International Freedom of Religion or Belief Bill
Wednesday 24th April 2024
(7 months, 4 weeks ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief Bill 2023-24 View all Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 24 April 2024 - (24 Apr 2024)
The Chair
Good morning. Before we begin, I have a few preliminary reminders for the Committee. First, please switch electronic devices to silent if you have not done so already. No food or drink is permitted during sittings of the Committee, except for the water provided. Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members would email their speaking notes, if they have any, to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. My selection and grouping list for today’s meeting is available online and in the room. There will be a single debate on all clauses and amendments.
Clause 1
Special Envoy for International Freedom of Religion or Belief
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause 2 stand part.
Amendment 3, in clause 3, page 2, line 8, leave out
“International Freedom of Religion or Belief Act 2023”,
and insert
“Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief Act 2024”.
This amendment adjusts the Bill’s short title so that it refers specifically to the special envoy.
Clause 3 stand part.
New clause 1—Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief—
“(1) There continues to be a special envoy called the Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief.
(2) The special envoy is to be appointed by, and may be removed from office at any time by, a Minister of the Crown.
(3) The special envoy must act with a view to—
(a) promoting freedom of religion or belief abroad, in particular by working with the government of the United Kingdom, with other governments and their representatives (including special envoys), and with organisations outside government;
(b) raising awareness of cases in which people abroad are persecuted or discriminated against on the grounds of religion or belief and advocating for the rights of such people.
(4) The special envoy must from time to time give a report about their work to the Prime Minister.
(5) A Minister of the Crown may give the special envoy directions about the exercise of their functions.
(6) A Minister of the Crown—
(a) must provide the special envoy with such staff, accommodation, equipment and other facilities as the Minister considers necessary for the carrying out of the special envoy’s functions;
(b) may pay allowances or other payments to or in respect of the special envoy.
(7) The special envoy’s functions are exercisable on behalf of the Crown.”
This new clause is intended to replace clauses 1 and 2. It includes largely the same material as those clauses but with several drafting and clarity-related changes.
Amendment 4, in title, line 1, leave out from beginning to end of line 3 and insert
“require the continued appointment of a special envoy for freedom of religion or belief and make provision about the special envoy’s functions.”
This amendment adjusts the Bill’s long title to reflect its contents more clearly. It is consequential on NC1.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
It is a particular pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham.
Before I start, may I pay tribute to our former colleague, the former hon. Member for Birkenhead, Frank Field, who died yesterday? He was a courteous gentleman of integrity and independent mind, and has already been much missed in this place. We worked together on a number of issues, notably on the lengthy passage of the Modern Slavery Act 2015, and I was privileged to take up his role as canon of Chester cathedral when he was obliged to relinquish it.
Frank had friends across the House, and that is not irrelevant today. So does this Bill. It is supported by colleagues from every political party; indeed, I do not know of a Member who opposes it, and I hope not to discover one today. I thank all colleagues who have turned up this morning to support the Bill. The hon. Member for Newport West is supportive and wanted to be present, but family illness prevents her.
I am delighted to speak to new clause 1, which replaces clauses 1 and 2. With the agreement of the Committee, clauses 1 and 2 will not stand part of the Bill. To clarify, if colleagues support the Bill, as I hope they will, I ask them—somewhat counterintuitively—to shout “No” when we come to the first two decisions. I thank Sir Graham for suggesting that I clarify that. The original clauses 1 and 2 as drafted will thereby not stand part of the Bill, and what replaces them will become the Bill going forward.
The Bill is a shared enterprise. There has been a cross-party effort over many years for the fundamental and universal human right of freedom of religion or belief to be taken seriously, and for article 18 not to be “an orphaned right”, as the inaugural report of the all-party parliamentary group for international freedom of religion or belief report put it as long ago as 2012. Having the Prime Minister’s special envoy as a permanent fixture in statute will embed the progress that has been made, and make the UK a global leader on freedom of religion or belief, or FORB. It would also fulfil the Government’s manifesto commitment to fully implement the Truro review.
The object of the Bill is international freedom of religion or belief, but its subject is, of course, the Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion or belief. It puts the role on a statutory footing. Amendment 3, which is in my name, therefore adjusts the Bill’s short title so that it refers specifically to the role. Amendment 4, which is in my name, provides explicitly for the continuation in legislation of the role of the Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom or religion or belief.
As the Committee will appreciate as much as I do, there is already such a role, which I have had the privilege of undertaking for over three years now, as the third incumbent. This short piece of legislation does not seek to create anything new, but gives the role the permanence proposed by recommendation 6 of the landmark review by the Bishop of Truro of the Foreign Office’s response to the persecution of Christians.
I pay particular tribute to the noble Lord the Bishop of Winchester, who was previously the Bishop of Truro, for taking up with such gusto the challenge of the then Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), who commissioned the review. He has continued to pay a keen interest in the progress of the recommendations. As my right hon. Friend mentioned recently, the bishop’s continuing and passionate engagement on the issue has helped put FORB into the mainstream, as well as, I hope, into statute.
The Bill, if approved, provides for the continuation of the role of Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion or belief. I will set out for the record the wording of my mandate in this role from 2020, as published and still remaining on the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office website:
“The Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief: brings together UK efforts to promote religious tolerance abroad, and works on how the UK government can protect and promote this fundamental freedom internationally;
works with the members of the International Religious Freedom or Belief Alliance to raise awareness of cases of particular concern, advocating for the rights of people worldwide who are discriminated against or persecuted for their faith or belief:
supports implementing the Bishop of Truro’s recommendations on Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office (FCDO) support for persecuted Christians around the world.
The Prime Minister’s Special Envoy undertakes these activities on behalf of, and reports to, the Prime Minister.”
I also confirm that I have always, in fulfilling this role, sought to advocate for and support all those persecuted or discriminated against, of whatever faith or belief, as I know have so many in this Committee Room today. Indeed, the support for that work is remarkable. The all-party parliamentary group for international FORB has on record over 170 Members of the Commons and the Lords, which I believe makes it the largest APPG on record.
Fiona Bruce
I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is the chair of the all-party group, for correcting me. There are 174 members. He also gives me an opportunity to thank him for his remarkably committed work on the issue. Barely a day goes by where he is not speaking in the House on it or diligently undertaking some other meeting, task or work to promote freedom of religion or belief. We are very fortunate to have his passionate enthusiasm on this issue in the House.
Fiona Bruce
New clause 1 reflects the continuance of a role that has the title of the Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion or belief. That is significant. As I know from my travels across the world, it provides the appropriate authority internationally to advocate on behalf of the UK, and, in this country, to hold the FCDO to account on how it is protecting and promoting this fundamental human right.
New clause 1 reflects the purposes, which I have just quoted, of the Prime Minister’s special envoy, which were also set out in the original clause 1. New clause 1(4) reflects the original clause in saying that the special envoy must report to the Prime Minister, which provides for the direct accountability of the role.
In terms of technical changes, it is almost unprecedented for the Prime Minister to be referenced in legislation. While it is recognised that it is the Prime Minister who does and will appoint their special envoy, the legislative description required is “a Minister of the Crown”. When it comes to the practical resourcing of the Prime Minister’s special envoy’s office and travel expenditure, it makes sense for that to be flexibly handled by the relevant Minister of the Crown.
Further, the other drafting change from the original Bill is to avoid the ambiguity of the creation of a separate —that is, a new—office, distinct from the current office of the Prime Minister’s special envoy, which I have within the FCDO. Accordingly, subsection (6) of new clause 1 gives provision for the resourcing of the office of the Prime Minister’s special envoy and for fulfilling the purposes set out in subsection (3).
I thank the Minister for her presence today and note, with thanks, her fulsome response in the House to the Bill’s money resolution earlier this week, in which she said that she was
“absolutely committed…to providing the support services to enable the role to continue for as long as it can.”—[Official Report, 22 April 2024; Vol. 748, c. 698.]
I trust the Minister will join me today in ensuring that the office of the Prime Minister’s special envoy will continue to be staffed by at least the two current positions of a private secretary and an assistant private secretary. The role and its relevance across every country of the world—apart from the UK, which is covered by a faith Minister—means it is a demanding one that requires resources. It involves working with countries that actively support article 18 of the 1948 universal declaration of human rights, notably through the alliance I mentioned earlier that now comprises 43 countries; working with those on a journey towards that support; or challenging those countries that, regrettably, do not support it. In reality, the staff level currently enjoyed by the role is the absolute minimum required.
My role has also received support from my parliamentary office and, in particular, the support of the Prime Minister’s deputy special envoy, David Burrowes, whose significant time is not funded by the FCDO. Indeed, I want to put on record my profound appreciation for all David has done throughout my holding of the role, for his consistently wise and calm advice and for his considerable support of the drafting and passage to date of the Bill, without which fulfilling the role would not have been possible. I am deeply indebted to him.
If colleagues will indulge my gratitude just a little longer before I close, I wish to put on record my thanks to the Deputy Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) and the noble Lord Ahmad for their strong support for the Bill. I also want to thank the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary for their personal and wholehearted support for my role and for the Bill. As the Foreign Secretary, the noble Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton, said in the other place on 5 March:
“A Bill is being passed through the other place, and will, hopefully, come here, which will put that on a statutory footing. That would be the first time one of those envoy roles would be treated in that way, and that is quite right.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 5 March 2024; Vol. 836, c. 1547.]
He also said on 16 April:
“I very much agree with the Bill. In fact, I insisted that it went forward with government support…That reflects the importance that we in this Government and in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office attach to celebrating freedom of religious belief.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 April 2024; Vol. 837, c. 871.]
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
I have two questions to ask, but I want to start by honouring the right hon. Frank Field. It was a shock today. I know that he was much driven by his faith. I think we all feel his loss.
I also hugely congratulate the hon. Member for Congleton. She has done an amazing job in this role and we should all be proud of the conference she organised a few years ago. Bringing forward the Bill and putting the role on a permanent footing is something we all welcome.
That leads me to my two questions, which I hope can receive a response. First, religious persecution is widespread worldwide and it seems it is only getting worse. A Christian is killed every two hours somewhere in the world, antisemitism is on the rise, we see Uyghur and Rohingya Muslims being systematically persecuted, and in Iran followers of the Baha’i faith are victims of what Human Rights Watch has called “crimes against humanity”. I am interested in how the role of the special envoy could raise concerns, particularly within the FCDO, about persecution and discrimination and therefore try to prevent atrocities in future.
My second point was also raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) on Second Reading. She asked how the Bill would
“balance the other rights that may occasionally collide with this question of a special envoy for freedom of religion or belief?”—[Official Report, 26 January 2024; Vol. 744, c. 572.]
She gave the example of the rights of women and girls, particularly thinking about reproductive rights. Similarly, there are concerns about the message the Bill may send to the LGBT+ community around the world. I therefore seek reassurance on how the Bill will ensure, when rights potentially collide or create tensions, that a hierarchy is not created by placing the rights of one group ahead of the other.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)
I shall be brief. As the Member with the privilege of speaking on behalf of the Church of England in this place, I want to put on record the Church of England’s very strong support for this Bill and what it will do to protect the ability of people to practise their Christian faith around the world, but also to protect those of every faith, whether they are Jewish, Muslim or of any other faith, or of no faith and are persecuted. This Bill really matters because the situation globally has never been so bad and it continues to worsen. Those of us with the immense freedom to practise our faith or not practise any faith, as we enjoy in this country, have an absolute duty to speak out and give this Bill our wholehearted support.
Jim Shannon
I commend the hon. Member for Congleton on promoting this Bill. The glory will not be to her, but to the one that she serves and that we all serve.
I want to make a couple of quick comments. I am minded of the history of this, which the hon. Lady and others present will be aware of as well. Baroness Berridge approached me back in 2012 to ask whether I would consider starting an APPG on freedom of religion or belief with her. I was very happy to do so. It was on her heart and my heart as well. At that time, it was in the hearts of about 25 or 30 other MPs. It very clearly grew from that to be in the hearts of 174 Members of the House of Commons and the House of Lords. It is important that the issue has been brought forward.
This issue has captured the attention of those of all political parties, political opinions and religious beliefs? I speak at the APPG for those with Christian faith, but I also speak up for those with other faiths and those with no faith, because I believe sincerely and in my heart—the hon. Member for Congleton believes it as well—that we will be a voice for those across the world whose human rights are being suppressed and who are being subjugated and persecuted. The hon. Lady and I have spoken up on the persecution of Christians across the middle east, Pakistan and India, of Sikhs in Pakistan and India, of Hindus in Pakistan, of Muslims in India, of the Myanmar Muslims, of the Uyghurs, and of others across the world. These are all groups of people that this special envoy that the hon. Lady is promoting will be speaking up for.
I will say two things in conclusion. Last week, we had a special event at which we highlighted the issue of those in Pakistan who are being persecuted. We had a number of groups at a committee: Muslims in particular but also Christians, Sikhs and Hindus who are subjected to persecution in that country. Just yesterday, we had Nigeria, whose case is particularly worrying. Some 5,000 Christians have been murdered in the past year, and there have been abductions as well—five times more than there were even in 2020. Hundreds have been kidnapped. What about the 87 small schoolchildren—those young girls? Two hundred and fifty were kidnapped, but 87 have still never been returned. Those are the things that the Prime Minister’s special envoy will hopefully deal with, whether that is the hon. Member for Congleton or someone else in the future. It is really important that we speak up for those people across the world. I had not intended to speak, Sir Graham; I have just written some scribbles down on a bit of paper—if you saw my writing, you would understand it is extremely difficult to interpret at a later stage.
I believe in my heart, as does the hon. Lady and others hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, that our God is a great God—he is a God of love. The role of special envoy is a burden on the hon. Lady’s heart. I believe that others in the Committee have the same burden and will want to see the role of special envoy in place, and I very much look forward to its endorsement.
The hard work of the hon. Lady has pushed the role of special envoy forward, and I know that we all love that work and love her for what she does. Through the special envoy, we speak up on behalf of all those across the world who have a religious belief and suffer from human rights suppression or persecution. This role that the hon. Lady has put forward gives us the opportunity to be a spokesperson for those people. I look forward to all contributions; we are brought together and united in trying to achieve that goal. I especially thank the Minister and the Government in advance for what they have done, because they have recognised its importance.
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)
Like many colleagues, I rise to support this Bill wholeheartedly and to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton for the dedication she has shown in the role. It is extremely important that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office supports this role—as it does—and I thank the Minister in advance as well. This role is exemplary, and people contact me from many different countries to commend the work that is being done, such as those who have been persecuted and those whose families have been persecuted. I think that it places the UK in a real leadership position in upholding article 18 of the UN charter, and it is very important internationally.
We were fortunate that my hon. Friend came to East Kilbride when she did a tour of different areas of the United Kingdom. It is one of the most memorable events that I have had the privilege to hold in my constituency. Many different faith groups came to that meeting and many people of all different faiths, as well as those of no faith, spoke with her about the importance of the role. It is an internationally important role, but we should also remember that it means so much to people in our constituencies across the United Kingdom. Those who attended that meeting in East Kilbride, at which we were privileged to host the Prime Minister’s special envoy, have given me their very best wishes for the Bill’s progress today and for the work that my hon. Friend does.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham, and to be here in this Public Bill Committee, given that I was pleased to support the hon. Member for Congleton on Second Reading in one of our Friday debates on private Members’ Bills. Few people know that although some of those Bills come out of the ballot, there is an opportunity immediately after the ballot, and the hon. Lady was prepared to sleep in a tent on the third floor to ensure that she was first through the door to secure this opportunity—and she was. We are grateful to her for doing so.
Regarding the Bill, it is odd in parliamentary terms to walk into a Committee knowing that I support the Bill, that this process will completely change the Bill by removing the two substantive clauses and replacing them with a new clause, and that we will leave with the Bill still having gained unanimous support, because it is the essence of what the hon. Lady is trying to achieve through the Bill that we support. As the Democratic Unionist party’s leader in Parliament now, I wanted to be here to place on record not only our support for the Bill but our personal appreciation of the hon. Lady for the steadfast and committed way in which she has approached the issues that we are discussing over many years.
I know that the creation of a legislative underpinning for the Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion or belief was a Conservative party manifesto—a commitment of this Government. I am sorry that we have had to enter the last Session of this Parliament before we have taken the strong opportunity to finally land that legislative commitment.
The essence of the hon. Lady is that she has never made this process about herself. It is not about securing a role that she currently holds. It is about sustaining the role for future generations to impact all those who benefit from having a singular advocate in this Parliament to act on our collective behalf and on our country’s behalf to speak up for all those internationally who need that. I have reflected on many occasions that the hon. Lady is small in stature but mighty in her passion and her determination, and in the faith that underpins her drive in this regard.
My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford, who chairs the all-party parliamentary group on international freedom of religion or belief, and I am delighted, on behalf of our party, to give our full-throated support and our prayerful endeavours for the hon. Lady regarding this legislative process, which I trust will have a successful and profitable conclusion. It will be the enshrinement of a role that we all benefit from.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton is a truly honourable Member of this House. She has shown courage and determination to stand up for freedom of religion, freedom of belief and freedom of speech, not only in this country but throughout the world. She has shown the vital importance of maintaining this role as a UK prime ministerial appointment and I am proud to serve on this Committee to give her my support for her Bill today.
Throughout history, the United Kingdom has been a champion of freedom: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of worship and freedom to choose one’s own way of life. Throughout the Commonwealth, there is much work to be done. There are many countries that may have inherited our ancestry, our history and our heritage but they have not necessarily followed through in the way that they apply their laws. There is much work to be done to uphold those values of freedom, particularly freedom of religion. That is why the role should be permanent and why, from now on, all Prime Ministers should appoint someone to the role, so that there is always a person leading the fight to spread those values of freedom, including freedom of religion and belief, and all the other things that hon. Members have spoken about today.
I give my full support to my hon. Friend and I thank her for her service and her true beliefs. Many Members of this House do not stand for something clear, but I have to say that she is the one person who I have always known to do that.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
I want to make a brief contribution because in the February recess, I accompanied my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton on a visit to Kosovo, where I was travelling as the Prime Minister’s trade envoy. On my previous visits, our ambassadors in Pristina and Tirana had both said that they would welcome a visit from the special envoy, so that they could show her how the faith communities are working well together in those two countries, although of course, in the wider western Balkans, there are tensions because of ethnicity and religion.
As I say, I travelled to Kosovo in February as the trade envoy and my hon. Friend travelled as the faith envoy. We were welcomed by people from the President and the Prime Minister downwards and it was evident that they welcomed the opportunity to engage with someone who held that position. While we were there, my hon. Friend made some useful contacts and is working on staging a conference in Pristina later this year, which will enhance the relationship between our two countries and, more importantly, between the various faith communities. Having seen her in action, I am delighted to be able to support the Bill.
Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
I am honoured to be part of the Committee and to be able to congratulate my friend, the hon. Member for Congleton. As other hon. Members have said, we are saddened today by the death of our colleague Lord Field of Birkenhead. I am sure there will be many tributes, and we are grateful for what has been said this morning. We will remember him and his family.
That sadness aside, this is a great morning for the hon. Lady because of all her work, as has already been said. Learning that she slept in a tent in the corridor to bring the Bill forward shows there are no bounds to her tenacity—I hope she had a comfortable night. It was well worth it, however, and we are grateful that she could bring forward the Bill and embody this role, as proposed by the Truro review. As all hon. Members have expressed, the Bill is important for people to recognise that our country feels that, in the world we live in today, the expression of freedom of religion and free speech are important, as we try to bring peace to our world.
On the questions put by my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham, I echo the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) who spoke on Second Reading. In supporting the Bill, I would like to stress what she said then, referring to the shadow Foreign Secretary:
“In his role and during these meetings, he has made it clear that Labour will ensure that the UK stands against persecution and oppression in any form, and will promote freedom of religion or belief as a key component of our foreign policy”—[Official Report, 26 January 2024; Vol. 744, c. 571.]
in future, should we form a Government.
With that, I again congratulate the hon. Member for Congleton and wish her well as she continues in her role. We are thankful for what she has done on the world stage for Parliament and the UK.
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
It is an absolute pleasure to be serving under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I must begin by putting on record my tribute to Frank Field. I had some limited interaction with him, and I know that he would be proud of my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton for all the work she has done in this space.
I do not think I have ever been in a debate where there has been so much approval for a piece of legislation or so much love—the word was used by an hon. Member —for a Member. I put on record my thanks for all the considered contributions and I join hon. Members in their gratitude to my hon. Friend for her leadership. It has taken some time for her to reach this place, but she is dedicated—I had not realised it stretched as far as sleeping in a tent. I put on the record my thanks to her and, of course, to David Burrowes, who was able to get his sister access to me on Saturday to ensure that I did everything I could to keep my hon. Friend happy, which is indeed my job.
When it comes to protecting people who are persecuted for their faith, my hon. Friend and I go way back. We worked on tackling the persecution of Christians in Pakistan and other countries, and of course the persecution of the Uyghur by the Chinese Communist party, so I am incredibly pleased to help the progress of this Bill. We have all expressed our gratitude to my hon. Friend, the current special envoy for freedom of religion or belief, and I pay tribute to her for the work she has done. She will be leaving behind a legacy, which is very rare for a parliamentarian.
I now turn to the Bill. Clause 1 requires the Prime Minister to appoint a special envoy for international freedom of religion or belief. Establishing that role permanently and in perpetuity was a recommendation in the Bishop of Truro’s 2019 independent review into the work of the FCDO and the freedom of religion or belief, and our 2019 manifesto committed to its implementation. The clause also sets out the duties of the special envoy and requires them to report periodically to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister will determine the terms and conditions of the appointment.
Clause 2 requires the Prime Minister to establish an office of the special envoy to support the work of the special envoy. Clause 3(1) provides that the Bill will come into force on the day it is passed, and clause 3(2) provides that it will extend to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
New clause 1(1) provides that:
“There continues to be a special envoy called the Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief.”
Ensuring that the role continues to be known as the Prime Minister’s special envoy will mean that it maintains its international authority and recognition, as hon. Members have said. The new clause also seeks to reduce the statutory duty on the Prime Minister to appoint and provide resources to the special envoy; the duty is delegated to a Minister of the Crown. That change is essential, as legislation relating to the Prime Minister’s powers is extremely rare and limited, especially where the processes can be dealt with administratively. I thank the special envoy for her understanding on that point.
The new clause also clarifies the duties of the special envoy. It states:
“The special envoy must act with a view to…promoting freedom of religion or belief abroad, in particular by working with the government of the United Kingdom, with other governments and their representatives…and with organisations outside government;…raising awareness of cases in which people abroad are persecuted or discriminated against on the grounds of religion or belief and advocating for the rights of such people.”
Those revised duties reflect the status of the work undertaken by my hon. Friend in her role as special envoy.
My hon. Friend has worked with other special envoys to secure numerous achievements on FORB. Perhaps the most notable of those achievements was her co-hosting of the fourth international ministerial conference on freedom of religion or belief, which brought together Government delegations, faith and belief group leaders, human rights actors and civil society representatives from more than 100 countries to address challenges to the right to FORB. She subsequently hosted a series of roundtables on individual countries, including Nigeria, Pakistan, Iran and Myanmar, which brought together key stakeholders, including embassies and non-governmental organisations, to promote respect for FORB.
I congratulate my hon. Friend on her accomplishments as chair of the International Religious Freedom or Belief Alliance. She was asked to carry out the role of chair for a second time last year—the first time in the organisation’s history that such a request has been made. As chair of the IRFBA, she established a scheme to raise awareness of prisoners of conscience each month, including individuals from Vietnam, Nicaragua, Cuba and Myanmar. In three cases, individuals were subsequently released, which is a tremendous result.
That is a small sample of the important work my hon. Friend has undertaken. Reflecting that work in the revisions to the special envoy’s duties will set the same high expectations for delivery for future incumbents. New clause 1 also simplifies the provision of resources to the special envoy by no longer requiring the establishment of a separate office for the special envoy. The envoy’s work is currently supported by her FCDO private office, the FCDO FORB team, the FCDO media office and other officials across the organisation, with an annual budget covering staffing costs and, of course, travel expenses. Resources should continue to be provided in the established manner.
New clause 1(7) makes the special envoy’s functions exercisable on behalf of the crown. Amendment 3 adjusts the Bill’s short title to “Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief”, so that it refers specifically to the special envoy. That adjustment to the title more accurately reflects recommendation 6 of the Bishop of Truro’s review, which specifically states that the role of special envoy for FORB should be established “permanently, and in perpetuity”, as I mentioned. The amended title clearly aligns with our manifesto commitment to implement the findings of the Truro report. Amendment 4 adjusts the Bill’s long title to reflect its contents more clearly, and removes references to the Prime Minister, for reasons previously discussed.
Let me respond to the hon. Member for Rotherham. The authority of the role is that it is established in the Department. The special envoy has access not only to her own staff, but to Ministers and officials across Government, as well as having the ear of the Prime Minister. The hon. Lady talked about a hierarchy of human rights. She and I know that there is no hierarchy. The persecution of individuals on the basis on their faith often involves not only their faith but other levels, including gender and, potentially, sexual orientation. There is no hierarchy of human rights; the UK defends the full range of human rights as set out in the universal declaration of human rights.
In conclusion, the Bill reinforces our commitment to the position of special envoy for freedom of religion or belief. It will support the FCDO as we ensure that progress made on the freedom of religion or belief is embedded, and that the freedom of religion or belief is central to our wider human rights work. The role has only been established because of the sheer determination of my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton.
Fiona Bruce
I thank the Minister for her response to several points and issues. I will also draw out some of the points made by colleagues across the Committee.
Let me respond to the hon. Member for Rotherham, the much-respected Chair of the International Development Committee. There is, of course, a range of envoys. The reason that the special envoy for FORB in particular is being put into statute is that doing so was a manifesto commitment. However, that does not in any way diminish the importance of the work of other envoys, nor the fact that the UK defends the full range of human rights, as the Minister said. Those rights are set out in the universal declaration of human rights and in international human rights treaties. Much of the work on human rights, including the work in the special envoy role, is often integrated and interrelated with other human rights. For example, the Minister mentioned the concerns that we have for women and girls. Many of us will be aware that millions of women and girls around the world experience discrimination, inequality and violence on the grounds of both their religion or belief and their gender: they are doubly jeopardised. That can be at the hands of state and non-state actors.
History has shown that, where freedom of religion or belief is under threat, other human rights are often also at risk. That is why my particular focus has been on this human right, while other people work on others. It is one of a number of this Government’s human rights priorities. In supporting the Bill, I hope that the Government will be further enabled to positively contribute towards protecting not only FORB but other human rights across the world. One practical example is that the International Religious Freedom or Belief Alliance, which now has 43 countries that work to promote and protect freedom of religion or belief, has six working groups, one of which is specifically on gender, for the reasons that I just mentioned.
I thank the Second Church Estates Commissioner, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire, for his kind remarks. From the many times that he has responded to questions in the House, I know that how keenly he supports the Bill and, indeed, the Church. I am grateful for that.
I could not fulfil the role without the support of the hon. Member for Strangford. It is utterly invaluable. One might say that we are divided in a political sense, but our hearts are inextricably interlinked on this issue. I thank him for having such a huge heart and for all that he does in this place.
I also thank others for the work that they do, because this is not an isolated role. Colleagues have been very kind in commending my work, but it really is teamwork. The UK should be proud of the global leadership that it has shown, but that can be done only because it is so collaborative.
It was a privilege to visit the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow—I managed to get that out!—and to see the strong relationships that she has built up across the faith groups in her area. That was such a positive example of what we should all be doing in our country as well as internationally. I thank her for inviting me to visit as part of the roadshow that my deputy envoy and I did in more than 20 towns across the UK. It was great fun.
We did the roadshow—I briefly digress—because we felt that people did not know how big the issue is internationally and how many people are affected. I will pick a statistic from the Open Doors world watch list, but of course there are many other statistics I could cite. Open Doors says that across the world about 360 million Christians are at risk of discrimination or persecution— that is just Christians. The Pew Forum has produced a recent report that says that restrictions on religion have reached a new peak globally:
“Religious groups faced harassment by governments in 183 countries… the largest number since the study began.”
Strengthening and building relationships across faith groups and showing the UK as an example of that is important.
Gavin Robinson
I feel a bit bad because I said that the hon. Lady was prepared to do it. For fear that rumours start spreading, I am glad that she has set the record straight. I am sure Hansard will back me up on what I said. But she would have done it, of that I have no doubt.
Fiona Bruce
In closing, I thank in particular my long-serving and, I think, long-suffering, over 14 years, chief of staff, Harriet Crompton, because she successfully pushed the button on her computer at exactly the right time to bring this Bill, as a presentation Bill, to the very top of the more than 100 Bills that colleagues sought to bring to this House to make legislative change. As I have said, I am very fortunate. It is very much not just me involved in this work; it really has been teamwork.
Question put and negatived.
Clause 1 accordingly disagreed to.
Clause 2 disagreed to.
Clause 3
Commencement, extent and short title
Amendment made: 3, in clause 3, page 2, line 8, leave out
“International Freedom of Religion or Belief Act 2023”,
and insert
“Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief Act 2024”.—(Fiona Bruce.)
This amendment adjusts the Bill’s short title so that it refers specifically to the special envoy.
Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
New Clause 1
Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief
“(1) There continues to be a special envoy called the Prime Minister’s Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion or Belief.
(2) The special envoy is to be appointed by, and may be removed from office at any time by, a Minister of the Crown.
(3) The special envoy must act with a view to—
(a) promoting freedom of religion or belief abroad, in particular by working with the government of the United Kingdom, with other governments and their representatives (including special envoys), and with organisations outside government;
(b) raising awareness of cases in which people abroad are persecuted or discriminated against on the grounds of religion or belief and advocating for the rights of such people.
(4) The special envoy must from time to time give a report about their work to the Prime Minister.
(5) A Minister of the Crown may give the special envoy directions about the exercise of their functions.
(6) A Minister of the Crown—
(a) must provide the special envoy with such staff, accommodation, equipment and other facilities as the Minister considers necessary for the carrying out of the special envoy’s functions;
(b) may pay allowances or other payments to or in respect of the special envoy.
(7) The special envoy’s functions are exercisable on behalf of the Crown.”—(Fiona Bruce.)
This new clause is intended to replace clauses 1 and 2. It includes largely the same material as those clauses but with several drafting and clarity-related changes.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
Title
Amendment made: 4, in title, line 1, leave out from beginning to end of line 3 and insert
“require the continued appointment of a special envoy for freedom of religion or belief and make provision about the special envoy’s functions.”—(Fiona Bruce.)
This amendment adjusts the Bill’s long title to reflect its contents more clearly. It is consequential on NC1.
Question proposed, That the Chair do report the Bill, as amended, to the House.
Fiona Bruce
May I conclude by thanking all those who have been involved in working on the Bill’s passage to date? I thank in particular my private secretary, Sue Breeze, who is indispensable to my role. I just regret that it is not possible to include her name in the Bill, so that subsequent special envoys of the Prime Minister would have the benefit of her very many years of experience on freedom of religion or belief and the global respect that she carries and that I have noticed whenever she has travelled with me across the world. We are truly fortunate to have her as someone in our FCDO who has been working on this issue for very many years.
May I also thank my parliamentary office for its support? I have mentioned my chief of staff, Harriet Crompton. May I also thank Lucy Williams? I particularly thank, for her unfailingly unflappable support, the Clerk responsible for private Members’ Bills, Anne-Marie Griffiths, who is always willing, whenever one goes into her office, to be interrupted from whatever she is doing—
Fiona Bruce
I see the right hon. Member nodding. I thought it was just me! No, Ms Griffiths is always willing to be interrupted to support colleagues. I also thank, for her energetic support, the Whip, my hon. Friend, and the hon. Friend of many in this room, the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), otherwise known as the Friday Whip.
It may not surprise people to hear that I believe in providence and the Lord’s hands on these proceedings. On the subject of Lords, I am delighted that if the Bill passes through its remaining stages, the Lord Spiritual who will, fittingly, take the Bill through the other place is the Bishop of Winchester, formerly the Bishop of Truro. He will, uniquely, be ensuring that his review’s recommendation to establish permanently and in perpetuity the role of the Prime Minister’s special envoy, with sufficient resources and authority, is implemented, and I wish him all haste and good speed as he does so.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly to be reported.
Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) Bill
Wednesday 24th April 2024
(7 months, 4 weeks ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) Bill 2023-24 View all Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 24 April 2024 - (24 Apr 2024)
The Chair
Before we begin consideration, I have a few preliminary reminders for the Committee. Please switch electronic devices to silent. No food or drink is allowed, apart from the water provided. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members email their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk.
I believe that the House is likely to be voting at 5 pm, and there could be six votes. If we continue to that time, we will be coming back, so it could get very late; Members might like to adapt the length of their speeches accordingly. My selection and grouping list for today’s meeting is available online and in the room. One amendment has been tabled. We will have a single debate on all clauses, the amendment and the schedule.
Clause 1
Livestock worrying: scope and consequences of offence
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clauses 2 to 5 stand part.
Amendment 1, in the schedule, page 5, line 29, leave out from “conviction” to end of line 30 and insert—
“(a) except in a case falling within paragraph (b) below, to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale,
(b) in a case where the person in question has previously been convicted of an offence under this Act in respect of the same dog, to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.”
The schedule.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve on the Bill Committee with you in the Chair, Mrs Latham. I thank all the right hon. and hon. Members who have agreed to be members of the Committee. There is a variety of Bill Committees—this is my second today—but that just shows people’s passion for ensuring that we have good, focused legislation, whether tabled by the Government or tabled, as in this case, by Members across Parliament. This Bill is an attempt to address concerns about the offence of livestock worrying.
The provisions were originally in the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill. I am conscious that people wonder why that Bill was paused. It started to become a somewhat unwieldy Bill that all sorts of things were being tagged on to that went considerably beyond the original purposes of that Bill. The Government, of which I was at the time a part, therefore decided to pause that Bill, but to come back with a more detailed one. I made that commitment when I was in office, and I am glad that, despite my having left office, the Government are still committed to the provisions of this Bill.
On Second Reading, I basically lost my voice—I think I managed less than a minute. I do not intend to speak for very long today, as I know that others are interested in raising specific points, but I want to summarise the Bill, as the notes eloquently do. I also thank officials in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for their help in getting to this point.
In essence, the Bill is an attempt at simplification. Clause 1(b) brings camelids within the definition of “livestock”, because animals such as llamas are starting to be farmed considerably more and to be managed in livestock settings. Clause 1(a) brings incidents on roads and paths within the scope of the offence, because as anybody who has ever been to a farm with livestock knows, livestock do not sit in one field all their lives; they are moved around, and we need to ensure that dogs do not worry the livestock as they are moved. That simplifies the situation: it not only makes it clear that dogs should be under the control of their owner or the person walking them, but gives assurances to farmers about what the limits are. Other provisions ensure that offenders will pay the expenses arising from seizing and detaining the dog, rather than those costs falling on the police.
Simply doing some modest extensions is an important element of clause 1. Rather than trying to cover every animal under the sun, as has happened in other jurisdictions, it is ultimately about keeping the Bill in line with what was intended, while ensuring that farmers can still be concerned about the safety of their animals.
Clause 2 basically updates the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 to ensure that seizing a dog is more straightforward. In particular, we are starting to see some phrases about dogs that pose a continuing threat. The clause says:
“(1) A constable may seize a dog if—
they have reasonable grounds to believe that the dog has attacked or worried livestock on agricultural land or on a road or path”.
The reason for doing that is to make it more straightforward for police to grab a suspected dog, in order to stop such behaviour happening and avoid the potential impact on livestock, without having to go to court or wait until an owner is convicted of an offence.
Clause 3 ensures that we can be more up to date about getting evidence—for example, taking dental impressions. A dog bite can often be distinguished by what is happening with their mouth and what has happened to the animal, which is particularly important when an animal has been killed. I am sure the Minister will explain in more detail why we are including both “attacking” and “worrying” in the Bill. Again, to give a simplified view, people should be aware that this is not just about a dog attacking a sheep, a cow, a camelid or a pig; just running around them can cause distress to the animal and severe consequences, such as aborting. It is about those sorts of things as well. There is even a story about how a dog ended up chasing livestock over the edge of a cliff. We need to ensure that not just what people would perceive to be an attack—direct contact with the animal by the dog—but worrying behaviour more generally is addressed.
From discussions with the police, I anticipate that most sampling should be quite straightforward, but a more detailed examination of a dog may be required at times in order to establish the connection to a specific incident. If it is deemed that that would be quite intrusive, the law requires a veterinary surgeon to be involved to ensure that the dog in question is handled appropriately.
Clause 4 extends powers of entry and search via application to a justice of the peace. There have been too many examples of people saying that they will bring in their dog and then they do not; the dog disappears, never to be seen again. It ends up somewhere else or something else happens to it. The clause basically enables a quick element of justice to be applied in order to ensure that evidence can be seized quickly.
Clause 5 covers the extent, commencement, transitional provision and short title. I am grateful that the Department agreed that we should try to ensure that the Act comes straight into force at the end of three months. There were discussions about England and Wales, and whether this an animal welfare matter, which should be devolved. Actually, this legislation is not specifically about animal welfare. It is keeping in line with the original intent of the 1953 Act. As a consequence, it is to be debated by the UK Parliament and does not require discussion by the Senedd of Wales or Welsh Ministers. I hope that explains why the matter is reserved and why a legislative consent motion is not required.
The schedule is a way of tidying up aspects of the 1953 Act. Paragraph 1(6) amends section 1(4) of the Act and talks about “attacking” or “worrying”, which ensures the Bill covers what it is supposed to.
I tabled amendment 1 because, after looking at the original Act and having discussions with various organisations, I was concerned that it seemed that the penalties would be declining. I want it to be easier to get convictions, but I do not want to reduce the penalties available. I must admit that I drafted the amendment without going to the Department for further legal advice. I know the Minister is minded to accept its sentiment but would like the Government to table a cleaner legal version on Report. I am happy for them to do that.
We need to send a strong message to dog owners right across this country. We have just been in lambing season, and many right hon. and hon. Members have examples of awful attacks in their constituencies. We see on social media—it has been coming up a lot on things such as TikTok—that farmers are really frustrated that people are not in control of their animals, which can have a major impact. People are somewhat in denial about that.
It is suggested anecdotally that quite a lot of the problems are caused by dogs escaping from their homes. Their owners have no clue about it and would be mortified to know that their dog was on the loose. People have the power to shoot dogs that are worrying livestock, but not all of the farmers and one shepherdess from my constituency I met had a shotgun licence, and not all of them wanted to do that; they wanted the owners to be responsible. Hopefully, the deterrent of a potentially unlimited fine will make people more aware of what their best friend—their dog—could be doing to other animals if they are not under good control with good recall. That is why I am keen to ensure the deterrent is sufficiently strong.
I am conscious that I sprung the amendment on the Department at the last minute. I am very grateful to the officials and our Clerk, Anne-Marie Griffiths, for all the advice they have given along the way in getting us to this stage. I will not go through the ins and outs of the amendment, but I thank the Minister’s private secretary, Tania Wimpenny, who was my private secretary when I was in the Department, with whom I had a good discussion. What she may not have revealed to the Minister among all the excitement is that she is now engaged to be married. I wanted to ensure that that is in Hansard. I congratulate her on that.
I hope people realise that this Bill is intended to be straightforward. I know there is a lot of detail in the clauses, but that is often the case when we try to amend other legislation. These modest, sensible changes will be important for our farmers and the animals for which they care. I hope the Bill will get through the Committee today.
Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)
Thank you, Mrs Latham, for calling me to contribute to this Bill Committee. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) on introducing this Bill and on its reaching Committee. It is a very important Bill that addresses a problem that affects many of my constituents in Ceredigion.
In recent years, I have had to speak to too many farmers who have been victims of dog attacks on their livestock. Suffice it to say, such attacks are devastating, not only for the animals concerned but for the families and the farmers. Many have told me that they dread looking out the window in the evening to see their livestock hurrying about in fear of a repeat attack. It is very important that this Bill has reached this stage, and I congratulate the right hon. Lady on stewarding it this far.
Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op)
In my constituency there is a lot of common land, where livestock graze with permission from the trustees of that land. Is that covered by this excellent Bill, on which I congratulate the right hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal? If the hon. Gentleman does not know, I am sure that the right hon. Lady will clarify matters.
Ben Lake
I believe that I am safe in saying—I am grateful to Government Members for their encouragement —that the powers do extend to livestock grazing on common land. That is important because we need to ensure that when such attacks happen, the owners, regardless of the livestock concerned, are assured that police have the powers necessary to fully investigate and hopefully put a stop to any repeat attacks, which often happen in my constituency. It is believed that the same dogs have committed attacks there more than once.
I reiterate my support for the Bill and congratulate the right hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal once again on bringing it forward.
Sir Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Latham. I should make a declaration of interest: I own land on which livestock is kept.
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal on doing an enormous service for livestock farming and those engaged in it not only through this valuable Bill but during her service as Secretary of State. Throughout her time in office, she took valuable steps towards enhancing the livelihoods of those whom I represent in my constituency. Her work is being carried on by the current Secretary of State.
I shall address just one or two elements of the Bill not in a critical spirit but in, I hope, a constructive one. I hope we can give some subsequent attention to my first concern about the Bill—the Minister may be able to help me by answering some of my questions or by reflecting on changes that could be introduced in subsequent stages—which is that at the moment several pieces of legislation could apply to the mischief at which this Bill is aimed. We have the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953, which this measure amends, but we also have the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. Section 3 of the 1991 Act makes it an offence to be the owner of a dog that is dangerously out of control, and the guidelines that the Crown Prosecution Service published on that offence suggest that a dog that is causing serious injury to other animals, including livestock, is potentially evincing evidence of being dangerously out of control.
We have, then, the offence in section 3 and the offences under the 1953 Act. What we do not have is coherence in the guidelines for prosecution and enforcement between when the Dangerous Dogs Act can be used and when the offence is of attacks on, or worrying, livestock. Having served as a Law Officer, I think there may well be a case for the re-publication of new guidelines on enforcement and prosecution, but the reason why I draw attention to the matter is that, even with the changes that my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal is introducing to the penalty provisions, it seems to me that they are extraordinarily light for the top end of this type of offending. An offence with a £1,000 maximum fine will generally be visited not with the maximum by a magistrates court but by a fine potentially of just a few hundred pounds—in other words, the cost of perhaps a few parking tickets—yet the impact, suffering and mischief that attacks by dogs on livestock cause to farmers and farming families are severe, and wholly out of proportion to a fine of a few hundred pounds.
My right hon. Friend will know—because I have discussed it with her—that just a few weeks ago the Dawe family, who are neighbours and constituents of mine, were subjected to an extraordinary overnight attack in which no fewer than 27 lambing ewes and lambs were killed—their faces ripped off and their bellies torn open. Many of them had to be put down when, in the morning light, that appalling scene of carnage was discovered. The irresponsibility of an owner who allows their dogs to roam free and to cause damage of that appalling character is not reflected by a fine of a few hundred pounds. Now, you may say to me, Mrs Latham, that perhaps in those circumstances an offence under section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act should be considered, and I would agree, but what we need is a coherent set of guidelines that sets out when the various offences in the hierarchy that exists should be considered by both police and the Crown Prosecution Service.
The second point that I wish to make is an allied point. It is astonishing that neither the Dangerous Dogs Act nor, certainly, the 1953 Act permits the court to disqualify an owner from owning a dog. I strongly submit to the Minister, for future consideration, perhaps in this Bill, that this offence ought to be added to section 34 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which lists the offences that gives to a court the power to disqualify a person from dog ownership. It may be that there is a lacuna, and under the Dangerous Dogs Act the normal remedy in those circumstances would be the destruction of the animal, but if the court decides that the animal should not be destroyed, surely some attention should be given to whether an owner with a dog so dangerously out of control—or even a dog that worries livestock, whether once or repeatedly—should not be allowed to own a dog until further order.
The two points that I recommend to the Minister, then—it may be that those assisting him can say that my fairly preliminary inspection of the laws in this field is wrong, and I can be reassured—are twofold. First, we need coherent guidance as to the way police investigate and prosecution prosecute, as to the balance to be struck and the considerations to be thought through, and as to the application of either a section 3 Dangerous Dogs Act offence or an offence of worrying sheep or attacking livestock, of the kind my right hon. Friend is dealing with. Secondly, we need to consider whether the offences, even those she is amending, are sufficient for this purpose. A repeat offender will be fined under level 5. That is an unlimited fine and that is good, but the repeated worrying of sheep or worrying of any livestock is not, many would say, sufficiently visited with adequate punishment by a fine alone. I commend that approach to the Minister, and if I am wrong about that or the policy of the Government is not to adopt it, we need at least to consider when section 3 should be used.
Finally, we need to consider the question of disqualification and whether or not this offence should be added to the list of offences under the Animal Welfare Act that make an owner eligible for disqualification. The court, of course, would have discretion; all the usual balancing factors that are relevant under that Act would apply. Where there is a fairly minor case of worrying, one would not expect a disqualification, but in a really grave case—such as that of the Dawe family, whom I have the privilege of representing—a court may take a thoroughly different view.
With that—I say again that this is meant not in a critical spirit but in a constructive one—I congratulate my right hon. Friend again. This is an extraordinarily valuable set of provisions that has been widely welcomed and I hope that we can consider tightening them further in the Bill’s journey through the House.
Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)
Like my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon, I am pleased to appear under your wise guidance, Mrs Latham, as we look at this vital and important legislation. I represent 200 square miles of rolling Hampshire downland, much of it dotted with sheep. Like my right hon. and learned Friend, we have seen our share of horrible incidents over the past few years; the legislation is therefore extremely welcome for me and my constituents—and I declare an interest as a dog owner.
I, too, have some small matters of detail that I want to raise for possible consideration on Report, in the spirit of trying constructively to improve the Bill. I will go through them, if I may. The first is about territorial extent. I am not as legally proficient as my right hon. and learned Friend, but I want to ensure that areas of Crown land are covered, not least royal parks, which often have their own legislation to cover what happens within them. Members will remember the famous case of Fenton chasing deer across Richmond Park—happily, in that case there was a prosecution and a conditional discharge for six months. We need to look at that. In particular, we need to think about the foreshore. There are parts of this country where sheep graze the foreshore, eating seaweed and whatever. It produces delightful slightly salty and sweet lamb, but the foreshore is a part of our landmass that has its own legal status and largely, I think I am right in saying, belongs to the Crown. It would be interesting to see how we can make sure that the legislation applies there.
The second issue that I want to raise is the retention of dogs by the police. When I was at City Hall, in a previous life, I started a campaign to drive out the plethora of dangerous dogs in London and improve the legislation. We got amendments then, but one thing that deterred the police from detaining dangerous dogs was the cost of holding them. Often, a dog would be detained, the trial would be awaited, the dog would be held—sometimes for months—the owner would not show up to the trial and the dog would be destroyed, but the police would be left with the cost. I understand that in this case there is a seven-day limit and I wonder whether we could consider that for amendment on Report.
In my honest opinion, owners will partially pay. They will get to seven days, plead that they cannot afford it and partially pay some of the costs to try to avoid their dog being put down. A game will be played. There needs to be firmer provision: either that, at seven days, partial payment is not good enough and the constable may dispose of the dog, or that an owner can agree immediately upon seizure of the dog that the dog may be disposed of. At the moment I cannot see in the Bill the possibility that, if my dog kills 27 sheep and is seized, I can say to the police there and then, “I don’t want the dog back. Do what you will with it,” at no cost to me.
Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mrs Latham. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal for inviting me to be on the Bill Committee; I very much hope she does not come to regret it. I am interested in the Bill both in a practical sense—we all want to see livestock properly protected—and as someone who is, as the hon. Member for Ceredigion pointed out, a veteran of the kept animals Bill. I will come back to that in a minute, because some of the issues that have been raised were addressed in that Bill.
I will not delay the Committee by discussing the harm that is done. I echo the points that have been made. The harm was certainly raised by the shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Steve Reed), on Second Reading, when he detailed a number of cases in offering the Opposition’s full support for the Bill, which I echo.
It will not come as any surprise to the right hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal that I make the point again that we were discussing the kept animals Bill some two and a half years ago. I was delighted that she gave me the first explanation that I have heard for its withdrawal, but I am not convinced by it. That Bill was an extraordinary collection of things in the first place, and the only additions that I recall being made were some amendments—unhelpful ones, I suspect, from the Government’s point of view—from Conservative Back Benchers. It was withdrawn, and we have not had the relevant protections for two and a half years, due to political management issues in the Conservative party. Leaving that aside, there were important points in that Bill, some of which have been brought forward in private Members’ Bills, although that is a chancy way of doing things.
I was fortunate to find the bundle of papers from that period in my office earlier. I am glad that I did because, as the right hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon and the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire said, the original kept animals Bill was a very different piece of legislation. It was much more comprehensive and introduced the notion of control orders and disqualification orders, which I think would very much address the points that have been raised. I am not clear why a different approach has been taken with this Bill.
The kept animals Bill would have effectively replaced the 1953 Act, but this Bill amends it and is quite different as a consequence. That includes the lack of a debate such as the one we had then—I am sure Members will remember it—about not just the control orders and disqualification orders but the very definition of “worrying livestock” in the 1953 Act. That led to a lengthy and complicated discussion about whether people should be expected to keep their dog on a lead when close to livestock. I am not sure why that has not been reintroduced, either. The then Minister, the right hon. and learned Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis), declined our amendments, but we were strongly of the view that that would send a very strong message to people that if they are close to livestock, their dog should be on a lead. I would like us to return to that discussion, if possible, and consider including that provision in this Bill.
More could have been done for those reasons, but, having said all that, I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal for promoting this Bill. We support it and I wish it well as it progresses through the House, but it would be good to strengthen it on Report, if possible.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Robbie Moore)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Latham. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal for promoting this incredibly important Bill. From the contributions we have heard in this debate, we know just how impactful it could be on constituents who have unfortunately experienced livestock worrying or livestock attacking.
I also thank right hon. and hon. Members for trying to improve the Bill as it moves through the House. “Our Action Plan for Animal Welfare”, published in 2021, set out our plans, aims and ambitions across animal welfare. It set out the commitments that we are focused on pursuing to deliver a better life for animals in this country and abroad. The Bill supports our commitments to ensure that new powers are available to the police so that they can respond efficiently and proactively to the worrying and attacking of livestock by dogs.
The Bill’s purpose is to amend the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953. It will strengthen police powers and extend the location and species that are within scope of that Act. As we have heard, livestock worrying and attacks on livestock can have awful impacts. The behaviour of dogs that chase, attack or cause distress to livestock can result in injury or death. Our own family farm—I refer Members to my declaration of interest—has experienced sheep worrying and sheep attacking, so I know from experience how detrimental it can be not only to the financial measures of a business but to health and wellbeing. We must also consider the impact of the inability to protect one’s own livestock. Livestock can also suffer wider tragic impacts as a result of livestock worrying, including abortion. Such impacts go beyond animals and their welfare. As I have said, they will also have a direct impact on farmers and lead to financial loss.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal raised a case relating to the difference between attacking and worrying. Paragraph 1 of the schedule updates the terminology used in the 1953 Act and addresses that specifically. Attacking livestock is dealt with separately from worrying livestock, to recognise the violent nature of such offences.
Statistics from the National Farmers Union Mutual Insurance Society show that UK farm animals worth an estimated £2.4 million were severely injured or killed by dogs in 2023. That was up by nearly 30% compared with the previous year, which demonstrates why the Bill is so important. In addition, a survey carried out by the National Sheep Association found that 70% of farmers had experienced sheep worrying incidents in the past 12 months. Some 95% of the 305 sheep farmers surveyed said that they experienced up to 10 cases of sheep worrying every year.
The Bill will improve police powers and enable them to respond to livestock worrying incidents more effectively by extending powers of seizure and modifying entry powers. It also introduces new powers to take samples and impressions from livestock and the suspected dogs. That should facilitate investigations by making it easier for the police to collect evidence, which, in turn, should improve the rate of successful prosecutions and hopefully reduce the risk of further incidents.
The Bill extends the scope of the 1953 Act by broadening the locations where the offence may take place to include roads or paths. As Committee members have mentioned, it is important to move livestock from one field to another but attacks can happen when that transition is taking place. The Bill addresses the point of roads and paths being considered.
The Bill also amends the wording of the offence of livestock worrying to create separate offences for attacks on livestock and the worrying of livestock, in recognition that both attacking and worrying livestock are serious and devastating. I am particularly pleased that the Bill will also extend the species protected by the Act to include camelids, such as llamas and alpacas. I note the point of my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire, however, about other species that could be included, such as ostriches, should things change in future and should farming practices include other species. There may be a wish for that to be considered on Report.
I turn to the amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal. Other Committee members referred to it and expressed support for higher levels of fines for the offence of livestock worrying. The current maximum fine that may be imposed in any case is a level 3 fine not exceeding £1,000. I understand that my right hon. Friend is keen to amend that fine to provide the courts with the appropriate flexibility to impose a higher fine where that is warranted. We as a Government agree that increasing the fine will serve as an additional deterrent to help to reduce the likelihood of future livestock worrying.
As drafted, however, the amendment is out of step with the current fine guidance as it refers to level 5 fines, when the practice since 2015 has been to provide for unlimited fines rather than level 5 fines. It also includes a tiered approach to take account of reoffending, which the courts can already supply under the Sentencing Council guidelines on aggravating and mitigating factors. As my right hon. Friend referenced, my officials will work with her as the Bill progresses to Report stage, before it comes back to the House, so we can table a revised amendment that will deliver on the desired intent to increase the fines that courts can issue to unlimited, and to act as a deterrent.
I am aware of the support for animal welfare in this country and the interest that the matter continues to receive. The strength of feeling has been apparent again from the discussions that we have heard. I will make a couple of additional points. On common land, the definition of agricultural land in the 1953 Act does not expressly reference common land but it does include land used for grazing, and therefore common land could be in scope of the Bill. Ultimately, it remains a matter for the courts to decide if the land in question is in scope in any particular case, but our interpretation is that common land could be determined by the courts to be in scope as grazing land.
On the shadow Minister’s point about dogs being kept on leads, the Bill does not cover that and, from our experience, there is good reason for that. The Bill deals with having control of dogs, but as Committee members may know, it is not right in every circumstance to have signage that specifically relates to keeping dogs on leads. I am aware of circumstances in Yorkshire where signage has stipulated that dogs must be kept on leads, but then someone might keep a dog on a lead and take it into a field full of cattle. If there are young calves, there will, of course, be mother cows that will want to protect their calves. If the dog owner keeps their dog on a lead and does not let go, there is a risk that the owner will also be put at risk if a mother and calf become separated and the mother wants to take down the dog. It is therefore not right in every circumstance.
That is why dogs being kept on leads does not fall in the scope of the Bill and has not been progressed at this stage. Of course, I would always refer people to the countryside code, which deals with the challenges that have been raised. The Bill builds on the Government’s ambitious programme of animal welfare reforms, and we are very pleased to support it.
Sir Geoffrey Cox
On disqualification, will the Minister go back to the Department and say to his officials that we ought to look at whether committing an offence under the 1953 Act should make someone eligible for disqualification from dog ownership? It would be a simple amendment that could be introduced in this private Member’s Bill, and I sense that there is widespread support for the proposal. If there is a good reason not to do it, the Committee and the House should of course listen to that, but I noticed that he was not going to deal with it—I hope he will forgive me; I may have been premature.
Robbie Moore
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his intervention. I was just about to talk about the implications of the experience of the Dawe family in his constituency, which was a horrendous scenario where 27 ewes and lambs were attacked—I assume there will have been multiple scenarios where disqualification would quite rightly have applied. While disqualification is not covered by the Bill, it is something that I will consider with officials for the next stage. There may be reasons why that is not in scope of the Bill, but I am absolutely willing to take that away and consider it with officials, as it has been rightly referenced by my right hon. and learned Friend.
Sir Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con)
I thank the Minister for giving way. We have talked a lot about fines and penalties, but could he advise me whether the court has the power to direct compensation to be paid to the farmers? In many of these cases, the value of livestock is much greater than any fine that can be levied. Of course, the farmer does not get access to the fine money, but they may well need compensation for their business to continue to be viable.
Robbie Moore
My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point. He is quite right that the Bill does not deal with that circumstance. Courts will be given the ability through sentencing guidelines to take into account unlimited fines through an amendment that will be introduced on Report, which the Government have committed to; it would therefore be up to the courts to implement that. He is right to reference the fact that the money from such fines will not then be distributed to the farmer, and it will therefore be up to the farmer who has been impacted negatively by sheep worrying or a sheep attack to seek compensation through civil means rather than through the courts. It is therefore outside the scope of the Bill.
As I said, the Government are wholly in support of the Bill and we will be considering further amendments that will be introduced on Report. The measures are vital in tackling livestock worrying and will greatly strengthen the existing legislation to decrease incidents of livestock worrying. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal for bringing forward the Bill.
Dr Coffey
I thank all right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed. With a former Attorney General, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon, present, I am conscious that the devil will be in the detail on aspects of law. It is my understanding that disqualification from ownership should be possible, certainly in England. It is technically an issue of animal welfare, which is devolved, so there is added complication there. However, I am happy to explore this further with the Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend to ensure that it is still possible to achieve the outcome that he seeks, whether through this legislation or otherwise.
Sir Geoffrey Cox
The Dangerous Dogs Act does permit disqualification, so although the Animal Welfare Act considers the welfare of an animal, the Dangerous Dogs Act aims at a different mischief. There seems to be no reason why livestock worrying offences should not be included under the same principle as the Dangerous Dogs Act.
Dr Coffey
I commit to my right hon. and learned Friend to go away and work with the Minister and officials on the details of that particular issue. It was my understanding that there were other legal powers available for the outcomes that he seeks, but if that is not the case—he has expressed some concern about the level of detail—we should look to rectify that in future.
Daniel Zeichner
The fact that disqualification was brought forward in the kept animals Bill suggests that this Bill was the appropriate place for it.
Dr Coffey
The then Farming Minister did give an explanation when the kept animals Bill was paused. That Bill covered many issues, which have already been covered in private Members’ Bills and Government Bills in a number of different ways. Those issues have been broken up to try to ensure that the Bills are passed without all the extra things that people had been talking about. This is nothing to do with party political management; I remind the Committee that at one point in the kept animals Bill, we were starting to consider how to hold a chicken—quite far off topic from its original purpose. This Bill tries to simplify matters. I recognise that the hon. Member for Cambridge may have a different perspective on that, but I will stick to what I believe to be the case.
In response to my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire, as has been said, the Bill extends to agricultural land, which is perceived to have its natural meaning. It is not intended to cover the Fenton situation, although what happened there was unfortunate. We have to bear in mind that quite a lot of what we are dealing with is negligence by owners, rather than criminal intent. We are not getting into the situation of deliberately releasing animals to attack other animals. At the moment, I do not think it would cover a foreshore, but I do not have the precise legal definition. It basically covers bare land that would be used for agriculture. That is pretty comprehensive and certainly should cover the common land that the hon. Member for Neath referred to.
I am mindful of the questions that have been raised today, some of which, as I hope Committee members recognise, will be taken away to see whether further strengthening is needed. I am happy to meet Committee members, but I will also write to let them know about some of the questions that have been raised.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 2 to 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Bill to be reported, without amendment.
Pensions (Special Rules for End of Life) Bill
Wednesday 24th April 2024
(7 months, 4 weeks ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Pensions (Special Rules for End of Life) Bill 2023-24 View all Pensions (Special Rules for End of Life) Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chair
Before we begin, I have some killjoy preliminary reminders for the Committee. Please switch electronic devices to silent. No food or drinks are permitted during sittings of the Committee, except the water provided. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members email their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk.
On to business, my selection and grouping list for today’s sitting is available online and in the room. No amendments have been tabled. We will have a single debate on all three clauses of the Bill.
Clause 1
Changes to periods of life expectancy
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Siobhain. I thank you, the Minister and all Committee members for attending. I also thank the Department for Work and Pensions legislative team, who have been a great asset and a source of useful assistance throughout the process. I thank the Opposition for their support and my hard-working staff for their efforts.
As I said on Second Reading, the Bill is small and narrow in focus, consisting of just the three clauses. It seeks to amend existing legislation that covers the definition of terminal illness for the Pension Protection Fund and the financial assistance scheme, which is currently a life expectancy of only six months. We seek to increase that definition to 12 months. The extension would allow people with a terminal illness to receive terminal illness payments when they are likely to have 12 months or less to live. Such payments are a one-off lump sum from the PPF scheme or an early payment from the FAS.
I am sure we would all agree that when someone receives the devastating news that they have a terminal illness, they should receive any and all financial help possible during their final days. The constant advances in medical science—treatments, drugs and palliative care—make this Bill that much more important, because things are rather difficult to predict. This extends to the pension schemes as well. Most private pension schemes already provide cover in the form of serious ill health payments.
As will be explained, the Government passed legislation two years ago to ensure the same outcome for individuals receiving certain social security benefits such as universal credit, employment and support allowance, and personal independence payments. I came to understand, however, that two aspects of pensions legislation lacked updated coverage. That legislation relates to the Pension Protection Fund and the financial assistance scheme—the focus of the Bill—which retained the six-months definition. The Bill seeks to rectify that.
In case any right hon. or hon. Members present in Committee were not at the Second Reading debate, I shall explain briefly what exactly the PPF and the FAS are. The Pension Protection Fund was established by the Pensions Act 2004. It pays compensation to individuals when the sponsors of their defined-benefit pension schemes—usually their employers—become insolvent and lack the necessary assets to pay pensions to the level that the Pensions Protection Fund would ordinarily pay. That applies for insolvencies that take place on or after 6 April 2005. The financial assistance scheme applies to individuals whose pension schemes were unable to meet their pensions liabilities in full when those schemes started to wind up between 1 January 1997 and 5 April 2005.
Currently, the PPF can make a one-off lump sum payment to someone who has not yet drawn their PPF compensation but is terminally ill. The FAS makes similar provision by allowing the early payment of financial assistance. Both the PPF legislation and the FAS regulations use the same definition of terminal illness. As I alluded to earlier, the Bill will bring the Pension Protection Fund and the financial assistance scheme in line with the Department for Work and Pensions’ definition of terminal illness, which, following the Social Security (Special Rules for End of Life) Act 2022, was likewise extended up to 12 months when calculating certain benefits. Therefore, the Bill seeks to harmonise the legislative definition of terminal illness such that following its commencement all legislation will use the extended 12-month definition.
I repeat that I hope that by harmonising the legislative definition we can encourage all pension providers that do not already have provision for considering serious ill-health payments when the member has a life expectancy of 12 months or less to consider putting that in place or updating or extending their scheme rules. Yes, the Bill has a narrow scope, but it might act as a prompt and as encouragement to other pension providers.
The Bill is legally tight, consisting of just three clauses. Clause 1 amends the current definition of “terminally ill”, normally referred to as “end of life”, from six months to 12 months in all relevant legislation; clause 2 covers the territorial extent and commencement of the Bill; and clause 3 establishes the short title of the Act: the Pensions (Special Rules for End of Life) Act 2024.
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
Is my hon. Friend entirely happy with the wording of clause 2(4)? Has he had an undertaking from the Minister that the Government will bring the Bill into force as soon as possible? I ask because I was lucky enough to take the through Parliament Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019, which had a similar clause. Some five years later, we are still waiting for the Government to introduce the parking code of practice, which is outrageous. If my hon. Friend has not had an undertaking from the Minister, does he think he should obtain one?
Mr Robertson
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for reminding me that the Bill’s introduction depends on the Minister taking action. It was not this Minister who spoke on Second Reading but one of his colleagues, and we did receive an assurance that the legislation would be in place as soon as possible. As I understand it, we need to make sure that the situation in Northern Ireland is brought together with our legislation, because it is a devolved matter. I will come on to that in a minute. The Minister on Second Reading assured me that it would be brought in as soon as possible; I do not know exactly when that will be, but I am sure that the Minister will confirm it today. If he does not confirm it as strongly as we would like, maybe we can intervene on him, but I am satisfied that, given the Government’s support for the Bill, they will seek to introduce it as soon as all the ducks are in a row—that is how I can best describe it. But my right hon. Friend’s point is very important.
The Bill’s territorial extent is slightly complicated, given that aspects of the Pension Protection Fund are covered by devolved legislation in Northern Ireland, as seen in clause 1(3) and (4) and clause 2(2). However, officials are working with the devolved legislature on that matter, and as I understand it our colleagues in Northern Ireland are keen to see the alteration happen as soon as possible.
As explained, the Bill focuses on only the Pension Protection Fund and the financial assistance scheme. Thus, clause 1 and its subsequent subsections seek to amend relevant legislation and provisions connected to the Pension Protection Fund and the financial assistance scheme. Specifically, subsections (1) and (2) amend the definition of terminal illness by changing the period of life expectancy from the current six months to 12 months, in respect of Pension Protection Fund compensation.
James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend on this extremely worthwhile Bill. It really is a superb effort and I am grateful to him for it. I am puzzled, however; perhaps I should have asked this question on Second Reading. Who defines whether the person is terminally ill within 12 months? After all, many diagnoses of terminal illness may well last longer than 12 months, and some people may have no such diagnosis. Where does the six or 12 month-period come from? Who decides it, and what is the certification that that is the case?
Mr Robertson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point. As I understand it, it is a classification or assessment made by the medical person in charge of a person’s very sad case. One of my motivations for introducing the Bill is that, given advances in medical science, it can be difficult to predict how long somebody is likely to live. Six months is a very short period of time and, through appropriate care, somebody can perhaps live longer than that. I seek to extend it to 12 months, which is somewhat more all-encompassing, but it is still a prediction. It is still drawing a line somewhere.
One of the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Sir Philip Davies) on Second Reading was that perhaps we should assess the person’s capabilities and physical and mental state rather than try to predict how long they will live. That was a worthwhile intervention from him, but I do not think we are at that stage yet. What we are saying now is to extend the six-month period to 12 months, because that would make it a little more predictable—if that is the right word. It is a difficult area and my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire has picked up on a good point.
Clause 1(1) amends schedule 7 to the Pensions Act 2004 and subsection (2) amends schedule 5 to the Pensions Act 2008, with both substituting six months for 12 months.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
I, too, offer the hon. Gentleman my congratulations. The Bill is extremely worth while. We have talked about the difficulties of diagnosis and the fact that 12 months is a more reasonable period, but does he anticipate that extending the period from six to 12 months will bring a lot more conditions and illnesses into the scope of the legislation?
Mr Robertson
I am grateful for that intervention; it is a good question. Not being a medical person, I assume it would bring some more illnesses within the definition, but it will not affect a huge number of people. As I say, the Bill is fairly narrow in scope. What I hope it will do is prompt the providers of other pension schemes to consider adopting the 12-month period rather than six months. Yes, I am sure it will bring in more people with various illnesses. Not being a medic, I would hesitate to go any further, but that is a good point.
Clause 1(3) and (4) make similar provisions to subsections (1) and (2) but for Northern Ireland, amending the definition of terminal illness in respect of Pension Protection Fund compensation payments. Subsection (3) amends schedule 6 to the Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 2005 and subsection (4) amends schedule 4 to the Pensions (No. 2) Act (Northern Ireland) 2008. Again, both substitute six months for 12 months.
I have a few more provisions to read through yet; I apologise to the Committee. Subsection (5) amends the definition of terminal illness and the period of life expectancy in relation to progressive disease in regulations 2(9) and 17(3D) of the Financial Assistance Scheme Regulations 2005. Again, both substitute six months for 12 months.
Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the hon. Member on his commendable Bill and thank him for inviting me to be part of his Committee today. Please forgive me, for I should know this, but I cannot find it in the notes: which medical professional would be responsible for assessing the life expectancy term? Would that be confined to one or two medical professionals?
Mr Robertson
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising that point. My understanding is that it is one medical professional. I cannot give her a specific answer, but I understand that it is the person who is in charge of that case for that particular person. I do not know exactly how senior they are. I understand that it is not subject to second opinions or anything like that.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene at this point. I was responsible as Secretary of State for doing quite a lot of this realignment. In essence, the NHS treats and issues certificates on the basis—which brings in other elements—that the end of life is, in its view, 12 months, so it will be a doctor, nurse or similar who does that. This is a simple alignment with how the NHS defines terminal illness in practice.
Mr Robertson
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for providing more information than I have to hand. As far as I can see, that is the right way to go about this. Twelve months probably gives a little more reassurance to the person making that assessment.
Transitional provisions are guidelines that outline how to transition from the old regulations to the new ones, and saving provisions are designed to protect certain rights, privileges, obligations or legal proceedings that are already in place before the new regulations or orders come into effect. That means that subsections (7) and (8) of clause 2 simply allow for the creation of regulations or orders that include special clauses to manage the change from old to new regulations, protecting against any unintended consequences that might arise during the transition.
To return to the Bill—we are getting there—subsection (9) of clause 2 provides that regulations under subsection (4), relating to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and with the territorial extent of England, Wales and Scotland, will be made by statutory instrument. That is a form of legislation, as everybody here is aware, that allows a provision of an Act of Parliament to be subsequently brought into force or altered without Parliament having to pass a new Act. Subsection (10) provides that an order made under subsection (5) of clause 2, relating to the Department for Communities in Northern Ireland and with the territorial extent of Northern Ireland, is exercisable by statutory rule—again, a form of legislation that allows for detailed regulations to be created without the need for a new Act of Parliament.
Finally, as I mentioned, clause 3 is simply the short title of the Act, which, if the Bill is passed, will be the Pensions (Special Rules for End of Life) Act 2024. I do hope that it will be passed in this Parliament and that the extended definition of terminal illness—life expectancy of 12 months—will come into force, providing a little bit of ease to individuals who have received the most devastating news. I thank the Committee for its indulgence.
Dr Coffey
It is a pleasure to speak in Committee about the Bill, which I strongly support. As I have already pointed out, some of the realignment involved is intended to ensure some simplicity for people at one of the most difficult times of their lives, so that they do not have to go around getting different aspects of treatment or negotiating. We made that good change a few years ago. There have been various bits of legislation along the way—some welfare and pensions legislation is done through regulations and some through primary legislation, so it can seem cumbersome. But this is the right moment to make sure that this part of the support available to people in their difficult last moments is fully aligned.
I would like to say something to the Minister. I am conscious that getting even regulations through Parliament takes time and more effort from officials. I would like him either to confirm that the regulations have already been drafted in anticipation of Royal Assent, so that they can be laid before Parliament straight away, or to say that he will consider simply changing the element in question. I have been encouraging others leading private Members’ Bills through Parliament to change the commencement dates so that they come into force three months after Royal Assent.
I am conscious that the Pensions Regulator and similar organisations might have to address some issues, but they should know that the Bill has the full support of this House—of both Houses, I anticipate. We should not wait for further legislation to be commenced, given that people at the end of their lives would welcome this matter being put to bed straight away.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Paul Maynard)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dame Siobhain. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury for bringing forward this legislation; I should also thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal, the former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, for paving the way.
This may seem a small and discrete piece of legislation, but it is very important. As my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury explained, the Bill extends the definition of terminal illness for compensation payments made under both the Pension Protection Fund and the Financial Assistance Scheme. Members will be able to claim their compensation on the grounds of terminal illness if a medical professional confirms that they have less than 12 months to live, rather than the current six months. That will enable eligible members to receive the vital support of payments at an earlier point in their illness. The change restores the original policy intent of alignment between the social security special rules provisions and both the PPF and FAS. It will also bring those two schemes into line with the tax definition of “serious ill health”, which allows private pension schemes to make payments where the member has less than 12 months to live.
I will try to cover some of the issues raised today and on Second Reading. There was a particular concern on Second Reading as to whether people whose schemes were not in the PPF or FAS would have a similar opportunity. Although I cannot provide definitive numbers—I do not believe they actually exist—for serious ill health payments, one of the leading independent trustee firms, Dalriada, has confirmed that:
“Trustees may only make such payments in accordance with the provisions of their scheme’s trust deed and rules. In practice, most scheme rules do allow for such payments.”
Officials have also contacted the Association of Pension Lawyers, which collectively acts for many schemes of all sizes. It has confirmed that, in the experience of its members, most occupational pension schemes will have an option of a serious ill health lump sum payable on a discretionary basis.
We have also heard questions today, and as we did on Second Reading, about who would be making the decisions on terminal illness, and the range of those illnesses. I can confirm that those decisions will be made by healthcare professionals, such as clinicians and medical practitioners, who have had direct oversight of the individual concerned. Although there is no definitive list of what constitutes a terminal illness, I imagine that the provisions would certainly include illnesses such as advanced cancer, dementia, motor neurone disease, and other neurological diseases, such as Parkinson’s. However, in my view the definition does not exclude any particular range of conditions, because one’s lived experience of a condition is not determined by the label that we hang around our necks. I find that I have been saying that for 48 years of my life, frankly. We do not determine someone’s lived experience just by the name of their particular condition.
My hon. Friend the Minister for Employment was also asked on Second Reading whether fixed time limits were the right way to go, and whether there would be adequate training for clinicians and communication to make people aware of the changes. The Department engaged widely on time limits ahead of the Social Security (Special Rules for End of Life) Act 2022, and chose the 12-month approach specifically to align with the NHS definition of “end of life”, and to link up with existing initiatives for clinicians that encourage the identification of people in their final year of life. This Bill simply aligns the definition used for the PPF and the FAS with that used more widely by the DWP and the NHS.
As part of the preparations made ahead of the 2022 Act, the Department engaged extensively with senior clinicians from key medical organisations and hospices, as well as representatives from multiple charities and networks of welfare advisers. DWP bulletins were sent out by the British Medical Association, the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Royal College of Physicians, the Association for Palliative Medicine, Hospice UK and NHS England networks across the country. The Department also initiated plans to create a learning module for clinicians to raise awareness among the clinical community of the financial support available for those who are nearing the end of life. That learning module went live in February.
Assurances were also sought that the definition of a terminal illness would be consistent across the DWP. I can provide that assurance today. As the Minister for Employment said on Second Reading, this Bill builds on the previous legislation—which we have just heard about—which changed the special rules for social security benefits. The scope of that legislation limited the changes that we could make to social security benefits administered by the DWP, as they involved the fast-tracking of benefit claims. This final change brings payments made by the PPF and FAS into alignment with those changes.
As I mentioned a little earlier, this Bill aligns the PPF and FAS definition with the tax rules for serious ill health. That will ensure that the payments made by the PPF do not trigger unauthorised payment tax charges on either the PPF or the individual to whom the payments are made. If the definition was to be amended beyond 12 months, as some have suggested, members could have faced significant tax charges on their payments, which I am sure no one wishes to see happen.
I have noted the comments today from my right hon. Friends the Members for East Yorkshire and for Suffolk Coastal about the commencement of the provisions in the Bill. I can confirm today that the intention is for that to happen as soon as practicable after Royal Assent. I see no reason for delay or obfuscation. We have all agreed today that this is a vital piece of legislation that will benefit many of the most vulnerable in our society at the time they need help most, so I have no intention at all of delaying it.
Sir Greg Knight
I am most grateful to the Minister for what he has just said. Can he confirm that that is an undertaking that he has given, and that it is unequivocal?
Paul Maynard
Given that the phrase I used was “as soon as practicable”, I can give that solemn undertaking. I would hate it if either scheme had some kink in its processes that might cause delay. I will do everything in my power to ensure that this is done as soon as possible. I meet the PPF regularly, and this will be on the agenda for the next meeting to make sure all its ducks are in a row, like all the Department’s are.
To conclude—
James Gray
Before the Minister does that, does he agree that one person who would have been very pleased by this legislation is that great champion of pensions and of pensioners, Frank Field, who died yesterday? He was a great man and a great gentleman.
Paul Maynard
I am grateful for that intervention, because I should have thought to start my speech by paying tribute to Frank Field and the immense amount of work he did in the Department for Work and Pensions. He was a thoughtful and humane man, respected on both sides of the House, and I am more than happy to join in paying tribute to him.
Being told that one is nearing the ends of one’s life can be a devastating and frightening experience. It is crucial that those reaching the final stages of their life do not have to worry as much about their finances and can focus on spending their time with the people who matter to them. The Bill takes us one step further toward ensuring that that can happen, building on the changes made back in 2022. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury for promoting the Bill, and I commend it to the Committee.
Mr Robertson
I thank the Minister for that positive response. We look forward to the measure being introduced as soon as practicable. I also thank all members of the Committee for their attendance and contributions today, as well as the team who helped to put the Bill together.
It was rather remiss of me to forget to pay tribute to Frank Field, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire for reminding us. A long time ago, before I was elected to this House, I had the pleasure of working with Frank on a charity project I was involved with, just across the river at Lambeth Palace. We were raising money to create a hostel for homeless women in London at Marylebone complex, just off the Marylebone Road, and Frank was very active member of the fundraising committee. There was no benefit to him; he did it because he felt it was the right thing to do. I pay sincere tribute to Frank.
That seems a good point to finish my speech by restating my thanks to everyone who helped with the Bill.
The Chair
I am sure we are all united in sending our condolences to the family and friends of Frank Field, a man who showed us all how to be a Member of Parliament.
Hon. Members
Hear, hear.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill to be reported, without amendment.