House of Lords
House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]
10:30 - Division on Lord Steel of Aikwood’s Motion. - Ayes: 175 / Noes: 16 - Motion agreed.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the House of Lords Reform Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:
Clauses 10 to 19, Clauses 1 to 9.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, I find it difficult to recall that this Bill was first debated in this House four years ago in July 2007. I cannot help feeling that it is time we got on with it. We have a great opportunity today to proceed with the Committee stage.
The reason for the Motion is that I have agreed to withdraw Part 1 of the Bill—that is, Clauses 1 to 9 —dealing with the statutory appointments commission. There are two reasons for doing so—one of principle and one of practicality. The one of principle is simply this: that I would like to attract as supporters of the Bill both those who think that the Bill is necessary and sufficient and, to quote my noble friend Lord Norton, those who think it is necessary but wholly insufficient. We will in due course get to a point where the House has to choose, in the Government’s own paper, between an 80 per cent elected House and a 100 per cent elected House. The position on this side of the House is that we, the Liberal Democrats, support 100 per cent and the Conservative Party supports 80 per cent. If that view were to prevail, then of course the provisions for a statutory appointments commission are already in draft in the Government’s own Bill and, in the mean time, we can retain our confidence in the non-statutory Appointments Commission under the noble Lord, Lord Jay. That is the point of principle.
The point of practicality is that one can see on the Order Paper that, of the 160 amendments the Bill has attracted, three-quarters of them are to the section of the Bill on the appointments commission. I submit that we would be wasting our time on a Friday debating endless amendments to a part of the Bill that we do not propose to proceed with. That is why it makes sense to change the order of the debate so that we can proceed immediately with the three principal issues of the Bill: first, the hereditary by-elections; secondly, retirement from the House; and, thirdly, removing serious law breakers. I believe that by 3 o’clock, with good will and with the overwhelming view of the House, we can pass the Bill to Report stage and satisfy also the demands of the Constitution Committee of the other place. I beg to move.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, I am disappointed to hear that the noble Lord seeks to withdraw Part 1 of the Bill. One of the great discussions we need on the reform of your Lordships’ House is not on the matter of election—we will leave that aside for the moment—but on how an appointment to the House can be made. An attempt was made with the so-called people’s Peers to establish a commission to decide which people, other than politicians, might be elected to this House. It is not for me to judge whether or not that is a success. The suggestion is that a number of people—appointed by who?—should have the final decision on who should be appointed to this House. Is it another super-quango?
All these issues have to be discussed and it is not good enough, I am sorry to say to the noble Lord, to go this far with the Bill—and it has been in gestation far longer than the four years he has mentioned—and then say, “Well we can just abandon Part 1”. It is a real mistake. We need to debate the issue thoroughly in every aspect if we are to proceed properly.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I do not agree with the Motion proposed by my noble friend Lord Steel for different reasons. My first reason is that he tabled the Motion to re-order the consideration of the amendments only last night. We have not, therefore, had a chance to consider the implications of what he proposes. If we were to remove Clauses 1 to 9 of the Bill, as he proposes, there will be consequential amendments to the rest of the Bill which have not been considered, much less tabled, today.
The noble Lord referred also to a number of the merits of the remaining parts of the Bill. I do not want to go into detail arguing about that now—my views, for example, on the by-elections are well known. However, if I may say so to my noble friend, it is on the verge of discourtesy to table this Motion so late in the proceedings of the Bill and then invite your Lordships to agree to it straightaway.
My noble friend also said that the Bill has been under consideration for a long time. He did not explain the position clearly. The fact is that this Bill has been rejected three times in the past—or at least has not secured passage through Parliament.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, I am very interested in what the noble Lord has to say. Unfortunately, when he turned his back to speak to his noble friend, none of us could hear him.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. I agree that I did that and I will try not to do so again.
My noble friend Lord Steel referred to the history of this matter. He said that this Bill had been under consideration since 2007. That is not quite correct. Different versions, slightly different versions or even identical versions of the Bill have indeed been considered but have not secured parliamentary approval. We are considering a new Bill in this Session, which I hope will end up in the same way as the previous ones.
My principal objection to the Motion is that it was tabled so late and that we therefore have a Marshalled List which is back to front. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will not persist with his Motion.
Viscount Astor
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Steel says that he has withdrawn Clauses 1 to 9 but, of course, on the Order Paper they are there to be debated. Would not the proper way to proceed be for the noble Lord to take the Bill in the order that it is written and move that Clauses 1 to 9 not stand part of the Bill?
Lord Wills
My Lords, I understand the concerns that have been expressed already today about the new approach of the noble Lord, Lord Steel. However, like him, I think the time has come to get on with the Bill.
This was not always my position. When I was the Minister responsible for constitutional reform in the previous Government, that Government’s view—as I believe this Government’s view is today—was that the Bill is a distraction, perhaps even a deliberate distraction, from the main business of establishing a wholly or mainly elected House of Lords. I still want to see such radical reform but I fear that this Government’s approach to securing it has doomed its prospects for the foreseeable future. We should therefore get on with this worthwhile Bill.
I had hoped that the Government would have noticed that the most astute opponents of reform of this place—such as my noble friend Lord Grocott and many other noble Lords who are in their place today—have zeroed in on one particular issue as the justification for their opposition: that is, the relationship between the House of Commons and an elected House of Lords. As I have said many times, although I still want to see a wholly elected House of Lords, this is a legitimate concern. There is no question but that there are real issues here and the Government have refused to address them, waving them aside with some airy, unsubstantiated assertions and assumptions.
It is not inevitable that an elected House of Lords would lead to legislative gridlock but it needs further consideration. Unless the Government show more effort in addressing these concerns, I fear that the prospects for an elected Chamber are doomed—at least for this Parliament and probably well beyond. Therefore, I believe that we should go along with what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, is proposing today. We should address and embrace the more limited but none the less extremely worthwhile reforms embedded in this Bill and, in his words again, get on with it.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, I want to make a couple of comments on this. I had not really paid proper attention to this Bill in its previous three incarnations, mainly because I thought that we were going to see something through from the Government and that this was basically a side-show that would go away. Yet it does not seem to be doing that, which is worrying me. It is my experience of House of Lords reform that it flounders regularly. That is why 92 hereditary Peers were left here: to give an incentive for further reform. I am quite certain that if that incentive is removed, as is proposed under this Bill, we will eventually die out and end up with a wholly appointed House by default in a few years’ time, because further reform will flounder and they will just say that this is what we should have.
All we have done is to use a backdoor method of circumventing the possible will of another place, if it really wants to have an elected House. This is a hugely dangerous Bill; it is a clever way around ensuring that certain people manage to maintain their seats here. My purpose is to make sure that there is proper reform and that I am removed, but democratically. The whole point, and this is why I oppose this Motion, is that if we end up with an appointed House under this Bill, the appointments commission is absolutely key to the future composition of this House. That commission will probably end up with the great and good sitting on it, and they tend to put people on who are like themselves and who will tend to believe that the sometime excesses of the bureaucracy and the Executive just need a little tweaking to get them right.
That is very dangerous because we will see the mavericks disappear from this House steadily over the years, as they die out. We will probably no longer see another Michael Onslow—the late Earl Onslow— or people like that whom we need in this House, or somewhere in Parliament, in order to point out the errors of our ways from time to time when we all pat ourselves on the back for being wise and having great wisdom. The commission is key to it and I am not happy with the idea of an independent Appointments Commission as it is currently constituted, because you will not end up with something that our grandchildren like. This almost needs to be tackled very much upfront so that we can shape the future composition of the Lords, if we are to go down this route, in a way that is sensible and gives us back some independence. By the way, can I recommend the Cross Benches? It is wonderful sitting here because you can look both sides beadily in the eye without having to turn around and not address the House.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I arrived here this morning expecting to debate Amendment 1 first. I then find that my noble friend Lord Steel has used another device. Your Lordships will recall that in Committee on an earlier form of the Bill he introduced an amendment at the last minute, which he called a device. This time, he has introduced a Motion. He did not have the courtesy to tell me about it, yet he knew I had amendments down on the Order Paper. If he had discussed it with me, it would at least have been a courtesy. We would have disagreed but I would have been able to prepare for today in a different manner than I have.
I say seriously to the House that to accept this Motion is a very bad precedent for this House to do on a Private Member’s Bill. The only time that a Private Member’s Bill should have a Motion of this type is when it is unanimous and this is clearly not unanimous. All I am doing is repeating what I said in an earlier debate in your Lordships’ House. It is not the first time I have said this. If your Lordships refer to Hansard on 21 January this year, I said exactly the same thing to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, when he introduced his navigation aids Bill. The noble Lord did not produce a Motion but said, when reading out his speech on Second Reading, “I’m going to delete these clauses”. I think that he was going to delete seven out of the eight clauses. He also did not have the courtesy to talk to me about it first, although my name was on the speakers list. What I said to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, I also say to my noble friend Lord Steel:
“I fear that this is an abuse of the House. Perhaps he should do the right thing, withdraw this Bill and bring forward”—
this was to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley—
“for Second Reading a Bill that he actually intends to pursue through the House”.—[Official Report, 21/1/11; col. 617.]
I then went on about the amendments but the principle is exactly the same. If my noble friend Lord Steel does not now want an appointments commission—I will come onto that in a minute—he can quite easily withdraw this Bill. If he had come to me and asked, “Will you give me a very quick Second Reading on a revised Bill without the appointments commission?”, we could have looked at that and then we would not have had this Motion. This is a very bad precedent on a Private Member’s Bill.
There is another difficulty which my noble friend Lord Trefgarne raised: that I have consequential amendments, as does the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, which start in Part 1 and have consequences in the rest of the Bill. Those consequential amendments have now become pre-sequential amendments. That is not going to lead to a sensible debate; that will make it extremely difficult.
I then come to the real reason why the noble Lord is moving this Motion. It is not for the convenience of your Lordships but to remove the egg on the face of Mr Clegg. Those are not my words; those are the words which my noble friend Lord Steel used on 4 June, which your Lordships can find on the Guardian blog website. My noble friend said:
“There is a growing body of opinion within my party that we have to save Clegg from having egg on his face and this scheme”—
that is, the scheme relating to reform of the House of Lords—
“is not fit to fly”.
My noble friend wants to remove the statutory appointments commission. However, the extraordinary thing is that on 24 March 2010 my same noble friend moved an amendment to the Motion at Second Reading of a Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, with the words,
“but this House regrets the omission from Part 5 of the Bill of a statutory Appointments Commission”.
I know my noble friend has changed his mind as to whether this House should be elected. He started off, when he was leader of the Liberal Party, wanting an elected House. He then decided that an elected House would not work so he now wants to retain the House in its present form. My noble friend wanted an appointments commission. He regretted that with a Motion; he now does not want an appointments commission. I am concerned about the reputation of my noble friend, who is a great friend of mine. He keeps changing his mind. I remember that when the potential president John Kerry stood for election, he was known as “flip-flop Kerry”. I should hate a similar title to be given to my noble friend. For that reason, I will oppose the Motion.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
Briefly, I support the noble Lord, Lord Wills. Surely we must get on with this. It is ludicrous that at present Members of this House have no power to resign permanently. We have far too many Peers in the House already. Surely, for the limited but significant improvements that Parts 2 and 3 of the Bill will provide, we should get on with it today, recognising that there is great dissent in all four quarters of the House over the issue of election or appointment. In any event, the Richard committee is looking at this. There seems to be no good argument against the Motion. I understand the disappointment of some who have spoken about the fact that we will not be dealing with amendments on the appointments commission. However, that is highly contentious. Surely we can get on with it now.
The Earl of Caithness
With respect, the noble Lord is wrong. We will deal with the appointments commission. You cannot not deal with it because there are amendments on it. What the noble Lord should have said to be clear is that it will be dealt with at the end, under our noble friend’s Motion. We will still debate the appointments commission in full.
Viscount Tenby
My Lords, I declare an historic interest. I was a member of the original group chaired by the late Lord Caernarvon. Seventeen years ago that first group started to discuss House of Lords reform and we have not moved much further forward since. I apologise for having been unable to speak at Second Reading. However, it was so long ago that I have forgotten the reason, but it must have been a compelling one.
I urge noble Lords, quite strongly, to support the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, in his Motion. My only criticism is that the Bill should be called the “Improvement to the House of Lords Bill”. It seeks, in practical and concise terms, to put right certain anomalies, which in some instances bring this House into ridicule in the outside world. We can go on talking in here but it is the perception outside that matters. With the greatest respect, many of the amendments tabled for discussion today—some are very good and solid—concern the reform of the House of Lords. They have nothing to do with this Bill, which is crafted to get us through the difficulties that we have had to date. Therefore, I urge noble lords to support the Motion.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, that is an excellent proposal from the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby: we should refer to the Bill as the “Improvement to the House of Lords Bill”. That is exactly what it is. I fully support the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Steel. While the noble Earl is correct to say that it will not prevent our discussing Part 1 of the Bill, it will ensure that those discussions do not impede discussion of the other, essential elements of the Bill, which my party fully supports. I support both the principle and the practicalities mentioned by the noble Lord. We have had many frustrations with the lack of progress on the Bill. We need to get on with it and the best way to expedite progress is to support the noble Lord in his Motion.
The Lord Bishop of Leicester
My Lords, the position of this Bench has consistently been, over many years, that considerations of Lords reform should pay careful attention to both the effectiveness of this Chamber and questions of the people’s confidence in the parliamentary system. What is proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, addresses both those issues effectively. We have a responsibility to the House to support the Motion and proceed with it as quickly as we reasonably can today.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, it is about time that somebody else spoke in favour of the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. It is quite unacceptable to have a Motion of this kind brought forward at the very last minute when we have all worked on the assumption that the amendments would be taken in the normal order, starting at the beginning of the Bill and going on to the end.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, it may be possible to accuse the noble Lord, Lord Steel, of certain things but to accuse him of discourtesy is quite wrong. What he seeks to do as a Private Member in charge of this Bill, having listened to colleagues in all parts of the House, is to produce something that is more acceptable to most of them than his previous Bill was. What he proposes in the Motion that he has moved this morning will enable us to move on, as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has said, to substantive discussions on those parts of the Bill on which there is, I detect, a fairly general consensus in this House. We are all in the debt of the noble Lord, Lord Steel. We should thank him for what he has done and support his proposal.
Lord Elton
My Lords, I am a friend to this Bill. I rise briefly to say only that I am also a friend to the noble Lord, Lord Steel. However, I deeply regret the precedent that we are setting by allowing your Lordships to come through the Front Door of the House to discover that the Order of Business is completely different from what it was the night before. I hope it is not something that will be done in the future.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I should point out that this has already been done when the government Chief Whip moved a Motion that the Welfare Reform Bill should be considered in Grand Committee without having consulted properly with the officials of the House to see whether that was practically possible. Unfortunately, that precedent has already been created.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, I am persuaded by my own arguments. On the point of alleged discourtesy, we have a saying in Scotland, “I didn’t come up the Clyde on a bike”. I know perfectly well that if I had tabled this Motion earlier in the week we would have had hundreds more amendments tabled to the parts of the Bill which the House wishes to get on with. I propose that we proceed to the vote.
Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims (Amendment) Bill
House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]
(13 years, 1 month ago)
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11:41 - Division on whether Clause 10 should stand part of the Bill. - Ayes: 142 / Noes: 18 - Clause 10 agreed.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I wonder if my noble friend really is concerned to proceed with the Bill, and to move the House into Committee at this point.
Lord Trefgarne
The plain fact is that the Joint Select Committee, of which I have the honour to be a member, is considering a government draft Bill. I have been accused of opposing all kinds of House of Lords reform simply because the hereditary Peers will in due course come to the end of their time, but that is not my position. As a matter of fact, I am not opposed in principle to House of Lords reform; indeed, I am not opposed in principle to what is proposed in the government draft Bill being considered by the Joint Select Committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Richard. When and if full reform is achieved, the hereditary Peers will of course come to the end of their time.
This Bill—the part of it that we are now to consider first—includes ending the by-elections. The by-elections which were agreed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, and my noble friend, now the Marquess of Salisbury, secured the passage of the 1999 Act. Had those changes not been agreed that Bill would not have been passed—or at least it could have been passed only with the provisions of the Parliament Act, which I do not think that anyone was considering at the time. My noble friend’s Bill therefore seeks to undermine and destroy a clear and categorical undertaking that the by-elections would remain in place until full reform was achieved. This Bill is by no means full reform. Indeed, removing the clauses on the Appointments Commission, as my noble friend now proposes, further removes the Bill from any possibility of being described as House of Lords reform. As one noble Lord said in our previous debate, this was House of Lords improvement. It is hardly that. Above all, it undermines a clear and categorical undertaking given at the time of the passage of the 1999 Act and which has been repeated and agreed by numerous Ministers in almost every Administration since that time.
I therefore ask my noble friend whether he is really determined to take the Bill through—if he can, in the teeth of the opposition of some of us—
Lord Trefgarne
But no doubt with the support of others as well. This is in the context of a major government Lords reform proposition which is now before the Joint Select Committee and which is, I submit to your Lordships, the right way to proceed.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I beg to move that the Question be now put.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
I was going to put the Question in any case. The Question is that the House do now resolve itself into a Committee upon the Bill. As many as are of that opinion will say Content.
The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I think, on the voices, that the Contents have it.
Motion agreed.
Clause 10 : Exclusion of hereditary peers
Amendment 118
Lord Cobbold
“(5) Nothing in this Part shall disqualify an hereditary peer from being proposed to the Commission under section 4.”
Lord Cobbold
My Lords, I was not expecting this brief amendment to come so early in the debate. It explains itself and states that in the future, when hereditary Peers no longer are here by right, they can nevertheless take another responsibility. I beg to move.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, makes a perfectly reasonable point. I am not sure that the amendment is actually required in the Bill but I am very happy to accept it.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, for reasons that will now be self-evident to your Lordships, I do not agree that the clause—or any other clause, for that matter—should remain part of this Bill. This clause is particularly difficult, as several noble Lords have mentioned.
Viscount Astor
My Lords, perhaps I may ask my noble friend Lord Steel a question that is germane to the way in which he has reordered proceedings. As my noble friend Lord Trefgarne said, a committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is looking at the reform of your Lordships' House. We wish that well. When one looks at the Bill that is now proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, one can only assume that he has had an indication that House of Lords reform will not happen in this Parliament and that this Bill is a way of achieving partial reform instead. That is enormously disappointing, because those of us who are in favour of House of Lords reform do not want any Government to use this Bill as an excuse for reform not to happen. Will the noble Lord address that issue when he winds up on this clause?
Lord Dubs
My Lords, one is judged all too often by the company one keeps. I want to make it clear that the reason why my name is added to those who oppose Clause 10 has to do with a wider purpose which relates to Part 1. Therefore, I dissent entirely from the arguments that have been made so far on the clause stand part debate.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I would like the clause to remain in the Bill. I say that on a straight point of principle because in 1999 many of us who disapproved of much of the House of Lords Act 1999 were assured that 92 hereditary Peers would remain in this House until there was a major reform of the House of Lords. Clearly, this Bill does not satisfy that criterion. When we last debated this last year, my noble friend Lord Steel argued that it did. He said that he had the support of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, who was the Lord Chancellor in 1999, who had said that this Bill met the criteria that he had in mind for the second phase of reform of the House of Lords. However, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde pointed out that, notwithstanding that, it would have been unlikely that an agreement such as was reached in 1999 would have been reached with my noble friend had he known that this Bill would have constituted the desired reform.
Things have changed since then, because my noble friend Lord Steel has changed his mind about the Appointments Commission. There is a misunderstanding about the Appointments Commission. In a couple of conversations that I had during the Division, people who voted for my noble friend’s Motion were of the opinion that the Appointments Commission would not be discussed. It will. It is in the Bill. There are amendments to it. Regardless of whether it comes first or last, it will still be discussed. If my noble friend succeeds in removing Part 1, which covers the Appointments Commission, this will certainly not be a Bill to reform the House of Lords. That goes quite against the 1999 agreement. We agreed to that important principle—with hindsight, some of us against our better judgment; I should not have agreed; I should have continued to fight the cause of a proper reform of the House of Lords, a full reform to an elected Chamber, which is what I support. A number of very good working hereditary Peers left this House on an agreement. That agreement will be breached today if the clause is removed from the Bill. To me, that is totally unacceptable.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I recognise the grievance expressed by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. I understand why they feel as strongly as they do. Indeed, they erect their grievance into a point of principle. With great respect to them, I do not think that it really is a point of principle, but even if it is, there is a more important point of principle: a principle that we were reminded of a little earlier by the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby. We need to consider the reputation of this House. I speak as someone who holds individual hereditary Peers in enormous respect and personal affection. I recognise the quality of the work that they do as working Peers in this House, but I believe that the people of this country cannot see a rational justification in 2011 for the hereditary principle as a basis for membership of the legislature. It is 12 years since that agreement was made. In the interests of the reputation of this House, we need to reconsider the position. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, has been entirely right to include the provisions in the Bill.
I also note that the Bill would treat hereditary Peers who are Members of this House with the respect and courtesy that is proper. There is no suggestion that they should all be swept away in one fell swoop. The proposition is that over time, as nature takes its course, the hereditary Peers would disappear from the legislature. That is a decent, practical and proper way to proceed. I very much hope that the House will agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood.
Lord Elton
My noble friends Lord Trefgarne and Lord Caithness have made points that resonate strongly with me and with several other noble Lords. It is perfectly true that we are now in this position by the consent of a large number of our former noble friends—they are still our noble friends but they are no longer Members of this House—on the strict understanding that the rearguard would remain until a satisfactory position had been reached. That is a point of principle. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said very nice things about hereditary Peers, but fine words butter few Peers. We are here on an honourable understanding built on the understanding of many others who served this House for a very long time.
Why, therefore, do I support the Bill—as I do with a heavy heart? It seems to me that the real basic principle is not to do with undertakings that we have been given or the perception of the British public at the present time, it is the protection of the British people from their future Governments down the generations to come. The House of Commons, for various reasons, is now on occasion firmly in the grip of the Government of the day. We saw that very clearly in 2003. I would love to expand on that, but your Lordships want to get on.
The same circumstances would automatically arise if this were to be an elected House. We have to try to find a means by which an acceptable House remains without being replaced by an elected House. Reform is necessary, but it must not be a House made up of people who can be removed by the Whips of any governing party at their whim by deselection. That being so, we have to find something that is workable and acceptable. It seems to me quite possible that my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s heroic efforts to forge something acceptable from the draft Bill at present before his Committee may fail. What emerges may not be acceptable; in fact I very much doubt that it will. That being so, the search will be on, if time permits, for something else. If that something else is already here and working, there is a good chance that it will last. Therefore, I have to swallow my pride in the past and my affection for the present and leave my loyalty to the British people and to this sad but necessary device.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, I am very pleased to follow the noble Lords, Lord Elton and Lord Howarth of Newport. I do not accept the general point that they are making about the Government’s Bill, but that is not before your Lordships' House today. We face a specific set of proposals from my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood and supported by many colleagues across the House. Since Second Reading, we have had many expressions of support for Clause 10 and for the Bill generally. It is important to remind your Lordships that they have come from all parts of the House.
I read the two-day debate in June on the White Paper and draft Bill, during which a whole range of views was expressed about this Bill as being the right way forward in the transitional period. This is not an exclusive list, but support came from the noble Baronesses, Lady Boothroyd, Lady Noakes, Lady Taylor of Bolton and Lady Royall of Blaisdon, the noble Lords, Lord Wakeham, Lord Bilimoria, Lord Low of Dalston, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market, Lord Elder, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, Lord Cobbold, Lord Howarth of Newport, Lord Lucas, Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Lord Stewartby, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, Lord Gilbert and Lord Lyell, together with the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, and the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow. There was a great range of support to make progress along the lines proposed by my noble friend and included in the clause. I, therefore, want to address the question that Clause 10 stand part.
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, rightly makes the point that we are not here to discuss the Government’s Bill today. I shall repeat a point, if I may, which I made in an earlier debate. It does not seem to me that the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, in any way pre-empts the Government’s Bill.
Lord Campbell of Alloway
On the question of the agreement: an agreement is an agreement. I have supported that agreement on three occasions. Of course, I am not a hereditary Peer but an agreement is an agreement, and I fully understood the circumstances in which it was made. I shall not take very much time today on anything, but this is a crucial matter for Members of this House and for the benefit of the House.
On the three occasions that I spoke on this, which is why I shall not speak at length, I was supported by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath who took exactly the same line as me. That is not the only occasion when that has happened. I did not vote because I could not possibly support the Motion but I could not oppose it either, because it was an opportunity for a relevant discussion of some importance and I was not prepared to deny that. I do not sit on these Benches and not vote as a rule, but this was a very difficult situation.
On this question, which is an agreement, it must be kept until a substantial reform is before the House. Without being critical, I am not concerned what any noble Lord says about committees that he sits on, however interesting it may be. What matters is the view that the House takes on what a committee says.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, I question whether the agreement made by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, in 1999 means that hereditary Peers have a veto—like Mr Gromyko—for as long as one can see ahead. The 92 hereditary Peers will be here for many years. When most of us are dead there will still be hereditary Peers. As Keynes said:
“In the long run we are all dead”.
This is a generous Bill. We cannot go slower than saying that we will suspend by-elections. It is a pity that the noble Marquess is not here today. He made a very clever arrangement in 1999 and got sacked by Mr William Hague as leader of the Conservative Peers for his efforts. An agreement made in 1999 cannot surely apply for all time until there is a substantial change, which some people are sceptical about coming any time soon. Does the noble Lord really think that that gives people a veto, as it were, to interpret this for the foreseeable future?
Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, I have a question that is relevant to what was said. It was not an agreement for all time, if the noble Lord will accept that, but an agreement until a certain event took place, which was a substantive amendment of the constitution. That was the agreement. Forgive me for saying this as I do not want to contradict the noble Lord, but I can assure him and a lot of other Members of the House that this was not an agreement for all time.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is concerned that the general public find various aspects of our arrangements ludicrous, which brings the House into disrepute. The general public give very little thought to what this House does. Because the media think that Parliament consists entirely of another place, they do not hear very much about what we do and therefore do not think about us.
Much is continually being said about the ludicrousness of the hereditary Peers’ elections. It is said that they bring us into disrepute. I do not deny that. However, the principal thing that is ludicrous about the elections is that the electorate is only the hereditary Peers. In the case of Labour and Liberal Democrat elections, two or three Peers vote for many more candidates. That could be simply remedied by making the electorate all the Peers in the party. With hindsight, I believe that is how it should have been.
When stage 2 of the reform of this House has been enacted and comes into force, the 92 should be prepared to go. If any or all of them are offered life baronetcies by the Government, it should be up to them whether they accept them. As I have said before, for us hereditary Peers to be party to abolishing the elections would stick in my gullet. It is tantamount to saying to our erstwhile colleagues, who were so meanly and cavalierly sacked in 1999, and whose only hope of either getting back themselves or ensuring that their heirs did was to be elected: “I’m all right, Jack, and as far as you're concerned, hard cheese”. That is not on.
Lord Northbrook
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway in his recollection of events. The deal with the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, and the Lord Chancellor was done in 1999 on Privy Council terms and was not to be overturned unless substantial reform of the House was to be done. Like the noble Lord, I remember the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, confirming this from the Front Bench only three or four years ago.
Lord Elton
My Lords, the agreement was made by the Front Benches in the Chamber: it is all in Hansard. What was said in secret in the Privy Council was preparatory to that. The records are clear in Hansard.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein
My Lords, my name is on the amendment. I apologise for arriving late; I had a medical appointment, as happens all too frequently these days. I support what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. He was right that the deal made by the then Lord Chancellor and the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, now Marquess of Salisbury, to maintain 90 hereditary Peers was only a temporary measure until such time as there was full-scale reform of the House—which we still await. The House of Commons had about seven options to choose from and in its wisdom—or lack of it—chose to throw them all out. Therefore we are in this strange impasse. I wonder how long it will go on.
I made a proposal to the Wakeham Commission in 1999 that there should be an upper age limit in the House of Lords. I thought that it was a sensible suggestion. Unfortunately I am in breach of my own recommendation as I have now passed that age. Therefore, it is high time that we moved ahead and got on with the reform that I hope will one day happen.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, I can remember the debate: I took part in it quite extensively. The agreement or promise was not made by the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne; it was a commitment made from the Front Bench by the then Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg. I remember his words. He said that his promise would be binding in honour on all the Privy Council. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, all Privy Counsellors present, including the noble Lord, Lord Steel, should be bound by the oath and promise given from the Front Bench.
The agreement was that a group of hereditaries would be left—which many people did not want—until there was further democratic reform of the House of Lords. The word “democratic” was used quite often. I know that that is not acceptable to some people, but that was what was decided. Therefore, until the other place sorts out democratic reform, it is not our place to pre-empt it and hope to slip it in through the back door.
I take to task the noble Lord, Lord Elton. He seems to think that if we were elected, the whole thing would be a disaster. There are many parliamentary democracies that elect both Houses, under different systems. There are mechanisms by which one can make sure that it is not a complete disaster. The challenge is that if this House ceases to have a sufficiently large elected element, the next time we have a row that is taken as far as the Parliament Act, the other place will say, “You do not have democratic legitimacy any longer. You do not have the authority to change laws because you are not elected in a democracy”. They will remove the residual powers of the House of Lords to alter legislation. That will happen at some time in the next 10 to 20 years; it depends how big the clash is and how frightened we are of pushing things almost to the Parliament Act limit, with the ping-pong going on too long.
Once that authority has been lost, we will become like—I think—the Norwegian Parliament: a talking shop. There will be no point to us; we will become a club for people of great honour. When that happens, it will be a sad day for democracy. What worries me—I know that it worries other noble Lords—is that there are 170 people in the current parliamentary party in the House of Commons who have an appointment in the Executive. Which way round is it? Is Parliament setting the rules for the Executive, or is the Executive tail wagging the dog? Until we sort out proper checks and balances, we cannot afford to go non-elected in this House.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, as secretary of the All-Party Parliamentary British-Norwegian Group, I must correct what the noble Earl said. The Norwegian Parliament is not a talking shop; it is a single-chamber assembly that has a great deal of authority and status, and a great deal of history. For the noble Earl to describe it in the way he did was most unfortunate.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, I apologise for my remarks. I know that there is one such Parliament; I should not have mentioned a name. No offence was intended.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I will briefly raise a few points. I am very proud to be a Privy Counsellor. However, Clause 10 is not about the abolition of hereditary Peers today, tomorrow or whenever the Bill may be accepted. We are talking about a very gradual diminution in the number of hereditary Peers. Therefore, as a Privy Counsellor, I do not feel that I have any conflict of interest in voting for Clause 10.
Lord Trefgarne
Perhaps I could suggest to the noble Baroness that the by-elections were part of the deal agreed between my noble friend—now the Marquess of Salisbury—and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg. Her Government, of whom she was then a distinguished member, signed up to the deal.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I was a very proud member of my Government, but I was not a member of the Government at that time. As to hereditary Peers, I accept what the noble Lord says, but I believe that we are part of an evolutionary process. Today is the anniversary of the introduction of the first four life Peers in 1958. Since that time, the House has evolved, and our debate today is part of that evolution. I see absolutely no conflict between discussion of these issues today and discussion of the Bill before the Joint Committee.
Like my noble friend Lord Howarth, I recognise the grievances expressed by hereditary Peers in the Chamber. Like other noble Lords, I have huge respect and affection for the work of those noble Lords. However, while I respect and very much like the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, I have to disagree with her. When people think about this Chamber and its composition, they do not understand why we still have hereditary Peers. I understand about the agreement, and I understand what is happening. I must say to the noble Lady that yesterday I had the privilege of speaking with 20 Chevening scholars from India, the brightest and the best of the Indian subcontinent, and when we talked about the composition of this House, they simply did not understand why we still have hereditary Peers. When we have things such as the Arab spring and we are nurturing the new democracies in the Middle East, to still retain the election of hereditary Peers does not seem logical or proper. For that reason, I certainly wish to support the retention of Clause 10, which I believe to be an important, indeed, essential part of the Bill.
The Earl of Erroll
As a hereditary Peer, I do not have a grievance about anything and if I have to go, I have to go, but my purpose here is to ensure further democratic reform. That is why I was put here. This is not democratic reform. Until that comes, I should stay.
Lord Marlesford
I think of two very simple facts. First, hereditary Peers who are sitting in this House are in no sense discriminated against as a result of Clause 10. Secondly, it is perfectly obvious that the arrangement for by-elections was always intended to be an interim one. The mistake, in a sense, was not to have had it ending at the end of that Parliament or, conceivably, the following Parliament because it was intended to make use of the reservoir of experience which we had, needed and wanted to keep. We have done it extremely successfully. Least there should have been a too rapid decline, there was an arrangement for temporary topping up.
In answer to the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, it is so clearly for the reason she gives that the topping-up system is a farce. It is undemocratic, and I suggest that Clause 10 is a means of moving on to democracy, which is the reason why it should stand.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
I said that I agree that the topping-up system is a farce, but it could easily become not a farce if the electorate were all the Peers in the party, not just the hereditary Peers in the party.
Lord Selsdon
My Lords, I have been in your Lordships' House for a period of time, and I refer you to Standing Order No. 8. The problem with your Lordships is that you have very little knowledge of Standing Orders or precedents within the House. I am an elected hereditary Peer under an Act of Parliament, as are others. It has been quite convenient for people over a long period of time to drop the word “elected”, but it was an election. That was an agreement binding in honour on Privy Council terms, and should anyone in your Lordships' House wish to know the background, please just send me an e-mail or letter and I will give you a copy of all the submissions I have made over the past 10 or 20 years. We also take precedence according to the ancienty of our degree. Therefore, I can give way to the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, because he is slightly more ancient than me in the date of his Letters Patent.
There was an attempt for a long period of time to ignore the fact that there was an election. I do not support the replacement of current people by the proposed system. What I suggested was that all those hereditary Peers who would like to enter the House should have their names submitted to the Appointments Commission for consideration not as a hereditary Peer but as someone who might make a good contribution in future.
I did not really approve of the election process, but I have to admit I was wrong because the quality of the people who have come into this House as a result of those elections is very high. They have a great knowledge, and they make a great contribution. They become what your Lordships will understand to be working Peers although, as I have pointed out in this House on previous occasions, there is no such thing as a working Peer. A Peer sits here not with a job, other than the 10 who are paid, but with a duty and a responsibility. Certain hereditary elements put upon you a greater feeling of duty. Of course I am here because my grandfather was Postmaster-General. It does not matter; that was the way, indirectly, when my father died, but all my family have been in public life. Those of us who have been in public life have a feeling of duty which overwhelms everything else. I do not approve of the Steel Bill. I believe that we should still wait for the government proposals, and I will support all those proposals.
If anyone goes on saying that I am not elected, I am far more legitimate than those people appointed by patronage. At the moment, we have an overwhelming number of people who do not know each other, do not know the rules and do not know what to do. We should be asking what the House of Lords as it is today should be doing in the community and what initiatives it should be taking, instead of squabbling among ourselves about the future. We have a major economic crisis, we have a whole range of problems and within this House we have an amazing collection of people who do not know each other’s abilities. As noble Lords may know, I have a background on every Peer. You could not assemble these 830 or 840 people, but we fail again to understand communication. Half of them do not have PCs, and we are in a world of electronic communication. I believe this debate should go on. I would regard the Steel Bill as a White Paper or a Steel paper. When I first met the noble Lord, Lord Steel, on the Council of Europe many years ago, he tried to persuade me to become a Liberal, partly because of my grandfather. I think the noble Lord has done a good job. He is quite a crafty worker, and this is a bit of good craftsmanship, but it is too crafty by half.
Lord Trefgarne
I hope I may be allowed to explain shortly but clearly why I disagree that this clause should remain in the Bill. Back in 1999, the House consisted of some 700 hereditary Peers and 560 or thereabouts life Peers plus the Bishops and the Law Lords, so the vast majority were hereditary Peers. When the Government Bill came forward, it was to remove all those hereditary Peers, each and every one, all the 700. Never in history, surely, was there a Government seeking to remove more than half of one of the Chambers of Parliament by legislation, but the hereditary Peers recognised that there was a case to be made and in the end an arrangement was reached between, as we have heard, my noble friend, now the Marquess of Salisbury, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg. The hereditary Peers did not have to be persuaded by that argument, but they were. The result was that that Bill passed.
Had that agreement not been reached, the Bill would almost certainly not have passed. Indeed, there were a good many life Peers who were not in favour of it. I believe it would not have passed although it could, no doubt, have been forced through with the Parliament Act. However, there is room for more than one respectable view about whether that was possible. The deal that was then done, the arrangements that were agreed between my noble friend and the noble and learned Lord were to the effect that 90 hereditary Peers would remain, re-elected as necessary as they passed on, and two hereditary Peers—the two great officers of state—would come ex officio, so to speak. That was the arrangement, and the arrangement was to remain in place until House of Lords reform was complete. By no stretch of the imagination does this Bill represent complete House of Lords reform. Therefore, in accordance with the undertaking then reached, this clause ought not to be included, and I hope my noble friend Lord Steel will not insist upon it.
Lord True
My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships. If it is any consolation to the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, having to attend a medical appointment is not only a function of what age you are. I apologise to your Lordships that I, too, was attending one this morning.
I trespass on your Lordships’ indulgence simply because when those discussions were taking place in 1999 I was there as a humble agent of the discussions and perhaps I can make some comments from the standpoint of one who was actively involved in some of the official negotiations which were supporting negotiations taking place.
I offer no advice to any noble Lords on the decision that they may or may not want to take on the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood. There has been comment about the statement made from the Dispatch Box by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, about the agreement, which the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has described quite accurately as being binding in honour. Honour is a very personal matter, and I do not think it is for anyone to say to other people how they should interpret what being bound in honour actually means.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, said earlier that we do not understand procedures. Presumably he was pointing his criticism in this direction. Is the noble Lord, Lord True, not aware that one Parliament cannot bind its successor?
Lord True
I am certainly aware of that. As I understand the way in which your Lordships' House operates, the decisions made in it are made by individual Peers reaching a decision on the matters before them. I was hoping to shed some light on the decision that is about to be taken; I am not going to go into the constitutional theory of binding succession.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine, said that the agreement was binding in honour, not on Privy Counsellors—that would be nonsensical—but,
“on all those who have come to give it their assent”.—[Official Report, 30/3/99; col. 207.]
It was passed by overwhelming majorities in both Houses of Parliament on the amendment put forward by the late Lord Weatherill. For my own part, I lent that agreement my assent, although I was not a Member of your Lordships' House, and I therefore consider myself bound in honour.
Why was that agreement made? That has been very clearly expressed. It was made to enable the Labour Government to achieve a long-standing aspiration of the Labour Party to reform your Lordships' House, and I think that most people in your Lordships' House believe that this House is better as a result, although it is arguable whether the Bill would have passed without the Parliament Act had that agreement not been made. It was assented to by the majority of the Peers then in the House, 666 of whom then left the House to enable that legislation to take place, on the legitimate expectation that we would be proceed to—to use the term that was used then—stage two.
Stage two is not defined, and when things are not defined, inconveniences arise, but no one suggested that stage two should be election, or necessarily appointment, or a mixed House. However, everyone in both Houses of Parliament agreed at that time that we would proceed towards stage two. So far as I am concerned, the Bill before us is, as has been said today, in no sense stage two. Stage two could be any of the things I have described, but we have not reached that point, so in those terms I—I cannot speak for others—consider the agreement that was entered into as binding in honour.
I might say to the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, that the nature of the elections can certainly be described by some as being odd. At the time, the Conservative Party and the representatives of the Cross Benches proposed in talks that the arrangements should not be as they are now but should be more akin to a representative peerage and more like some of the other results. Representatives of the Labour Government at that time insisted on the present arrangement, and we, for our part, agreed to that. It was all part of the give and take of the agreement, and we live with the compromise.
Having troubled your Lordships, I will perhaps sit down.
Lord True
I note as a new Peer the pleasure that that gives to some, but having had that slightly disobliging reaction perhaps I may sit down with a disobliging remark. One of the things that we always have to bear in mind as parliamentarians is the end result of the legislation that we propose to pass. It does not escape my notice that the end result of this clause, if passed, would be, albeit over time, that an all-appointed House of Lords would come into being. As I said in a recent debate on this subject, I believe that that is a perfectly honourable aspiration. I notice a congruity between the many supporters of this legislation and support for the end of an all-appointed House. That would not escape the notice of the country or indeed of another place, and we cannot agree that stage two is an all-appointed House by passing this Bill.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, the noble Lord mentions Lord Weatherill in support of his claim about what happened, but is he not aware that Lord Weatherill subsequently produced a Bill for the suspension of the hereditary by-elections?
Lord True
My Lords, I was describing to the House—I could do so at greater length but this is not the place to do it—how Lord Weatherill, as well as the late Earl of Carnarvon and the noble Lord, Lord Marsh, proposed what was set out in 1999 after negotiation. I am referring now to the conditions of 1999 that led to the situation that is now before us, and I believe, as I have said, that I am bound in honour by those negotiations.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, the Question before the House is that Clause 10 stand part of the Bill. If I may, I will reply to the debate. I think my noble friend Lord Caithness—
The Earl of Caithness
I am very surprised that we have not heard from my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire. What is the Government’s view on this? Do they think that this Bill is of such depth and importance that it constitutes the stage two to which my noble friend Lord True has referred, or do they think that we should be bound by the agreement of 1999? As I said, it is very surprising that we have not heard from our government Front Bench on this.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Government are not in favour of undertaking piecemeal reform. We are moving with all deliberate speed towards second stage reform. I am sure that all Members of this House have read the Draft House of Lords Reform Bill. I have now read the transcript of the first two meetings of the Joint Committee considering it. As noble Lords know, we are proposing a wholly or mainly elected reformed second Chamber, which will of course end hereditary membership, allowing for hereditaries to stand for election or to put themselves forward for appointment.
Perhaps I might be allowed to add that I happened yesterday to speak to a cousin of the late Lord Onslow. She reminded me that he liked to say that he saw absolutely no reason why the historical accident that one of your ancestors had got drunk with Pitt—he used a rather more evocative term than “drunk”—should qualify you for membership of a House of the legislature.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, perhaps I may reply to the debate on whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. My noble friend Lord Caithness and others made the perfectly reasonable point that there was an agreement in 1999. I understand that. I thought that he was well answered by my noble friend Lord Elton in a very honest speech as a hereditary Peer saying why we should now move on. Frankly, looking back at Hansard, perhaps I may quote one or two phrases from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, who was then the Lord Chancellor. He said:
“The transitional House will be of short duration”.—[Official Report, 26/10/99; col. 169.]
He also said:
“The transitional House which will be created as a result of the Bill will be exactly that: transitional and not permanent … The notion that the Government would even contemplate the notion of the Weatherill amendment becoming a permanent settlement, as distinct from a short-term compromise, is fanciful”.—[Official Report, 11/5/99; col. 1092.]
That was 12 years ago. I do not think that anyone in the House at that time, and I was there, ever thought that 12 years later we would still be holding these by-elections. That is the point which Clause 10 seeks to address. We are now further on. We have had many by-elections. No one is suggesting that we get rid of hereditary Peers or that those who came in by by-elections are less worthy than anyone else. They have all made a great contribution to the work of this House.
The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, is correct. By-elections that take place among the whole House for a hereditary Peer just pass muster and in the case of the Conservative Party and the Cross-Benches, less so, but there are some numbers. But, frankly, when a Labour or Lib Dem hereditary Peer dies, the numbers are ridiculous. I do not see that in the 21st century we can possibly stand up and say that people become Members of the British Parliament by heredity and election by three or four people. It is simply nonsense. In order to bring that nonsense to an end, Clause 10 should stand part of the Bill.
The Earl of Caithness
Will my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire answer the question that I posed to him. Do the Front Bench, and he as spokesman for the Government, think that this Bill constitutes the necessary reform for the removal of by-elections?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I understood that I had already answered. The Government prefer thoroughgoing reform and we are moving in that direction with the current draft Bill. We hope that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and others will give full support to that Bill when it comes through and expedite constructive discussion of it when it reaches this House.
The Earl of Caithness
“Name of the House
On a date to be specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State, which shall not be before 1st January 2020, the House of Lords shall be known as the Senate of the United Kingdom.”
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the name of the House is a hugely important issue. Now that the final ethnic cleansing of hereditary Peers that started in 1999 is going to take place, in my view it is appropriate that this House should no longer be called the House of Lords. The question is: when is a suitable date to make the change? Why should it be called the House of Lords when a section of Peers have been refused entry to it? It is absolutely fine as long as a number of hereditary Peers are here, but as a result of the vote it is now clear that the 1999 agreement has been shredded, and in due course the number of hereditary Peers will drop to zero. The purpose of this amendment is to take account of that situation—
Lord Cormack
Is my noble friend really suggesting to the House that the only legitimate Peers are hereditary Peers?
The Earl of Caithness
No, I am saying that a section of Peers in the broader sense will be prohibited from sitting in this House and therefore it is not representative of the House of Lords. The House of Lords will not be representative of all the Peers. I know that my noble friend is very keen to get rid of the hereditary Peers. After achieving that goal, it is quite right that the name of the House should change. That is the reason for the amendment. The question is: when is a suitable time for that to take place? I have suggested 1 January 2020, but of course I am open to suggestions. There might actually be a book as to who is going to be the last hereditary Peer to sit in the House of Lords. Let us hope that, long before that, we have a fully elected House of Lords and that it can then properly change its name. But as I believe the majority of Peers in this House wish to retain an appointed, unelected, undemocratic system, I think it is appropriate that the name of this Chamber should change. I beg to move.
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, earlier I expressed the view that nothing in this Bill pre-empts further discussion on the government Bill. Surely the noble Earl’s amendment does precisely that.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, when I looked through the list of amendments that had been tabled earlier in the week, particularly the very large number tabled by my noble friends Lord Trefgarne and Lord Caithness, I said to myself, “I have been in both Houses of Parliament for a number of years but I have never seen such a collection of wrecking amendments”. Wrecking amendments are not a formal part of the machinery of this House, but one recognises what one sees. If I may say with great respect to my noble friend Lord Caithness, there could not be a better example of a wrecking amendment. My noble friends have made it abundantly clear that they do not want this Bill to pass, and that is what they are up to—
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am sorry but I will not give way because I am going to sit down in a second. I do not think that this House should allow itself to be deflected in this way. My noble friend Lord Tyler made a good point in the earlier debate, which is that it does not do this House any credit to become involved in the sort of shenanigans that we are being subjected to today by my two noble friends.
I end with one other point, and I hope that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester will agree with it. I was brought up to love the sinner and hate the sin. My noble friends remain my friends, but I think that they are making a most disastrous mistake.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, I understand exactly what the noble Earl is saying. It may well be that some of us are going to relearn the process of wasting time in order to avoid a Bill being passed. As the noble Lord says, that may be the motive behind all these amendments. But I do not consider it right for him to say that this is a wrecking amendment.
How can an amendment to change the name of this House in 2020 possibly be a wrecking amendment? It may not be an amendment that will find favour with many people, but it is certainly not a wrecking amendment. But as far as tactics are concerned, it does this House no good for Members to cast aspersions on the motives of other Members. I am sure that all of us who have views on this Bill have good motives. Earlier today the noble Lord, Lord Steel, was accused of being discourteous in withdrawing Clauses 1 to 9. He was not being discourteous; he was using the well-known political ploy of keeping your opponents guessing. There is nothing wrong in that. So let us not start chucking motives around.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
Perhaps I may say to my noble friend Lord Caithness that he and I are in agreement on one issue. If and when we get to that point in the Government’s own proposals, I will certainly vote to change the name to that of a senate, so I agree with him on that. But it is irrelevant to this Bill. The noble Earl cannot pluck a date out of thin air and say, “Let’s make it 2020”. It depends on when the Government’s proposals come into effect. The amendment is irrelevant to this Bill, and therefore I hope that the noble Earl will withdraw it.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein
My Lords, before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, I was very interested in the suggestion that he makes. Irrelevant of the date, when the royal commission headed by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, sat, I made a written proposal. Included in that proposal was a suggestion that the House should in due course change its name, if we were to have an elected House, to precisely that—a senate. That is what other countries have for their upper Chamber, and it seemed a very sensible way. It also has classical connotations. By no means can this constitute a wrecking amendment; it is merely a suggestion, and I think that it is rather a good one. I hope that it will come to pass. I find myself in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Steel.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, just to comment on what the noble Viscount has said, the amendment is not relevant to this Bill. It has been put in to enable a debate to take place. Whether people agree with it or not, it does nothing to further the remaining clauses of the Bill, of which this House seems to be in total support. That is my point, and anybody who puts amendments down for that purpose seems to me to be tabling what is properly described as a wrecking amendment.
Lord Howe of Aberavon
My Lords, one very short reason for refraining from supporting this proposition is the fact that the Welsh Assembly is known as Senedd, which has been adopted because it is the original meaning of the word senate. Senedd in Welsh means a “law-making Assembly”. If we were to become an English law-making Assembly, it does not seem to me suitable. Senedd and senate would be capable of confusion with each other, so let us for heaven’s sake stay where we are.
Lord Howarth of Newport
It seems to me that the term “senate” has a republican ring about it, and I am not sure that that is what the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, may seriously intend for the future.
Lord Elton
I may well be wrong, because my Latin is rather out of date now, but I think that the root of the word is the same as that for “senex”, which means an old man. That is very appropriate to this House.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, will reflect on the word “shenanigans”, which he used a few moments ago. I take some exception to that description. We described at some length—and I will not repeat what I said then—why we objected to Clause 10 stand part. That was not shenanigans; it was responsible and respectable and a decent argument. I take exception to the words used by my noble friend, and I hope that he will withdraw them.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, I would like to make two, I hope, perfectly sensible points. In previous discussions, the main reason given for removing hereditary Peers at this point was that the public thought that it was an anachronism, that it looked silly and they did not understand what it was about, and all that sort of stuff. If it is about public image, I recommend that we should change the name of our upper House to senate, which is universally understood globally and is taught in politics lessons. That would be the perfectly logical thing to do to pair with getting rid of hereditary Peers. What amuses me is that those who are very keen to get rid of hereditary Peers because it taints this House are also very keen to hang on to the title. I really do not understand that; it is just not consistent and logical.
The other point that I would make is that in all my points that I am arguing, I am arguing against my continued presence in this House much more effectively than if we put this Bill through, whereby I would roll on until I died, with luck—whereas actually I am trying to force an earlier departure by getting a proper democratic assembly. When we go democratic, it will be easier to understand if it is called a senate. Whatever happens, renaming it as a senate would be much clearer and would give a much better image of the House to the public.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I wish it to be on record that many of us who believe that there should be a change of name in future, at the appropriate stage, be it an all-appointed or all-elected House, cannot support the noble Earl’s amendment because it is inappropriate at this stage, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said. So casting aspersions about people wanting to hang on to titles is out of place, with that explanation about the reasoning behind our choices.
The Earl of Erroll
Everyone would retain their title, because it is an honour given to them. The change of name affects the place—this House—and I think that it would be much clearer if we started just being a senate.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I listened particularly carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Wright of Richmond, since your former Permanent Secretary is always somebody you listen to with great care, although one might not always agree with a former Permanent Secretary, or even from time to time with a Permanent Secretary. I tabled this amendment because I wanted to look at the situation that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, mentioned when he intervened. He agreed with me that the name needs to change, but do not let us do it now—let us wait for the government Bill. That is my argument about the Steel Bill—let us wait for the government Bill. It is in a Joint Committee.
My noble friend Lord Steel is a very crafty politician, much craftier than me. He has been down the other end and learnt in the real mill of politics. One is just a humble hereditary Peer. But I would use exactly the same argument that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, has used against me against his whole Bill. Let us wait for the government Bill. But what happens if we do not get a government Bill? We have taken long enough to get to this stage of reform of the House of Lords. What happens if the hereditary Peers die out and this has not been faced? I wonder how the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, sees that one being tackled.
As for my noble friend Lord Jenkin, he is entitled to his opinion. I do not comment on the amendments that he put forward on other Bills, and if he believes what he believes that is fine by me. The amendment is trying to resolve what undoubtedly many in the House see as a potential problem in future. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, that the House should be called a senate and that the sooner that it is fully reformed into an elected Chamber, the better. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Trefgarne
“Termination of membership of House of Lords
(1) Members of the House of Lords shall, subject to subsection (2), cease to be members after the end of the session of Parliament during which they have completed 15 years of membership.
(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), the period of time prior to the date on which this Act received the Royal Assent shall be treated as half its actual time.
(3) This section does not apply to any period of membership as a Lord Spiritual.”
Lord Trefgarne
If the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is not going to move the amendment, I shall do so, as is I believe in accordance with procedure.
This amendment results, if I may say so, from the shenanigans of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, in changing around the order of consideration. The amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, declines to move, which I now move on his behalf, relates to the earlier part of the Bill. We are now not considering that amendment because we have, apparently, deferred consideration of the earlier part of the Bill. That points to the difficulties created by what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, decided to do late last night in tabling his amendment, reordering consideration of the clauses. I do not intend to pursue the matter further, but I suggest to your Lordships that the reordering that your Lordships agreed to earlier today was not perhaps as straightforward as many noble Lords may have imagined. I beg to move.
Viscount Astor
My Lords, I wonder if I could ask a question of those constitutional experts, and I am sure there are many sitting in your Lordships' House today. We heard earlier that Clauses 1 to 9 will be debated after Clauses 10 to 19. If that is the case, will any noble Lord who has amendments listed in the Marshalled List, as this amendment is, be able to move any amendments to those clauses when we have already passed through the list of amendments that is before us?
Lord Goodhart
I should point out very briefly that Amendment 122 is listed in the same group as Amendment 119, which was withdrawn. It would be wholly appropriate if Amendment 122 was withdrawn also.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, today has been disappointing for many reasons, not least because amendments have been withdrawn. I had looked forward to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, explaining how he arrived at the magic figure of 15 years. That 15 years is in the government Bill, all the Government White Papers and so on. What is magical about 15 years? No one has explained it. I make the rather acid comment about the possible lifestyle of 15-year senators—or Peers or whatever—appointed: they will have five years to learn the job, five years to do the job and five years to look for a job.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, as we have been debating the problem of reordering the Bill at the last minute, will the Government be able to use this mechanism in considering the health Bill, which will be highly contentious? I can see huge opportunities for managing to mess people up with the order of amendments.
Lord Elton
My Lords, it will be important when we get to Amendment 123 to recall that the other amendments in the group—Amendments 4, 6, 58 and so on—will be highly relevant to that debate because they are consequential on Amendment 123. They will presumably be debated. Your Lordships will need to look at the earlier part of the Bill when considering Amendment 123 —as presumably noble Lords will.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it would not be appropriate to pursue the matter further at this point but have we not identified the confusion that has now been caused by my noble friend reordering consideration of the Bill?
Lord Hughes of Woodside
I am sorry to intervene again but the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, ought not to repeatedly turn his back when addressing the House.
Lord Trefgarne
Again I apologise to the noble Lord. As I was saying—I will say it again quickly—we are now dealing with the confusion caused by my noble friend Lord Steel insisting upon reordering the consideration of these clauses. I will not pursue the consideration of the amendment, which I shall withdraw.
The Earl of Caithness
Could we have an answer to the question posed by my noble friend Lord Astor? That is quite relevant to our future discussions. Can we come back to this amendment or to my consequential amendment—which we are about to come to—when we debate the original amendment from which these consequential ones flow?
Viscount Astor
My Lords, while my noble friend on the Front Bench receives some advice, perhaps I could help your Lordships. I have amendments to Clause 5 in Part 1 of the Bill. I am confused: should we come to Clause 5 after we have dealt with Amendments 10 to 19? Will I be able to move amendments to those clauses? If my noble friend has received some expert advice, I would be grateful if he could answer that question.
Lord Northbrook
My Lords, will I also be able to move Amendment 73, which refers to Section 10, in the same way?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, the House decided earlier today to take amendments in a certain order: that is, Clauses 10 to 19 and then Clauses 1 to 9. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, said that certain amendments were not to be moved. It seems difficult to move an amendment if it is not there in the first place, but that is the way it will be done. We are proceeding now with Clauses 10 to 19 and they will be followed by Clauses 1 to 9. Matters will be dealt with in order at that time.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, this is abusing procedure in a dangerous way. The noble Lord is saying that, should the Government wish to use the Steel mechanism on something such as the health Bill, they could reorder it in such a way that knocks out subsequent amendments because they are consequential on an earlier amendment to be moved later—and there would not be time to reschedule them. The whole of the amendment list should have been rejigged when this was proposed, in such a way that the consequential amendments were in the right order. This is an abuse of process. I do not like that sort of thing happening in Parliament, and certainly not in the Upper House.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, the House decided earlier this morning the order in which it wanted to discuss a Private Member’s Bill. When it comes to government Bills, noble Lords will recall—as on many days—that we have a commitment Motion and the order in which things are to be debated is listed. Often that is in numerical order but sometimes, for the convenience of the House, it is put in a different order. With government business—this is not government business—that is done some days before the business comes before the House.
Viscount Astor
My Lords, could my noble friend clarify this so that I am absolutely sure? As he rightly said, we are now debating Clauses 10 to 19 and following that we will debate Clauses 1 to 9. When that happens, will the House allow me to go back up the list of amendments and move, for example, Amendment 75 to Clause 5?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
Strictly speaking: yes, but that will of course depend on the amendment being put in the first place.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, before I withdraw the amendment—as I will do in a moment—is it not clear, following the Motion moved by my noble friend Lord Steel this morning and agreed by your Lordships, that we are now in a considerable state of disarray as far as these clauses and amendments are concerned? I am not particularly bright or talented but I have had the privilege of being a Member of your Lordships’ House for nearly 50 years. I cannot remember how many committees I have take part in or even led from the Dispatch Box. I have never found myself in this disarray before. Plainly, I think that noble Lords took the decision to reorder consideration of these clauses without the benefit of adequate advice. Did we not understand that the confusion now reigning would take place? I suspect that there is not much that we can do about it now unless we decided to adjourn for a moment to allow the clerks to reorder the Marshalled List. If that is not to happen—I do not suppose that it is—I shall beg leave, for now, to withdraw the amendment, unless, that is, my noble friend has some more to say.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
It may be helpful to read out paragraph 8.65 in the Companion:
“Each amendment on the marshalled list and each manuscript amendment is called in turn by the Lord on the Woolsack or in the Chair, subject only to pre-emption. An amendment which has been tabled need not be moved, but if none of the members named as supporters of the amendment moves it any other member may do so”.
That is quite clear on what can happen. Noble Lords will have noticed with care that, although I have been sat here for quite a time, I have not spoken. That is because this is private business. It is not government business and the House decided what to do. It was in the hands of the House and the House decided—there was a vote—that noble Lords would take the back half of the Bill first and then come to the front half. That was decided earlier today.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I of course accept that the House decided to agree to my noble friend Lord Steel’s Motion earlier today and that is that. I suggest that it might have been better had the Minister offered some advice on the result of agreeing that Motion while your Lordships discussed it. Be that as it may, he did not do so and we are now somewhat confused. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment that I moved on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)
If the noble Lord is going to speak to this amendment, he must move it.
Lord Dubs
I beg leave to move the amendment. It is part of a series of amendments intended to remove titles from those Members who wish to stay in the House. I am not sure that it will command very much support. I want to leave it for later in the Bill. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Astor
Viscount Astor
My Lords, this is a small amendment—so small that even my noble friend Lord Jenkin will not be able to accuse me of tabling a wrecking amendment. I say to him that the only time that I ever hear that phrase “wrecking amendment”, one could substitute it with, “This is an amendment that I do not agree with”. We sometimes hear that far too often.
Clause 12 is about:
“Permanent leave of absence by reason of failure to attend the House”.
I support the clause in principle. For noble Lords who are no longer able to attend your Lordships’ House, it seems to be sensible. However, my amendment concerns the clause which says that the House of Lords may,
“by Standing Order make provision for a member to be excluded”,
and then, by application, come back. There are Members of your Lordships’ House who perhaps get appointed to some important government post abroad, or for some reason are doing something so that they may or may not be able to attend. We certainly do not want to lose them.
In the Bill, the reason is deemed to be “sufficient merit” for subsection (1) not to apply. My amendment leaves out “sufficient” and inserts “reasonable”. Your Lordships’ House has always been governed by reason and reasonableness. There should not be arguments in the future as to whether something is or is not of “sufficient merit”. Who is to say, if a Member of your Lordships’ House is appointed an ambassador or a high commissioner abroad, as has happened in the past, whether that country being regarded as important is “sufficient”? If they are sent to be governor of Gibraltar, is that regarded as not “sufficient”? We should have a test that is based on a choice of words with which I would hope your Lordships feel more comfortable. That is why I inserted the word “reasonable”. I beg to move.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Astor has moved his reasonable amendment in a very reasonable manner. I, being a reasonable man, propose to accept it.
Viscount Astor
I am grateful to my noble friend for accepting my amendment.
The Earl of Caithness
“( ) A Member of the House of Lords who has taken leave of absence will not be subject to the provisions of this Part.”
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, now that this wonderful reasonable atmosphere has taken over the Committee, I have no doubt that my noble friend Lord Steel will also accept this amendment. It is a very simple amendment, because there is already a leave of absence. If somebody has genuinely taken a leave of absence under the existing system before the provisions of this Bill come into effect, why should they be subject to them?
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I did not envisage this. Even in my better moments, I had not thought that this was going to happen today. I am indeed grateful to my noble friend.
The Earl of Caithness
“Part 3ARetirementRetirement age
A member of the House of Lords shall not be entitled to receive a Writ of Summons after their 75th birthday.”
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I do not think that my noble friend will be quite as receptive to this amendment as he was to my last. We now face the problem that we have all been skirting around today, but which we have earlier debated on numerous occasions: the question of the size of this House.
It is hoped that a retirement system will encourage people to leave the House. I do not think that that is going to work at all. I do not see it working under the present system of leave of absence. Not many Peers have now taken it, although I have used a leave of absence when I was in my 20s; I was told that it was appropriate to do so if I was not going to be a regular attender in your Lordships’ House, so I did for three years. However, the procedures that we all followed then have fallen into disrepute, and it is not done to the same extent. There is a retirement scheme at the moment, and I understand that two of your Lordships have taken retirement, but I do not think that what my noble friend proposes in the Bill will work.
My noble friend Lord Trefgarne and I have tabled a new clause in Amendment 128, which states:
“A member of the House of Lords shall not be entitled to receive a Writ of Summons after their 75th birthday”.
It is important that the House plays a proper role in the legislative affairs of the nations. It can be debated whether the House is any better now than it was pre-1999; that is an argument into which I will not enter. However, as some of your Lordships may have read in the recent leaders, there has been some pretty unfavourable comment about how the House is behaving and working. Many of your Lordships have complained that there are far too many Peers, so the proposal that my noble friend and I have made is that there should be a retirement age of 75. Yes, we are undoubtedly going to lose some expertise from time to time, but the average age of this House is 69 according to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. I do not know of any other institution or corporate body where the average age is 69. I have now been here for 40 years, and I am still below the average age of the House. To me, that is an absolute nonsense. It has worked very well, I have enjoyed it and I am extremely grateful. However, in 2011, it is not a terribly good way. If the average age of the House is 69, it should be made younger.
My noble friend Lord Trefgarne and I have therefore tabled the amendment. It refers to the 75th birthday; I am open to arguments for 70 or even perhaps 80. But we should at least have this debate, which is really important because it will reduce the size of the House which has been a cause of concern to so many people. I beg to move.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Caithness is right. I am not going to suggest that we accept the amendment for the simple reason that the clauses that we have now passed put the matter in the hands of the Government. We have given statutory authority in accordance with the recommendation, which I am holding in my hand, from the all-party committee under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. Perhaps I may quote from that. He said:
“On the evidence of our extensive consultations, we are confident that there is a broad consensus in the House in support of a provision to enable members voluntarily to leave the House permanently, in order that the overall size of the House may be reduced as soon as possible. We hope that this broad consensus might now be taken as the starting point for a way forward … we are advised that legislation would, strictly speaking, be necessary to override the entitlement to a Writ of Summons”.
I am with my noble friend in his intent, but it is not right to try to prescribe today, in the course of a Committee stage, what the age should be. We should leave that to the Government and the consensus which the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested exists. If the Bill goes through, we will have given the Government the statutory authority. It will then be up to the Government by statutory instrument to come back to the House and produce a scheme which will enable the numbers in the House to be reduced. We should not do it in this arbitrary manner now.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, says that he does not want to do anything in an arbitrary manner. That may well be right as far as this proposal is concerned—although, frankly, I do not think that it is—but that is not the view that he has taken on other aspects of his Bill, when he has made it quite clear that he was not in the least bit interested in waiting for whatever the Government proposed, even though a Bill has been brought forward for consideration by the Joint Select Committee.
Confining my remarks precisely to the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Caithness, to which I have added my name, I think that the age of 75 is about right. At present, most judicial appointments—I think virtually all of them, including magistrates—have to retire at age 70. I do not think that there is any proposal that that younger age would be acceptable as far as your Lordships are concerned. Indeed, in answer to a question from me the other day, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, the Minister for Justice, said that this matter might be reconsidered in legislation next year. I happen to think that 75 would be a good age for magistrates, for judges of all the different courts and Members of your Lordships' House to retire. The amendment has some merit and some force and I hope that your Lordships will agree to it.
Lord Grenfell
My Lords, I am not sure that I agree with that. We have to be very careful in setting a limit. I declare an interest, being over 75, as one could say, “Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?” On the other hand, it is worth remembering that a respected demographer has recently told us that the person who is going to live to 150 has already been born. We have to take into account the fact that the pensionable age is now much higher than it was and that there is still a lot of life left in a lot of people who are aged 75. I agree that we need to reduce the numbers in the House, but this is not the way to go about it. There are other avenues to pursue to reduce the size of the House. I would be very wary of depriving it of the benefit of having some great experts. Under the proposal, when they had passed 75, they would not be invited to return in the subsequent Parliament.
Viscount Astor
My Lords, a previous proposed new clause was intended to get rid of your Lordships who cannot come to your Lordships' House; this amendment is intent on getting rid of some of your Lordships who do come to your Lordships' House and play a role in our proceedings.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said on an earlier amendment that elections to hereditary peerages surprise and confound those who do not understand the proceedings of your Lordships' House, which is certainly true. Another thing that confounds them is the fact that your Lordships’ Chamber is the second largest legislative Chamber in the world, second only to the Chinese National People’s Congress. It is quite frankly absurd for us to go along and defend the number that we have in this place compared with that in another place. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, mentioned that this House should do something to reform itself to give itself more respectability to the outside world and show that we understand the concerns. One of the concerns that are constantly expressed to me is the number of Members who sit in your Lordships' House. We need to do something about it.
Seventy-five might not be the right age. I am not entirely sure what the retirement age for High Court judges is, but a retirement age, be it 70 or 75, would seem to be one possible solution. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, declaring an interest, was against that. Other alternatives have been promoted in the past; for example, when your Lordships have sat here for 15 or 30 years, they should also be retired. I declare my interest in that that would affect me, so, quite naturally, I am thoroughly against the proposal. However, it is for this House to consider this matter very carefully. It is also for my noble friend on the Front Bench and the Leader of the Opposition to come before your Lordships and say what the main political parties in this country feel that they can do about the size of this Chamber. We know that there is going to be long-term reform, but we really ought to address the issue beforehand because it is important.
Lord Grenfell
When I declared an interest, it did not imply that it was in self-interest that I was making the argument that the House would be deprived of a lot of expertise; I was speaking of a lot of other people. It is worth recalling that, since the noble Viscount spoke of the Chinese People’s Republic, I do not know of any other upper Chamber where there happens to be such a limit. If one is going to go down a different route, perhaps the noble Viscount might consider it a good idea if we limited the number of new creations. That would be one way of getting the size of the House down.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, it is a foolish idea to set an arbitrary age limit. There are some people who are pretty brain-dead by about 40, and there are some people who are highly intelligent in their 90s—I think immediately of the late Lord Renton and Lord Bruce of Donington, who always gave grief to his Front Bench on EU matters, because he knew far more than anyone else about it. The list goes on and on. To deprive the country of the accumulated wisdom of people such as that would be about the most foolish thing that we could do. Let us find some other mechanism. As has quite rightly been said, we are ageing now. An age limit might fall foul of the Equality Act, because we have removed the retirement age elsewhere—we are forcing companies in the corporate world to keep people for as long as those people wish to stay there. Why on earth are we operating in the opposite way? If we are finding it difficult, we should not be doing special legislation for Parliament. Let us keep our wisdom.
Lord Howe of Aberavon
My Lords, I declare a special interest, at the age of 84, although a number of others no doubt share that antiquity with me. Those who have emphasised the importance of a sensible approach to this question pose their premise on their declared recognition of the wisdom of the House. If we are as wise as some colleagues have already said we are, we would surely be profoundly unwise to take a decision of this importance, which has been brought before us at a few hours’ notice. It certainly deserves more consideration than it is likely to get before the luncheon Adjournment. I oppose the proposition, not just out of self-interest but out of sheer sanity and respect for the reputation of this House.
Lord Cobbold
An alternative, my Lords, is to have a fixed period of service for all Members of the House. That would allow people to give of their great experience and later on to live longer lives.
Lord St John of Fawsley
My Lords, may I put this question to your Lordships? Who is the wisest person in this House? In my opinion, it is the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, who is 92.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, given that the rationale used by every speaker who wants to support the proposed new clause has been to do with the size of the House being too great and the need to reduce it, is it not a fact, and I ask the Minister to comment on this—
Lord Lea of Crondall
Okay, he cannot answer. I did not know that. The Minister has some responsibility for implementing the coalition agreement which has led to the dramatic escalation in the size of the House. By virtue of the ludicrous formula in that agreement, the House has to reflect the voting in the previous election. If we were to take the last election as an example, there would be 1,100 in this House if we did not get rid of anybody. The getting rid of somebody is not to do with age but with this ridiculous formula. In order to reduce the size of the House you may as well say, “Let us get rid of people by lot”, or, “Let us get rid of everyone whose surname begins with L, M, N, O or P”. There is as much sense in this proposal as that.
Lord Selsdon
My Lords, in reference to age, I was put on various committees at a very young age. I was told, “My dear chap, you are far too young for this but we want someone to be alive at the time when something happens”.
Desmond Morris, a friend I admired, wrote The Naked Ape and also wrote on longevity, which is related indirectly to dementia. As you get older, you forget where you have put your car keys or whether you have ordered two glasses of wine in the bar, but your long-term memory gets better and better. Part of his thought process was that what keeps people alive for a long age is using their brains and being active. This we have looked at in dealing with the older population. If there was an attempt to introduce an age of 75 it would mean many Peers leaving this House—I shall not give your Lordships today the scary number, from my figures, of how many would go but it is quite considerable—and we would probably be leading them to an earlier death than would otherwise be the case.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein
I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, said about age. He mentioned the Chinese. The Chinese believe very strongly that, as you get older, you get wiser. That may be the case with many people but, being well over the age limit, I am not sure that that is so in my case. We should consider this matter very carefully. Certainly an age limit of 75 is fairly absurd.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, at the age of 75, one would be too young even to be considered as a candidate member of the Chinese Politburo.
Lord Norton of Louth
My Lords, I sometimes make the point that teaching students makes me realise that I am not that young but being in the House of Lords makes me realise that I am not that old.
My noble friend Lord Astor made an appropriate point when he referred to the problem of the size of the House. However, he then went on to refer to Members who sit, as if the two things were the same. I would distinguish between the two. There is a problem with numbers, but I do not think we should focus on those who sit—that is, those who turn up and contribute to the work of the House. We are trying to deal with it at the other end rather than through those who make an active contribution.
I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, about leading figures in the House who have been over 75. One could add the names of Lord Wilberforce and Lord Simon of Glaisdale among those who have influenced the House in a number of the decisions that it has taken. Without them, the statute book would have been much the worse. Focusing on age is to come up with the wrong solution to what my noble friend has identified as a real problem.
Lord Trefgarne
My noble friend makes an important point about the problem of those who do not attend as well as about those who do. However, there is a problem in both areas. Very often your Lordships’ House is overfull and some of us have to sit below the Bar, and that is quite unusual in my experience. We need to find a way of reducing the size of your Lordships’ House. Whether an age limit is the right way forward is a matter for your Lordships to consider. That, of course, would apply equally to those who do attend and those who do not. There are other ways, too, of dealing with the numbers, as several noble Lords have suggested. For example, you could have a ballot as you do for hereditary Peers, but I guess that that is not now very popular.
However, there are ways of doing it. Something has to be done and it is a pity that the Bill of my noble friend Lord Steel did not begin to address the problem.
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, there has been reference today to the escalation of numbers in this House in the summer. I remind your Lordships that that took place at precisely the time we were asked to vote on the diminution of the House of Commons.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, I agree that we have to reduce the numbers in this House; I do not think putting an arbitrary retirement age on Peers is the right way to do it. Apart from all the arguments against it which we have just heard, which are quite valid, it would be too haphazard. We will need to be a little more precise in our aim when we come to reduce our numbers.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the debate has wandered a little from the amendment under consideration to the broader proposals the Government have produced. Let me remind the House that, as has already been stated, under the Government’s proposals Members of this House will serve for a term. That will resolve the question of an age limit.
Amendment 129 is grouped with Amendment 128 and, under these two amendments, there will be an upper age limit for the House of Lords but not an upper age limit for membership of the House of Commons. It is specifically allowed for in Amendment 129 that Members of this House, on retiring at the age of 75, will be free to stand for election to the House of Commons.
Lord Swinfen
My Lords, if we have an upper age limit for membership of this House we will be throwing away a terrific amount of experience and wisdom. The vast number of noble Lords who came in with the increase since the last election were appointed to this House by the leaders of the political parties in another place. It is not the fault of this House that its numbers have grown. I suggest that as, say, five Members of this House die and, therefore, no longer sit, they are replaced by only two or three new Members. We will need new Members to keep new and younger blood coming to the House, but in that way we could have a gradual reduction in numbers.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, again, I am grateful to all of your Lordships who have taken part in this debate. Let me start with my noble friend Lord Swinfen, who has just sat down; I hope that he will bring forward an amendment on his proposals.
I absolutely take the point about losing a lot of wisdom from people over 75. It was a concern of mine when we tabled this amendment but it was right to have had this important debate. My noble friend Lord Norton of Louth said, quite rightly, that we must differentiate between active and passive Peers. I would only say to him that he should have supported me when it came to the abolition of hereditaries in 1999 because all that Bill did, in fact, was to get rid of about 90 active hereditary Peers. The majority of the hereditary Peers who were excommunicated from this House were not active Members and although the House appeared large in number, if we ever got a vote of 300 in those days it was indeed a large vote, as the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, will remember. That argument should have applied to hereditary Peers but it was of course an inconvenient argument for the Government to accept. It will be a convenient argument for them to accept this time but it was inconvenient 12 years ago.
That brings me to the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, who said that I have an amendment to limit the House to 300 people, which indeed I have, and that we could not staff the existing committees. To follow up on what I have just been saying, pre-1999 we did not have the number of committees. It is only because we have grown like Topsy that we have increased the number of committees, and we will go on increasing them. There is no end to the demand that we must have a committee for this and a committee for that and, as the numbers increase—which they undoubtedly will until we get a proper reform of this House—we will keep on increasing the number of committees. I think that one should get to a number and then ask, “Right, what is the best way for those people to make themselves work in an efficient way?”, and if that means getting rid of some committees, so be it.
The debate we have had brings me to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made on, I think, 4 June —maybe he will correct me—when he wrote this, which your Lordships can find on the Guardian blog:
“The old guard are already lining up to defend the status quo”.
That is clear from the debate that we have had. There is always something wrong with the amendment that is put forward. There must be other amendments and a different way of doing things. The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, said that we must find another mechanism. I have put forward a mechanism and it has not received any great support but there is not another mechanism. We are therefore going to be faced with this continual problem of an increase in the size of the House, and of the active House.
I will, again, be referring in due course to some leaders that have been written in the papers recently about how this House works. I have increasingly come to the conclusion that in their writings my noble friends Lord Steel and Lord Tyler are both right, for what is this House designed to do? We have not discussed that. We are talking about reforming a system that is creaking at the seams without looking ahead to ask, “What should a second Chamber do?”. It would not be this House of Lords but having got what a second Chamber should be doing, you then work out how it is composed. I see my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth nodding. It is very unusual that we agree on reform of the House of Lords but this is one of those rare moments that one cherishes.
We are, again, putting the cart before the horse. Clearly, age is a non-runner. I accept that but it has been extremely worth while because at least my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and I have put forward a proposal to be discussed. I hope that other noble Lords will put forward different proposals, because there is no doubt that something needs to be done.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My point is that the all-party committee of the House under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, has already come to a firm conclusion and published a report. By the clauses that we have just passed, we are saying to the Government, “Take this report up. Get on with it and let’s reduce the numbers”. That is the right way to do it.
The Earl of Caithness
I absolutely take my noble friend's point. As I said to him earlier, that is not going to work because the only way you are going to get retirement from this House is to have a financial inducement, and I do not think that that will ever be acceptable, particularly in the present financial circumstances. For a House comprising Peers who are not paid but merely receive expenses, to be paid to leave is not acceptable. It was not acceptable for the hereditary Peers and it is not acceptable for the life Peers.
Lord Grenfell
I have to challenge the noble Earl’s assertion that the number of committees is driven by the size of the House. This is not the case. I have some experience of this. The number of committees is driven by the fact that legislation is becoming increasingly complex, particularly the scrutiny of European legislation, and, unfortunately, by the quality of the form in which legislation comes from the other place often being very poor. Your Lordships have a duty to scrutinise properly. It is not quite right to say that we create committees to make jobs for the boys and girls. We do it because there is a genuine need for better scrutiny.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I certainly bow to the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, who has much greater experience of this than I have. There is no doubt that, as a result of the reforms in another place, there is less scrutiny there than there used to be and we have to do more. However, there are other committees that have grown since I was first here. It is a bit of both. The noble Lord is absolutely right that the complexity of legislation, particularly European legislation as it has come in, has needed committees. However, my figure of 300 is merely taken from the Government’s proposals. We will come back to that but we must get on.
Lord Northbrook
May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel, a question? As far as I am aware, only two Members have taken advantage of the proposal of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. Initially it does not seem to have been that effective.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I can answer that. In fact, what has been done internally in the House is not at all what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, recommended. He recommended a statutory provision and a payment. The answer to the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, is that the Hunt committee said that this should be done without adding to the budget of the House of Lords, so that it would save public expenditure. The committee argued it very carefully. What has been implemented in the mean time is simply voluntary resignation, of which only two Members have taken advantage. The recommendation of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has not been implemented and it ought to be implemented, or at least considered now in some depth.
The Earl of Caithness
I agree with that but I just do not think that it will work. I cannot see a rush of Peers to take it up, so I am trying to get beyond that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Earl of Caithness
“Right of retired Members to vote and stand for election to the House of Commons
A person who ceases to be a member of the House of Lords under section (Retirement age) shall not be disqualified from—
(a) voting at elections to the House of Commons, or(b) being, or being elected as, a Member of that House.”
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, this is a very simple amendment, which I hope my noble friend will be able to accept. It says:
“A person who ceases to be a member of the House of Lords under section (Retirement age) shall not be disqualified from … voting at elections to the House of Commons, or … being, or being elected as, a Member of that House”.
I beg to move.
Lord Norton of Louth
My Lords, I do not understand the amendment. It appears to be consequential on Amendment 128, which has just been withdrawn.
The Earl of Caithness
No, my Lords, it is not consequential on Amendment 128. I did not accept the groupings. I did not group Amendment 129 with Amendment 128 and I did not speak to it earlier. So I am moving it now and I am perfectly entitled to do so.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)
My Lords, in one briefing the two amendments are grouped together and in another they are separate. Is it your Lordships’ pleasure that the amendment be agreed to?
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market
The amendment says “under section” but there is no section. Therefore, it falls if Amendment 128 is not agreed to.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I apologise. I am absolutely certain that my noble friend Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market is right. This shows the slight confusion that we are in as a result of the earlier Motion. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, at this stage it may be helpful to mention that we are running out of groupings on the list that we have. Therefore, there is a new list in the Printed Paper Office, which takes us from Amendment 130 to the end and starts again at Amendment 1. That new document is available for Members.
Viscount Astor
My noble friend kindly gave me a copy of the groupings list. I should point out that my two Amendments 68 and 75 are not on the groupings list.
Lord Lea of Crondall
Would it not be for the convenience of the House if the staff distributed the new list, instead of us all marching out to get hold of it?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, anything for the convenience of the House but I have never before seen papers distributed. It occurred to me, frankly. Clearly, that can be done. As to the missing amendments, I will make my inquiries.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I do not have a copy of the revised groupings list. I am taking my amendments individually and not grouping them, but it shows how very tricky these proceedings have become. This is a very bad precedent for discussing a Private Member’s Bill regardless of what Bill we are discussing.
The Earl of Caithness
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we now come to Part 4 of the Bill, which is headed:
“Conviction of serious criminal offence”.
I have stated before that I do not like this clause and I do not like it for two reasons. One argument advanced in favour of the clause is that the provision is the same as that which applies in another place. However, I do not think that we should necessarily follow the provisions of another place. We are a different House and we are composed differently. It is right that we should make different rules, if necessary.
I have previously mentioned my second reason for disliking the clause. When a person has served a sentence they should no longer be penalised for having committed the offence in question. When I was Minister for Prisons the principle was clear. The courts meted out sentences but, when they had been served, that was the end of it. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is not in his place but I hope that there are some lawyers present who will support my remarks. Therefore, in principle I have serious concerns about Part 4. I completely understand what my noble friend is trying to do but I consider that the provision goes against the principles of British justice.
The term “more than one year” in the Bill is too short a timescale and would catch too many trivial offences. Therefore, my Amendment 130 suggests a timescale of five years rather than one year. There is a certain benefit to be had from permitting Peers who have been convicted and sentenced to prison to come back to the House after they have served their sentence. Lord Kagan used to sit on the Labour Benches, having spent a little time at Her Majesty’s Pleasure. He came back and gave useful insights into that experience which assisted our consideration of criminal justice Bills. My amendment seeks to improve the Bill and explore the justification of my noble friend Lord Steel for the one-year period. I beg to move.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My answer to my noble friend Lord Caithness is very simple: I do not think that there is any magic in the one-year period. I am simply bringing this House into line with the other House. It has long been the practice in the elected House that anyone sentenced to a year’s imprisonment is automatically expelled. It seems to me that that should apply across Parliament as a whole. That is the only rationale for the measure. My noble friend has tabled two later starred amendments. I am minded to consider these very carefully because I think that he has a point there which we could carry forward to Report stage, if we get to it. However, we should resist Amendments 130 and 131 as they would make the provisions for this House different from those of the other place, and I do not see any case for that.
Viscount Astor
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, has mentioned my amendment, which is not grouped with this one. However, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if I speak to it at the same time. I think that three noble Lords who attend this House have served time during Her Majesty’s pleasure and that two are either in prison or have been there recently. There are a few over the years who perhaps should have been there. There are quite a few I would have liked to have sent there but could not find a decent enough reason. Be that as it may, the point of my amendment is to make the situation rather similar to what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, says applies to the House of Commons. I absolutely agree that if you are in prison you should not attend your Lordships' House. If you are in prison I do not see how you can attend your Lordships' House unless there is some day-release policy of which I am not aware.
Viscount Astor
You could be tagged, as my noble friend said. I understood that one of the important principles of the Liberal Democrats was rehabilitation—bringing people back into society after they have served their sentence, paid their price and done their time. Those of your Lordships who have suffered the indignity of prison will come out and find it quite difficult to get regular employment. After all, who is a more difficult person to employ than someone who has been in prison? It would be difficult to employ a Peer who had been in prison. I should have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who is a humane person, would want such people to come back and contribute to society. The difference for the House of Commons is that you have to be re-elected, but if you go to prison you do not lose your title—you are stuck with it, I am afraid. Such noble Lords should be given a chance.
My noble friend Lord Caithness referred to Lord Kagan. I try to avoid the trap of politicians falling into the pointless anecdote, but perhaps I will mention one concerning Lord Kagan. When he reappeared in your Lordships' House, he came to the tea room and sat down. We all looked slightly embarrassed and wondered what to say. The late Lord Marsh turned to him and said, “I hope that your time in prison was not too bad”, to which Lord Kagan said, “I’ve only been in prison twice. The first was a concentration camp during the war and the second was here. I have to tell you that British prisons are much nicer places”. After that, we were all silent for quite a long time.
The purpose of my probing amendment is to ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel, whether noble Lords who serve in this House, but due to some unfortunate circumstances have been a guest of Her Majesty, can contribute. Will the noble Lord consider that such noble Lords might, in some circumstances, be able to come back and rehabilitate themselves into what must be a welcoming place to come back to?
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, these are interesting amendments. Although I realise that this is a Private Member’s Bill, I know that the government Benches believe in giving people a second change. That is commendable in many ways and I certainly believe in the rehabilitation of offenders. I also recognise that although we are one Parliament we are two Houses, each of which has rules and regulations. However, in this instance, it is absolutely right that we bring our own procedures into line with the House of Commons. While I believe in the rehabilitation of offenders, we must bear in mind that we are legislators and make laws. When one has broken a law to such an extent that one receives a prison sentence, it is right and proper that for a period of five years one should no longer have the privilege of making laws.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, perhaps I may help us to make progress by simply adding that I very much agree with the noble Baroness who has just spoken. The Government’s draft House of Lords Bill contains a very similar provision to the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, because it mirrors the provisions for MPs, which are set out in Section 1 of the Representation of the People Act 1981. It is appropriate that the terms and conditions for both Houses should be the same.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, my comments apply to all the amendments to this clause and I will not make them again—although the amendments are not grouped. I entirely agree with all the comments about rehabilitation. That is the whole point. What if someone does something very silly when they are young—they get into a big fight and are locked up—but in their 20s they become very sensible people and pillars of the community? Why are we disbarring them for the rest of their lives? There is no rehabilitation provision in this clause, and that is obnoxious in a civilised and democratic society.
We could also easily fall foul of the EU and the Human Rights Act. There is a big argument at the moment about whether prisoners should be able to vote. Equally, I do not see why ex-prisoners who are rehabilitated should not contribute to the legislative process. They would probably give us insights that we would not otherwise have. Things can go on in certain institutions that we would not otherwise know about. That could be useful experience. I cannot see any reason for being so punitive as to have a lifetime ban. If we do not have an element of rehabilitation, the entire provision should be struck out.
Incidentally, if someone serves a long enough sentence, the term that they serve means that they are resident in the jail, so they will be given permanent leave of absence by reason of failure to attend the House under Clause 12(1). In the light of what we may decide about rehabilitation, that may need to be rewritten for someone who is here already.
Lord Trefgarne
I do not disagree in principle that in certain circumstances noble Lords convicted of an offence should be excluded from your Lordships' House—in serious cases, perhaps even permanently. However, there was a case quite recently when a noble Lord was convicted and sentenced to a rather long sentence which was rapidly reduced on appeal to a much shorter sentence. That noble Lord quickly returned to your Lordships' House. Where sentences change rapidly on appeal, that should act in the favour of the noble Lord concerned. What does my noble friend think about that?
Lord Northbrook
I have two problems with the clause. First, the definition of a serious criminal offence could cause a lot of problems. Secondly, if a noble Lord was locked up in Zimbabwe for a trumped up offence, it seems unsatisfactory that he would be excluded from the House for that reason.
Lord Swinfen
My noble friend has just brought up the point I was going to raise. Unfortunately, one or two regimes in the world unjustly lock up their people and, occasionally, visitors, after they have gone through a sham of a trial. That would be covered under the clause. How would my noble friend deal with that? Some very worthy Members of this House may be on business abroad who happen to have said things in this House that their hosts do not like and who take the opportunity to incarcerate them as a result.
The Earl of Caithness
Can my noble friend on the Front Bench give some examples of offences for which you would be penalised for more than a year? I am trying to get at what level of offence would be covered by the one-year cut off. What sort of things get you penalised for more than one year? Secondly, I pick up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. She said that noble Lords would be excluded for five years. That is not how I read the Bill. I would like my noble friend Lord Steel to clarify that. I thought that the noble Baroness said that if you have gone to prison, you cannot come back here for five years.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
If I said that, I was completely wrong. I did not mean to say that. If I said it, I certainly withdraw it.
The Earl of Caithness
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. Either I misheard or there was a lack of communication. I know that my noble friend Lord Steel has a number of questions to answer.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
The principle behind Part 4 is simply that lawbreakers should not be lawmakers. That is the principle at the other end of the building, and it is one that I think we should sustain. I hope that I can persuade my noble friend not to press Amendment 130, because it would make this House different from the other one. My noble friend Lord Astor makes a strong liberal appeal for rehabilitation. If noble Lords would be kind enough not to move Amendments 131 to 133, I will certainly talk to both the Ministry of Justice and the authorities in the other place about those matters. I take the point just made by the noble Lord about sentences in other countries. We must take that into account. If we need to amend the Bill further at Report, I will be very willing to do so.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I delayed rising in the hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench had some answers. I do not know whether the fifth cavalry has moved speedily enough but in the hope that they are scribbling frantically behind me—
Lord Shutt of Greetland
There may or may not be words of wisdom arriving. I remind the noble Earl that this is a Private Member’s Bill. The Government are here to be helpful from time to time but we do not have the answers as it is not our Bill.
While I am on my feet, I have further news. The Government Whips’ Office produced this splendid document showing that there are continued grouping of amendments, going up to Amendment 20 on the second page. It is an ambitious document, with 31 groupings yet to come. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, was concerned about his Amendment 68. That one comes after another 31 amendments, after the 31 groups on the sheet. He is also concerned about Amendment 75, which is five amendments after that—in other words, 67 amendments on. Ambition is splendid and it may be that moving with great speed another list has to be issued. We shall see.
Viscount Astor
My Lords, before my noble friend Lord Caithness withdraws his amendment it might be for the convenience of the House if I respond to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to save me moving my Amendment 131 and thank him for his humane response to my suggestion, for which I am grateful.
Lord Norton of Louth
Before the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, responds, nobody has really picked up the point about rehabilitation. The clause does not prevent rehabilitation because it would be open for somebody who had been expelled from the House to be considered for a life peerage in the event of them doing good work and rehabilitating themselves. What the clause rules out is those who do not engage in rehabilitation.
Lord Lyell
I hesitate to intervene because my noble friend on the Front Bench is about to move on. He is trying to draw a distinction between a Private Member’s Bill and other legislation that passes through your Lordships’ House. Will he confirm with the authorities of the House what is different with the groupings and other procedures for a Private Member’s Bill as opposed to any other business in your Lordships’ House? I understand that the groupings are carried out with the agreement usually of both sets of authorities of the House but that it is open to each mover of each amendment not necessarily to agree and to insist on moving an amendment even though it may not be in accordance with the wishes of the Front Bench. Will my noble friend please explain why the usual arrangements might be different today because we are debating a Private Member’s Bill rather than any other procedures in your Lordships’ House?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, nothing is different apart from not having a Government and an Opposition endeavouring to agree groupings. We are dealing with people who are promoting a Private Member’s Bill and others—we do not know who they are—who take a different view. We do not know who they are in composite; we know them as individuals. Therefore, the Government Whips’ Office is trying to be helpful in doing these groupings. The noble Lord is correct that amendments can be degrouped, as we have seen today. This document is simply an attempt to help all noble Lords with the business before us.
Now I am on my feet I will say that I have been given a piece of paper which suggests that under existing sentencing powers, magistrates' courts can, for a single offence, imprison for a maximum of six months. A wide variety of offences can be punished by more than 12 months’ imprisonment. That is my information and I hope that it might help the noble Lord.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend on the Front Bench; that is certainly helpful to me. I say to my noble friend Lord Steel that I do not see why we have to be the same as another place if we are playing a slightly different role. I certainly agree that we are legislators. However, given our present make-up of being appointed, which I fear is likely to continue for some time, I do not see why we have to be identical on this.
I take the point—which I meant to make when I moved the amendment—that the clause could affect people's human rights. It was made by the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and by my noble friend Lord Swinfen, and we should discuss it. In order to be helpful to my noble friend Lord Steel, and given what he said, I shall not move Amendments 132 and 133. This should speed up the process. However, I point out that Amendment 133 is a pre-sequential amendment that refers to the Appointments Commission that he wants to get rid of—so we will have fun on that when we come to it. He offered me a lovely olive branch by saying, “Yes, I rather like your amendment, we can discuss it”. However, he will take away the whole point of the amendment later in the proceedings. If he will discuss with me whether it should be one year or more —perhaps two, three, four or five—and we can talk about the clause, I will not move my Amendments 132 and 133. I see him nod and I will take that as a yes. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Trefgarne
“( ) Nothing in this Part shall apply to a Member who has been convicted of offences under the Road Traffic Acts.”
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, this is a serious amendment of a probing nature. My recollection is that some past legislation excluded convictions under the Road Traffic Acts from the penalties that would otherwise apply. Perhaps that would be appropriate in the case of this legislation. I would need guidance on whether it is possible to sentence people under the Road Traffic Acts for the longer sentences that we are anticipating—longer than those that normally apply in magistrates’ courts. Perhaps my noble friend on the Front Bench—or even my noble friend Lord Steel—can offer me some guidance on that. Occasionally, people commit serious as opposed to minor offences under the Road Traffic Acts. I would be interested to know whether that situation would apply to this legislation.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, my noble friend behind me asked me earlier why there was a reference to a conviction for a serious criminal offence, and how that was defined. It is defined by the courts, not by Parliament. As I understand it, the current position in the Commons is that any offence for which a year's sentence is given must by definition be serious. I am not familiar with the details of the Road Traffic Acts, but my guess is that if somebody were not convicted in a magistrate’s court, because, as we have just heard from the Front Bench, sentences there are limited to six months, then it must be a very serious offence. It might be dangerous or reckless driving. I do not know. I am not an expert on that. I do not see why we should exempt one particular kind of serious offence just because we are rather partial to the Road Traffic Acts.
Lord Trefgarne
I am not trying to establish a precedent in this matter. My recollection is that the Road Traffic Acts are excluded from the provisions of some other legislation and, of course, it is open to somebody charged under a Road Traffic Act to elect to be tried before the county court rather than the magistrate’s court, so there is rather more to this than may immediately appear. It needs further investigation, and I hope my noble friend will allow me to do that.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
Since I have already undertaken to discuss the other matters with the Ministry of Justice, I am certainly willing to take this one on board as well if my noble friend would be kind enough to withdraw the amendment. If we need to come back to it on Report, we could.
Lord Swinfen
My Lords, I am not an expert on the Road Traffic Acts, but surely someone who drives unlicensed, uninsured or under the influence of drink or drugs or who does a very serious amount of damage to other people’s property, possibly killing or maiming them at the same time, would get a very severe sentence and is not the sort of person whom one would want as a Member of this House in any case. I think the noble Lord needs to think on that side of it before pressing his amendment.
Lord Trefgarne
With the undertaking from my noble friend, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Part 4AVoting at electionsVoting at elections to the House of Commons
(1) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a Member of the Legislature shall not be disqualified by virtue of that post for voting at elections to the House of Commons.
(2) A Member of the Legislature shall be disqualified by virtue of that post for being, or being elected as, a Member of the House of Commons.
(3) For the avoidance of doubt, a Member of the House of Lords who ceased to be entitled to sit and vote in the House of Lords under section (Right to sit and vote in the House of Lords), shall not be disqualified for voting at elections to the House of Commons.”
Lord Dubs
This amendment contains a very simple proposition. I think we are the only Members of a second Chamber in any democratic country in the world who do not have the right to vote in general elections. It seems to me that there is a point of principle here. Many of us campaign in elections. I have window bills up in my house, and yet I am not allowed to vote for reasons that have disappeared in the mists of history and which make no logical sense today. It would not be compulsory. Those Members of this House who feel that they should not vote would have the right not to go to the polling station, but people in history have died for the right to vote. It has been a fundamental principle in many countries in the world. I feel very deeply when I am not allowed to vote on election day, even though I take an active part in campaigning for the candidate or candidates of my choice. The proposition is very simple. It will not change anything fundamental but will give us the right on polling day to exercise a democratic right. For those people who say that we are in the legislature and therefore we have other chances, the point of voting is to choose or influence the Government of this country. That is the right that we do not have as Members of this legislature, unless we are given the right to vote. I beg to move.
Viscount Astor
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for one very simple reason: while canvassing at the previous election, I knocked at a door and said, “I very much hope that you’ll vote Conservative at the forthcoming election”. The answer was, “I might. Did you at the last election?”. I was forced to say no, so the lady said, “Well, neither shall I”.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, I have often thought about this. It is an anomaly that dates back to when the Lords had the same sort of power as the other place. We can no longer vote on money Bills. This is my point. I seem to remember that they had a tea party in Boston on this very issue, which is that there should be no taxation without representation, or at least the right to vote. We are the only ones excluded, apart from various others. We are not allowed to vote on money Bills here, and nor are we allowed to vote for the very people who are putting them through and deciding upon them in another place. Logically, I think we should. We should either be given some powers over money Bills, which would be one answer or, alternatively, we should be given the right to vote.
Lord Northbrook
I support the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, on this point. First, we should have more powers on money Bills and, secondly, it seems quite ridiculous while we can vote in local elections and European elections. Why on earth should that right not be extended to voting in general elections?
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I add my voice to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. I have found it similarly difficult to answer the question when canvassing, as the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, has. We have now reached the position where, as our democracy moves on and we encourage others around the world, which I spent a lot of time doing, to vote and to participate, it really is quite stupid that we do not have the opportunity to express our views about which Government we want.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, just for the record, Members of your Lordships' House are allowed to vote in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly elections, so not being allowed to vote in the parliamentary elections is a stupid anomaly.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, perhaps someone could enlighten me on the origin of all this. I assume that commoners vote for the Commons and that Lords are a totally different kettle of fish. Is that correct? Can anyone say what the principle is supposed to be? Otherwise, it looks ridiculous.
Lord Swinfen
My Lords, I believe it is because we have a voice and a vote in Parliament.
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, I think it is also the fact that Members of the House of Commons are no longer Members of the House of Commons when the election takes place.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I fully support my noble friend in his amendment, which is excellent. However, I look forward to hearing the response from the noble Lord, Lord Steel, because, while this is of the utmost importance, I would not wish it to impede the passage of the Bill in any way. As I said, however, I am fully behind my noble friend’s amendment.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, to be honest, I was completely agnostic about this amendment. My initial reaction was that it was another matter outside the scope and intent of my Bill. However, no one has spoken against it, and I think the noble Lord, Lord Lea, is correct that the origin of this practice was that Members of the House of Commons could vote in their Chamber and that we had a voice and a position here. The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, is right that the powers of this House have been diminished over the years, which no longer stands up to scrutiny.
Lord Cormack
This is a very important matter that has far-reaching consequences and implications, so could we not return to this matter on Report or at Third Reading? I am not saying that I am against it at all, but I do think that we need to reflect, particularly in the light of what the noble Lord, Lord Wright, said a moment or two ago, on the implications and on the differences between being a permanent Member of this House and not being a Member at all of the other place during the election campaign.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I think my noble friend is correct. I said that I was agnostic about the amendment, but I am actually quite sympathetic to it. I just wonder whether it is right to make such a fundamental change in just a few minutes’ debate. I will take it seriously, and if the noble Lord will be kind enough to withdraw his amendment, I will certainly discuss it, again with the other House authorities and with the Ministry of Justice, with the other things that I am discussing. If there is no objection, I will be happy to bring back the amendment in my own name on Report.
The Earl of Erroll
The noble Lord says that he will go off and discuss it, but it has suddenly occurred to me that there is another solution. As we cannot vote on taxation issues, we should not pay taxes.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, given the widespread support throughout the House, I do not honestly see that there is any significant problem about this. We would simply be on the voting list and could vote as we can in European elections, in Scottish elections if we live there, or in Welsh or in Northern Irish elections. We would just have the right to vote. It would make no difference at all in practice. The local authorities would simply have an easier task when compiling the voting list.
On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wright, Members of Parliament might not technically be Members of the Commons when an election is called, but they can vote in a by-election. I very much hope that we can proceed to a decision. Everyone whose opinion I test in the country thinks that this is an anomaly and absurd. The world will not come to an end, but democracy will be enhanced.
Lord Higgins
On the suggestion that the amendment is withdrawn, my noble friend Lord Steel has made a very clear offer. The amendment does require further consideration, not least because Members who are not present today may well have a view. We can certainly come back to this on Report or at Third Reading.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, this amendment has been on the Order Paper for some considerable time. As regards the argument that some people not here might have a view, I would say “tough”. Let us make a decision now.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
Perhaps we could reach a compromise the other way around. I am quite happy to accept the amendment on the understanding that we will have further discussions. If it is found to be objectionable, for some reason which we do not understand now, we could come back to it on Report and take it out again. At the moment, let us keep it in. On that basis, I am happy to accept the amendment.
The Earl of Caithness
“Referendum
(1) Her Majesty must by Order in Council, on the advice of the Prime Minister, cause a referendum to be held throughout the United Kingdom about whether the House of Lords should be reformed in accordance with the provisions of this Bill before any part or whole of the Bill comes into effect.
(2) For further provision about a referendum held by virtue of subsection (1), Schedule (Referendums under this Act) applies.
(3) An Order in Council under this section may not be made unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing the Order has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I apologise in advance as I may be a little longer on this amendment than I have been on others. That is because the amendment refers to referendums. I believe that a change in the constitution, such as this Bill proposes, should be the subject of a referendum. We are getting more and more used to referendums as part of our political landscape. The Local Government Act 2000 provided for the holding of referendums to enable electors of individual local authorities to express their preferences for the type of executive arrangements within their council. The 2001 Regional Assemblies (Preparation) Bill also allowed for the holding of referendums.
The House is currently considering the Localism Bill, which has a huge number of Liberal Democrat amendments—I can see my noble friend Lord Steel nodding, whether in sadness or pleasure I am not certain. Under Schedule 6 to the two tomes of that Bill one sees a huge amount about “Council tax referendums: further amendments”. A referendum was also agreed in Section 6—headed, “Decisions requiring approval by Act and by referendum”—of the European Union Act 2011, which my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford took through. Earlier this year there was also, of course, the referendum on the alternative vote system, with the quite remarkable and wonderful result that it was not agreed. We are getting increasingly used to referendums.
This is a constitutional Bill of some importance. The most important bit is the one we have agreed which will break the 1999 agreement on the succession of hereditary Peers until a further reform of the House of Lords takes place. If this Bill is important enough to break that agreement then it is important enough to prompt a referendum.
Amendment 138 states:
“Her Majesty must by Order in Council, on the advice of the Prime Minister, cause a referendum to be held”.
We then move on to the schedule and the consequential amendments. The schedule comes after Clause 19 and sets out the details of the referendum. I have to admit that I have copied this from the referendum amendment put forward for the Scotland Bill, which is also before your Lordships’ House. But I have proposed amendments to my amendment to take into account the fact that we would have a Joint Committee. We have not yet discussed the Joint Committee. The purpose of bringing it in—which I had hoped we would discuss earlier today—is that the Government proposing doing so in their draft reform Bill, which is in front of the Joint Committee of both Houses. We are caught up in a mess as a result of the rearrangement this morning because the amendments to my amendment concern something that we have not yet discussed. In view of what my noble friend Lord Shutt said, perhaps it would be wise for me not to move the amendments to my amendment until we have discussed the Joint Committee. However, I think that this is a cack-handed way of trying to discuss legislation. It is impossible to do it rationally.
I shall take noble Lords quickly through the schedule. There is, of course, the “Entitlement to vote”, which I hope does not cause any problems. We then deal with the conduct of the referendum and the “Referendum question and statement”. That is an important part of the schedule because the Order in Council,
“must specify the question to be included”.
We then come to the date of the referendum, and following that the “Referendum period”, which must be determined by the Order in Council. We then have “Combination of polls”, the encouragement of voting and the “Provision of information to voters”. It is important that one provides the correct information. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Steel probably knows more about referendums than I do, but my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth is probably the man to check that I have all of this right and to his satisfaction. The schedule goes on to deal with “Referendum material” and “Funding and accounts”. It deals with legal challenges to the referendum because they could well take place, followed by the “Supplementary” and “Interpretation” provisions. That in brief is the schedule before us. The principle of this is that there should be a referendum when it comes to constitutional reform. I beg to move.
Viscount Astor
My Lords, while I sympathise with my noble friend, I have to say that if I thought that the Bill brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, was as groundbreaking as my noble friend Lord Caithness points out, perhaps we could consider a referendum. But I have to say to my noble friend that I do not think that that is the case, and I really do not think that it justifies a referendum.
The more interesting issue here is that we do not know whether the committee looking into reform of the House of Lords is going to be able to keep to its timetable, or indeed whether the Government will produce a Bill for the reform of the House of Lords in this Parliament. It may be that they will wait until the next Parliament under whatever Government they are—I assume it will be a Conservative Government—and it is quite likely, if that is the case, that both major parties and indeed the Lib Dems will set out in their manifestos that they favour a wholly or largely elected second Chamber. If all three parties have that in their manifestos, there really is no chance for the country to have a view on it, because there will be no basis on which to have an alternative view on whether this House should be elected or appointed. It is not as if one can choose to say of one party, “I’ll vote for that because they put it forward”. In that case a referendum might be very worthwhile in deciding whether this nation really wants an elected second Chamber, with all the effect that that will have on another place and the way we manage the constitution of this country.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, I do not want to truncate the debate, but I want to reply to the mover of the amendment. I am wholly opposed to Amendments 138 and 141 for the simple reason that the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, has enumerated. Earlier someone said that this Bill should not be called the House of Lords Reform Bill, but the “House of Lords Improvement Bill”. I could even rename it the “House of Lords Housekeeping Bill”. What we are dealing with are three housekeeping matters internal to the House: the question of the election of hereditary Peers, the question of retirement and the question of removing those who commit serious offences. These are matters within the operation of the House and are not at all suitable for a referendum. So I am totally opposed to these provisions.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, that this is not a ground-breaking constitutional Bill. It is, indeed, a housekeeping Bill. But I am delighted that the noble Viscount agrees with the policy of my party, which is that there should be a referendum on any Bill that comes out of the Joint Committee, which will certainly be a profound constitutional change. In that case, I am certainly in favour of a referendum; in relation to the current Bill, I am opposed.
Lord Selsdon
I am not in favour of this at all, due to certain bad experiences in my life. The noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, will recall that we were both joint treasurers of the Conservative Group for Europe when the European referendum took place. I ended up having to raise very substantial amounts of money because, although the referendum went through, it was very difficult to explain to people what this European lark was all about. In general, people were slightly anti-European. The Labour Party was totally anti-European; when the referendum said that we should go into the EU, it refused to send a delegation to the European Parliament.
My concern about these matters is that it is very difficult to explain things. I speak in my capacity as a member of the Information Committee. We have a major problem, even though we have the outreach programme, in explaining to the outside world what we actually do. It is easier to explain it to young children than it is to those of teenage or later years. I shall use my grandson as an example. He sums it up very brilliantly, by saying that we work at Big Ben and we make rules. That is easier for people to understand—but what does the House of Lords do? In the outreach programme, when you talk to different people, it is very difficult because they all think that we are a bunch of old fogies who do nothing but sit on our backsides and drink tea. This explanation of what we do is very important if a referendum comes up. At the moment, if you were to have another referendum on the EU, you might have some very interesting results. So I am totally opposed to introducing to this Bill the referendum concept at this stage.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I am certainly very much opposed to having a referendum on this Bill. This is a series of modest proposals, which is—as my noble friend Lord Steel said, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, accepted—a housekeeping Bill. It is a modest Bill, which would certainly perplex any electorate if put to it for a referendum.
The point made by the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, is entirely different. I have never been a fan of the referendum; indeed, I did not want a referendum in 1975, and made that view quite plain in another place at the time. But we had it, and you cannot uninvent things. We have reached the situation in this country where we have had referenda on a number of major constitutional issues. We had them over devolution; we had one, which I thought was wholly unnecessary, earlier this year about alternative voting. But if you argue that alternative voting is of sufficient importance constitutionally to merit a referendum, you cannot argue that the abolition of a House of Parliament and its replacement by something totally different—because that is what it would be about—is not a fit subject for a referendum. So if by chance there is a proposal that we should have this House replaced by an elected one, there is an unanswerable case for a referendum, particularly if, as my noble friend indicated, the three major parties subscribe to that general ideal in their manifestos. We know that, whatever was said in the manifestos last time, there are a significant number of Liberal Democrats who are unhappy about the concept of an elected House. There is a very much larger number of Labour voters and Members who are unhappy about an elected House, and there is an overwhelming number of Conservative Peers and a very large number—we do not know how many—of Conservative Members of Parliament who are against it. If the hierarchies and leaders of the three parties put this forward in manifestos, that would be all the more reason for a referendum. That would be on the significant and central issue of whether this House was to be replaced by something different.
Here, I slightly disagree with my noble friend Lord Selsdon. I believe that the people of this country are sufficiently mature and adult to understand whether they are being asked to have an assembly of 300 paid, elected party politicians to replace what they have in this House at the moment. If they decide to go down that route, having had the issues thoroughly debated and explained, I would be very sad but so be it. That would certainly be the right subject for a referendum. The noble Baroness’s party is right to have that at the heart of its manifesto commitments on this particular issue. I urge my noble friend Lord Selsdon not to press his amendment as far as the Bill is concerned.
Lord Selsdon
My Lords, my noble friend talked as though we were going to be paid in future. This is quite sensitive. If that was put to the electorate, they would certainly not approve.
Lord Cormack
I entirely agree with my noble friend’s reaction to that proposition but that is what is in the White Paper—the draft Bill. Something very different may come out of the Joint Committee—we know not —but that is what is before us. Incidentally, I am sorry that I said “Lord Selsdon” when I should have said “Lord Caithness”. It is his amendment.
Lord Northbrook
My Lords, I supported my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway’s referendum amendment to the House of Lords Bill in 1999. I thought that that was a major constitutional change and deserved to be put to the House. Sadly, that was not carried. I agree with my noble friend Lord Astor that this is not an appropriate measure for this particular Bill. I am glad to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that her party plans to have a referendum on this, which I would support.
Lord Norton of Louth
My Lords, I merely note in respect of manifestos at the last election that the three main party manifestos said different things about the House of Lords. They were not all in agreement. My main point is in response to my noble friend Lord Caithness’s argument that this is a major constitutional change so should be subject to a referendum. If the Bill constitutes major constitutional change which should be subject to a referendum then we are perfectly entitled to regard it as stage 2 of Lords reform and his objection to getting rid of the by-election option completely falls.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the point I made was that it was because of getting rid of that. If the noble Lord takes out the removal of the hereditary Peers, then it is not stage 2 of Lords reform. The removal of the hereditary Peers, which breaks a crucial agreement, means that it becomes a major reform. It would be implementing the terms of the 1999 agreement. I have absolutely no doubt that we will talk about this a lot more in the future.
My noble friend Lord Cormack was absolutely right to say that many of your Lordships are concerned by the idea of an elected House, and not least the noble Lord, Lord Steel. He has expressed some serious concerns about having an elected House. I do not fear that. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. It is interesting that once again the hereditary Peers are more reforming than most other noble Lords. That takes me back to the days of my noble friend Lord Carrington, who in 1968 got the agreement of the basically hereditary House to change the way that we operated. That was turned round in the House of Commons. Had that proposal been agreed, I would not have been here for 40 years, nor would my noble friends Lord Selsdon and Lord Trefgarne. I would have missed it by one year and I am the third longest-serving Member of the House speaking today.
Clearly, this amendment does not receive any support at all. That surprises me. If we are allowed a referendum on a decision under the provisions of Article 31(3) of the Treaty on European Union, which permits the adoption of qualified majority, we ought to have a referendum on constitutional change. However, I agree with all those who have said that there must be a referendum on the Government’s Bill. I think I said that when we discussed it in your Lordships’ House. I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Trefgarne
“This Act shall not come into force until after the first General Election held following the passing of this Act.”
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the amendment is of course adopting the arguments that have been deployed quite effectively in the previous amendment but is, I suggest, the more modest proposal, which your Lordships might find more attractive.
It would appear that a referendum has not found favour with your Lordships, in respect of this Bill at least, although I agree with my noble friend Lord Caithness that it might well be a good thing to include it in the House of Lords reform Bill being considered by the joint Select Committee. That is for the committee to decide and recommend, and for the future, not for the present.
Simply delaying the introduction of the Bill until after a general election has a similar but rather less profound effect on public consideration of the merits of the proposal, as my noble friend Lord Caithness has said. Following the earlier discussion, the Bill will see the beginning of the end for the hereditary Peers. That may not find favour with the Opposition—I cannot say that for sure—but let us give them the opportunity to say. Accordingly, I propose that the Bill should not come into force until after the first general election following its passage. I beg to move.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, I am afraid that I must disagree with my noble friend Lord Trefgarne on this. The most important part of the Bill that we have been discussing all day, as far as this House is concerned, is getting the numbers down. If we postpone this until after the election, we will sit here with this overcrowded House until after 2015. That is not the will of the House, and I therefore reject the amendment.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I cannot be persuaded by that at all. I agree with my noble friend that the size of the House and the need to reduce the numbers are important matters. However, the view that we came to in earlier discussions was that what is proposed in the Bill goes a very short way in that direction. We need much more significant proposals for reducing the numbers if that is what we wish to do. My noble friend rejected the idea of an age limit; that did not find favour with him or many others of your Lordships. I suggest that the numbers can be dealt with through something other than the provisions of the Bill, which are not particularly effective in that regard. It is not therefore right to say that we are unreasonably delaying the reduction in numbers.
Lord Tyler
Does my noble friend recognise that the whole theme of today’s debate—and, I thought, the consensus all around the House—was that we are setting in place urgent but transitional measures? As I pointed out to your Lordships earlier, the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister anticipate the first elections for the House taking place in 2015. So what is the point of delaying the implementation of this Bill when, frankly, it is urgent and necessary now and there is a strong consensus to do that?
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we are anticipating that the main Bill, subject to the scrutiny by the Joint Select Committee, will somehow not succeed. I do not agree with that.
Lord Cormack
We are anticipating no such thing. Some of us hope that these proposals will come to naught. Others wish them to succeed. At the moment, none of us knows. Although the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and I take diametrically opposed views on the composition of a future House, we both recognise that there are certain urgent housekeeping duties that should be put into effect in this present House. That is all that my noble friend Lord Steel is seeking to do. To delay it until after the next general election would be an absolute nonsense. We would either then be having the first elections, or we would have nearly another four years of the imperfections which we are currently seeking to put right.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, everyone agrees that there are some imperfections in certain circumstances, but they are not all of equal importance. I shall not labour the point too much longer. I happen to think that it would be better if this Bill came into force after the next general election, but I do not think that that will find much favour with your Lordships. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Astor
Viscount Astor
My Lords, when I looked just now at the amendment that I had put down, I thought to myself, “Why on earth did I put it down?” Luckily, some inspiration came to me and I remembered.
The amendment would remove Clause 18(1). I put it down because I was unclear as to why Parts 1 and 3 should not come into force for three months. On Part 1, I realise that it would take some time to set up the appointments commission, which I presume is the reason. Therefore, I perhaps should not have included Part 1 in the amendment and I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Steel. In any event, he does not wish to proceed with Part 1.
However, it is relevant to ask my noble friend about Part 3. I was unclear on why Part 3, on permanent leave of absence and failure to attend the House, should not come into force at the same time as the rest of the Act. It seemed to me that there was no reason to delay Part 3 being enacted when the Bill is passed. I beg to move.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, I think—though I bow to the expertise of my noble friend Lord Norton sitting next to me—that the reason for the provision is to allow the Government to do precisely what the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, recommended. In other words, they have three months in which to come forward with a statutory instrument. I would urge us to keep that in, because I am keen to keep up the pressure on the Government to do exactly that.
Viscount Astor
I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply, but there is presumably no reason why Part 3 cannot be enacted, because the enactment is then followed up by a Standing Order. Therefore, there is no reason why it cannot be enacted immediately, and the Standing Order can follow whenever the Government wish. I do not see that there is any advantage in having the period of three months.
Lord Cormack
It would be enacted. There are very many Bills that we enact, and there are provisions within them for certain of the measures which they contain to come into force in three months—it is 12 months in some cases. There is nothing constitutionally inaccurate or peculiar in that; it is perfectly normal.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I do not wish to be offensive to my noble friend Lord Astor, but the amendment would be incompetent, because if you left subsection (2) on its own, it would not make any sense.
Viscount Astor
I did realise that, and I apologise to the noble Lord for not getting my amendment exactly right, but my purpose was to ask why Part 3 did not come into force straightaway. My noble friend has given me somewhat of an answer which clarifies the matter.
The Earl of Caithness
I remind my noble friend Lord Astor that it is up to the person who introduces the Bill to get the amendments correct. We are not legal draftsmen as mere Back-Benchers. With a government Bill, I often had to accept amendments that were technically incorrect or had subsequent consequential amendments. It was the will of the House that the principle was agreed to and then it was sorted out later. My noble friend Lord Astor should not be penalised for making that little mistake.
Viscount Astor
Well, I am grateful for support wherever I can get it. I am grateful, too, to my noble friend Lord Steel for his explanation, which I think I understand. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Earl of Caithness
“The House of Lords Appointments CommissionThe Commissioners1 (1) The Commission is to consist of seven members (“Commissioners”) appointed by Her Majesty.
(2) One of the Commissioners (“the chair”) is to be appointed by Her Majesty to chair the Commission.
(3) Her Majesty’s powers under sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) are exercisable on the recommendation of the Prime Minister.
(4) The Prime Minister is to select persons for recommendation on merit on the basis of fair and open competition.
(5) A Minister of the Crown may not be appointed as a Commissioner.
(6) If a Commissioner becomes a Minister of the Crown, that person ceases to be a Commissioner.
Terms and conditions: general2 (1) Subject to the provisions of this Schedule, the chair and the other Commissioners hold office in accordance with the terms and conditions of their appointment.
(2) Those terms and conditions are to be determined by the Joint Committee.
Terms of office3 (1) The chair and the other Commissioners are to be appointed for a fixed term of 10 years.
(2) A person who ceases to hold office as the chair also ceases to hold office as a Commissioner.
(3) A person may not be appointed as a Commissioner more than once.
Resignation4 (1) The chair may resign from office by notifying the Prime Minister of the resignation.
(2) The other Commissioners may resign from office by notifying the chair (or, if the office of chair is vacant, the Prime Minister) of the resignation.
Removal from office5 (1) Her Majesty may remove the chair from office on an address of both Houses of Parliament.
(2) Her Majesty may remove any of the other Commissioners from office on an address of both Houses of Parliament.
(3) A motion for an address under sub-paragraph (1) or (2) may be made (in either House) only if the Joint Committee has reported to the House that it is satisfied that one or more of the removal conditions is met.
(4) The removal conditions are that—
(a) the person is absent from 3 successive meetings of the Commission without the Commission’s approval,(b) the person is convicted of an offence,(c) a bankruptcy restrictions order or undertaking (but not an interim order) under a provision listed in sub-paragraph (6) comes into force in relation to the person,(d) a debt relief restrictions order or undertaking (but not an interim order) under Schedule 4ZB to the Insolvency Act 1986 comes into force in relation to the person, or(e) the person is unfit or unable to carry out the functions of the office.(5) For the purpose of determining if a person is convicted of an offence—
(a) it does not matter where the person is convicted, and(b) an act punishable under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom is an offence for the purposes of this paragraph (however it is described in that law). (6) The provisions referred to in sub-paragraph (4)(c) are—
(a) Schedule 4A to the Insolvency Act 1986;(b) section 56A or 56G of the Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 1985;(c) Schedule 2A to the Insolvency (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 (S.I. 1989/2405 (N.I. 19)).Remuneration6 (1) The terms and conditions on which a person is appointed as the chair or as one of the other Commissioners may provide for the Commission—
(a) to pay remuneration and allowances to the person;(b) to make provision for a pension in relation to that person.(2) The Commission must make the payment or provision accordingly.
Code of conduct7 (1) The Commission must prepare, and may from time to time revise, a code of conduct for the chair and the other Commissioners.
(2) The code must in particular—
(a) incorporate the Nolan principles or such other similar principles as may be adopted by the Commission from time to time, and(b) include provision about the disclosure of interests by the chair and the other Commissioners.(3) “The Nolan principles” means the seven general principles of public life set out in the First Report of the Committee on Standards in Public Life (Cm 2850).
(4) The Commission must submit the code (or revision) to the Joint Committee.
(5) The code does not come into effect until it is approved by the Joint Committee.
Powers8 The Commission may do anything (except borrow money) which is calculated to facilitate the carrying out of its functions or is incidental or conducive to the carrying out of those functions.
Committees etc9 (1) The Commission may establish committees, and committees of the Commission may establish sub-committees.
(2) All members of a committee or sub-committee must be Commissioners.
(3) A committee may delegate functions (including functions delegated to it) to a sub-committee or to one of the Commissioners.
Procedure and proceedings10 (1) The Commission may determine its own procedure and the procedure of its committees and sub-committees (including quorum).
(2) The validity of proceedings of the Commission or a committee or sub-committee is not affected by—
(a) a vacancy among the members, or(b) a defect in the appointment of a member.Staff11 (1) The Commission must appoint a chief executive.
(2) The Commission may appoint other staff.
(3) The chief executive and other staff are to be appointed on terms and conditions determined by the Commission, having regard to the desirability of keeping them broadly in line with those applying to persons employed in the civil service of the State.
Interim staff12 (1) The chair of the Joint Committee may appoint a person to act as chief executive until the first appointment under paragraph 11(1) takes effect.
(2) A person acting under sub-paragraph (1) may incur expenditure and do other things (including appointing persons to the Commission’s staff) in the name and on behalf of the Commission—
(a) before the membership of the Commission is first constituted in accordance with paragraph 1, and(b) after that, until the Commission determines otherwise.(3) A person’s powers under sub-paragraph (2) are exercisable subject to any directions given to the person by the chair of the Joint Committee.
(4) The chair of the Joint Committee may appoint other persons to the Commission’s staff.
(5) The chair of the Joint Committee may not exercise the power in sub-paragraph (4) after the membership of the Commission is first constituted in accordance with paragraph 1.
Staff pensions13 (1) Employment by the Commission is included among the kinds of employment to which a scheme under section 1 of the Superannuation Act 1972 may apply.
(2) The Commission must pay to the Minister for the Civil Service the sums determined by the Minister in respect of any increase attributable to this paragraph in the sums payable out of money provided by Parliament under that Act.
(3) In Schedule 1 to the Superannuation Act 1972 (kinds of employment to which a scheme under section 1 of the Act may apply), at the end of the list of “Royal Commissions and other Commissions” insert—
“House of Lords Appointments Commission.”
Delegation to staff14 (1) The Commission may delegate functions to any of the Commission’s staff, other than the functions listed in paragraph 9(5).
(2) A committee or sub-committee may delegate functions (including functions delegated to it) to any of the Commission’s staff.
(3) A Commissioner may delegate functions (including functions delegated to the Commissioner) to any of the Commission’s staff.
(4) The chief executive may delegate functions (including functions delegated to the chief executive) to any of the Commission’s staff.
Delegation and contracting out of superannuation functions15 (1) Section 1(2) of the Superannuation Act 1972 (delegation of functions relating to civil service superannuation schemes by Minister for the Civil Service to another officer of the Crown etc.) has effect as if the reference to an officer of Commission’s chief executive.
(2) Any administration function conferred on the chief executive under section 1(2) of that Act (in accordance with sub-paragraph (1)) may be carried out by, or by employees of, any person authorised by the chief executive.
(3) “Administration function” means a function of administering schemes made under section 1 of that Act, and from time to time in force.
(4) Under sub-paragraph (2), the chief executive may authorise a person to carry out administration functions—
(a) to their full extent or to a specified extent;(b) in all cases or in specified cases;(c) unconditionally or subject to specified conditions.(5) An authorisation under sub-paragraph (2)—
(a) is to be treated for all purposes as given by virtue of an order under section 69 of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 (contracting out of functions of Ministers and office-holders);(b) may be revoked at any time by the Commission or the chief executive.Status16 (1) The Commission, its members and its staff are not to be regarded—
(a) as the servants or agents of the Crown, or(b) as enjoying any status, immunity or privilege of the Crown. (2) The Commission’s property is not to be regarded as property of, or property held on behalf of, the Crown.
Funding17 (1) The Commission’s expenditure is to be paid out of money provided by Parliament.
(2) For each financial year other than its first, the Commission must prepare an estimate of the Commission’s use of resources and submit it to the Joint Committee.
(3) The Joint Committee must review the estimate and decide whether it is satisfied that the estimate is consistent with the efficient and cost-effective discharge by the Commission of its functions.
(4) If not so satisfied, the Joint Committee must make such modifications to the estimate as it considers necessary for achieving that consistency.
(5) Before deciding whether it is satisfied or making modifications, the Joint Committee must consult the Treasury and have regard to any advice given.
(6) After the Joint Committee has reviewed the estimate and made any modifications, the person who chairs the Joint Committee must lay the estimate before the House of Commons.
(7) If the Joint Committee does not follow any advice given by the Treasury, or makes any modifications to the estimate, it must prepare a statement of it’s the statement before the House of Commons.
Accounts and accounting officer18 (1) The Commission must keep proper accounting records.
(2) The Commission must, for each financial year, prepare accounts in accordance with directions given to it by the Treasury.
(3) The Treasury may in particular give the Commission directions as to—
(a) the information to be contained in the accounts and how it is to be presented,(b) the methods and principles in accordance with which the accounts are to be prepared, and(c) any additional information that is to accompany the accounts.(4) The Commission’s chief executive is to be its accounting officer.
Audit19 (1) As soon as reasonably practicable after the end of each financial year, the Commission must submit its accounts for that year to the Comptroller and Auditor General and to the Joint Committee.
(2) The Comptroller and Auditor General must—
(a) examine and certify the accounts submitted under this paragraph, and(b) lay before each House of Parliament a copy of the certificate and the accounts together with the report on them.Reports20 (1) As soon as reasonably practicable after the end of each financial year, the Commission must prepare a report about the performance of its functions during that year.
(2) The person who chairs the Joint Committee must lay the report before each House of Parliament.
(3) When the report has been laid before each House the Commission must publish it.
Documentary evidence21 (1) A document purporting to be duly executed under the seal of the Commission or signed on its behalf—
(a) is to be received in evidence, and(b) unless the contrary is proved, is to be taken to be executed or signed in that way.(2) This paragraph does not extend to Scotland.
Disqualification 22 (1) In Part 2 of Schedule 1 to the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 (bodies of which all members are disqualified), at the appropriate place insert— “The House of Lords Appointments Commission.”
(2) In Part 2 of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 (bodies of which all members are disqualified), at the appropriate place insert—
“The House of Lords Appointments Commission.”
Freedom of information23 In Part 6 of Schedule 1 to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (other public bodies and offices which are public authorities), the entry for “The House of Lords Appointments Commission” is to be treated as a reference to the Commission.
Public records24 In Schedule 1 to the Public Records Act 1958 (definition of public records) at the appropriate place in Part 2 of the Table at the end of paragraph 3 insert—
“The House of Lords Appointments Commission.”
Interpretation25 In this Schedule “financial year” means—
(a) the period beginning with the day on which the Commission is established and ending with the next following 31 March, and (b) each successive period of 12 months.”
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I shall move Amendment 142 very quickly because I need to apologise to the House. When I introduced Amendment 138 in regard to the referendum, I said that there were consequential amendments to it which we had not discussed. I am afraid I was technically wrong because the point I made on that amendment actually refers to this amendment. Your Lordships will see that there are amendments to my amendment for a statutory appointments commission and Amendment 142 is a schedule to something that we have not already discussed. I do not intend to speak any more to this amendment. I wanted to get on the record what I had to say and, in order to do so, I had to move the amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, we have had a very good humoured debate throughout the day. It began perhaps a little fractiously in the morning but—
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel)
Before the noble Lord responds, I have to call Amendment 143 as an amendment to Amendment 142.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, in order to allow the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to speak, I am not going to move Amendments 143 to Amendments 161 inclusive because they are amendments to Amendment 142 which I am going to withdraw for the reasons I have said. I had to move it to get on the record my apology to the House.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
I am sorry. Can I say that Amendments 143 to 161 are not moved?
Lord Steel of Aikwood
For the third time, we have done useful work today. We have carried out the work that we are here to do. We have scrutinised the Bill line by line and we have put through three important housekeeping measures, which I am very keen we should report to the House and then move on to Report stage.
I am well aware that not everyone agrees with the withdrawal of the provisions for the statutory appointments commission. The amendment dealt with that but there are also about 116 amendments dealing with the appointments commission. It is not my wish that we should proceed with those but my noble friends Lord Caithness and Lord Trefgarne have every right, if they wish to, to start the proceedings on 116 amendments and keep us here until 3 o’clock. I appeal to their sense of the mood of the House and the votes that have already been made and to accept that that will not get us anywhere; it would simply mean that the Bill would be talked out. That would be a tragedy because, as I say, we have done good work today. It has been a good humoured debate and I would appeal to them to allow us to move to delete Clauses 1 to 9 of the Bill and we can all go home early.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, it is a matter of opinion as to whether we have done good work today. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, thinks that we have done good work because we have done what he wanted us to do. However, for those of us who were thoroughly opposed to Parts 2, 3 and 4 of the Bill, we have done a day’s really bad work and it might be quite nice to start working on an appointments commission, which we badly need. If we worked on that, we would be doing good work.
Viscount Astor
Perhaps I could ask my noble friend Lord Steel a question. He has an amendment coming up, Amendment 163, which changes the Title of the Bill. It removes the provision,
“for the appointment of a Commission to make recommendations to the Crown for the creation of life peerages”.
Surely if that amendment is moved and carried by your Lordships' House, that is the moment when we should decide on whether to proceed with any of the following clauses.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend but while that is an outcome devoutly to be wished, unfortunately the rules of the House do not permit it. The Companion says that the determination of the Long Title of the Bill has to come after all other amendments have been considered. That is why we are stuck with this position that unless noble Lords agree to proceed to move, on the clause stand part motions, to remove Clauses 1 to 9 then we are bound to go on and we will not get to the Long Title.
Viscount Astor
I quite understand my noble friend but I would just point out to him that in the Marshalled List, which is prepared by the Clerks, Amendment 163 is there. It is then followed by the amendment of Clause 19 and it then goes on to Amendments 1, 2 and 3. Is the noble Lord saying that we will have to postpone dealing with Amendment 163 until the end of the session today?
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
It may be helpful if I tell noble Lords that Amendment 163 is in the wrong place and that it should come at the very end.
Viscount Astor
I am very grateful. I now understand the point that my noble friend was making and I am grateful to him.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I understand that the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as to whether we have had a good day today are subjective, as the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, indicated. I have to say that we wonder every day whether we have had a good day in this Chamber. It really rather depends which side of the Chamber one is sitting on. Today, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel, that we have had a good day. The housekeeping matters that we have discussed and agreed upon are extremely important for the working of this House—important for our internal workings, but also in reputational terms for this House. I hope that we can expedite proceedings today to ensure that the next time we consider this Bill, it will be on Report so that we can then take it forward and ensure that it is enacted at the earliest opportunity.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, it is true, as has just been said by the Chairman, that Amendment 163 is in the wrong place; it should come right at the end. However, I think I am also right in saying, although it does not say this on the notice of today’s business, that this is a provisional grouping and that it is open to anyone to move the amendment where it actually falls in the Bill. In which case, one can perhaps then take Amendment 163 at the end but, in order to get to that, one would need to deal with the matters which are ahead of it.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I strongly support what both my noble friend Lord Steel and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, have said. My noble friends Lord Trefgarne and Lord Caithness have tabled a series of amendments because they are unhappy about the appointments commission. My noble friend Lord Steel wishes to delete all of those clauses, so in that sense there is no difference between us. We have dealt with housekeeping matters. The votes this morning indicated that there was a broad consensus across the House, with all parties and the Cross Benches wanting to see these matters of housekeeping addressed, and addressed expeditiously.
It would be extremely unfortunate if the House allowed this Bill to be talked out this afternoon, when we can rise in a seemly and proper manner earlier than we had originally planned. We can then come back on Report and Third Reading, where my noble friend Lord Steel has already indicated that he is more than willing to take on board a number of the important points that have been made by colleagues in all parts of the House. We will then have done what we should rightly do, which is to put our own House in order, which is what this Bill seeks to do.
Whatever the ultimate aspirations or ambitions of any Member present are for the future second Chamber—whether appointed, elected or hybrid—none of those views is in any way dealt with by our dealing with this housekeeping matter and putting our own House in order. Therefore, I very much hope that, in the spirit of geniality that has prevailed for most of this debate, we can now draw our proceedings to a conclusion and come back on Report at a fairly early date.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
If that is the sense of the House, the appropriate procedure, as I have been informed by the Clerk, is to go through from Amendment 1, not moving the various amendments and knocking out each clause as we come to the clause stand part debates, and then deal with Amendment 163, which is an amendment to the Title of the Bill. We will then have achieved what several Members of the House have suggested is the consensus in the appropriate procedural manner.
Lord Low of Dalston
With great respect, is it not possible for us to achieve what I think the House as a whole wants to achieve in a more expeditious way that does not simply rely on a self-denying ordinance on the part of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, or the rather more laborious procedure that has just been suggested? Is it competent for me to move that the House do now proceed straight to consider Amendment 163?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the expression on the Clerk’s face said it all. I am sorry it was not possible for everyone to see it. The appropriate procedure would be to allow the Chairman to proceed on this basis. We will then come to Amendment 163. We do have procedures in the House that we have to follow.
Lord Higgins
Is it not the case that a simple way to proceed is not to move Amendments 142 to 117, to deal with Clauses 1, 2 and 3 and then to proceed to Amendment 163? That will take only a moment or two.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, while people mull over the various possibilities of what might happen, and without wishing to prolong proceedings at all, may I simply ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, one question? If he gets a fair wind today and we finish the Committee stage, will he give a categorical assurance that when we come back on Report we will not be faced again by the prospect of large chunks of the Bill being jettisoned at the last minute?
Lord Northbrook
My Lords, I am disappointed that we will not be discussing the appointments commission today, particularly, as was said earlier, in view of what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, said on the Constitutional Reform Act. My concern is that if the Government’s reform Bill runs into the sand, we would be left in limbo and no statutory appointments commission would be appointed at all.
The Earl of Erroll
I rise to speak to the same point as the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook. I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, was here at the start when I made a statement about one of the dangers of this. I have heard it said that these are just transitional provisions many times before. It is exactly what was said in 1998 about the 1999 Act, in 1911 and so on. This may not end up being transitional. This could in the end be a long-term Act that stays in place for a long time. The end result of this, over the next decade or two, would be a fully appointed House, which is not the wish expressed by a democratic vote of the other place. Therefore, through the backdoor, we have not done what was expected. The hereditary Peers, who were left here to ensure that further democratic reform took place—as was decided in the debates back in 1998—will be got rid of without getting what was desired, which is democratic reform. The problem with that is, if there is no further movement, we will end up with an appointments commission which is not fit for purpose for the future.
Lord Lea of Crondall
I am sorry, but is not that hypothesis incorrect? The noble Earl makes a big statement, which he is going to develop further, on the hypothesis that the House of Commons has no further say in this matter.
The Earl of Erroll
If this Bill gets to the House of Commons, it might get through. We cannot tell what is going to happen and in what circumstances. We might, through the vagaries of the parliamentary process, end up with this measure being in place for much longer than we expect, in which case it has to have the “i”s dotted and the “t”s crossed. This is very good as a transitional measure at the moment as regards the independent appointments commission, but it has to be improved and tidied up if it is going to stand the test of time over a couple of decades. We need to sort that out. We should not just push this through and say that we are doing a brief tidying-up exercise. That is a sloppy way to legislate. Certainly, if I were a director of a company and behaved like this as regards company governance, I would be fired.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we have 40 minutes to decide whether we wish to send this to Report stage or not. Some may be happier to do that than others. I stress that the Government are neutral on this Bill, as noble Lords know. The consensus of the House appears to be that this is a housekeeping Bill. It is not the case that nothing else is happening. The Government have put forward a draft Bill that proposes a much more comprehensive scheme of reform. There is now a Joint Committee sitting on that which has held its first two sessions. That includes the proposal for a statutory appointments committee, so things are moving on a much broader and more comprehensive front. I have carefully noted that a number of the hereditaries who have spoken in this debate have declared their passionate enthusiasm for an 80 per cent or 100 per cent elected House. I look forward to them giving enthusiastic support to the Government’s comprehensive scheme when that comes before us.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, before my noble friend Lord Steel, or the House, decides how to proceed, I should say that I take slight issue with my noble friend Lord Cormack referring to this Bill—as did other noble Lords—as a little housekeeping Bill. It does away with the hereditary Peer by-elections. That is not a simple housekeeping matter. Whatever may be noble Lords’ views on it, it is an important issue and, we say, goes to the heart of the undertakings given back in 1999. This is not a small housekeeping Bill—it has important constitutional ramifications—and I hope that it will not be characterised as such.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, may I move that the House resolves to proceed by the most expeditious and efficacious procedure, as advised by the Clerk, to consider Amendment 163?
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, for reasons that have already been explained, the Companion states that we cannot do that. We have to deal with all the other amendments before we get to Amendment 163. That is not my wish; it is actually in the Companion.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
We can do it. If Members would stop talking, we could get on.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, with respect, I wanted to suggest that we follow precisely the correct procedure of which the Clerk has advised us; that is, to go as briskly as we can through all the earlier amendments and clauses and arrive at Amendment 163 as rapidly as we can.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
If I can just interject, we are on Amendment 142. It is possible, and there is time, to deal with Amendment 142. If noble Lords do not want to tarry on other amendments, there is time to conclude.
The Earl of Caithness
No, my Lords, with respect to the Chairman, we are debating Amendment 142 at the moment and the noble Lord, Lord Steel, is on his feet. I have yet to speak on it again.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I simply want to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes. If I heard him correctly, he was asking me for an undertaking that if and when we get to Report I will not bring forward any major changes to the Bill. Was that what he was asking for?
Lord Hughes of Woodside
It was indeed, and that we would not be faced with the prospect that we faced this morning when we turned up to find out that a large part of the Bill had again been jettisoned.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I can give the noble Lord that assurance. The only changes that I foresee at Report would be those matters on which I have already given undertakings to colleagues, particularly as regards the clauses on sentencing, which I will discuss further with the House authorities at the other end and with the Ministry of Justice, because we must make sure that we get that right. That is my undertaking to colleagues who have moved amendments. With that exception, the Bill as we have now agreed it may now proceed as suggested and will come forward for Report as it is.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, perhaps I may again suggest what I suggested previously. The easiest way to do this is that when the noble Lord has spoken to and withdrawn Amendment 142, the subsequent amendments on the Order Paper—other than Amendment 163—should not be moved. We will then vote on Clauses 1, 2 and 3 and then on Amendment 163. We will then proceed quickly.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, is very beguiling and put the onus firmly on my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me. That was a little unfair but that is all in the game of politics, and I accept it. He will know that there are also other amendments. The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, my noble friend Lord Astor and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, who is not in his place, have tabled amendments. It is therefore not up to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me to decide that we can suddenly say, “I give way to the noble Lord, Lord Steel”. I repeat that the noble Lord should have discussed his proposal with me previously because I have done a huge amount of work on the first part of the Bill up to Clause 10. I spent many hours preparing these amendments and it is an absolute abuse of any Member of your Lordships' House to be treated in such a way. It is quite wrong.
I have amendments on not just the appointments commission but I have an amendment to create a Joint Committee on a House of Lords appointments commission. Such a proposal is in the Government’s draft Bill and is highly relevant. I want a statutory appointments commission and I am now being denied a chance to debate it—or I am being pressurised by my noble friend Lord Steel not to debate it. However, it is hugely important that we have a statutory commission. As I said right at the beginning, it was my noble friend Lord Steel who wanted a statutory appointments commission. It was he who moved an amendment to the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, regretting that there was not to be a statutory appointments commission. Now it does not suit my noble friend to have an appointments commission in the Bill because he is so keen to get the rest of it through.
My noble friend had another opportunity; he could quite legitimately have withdrawn the Bill and introduced another Bill with no provision for a statutory appointments commission. That would have been the right and proper thing to do. The fact is that he quite deliberately did not do that. He deliberately moved a Motion that has made it extremely difficult for us to have a sensible discussion on a lot of the amendments. I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, my noble friend Lord Astor or the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, think about their amendments. Having done all the work, I should actually like to get on and discuss my amendments. However, I understand that I am in a minority.
Nevertheless, there is an important principle here. Just because one is in a minority in this House does not mean that one does not have the right to move amendments, and one should not be unduly pressurised—which my noble friend is doing to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me—not to move amendments on which we have spent an awful lot of time.
Had it been the other way round at the beginning, and the statutory appointments commission had been right at the end, the noble Lord would have had a more valid case. He could have said: “We have got so far, but we are going to hit the magic hour of three o'clock. Don't let's discuss any more”. That would be much more logical. I cannot decide alone. For a start, Amendment 1 is important. It contains a purpose clause. It is indeed the clause that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, introduced himself the last time that we discussed this. If he wanted it then, surely he wants it now. These are not matters that can be dismissed lightly. Without the approval of other noble Lords, I cannot make a decision for them. We shall see how we proceed, but I beg to withdraw Amendment 142.
The Earl of Caithness
“SCHEDULEThe Joint Committee on the House of Lords Appointments CommissionMembers1 (1) The Joint Committee is to consist of the following—
(a) a Minister of the Crown with responsibilities in relation to constitutional matters who is a member of the House of Commons;(b) four members of the House of Lords who are not Ministers of the Crown;(c) four members of the House of Commons who are not Ministers of the Crown;(d) the person who chairs the relevant committee of the House of Lords;(e) the person who chairs the relevant committee of the House of Commons.(2) Members of the Joint Committee are to be appointed—
(a) for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(a) by the Prime Minister,(b) for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) by the House of Lords, and(c) for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(c) by the House of Commons.(3) The Joint Committee is to select one of its members to chair it.
(4) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(d) and (e), the relevant committee of the House of Lords or the House of Commons is the committee of that House concerned with constitutional matters, so far as relating to membership of the House of Lords.
(5) Any question arising under sub-paragraph (4) is to be determined by the Speaker of the House in question.
Terms of office of members2 (1) In this paragraph “appointed member of the Joint Committee” means a member appointed under paragraph 1(2).
(2) Except as provided by this paragraph, an appointed member of the Joint Committee is a member of the Joint Committee for the remainder of the Parliament in which the person is appointed.
(3) If an appointed member of the Joint Committee who is a member of the House of Lords ceases to be a member of that House, that person ceases to be member of the Joint Committee.
(4) If an appointed member of the Joint Committee who is a member of the House of Commons ceases to be a member of that House, that person ceases to be a member of the Joint Committee.
(5) If an appointed member of the Joint Committee within paragraph 1(1)(b) or (c) becomes a Minister of the Crown, that person ceases to be a member of the Joint Committee.
(6) An appointed member of the Joint Committee ceases to be a member of the Joint Committee if another person is appointed in that person’s place.
(7) An appointed member of the Joint Committee may resign from the Joint Committee by notifying the Committee of the resignation.
(8) An appointed member of the Joint Committee may be reappointed (more than once).
Procedure3 (1) The Joint Committee may establish sub-committees.
(2) The validity of proceedings of the Joint Committee or a sub-committee is not affected by—
(a) a vacancy among its members, or(b) a defect in the appointment of a member.”
The Earl of Caithness
I would be quite happy to move the amendment; that would take us through to 3.30 pm. It is a schedule to something to which I have not yet been permitted to speak. It concerns the Joint Committee; it is very important, but I will not move it.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, let me just try something without being partial, because it is up to the House what it does. There is half an hour. Your Lordships may remember that on 20 July we were debating the Localism Bill, a government Bill. During a wonderful period between about 7.30 pm and 8 pm, everybody agreed to withdraw amendments and leave it until Report. Many different people were involved who were concerned with several different amendments. That decision was taken; it was left to Report, and Report on the Bill has now concluded. That would be a way forward, if that is what the House wishes, but it is in the hands of the House whether it wishes to do something like that or to proceed with several amendments and, perhaps, not get too far today.
Lord Trefgarne
My noble friend Lord Caithness and I cannot be asked to agree something on behalf of other noble Lords. It is not just my noble friend and myself who have tabled amendments to Part 1.
Lord Trefgarne
I heard an interjection from behind me, but I am not sure who it was. It is not just up to us. As my noble friend pointed out, we have given a lot of thought and consideration to these matters. We do not know quite what will happen in future. I am very reluctant to agree to a fast-track procedure, if that is the right term, on Part 1. If I may say so, we are once more reaping the whirlwind of the precipitate action of my noble friend Lord Steel in altering the order of consideration of the Bill in the Motion which we agreed earlier today. I would prefer to go through, as quickly as we can, the remaining clauses of the Bill. That would be the right way to proceed.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, it may help the House to know that my noble friend Lord Dubs does not intend to move his amendments this afternoon and will come back to them on Report.
Lord Cormack
If we took the advice of my noble friend Lord Shutt and deferred everything remaining until Report, that would be the other way to do it. The least satisfactory way is to end untidily today, not having completed Committee and therefore having Report at some indeterminate time in the future, with another Committee day having to intervene. Either we go through with automatic not moving, as it were, or, if that is not considered appropriate by my noble friend Lord Trefgarne—I would fully understand it if that were his view—can we not do what was done with the Localism Bill: defer the other issues to Report, when at least it will all be done tidily?
The Earl of Erroll
Can I just alert your Lordships to a danger? If we say that all the amendments are withdrawn and that we should leave them until Report, there are two issues. First, if Amendment 163 is then voted through, none of the amendments will qualify for Report. Part 1 will not be there any more. If it has been removed from the Long Title, I do not think that Part 1 can exist. Therefore, as none of the amendments can be debated on Report, it is a cunning way of getting rid of them by the back door. Secondly, there will be a very lengthy Report stage.
Lord Tyler
Of course, Amendment 163 does not have to be pressed to a Division either.
The Earl of Erroll
I bet it will be because you have made sure that there are enough people on your side to get it through. It is a very cunning way of getting this through without the whole House being aware that we are trying to reform the House of Lords and not looking at how people will get here. A half measure is being put in place, which is very dangerous for the future. How people get here is just as important as trying to get rid of people.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, that is not what has been proposed. If the Report stage solution is adopted, Amendment 163 will come at Report. We will not be rubberstamping something today and in so doing, preclude debate on issues that the noble Earl feels should be debated. It is very simple. We will have a Report stage that will be slightly longer, as with the Localism Bill. We are dealing with it in a tidy and seemly manner. We are anticipating nothing; we are pre-empting nothing. If we end untidily this afternoon, all we will do is reflect discredit on our proceedings today. As we have made such good progress in a reasonable and constructive spirit of consensus, surely the noble Earl can see the wisdom of the suggestion that has been made by my noble friend.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
Let me make it clear in response to the noble Earl that I will not move Amendment 163.
Lord Lea of Crondall
Can we hear the advice of the Government Chief Whip and proceed accordingly?
The Earl of Caithness
I am slightly confused. I do not know whether the Deputy Chairman of Committees has called Amendment 1. He certainly did not call any Peer to speak to Amendment 1, so I do not know whether we are in limbo land or debating an amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel)
I was obliged to call Amendment 1 but it was obvious that the Government Chief Whip wanted to say something, so I called it and then invited him to speak. If it is the wish of the Committee I shall call Amendment 1and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness.
Amendment 1
The Earl of Caithness
“Part A1Purpose of the ActProvisions contained within the Act
The four purposes of this Act are—
(a) to establish a statutory Appointments Commission,(b) to end entry into the House of Lords of hereditary peers by-election,(c) to enable peers to retire, and(d) to enable the House to exclude members from the House
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I think that we are now where we should be. I will not speak for all the other Members of your Lordships’ House who are interested in this but there is no doubt that we want to discuss the Standing Committee. I also want to discuss the Joint Committee on the Standing Committee because that brings forward the Government’s draft Bill to an earlier stage. I should have thought that that would be welcome, but we will need to discuss that. Provided that we can discuss all the amendments as scheduled and Amendment 163 to the Long Title is not moved by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for my part I am happy to withdraw Amendment 1. I will do so on the very clear understanding that all the amendments—Amendments 1 to 117 inclusive—will be discussed on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Trefgarne
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, like my noble friend I am in some confusion and difficulty. We have nine clauses left to consider. There are a number of amendments to all those clauses. Some of them were tabled by my noble friend Lord Caithness, some by me and some by other noble Lords. Would it not be better to adjourn the Committee now and find another comparatively short occasion on which we could complete the Committee stage and thereafter proceed to Report stage in the normal manner? I am not trying to squash my noble friend’s Bill. That is not for me to do; that is for your Lordships to decide. I am asking that it be considered in a proper and orderly manner. At the moment we are not doing that. I beg to move.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, it will be considered in an orderly manner on Report and we will have the benefit of having concluded the Committee stage. That is the crucial point before the House. Then we will have proceeded in an orderly, tidy and satisfactory manner. We will have silenced no one, anticipated no one and pre-empted no one, and we will have reflected credit on the House rather than otherwise. I hope that, as his noble friend Lord Caithness has taken the line that he has over Report stage, my noble friend will feel moved to do likewise.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I have suddenly realised that the difficulty with that is that if we go to Report stage, one can speak only once, whereas in Committee one can come back and ask questions for elucidation. That was done today in the happy progress that we made. Will my noble friend Lord Steel recommit to Committee Parts 1 to 9 of the Bill?
The Earl of Caithness
Now I understand exactly what noble Lords are after, and I do not like it: it gets worse and worse. We should recommit to Committee the parts that we have not discussed. There are bound to be questions and times when one wishes to speak a second time, and it would be unfair if one were deprived of that. I leave it to other noble Lords such as the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, and the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, to say what they think. But I think that that way is devious. It is not in the spirit of what we are trying to do to help the noble Lord, Lord Steel, with the part of the Bill that we have agreed so far.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, Hansard will show that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, addressed a point only 10 minutes ago that was quite clear. A proposal was made in good faith and we all thought that he had responded in good faith and said that as long as this can be discussed on Report, he would not have any further worry about the procedure that, in effect, the Government Chief Whip proposed that will enable the House, overwhelmingly and after a considerable amount of give and take, to achieve a clearer position by 3 pm. It is incumbent on the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, to say that that is what he indicated 10 minutes ago, because Hansard will reveal that.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, I intervene because I have had experience of this: it happened during wash-up. I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, does not understand that some of our procedures here, although they look the same, are slightly different from those in the other place. The rules for Committee and Report and what you can do at Third Reading matter. If you introduce an amendment for the first time on Report, as the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, said, you can speak to it only once. That does not cause too much trouble: you can get round it with clever interventions. The problem comes if there is something of fairly major consequence that you wish to approach in a different way, because you may not be able to introduce your amendment at Third Reading. There are rules about the similarity of amendments at Report stage. It is far more flexible in Committee and on Report. Our procedures are designed that way. Third Reading is supposed to be only a tidying up operation to address a few little drafting mistakes, although the Government have tended to extend the definition for their own purposes in the past. For us, certainly on a Private Member's Bill, I am quite sure that that latitude would not be permitted by the procedures of the House, so it is very dangerous to postpone to Report stage.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, it is my understanding that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, moved without debate Amendment 2. Surely we could move to that.
Lord Cormack
Perhaps I may respond to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. The fact of the matter is that at any stage he and a number of his friends can, if they wish, bring proceedings to a halt at Report or Third Reading if they are totally unsatisfied. All I am asking is that we move through Committee this afternoon, we move to Report and that the noble Earl takes part in those debates in a constructive spirit, as we should all try to do. Then we are reflecting credit on this House, rather than ending in a very unsatisfactory, untidy way today.
Lord Northbrook
The reason why the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, changed his thoughts is that I think the goal posts seem to have moved. I do not understand why we are not going to recommit Clauses 1 to 9.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, the procedure we are currently following is indeed filibustering by another name. We are bringing this House into disrepute. We have an excellent Bill before us. The majority will of this House is that we move on. I suggest that we should move on as expeditiously as possible.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I must respond to the noble Lord, Lord Lea. I say to the noble Baroness that I am not filibustering. I have done everything I can to be helpful today. I have said what I have said. My intervention just now was because I had not fully grasped the implications of going straight to Report. I was alerting the House. I will stick by what I said in that we will go to Report, but what I said was prompted by what my noble friend Lord Cormack said which made me realise that, of course, the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Steel, wants that is because we can speak only once on Report. I think that is unfair. However, having given the assurance I gave, I will stick by it, but I reinforce the point that it is a huge abuse of this House on a Private Member's Bill.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, why can we not have another Committee day and finish the Committee that way?
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I beg to move that the Question on Amendment 2 be now put.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
Oh, Amendment 3. It says Amendment 2 on the annunciator.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
The Question is that Amendment 3 be agreed to.
Lord Trefgarne
I fear that the Deputy Chairman has got it wrong. The noble Baroness has moved that the Question be now put. That is a debatable Motion and there is a Standing Order that has to be read out first.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I believe that the Motion that the Question be now put is not debatable.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion that the Question be now put is considered to be the most exceptional procedure and the House will not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of business in the House. Further, if a Lord who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Question on the Motion is put without debate. The Question is that the Question be now put.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
In that case, the amendment is still in play and I would like to speak to it in the dying minutes of this day. The position is this. A small minority of Members in the House have the capacity to nullify all the work that we have done today. They also have the right to do that; that is not in dispute. I make one final appeal to those noble Lords. I am willing to discuss with them which parts of the Bill they feel strongly about should come forward at Report stage. We can then move to Report stage. It is not in my gift to command a second Committee day. We know that this Session ends next April. We have done good work today. I do not want to see it viciated, and I hope in that spirit that the minority of Members in the House who feel strongly about this will agree to discussions, and allow this Bill to complete its Committee stage and go to Report.
The Earl of Caithness
I would add merely that it was quite wrong for that Division to be called when every effort was being made to get a sensible solution.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I completely concur with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, and I look to the government Benches and Government Chief Whip to inform us of what happens next.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, there are five minutes left. If every amendment is called, it can be dealt with. That would take a bit of time, but that would be it. If that does not happen, I will have to move that the House do resume.
The Earl of Erroll
If it is removed, it cannot be debated on Report. Is that correct?
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, as I understand it, it would not be in the Bill and therefore would not be discussed on Report.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
Perhaps I may make one further clarification. I would have hoped that we would withdraw all these clauses. I will discuss with my noble friends things that they may wish to put back in. I will not move Amendment 163, so it will remain in the Long Title. Noble Lords might wish to put something in on Report on the appointments commission. They might want, for example, to bring it into line with the Government’s proposals. I have no idea. But that option is still open to them. It is not true that we cannot debate it. If we leave the Long Title as it is, it will be. As I have said, I will not move Amendment 163 when we get to it. I suggest that we withdraw those clauses and have Not-Content to the clause stand part.
Lord Trefgarne
I should like to suggest a different procedure but in the same spirit as that suggested by my noble friend. Leave the clauses in but at the same time not move the amendments so that the clauses, unamended, remain in the Bill. Then we can discuss again the amendments when we get to the next stage.