House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, one is judged all too often by the company one keeps. I want to make it clear that the reason why my name is added to those who oppose Clause 10 has to do with a wider purpose which relates to Part 1. Therefore, I dissent entirely from the arguments that have been made so far on the clause stand part debate.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I would like the clause to remain in the Bill. I say that on a straight point of principle because in 1999 many of us who disapproved of much of the House of Lords Act 1999 were assured that 92 hereditary Peers would remain in this House until there was a major reform of the House of Lords. Clearly, this Bill does not satisfy that criterion. When we last debated this last year, my noble friend Lord Steel argued that it did. He said that he had the support of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, who was the Lord Chancellor in 1999, who had said that this Bill met the criteria that he had in mind for the second phase of reform of the House of Lords. However, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde pointed out that, notwithstanding that, it would have been unlikely that an agreement such as was reached in 1999 would have been reached with my noble friend had he known that this Bill would have constituted the desired reform.

Things have changed since then, because my noble friend Lord Steel has changed his mind about the Appointments Commission. There is a misunderstanding about the Appointments Commission. In a couple of conversations that I had during the Division, people who voted for my noble friend’s Motion were of the opinion that the Appointments Commission would not be discussed. It will. It is in the Bill. There are amendments to it. Regardless of whether it comes first or last, it will still be discussed. If my noble friend succeeds in removing Part 1, which covers the Appointments Commission, this will certainly not be a Bill to reform the House of Lords. That goes quite against the 1999 agreement. We agreed to that important principle—with hindsight, some of us against our better judgment; I should not have agreed; I should have continued to fight the cause of a proper reform of the House of Lords, a full reform to an elected Chamber, which is what I support. A number of very good working hereditary Peers left this House on an agreement. That agreement will be breached today if the clause is removed from the Bill. To me, that is totally unacceptable.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I recognise the grievance expressed by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. I understand why they feel as strongly as they do. Indeed, they erect their grievance into a point of principle. With great respect to them, I do not think that it really is a point of principle, but even if it is, there is a more important point of principle: a principle that we were reminded of a little earlier by the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby. We need to consider the reputation of this House. I speak as someone who holds individual hereditary Peers in enormous respect and personal affection. I recognise the quality of the work that they do as working Peers in this House, but I believe that the people of this country cannot see a rational justification in 2011 for the hereditary principle as a basis for membership of the legislature. It is 12 years since that agreement was made. In the interests of the reputation of this House, we need to reconsider the position. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, has been entirely right to include the provisions in the Bill.

I also note that the Bill would treat hereditary Peers who are Members of this House with the respect and courtesy that is proper. There is no suggestion that they should all be swept away in one fell swoop. The proposition is that over time, as nature takes its course, the hereditary Peers would disappear from the legislature. That is a decent, practical and proper way to proceed. I very much hope that the House will agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood.

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[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, the Question before the House is that Clause 10 stand part of the Bill. If I may, I will reply to the debate. I think my noble friend Lord Caithness—

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am very surprised that we have not heard from my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire. What is the Government’s view on this? Do they think that this Bill is of such depth and importance that it constitutes the stage two to which my noble friend Lord True has referred, or do they think that we should be bound by the agreement of 1999? As I said, it is very surprising that we have not heard from our government Front Bench on this.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Government are not in favour of undertaking piecemeal reform. We are moving with all deliberate speed towards second stage reform. I am sure that all Members of this House have read the Draft House of Lords Reform Bill. I have now read the transcript of the first two meetings of the Joint Committee considering it. As noble Lords know, we are proposing a wholly or mainly elected reformed second Chamber, which will of course end hereditary membership, allowing for hereditaries to stand for election or to put themselves forward for appointment.

Perhaps I might be allowed to add that I happened yesterday to speak to a cousin of the late Lord Onslow. She reminded me that he liked to say that he saw absolutely no reason why the historical accident that one of your ancestors had got drunk with Pitt—he used a rather more evocative term than “drunk”—should qualify you for membership of a House of the legislature.

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[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, perhaps I may reply to the debate on whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. My noble friend Lord Caithness and others made the perfectly reasonable point that there was an agreement in 1999. I understand that. I thought that he was well answered by my noble friend Lord Elton in a very honest speech as a hereditary Peer saying why we should now move on. Frankly, looking back at Hansard, perhaps I may quote one or two phrases from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, who was then the Lord Chancellor. He said:

“The transitional House will be of short duration”.—[Official Report, 26/10/99; col. 169.]

He also said:

“The transitional House which will be created as a result of the Bill will be exactly that: transitional and not permanent … The notion that the Government would even contemplate the notion of the Weatherill amendment becoming a permanent settlement, as distinct from a short-term compromise, is fanciful”.—[Official Report, 11/5/99; col. 1092.]

That was 12 years ago. I do not think that anyone in the House at that time, and I was there, ever thought that 12 years later we would still be holding these by-elections. That is the point which Clause 10 seeks to address. We are now further on. We have had many by-elections. No one is suggesting that we get rid of hereditary Peers or that those who came in by by-elections are less worthy than anyone else. They have all made a great contribution to the work of this House.

The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, is correct. By-elections that take place among the whole House for a hereditary Peer just pass muster and in the case of the Conservative Party and the Cross-Benches, less so, but there are some numbers. But, frankly, when a Labour or Lib Dem hereditary Peer dies, the numbers are ridiculous. I do not see that in the 21st century we can possibly stand up and say that people become Members of the British Parliament by heredity and election by three or four people. It is simply nonsense. In order to bring that nonsense to an end, Clause 10 should stand part of the Bill.

[The Earl of Caithness]

Will my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire answer the question that I posed to him. Do the Front Bench, and he as spokesman for the Government, think that this Bill constitutes the necessary reform for the removal of by-elections?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I understood that I had already answered. The Government prefer thoroughgoing reform and we are moving in that direction with the current draft Bill. We hope that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and others will give full support to that Bill when it comes through and expedite constructive discussion of it when it reaches this House.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

121: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause—
“Name of the House
On a date to be specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State, which shall not be before 1st January 2020, the House of Lords shall be known as the Senate of the United Kingdom.”

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the name of the House is a hugely important issue. Now that the final ethnic cleansing of hereditary Peers that started in 1999 is going to take place, in my view it is appropriate that this House should no longer be called the House of Lords. The question is: when is a suitable date to make the change? Why should it be called the House of Lords when a section of Peers have been refused entry to it? It is absolutely fine as long as a number of hereditary Peers are here, but as a result of the vote it is now clear that the 1999 agreement has been shredded, and in due course the number of hereditary Peers will drop to zero. The purpose of this amendment is to take account of that situation—

[Lord Cormack]

Is my noble friend really suggesting to the House that the only legitimate Peers are hereditary Peers?

[The Earl of Caithness]

No, I am saying that a section of Peers in the broader sense will be prohibited from sitting in this House and therefore it is not representative of the House of Lords. The House of Lords will not be representative of all the Peers. I know that my noble friend is very keen to get rid of the hereditary Peers. After achieving that goal, it is quite right that the name of the House should change. That is the reason for the amendment. The question is: when is a suitable time for that to take place? I have suggested 1 January 2020, but of course I am open to suggestions. There might actually be a book as to who is going to be the last hereditary Peer to sit in the House of Lords. Let us hope that, long before that, we have a fully elected House of Lords and that it can then properly change its name. But as I believe the majority of Peers in this House wish to retain an appointed, unelected, undemocratic system, I think it is appropriate that the name of this Chamber should change. I beg to move.

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[The Earl of Erroll]

Everyone would retain their title, because it is an honour given to them. The change of name affects the place—this House—and I think that it would be much clearer if we started just being a senate.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I listened particularly carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Wright of Richmond, since your former Permanent Secretary is always somebody you listen to with great care, although one might not always agree with a former Permanent Secretary, or even from time to time with a Permanent Secretary. I tabled this amendment because I wanted to look at the situation that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, mentioned when he intervened. He agreed with me that the name needs to change, but do not let us do it now—let us wait for the government Bill. That is my argument about the Steel Bill—let us wait for the government Bill. It is in a Joint Committee.

My noble friend Lord Steel is a very crafty politician, much craftier than me. He has been down the other end and learnt in the real mill of politics. One is just a humble hereditary Peer. But I would use exactly the same argument that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, has used against me against his whole Bill. Let us wait for the government Bill. But what happens if we do not get a government Bill? We have taken long enough to get to this stage of reform of the House of Lords. What happens if the hereditary Peers die out and this has not been faced? I wonder how the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, sees that one being tackled.

As for my noble friend Lord Jenkin, he is entitled to his opinion. I do not comment on the amendments that he put forward on other Bills, and if he believes what he believes that is fine by me. The amendment is trying to resolve what undoubtedly many in the House see as a potential problem in future. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, that the House should be called a senate and that the sooner that it is fully reformed into an elected Chamber, the better. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 121 withdrawn.

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[Lord Trefgarne]

Again I apologise to the noble Lord. As I was saying—I will say it again quickly—we are now dealing with the confusion caused by my noble friend Lord Steel insisting upon reordering the consideration of these clauses. I will not pursue the consideration of the amendment, which I shall withdraw.

[The Earl of Caithness]

Could we have an answer to the question posed by my noble friend Lord Astor? That is quite relevant to our future discussions. Can we come back to this amendment or to my consequential amendment—which we are about to come to—when we debate the original amendment from which these consequential ones flow?

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, while my noble friend on the Front Bench receives some advice, perhaps I could help your Lordships. I have amendments to Clause 5 in Part 1 of the Bill. I am confused: should we come to Clause 5 after we have dealt with Amendments 10 to 19? Will I be able to move amendments to those clauses? If my noble friend has received some expert advice, I would be grateful if he could answer that question.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

125: Clause 12, page 5, line 34, at end insert—
“( ) A Member of the House of Lords who has taken leave of absence will not be subject to the provisions of this Part.”

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[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, now that this wonderful reasonable atmosphere has taken over the Committee, I have no doubt that my noble friend Lord Steel will also accept this amendment. It is a very simple amendment, because there is already a leave of absence. If somebody has genuinely taken a leave of absence under the existing system before the provisions of this Bill come into effect, why should they be subject to them?

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I am happy to accept the amendment.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I did not envisage this. Even in my better moments, I had not thought that this was going to happen today. I am indeed grateful to my noble friend.

Amendment 125 agreed.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

128: After Clause 14, insert the following new Clause—
“Part 3ARetirementRetirement age
A member of the House of Lords shall not be entitled to receive a Writ of Summons after their 75th birthday.”

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I do not think that my noble friend will be quite as receptive to this amendment as he was to my last. We now face the problem that we have all been skirting around today, but which we have earlier debated on numerous occasions: the question of the size of this House.

It is hoped that a retirement system will encourage people to leave the House. I do not think that that is going to work at all. I do not see it working under the present system of leave of absence. Not many Peers have now taken it, although I have used a leave of absence when I was in my 20s; I was told that it was appropriate to do so if I was not going to be a regular attender in your Lordships’ House, so I did for three years. However, the procedures that we all followed then have fallen into disrepute, and it is not done to the same extent. There is a retirement scheme at the moment, and I understand that two of your Lordships have taken retirement, but I do not think that what my noble friend proposes in the Bill will work.

My noble friend Lord Trefgarne and I have tabled a new clause in Amendment 128, which states:

“A member of the House of Lords shall not be entitled to receive a Writ of Summons after their 75th birthday”.

It is important that the House plays a proper role in the legislative affairs of the nations. It can be debated whether the House is any better now than it was pre-1999; that is an argument into which I will not enter. However, as some of your Lordships may have read in the recent leaders, there has been some pretty unfavourable comment about how the House is behaving and working. Many of your Lordships have complained that there are far too many Peers, so the proposal that my noble friend and I have made is that there should be a retirement age of 75. Yes, we are undoubtedly going to lose some expertise from time to time, but the average age of this House is 69 according to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. I do not know of any other institution or corporate body where the average age is 69. I have now been here for 40 years, and I am still below the average age of the House. To me, that is an absolute nonsense. It has worked very well, I have enjoyed it and I am extremely grateful. However, in 2011, it is not a terribly good way. If the average age of the House is 69, it should be made younger.

My noble friend Lord Trefgarne and I have therefore tabled the amendment. It refers to the 75th birthday; I am open to arguments for 70 or even perhaps 80. But we should at least have this debate, which is really important because it will reduce the size of the House which has been a cause of concern to so many people. I beg to move.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Caithness is right. I am not going to suggest that we accept the amendment for the simple reason that the clauses that we have now passed put the matter in the hands of the Government. We have given statutory authority in accordance with the recommendation, which I am holding in my hand, from the all-party committee under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. Perhaps I may quote from that. He said:

“On the evidence of our extensive consultations, we are confident that there is a broad consensus in the House in support of a provision to enable members voluntarily to leave the House permanently, in order that the overall size of the House may be reduced as soon as possible. We hope that this broad consensus might now be taken as the starting point for a way forward … we are advised that legislation would, strictly speaking, be necessary to override the entitlement to a Writ of Summons”.

I am with my noble friend in his intent, but it is not right to try to prescribe today, in the course of a Committee stage, what the age should be. We should leave that to the Government and the consensus which the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested exists. If the Bill goes through, we will have given the Government the statutory authority. It will then be up to the Government by statutory instrument to come back to the House and produce a scheme which will enable the numbers in the House to be reduced. We should not do it in this arbitrary manner now.

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[Lord Swinfen]

My Lords, if we have an upper age limit for membership of this House we will be throwing away a terrific amount of experience and wisdom. The vast number of noble Lords who came in with the increase since the last election were appointed to this House by the leaders of the political parties in another place. It is not the fault of this House that its numbers have grown. I suggest that as, say, five Members of this House die and, therefore, no longer sit, they are replaced by only two or three new Members. We will need new Members to keep new and younger blood coming to the House, but in that way we could have a gradual reduction in numbers.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, again, I am grateful to all of your Lordships who have taken part in this debate. Let me start with my noble friend Lord Swinfen, who has just sat down; I hope that he will bring forward an amendment on his proposals.

I absolutely take the point about losing a lot of wisdom from people over 75. It was a concern of mine when we tabled this amendment but it was right to have had this important debate. My noble friend Lord Norton of Louth said, quite rightly, that we must differentiate between active and passive Peers. I would only say to him that he should have supported me when it came to the abolition of hereditaries in 1999 because all that Bill did, in fact, was to get rid of about 90 active hereditary Peers. The majority of the hereditary Peers who were excommunicated from this House were not active Members and although the House appeared large in number, if we ever got a vote of 300 in those days it was indeed a large vote, as the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, will remember. That argument should have applied to hereditary Peers but it was of course an inconvenient argument for the Government to accept. It will be a convenient argument for them to accept this time but it was inconvenient 12 years ago.

That brings me to the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, who said that I have an amendment to limit the House to 300 people, which indeed I have, and that we could not staff the existing committees. To follow up on what I have just been saying, pre-1999 we did not have the number of committees. It is only because we have grown like Topsy that we have increased the number of committees, and we will go on increasing them. There is no end to the demand that we must have a committee for this and a committee for that and, as the numbers increase—which they undoubtedly will until we get a proper reform of this House—we will keep on increasing the number of committees. I think that one should get to a number and then ask, “Right, what is the best way for those people to make themselves work in an efficient way?”, and if that means getting rid of some committees, so be it.

The debate we have had brings me to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made on, I think, 4 June —maybe he will correct me—when he wrote this, which your Lordships can find on the Guardian blog:

“The old guard are already lining up to defend the status quo”.

That is clear from the debate that we have had. There is always something wrong with the amendment that is put forward. There must be other amendments and a different way of doing things. The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, said that we must find another mechanism. I have put forward a mechanism and it has not received any great support but there is not another mechanism. We are therefore going to be faced with this continual problem of an increase in the size of the House, and of the active House.

I will, again, be referring in due course to some leaders that have been written in the papers recently about how this House works. I have increasingly come to the conclusion that in their writings my noble friends Lord Steel and Lord Tyler are both right, for what is this House designed to do? We have not discussed that. We are talking about reforming a system that is creaking at the seams without looking ahead to ask, “What should a second Chamber do?”. It would not be this House of Lords but having got what a second Chamber should be doing, you then work out how it is composed. I see my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth nodding. It is very unusual that we agree on reform of the House of Lords but this is one of those rare moments that one cherishes.

We are, again, putting the cart before the horse. Clearly, age is a non-runner. I accept that but it has been extremely worth while because at least my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and I have put forward a proposal to be discussed. I hope that other noble Lords will put forward different proposals, because there is no doubt that something needs to be done.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My point is that the all-party committee of the House under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, has already come to a firm conclusion and published a report. By the clauses that we have just passed, we are saying to the Government, “Take this report up. Get on with it and let’s reduce the numbers”. That is the right way to do it.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I absolutely take my noble friend's point. As I said to him earlier, that is not going to work because the only way you are going to get retirement from this House is to have a financial inducement, and I do not think that that will ever be acceptable, particularly in the present financial circumstances. For a House comprising Peers who are not paid but merely receive expenses, to be paid to leave is not acceptable. It was not acceptable for the hereditary Peers and it is not acceptable for the life Peers.

[Lord Grenfell]

I have to challenge the noble Earl’s assertion that the number of committees is driven by the size of the House. This is not the case. I have some experience of this. The number of committees is driven by the fact that legislation is becoming increasingly complex, particularly the scrutiny of European legislation, and, unfortunately, by the quality of the form in which legislation comes from the other place often being very poor. Your Lordships have a duty to scrutinise properly. It is not quite right to say that we create committees to make jobs for the boys and girls. We do it because there is a genuine need for better scrutiny.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I certainly bow to the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, who has much greater experience of this than I have. There is no doubt that, as a result of the reforms in another place, there is less scrutiny there than there used to be and we have to do more. However, there are other committees that have grown since I was first here. It is a bit of both. The noble Lord is absolutely right that the complexity of legislation, particularly European legislation as it has come in, has needed committees. However, my figure of 300 is merely taken from the Government’s proposals. We will come back to that but we must get on.

[Lord Northbrook]

May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel, a question? As far as I am aware, only two Members have taken advantage of the proposal of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. Initially it does not seem to have been that effective.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I can answer that. In fact, what has been done internally in the House is not at all what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, recommended. He recommended a statutory provision and a payment. The answer to the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, is that the Hunt committee said that this should be done without adding to the budget of the House of Lords, so that it would save public expenditure. The committee argued it very carefully. What has been implemented in the mean time is simply voluntary resignation, of which only two Members have taken advantage. The recommendation of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has not been implemented and it ought to be implemented, or at least considered now in some depth.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I agree with that but I just do not think that it will work. I cannot see a rush of Peers to take it up, so I am trying to get beyond that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 128 withdrawn.

Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

129: After Clause 14, insert the following new Clause—
“Right of retired Members to vote and stand for election to the House of Commons
A person who ceases to be a member of the House of Lords under section (Retirement age) shall not be disqualified from—
(a) voting at elections to the House of Commons, or(b) being, or being elected as, a Member of that House.”

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, this is a very simple amendment, which I hope my noble friend will be able to accept. It says:

“A person who ceases to be a member of the House of Lords under section (Retirement age) shall not be disqualified from … voting at elections to the House of Commons, or … being, or being elected as, a Member of that House”.

I beg to move.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I do not understand the amendment. It appears to be consequential on Amendment 128, which has just been withdrawn.

[The Earl of Caithness]

No, my Lords, it is not consequential on Amendment 128. I did not accept the groupings. I did not group Amendment 129 with Amendment 128 and I did not speak to it earlier. So I am moving it now and I am perfectly entitled to do so.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)]

My Lords, in one briefing the two amendments are grouped together and in another they are separate. Is it your Lordships’ pleasure that the amendment be agreed to?

[Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market]

The amendment says “under section” but there is no section. Therefore, it falls if Amendment 128 is not agreed to.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I apologise. I am absolutely certain that my noble friend Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market is right. This shows the slight confusion that we are in as a result of the earlier Motion. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 129 withdrawn.

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[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, anything for the convenience of the House but I have never before seen papers distributed. It occurred to me, frankly. Clearly, that can be done. As to the missing amendments, I will make my inquiries.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I do not have a copy of the revised groupings list. I am taking my amendments individually and not grouping them, but it shows how very tricky these proceedings have become. This is a very bad precedent for discussing a Private Member’s Bill regardless of what Bill we are discussing.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

130: Clause 15, page 6, line 14, leave out “one” and insert “five”

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, we now come to Part 4 of the Bill, which is headed:

“Conviction of serious criminal offence”.

I have stated before that I do not like this clause and I do not like it for two reasons. One argument advanced in favour of the clause is that the provision is the same as that which applies in another place. However, I do not think that we should necessarily follow the provisions of another place. We are a different House and we are composed differently. It is right that we should make different rules, if necessary.

I have previously mentioned my second reason for disliking the clause. When a person has served a sentence they should no longer be penalised for having committed the offence in question. When I was Minister for Prisons the principle was clear. The courts meted out sentences but, when they had been served, that was the end of it. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is not in his place but I hope that there are some lawyers present who will support my remarks. Therefore, in principle I have serious concerns about Part 4. I completely understand what my noble friend is trying to do but I consider that the provision goes against the principles of British justice.

The term “more than one year” in the Bill is too short a timescale and would catch too many trivial offences. Therefore, my Amendment 130 suggests a timescale of five years rather than one year. There is a certain benefit to be had from permitting Peers who have been convicted and sentenced to prison to come back to the House after they have served their sentence. Lord Kagan used to sit on the Labour Benches, having spent a little time at Her Majesty’s Pleasure. He came back and gave useful insights into that experience which assisted our consideration of criminal justice Bills. My amendment seeks to improve the Bill and explore the justification of my noble friend Lord Steel for the one-year period. I beg to move.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My answer to my noble friend Lord Caithness is very simple: I do not think that there is any magic in the one-year period. I am simply bringing this House into line with the other House. It has long been the practice in the elected House that anyone sentenced to a year’s imprisonment is automatically expelled. It seems to me that that should apply across Parliament as a whole. That is the only rationale for the measure. My noble friend has tabled two later starred amendments. I am minded to consider these very carefully because I think that he has a point there which we could carry forward to Report stage, if we get to it. However, we should resist Amendments 130 and 131 as they would make the provisions for this House different from those of the other place, and I do not see any case for that.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

Can my noble friend on the Front Bench give some examples of offences for which you would be penalised for more than a year? I am trying to get at what level of offence would be covered by the one-year cut off. What sort of things get you penalised for more than one year? Secondly, I pick up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. She said that noble Lords would be excluded for five years. That is not how I read the Bill. I would like my noble friend Lord Steel to clarify that. I thought that the noble Baroness said that if you have gone to prison, you cannot come back here for five years.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

If I said that, I was completely wrong. I did not mean to say that. If I said it, I certainly withdraw it.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. Either I misheard or there was a lack of communication. I know that my noble friend Lord Steel has a number of questions to answer.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

The principle behind Part 4 is simply that lawbreakers should not be lawmakers. That is the principle at the other end of the building, and it is one that I think we should sustain. I hope that I can persuade my noble friend not to press Amendment 130, because it would make this House different from the other one. My noble friend Lord Astor makes a strong liberal appeal for rehabilitation. If noble Lords would be kind enough not to move Amendments 131 to 133, I will certainly talk to both the Ministry of Justice and the authorities in the other place about those matters. I take the point just made by the noble Lord about sentences in other countries. We must take that into account. If we need to amend the Bill further at Report, I will be very willing to do so.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I delayed rising in the hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench had some answers. I do not know whether the fifth cavalry has moved speedily enough but in the hope that they are scribbling frantically behind me—

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

There may or may not be words of wisdom arriving. I remind the noble Earl that this is a Private Member’s Bill. The Government are here to be helpful from time to time but we do not have the answers as it is not our Bill.

While I am on my feet, I have further news. The Government Whips’ Office produced this splendid document showing that there are continued grouping of amendments, going up to Amendment 20 on the second page. It is an ambitious document, with 31 groupings yet to come. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, was concerned about his Amendment 68. That one comes after another 31 amendments, after the 31 groups on the sheet. He is also concerned about Amendment 75, which is five amendments after that—in other words, 67 amendments on. Ambition is splendid and it may be that moving with great speed another list has to be issued. We shall see.

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[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, nothing is different apart from not having a Government and an Opposition endeavouring to agree groupings. We are dealing with people who are promoting a Private Member’s Bill and others—we do not know who they are—who take a different view. We do not know who they are in composite; we know them as individuals. Therefore, the Government Whips’ Office is trying to be helpful in doing these groupings. The noble Lord is correct that amendments can be degrouped, as we have seen today. This document is simply an attempt to help all noble Lords with the business before us.

Now I am on my feet I will say that I have been given a piece of paper which suggests that under existing sentencing powers, magistrates' courts can, for a single offence, imprison for a maximum of six months. A wide variety of offences can be punished by more than 12 months’ imprisonment. That is my information and I hope that it might help the noble Lord.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend on the Front Bench; that is certainly helpful to me. I say to my noble friend Lord Steel that I do not see why we have to be the same as another place if we are playing a slightly different role. I certainly agree that we are legislators. However, given our present make-up of being appointed, which I fear is likely to continue for some time, I do not see why we have to be identical on this.

I take the point—which I meant to make when I moved the amendment—that the clause could affect people's human rights. It was made by the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and by my noble friend Lord Swinfen, and we should discuss it. In order to be helpful to my noble friend Lord Steel, and given what he said, I shall not move Amendments 132 and 133. This should speed up the process. However, I point out that Amendment 133 is a pre-sequential amendment that refers to the Appointments Commission that he wants to get rid of—so we will have fun on that when we come to it. He offered me a lovely olive branch by saying, “Yes, I rather like your amendment, we can discuss it”. However, he will take away the whole point of the amendment later in the proceedings. If he will discuss with me whether it should be one year or more —perhaps two, three, four or five—and we can talk about the clause, I will not move my Amendments 132 and 133. I see him nod and I will take that as a yes. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 130 withdrawn.

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[Lord Higgins]

On the suggestion that the amendment is withdrawn, my noble friend Lord Steel has made a very clear offer. The amendment does require further consideration, not least because Members who are not present today may well have a view. We can certainly come back to this on Report or at Third Reading.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, this amendment has been on the Order Paper for some considerable time. As regards the argument that some people not here might have a view, I would say “tough”. Let us make a decision now.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

Perhaps we could reach a compromise the other way around. I am quite happy to accept the amendment on the understanding that we will have further discussions. If it is found to be objectionable, for some reason which we do not understand now, we could come back to it on Report and take it out again. At the moment, let us keep it in. On that basis, I am happy to accept the amendment.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

138: Before Clause 18, insert the following new Clause—
“Referendum
(1) Her Majesty must by Order in Council, on the advice of the Prime Minister, cause a referendum to be held throughout the United Kingdom about whether the House of Lords should be reformed in accordance with the provisions of this Bill before any part or whole of the Bill comes into effect.
(2) For further provision about a referendum held by virtue of subsection (1), Schedule (Referendums under this Act) applies.
(3) An Order in Council under this section may not be made unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing the Order has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I apologise in advance as I may be a little longer on this amendment than I have been on others. That is because the amendment refers to referendums. I believe that a change in the constitution, such as this Bill proposes, should be the subject of a referendum. We are getting more and more used to referendums as part of our political landscape. The Local Government Act 2000 provided for the holding of referendums to enable electors of individual local authorities to express their preferences for the type of executive arrangements within their council. The 2001 Regional Assemblies (Preparation) Bill also allowed for the holding of referendums.

The House is currently considering the Localism Bill, which has a huge number of Liberal Democrat amendments—I can see my noble friend Lord Steel nodding, whether in sadness or pleasure I am not certain. Under Schedule 6 to the two tomes of that Bill one sees a huge amount about “Council tax referendums: further amendments”. A referendum was also agreed in Section 6—headed, “Decisions requiring approval by Act and by referendum”—of the European Union Act 2011, which my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford took through. Earlier this year there was also, of course, the referendum on the alternative vote system, with the quite remarkable and wonderful result that it was not agreed. We are getting increasingly used to referendums.

This is a constitutional Bill of some importance. The most important bit is the one we have agreed which will break the 1999 agreement on the succession of hereditary Peers until a further reform of the House of Lords takes place. If this Bill is important enough to break that agreement then it is important enough to prompt a referendum.

Amendment 138 states:

“Her Majesty must by Order in Council, on the advice of the Prime Minister, cause a referendum to be held”.

We then move on to the schedule and the consequential amendments. The schedule comes after Clause 19 and sets out the details of the referendum. I have to admit that I have copied this from the referendum amendment put forward for the Scotland Bill, which is also before your Lordships’ House. But I have proposed amendments to my amendment to take into account the fact that we would have a Joint Committee. We have not yet discussed the Joint Committee. The purpose of bringing it in—which I had hoped we would discuss earlier today—is that the Government proposing doing so in their draft reform Bill, which is in front of the Joint Committee of both Houses. We are caught up in a mess as a result of the rearrangement this morning because the amendments to my amendment concern something that we have not yet discussed. In view of what my noble friend Lord Shutt said, perhaps it would be wise for me not to move the amendments to my amendment until we have discussed the Joint Committee. However, I think that this is a cack-handed way of trying to discuss legislation. It is impossible to do it rationally.

I shall take noble Lords quickly through the schedule. There is, of course, the “Entitlement to vote”, which I hope does not cause any problems. We then deal with the conduct of the referendum and the “Referendum question and statement”. That is an important part of the schedule because the Order in Council,

“must specify the question to be included”.

We then come to the date of the referendum, and following that the “Referendum period”, which must be determined by the Order in Council. We then have “Combination of polls”, the encouragement of voting and the “Provision of information to voters”. It is important that one provides the correct information. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Steel probably knows more about referendums than I do, but my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth is probably the man to check that I have all of this right and to his satisfaction. The schedule goes on to deal with “Referendum material” and “Funding and accounts”. It deals with legal challenges to the referendum because they could well take place, followed by the “Supplementary” and “Interpretation” provisions. That in brief is the schedule before us. The principle of this is that there should be a referendum when it comes to constitutional reform. I beg to move.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, while I sympathise with my noble friend, I have to say that if I thought that the Bill brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, was as groundbreaking as my noble friend Lord Caithness points out, perhaps we could consider a referendum. But I have to say to my noble friend that I do not think that that is the case, and I really do not think that it justifies a referendum.

The more interesting issue here is that we do not know whether the committee looking into reform of the House of Lords is going to be able to keep to its timetable, or indeed whether the Government will produce a Bill for the reform of the House of Lords in this Parliament. It may be that they will wait until the next Parliament under whatever Government they are—I assume it will be a Conservative Government—and it is quite likely, if that is the case, that both major parties and indeed the Lib Dems will set out in their manifestos that they favour a wholly or largely elected second Chamber. If all three parties have that in their manifestos, there really is no chance for the country to have a view on it, because there will be no basis on which to have an alternative view on whether this House should be elected or appointed. It is not as if one can choose to say of one party, “I’ll vote for that because they put it forward”. In that case a referendum might be very worthwhile in deciding whether this nation really wants an elected second Chamber, with all the effect that that will have on another place and the way we manage the constitution of this country.

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[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I merely note in respect of manifestos at the last election that the three main party manifestos said different things about the House of Lords. They were not all in agreement. My main point is in response to my noble friend Lord Caithness’s argument that this is a major constitutional change so should be subject to a referendum. If the Bill constitutes major constitutional change which should be subject to a referendum then we are perfectly entitled to regard it as stage 2 of Lords reform and his objection to getting rid of the by-election option completely falls.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the point I made was that it was because of getting rid of that. If the noble Lord takes out the removal of the hereditary Peers, then it is not stage 2 of Lords reform. The removal of the hereditary Peers, which breaks a crucial agreement, means that it becomes a major reform. It would be implementing the terms of the 1999 agreement. I have absolutely no doubt that we will talk about this a lot more in the future.

My noble friend Lord Cormack was absolutely right to say that many of your Lordships are concerned by the idea of an elected House, and not least the noble Lord, Lord Steel. He has expressed some serious concerns about having an elected House. I do not fear that. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. It is interesting that once again the hereditary Peers are more reforming than most other noble Lords. That takes me back to the days of my noble friend Lord Carrington, who in 1968 got the agreement of the basically hereditary House to change the way that we operated. That was turned round in the House of Commons. Had that proposal been agreed, I would not have been here for 40 years, nor would my noble friends Lord Selsdon and Lord Trefgarne. I would have missed it by one year and I am the third longest-serving Member of the House speaking today.

Clearly, this amendment does not receive any support at all. That surprises me. If we are allowed a referendum on a decision under the provisions of Article 31(3) of the Treaty on European Union, which permits the adoption of qualified majority, we ought to have a referendum on constitutional change. However, I agree with all those who have said that there must be a referendum on the Government’s Bill. I think I said that when we discussed it in your Lordships’ House. I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 138 withdrawn.

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[Viscount Astor]

I did realise that, and I apologise to the noble Lord for not getting my amendment exactly right, but my purpose was to ask why Part 3 did not come into force straightaway. My noble friend has given me somewhat of an answer which clarifies the matter.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I remind my noble friend Lord Astor that it is up to the person who introduces the Bill to get the amendments correct. We are not legal draftsmen as mere Back-Benchers. With a government Bill, I often had to accept amendments that were technically incorrect or had subsequent consequential amendments. It was the will of the House that the principle was agreed to and then it was sorted out later. My noble friend Lord Astor should not be penalised for making that little mistake.

[Viscount Astor]

Well, I am grateful for support wherever I can get it. I am grateful, too, to my noble friend Lord Steel for his explanation, which I think I understand. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

142: After Clause 19, insert the following new Schedule—
“The House of Lords Appointments CommissionThe Commissioners1 (1) The Commission is to consist of seven members (“Commissioners”) appointed by Her Majesty.
(2) One of the Commissioners (“the chair”) is to be appointed by Her Majesty to chair the Commission.
(3) Her Majesty’s powers under sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) are exercisable on the recommendation of the Prime Minister.
(4) The Prime Minister is to select persons for recommendation on merit on the basis of fair and open competition.
(5) A Minister of the Crown may not be appointed as a Commissioner.
(6) If a Commissioner becomes a Minister of the Crown, that person ceases to be a Commissioner.
Terms and conditions: general2 (1) Subject to the provisions of this Schedule, the chair and the other Commissioners hold office in accordance with the terms and conditions of their appointment.
(2) Those terms and conditions are to be determined by the Joint Committee.
Terms of office3 (1) The chair and the other Commissioners are to be appointed for a fixed term of 10 years.
(2) A person who ceases to hold office as the chair also ceases to hold office as a Commissioner.
(3) A person may not be appointed as a Commissioner more than once.
Resignation4 (1) The chair may resign from office by notifying the Prime Minister of the resignation.
(2) The other Commissioners may resign from office by notifying the chair (or, if the office of chair is vacant, the Prime Minister) of the resignation.
Removal from office5 (1) Her Majesty may remove the chair from office on an address of both Houses of Parliament.
(2) Her Majesty may remove any of the other Commissioners from office on an address of both Houses of Parliament.
(3) A motion for an address under sub-paragraph (1) or (2) may be made (in either House) only if the Joint Committee has reported to the House that it is satisfied that one or more of the removal conditions is met.
(4) The removal conditions are that—
(a) the person is absent from 3 successive meetings of the Commission without the Commission’s approval,(b) the person is convicted of an offence,(c) a bankruptcy restrictions order or undertaking (but not an interim order) under a provision listed in sub-paragraph (6) comes into force in relation to the person,(d) a debt relief restrictions order or undertaking (but not an interim order) under Schedule 4ZB to the Insolvency Act 1986 comes into force in relation to the person, or(e) the person is unfit or unable to carry out the functions of the office.(5) For the purpose of determining if a person is convicted of an offence—
(a) it does not matter where the person is convicted, and(b) an act punishable under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom is an offence for the purposes of this paragraph (however it is described in that law). (6) The provisions referred to in sub-paragraph (4)(c) are—
(a) Schedule 4A to the Insolvency Act 1986;(b) section 56A or 56G of the Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 1985;(c) Schedule 2A to the Insolvency (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 (S.I. 1989/2405 (N.I. 19)).Remuneration6 (1) The terms and conditions on which a person is appointed as the chair or as one of the other Commissioners may provide for the Commission—
(a) to pay remuneration and allowances to the person;(b) to make provision for a pension in relation to that person.(2) The Commission must make the payment or provision accordingly.
Code of conduct7 (1) The Commission must prepare, and may from time to time revise, a code of conduct for the chair and the other Commissioners.
(2) The code must in particular—
(a) incorporate the Nolan principles or such other similar principles as may be adopted by the Commission from time to time, and(b) include provision about the disclosure of interests by the chair and the other Commissioners.(3) “The Nolan principles” means the seven general principles of public life set out in the First Report of the Committee on Standards in Public Life (Cm 2850).
(4) The Commission must submit the code (or revision) to the Joint Committee.
(5) The code does not come into effect until it is approved by the Joint Committee.
Powers8 The Commission may do anything (except borrow money) which is calculated to facilitate the carrying out of its functions or is incidental or conducive to the carrying out of those functions.
Committees etc9 (1) The Commission may establish committees, and committees of the Commission may establish sub-committees.
(2) All members of a committee or sub-committee must be Commissioners.
(3) A committee may delegate functions (including functions delegated to it) to a sub-committee or to one of the Commissioners.
Procedure and proceedings10 (1) The Commission may determine its own procedure and the procedure of its committees and sub-committees (including quorum).
(2) The validity of proceedings of the Commission or a committee or sub-committee is not affected by—
(a) a vacancy among the members, or(b) a defect in the appointment of a member.Staff11 (1) The Commission must appoint a chief executive.
(2) The Commission may appoint other staff.
(3) The chief executive and other staff are to be appointed on terms and conditions determined by the Commission, having regard to the desirability of keeping them broadly in line with those applying to persons employed in the civil service of the State.
Interim staff12 (1) The chair of the Joint Committee may appoint a person to act as chief executive until the first appointment under paragraph 11(1) takes effect.
(2) A person acting under sub-paragraph (1) may incur expenditure and do other things (including appointing persons to the Commission’s staff) in the name and on behalf of the Commission—
(a) before the membership of the Commission is first constituted in accordance with paragraph 1, and(b) after that, until the Commission determines otherwise.(3) A person’s powers under sub-paragraph (2) are exercisable subject to any directions given to the person by the chair of the Joint Committee.
(4) The chair of the Joint Committee may appoint other persons to the Commission’s staff.
(5) The chair of the Joint Committee may not exercise the power in sub-paragraph (4) after the membership of the Commission is first constituted in accordance with paragraph 1.
Staff pensions13 (1) Employment by the Commission is included among the kinds of employment to which a scheme under section 1 of the Superannuation Act 1972 may apply.
(2) The Commission must pay to the Minister for the Civil Service the sums determined by the Minister in respect of any increase attributable to this paragraph in the sums payable out of money provided by Parliament under that Act.
(3) In Schedule 1 to the Superannuation Act 1972 (kinds of employment to which a scheme under section 1 of the Act may apply), at the end of the list of “Royal Commissions and other Commissions” insert—
“House of Lords Appointments Commission.”
Delegation to staff14 (1) The Commission may delegate functions to any of the Commission’s staff, other than the functions listed in paragraph 9(5).
(2) A committee or sub-committee may delegate functions (including functions delegated to it) to any of the Commission’s staff.
(3) A Commissioner may delegate functions (including functions delegated to the Commissioner) to any of the Commission’s staff.
(4) The chief executive may delegate functions (including functions delegated to the chief executive) to any of the Commission’s staff.
Delegation and contracting out of superannuation functions15 (1) Section 1(2) of the Superannuation Act 1972 (delegation of functions relating to civil service superannuation schemes by Minister for the Civil Service to another officer of the Crown etc.) has effect as if the reference to an officer of Commission’s chief executive.
(2) Any administration function conferred on the chief executive under section 1(2) of that Act (in accordance with sub-paragraph (1)) may be carried out by, or by employees of, any person authorised by the chief executive.
(3) “Administration function” means a function of administering schemes made under section 1 of that Act, and from time to time in force.
(4) Under sub-paragraph (2), the chief executive may authorise a person to carry out administration functions—
(a) to their full extent or to a specified extent;(b) in all cases or in specified cases;(c) unconditionally or subject to specified conditions.(5) An authorisation under sub-paragraph (2)—
(a) is to be treated for all purposes as given by virtue of an order under section 69 of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 (contracting out of functions of Ministers and office-holders);(b) may be revoked at any time by the Commission or the chief executive.Status16 (1) The Commission, its members and its staff are not to be regarded—
(a) as the servants or agents of the Crown, or(b) as enjoying any status, immunity or privilege of the Crown. (2) The Commission’s property is not to be regarded as property of, or property held on behalf of, the Crown.
Funding17 (1) The Commission’s expenditure is to be paid out of money provided by Parliament.
(2) For each financial year other than its first, the Commission must prepare an estimate of the Commission’s use of resources and submit it to the Joint Committee.
(3) The Joint Committee must review the estimate and decide whether it is satisfied that the estimate is consistent with the efficient and cost-effective discharge by the Commission of its functions.
(4) If not so satisfied, the Joint Committee must make such modifications to the estimate as it considers necessary for achieving that consistency.
(5) Before deciding whether it is satisfied or making modifications, the Joint Committee must consult the Treasury and have regard to any advice given.
(6) After the Joint Committee has reviewed the estimate and made any modifications, the person who chairs the Joint Committee must lay the estimate before the House of Commons.
(7) If the Joint Committee does not follow any advice given by the Treasury, or makes any modifications to the estimate, it must prepare a statement of it’s the statement before the House of Commons.
Accounts and accounting officer18 (1) The Commission must keep proper accounting records.
(2) The Commission must, for each financial year, prepare accounts in accordance with directions given to it by the Treasury.
(3) The Treasury may in particular give the Commission directions as to—
(a) the information to be contained in the accounts and how it is to be presented,(b) the methods and principles in accordance with which the accounts are to be prepared, and(c) any additional information that is to accompany the accounts.(4) The Commission’s chief executive is to be its accounting officer.
Audit19 (1) As soon as reasonably practicable after the end of each financial year, the Commission must submit its accounts for that year to the Comptroller and Auditor General and to the Joint Committee.
(2) The Comptroller and Auditor General must—
(a) examine and certify the accounts submitted under this paragraph, and(b) lay before each House of Parliament a copy of the certificate and the accounts together with the report on them.Reports20 (1) As soon as reasonably practicable after the end of each financial year, the Commission must prepare a report about the performance of its functions during that year.
(2) The person who chairs the Joint Committee must lay the report before each House of Parliament.
(3) When the report has been laid before each House the Commission must publish it.
Documentary evidence21 (1) A document purporting to be duly executed under the seal of the Commission or signed on its behalf—
(a) is to be received in evidence, and(b) unless the contrary is proved, is to be taken to be executed or signed in that way.(2) This paragraph does not extend to Scotland.
Disqualification 22 (1) In Part 2 of Schedule 1 to the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 (bodies of which all members are disqualified), at the appropriate place insert— “The House of Lords Appointments Commission.”
(2) In Part 2 of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 (bodies of which all members are disqualified), at the appropriate place insert—
“The House of Lords Appointments Commission.”
Freedom of information23 In Part 6 of Schedule 1 to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (other public bodies and offices which are public authorities), the entry for “The House of Lords Appointments Commission” is to be treated as a reference to the Commission.
Public records24 In Schedule 1 to the Public Records Act 1958 (definition of public records) at the appropriate place in Part 2 of the Table at the end of paragraph 3 insert—
“The House of Lords Appointments Commission.”
Interpretation25 In this Schedule “financial year” means—
(a) the period beginning with the day on which the Commission is established and ending with the next following 31 March, and (b) each successive period of 12 months.”

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I shall move Amendment 142 very quickly because I need to apologise to the House. When I introduced Amendment 138 in regard to the referendum, I said that there were consequential amendments to it which we had not discussed. I am afraid I was technically wrong because the point I made on that amendment actually refers to this amendment. Your Lordships will see that there are amendments to my amendment for a statutory appointments commission and Amendment 142 is a schedule to something that we have not already discussed. I do not intend to speak any more to this amendment. I wanted to get on the record what I had to say and, in order to do so, I had to move the amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, we have had a very good humoured debate throughout the day. It began perhaps a little fractiously in the morning but—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel)]

Before the noble Lord responds, I have to call Amendment 143 as an amendment to Amendment 142.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, in order to allow the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to speak, I am not going to move Amendments 143 to Amendments 161 inclusive because they are amendments to Amendment 142 which I am going to withdraw for the reasons I have said. I had to move it to get on the record my apology to the House.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, we have done very useful work today—

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Is Amendment 142 not moved?

[The Earl of Caithness]

No, my Lords, with respect to the Chairman, we are debating Amendment 142 at the moment and the noble Lord, Lord Steel, is on his feet. I have yet to speak on it again.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I simply want to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes. If I heard him correctly, he was asking me for an undertaking that if and when we get to Report I will not bring forward any major changes to the Bill. Was that what he was asking for?

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[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, perhaps I may again suggest what I suggested previously. The easiest way to do this is that when the noble Lord has spoken to and withdrawn Amendment 142, the subsequent amendments on the Order Paper—other than Amendment 163—should not be moved. We will then vote on Clauses 1, 2 and 3 and then on Amendment 163. We will then proceed quickly.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, is very beguiling and put the onus firmly on my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me. That was a little unfair but that is all in the game of politics, and I accept it. He will know that there are also other amendments. The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, my noble friend Lord Astor and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, who is not in his place, have tabled amendments. It is therefore not up to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me to decide that we can suddenly say, “I give way to the noble Lord, Lord Steel”. I repeat that the noble Lord should have discussed his proposal with me previously because I have done a huge amount of work on the first part of the Bill up to Clause 10. I spent many hours preparing these amendments and it is an absolute abuse of any Member of your Lordships' House to be treated in such a way. It is quite wrong.

I have amendments on not just the appointments commission but I have an amendment to create a Joint Committee on a House of Lords appointments commission. Such a proposal is in the Government’s draft Bill and is highly relevant. I want a statutory appointments commission and I am now being denied a chance to debate it—or I am being pressurised by my noble friend Lord Steel not to debate it. However, it is hugely important that we have a statutory commission. As I said right at the beginning, it was my noble friend Lord Steel who wanted a statutory appointments commission. It was he who moved an amendment to the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, regretting that there was not to be a statutory appointments commission. Now it does not suit my noble friend to have an appointments commission in the Bill because he is so keen to get the rest of it through.

My noble friend had another opportunity; he could quite legitimately have withdrawn the Bill and introduced another Bill with no provision for a statutory appointments commission. That would have been the right and proper thing to do. The fact is that he quite deliberately did not do that. He deliberately moved a Motion that has made it extremely difficult for us to have a sensible discussion on a lot of the amendments. I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, my noble friend Lord Astor or the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, think about their amendments. Having done all the work, I should actually like to get on and discuss my amendments. However, I understand that I am in a minority.

Nevertheless, there is an important principle here. Just because one is in a minority in this House does not mean that one does not have the right to move amendments, and one should not be unduly pressurised—which my noble friend is doing to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me—not to move amendments on which we have spent an awful lot of time.

Had it been the other way round at the beginning, and the statutory appointments commission had been right at the end, the noble Lord would have had a more valid case. He could have said: “We have got so far, but we are going to hit the magic hour of three o'clock. Don't let's discuss any more”. That would be much more logical. I cannot decide alone. For a start, Amendment 1 is important. It contains a purpose clause. It is indeed the clause that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, introduced himself the last time that we discussed this. If he wanted it then, surely he wants it now. These are not matters that can be dismissed lightly. Without the approval of other noble Lords, I cannot make a decision for them. We shall see how we proceed, but I beg to withdraw Amendment 142.

Amendment 142 withdrawn.

Tabled by

[The Earl of Caithness]

162: After Clause 19, insert the following new Schedule—
“SCHEDULEThe Joint Committee on the House of Lords Appointments CommissionMembers1 (1) The Joint Committee is to consist of the following—
(a) a Minister of the Crown with responsibilities in relation to constitutional matters who is a member of the House of Commons;(b) four members of the House of Lords who are not Ministers of the Crown;(c) four members of the House of Commons who are not Ministers of the Crown;(d) the person who chairs the relevant committee of the House of Lords;(e) the person who chairs the relevant committee of the House of Commons.(2) Members of the Joint Committee are to be appointed—
(a) for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(a) by the Prime Minister,(b) for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) by the House of Lords, and(c) for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(c) by the House of Commons.(3) The Joint Committee is to select one of its members to chair it.
(4) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(d) and (e), the relevant committee of the House of Lords or the House of Commons is the committee of that House concerned with constitutional matters, so far as relating to membership of the House of Lords.
(5) Any question arising under sub-paragraph (4) is to be determined by the Speaker of the House in question.
Terms of office of members2 (1) In this paragraph “appointed member of the Joint Committee” means a member appointed under paragraph 1(2).
(2) Except as provided by this paragraph, an appointed member of the Joint Committee is a member of the Joint Committee for the remainder of the Parliament in which the person is appointed.
(3) If an appointed member of the Joint Committee who is a member of the House of Lords ceases to be a member of that House, that person ceases to be member of the Joint Committee.
(4) If an appointed member of the Joint Committee who is a member of the House of Commons ceases to be a member of that House, that person ceases to be a member of the Joint Committee.
(5) If an appointed member of the Joint Committee within paragraph 1(1)(b) or (c) becomes a Minister of the Crown, that person ceases to be a member of the Joint Committee.
(6) An appointed member of the Joint Committee ceases to be a member of the Joint Committee if another person is appointed in that person’s place.
(7) An appointed member of the Joint Committee may resign from the Joint Committee by notifying the Committee of the resignation.
(8) An appointed member of the Joint Committee may be reappointed (more than once).
Procedure3 (1) The Joint Committee may establish sub-committees.
(2) The validity of proceedings of the Joint Committee or a sub-committee is not affected by—
(a) a vacancy among its members, or(b) a defect in the appointment of a member.”

[The Earl of Caithness]

I would be quite happy to move the amendment; that would take us through to 3.30 pm. It is a schedule to something to which I have not yet been permitted to speak. It concerns the Joint Committee; it is very important, but I will not move it.

Amendment 162 not moved.

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[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Can we hear the advice of the Government Chief Whip and proceed accordingly?

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am slightly confused. I do not know whether the Deputy Chairman of Committees has called Amendment 1. He certainly did not call any Peer to speak to Amendment 1, so I do not know whether we are in limbo land or debating an amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel)]

I was obliged to call Amendment 1 but it was obvious that the Government Chief Whip wanted to say something, so I called it and then invited him to speak. If it is the wish of the Committee I shall call Amendment 1and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness.

Amendment 1

Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
“Part A1Purpose of the ActProvisions contained within the Act
The four purposes of this Act are—
(a) to establish a statutory Appointments Commission,(b) to end entry into the House of Lords of hereditary peers by-election,(c) to enable peers to retire, and(d) to enable the House to exclude members from the House

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I think that we are now where we should be. I will not speak for all the other Members of your Lordships’ House who are interested in this but there is no doubt that we want to discuss the Standing Committee. I also want to discuss the Joint Committee on the Standing Committee because that brings forward the Government’s draft Bill to an earlier stage. I should have thought that that would be welcome, but we will need to discuss that. Provided that we can discuss all the amendments as scheduled and Amendment 163 to the Long Title is not moved by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for my part I am happy to withdraw Amendment 1. I will do so on the very clear understanding that all the amendments—Amendments 1 to 117 inclusive—will be discussed on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

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[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, it will be considered in an orderly manner on Report and we will have the benefit of having concluded the Committee stage. That is the crucial point before the House. Then we will have proceeded in an orderly, tidy and satisfactory manner. We will have silenced no one, anticipated no one and pre-empted no one, and we will have reflected credit on the House rather than otherwise. I hope that, as his noble friend Lord Caithness has taken the line that he has over Report stage, my noble friend will feel moved to do likewise.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I have suddenly realised that the difficulty with that is that if we go to Report stage, one can speak only once, whereas in Committee one can come back and ask questions for elucidation. That was done today in the happy progress that we made. Will my noble friend Lord Steel recommit to Committee Parts 1 to 9 of the Bill?

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

No.

[The Earl of Caithness]

Now I understand exactly what noble Lords are after, and I do not like it: it gets worse and worse. We should recommit to Committee the parts that we have not discussed. There are bound to be questions and times when one wishes to speak a second time, and it would be unfair if one were deprived of that. I leave it to other noble Lords such as the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, and the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, to say what they think. But I think that that way is devious. It is not in the spirit of what we are trying to do to help the noble Lord, Lord Steel, with the part of the Bill that we have agreed so far.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, Hansard will show that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, addressed a point only 10 minutes ago that was quite clear. A proposal was made in good faith and we all thought that he had responded in good faith and said that as long as this can be discussed on Report, he would not have any further worry about the procedure that, in effect, the Government Chief Whip proposed that will enable the House, overwhelmingly and after a considerable amount of give and take, to achieve a clearer position by 3 pm. It is incumbent on the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, to say that that is what he indicated 10 minutes ago, because Hansard will reveal that.

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[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the procedure we are currently following is indeed filibustering by another name. We are bringing this House into disrepute. We have an excellent Bill before us. The majority will of this House is that we move on. I suggest that we should move on as expeditiously as possible.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I must respond to the noble Lord, Lord Lea. I say to the noble Baroness that I am not filibustering. I have done everything I can to be helpful today. I have said what I have said. My intervention just now was because I had not fully grasped the implications of going straight to Report. I was alerting the House. I will stick by what I said in that we will go to Report, but what I said was prompted by what my noble friend Lord Cormack said which made me realise that, of course, the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Steel, wants that is because we can speak only once on Report. I think that is unfair. However, having given the assurance I gave, I will stick by it, but I reinforce the point that it is a huge abuse of this House on a Private Member's Bill.

[Lady Saltoun of Abernethy]

My Lords, why can we not have another Committee day and finish the Committee that way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

In that case, the amendment is still in play and I would like to speak to it in the dying minutes of this day. The position is this. A small minority of Members in the House have the capacity to nullify all the work that we have done today. They also have the right to do that; that is not in dispute. I make one final appeal to those noble Lords. I am willing to discuss with them which parts of the Bill they feel strongly about should come forward at Report stage. We can then move to Report stage. It is not in my gift to command a second Committee day. We know that this Session ends next April. We have done good work today. I do not want to see it viciated, and I hope in that spirit that the minority of Members in the House who feel strongly about this will agree to discussions, and allow this Bill to complete its Committee stage and go to Report.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I would add merely that it was quite wrong for that Division to be called when every effort was being made to get a sensible solution.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I completely concur with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, and I look to the government Benches and Government Chief Whip to inform us of what happens next.