of fresh talent to help reverse Scotland’s history of emigration and resultant depopulation. Population decline was the greatest threat to our future prosperity. We set about attracting people to reverse that decline. For five years Scotland’s population has risen. Our society is more diverse and we benefit from the work rate, talents and enterprise that the new people have brought to our shores. The fresh talent visa scheme, the welcoming of new people into communities, the celebration of diversity by leaders and the challenging of prejudice have left us stronger, more successful, just as stable and with fewer racial tensions than we had a decade ago. Therefore, I hope that the new Government do not feel obliged to stick to a rigid and damaging approach, that my party in opposition regains its confidence on this issue and that the Liberal Democrats do not forget in government what they advocated just six months ago in opposition.
If all parties—and I mean all—were to resolve that Britain is best when we are open, tolerant, inclusive and, yes, diverse, we would be a far richer society in the years to come.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, mention has been made of last Thursday’s debate. In opening it, the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, referred to a recent report by the Economic Affairs Committee of this House which concluded that any immigration policy should have at its core the principle that existing UK residents should be better off as a result. It seems to me that the term “better off” is capable of very wide interpretation, certainly culturally as well as economically and long term as well as short term.
I find it hard to read the changes regarding language as an integration measure as integration is about far more than language. I am no linguist but I know from my own experience that being in a country whose language I do not know is the best way to learn that language. I cannot help commenting on the loss of support two or three years ago for the teaching of English as a second language.
It is a paradox that the changes discriminate against British citizens, as distinct from EEA nationals, whose overseas spouses wish to join them. However, I do not want to go down the route of criticising the statement but rather to ask questions of the Minister—she will have anticipated most of them—because I hope to be helped to support the measure. I do not ask my questions in any particular order. It has been suggested that temporary visas might be awarded to spouses to enable them to come to the UK to learn the language once they are here. I hope that the Minister will comment on that. I should be glad if she could clarify the test. With teachers teaching to an exam—if I can put it that way—to ensure that their pupils get through it rather than learn the subject, will she comment on how the tests and the teaching will be carried out? Can she tell us anything about the extent of discretion that will be given to Border Agency staff, or is the matter to be dealt with just at testing centres and you either pass or fail? Will there be enough centres in the feeder countries? Where are they? What about access for rural applicants? Is there a sufficient number of teaching centres? Teaching will be expensive. Is it proposed to charge fees for the tests? I hope not.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, and my noble friend mentioned the term “exceptional compassionate circumstances”. Those who fall within that term are by definition a small minority. It seems to me that this will mean that the proportionality test in Article 8 will not be met. Will the Minister comment on that? As regards the cap, the impact assessment says that the UK wishes to attract the “brightest and the best”. We do, but as an aside I should say that a country cannot exist just with an elite. What evidence is there about the impact of the interim cap, which has now been in place for a little while? What analysis or representations have been made regarding any disproportionate impact on particular professions and sectors? The quality impact assessment identifies no adverse consequences. That is a very positive statement, but have the Government identified any possible adverse consequences for equality that we should be looking out for? How will any disproportionate impact on a particular nationality be managed by the Government? We know that India and Pakistan are the most extensive users of tier 1, and they are key to this country’s international relations.
What general principles do the Government use to decide what is in the rules and what is in guidance? Can the noble Baroness comment on any impact on families that arises from this. I recall raising this matter with her soon after the election, because I had been asked to do so, and she said that we are not an “inhumane” Government. That is something which I would like to hold on to.
In the debate on Thursday, I gave a clear indication of my attitude—if noble Lords want to say “bias”, that is fair enough. The sectors that were mentioned included the academic, the scientific, the performing arts and other areas that have been mentioned this evening. They were generally considered to be hugely important contributors to the UK’s wealth and specifically to have considerable impact in a number of narrow discrete examples. Mention was made of the underlying principles. The speech which we have just heard by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, is one that we should have available to refer to in the future. I valued his contribution.
We debated the UK’s reputation and the importance of making and keeping friends internationally, as well as the economic benefits and the tax take that successful immigrants generate. I do not want to repeat the speech that I made, although there is a great temptation to plagiarise others, but I will say again that the use of Immigration Rules should be a facilitator not a constraint. I realise that in the context of the cap they should not be in any sense a blunt instrument.
My most important question to the Minister is to ask for her assurance that the Government are still listening and consulting informally on the permanent cap. There have been vociferous and anxious comments about the interim cap, and I hope she can assure us that these, including the debates in Parliament, will feed into decisions down the track. Will Parliament have an opportunity—engineered and ensured by the Government—to consider the permanent arrangements?
The Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, “regrets”. I have to say that what I and, I am sure, others regret more is that under the previous Government we had so little opportunity, except when my noble friend Lord Avebury ensured it, to discuss these issues. I was glad to hear some of the things that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said today, but the reaction to the previous Government’s attitude to immigration was that it was not notably consultative.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, I hope that I am not unduly suspicious, but I rather think there is something in the opposition Motion that is not entirely to do with the cap, but tries to embarrass the coalition. Perhaps I am just a Welshman who should not be thinking that way, but I am afraid that that might be the case.
I look back at the record of the previous Government and I see that new immigration Acts were introduced in 1997, 2002, 2004 and 2006. Another consolidated Bill was on the way and was mooted to contain more than 800 clauses. We never came to it because the general election beat us to it. Each Act was harsher and less liberal than the one before it.
I know from personal experience how we tried to amend the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Bill in 2004—especially Clause 9, which sought to make failed asylum seekers absolutely destitute by withdrawing all their benefits and facilities. We on the Liberal Democrat Benches tried to get rid of that clause, but we failed. The Labour Government would not give way. That was the case throughout the previous Parliament.
We remember the campaign to end the detention of children for immigration purposes, but the Labour Government would not budge. It took the new coalition to take the initiative there. I am afraid that only one voice supported the continuation of detention—a highly regarded former Labour Minister. When the 2006 Bill was going through the House, I tried to get the Government to provide information packs for migrants to inform them of the challenges and concerns they might have on reaching the United Kingdom. The Labour Government refused to provide the packs. I also questioned the delays in the provision of visas for children's choirs from Kampala. There was delay after delay until finally, two days before they were due to leave, the visas came through.
Immigration: Jimmy Mubenga
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Neville-Jones
My Lords, my belief is that, given the seriousness of this issue, the recommendations that were made have indeed been implemented. In the light of what has happened, we need to go through those recommendations as well as those of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, to see whether there are things that we can do better or in addition. We will look seriously at the outcome of the investigations that are taking place. We do not wish to see this happen again.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, will the Minister assure the House that regard is being had not only to training but also to including the correct requirements in the commissioning of private organisations so that regard is had to this matter at the highest level initially? What training and instructions are there with regard to other passengers who may be forced to witness such an unhappy occurrence? This may be a second-order matter, but the incident must have been extraordinarily distressing for the other passengers on the flight.
Baroness Neville-Jones
The noble Baroness’s last point is right, although I hope that we do not get to the point of having to train passengers to witness unfortunate events. On her point about accreditation and the requirements laid down for the private sector escort companies, this issue is taken seriously. Requirements are laid down and such companies receive training, which is compulsorily renewed. We have an accreditation system and companies and individuals do indeed lose their accreditation. We are trying to inject a great deal of discipline into this system.
Identity Documents Bill
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, shortly before the general election I was asked at a meeting what would be the first new Bill that I would introduce if I had the opportunity to do so. I said that we had far too much legislation already and that I would be looking at making repeals before I would look at introducing new laws. I was on a panel with a Member of Parliament who had been a Home Secretary and he agreed with that analysis. The Identity Cards Act 2006 was not in the “unnecessary” column; it was in the column marked “plain wrong”. I am therefore delighted to welcome this Bill and to note the significance of the fact that the upholding of civil liberties and the right to privacy are being given parliamentary time so early in this Parliament.
Even those who were initially attracted by the, “I’ve done nothing wrong, so I have nothing to fear” argument were, in increasing numbers, losing faith in the effectiveness of ID cards. The events of 9/11 and the Madrid train bombings answered the assertion that ID cards would help in dealing with terrorism. As for organised crime, identity fraud—which the noble Lord, Lord Bach, mentioned—is committed mostly online, where identity cards are irrelevant. As for the potential convenience for young people in proving their age, all I can say is, “some nut, some sledgehammer”.
Then, of course, we have heard about the cost. The waste of money is a scandal. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, has mentioned refunds. I agree that there is an issue regarding the payments made by individuals. However, it is completely disproportionate to suggest that the charges that have been paid by individuals are a greater issue than the cost of the scheme so far, and its potential cost were it to be retained.
I could have spent 15 minutes reading into the record the quotes that I found in a very quick internet search. Instead, I will share a couple. These expressions of concern by citizens—I use the term deliberately—very effectively make the point. The first is:
“Why should I have to validate my very existence by signing up for this National Identity Register/ID cards? The potential of this data to be abused/lost/stolen is almost a certainty never mind the fact you have to pay for the privilege. It’s crazy that law-abiding people will be punished for not having one or not keeping their details up to date and it provides no extra benefit whatsoever. Saying it will counteract terrorism is an absolute delusion too”.
The second comment that I will share is as follows:
“ID cards will do nothing effective to reduce terrorism or crime, indeed criminal and terrorist organisations with the resources will probably find ways around them anyway. These cards do however extend the control and interference of the state by another step. This government in particular is investing heavily in building a very good infrastructure for oppression. I will not sign up for these cards, nor carry one. The scheme should be scrapped without compensation to the organisations involved and any money saved moved into worthwhile parts of the budget, perhaps even to help reduce the causes of crime by improving education and youth services”.
Those comments go to the heart of the matter. I do not need to spell out the concerns that we all have about the vulnerability of the personal data to which they refer. I look forward to debating in Committee amendments to explore points from the Joint Committee on Human Rights about the offences that are being re-enacted, and about information sharing in connection with the issue of passports. The JCHR picked up, among other things, on comments made by the Information Commissioner’s Office. I will quote from the Hansard report of the written evidence given to the Public Bill Committee:
“There should be no room for ambiguity over the information which will be destroyed”.
That is a matter that we will come back to.
Mention has already been made of biometric immigration documents, and the need for better language than the divisive “ID cards for foreign nationals”. I appreciate that residence permits are required for a fair system of border control. I hope that the Minister will comment either now or when we come to these points in Committee, as I am sure we will, on who has access to personal information held by the National Biometric Identity Service; how long the information will be retained; whether it will be retained after the individual has left the UK, and if so, why; and whether the UK goes further than is required by European law.
I look forward to passing the Bill after the proper scrutiny to which I have referred, and to the further protection of civil liberties that will no doubt be coming to us—to rebalancing, if I may use a good new Labour term. We can still learn lessons. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, said that it was a shame that we were scrapping the schemes because there were lessons to be learned. I hope that we can learn them in any event.
The ID register is an authoritarian strand of government that I deplore. I see no justification for the scheme other than that “it was invented here, but here is now there”. I do not want to be unnecessarily divisive, because all of us who value our liberties and who rely on a common-sense approach to good government should welcome the Bill—and I believe that they do, because I recognise that those views are held on all sides of the House.
Cyberattacks: EU Committee Report
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for introducing this debate. I am glad that there are people who understand all this and can speak the language and handle the acronyms. I use that thought to evade the rule that there should be only one formal thanks to maiden speakers before the winders. I am very glad that we have a “big beast” who was able to get his head around the issues sufficiently to start a new area of work. I am not sure that I should refer to the Minister as a big beast other than intellectually and, to be even-handed, as someone who also has a track record in security.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, and I briefly discussed the report the other day. Although his speech did not tend in this direction, we agreed at the time that this amounted to something very serious and that something should be done. I tend to see that thought in the report, where we read:
“There was consensus among our witnesses that this was a legitimate area for the EU to be concerned about, and that it had some role to play, but there was no unanimity as to what that role should be”.
I suppose that is formal speak for the same thought.
This is a report about the EU but I entirely take the point made in the speeches we have heard so far that this is a global issue. I was not surprised to read that American witnesses were encouraging about the role of the EU as distinct from national roles. This is a global issue. The phrase “asymmetrical development” is a very polite term for describing the problem of the lowest common denominator.
This is not just about the EU and it is not just about government. As the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, it concerns every sector from contractors to government departments and the services provided by the private sector. We heard about Northgate but utilities could be affected—the water services, to take one—and traffic lights. The list is very long indeed and it does not take a lot of imagination to get beyond the jargon and think about the real problems that a cyberattack could cause.
I very much agree with the committee that it is for the public sector to take the initiative and offer a real say to experienced internet entrepreneurs in how public/private partnerships are best developed and not leave it to the private sector to come forward with ideas.
While I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, that this is not about cybercrime, like the noble Lord, Lord Harris, I will be interested to hear from the Minister about the role of the new National Crime Agency. Behind technology of any sort are people. That comes through very clearly in the committee’s comments on ENISA. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, referred to juvenile delinquents. I sometimes wonder whether states should thank innocent or naive hackers for showing them where problems and weaknesses arise.
The other day I heard a tale from Bletchley Park about a code—not Enigma—which was cracked because the transmitter of a message in code realised that he had made a mistake and transmitted a second message correcting it. That gave those at Bletchley the material to be able to crack the code. It is individuals who can, in what might appear to be small ways, undermine the security of systems.
I, too, am interested in resilience to cyberattacks, the work that is going on and that which can be undertaken in this area—that must be harder to tackle at an international level than at a national or local level—to anticipate technological aspects and human reactions in dealing with cyberattacks. I know that I am not the only person in the Chamber who has heard about what went on immediately following the 7 July bombings. One of the problems of which we became aware pretty quickly was people’s tendency to use mobile phones and the effect that had on the mobile phone networks. It is a very human reaction to pick up a phone to find out whether one’s family is safe. I wonder whether any thought has been given to involving the media in resilience exercises. I take this lesson also from 7/7: the media have a very important role as people tend to turn on their televisions and radios.
Finally, as result of work that I and other Members of the London Assembly did following those July bombings, I keep in mind the words of the then managing director of London Underground. He said that the big lesson for us was:
“Invest in your staff, rely on them. Invest in technology, but do not rely on it”.
Children: Trafficking
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Neville-Jones
My Lords, the functions of CEOP will certainly remain within the new structure for the National Crime Agency. There is no intention to abolish those functions. As to the budget figure, obviously I cannot give an assurance of that kind until we know the outcome of the CSR review. But I note the point that has been made.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, we are aware of work going on to anticipate problems around the Olympics as regards trafficked women. Is this a problem that has been identified as regards trafficked children as well? If so, are steps being taken to address it during the two sets of Games?
Baroness Neville-Jones
My noble friend is right to say that this is potentially a vulnerable point. We have the Olympics particularly in mind and will be looking to see what measures are necessary.
EU: European Investigation Order
Baroness Hamwee Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Neville-Jones
The noble Lord is entirely mistaken. This is mutual legal assistance between national legal regimes.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is one of a number of steps that will make it more difficult for people to forum-shop for the legal jurisdictions that best suit them?
Baroness Neville-Jones
It is certainly the case that mutual legal assistance regularises the likelihood of trials taking place in the proper place.