Lords Chamber

Tuesday 2nd September 2025

(began 5 hours, 22 minutes ago)

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11:07
11:08
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Conservative)
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attend a close family members wedding. My Lords, the day looks as though it will be devoted to elective home education, and ICOM owing to my defenestration and crumbling health, I am in a position to say, since I shall be disengaging from this arena after 15 years in it, that I have found a home education community a total delight to work with, a collection of extraordinary people, and I find it very easy to understand how the government doesn't find it easy to work with.

And I hope in the course of this bill, we will help lay the foundations for a good, strong relationship. And I would like to thank very much the Minister and her civil servants for all the time and effort that they have taken over the recess to work through the amendments in her section and how we can gain a better understanding of them and share that with the home education community. I look forward to the continuance of that progress through the report.

My approach today will be very concise where I can be. And await what minister has to say about individual amendments and to respond to that. There is so much that has passed between us and civil servants that, to rehearse my amendments as though they hadn't happened would seem to be futile. A large number of the amendments arrived from uncertainty over the government's intentions, so having something clear and unequivocal from the Minister that supports the rights and responsibilities of home educators which celebrates the contribution that they make to the state and they save the state to great deal of money, and to the education of their children.

And requires local authorities to be supportive. The role is absolutely crucial here. It is clear that the role they play is vitally important. There are many instances where people are set out on home educating for the right reason, and looking after the children in those circumstances is hugely important. But if the relationship between local authorities and home educators is to work, it must be based on trust and mutual appreciation. And if you can get back to work as local authorities do, you get strong information flow into local authorities as to what is happening.

You get really good support for the children involved, and it is much easier for a local authority to focus their efforts on the places it is going wrong. This bill, as it is written, has a lot to come in terms of regulation. It gives the local authorities huge powers around some detail of the education that you have provided for your child and the local authority can dip your child back into school. That is the way it is written.

I understand that it is not the way to work in practice, as it has raised considerable concerns in the home education community, and also, talking to local authorities, I have found that their impression is that the government wishes for them to be much stricter and to push children back into school wherever possible. I think these are misapprehensions, and I look forward very much to what the minister has to say on that. Local authorities are thoroughly oversubscribed, financially stressed.

Home education department is usually small. Sometimes people have been pitched into it for the first time and having to learn their way through it. Sometimes people of extreme intolerance. Portsmouth gets intolerance. Portsmouth gets mentioned frequently. But I share a letter from home educators from Bristol Council which shows a deep lack of understanding of how the relationship between local authorities and home educators should work. So, we need to come out of this bill with clear ways that the Department of education can steer local authorities, help them improve their practice.

And offer a course for parents who feel they are badly done by the local authority. And I hope to see a way of celebrating the good practice which goes unnoticed too often. Those local authorities are doing their jobs well. To come to the particular amendments in this group, we are amendments in this group, we are looking at a request for information which is very loosely described and might be interpreted at a really detailed level as to what the child is doing for five minutes of the day.

Who are they interacting with? Home education will be a very loose, very varied way of educating a child through a parental direction in their following with no clear predetermined path to record that in the way in which this bill seems to ask for which would require a daily report sent by the parent to the local authority. This can't be something that we are set up to do. We need something that will be sensible and practical to try and understand what that is.

And there is certainly an established practice in some local authorities of an annual report which can vary between six and 60 pages. That allows a parent to present a clear and consistent picture of the education that the child has been receiving to put everything in context. I would have thought, and the noble Lord Lord Crisp has been pushing on this as well, that that would be the very best basis for the relationship of reporting from a parent to a local Where everything is consistent, helps the parents look through.

The detailed powers in this bill, if it was to be as it is set out, in the face of this bill, would be hugely disruptive for local authorities and for parents. And I think we also for parents. And I think we also have to look at the way in which the failure to provide detailed information results and consequences. There is far too much scope in there for things to get really difficult and distracting.

The amendment to hundred and 33 from a noble friend Lord Wei -- 233 proposes that qualified teachers be exempt from registration, and there are similar suggestions in others amendments. I think this reflects the difficulty that we sometimes see where the local authorities start, performing the home education roles, don't have sufficient background, sufficient confidence, sufficient support that they will trust their own judgement. If you have got two qualified teachers bringing up their child, or somebody who is clearly having a good history of successfully educating children, it ought to be easy for the local authority personnel to place trust in that, to say, no, we don't have to, this is clearly a good place, I don't need to see the children, I understand what the education being provided here, it is clearly quality.

I need to turn my attention in other directions. That system works, in many local authorities, and others it is completed broken down. Which the Bristol I think illustrates. We need ways in which that sort of relationship can be encouraged and work breaks down, we can get some restoration, some move back towards the sector. Amendment 318 from a noble friend looks at the difficulty where it concerns, or you are concerned with people who are distant from maintaining schools, around 321 is looking again at people who are clearly succeeding.

Amendment 322 looks at how you deal with nomadic families. All these are details on which I would hope to hear, either from the Minister or later from her officials. We need to understand how these things work. But if there is the basic arrangement there of quality local authorities supported by clear direction from the government, a lot of these difficulties are clearly insuperable without getting too fast insuperable without getting too fast

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-- they are clearly surmountable. Amendment proposed, page 15, line 18, insert the words as printed in the marshalled list.

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Is it's the first time I'm speaking in Committee, I declare
11:20
11:21
Lord Crisp Portrait Lord Crisp (Crossbench)
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I'm delighted to have the chance to speak after the noble Lord Lord Lucas and his very eloquent and Lucas and his very eloquent and moving statement to the House about how he sees this and echoing, those really important points, this is about relationships in the end. And it's about children and children's needs and their relationships. It is about, there's a real danger with this bill as he has said that this will be hugely disruptive for local authorities and parents and in many ways, could be a real recipe for trouble to come, if we get this wrong.

But I think there are ways in which we can get this right and get which we can get this right and get which we can get this right and get . The lock to get right. I'm going to come back to some of those points. The civil point I wanted to make was in relation to 238 in the name of noble Lord Lucas which was about the requirement to know which parents are education, how and for how long. We are going to come back to went in various ways later on.

There are two really key points here, one is about safeguarding where there is an issue with at least one of the parents which noble Lord Lord Storey has got amendment. And also what about division of time between parents educating which the noble Lady Lady Barran has got an amendment on. It seems that this whole section needs to be rethought. What do we really need to? We need to know which parents are taking responsible see, we need to know where they are, how they can be contacted.

But the rest of it is superfluous. I will just simply make those points in response to the amendment to hundred and 38.

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Arrives to support Amendment 234, to which I put my name, but also more generally to endorse the views that my noble friend Lord Lucas and that my noble friend Lord Lucas and that my noble friend Lord Lucas and Lord Crisp have just set out. I have begun to engage with home education as a concept and as a community and
11:23
Lord Frost Portrait Lord Frost (Conservative)
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as a concept and as a community and it's clear right from the start that the community is very well motivated, and indeed deeply reflective about education in this country and how it works. And they have a lot of expertise into which governments should be trying to tap into and learn from rather than regiment and regulate. If it should turn out the worst happens and indeed my noble friend Lord Lucas is forced to step back from advocating from the sector, I'm sure and I and other laws will be willing to pick this up and continued the discussion.

I thank the Minister and the team for all the communication that there has been over the summer as they have been very comprehensive communications and emails, it has been very helpful and will be very useful today. I want to make one brief point today which is relevant to amendment 234 but also to all those in this group which is the point about trust, that trust is the way home education works. Trust and mutual understanding. And in many ways, the Bill as drafted gives huge powers to the government which appear to be based on a lack of trust and a determination to regulate, very detailed, prospective, because all sorts of practical difficulties.

And based on a misunderstanding in some ways about how much of home education actually works. It's true that some local authorities are not as positively motivated as others. It's certainly true that all in this area are extremely overworked and it's difficult to see what is gained by generating vast amounts of paper and reporting which go to a draw and are not much looked at. To conclude, if it's not too late, I do think that a rethink in this area is helpful, if they can be pulling back some of the descriptive list, better understanding from government and locally about this area.

And more support for local authorities, clear direction from government to get the approach right. I look forward to hearing what the noble Lord the Minister has to say later on today. This
11:26
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
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Well, my Lords, I look back at bedtime ago when I think it was ages ago I had a very simple private spill which said that home educators should register. That was it. And you would think I had ignited a bonfire of education because the online abuse, the letters that poured in, was just unbelievable. And perhaps stupidly, with Lord Addington, decided to organise a roundtable to discuss home education with home educators, and teacher associations and anyone else in interested and that was a real loving her.

-- A real learning curve. Since then I have got to know many home educators. Once you book on home education. But it feels like there is finger jabbing but we became quite good friends and I understood home education quite well. And since that time, we have all gone on a journey, and it's a very important journey. I think we have to ask ourselves, why do we want to do this? And I think we want to do this for one reason only.

And that is our young people and our children. Actually, if every home educated child went to school, the school system would not be able to cope. And that makes me also think, the points that Lord Lucas has made, is quite correct. It's all very well us agreeing legislation but we have always got to have at the back of our minds, will it work? And for me, the important thing is not only knowing where our children are, not only knowing that our children are getting education, but also knowing that there is a correct relationship between the local authority and the home educator.

And there are some fantastic examples of work local authorities work really closely, really successfully, with home educators, to the benefit of both. There are some learning curves from other local authorities don't have that good relationship with that relationship and think that waving the cane and waving the statute is more important than actually trying to do what is in the best interests of the child. And while there are thousands of wonderful home educators, I have to tell you that there are also children who are not being home educated, who are just languishing at home for all sorts of reasons.

I have to tell you because I have said before, there are children who are being home educated who are in a religious setting where it is not about a wide education, it is about understanding their particular religious texts. And that is not in my mind beneficial for the child as a whole. So glad we have child as a whole. So glad we have always got the stage where we think that we should actually register children who are home educated, not least as we know where they are and hopefully we can make sure that they are safeguarded.

I'm not sure that having an education portfolio is the same as registering. I'm not sure that being a grand trust master entitles you to say, I don't need to register -- being a grand chess master. And I'm not sure that even teachers with formal education qualifications don't have to register. That just seems bizarre to me. Live in a society where one of the important words is equality, equality of opportunity, whoever and wherever you are. I hope that when we continue this journey at report stage, we are not just mindful of home educators, but now as a local councillor, mindful of the capacity issues for local education authorities and we want to make sure that they are able to cope with the legislation and make sure it works not just for the family, not just for the child but for the local for the child but for the local
11:31
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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All of the amendments in this group, in the name of Lord Wei, ably presented by Lord Lucas seek to find exemptions or exceptions to the basic principle that there should be a register of children not in school. And quite rightly, my noble friend stressed the importance of the relationship between the local authority and home educating parents. And other noble Lords have pointed out, the government does need to take great care in this legislation, that it doesn't inadvertently damage that relationship and that potential trust by the requirements set out in the bill, but having said that, I cannot support these amendments and their aim to find exemptions.

Firstly, at its simplest, the point of the register is to ensure that a local authority knows which children are not in school. Secondly, one of the key points of the register, as I understand it, is that it would allow home educating parents who need support from the local authority to access the support, and again, excluding these children would prevent that, and finally, these amendments make an assumption that in these conditions, it may be preferable to educate the child at home, but even if that is the case, in the majority if not the vast majority of cases, I would argue that it still remains reasonable and proportionate to record that that child is not in school.

With regards to amendments to hundred and 34 and 238, I think that my noble friend Lord Lucas has raised some important points of principle that the information collected should be proportionate which, in simple terms, means that the local authority needs to actually use that information as he said in his opening remarks, rather than just recorded, and the governments proposals go a lot further than the legislation we brought forward in 2022, and I share my noble friend 's doubts as to whether it is necessary.

Going back to the point about the local authority and parents, I think a good test for this legislation and one that I tried to use when we debated the 2022 bill is the legislation needs to feel fair to parents, and I think there is a risk with the amount of information with the information that has been requested, that it should feel unfair and damage that relationship with the local relationship with the local authorities. We will be able to reassure the house that is not the case.

Before I begin, I would just like to thank the noble Lords Lord
11:36
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Wei, Lord Lucas, Lord Crisp, Lord Hacking, and the Right Reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester for Prelate the Bishop of Manchester for taking time over summer to meet with taking time over summer to meet with my officials. Having the opportunity to discuss in detail with noble Lords how the children not in school Lords how the children not in school provisions are intended to work in practice was extremely beneficial and instructive. And I'm giving careful consideration to some of the finer details of the provisions with finer details of the provisions with which noble Lords have indicated they are not wholly satisfied, and I have to say to the noble Lord Lord have to say to the noble Lord Lord Lucas, we have worked well and closely with home educators who are closely with home educators who are rightly challenging on the issues rightly challenging on the issues that noble Lords have raised in the debate here, and just to be debate here, and just to be completely clear, we know that the home education community is diverse and varied.

It can take place in all and varied. It can take place in all works of life, in cities, the countryside, delivered by those with professional teaching experience and professional teaching experience and those without. It is often delivering an excellent education to delivering an excellent education to children. But it is important that the registers work as intended. They shouldn't encroach on the ability to home educate, and I have said previously in these debates and will continue to say that we wholly recognise the right of parents to educate their children outside school, but they must also make it possible for local authorities to possible for local authorities to identify all children not in school.

That is why the bill also places a new duty to provide information when requested by parents. This should give us a clearer picture on how give us a clearer picture on how children are educated. This information will support the department to identify best practice and to consider how this can potentially be replicated across authorities to build strong and testing relationships with parents, and I do recognise the point made by several noble Lords already today, that this is important, that we are sure that these relationships are maintained and built on the basis of trust, and a sense of what is being asked for by the government is reasonable.

And we will, as the noble Lord says, use this information to support and direct local authorities to ensure that that is happening, not as I know some people fear to prevent parents from home educating and to make sure that relationship is based on a recognition of best interest of children and the right to parents to educate their children at home as long as they are providing suitable education. The department has education. The department has stepped in.

Speaking on the amendments, they do seek to make sure that children are registered on children not on school registers, and then to reduce the mandatory information requested from parents for the registers. This group seeks to do that on account of evidence provided by the parents or the circumstances of the child or parents, and I will respond first or parents, and I will respond 1st to all the amendments dealing with which children on registers. As we have heard from the noble Lady baroness, a key objective of the registers is to aid authorities in their existing duty to identify all children in their areas who are not registered in school and who are not registered in school and who are not While I don't agree with the amendments, I am afraid that the amendments, I am afraid that the logic doesn't track, even in terms of looking at qualifications for registration, as per amendments to 33 demonstrating education.

The local authority would need to know of the children and record details of their parents. Which might actually be more cumbersome than the requirements that this is asking for. Amendments 318 and 32 to seek to exempt children from rural areas unless safeguarding reforms are present. As well as children from the magic families. This would require local authority to have an awareness of these children in order to make these assessments. A registration system is the obvious solution to collect an appropriate level of information about a child circumstances.

In 2316 exemption for inclusion through an annual portfolio and amendment to 326 exemption if the parent has educate a child that has gone on to university. Just because a parent has previous demonstrating suitable education or has previously home educate a child who progressed to further or higher or a parent hold certain qualifications, it doesn't necessarily follow that that child will receive a suitable education indefinitely or at all, and furthermore, exempting children on the basis of achieving status of a chess grandmaster to make sure the child is in suitable education or assay.

I turn now to the amendments in this group and concerning the mandatory information requested from parents to be held on authority registers. Amendments to 34 and 238. In later groups, we will talk further about the nature of this information. The information required of parents is necessary to build an accurate understanding of who is involved in a child's education and where this education is taking place. And just to be absolutely clear, the only information required to be held on registers is information given to parents and obtainable by local authorities, and considered necessary for suitability of education and safety of the child.

Basic information such as the child's name, date of birth, address, and high-level details of education provided by the parent and others, and we will go into this in more detail, but just to be absolutely clear in relation to the point made by the noble Lord Lucas, courses which require daily weekly or even monthly reports from parents. That is absolutely not what the intention is here. We don't believe that this very basic information is overly burdensome for parents to provide or for local authorities to request and maintain.

Turning to amendment 234 tabled by Lord Lucas, this amendment would mean that parents would not be under a duty to provide information for registers. We know that many local authorities already maintain registers and that some parents voluntarily provide information for these, but the status quo isn't good enough. It is currently too easy for children to slip under the radar. If a child has never attended a school or has recently moved to a new local authority, the local authority may be unaware the child is in the area.

We need to be certain the local authorities are aware of all children not in school to find children who need support. This requirement is proportionate, and it does bring the process in England and to the same level as the majority of other countries. In some countries, they are much more supportive of home education than many other countries. On this, I just hope you will permit me a brief digression to clarify a point of confusion that I know has been raised and concerned parents regarding consequences of parents failing to provide information for registers.

If a parent does not supply the required information, they are not subject to a fine. Instead, the consequence of failing to provide information is that the local authority men, at their discretion, issue a notice requiring the parent to satisfy the local authority that the child is receiving a suitable education. As is the case now, should the parent fail to do this, and it is expedient for the child to attend school, the local authority must then issue a school attendance order requiring the child to attend school.

If the parent breaches that order, and they cannot prove that the child is being suitably educated, it is only then that they will be found guilty of an offence and could be subject to a fine imposed at the magistrates courts discretion. It is important to reiterate that the school attendance order process that would be used here is an existing process and that fines for breaching an order are completely avoidable through compliance. With this in mind, the number of families ultimately subject to a fine for breach of an order will be low compared to the overall numbers of orders issued.

Turning to amendment 238, also tabled by Lord Lucas, this amendment seeks to remove the requirement to retain information about the education child is Each parent has an equal Education for their child. To help determine if this is the case, it is important local authority can establish how much education is received from each parent alongside that being received from other people or organisations. We hardly recognise some parents will use educational styles that are not like school like methods and we will consider this when setting out in regulations how time must be recorded on registers.

Regardless of the style of education if children are not receiving a suitable education local authorities must intervene. If fundamental information such as whether the child is receiving education from the parent and how much is unavailable then the local authority might not have enough information to know whether they should take action. I hope I have provided, and we will go on to some of the other details later on in the groups, I hope I have provided explanations here for the reasons why the register should exist and why we should not allow the exemptions identified here and for those reasons I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw the amendments.
11:47
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Conservative)
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I'm very grateful to the Minister for that reply. In particular for the word she said on the relationship with local authorities. I will study that in Hansard and I will study that in Hansard and come back to if I have any problem but my first impression was that it was hugely positive and very helpful and thank you very much. She said that the Department for Education has intervened with local authorities. I will ask for a better understanding of how that process works.

Because it's such an important part of making sure that local authorities who are not in the best place progress to better one. I understand the objection to my noble friend's don't register amendments. I was wondering how he would have argued for Mozart. I think Mozart might have appreciated intervention of the local authority in his education. I would like to pick the government off again on how nomadic families are to work with this legislation.

Which local authority to the register with? How does it work? Just so it's clear, I know it's an item of detail, and we will see the amendment on knowing how that works for nomadic families and families who are not consistently in one place would be very helpful. The Minister said some very helpful things about requiring high-level information, not every day or every three months, coming back to the position Lord Crisp has made about can we focus on an annual report.

I would love to see... The bill doesn't say that. The government is relying on its ability in guidance to take what's in the bill which is a very detailed every minute requirement and say, if you give us a report once a year that will be fine. I did ask very early on, I sent a message in through the Department to the government's legal draughtsman to say what other limits on this? How far can guidance actually go against what is there in the bill.

Does the government actually have the power to say in guidance that an annual report will be enough. I would really appreciate an answer on that and I would like to understand where where that applies. And similarly that applies to things like where parents are together and the requirement to say, who is providing how much of the education, that again obviously can be dealt with in regulation but is it actually within the government power to put that in guidance? When it comes to the consequences of failure, I'm delighted, and I did think it was the case that there was no fines involved but the process is moving towards a school attendance order.

In this area of the process is the punishment it is being tipped into, this process and the stress and the worry and the effort required in fighting through that process. And therefore you come down to again the importance of a strong and positive relationship and a well setup local authority and how important that is to this bill working. For now I beg to leave to withdraw the amendment. -- Is a gorgeous pressure the amendment be withdrawn? It is by leave withdrawn.

Amendments to hundred 32 and 233, not moved. Amendment 233, A, not not moved. Amendment 233, A, not A bigger one, amendment 234. Amendment already debated. Now This group concerns data protection and sharing. The obviously dealing here with some very personal data that people want to be sure it is handled right, that it is not shared with the wrong people, particularly if doesn't you have got families who are in the process of breaking up where abuse is concerned it doesn't get the wrong people.

I think and large the amendment that I'm responsible for and this group are suffix country and it would be most helpful for me to listen to the Minister first and respond to where

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the government finds itself. Amendment proposed, closer to

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Amendment proposed, closer to one, page 54, line 38, insert the words as printed in the marshalled

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list. I just want to do so few words on

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I just want to do so few words on amendment 205 four, A and the name of noble Lord story. To spell out but I suspect noble Lords understand
11:53
Lord Crisp Portrait Lord Crisp (Crossbench)
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but I suspect noble Lords understand fully is that there are issues here in certain cases where perhaps one parent has been abusive of a child or their partner, their spouse, that it is vitally important that addresses are not made available to that parent. And there needs to be, I know in discussions, perhaps I can go back to the three steps, and prefaced his remarks by firstly saying how much I appreciate the warm remarks that the noble Lady the Minister has made in her opening remarks about home education and setting a much better tone than was intended to come through in this debate.

And also something else I omitted to say which was my thanks to her and her officials for that excellent meeting lasting much of the day, in which frankly they were very open, very willing to discuss things, very helpful. I don't know how much movement we got out of it but we will see during the course of today, but I do think it was very helpful to have that and to understand that clearly. I also wanted to note that as all noble Lords have said, there is such an issue of balance here, the balance between supporting the good people who are providing home education because it's better for their children, and the recent it was good education, and the missing children, the children who are abused or neglected or missed out, the noble Lord Lord Storey made an important intervention on.

It's that balance we need to get right. I do think on amendment 254, A, there needs to be something in the face of the bill, in the discussion with officials we discussed this point, the point was made this can be picked up in regulation but I think there needs to be something on the face of this bill in order to help the various parents who I know are specifically worried about this point about safeguarding, that actually it would be useful, and this amendment is probably as simple as it comes in terms of pointing out that where there is a concern, abuse, some order standing against one parent's name that this particular section should be handled by an authority in the local -- in an appropriate

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fashion. I rise to speak to amendment 206

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I rise to speak to amendment 206 to 7 in my name and others. My thanks for their support. This amendment mandates local authorities not to keep the information they
11:56
11:57
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
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Are rise to speak to my amendment to 54 and thank Lord Crisp for his comments. I want to predicate my comments by saying, as a society we can be proud of the fact that we have carefully and proportionately brought in over the years safeguarding procedures which really make a difference to the lives of children, and we know-large that our children are safe. There are occasions where we find that there is a gap in the regulations, a gap in the provision, and again, we come together to try and sort that out.

In a sense, safeguarding information can be shared with parents, and this amendment comes from conversations from a number of organisations who have given their thoughts about how in some cases this can be harmful for the child. If there is a safeguarding concern, details can be shared with both parents about if that puts a risk of further harm to the child, I ask the question, is that appropriate? In a sense, this is a probing amendment, and I'm really interested in terms of this particular amendment what the Minister has to say and that will impact my thoughts when we come to

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report stage. My Lords, I will speak very

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My Lords, I will speak very briefly to this group which in common with some of the earlier groups, seeks to probe the groups, seeks to probe the government lie position in relation to some important albeit quite a to some important albeit quite a call issues. And those include the
11:59
12:01
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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So, the amendments in group 2 around the sharing and protection of information on the registers, and I can completely understand the concerns processing of data. And I hope to be able to provide some of the reassurances that are seeking in my response. But we must be clear that we mustn't make them a barrier to legitimate information sharing, recording and sharing information can be life-saving, and as with all ready discussed, children will support local authorities to keep accurate records of eligible children, identifying those that require support and facilitating better coordination between support services as well as enabling them to fulfil the requirement to understand where children are receiving information outside school.

Turning to amendment 235 which seeks to ensure that local authorities are not required to collect information on the registers that would be incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, our published memorandum outlines the position on this, and we are confident that the provisions in this bill are compatible. Turning to As with amendment 238, which I spoke to in the previous group, these amendment seeks to place exemptions on the requirement for registers to contain certain information on the child's parents, and I've outlined why that information is vital, but I do appreciate that noble Lords have tabled these amendments based on concerns that some parents are estranged from their parents for some reason such as Domestic Abuse Act, recognising that concern, we have engaged with organisations that have engaged with organisations that have supported the proposals, and we will continue to do so as part of our implementation.

Organisations like Women's Aid have long called for the introduction of children out of school registers. It is one of the recommendations they have made as part of their 19 child report published in June this year. If a parent could pose a risk to the child, it is even more crucial that they have this. Holding this information whether they are providing information to the child and time spent on such education should help to identify the frequency the child has with the parent and this can feed into a local authorities assessment as to whether a child is at risk of harm or is likely to be receiving an unsuitable education so that further action can be taken if needed.

Without evidence, it is difficult for authorities to intervene, but I do understand the concerns of parents, and I want to respond to that. To be clear, parents who fled domestic should be reassured that they will not be required to seek out the details of the other parent. To ensure that the register will not reveal the whereabouts of a parent who escaped abuse. Data will help to ensure that all those on the register are safe stop specifically in cases where known abuser has made a subject access request regarding the child, the local authority can make determinations considering the fact of the case including safeguarding concerns, and I and my colleagues are clear in ensuring all appropriate safeguards can be in place.

We will continue to work with expertise in domestic to ensure that all necessary protections into the guidance that we will produce. Linked to this but on a slightly different issue, a concern of local registers being published. Let me be clear that local authorities will not be able to publish from there registers the name or an address of eligible children or their parent or any information which could lead to their identities being deduced. The their identities being deduced. The bill contains a provision preventing this, explicitly preventing it.

However, it is important that local authorities can publish information relating to her medication cohorts. Some will be asking for further information along these lines. Information in terms of reasons for her medication and demographics. They will aid transparency into how each local authority is undertaking their duties. We will ensure that regulations made to this, setting out how register details will be published will be subject to consultation. Turning to amendment 267 tabled in the name of my friend Lady Whitaker and Lord Wei which require the destruction of all data in relation to a child held on a child about 1018 or enrolling in school, I hope I can ensure noble Lords the data protection laws are clear that data must not be kept longer than necessary and must only be retained when there is a lawful basis.

Entries on the register will therefore be deleted prior to the child turning 18 as a child is only eligible to be included on the register if they are of compulsory school age. As my noble friend alluded to, some information may need to be retained on other . For example, looked after child remains with the local authority until they are 25, and it is crucial to hold some historical information as part of education and safeguarding enquiries. The current laws already allow for this.

Turning to amendment 275, these amendments seek to make sure parents are notified of any data breaches that occur as part of measures. They claim compensation and the local authorities are liable for Affected individuals without undue dilemma where there is high risk that they are adversely affected by the breach. And as a result, do have a right to claim compensation from the local authority who may also face fines or regulatory action. Turning to amendment 305 tabled by Turning to amendment 305 tabled by Lord Lucas, these amendments seek to restrict or remove the powers relating to the use of sharing of data on the registers for top as I've suggested earlier, local authorities and the Department do need to collate and share register information often at speed to the safeguarding or welfare of the Section 436 Section 436 shared Section 436 shared different circumstances, for example, local authorities may share information with those persons and organisations listed in section 11 one of the If If there If there is If there is information If there is information on If there is information on registers that can aid these organisations in protecting or promoting the welfare of a child, then I'm sure noble Lords will agree that it is important that it is shared.

In relation to amendment 328, I want to reassure noble Lords that immigration authorities do not feature in any of these categories. Turning to men and 297, which seeks to remove the requirement for out- of-school education providers to provide local authorities with the names, dates of birth and home addresses of children attending the provision above the prescribed threshold, we will come on later to talk in more detail about the provided duty, but this amendment removes the provided duty which we argue is crucial in supporting local authorities to identify children who should be on registers but are not, and to crosscheck records for children already on registers.

There is no way for local authorities to achieve this without asking for basic identifying information. Turning to amendment 504, tabled by Lord Lucas, which would delay the commencement of the children not in school registers until the National Cyber Security Centre or an equivalent body certifies them, the government already conducts extensive internal and external assurance processes to ensure systems are safe and secure before launch. To support local authorities in meeting the Data Protection Act legation under the measures to provide best practice for keeping information secure.

And finally, turning to the noble Baroness amendments which opposes the amendment that clause 43 stay part of this bill, because 33 in responding to this group ensures that the processing of personal information is required or enabled by this bill does not contribute the Data Protection Act 2018. It promotes the highest standards of data security and transparency. And the noble Lords will be able to agree that the clause stay as part of the bill and to withdraw their

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amendments. I'm grateful to the Minister for

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I'm grateful to the Minister for that thoughtful response. I will pick up her thing that I disagree pick up her thing that I disagree with which I didn't notice. I will just say something on amendment 504. The amendment has created this cybersecurity centre because the risks and techniques and the availability are moving so fast, particularly with AI, so the best particularly with AI, so the best possible expertise are available to all government departments, and time and again, they are not using it.

There is a recent case I have been There is a recent case I have been dealing with where we got a chunk of dealing with where we got a chunk of their code, the vital core code their code, the vital core code developed in Romania. It is not secure to do that. You don't know what it is doing or who it is doing what it is doing or who it is doing it for. And the way in which devices it for.

And the way in which devices were not up to scratch either. The resources there as part of government. It should be used by departments who can't keep up with the latest in threats when it comes to security. It really is the best that can be done. Otherwise, a big move to move the amendment.
12:14
Lord Hacking Portrait Lord Hacking (Labour)
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The amendment is now withdrawn.

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The grouping of these amendments has become a bit confusing. My has become a bit confusing. My amendments to, three 5 AM to 37 are amendments to, three 5 AM to 37 are directed to the sexually abused children, but so are amendments to children, but so are amendments to 36 a of the noble Lord Lucas, and so 36 a of the noble Lord Lucas, and so is amendment to 5 for a from Lord is amendment to 5 for a from Lord Storey.

But I will be addressing now Storey. But I will be addressing now for this section the problem of protecting sexually abused children at this stage in this group, and I at this stage in this group, and I didn't intervene earlier because I thought it was sensible if I could collect them altogether or collect my words altogether to deal with the my words altogether to deal with the I would like to refer to my noble I would like to refer to my noble friend the Minister when she got to the Dispatch Box at the beginning of the Dispatch Box at the beginning of this stage of the committee, and mentioning in-kind terms my name and mentioning in-kind terms my name and the names of Lord Crisp, Lord Lucas, and other noble Lords who had been participating in this bill.

And she also referred to the meetings that have taken place at the Department of education with her officials, and I might add with her colleague, the Minister Stephen Morgan and I wish to express extreme thanks to my noble friend and the officials fought the helpfulness of it and on this bill, the government is listening. This is not been exactly a feature of recent bills, either from the Conservative benches or from my benchers but on this bill the government is listening and we are very grateful.

My Lords, my attention to this problem was drawn by a mother who had a serious problem over her husband abusing her problem over her husband abusing her son. That kind lady, she has been very objective and very forceful in presenting her case. She did speak to the noble Lord Lord Frost, I'm sorry he's not in the chamber. She came to speak at the noble Lord Chris. I don't know if she came to speak to Lord Lucas but certainly he has been in contact with her.

And it's therefore been very helpful to have the evidence that she was providing. I will not identify her, although I should also mention the Minister himself, Stephen Morgan, Minister himself, Stephen Morgan, met her as well, and the officials, my noble friends officials have also met her and exchanged emails with her. There has been a lot of information that has been exchanged which I think a spoon very helpful. which I think a spoon very helpful. In brief, that her son was abused, sexually abused, by her husband.

I think at the start of the age of four and then it went on for several years. And when the mother found out, she was absolutely horrified and wanted, as all mothers, who are facing the same situation, wanted the maximum of protection. And that is what these amendments are trying to do. My submissions on this issue is not based just on one case. I'm afraid there are a number of cases of sexual abuse on children which were either undetected or unreported, or both.

This brings me back to many years ago when I was a barrister appearing at the Lincoln Assizes and I was involved in the case of incest. And the prosecution case against the accused was that he was committing incest on the complainant but the complainant was both his daughter and his granddaughter. And that illustrates how horrific that this problem of sexual abuse can be. Going to these amendments, the protection that is really being sought is that the misbehaving husband should not have any access to any information, particularly as my noble friend identified, tickly as to the whereabouts and address of the abused child.

That he should be entirely separated from that child. I can do it in a number of ways, in Lord Lucas's way, it Lord Crisp 's way, I must apologise to Lord Crisp, 237 are now being moved over to 3 -- 235, A, somehow as his name was lost from the marshalled list, so I do apologise but I do hope he has forgiven me, Lord Crisp is a very forgiving P. I take the position, the point I really wanted to establish, but he is supportive of establish, but he is supportive of this amendment.

I'm not quite getting a nod but I will work on the basis because he's a very sensible amendment. Of course the Minister is quite right to use that data protection to, but she said there is a very strict rule in subclause five of clause 436, C, which puts a strong prohibition on the publication of any information in the register and also being made accessible to the public. I keep calling her my Leonard friend. She is very learned. But I should stick to the correct parliamentary description of my noble friend.

Anyway, to go back to subclause five, as provide a strong prohibition but of course that means that the officials would access to the register have to be trusted to follow subsection 5. And the who might just referred who has been so helpful in our deliberations on this issue, recalls a situation when a husband who had been convicted of wrongful sexual abuse office child, or two children actually in that case, two girls, had been sent to prison.

He then brings up to collect information from the register which is given. And so the only way that we in this House can properly protect the abuse child being traced by the abusing father is by making sure that the information is not in the register, and did it -- if it is not in the register it cannot be released. I suggest that is the best approach. I do end by thanking noble friend, indeed for the way she has been inducting this entire bill by her helpfulness and her willing to listen and above all, her willingness to work with this House.

And that is a matter of great congratulations and great thanks. I soon the noble Lord would like to move his amendment?

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Thank you very much. Before putting the amendment I

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Before putting the amendment I must apologise to the committee, I should have advised the committee, as the noble Lord Lord Hacking has as the noble Lord Lord Hacking has alluded to, that amendment to hundred and 37 is in an incorrect place in the marshalled list, hence place in the marshalled list, hence my calling to 35, A. Moment post, my calling to 35, A. Moment post, clause 31, leave outlines 40 to 44 and insert the words as printed in

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the marshalled list. This is the point at which I want to make one of the two main
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Lord Crisp Portrait Lord Crisp (Crossbench)
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interventions, but I propose to make today. And that is on my amendment to hundred 54, B. For a come to that, can I comment on two other amendments. The first one is that I added my name to Baroness Barran's amendment to hundred 39 which leaves out the bit about having the spirit of hours between which parents are providing how many hours per week which seems to be completely redundant information. I do understand the point that the register should include reference to the fact that parents are providing information, it is not all being done through education but it seems the split is unconvincing.

When the noble Lord the Minister responded to this point in an earlier group, she said something about wanting to know the number of hours of education that were taking place during the week. I think I may have misinterpreted it but I think that was what was said. It prompts me to ask the question of the noble lady, does she have a number of hours per week that is expected to be covered? I would be interested to know if there is some number that the Department has in mind.

The second one, amendment, which again I admire name to, -- had my name too, is 260 which is about the local authorities being able to ask for any other relevant information, again, I think this is too much of a Catterall. I think there's enough information provided -- to much of a catch all. I would be keen to hear the noble Lady bonus 's arguments on this, and that the noble Lady the Minister will accept. My main intervention is on 254, B, the first point which the parents are asked to provide a lot of information about who is providing the information.

My amendment picks up the point that this is a very possible providers, as it's written in could include the occasional organised event. It could include regular visits to the guides which is an educational charity a understand, it could include rugby clubs, and other things like that, anything that has an educational component as it is written. And may I just say in parenthesis, that I have already received one reference from one provider of home education, a Wildlife Trusts in the Midlands which has already written to the people which provides home education for saying that it will no longer, if we can put this on hold until it is clear what the impact of the billers.

Already this Wildlife Trusts, I don't know what level of education it provides but it has stopped providing education to home educating children because of its fears of what this bill might mean for it in future in terms of the amount of information it has to provide. However my intervention here is about the information that the parent needs to provide, or the parents need to provide. My amendment is written, our very useful discussions with officials, they made it clear that they were put in regulations that implied there was a certain amount of time beyond which one-off events didn't count, actually events that happened once a week but were only three hours long or whatever wouldn't be taken into account, things that were primarily social and recreational.

I think we need to have some parameters in the face of the bill which is why my requirements says that the requirement to provide the information set out in subsection 1, E, any applies to providers providing regular education sessions, amounting to 10 hours or more a week which are not primarily social or recreational in nature and importantly what we have discussed, and where the information is not already been provided to the authority in other formats, such as an annual report.

Let me pick up the point about duplication. I'm asking as anyone to weed out fake or failing home education parents or arrangements. However, I don't think this register is the way to do it. Form filling will not cut the diversity of the child's needs and educational methods. It is the match between the two of those that did so vital. Critically as we know that more of those more than half of those home education have special of different sorts.

This is not A1 size get this bill seems to be treating it as if it is. No I believe will inspection of a child's work and timetable without the wider context of a parents own assessment of the child needs an effective method in doing so. Mrs out the most important evidence of all, the reality of that particular child and the circumstances. That is why I think the attempt to use the register to try and make any assessment of the quality of education provided is fundamentally flawed.

And there is an existing alternative. I understand that existing case law is that an authority is entitled to ask for annual report of meeting. And parents have the right to determine the content of that report or meeting. That is as I understand it, I did say this in the session before the recess, nobody has conducted me so I'm assuming this is the case. This seems to be entirely sensible and since then I have seen several annual reports which describe amongst many things the reason the child is being homeschooled, home educated, maybe social needs, maybe bullying, maybe having been excluded from school, maybe parental preference.

It describes the needs of the child, the educational approach, what is planned and what has been the achieve. This seems to be more effective in assessing the quality of the education than quality of the education than filling in a form. It helps to build a relationship between the home education office and parents, through which if appropriate they can offer guidance and some port, or indeed if appropriate, encourage This need not be a confrontational exercise and it isn't at the moment.

We need to have as little detail as necessary for safeguarding purposes, and use the annual process for the processes, together with regular meetings. The officer and home educational groups. I'm not suggesting individual parents. Which will help set mutual expectations in an area about what is reasonable. At the moment, it seems that the quality of home education has been poorly assessed through a system primarily designed for safeguarding, and it is almost as an add-on to his original bill eight years ago but all this detail is in there.

We have to take advantage of the quality of education they represent. Some are not good and were taken out of school primarily. Home education is expanding, and I expect it will continue to do so as parents vote with their feet, taking on enormous responsibilities for the sake of their children and there has been crass comment on this as the Lord's will know. And I think policy needs developing equally treat fully. Many parents want their children for particular needs, and many have plans to bring their child back into school at the right time.

The first is to review the process that I subscribed, as an alternative some of the requirements in the bill. There is also one for head teachers to be more responsible. There is constant pressures of noise and interaction which affect people so strongly, and the Lord has said that we have to strengthen the home offices and encourage support from the groups and the relationships. Parents need only provide for things, regular education sessions, more than 10 hours a week, which are not primarily recreational nature, and where information has not already been provided to the
12:34
Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)
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The Minister will response afterwards. The statutory local registers of children not in school this assay whether young carers needs assessment has been carried out. It is a revised version of amendment to 51 in my name. Amending section 2, it makes it easier for local authorities to comply section 1 is referring to information which local authorities have or might reasonably obtain. I would like to reasonably obtain. I would like to thank officials for the discussions had which have led to this new had which have led to this new had which have led to this new The MM it is related to a nine The MM it is related to a nine if they are notified by a pupil who is being withdrawn from a pupil.

Amendment 2578 compliments that by including such information on the register. I won't repeat the arguments for improving the protection but mention very briefly the case of Selma who is caring for her mother who has physical and mental health issues and a father who has physical health issues. It is subject to bullying. The parents dated a homeschooling her whilst working to get her back into a specialist provision. After some are returned that specialist provision, she admitted that no homeschooling taken place and she had been carrying around the clock.

She had missed one half years of school before she was given permanent place in that provision. So again, repeating what I have said before, I'm not saying that a carer should never be home educated but we do need safeguarding so that children don't slip off the radar related to both the previous amendment and this one of the delays in carrying out a young carers assistant. I raised this in July. She told me that the Care Quality Commission is currently assessing how well local authorities perform their relevant duties and the 2014 care act and every local authority would have an assessment in March.

She also strongly suggests we lead up to the strong doors initiative, but following the CQC report, I hope we can take action against authorities who are underperforming. The addition of carers to the census and the impact which Karen can have an educational opportunities. We now know that opportunities. We now know that carers in our schools have over a month of our education each year, so including young carers on this register will help ensure local authorities can comply with their duties at the 1989 children act.

Those in need in support. People will be able to be better able to work with families and young carer services to ensure the caring responsibilities to make sure nobody is missing out. And to put it into perspective, there are 50,000 children caring for an alarming 50 hours each week, including over 3000 children aged between five and nine. A further 21,000 children are caring for 49 hours a week. This has a huge impact on health but also on future health chances, with carers taking on significant caring responsibilities, 87% less likely than their peers without caring responsibilities and 56% less lightly to be in employment.

It takes too long to get the support takes too long to get the support they need. We have to make sure the children the front of our thinking when talking about children who are not in school. The clause would mean carer status would only be included on the register if the local authority knows the child is a young carer or could reasonably obtain such information. But given that the majority of young carers are not identified, I would make sure that local authorities are identifying young carers outside of education.

So the simple amendment is a small step in making sure that all carers are able to get the same educational opportunities as their peers, whether they are educated in school or elsewhere.

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In support of the amendment, I
12:40
Baroness Tyler of Enfield Portrait Baroness Tyler of Enfield (Liberal Democrat)
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In support of the amendment, I did add my name to the original amendment. I was a bit slow off the mark in adding my name to his mark in adding my name to his revised amendment that Lord Young has just spoken to, but I do strongly support it. We have set out the case for it extremely well. I want to emphasise a couple of points. I have always had concerns about young carers being withdrawn from school for home education and I'm concerned that they don't get the necessary breaks from caring responsibilities.

We all know how important respite care is, but particularly for young carers. I'm concerned about young carers finding themselves ever-increasing levels of caring responsibilities. Some of the case studies are been looking at, they may be at the more extreme end of the spectrum, they were talking about young carers who were looking after both mum and dad who had multiple needs, physical and mental health needs, as well as two or three younger siblings. How on earth they can take on that caring responsibility and still be ensuring that they are educating themselves, I really don't know.

I was very struck by the statistic that was said about 50,000 children caring for 50 hours or more a week, and that is not compatible with a child. That is not we would want for their own life chances. I'm also concerned they will be missing out on support that could be provided because they are not in school. Some schools are actually very good at running things like mental-health support for young carers, additional support and all of that, and I think it is absently critical that young carers have this kind of support if they need it and if they are actually being educated at home.

The excessive levels of care that these young people are being asked to take on, the impact of their feeling of information, and this amendment is absolutely this amendment is absolutely essential to protect, and the word used was safeguard, and I think we need very strong safeguards if we are to be satisfied that young carers will also be educated. carers will also be educated. carers will also be educated.
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12:45
Baroness Morris of Yardley Portrait Baroness Morris of Yardley (Labour)
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whom were being referred and both sets of needs need to be met, and therein is the difficulty of getting the legislation right, but I took the point about children with caring responsibilities and hope we can take this opportunity to improve that. It is something I have been that. It is something I have been I have a great deal of sympathy and hope it can be resolved. I'm asking the Minister to offer some reassurance or explanation, when she once up the debate.

First of all, I'm not quite sure whether the information is in the forward- looking education plans of a home educated child or whether it is retrospective, so what have you done this year with the child. I think the timing of the information is needed. The second point is, I went to the Royal institution one day and there was a group of children being educated there who were home educated but had come together for that experience because the signs that experience because the signs that education other than that.

I suspect they do that only a few times a year. If I take that as an example, I'm not sure whether that needs to be recorded, whether Royal institution is going to have to provide its postcode, fill in a form, get the information. So some sort of clarification around that would be important. I think the main point, and I know the Minister will understand this, those of us who have spent a lifetime in formal education see time as very different than if you are home educating the people.

We have lived a life of splitting learning into blocks of time. So if I say appear.half a day or whatever, everyone who has taught or been a parent knows that we are thinking in 40 minute chunks or an hour chunks. One of the things I had been attracted by from parents who educate at home successfully is that they use time and space and skills, in a completely different way than those of us who are teachers of formal education and I worry whether we are trying to make them fit into our concept of who tortured, how much time was it and what did you cover because if that was the case, I really do think that we might be losing the good essence of what some parents are doing with home educated children.

My last point is this. When that information is provided, against what is a judgement being made? If it's being sent to somebody like me, who has a very particular understanding of what education is like, if it is somebody who has already got background in home education, our judgement will be different and I'm not clear whether this is just provided so we have got it, or just provided and adjustment will be made about whether it's appropriate. My question would be if it so adjustment will be made, presumably by local authority, what assurance can we have that they have sufficient understanding and experience not to budget just against the criteria of what formal education normally constitutes.



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My Lords, I have a decoration of interest to make. I member of the Northern Ireland curriculum taskforces advisory. I want to support amendments proposed by noble friend Baroness Barran but also to
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Baroness Spielman Portrait Baroness Spielman (Conservative)
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support and echo some of the comments that have been made by Baroness Morris, Lord Young and others. To put in context we are one of the most permissive countries in the world on home education. We have a strong default presumption that parents should be able to home educate if they choose and no expectation of tight supervision of And my counterpart, when I was cheap and spectacle of my counterparts in other countries were often astonished at the degree of freedom parents in this country have.

There are countries where home education is simply illegal. There are many countries where there are significant controls on the quality. So just take one example, in Flanders, I recently talked to the Flanders, I recently talked to the Flanders chief spectacle first, parents must have the child to the end of primary school tests there and if they fail, they have one further opportunity and if they don't pass either time they must be registered into a school. Similarly there are provisions that if parents heatedly refuse to allow a local authority employee to visit there time, then the child must be registered at school.

I'm not advocating the specific glass and putting it in context. Lord Storey made important point this is not a single community. People have referred to community. There are communities around what you might characterise as the archetypal homeschoolers, many of them excellent, and which includes many parents of children with special educational needs of various kinds. They are strongly represented in foreign support groups, -- forum support groups. There are also many parents who don't take part in these kinds of groups, there are parents of children in illegal schools, parents of children who have been essentially forced out of school, off rolled, who typically have substantial behavioural problems and also often significant educational needs and whose parents are disproportionately unlikely to be able to give them a suitable able to give them a suitable education.

There are parents who are simply, who have withdrawn their children to avoid prosecution for non-attendance and there will always be a few sad exceptional cases but I will not go into that. My work made me strongly supportive of a register and I spoke with Lily about this over many years. But I think it's important to be clear about a couple of things. My understanding is that this isn't traversing that historic presumption that parents are free to home educate. So if we draw out the questions I think register is helping local authorities answer, it's the first, is there any reason to think this child will not be getting a suitable education? It's not micro-assuring that yes it's definitely suitable, it's the other way.

Somebody, it's not aiming to provide absolute certainty around safeguarding. It's, are there warnings or flags that suggest that some more work might need to be done. And thirdly, it's about gathering some of the administrative data that governments, central and local government need to understand, understand what they need to provide, where rules and incentives need to change. Being clear about those purposes, quite a lot of what we have heard today has been on the assumption that this is about completely reversing that presumption and moving to micro- judgement, the quality of what every parent is doing at every stage.

I don't think that is there but it could be helpful for it to be explicit that that is not the case. It is important that does not become a register of concern, so I think the requests for exemptions are sadly a little bit misguided because they would narrow this down to being a register of consent. Broadly it is much clearer if it is simply an objective that the register of children in school plus the register of Children Not in School at sup to the totality.

I started today intending to support the pragmatic amendments proposed by Baroness Barran around limiting the information that has to be collected to the things that genuinely support those purposes. What I have heard has led me to think there is a simplification that the government might consider that would help actually draw together and streamline the thrust of the points that had been made around carers for example, Baroness Morris's points, if it is information that we would normally expect to be collected in the administrative data section of a school register, then it should also be in the not in school register.

Where perhaps over complicating it, in terms of what is collected about the education itself, I've got another point to make which is, I think it is important not to push this to Fat. This register, to the extent it contains subjective information about how children are being educated, or children are being educated with flexible models, how much time they are spending on maths, English or whatever it might happen to be, it will not work well, different parents interpreted very differently.

It's the kind of information that even constructing a research study it's hard to do well. So I would suggest there is room for taking this back but, in the light of those purposes I outlined. And commissioning research studies, sample studies, where appropriate. Similarly, lovely as it would be, it is never going to provide, the register cannot provide all the information that a social work department might need to decide that an investigation was necessary. So thinking about what his that is straightforward to collect, not subjective to answer and that will help treat the doughnut we expect, that will not create administrative monster that information that turns out to have a list of little value in practice.

I think that is all I wanted to say. I support this register strongly, as I have said but I think there is one iteration further that can be done with these provisions to make the register as clean and as effective and are supported as it should be. Thank

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you. I wish to follow on, I think my
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Baroness Berridge Portrait Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
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I wish to follow on, I think my noble friend has given an introduction to the comments I wanted to make relation to amendment wanted to make relation to amendment 260, in the name of my noble friend Lady Barran and the noble Lord Lord Hampton. As she mentioned, phrases like not push it too far, or take a step back from this, and the noble Lord Lord Crisp outlined in a previous group that I think it's really important that they should be proportionate reporting, and information collection, and in relation to amendment 260, get down to, and I'm lawyer by training and I have been in government as a minister, these clauses, the government love them, to collect if it's reasonable to obtain it, any other information about the child's characteristics, circumstances or needs.

And then the only caveat to that is, though should be included in the register, for the purposes of promoting or safeguarding the educational welfare of children. My first point in relation to that is previous, that is item M. We have asked for and of a lot of information before have got our lovely scoop it all up close. And is characteristics limited to protected characteristics, that is a separate subparagraph in this clause, so I suspect it is not. So what kind of characteristics will be asked to families in relation to their children? What kind of circumstance, what limit are on their needs.

It is an enormously wide power for them to be able to be reasonable to obtain this information. The only limit on it is for the purposes of promoting or safeguarding educational welfare of children. Part of that limitation is well-known. It dates off the Children Act which we are there to promote and protect the safeguarding of the welfare of children but here we have the safeguarding of education. The slightly new concept that is there is a key limitation in the way the paragraph is put together on what local authorities can ask of families.

So I strongly support amendment 260 in that I don't think that that kind of scoop it all up information of parents in these circumstances, particularly those who may have good reason withdrawn their children and I conceal kinds of headlines and problems if this kind of information on such a broad basis is asked of parents, rather local authority and then I think will be challenged legally to define such a broad clause the government seem to want and also will be the subject matter of complaints of intrusion, and although I agree with the noble Lady Lady Spielman, obviously this is not to back that presumption that it is for parents ) I think such a wide clause giving the local authority such extensive powers to ask for basically any other information risks changing that perception or at the very least creates a perception for parents but it has been changed.



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I rise briefly to add to the

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I rise briefly to add to the
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Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait Lord Russell of Liverpool (Crossbench)
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257, A, from 257, A, from all 257, A, from all sides 257, A, from all sides of 257, A, from all sides of the 257, A, from all sides of the House and to emphasise almost the moral case for it. Earlier on in committee, when we were talking about the important role of kinship carers, I think we recognised the enormous debt that we as society go to kinship carers for the burden they take on and the large number of young children they keep out of the care system.

A disproportionate cost financially and to themselves locally and develop mentally. I think the same is true of young children who end up being carers. As Lord Young said, we have 15,000 children caring for 50 hours or more a week, of whom 3,000 are between five and nine years old. If I remember dimly myself at that age, if I think of my children at that age, the idea of taking on the responsibilities that some of these young carers take on, through no choice of themselves, is extraordinary.

If one was going to write a script for television plate where one tried to emphasise just how difficult the situation is can be, you would just need to look at some real-life examples. So there's a young lady called Ashley in Newcastle who is 11 years old. She cares for three members in her immediate family. Her father has a mental health illness. Her mother has a number of physical health has a number of physical health And to compound matters, one would imagine it would be helpful that the mother, who has physical health issues, in a previous life when she was better, was a teaching assistant.

Because she was a teaching assistant machine of exactly how to respond -- She knew exactly how to respond, when the authority sent out a questionnaire asking what was going on and homeschooling, so the mother was able to fill in the form to make it clear that everything that should have been happening was happening, when it was not. And the mother felt that the situation that she and her family were in, there was a greater need for the family to have a more concentrated time of their 11-year- old Kerry child looking after them, then it was to pay attention to the needs for home education.

That is the situation at one find oneself in. -- That one find oneself in. If you look at the statistics, the number of children last year that the home educated us about 111,000. If you look at those 15,000 children who are caring for 50 years or more, that is a very significant proportion of home educated children, and I do think we have a moral duty to recognise the enormous health those children are provided through know which of their -- Through know which of their own, but the enormous burden that is placed on there needs to be recognised, and I think the solution that Lord Young's amendment has found, which I understand is the active support and engagement of the government, will actually happen, because I do think these children deserve all the help these children deserve all the help we can give them.
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13:04
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Conservative)
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argument. I think what the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, said is hugely important, as Crisp, said is hugely important, as is the response from Lady Morris and the words from my noble friend, Baroness Spielman. This is a set of amendments here, where it is really unclear how they are going to work, it is really unclear whether they are proportionate, and I think we would really like to get a good understanding. We can see there is a purpose, we can see they are important, but we really have concerns about how these are going to, how the demands are going to fit with reality, how they are going to work in particular circumstances.

I will not go into the details amendments that I have, I will wait for the Minister's reply. But the government, and some of the points made by my noble friend, Lord Wei, made by my noble friend, Lord Wei, , but there should be no need for that to supply a private address. And indeed, there are other aspects where it appears that a company has to provide details of all the people applied, and what happens when there are those online companies wait when not interfacing with anyone at any obvious location? But it interfacing with the software.

It is really hard to read what you are supposed to produce and why it is reasonable to produce it. The amendment 248 highlights the absurdity of trying to quantify every minute where parents have their children continuously, and precise time login is trying to force home education is trying to force home education into a classroom straitjacket. Amendment 260, and particularly to earning 61, which my noble friend, Lord Frost, supported, this is breathtakingly open-ended stuff.

What is required here and why? What is the underlying purpose being served by these amendments? And we really have to be careful about going in for open-ended data collection. We can remember, those of us who have been here for a while, what happened after we passed our IPA in the way that local authorities started using it to find out parents who might be cheating when it came to saying what their address was full school applications.

Anything collected under here doesn't just sit quietly in this database, it becomes something that is available always through government. And will be swept up into the profiling systems, used by the police and security authorities. And we know from history that the work of, such as Professor Eileen Munro, that these systems tend to record deficits not strengths, and to build a negative pictures of people, and these particular results in children from black and other ethnic minorities being racially profiled at being bad, because people worry about them.

Then something appears in the database, then that is seen as a problem, and this information appears everywhere. We need to be really careful about how we allow information to be collected. And I don't see any practical provision in here that allows anyone to know what is on the register or collect what is on the register, in an effort to have some process for making it accurate when the local authority has just added stuff of its own volition to the register, it doesn't have to tell anyone he has done it.

It may be completely daft and inaccurate, but there is no precision for how it should be assessed and removed, they would need to look carefully at this. And Doctor Stephen's work on the Troubled Families Program, illustrates where this leads. Intrusive interventions justified by massive data calling, families bullied, to no good effect, with little evidence of positive outcomes. So, my Lords, I think in this sort of area, we should legislate with humility about what the state can manage. What actually is useful, practical? And we shouldn't be careful about turning supportive families into defensive ones.

And educational flourishing into compliance anxiety. And safeguarding it for intrusive

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bureaucracy. My Lords, it is the group about gathering information. And it has struck me there are certain things about how we are collecting the right type of information. And are we ignoring other things? And one of
13:09
Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
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we ignoring other things? And one of the amendments here that really struck me was Baroness Whitaker's, why is that child being home educated? I think that would be a very useful addition to the register. Although, I am fully aware that other people are saying you may well gather more information, indeed get a sea of information, that ignores the key reason. As somebody comes to special educational needs, from special educational needs background, home education, I was familiar with lots of people who removed their children from school because of the school simply didn't have the capacity to teach them accurately.

Because the teacher has been trained to teach somebody who has more conversely confirmed with the norm and they have learnt perhaps to not conjecture of that. The same would be true of the point from Baroness Morris, which he said blocks of time sitting down, studying, is what education is. This is the education that has failed to that group. For instance, many schools say when they are given extra help, if you don't give them the right help, this group, because the learning plans are different, it still won't work.

So, there are lots of little things in here which I would like that the Minister would start to clear up. Too much information at the wrong sort will not help, but even then, there are certain other bits which probably should be there. Are we going to review this periodically? Are we trying to get a feel of it? Because, if we do not, there is a danger that we just overload. But, the register should be there because every child, and this comes back to it, is entitled to an education.

And as was very movingly put by my noble friend, Baroness Tyler, a carer, that child is entitled to some support, they are entitled to be able to function as an adult in the outside world after they finish their caring duties. Indeed if they ever do finish them. And if we do not get a word from that, I would like to know how we are going to use this information. It is a very difficult subject. It is not one that I envy the Minister, when she comes to answer this group, but is one that I think we are entitled to extract information from.

There are lots of situations here, where we need to get an approach more than we need to get an actual detail, in my opinion. Something that actually tells is it going to be flexible enough, does it have an understanding of the type of situation we are going into? Because we have suddenly heard they are variable. And anybody who had a look at this new they were variable. And so, I look forward to the minutes as reply and do not envy her task. reply and do not envy her task.



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My Lords. So, so sorry. I have listened to members talk

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I have listened to members talk on all of these amendments and it on all of these amendments and it has raised some thoughts in my mind, which perhaps I just want to say before dealing with some particular
13:12
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
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before dealing with some particular amendments. One of the things that we perhaps, a result of having the register, will appreciate even more is never mind home education, currently we have 100,000 children missing. Not in home education, not in schools, omitting. -- Missing. I hope that if we establish a register hope that if we establish a register home educated children, we will know the exact number of missing children. And we will have a similar children. And we will have a similar objective to work out how we do some thing about it.

It is one of the highest in Western Europe. That is my first thought. My second thought was we constantly hear from schools about the workload that teachers have to have, and maybe some of the discussions about what we are requiring home educators, the information from home educators, would be music to teachers years as well. -- Teacher's years as well. Remember teaching in my first school, the head didn't require me to keep any records at all. He trusted me as a teacher, there was a syllabus and just got on with it.

After five years, I went to my second score and it was a huge culture shock because the Head Teacher demanded, we all our record books and had to write down in great detail, paragraph about every subject from maths, literacy, numeracy, right through to technology, what we were doing in that week. This discussion also relates to issues for schools as well. Each of these amendments has important things to say. And I was, I thought Baroness Spielman was right, in considering these amendments, what as a value, what adds little value? Sometimes it is not in plain sight.

For example, Lord Lucas said, to amendment 244, he sort of dismissed it as more bureaucracy. And I am surprised that Lord Hampton didn't get up because he has an amendment later ran on a 333, ZA, about safeguarding. I don't think many parents will know that currently, under UK law, and individual barred from working with children due to safeguarding risk or serious offences, including imprisonment, cannot legally offer one-to-one tuition to children, hired directly by the provider.

So, actually, that amendment of Lord Wei's which says, the amendment seeks to avoid having to provide details of staff, for example, online schools et cetera, is a mistake. We should know the details of individuals who are not parents coming into school to do tutoring. I coming into school to do tutoring. I coming into school to do tutoring. I I also want to briefly talk to the amendments, Lord Young of Cookham's and the first amendment which was slightly changed, we have heard from across the House how important this is stop I thought Lord Russell's examples, I could give my own examples from teaching, I think I mentioned this in the House before where a young carer, I still remember his name, Terence, Terry, was always late for school, the reason he was late for school was he was a young carer looking after his baby brother because his mother was a lady of the night, a prostitute, he had to get up in the morning, look after, the this child and get this child off to nursery.

Obviously Terry was always late for school because he was a young carer. I think that amendment, everything we discussed, -- of everything we discussed, was the most important. I thank noble Lords for highlighting that. Again, you look at these amendments, it is deja vu. Baroness amendments, it is deja vu. Baroness Barran talks about the issue of activities, museums, libraries, charities et cetera, about recording those. I actually think, again, in education, the opportunities for young people to visit museums, art galleries, to go on school trips, is probably educationally life changing probably educationally life changing for them.

An earlier amendment where the noble Lord talked about let's have a portfolio, teachers were encouraged of having portfolios of what children were doing outside of school. We have the dreaded records of achievements where we kept records of everything you achieved as children. I obviously upset the Minister. You liked records of achievement, did you? OK. The point I am making is that actually perhaps those parents, it should not be a requirement in the act that they keep portfolios but it is actually quite a useful practice to do.

I think we are coming to a consensus on this. It will be interesting when we go away and come back to report stage, that we have to have something that works for us all, it works for parents, it works for the children and it is not over bureaucratic. It is not something where, I say this as an aside, the number of Ofsted inspectors I talk to that have said, look, I can go into a school and straightaway no a good school without seeing anything, just by the atmosphere in that school.

I suspect when Local Authorities, if they have got the time and resources to go and visit home educators, and that will be a challenging thing. I doubt that will happen in many cases, I would like to see it happen, I would like to see a relationship between the local authority. They will know as soon they go into that House what a good home education is taking place here. So, let's from these amendments take what works and make sure that we come back with the system good for

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our children. I will keep my remarks brief and

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I will keep my remarks brief and focused on my own amendments in this
13:20
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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focused on my own amendments in this group as I know we have a very ambitious target today to complete. I know noble Lords came in early in order to have a well-informed debate already. Turning to amendments 239, 243, 239 and 216, supported and elegantly introduced by the noble Lord, and also with support from Lord Crisp, amendment 239 would remove the requirement to specify the time spent by each parent educating their child described by your Lordships as potentially redundant information.

Amendment 243 would set a minimum threshold of would set a minimum threshold of To prevent parents having to record every piano lesson and burdening Local Authorities with information they cannot realistically assess and has many similarities to amendment 254 amendment 254B, I would not quibble with Lord Crisp, I think it was very well drafted. I think the spirit of the two amendments has much in common. Amendment 249 would exclude weekend and holiday activities so we bring home educated children into line with those schools, we would not dream of asking how they spend their weekends and holidays, we do not want every visit, however fascinating, or every swimming lesson with the local swimming lesson with the local , seeks to remove the ability of the Secretary of State to require additional information.

The Secretary of State sees fit to be included, completely open for future Secretary of State to behave, what many of your Lordships might consider in a way that was unreasonable and unfair. I think it is excessive belt and braces which To reconsider. I beg to move the To reconsider. I beg to move the To reconsider. I beg to move the Let me speak to amendment 235A, tabled, introduced by Lord Hacking, although it seems this amendment had several parents and I will try to respond to the principles of it.

Amendment 239 in the name of Lady Barran, these amendments would mean that registers would only be required to contain the names and
13:25
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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addresses of the parents rather than details, parents would not need to provide information on how much time their child spends with each parent. their child spends with each parent. As I said in relation to Lord Lucas's amendment 238, there is equal responsibility in securing a equal responsibility in securing a For their child, this remains the case even if a parent is not case even if a parent is not providing the education themselves and instead of securing other and instead of securing other providers to do.

In relation to providers to do. In relation to access to information, are on the access to information, are on the registers. I hope I have given some assurance in my comments in the previous group about the control and previous group about the control and the requirements for confidentiality around the register that would around the register that would But, for example, additionally, I'm concerned that amendment 239 would make it more difficult for Local Authorities to identify children who may not be receiving a suitable full-time education, without having the time that a parent spends educating their child on the registers, how are Local Authorities to know whether the six hours a child spends at a supplementary school in the week as part of their education or their whole education? In relation to amendment 230 5A, what if no parent proclaims responsible Ali Fiddy for the education of the child? Unfortunately we must face the reality that some children in England and Wales are receiving no education at all from their parents or from anybody else.

Where this is the case, how can Local Authorities even begin to intervene if they are missing basic information, such as an up-to-date address for both parents? Turning to amendment 240, 24147 in the name of Lord Lucas, these amendments seek to restrict or remove completely the requirement on parents to provide information on the amount of time their child spends receiving education from individuals other than the parent. I will come back to the point about hours and time raised, I think appropriately, by Lord Lucas and Baroness Morris, in a moment.

But it is important that Local Authorities understand whether there are other persons involved in the education of the child. This, alongside information on how much time a child is educated by their parent, will support the authority to establish whether the education is full-time or not and fulfil their existing duty to identify children missing education. An important point which Lord Storey also brought to our attention. However, I once again

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want to thank... I thank the noble Lady the Minister for giving way. I just Minister for giving way. I just wanted to check whether or not the noble Lady will answer that supplementary questions I asked about whether the department or she about whether the department or she has in her mind a number of hours that make up full-time education that you are trying to get to through this process?

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through this process? That is why I said I was coming to that in a bit. I am coming to it. And I will also answer the other And I will also answer the other point about the annual report as well. However, I want to thank Lord well. However, I want to thank Lord Lucas and other noble Lords for taking the time to meet with my taking the time to meet with my officials to outline in detail their concerns around the nature of the information that we are requesting.

I do understand the concerns not to I do understand the concerns not to limit the wide range of activities that effective home education may that effective home education may well involve. The range of different organisations who might be contributing to it and the burdens that might well be placed. I can that might well be placed. I can reassure noble Lords that I am reflecting on the points that have been raised. Turning now to amendment 253 tabled by Lord Lucas, the amendment seeks to define what constitutes education for the purposes of which activities parents must provide information on the registers.

I anticipate the noble Lord has brought this amendment to reduce parental burden but it will do the reverse. It will bring a broad list of activities into scope of the duty to provide information is any activity that results in the child learning would be classed as education is not the policy intention that registers will need to contain information on such a wide range of activities. The accepted definition of education is that it should contain elements of supervision and instruction that works towards defined objectives.

works towards defined objectives. By case law. I recognise noble Lords are concerned about the burden of the duty to provide information on a child's education provision places on parents and Local Authorities. We will ensure that those burdens are kept as low as possible. Parents will not be required to give details on non-educational activities, for example. We will outline this in detail in statutory guidance and consult about the details of it. Turning to amendments 243 and 249 , and 254B, tabled by Lord Crisp.

These amendments seek to place limitations on the providers that parents must provide information on. They set a threshold so parents only need to provide information on those organisations that offer more than six or 10 hours of education a week or that educate their child during the school day or one-off all largely social or recreational activities. While I appreciate these amendments are seeking to reduce burdens on parents, the exemptions could potentially leave large gaps in the overall picture of a child's education.

Particularly true if a child is attending multiple providers or does not follow the school timetable. In relation to amendment 245, B, we will make clear in statutory guidance that parents will not be expected to give details of noneducational activities for the The questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, on why this isn't defined, I think actually, this question of course has been partly answered by my noble friend, Baroness Morris, who I think rightly identifies that the definition of identifies that the definition of education that we use in formal schooling, is sometimes almost by definition, not the form of education but those who have chosen to educate those children outside the school and will want to pursue.

I hope the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, doesn't think USA is the question doesn't think USA is the question but it is precisely -- Doesn't think I am trying to evade the question but it is complicated. What we have said about suitable education is firstly, it will vary for each child, given their age, ability, attitude, whether the child has a special educational need or disability. As such, each individual assessment must rest on a balance of inevitable factors, given its child, there are no specific legal requirements as to the content of home education, provided that the parents are meeting their duty in section 7 of the Education Act 1996.

That means that education does need to include any particular subjects. It doesn't need to have any reference to the National Curriculum, there is no requirement to enter children for public examinations, there is no obligation to follow the school day, or to have holidays, we should actually have caused part of the reason why the point made by the noble Lady, Baroness Barran, about not understanding what it happening on weekends and in what is traditionally considered school holiday time, for children that are home educated.

So, in order to be able to make an assessment based on a whole range of issues that will be brought into consideration, local authorities will need the sort of basic information about what is being provided, that is set out in legislation. Although, I do also legislation. Although, I do also take the point that it will not be a case of simply adding up the numbers of hours being provided. It will be much more nuanced and careful than that, in terms of determining whether the education is suitable.

But in terms of the noble Lord's suggestion in regard to collecting less information via annual report, I know some home educators to provide detailed reports are local authorities on the content of their child's education. Which will include details of provided they may be using, but those reports are not legal requirements. And just to come back to the point made by the noble back to the point made by the noble Lord Crisp on this, local authorities who have a duty to find out whether the education being provided is suitable.

Many do this through asking foreign annual report, but that -- Asking for an annual report but that is not something that is a requirement of parents. Parents can evidence for the suitability of the education they are providing, in different ways. Authorities that received very detailed reports about a child's education also of course may still have limited visibility on where they are being educated and who is providing the education. Some parents will choose not to provide an annual report, but instead, provide information as to the content of their child's education through a visit, phone call, or other method.

I do not think, from the theme, from the point being made by noble Lords about burdens, that they are suggesting that we should move further, to mandate an annual move further, to mandate an annual Turning to amendment 244, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham and amendments to 45 and 246, tabled by Lord Lucas, which attempt to exempt parents from needing to provide the information, such as home addresses, the required information will only include the provider's name and address, where the education is taking place.

The personal address of a provider would only be required to be recorded if there is no business address, or the person providing the education was doing so from a private address. Whether there is education taking place from an online provider, parents can provide an email address or website. Some form of identifiable information is needed, so local authorities can determine which education providers are supplying or supplementing the child's education. Local authorities will also need contact details, to exercise their power to request information from providers that fall within the scope of the new duty outlined at section 436 that fall within the scope of the new duty outlined at section 436ED.

Turning now to amendment 248, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wei, and amendment 264, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, to Stomach time records are registered as perspective. Notwithstanding what I have said about ours and the nature of time used in home education. At not having some guidance would lead to inconsistencies across registers. The onus would be on parents and individual local authorities to determine how they define or estimate time, which would lead to reporting differences, and discrepancies. It would make it difficult for the Secretary of State to take a holistic view of the education taking place on national and local levels and identify where support and policy development would be most effectively focused.

Turning to amendment 250, tabled by my noble friend, Lady Whitaker, and amendments to hundred 51 and 250 7A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, these concern information at local authorities should be required to record on their registers and parents required to provide. I agree that information such as a families reasons for home education, or whether an eligible child a young carer, our important context for the local authority to context for the local authority to have, this information could reveal whether a child needs particular support or is likely to be missing education, for example.

It could also be used to identify with improvements I needed another part of the education system, as noble Lords have identified. I do think there are some very important broader points made in the debate about support for young carers, some of which are outwith the remit of this particular bell. -- Particular bill, but I think noble Lords will recognise the important case being made for maintaining and improving support for young carers. The point here is whether but not these bits of information should be mandated through the amendments in the way in which they are.

My noble friend, Baroness Whitaker, seeks to require local authorities to include the reasons why a parent of a child has chosen to home educate. I know that

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she is aware... I apologise for interrupting my

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I apologise for interrupting my noble friend in her answer. My amendment actually said that schools amendment actually said that schools should get this information so that

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should get this information so that they should learn and educate children better. Of course, some local authorities, but schools as well. I do understand the point made by

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I do understand the point made by my noble friend. And I think when children's parents ask for their child to be taken off the role of a school, which of course is school, which of course is school, which of course is absolutely the right, and the school should do that, they should also, as my noble friend says, reflect on the my noble friend says, reflect on the reasons why the child is, the reasons why the child is, the parents are wanting to home educate that child.

More broadly, in policy terms, will be to reflect on points made by my noble friend and others, made by my noble friend and others, about where the reason is less a positive decision about home positive decision about home education and more aware it is a concern about provision for children, whether with special children, whether with special educational needs or otherwise. I think my noble friend is aware that the department already collects information on reasons for home education, but as she has highlighted, there are gaps in the data.

That is what the bill already allows for this information to be prescribed for inclusion. For example, recording whether a child is a young carer could be prescribed is a young carer could be prescribed , setting the child's needs in interactions with the local authority, and if proscribed, local authorities will need to record this information, if I have it, or can reasonably obtain it. And we will consult on the content of these regulations, and they will be subject to the affirmative parliamentary procedure and I hope this will help to ensure the information prescribed for inclusion in authority registers is appropriate and useful.

However, it is necessary that the information outlined in the noble Lord, my noble friend's amendments, remains voluntary for parents to provide. Some parents, the reason they have chosen to home educate is deeply personal, requiring it could cause peasants to try to avoid registration altogether, making it more difficult for -- Parents to try to avoid registration altogether making it more difficult for those children who needed. Turning to amendments and 60 and amendments to hundred 61, which in some ways make the reverse arguments being made in the previous two amendments -- Amendment 261, a point also made by the noble Lady Baroness Berridge.

These amendments aim to restrict any further information from being proscribed for inclusion or recorded by local authorities on their registers. Other than that set out on the bill. Just to be clear, the purpose of these powers is to ensure that local authorities are able to include useful information in their registers that is not been explicitly registered in the registration or prescribed through legislation. It will allow that to be recorded. We don't want local authorities presented from making their registers a productive door, due to a lack of flexibility.

-- A productive tool.

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Very briefly, local authorities

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Very briefly, local authorities already have, on page 56, line 32, already have, on page 56, line 32, subsection 3 of the bill, they would have the power in legislation to have the power in legislation to include " Any other information the local authority considers appropriate." My amendment to have appropriate." My amendment to have been 60 limits the power of the Secretary of State to expand it in anyway the Secretary of State seemed anyway the Secretary of State seemed appropriate.

-- Amendment 260.

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appropriate. -- Amendment 260. I will come back to the noble Lady as to whether or not that good provide the flexibility that needs provide the flexibility that needs to be potentially within a baleful to be potentially within a baleful because I think the fear -- Within the bill. Because I think the fear is that, several nobles argued, there are arguments for the there are arguments for the inclusion of information, that could be very helpful for identifying be very helpful for identifying whether a child is receiving a whether a child is receiving a suitable education, and furthermore, what support is possible to provide and should be provided for those and should be provided for those children and we wouldn't want to make the registers, to reduce the usefulness of the registers, due to that lack of flexibility.

But the point here was coming here, too, which I think is an important point, is that it is not the case, or I must stress that, parents are under no obligation to provide any further information, even if local authorities ask for it. I think this has been a point of concern for some parents about the extent to which they will be expected to provide that information. That is not the case, it's simply about how we can, as several noble Lords have rightly argued, how we can ensure that these registers are as effective and useful while being as burdensome as possible, that we are all striving to achieve here.

I hope for the reasons I have outlined, noble Lords will flow able to withdraw their amendments at this point. -- Will feel able.

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I will pick up on a couple of

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I will pick up on a couple of points to noble Baroness me. -- The noble Baroness made. I think this will be a very interesting point.

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Sorry? My Lord, ever so sorry, I don't

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My Lord, ever so sorry, I don't think this is in order. We have heard from the Minister, now it is

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heard from the Minister, now it is for the person who moved their amendment. My Lords, this is committee, you

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My Lords, this is committee, you can have as much back and forward as you wish, this is basic committee rules.

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I am advised it is unusual, my Lords, very unusual. But if the noble Lords will keep his contributions exceptionally great. contributions exceptionally great. -- Exceptionally brief. The noble Lords made an intervention and the Minister during her speech. With Minister during her speech. With pertinent points. It really is another time for noble Lord, Lord Hacking, and your frontbenchers

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green with me. Having been in this House for 30+

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Having been in this House for 30+ years, you listen to the Minister, understand the Minister is saying, and if what the Minister is Satan requires some further questioning, this business of interrupting the Minister in the middle of her speech when you haven't heard the full speech is I agree a relatively modern thing but it is clear the committee of the conversation and committee of the conversation and the place to inflict it is report. This is what committee is, it is not before the Minister sits down, it is I will take the advice of the clerks over lunch, but to make the point here, the noble Baroness and saying she will put things in guidance.

I think it is a good demonstration of what the limitations of the guidance are, can guidance definitively define a term in the bill such as receiving education, which is not defined in the bill in a way that is legally protected? Can guidance go against the terms? The bill says everything must be recorded. The noble Baroness is saying only some stuff needs to be recorded. Is there really the power in guidance to do that? I think otherwise, the structure of the bill needs adjustment.

Secondly, I would encourage her, if she does not want to go the whole way, as Lord Crisp does, at least make it clear, probably in guidance, doing this in an annual report is an option, otherwise this bill is saying it should be done within 15 days.

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This has been a very good debate, as my noble friend recorded in her as my noble friend recorded in her remarks. And it has gone on for now remarks. And it has gone on for now over 1 1/2 hours. I have always been supporting of the register. Lord supporting of the register. Lord Storey was wise to remind us of the Storey was wise to remind us of the large absenteeism of children not receiving any education at all. I receiving any education at all.

I only want to make a request of the only want to make a request of the Minister on two points I am now raising, one is to make a request of the Minister after these very productive discussions we have had productive discussions we have had with her officials and with her colleague, that if we can see before report, and I hope we have persuaded report, and I hope we have persuaded her and her officials, that there are important amendments the government could make following the discussions.

I put in the request discussions. I put in the request discussions. I put in the request that we may see the drafts of those reports, the drafts of those amendments before we go to report. It would be very helpful and it would enable us to know what to do ourselves when we come up to report. The second comment I would like to make on... Arises out of the make on... Arises out of the amendments Lord Young of 251 and Lord Crisp of 254.

We heard earlier replies of the Minister on those two amendments. And the reason for me drawing attention is I think they were both very valuable amendments. And should be given close consideration. The Minister then replied that we could clear it all up in the statutory guidance provided. I have always been rather nervous about leaving things to the guidance notes after the bill because the terms of the bill are those that are under that we have to follow, the nation has to follow.

What is worrying with the statutory guidance, what they are going to say and how they are going to change the application of the bill. That said, I am withdrawing my amendment but thanking more noble Lords for now

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over 1 1/2 hours we have debated. Is it your logic pleasure the

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Is it your logic pleasure the amendment be withdrawn? It is withdrawn. Amendment 237 has already been called in its proper place. Amendment 238, Lord Lucas. Not me. Amendment 238, Lord Lucas. Not me. Baroness Barran. Not me. 240, Lord Baroness Barran. Not me. 240, Lord Lucas, and 241, not me. 242 is being withdrawn. Amendment 243, Baroness Barran. Not moved. And amendments to Barran. Not moved. And amendments to 442248, Lord Lucas, on behalf of the noble Lord, amendment 249, Baroness Barran, not moved.

Amendment 250, Barran, not moved. Amendment 250, , Lord Young, not me. Amendment 252 has been withdrawn. Amendment 253, Lord Lucas? Not moved. And 254 has Lord Lucas? Not moved. And 254 has already been debated. Amendment 254,

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A, not moved. Lord Crisp, not me. I beg to move the House be resumed.

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The question is there has been a resumed. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content." Of the contrary, "Not content." The contents have it.

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contents have it. The question is there has been a resumed. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content." Of the contrary, "Not content." The contents have it.

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contents have it. We will now take a short break in order for the House to be ready for Oral Questions. I beg to move the House do adjourn during pleasure until 2:30.

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until 2:30. The question as the House adjourn until 2:30. As many as are of that until 2:30. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content." Of the contrary, "Not content." The
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None Portrait House Adjoiurned During Pleasure - Until 14:30
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None Portrait Oral questions: Recruitment of young people from lower socio-economic backgrounds to the Civil Service fast stream summer internship programme Baroness Finn (Conservative)
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Lourdes, Lourdes, first Lourdes, first oral Lourdes, first oral question,
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None Portrait Oral questions: Review of public order legislation regarding clarity, efficacy and compliance with fundamental rights and freedoms Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)
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important security issues with the sensitivity of them, and I take the noble Lords point very seriously and noble Lords point very seriously and I will report back to him.
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Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Conservative)
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I beg to move Amendment to 55. It is my intention not to speak to these members but to await what the Minister has to say about them in order to shorten debate. I would like, in view of the conversation if we had questions to reconfirm to noble Lords that under paragraph 431 of the companion, when the house is in committee, there is no restriction on the number of times a member may speak so a member may speak after the Minister.

The Minister may speak during the mover of the groups response to the Minister. The back and forwards may involve as many sessions and ministerial intervention as possible which is completely unnecessary to use the term for the Minister sits down at committee. Committee is a three for all. It is an opportunity to focus on the real issues of the group, and have time to talk them out and get to other issues, even if that takes a certain amount of backwards and forwards.

The great advantage is that noble Lords don't need to speak until they are absolutely sure that the point they want to talk about hasn't been covered by other people and has been answered by the Minister. You can wait to see what the Minister says, and only then, if you feel what you wanted to say has not been said, you can say anything. It is a great technique for focusing debate and shortening group. Which is something that I hope the government will find helpful.

So, I beg to move and look forward to the Ministers response.

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Clause 31 Clause 30 1H 55, leaf outlines 20

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Clause 30 1H 55, leaf outlines 20

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Clause 30 1H 55, leaf outlines 20 My Lords, I rise to speak to this group on the children not in school group on the children not in school register that seeks to look at issues around privacy. The children not in school consultation aim to not in school consultation aim to collate thoughts and views around local authority registers of local authority registers of children not attending school in order to ensure that all children order to ensure that all children receive a positive and beneficial education, regardless of where that education, regardless of where that education might be taking place.

education might be taking place. There were close to 5000 responses predominantly from parents, but also, from both local authorities also, from both local authorities and charities, and the findings will help to weave a gold standard policy help to weave a gold standard policy and guidance which I'm sure all noble Lords wish to be entirely fit noble Lords wish to be entirely fit for purpose. On these specific amendments, it is of course acknowledged that the priority should be to find the right balance between privacy on the one hand and the safety of children that are not well looked after on the other.

I am most grateful to the noble Baroness Lady Barran who has already set out so well his match loyal opposition's view on these issues in the previous groups, so I will not attain your Lordships house by repeating those same arguments. same arguments.
15:23
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Amendments in group for which we have now got to concern certain information which the Secretary of State may describe in the registers is voluntary for parents to provide. This includes information on the child's protected characteristics which commitment to 556 to remove. Current and historic child protection to men and 2566 to remove, current or previous child in need status, the reasons for the child having looked after status on the registers which are moment 2586 to include, and reasons why the child is eligible for inclusion in the register.

Which amendment to 596 to delete. As mentioned in the previous group, the Secretary of State may prescribe in regulation information which the local authority should be required in the registers should they hold it or can reasonably obtain it. The intention is for this additional information to help local authorities to better understand and support children not in school. The Department will consult on the content of regulations following Royal assent. I suggest that the consultation process is the right approach to determine whether there is a case for omitting information or including details such as the reasons why a child looks after status in the registers.

With particular regard to amendment 255, and happy to reassure the noble Lord that the relevant provision is indeed compatible with European to human rights rulings. The memorandum makes this clear. Turning now to amendment 262 as tabled by Lord Lucas, the amendment removes the delegated powerful the Secretary of State and Welsh ministers to prescribe how registers must be maintained. This power is intended to enable Welsh ministers to provide for consistency among local authorities as to how their registers are maintained.

This could include factors such as how and how often registers are checked for accuracy, how to be made, the format, and how registers should be Have a register of children not in school based on their local needs. However, to ensure the accuracy of data and encourage consistency of practices across all areas, the Secretary of State and Welsh ministers must be able to prescribe processes related to upkeep in the future. As mentioned, we will consult on all regulations, all of one of which will then be laid via the affirmative procedure.

I hope for the reasons I have outlined the noble Lord will feel able to

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withdraw his amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the

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amendment. The amendment be withdrawn, the amendment is by leave withdrawn. amendment is by leave withdrawn. Amendments to 56 and 257. Amendment Amendments to 56 and 257. Amendment 257 Amendment 257A. Not move. Amendment 258 and 259, Lord Lucas. Amendment 258 and 259, Lord Lucas. Not moved. I was somewhat Not moved. I was somewhat distracted. Amendments to 60, Baroness Barran, not moved. 261, Baroness Barran, not moved. 261, Lord Cross. Not moved. 262, Lord Lord Cross.

Not moved. 262, Lord Lucas, not moved. 263 has been Lucas, not moved. 263 has been withdrawn. 265 and six, not moved. withdrawn. 265 and six, not moved. withdrawn. 265 and six, not moved. 267, not moved. 268, not moved. 269,
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Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Conservative)
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withdrawn. 270, Lord Lucas. I beg to withdrawn. 270, Lord Lucas. I beg to move amendment to hundred and 70 and to address amendments in this group. to address amendments in this group. Amendment 270 would require a local authority to establish a parental authority to establish a parental advisory board. This seems to me to be a useful structure for ensuring be a useful structure for ensuring that parents and local authorities that parents and local authorities work together. Amendment 278 allows parents to provide information in parents to provide information in their own words.

It may seem a small detail but it is fundamental. The detail but it is fundamental. The High Court affirm that parents own High Court affirm that parents own statement is evidence of provision, but many councils insist on rigid forms that erase the richness of forms that erase the richness of home education. It is really important when looking at the variety of home education that it variety of home education that it can be expressed and not try to be can be expressed and not try to be squashed into a mode of expression which it is not suited to.

Amendment 280 requires that the information request be proportionate and relevant to education. Some councils issue elder for demands, daily lesson plans, samples of child generated independent work. This really comes into part of being able to demonstrate to local authorities what good practice is as we will discuss in later groups to work towards that. Amendment 281 introduces the word substantial to provide. Councils may well request relevant minutiae under the guise of safeguarding, and we all know which counsel they would choose to use as counsel they would choose to use as Amendment to 82 -- 282, I think it's important we look at the burden of parents and on local authorities of the information provision.

My understanding is this is a matter that will be addressed in the guidance. Look forward to that confirmation. Amendment 283 extends the line for registration requests from 15 to 30 days, the same time as allowed to respond to a parking fine. Many families deregister after trauma, bullying or unmet needs or crisis, there's a huge amount to do in the process of transferring to home education. Demanding full compliance in 15 days is not in many circumstances reasonable or humane.

Amendment 284 harmonises the timeframes ensuring predictability at a time when families may be under intense strain. 287 as a safeguard for if a parent doesn't provide information local authorities must not investigate without tribunal or magistrate approval. Again this comes back to making sure we are building up strong relationships between parents and the core authorities, so we don't get into this situation. Amendment 285 asks that families not be penalised merely for non-cooperation. Amendment 380 proposes an independent review of more than 50% of local authority reports are negative, this comes back to how is the DfE going to help bring local authorities up to speed where they dropped behind the performance expected of them.

Amendment 380 proposes an independent review, I said that already. Amendment 382 proposes a home education ombudsman, this is one of the fundamental questions that we have for the government. How are complaints to be dealt with? At the moment they are directed through the Secretary of State. It would be really helpful to have a good understanding of that process, what does it look like, how does it work, what is being asked of the Secretary of State, who actually will provide those functions, how will people be helped to understand what judgements are likely so they don't engage in unnecessary complaints and litigation.

A tribunal of some variety, whether of the government's current design or another, I think is a very important part of the system. Amendment 388 proposes a panel for home educated children, getting children's voices in this I think is important. Both my mother and mother-in-law were home educated, if asked I'm sure both would have chosen to be in school. So I'm all in favour of asking the children, and them having asking the children, and them having a voice in this.

Given that, I beg to move. to move.
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Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Portrait Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)
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Amendment proposed, insert the words as printed on the marshals

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list. I rise to speak to my amendment, I'm sorry I wasn't here earlier today when clause 33 was debated. The Green Party had a very exciting The Green Party had a very exciting morning electing a new leader, and that's where I was. I very much hope that's where I was. I very much hope I'm not going to make a secondary speech, but with so many amendments in this bill it is at times very hard to see the way forward. And to hard to see the way forward.

And to actually follow through a clear line. So I'm going to make a speech, I hope not to make too many more during the course of this bill, during the course of this bill, however many amendments I put down. I declare an interest as a grandmother of three home educated grandmother of three home educated children, all with special educational needs. Two of whom are educational needs. Two of whom are now studying at colleges in Cambridge, the other one making short films about autism. My short films about autism.

My experience tells me that school is not suitable for all children. Not all children can find a suitable school, and you don't need to be wealthy to actually create a very rich educational learning rich educational learning environment out of school. Like many noble Lords I have had quite a lot of emails on this topic, and I sympathise very strongly with parents and grandparents of children with neurodiversity's. Home education can take on a myriad of forms which are far removed from the classroom, but are nonetheless educational, informative and far better suited to neurodiverse minds.

Neurodivergent children are often repeatedly failed by the state school system, but the truth is that every child deserves a tailored education. And parents with the time and inclination to provide their children's education knows that no teacher can possibly have their child's interest as much at heart as they do. And this bill reads as if school is the safest best place for all children to be, that simply isn't true. In fact for many children school is a very hostile environment, and by making home education harder for parents we are discouraging them from doing what is best of their child.

And for many others. Home educators give up their lives to improve the lives of their children, and to ask them now to continuously justify that choice and make that choice even harder by adding bureaucratic hoops and hurdles really isn't in the best interests of these children. You don't have to specifically disallow home education to make it unworkable, and home educators believe this register will place unworkable administrative burdens on families. I also believe there is an inaccurate conflation of home education with a safeguarding risk.

Evidence shows children at risk are usually already known to social services, so home education is not the source of that risk. Subjecting home educators to intrusive monitoring is neither justifiable nor helpful. We need to improve children's social care, and we need to support action not just documentation for those children who are at risk. We don't need yet another diversion targeting huge swathes of decent people and leaving those in real need ignored. Setting up a register for children whose parents are not doing anything illegal or dangerous, requiring the collection of a significant volume of personal sensitive and often impractical information is not good.

We should be supporting parents not criminalising them.
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Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
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I briefly want to speak to a few of the amendments. Firstly, on amendment 270. I think this is something that should be considered, and it actually happens with one local authority gets together home educators to share good practice and their experiences. I don't think it should be statutory, because it requires considerable organisation in terms of local authorities. But if home educators in a particular area working with a local authority wanted to do this I wouldn't be opposed.

It might happen formally or informally, but it should not be statutory. Equally, I also think that on the issue of voice of the child, perhaps the voice of the student, I think that is really important. One of the concerns I've always had with home education is not just about education, it's about socialising. And if you are home educated you have to work very hard at ensuring that the children and young people have that really important socialising that children need.

But again, I think this is something that could happen organically, it could happen informally. But it is not a thing we should just ignore, it can't be statutory. I think again on amendment 280, I think most local authorities would want to have the information. I don't see a situation where unless there was cause, as is set in the amendment, where local authorities would want very much to get that information on one particular occasion and that is it, done and dusted for that period of

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time. My Lords, the noble Lord Lucas raised concerns about parental and raised concerns about parental and child involvement at both a national and local level. It is of course important that local authorities do indeed consult with home educating parents, but His Majesty's loyal opposition is of the view that the establishment of a parental advisory board on the face of the bill is board on the face of the bill is potentially unnecessary, as suggested in amendment 270.

Or in relation to a children's board, as suggested in amendment 388. Moving suggested in amendment 388. Moving on to amendment 380. We want local authorities to be targeted in their authorities to be targeted in their investigations, and focus on those children who are not receiving an appropriate best in class education. They may be at risk, and we would therefore find it challenging to therefore find it challenging to support this particular amendment. On the other hand, an appeals process as suggested in amendment 382 may work well.

We look forward 382 may work well. We look forward to hearing the Ministers response on that particular amendment. It is frequently said that constructive challenge and laser focused scrutiny are the hallmarks of your Lordship's House. But when presented with an eminently sensible amendment, whose benefits have already been eloquently put by the noble Baroness Lady Jones, there is no requirement to go over them again. The other amendments in this group, which seek clarity on the frequency of responding to local authority requests for information, are understandable.

Home educating parents may have concerns on this, and they are also likely to be spinning many plates already. The amendments are self-explanatory. We look forward to the response from

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the noble Baroness the Minister. I'm somewhat disappointed that
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Lord Hacking Portrait Lord Hacking (Labour)
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I'm somewhat disappointed that there hasn't been support so far to the amendment of Baroness Lawrence, -- Baroness stones, and amendment in which I join her. This is an important amendment and I would explain to your Lordships why it is so important. The provisions say it is basically to remove the provisions in 403 six -- 430 6B, the purpose is to ask the Minister to think again about it. These are the provisions that put under requirement of 15 days for all parents who either need to provide the initial information under 430 6C, name and home address of each parent, and also a lot of very detailed information about the home educators who will be doing the home educating of their children.

And if a parent is in breach of providing either the initial information, or any changes to the initial any changes to the initial information, they are then guilty of breaches of 436, D. The further consequence if they are in breach of 436, D, this is unfair and far too harsh on ordinary parents who are trying to do an ordinary job of homeschooling. I would ask the noble friend the Minister to think again about those provisions.

They are putting almost the schooling parent into a criminal capacity. That is just wrong. So I would be very grateful if my noble friend the Minister would think again about all those penalties. And remember, when those penalties. And remember, when you go to little E, there's a lot of detailed information provided for the Sunday schools the child is going to, evening classes for physical exercise and so forth. And there can easily be changes, there's a new gym mistress for the evening of physical education, or there's a new preacher at the Sunday school.

So they are very detailed matters, and it doesn't matter about the detail, the obligation is for the parent to provide the details of the change and provide that detail of change within 15 days. This is just change within 15 days. This is just

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I haven't spoken much at this stage of the bill, but having heard the noble Lady and Lord Hacking, I
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Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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As I've said previously, the duty on parents to give information for children not in school registers is key to their operation. Information on where the child is being educated is vital in order to identify cases of potentially unsuitable or unsafe education, and the amendments in group 5 concern this requirement for parents to give information, and also how local authorities must act in a transparent manner towards families in their area, but turning to amendment 277 in the name of the noble Baroness of Wiveliscombe, this effectively seeks to remove the requirement, and on the broader points that the noble Baroness made about homeschooling, I believe, had she been able to be here this morning, I completely understand why she might want to celebrate her new leader, but I recognise that she has a new leader, but had she been here, she would have heard important comments from myself and others on the support that exists within the English and Welsh education system, precisely for parents to home educate, and the reiteration by this government that there is no intention in this legislation to remove that right.

In fact, what there is this an intention to provide additional recognition and support whilst also ensuring that local authorities are able to carry out their functions by knowing where children are being educated in school. And I hope she will read my comment from this morning about that. Without a requirement on home educating parents to register with the local authority, the authority cannot be assured that they have filled their education duties towards children living in their areas.

This is an absolutely crucial component for the success of the registers, and if I can just bring my noble friend back to the point I made this morning, I was completely clear in one of my contributions that it is not the case that failing to provide information to a register would lead directly to parents having to face fines and penalties, and I hope that my noble friend will reread that to provide some assurance around that particular point that was made.

I recognise that there are those Voluntary Registers, but This Is Not the Case for All Because There Is Currently No Legal Requirement for Parents to Take Local Authorities That They Are Home Educated. Without Putting This Duty on Parents, Local Authorities Will Have No Assurance That They Have Identified Children Not in School in the Area. As I Previously Mentioned, the Duty on Parents to Give Information to Registers Is Separate but Complementary to the Annual Reports That Some Parents Submit to Local Authorities for the Purposes of Providing In-Depth Information As to Their Child's Information.

In Terms of Parents Giving Detailed Information As to the Child's Learning Objectives and Progress Towards These, We Want Parents to Have Flexibility to Submit Information in a Way That Works Best for Them and for the Elective Home Education Officer. However, for the Basic Information Such As Where the Child Is Being Educated and by Whom, It Is Essential That There Is a Level of Consistency in How This Is Submitted, Collected and Maintained. Parents of Home Educated Children in Almost All Other Western Countries Must, As a Minimum, Provide Details for a Register.

Children in England and Deserve the Same Level of Assurance. Turning Now to Amendment 278 Which Seeks to Allow Parents to See the Required Information in Their Own Words. I Appreciate How This Would Afford Some Flexibility to Parents, However, There Needs to Be Consistency Which Is Why We Are Seeking a Delegated Powers for the Secretary Of State to Prescribe How Local Authorities Maintain and Keep Their Registers, Including the Use of a Prescribed Registration Form. We Will Ensure This Form Is Accessible and Accessible for Families to Use.

Turning to Amendments to 80, 282 and 285, Tabled by the Noble Lord, These Amendments Seek to Restrict the Duty on Parents to Provide Information and local authorities to request information by imposing a time information by imposing a time limit. In 280 request information and impose a reasonable cause to suspect harm thresholds for further engagement. Amendment 282 provides a similar threshold so that parents will not have to provide intervention more than once every 12 months, and it goes further by introducing £5000 asking for introducing £5000 asking for information.

12 months will be too long a period for local authority to be unaware of the change to a registered child's education provision or personal circumstances. Education concerns can arise at any concern and local authorities must remain the ability to act proportionately to meet the safeguarding threshold. This risk inflating safeguarding with a separate duty to ensure a child is receiving a suitable education. Turning to amendments to a three and Turning to amendments to a three and 284, tabled by Lord Lucas which seek to seek alternative deadlines, we are keen that the length of time to respond is proportionate and balances the needs of the family which is why the bill allows the discretion to extend the timeframe for information.

This discretion could be used by local authorities
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