House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, I apologise for my remarks. I know that there is one such Parliament; I should not have mentioned a name. No offence was intended.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I will briefly raise a few points. I am very proud to be a Privy Counsellor. However, Clause 10 is not about the abolition of hereditary Peers today, tomorrow or whenever the Bill may be accepted. We are talking about a very gradual diminution in the number of hereditary Peers. Therefore, as a Privy Counsellor, I do not feel that I have any conflict of interest in voting for Clause 10.

[Lord Trefgarne]

Perhaps I could suggest to the noble Baroness that the by-elections were part of the deal agreed between my noble friend—now the Marquess of Salisbury—and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg. Her Government, of whom she was then a distinguished member, signed up to the deal.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I was a very proud member of my Government, but I was not a member of the Government at that time. As to hereditary Peers, I accept what the noble Lord says, but I believe that we are part of an evolutionary process. Today is the anniversary of the introduction of the first four life Peers in 1958. Since that time, the House has evolved, and our debate today is part of that evolution. I see absolutely no conflict between discussion of these issues today and discussion of the Bill before the Joint Committee.

Like my noble friend Lord Howarth, I recognise the grievances expressed by hereditary Peers in the Chamber. Like other noble Lords, I have huge respect and affection for the work of those noble Lords. However, while I respect and very much like the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, I have to disagree with her. When people think about this Chamber and its composition, they do not understand why we still have hereditary Peers. I understand about the agreement, and I understand what is happening. I must say to the noble Lady that yesterday I had the privilege of speaking with 20 Chevening scholars from India, the brightest and the best of the Indian subcontinent, and when we talked about the composition of this House, they simply did not understand why we still have hereditary Peers. When we have things such as the Arab spring and we are nurturing the new democracies in the Middle East, to still retain the election of hereditary Peers does not seem logical or proper. For that reason, I certainly wish to support the retention of Clause 10, which I believe to be an important, indeed, essential part of the Bill.

[The Earl of Erroll]

As a hereditary Peer, I do not have a grievance about anything and if I have to go, I have to go, but my purpose here is to ensure further democratic reform. That is why I was put here. This is not democratic reform. Until that comes, I should stay.

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[Viscount Astor]

You could be tagged, as my noble friend said. I understood that one of the important principles of the Liberal Democrats was rehabilitation—bringing people back into society after they have served their sentence, paid their price and done their time. Those of your Lordships who have suffered the indignity of prison will come out and find it quite difficult to get regular employment. After all, who is a more difficult person to employ than someone who has been in prison? It would be difficult to employ a Peer who had been in prison. I should have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who is a humane person, would want such people to come back and contribute to society. The difference for the House of Commons is that you have to be re-elected, but if you go to prison you do not lose your title—you are stuck with it, I am afraid. Such noble Lords should be given a chance.

My noble friend Lord Caithness referred to Lord Kagan. I try to avoid the trap of politicians falling into the pointless anecdote, but perhaps I will mention one concerning Lord Kagan. When he reappeared in your Lordships' House, he came to the tea room and sat down. We all looked slightly embarrassed and wondered what to say. The late Lord Marsh turned to him and said, “I hope that your time in prison was not too bad”, to which Lord Kagan said, “I’ve only been in prison twice. The first was a concentration camp during the war and the second was here. I have to tell you that British prisons are much nicer places”. After that, we were all silent for quite a long time.

The purpose of my probing amendment is to ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel, whether noble Lords who serve in this House, but due to some unfortunate circumstances have been a guest of Her Majesty, can contribute. Will the noble Lord consider that such noble Lords might, in some circumstances, be able to come back and rehabilitate themselves into what must be a welcoming place to come back to?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, these are interesting amendments. Although I realise that this is a Private Member’s Bill, I know that the government Benches believe in giving people a second change. That is commendable in many ways and I certainly believe in the rehabilitation of offenders. I also recognise that although we are one Parliament we are two Houses, each of which has rules and regulations. However, in this instance, it is absolutely right that we bring our own procedures into line with the House of Commons. While I believe in the rehabilitation of offenders, we must bear in mind that we are legislators and make laws. When one has broken a law to such an extent that one receives a prison sentence, it is right and proper that for a period of five years one should no longer have the privilege of making laws.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, perhaps I may help us to make progress by simply adding that I very much agree with the noble Baroness who has just spoken. The Government’s draft House of Lords Bill contains a very similar provision to the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, because it mirrors the provisions for MPs, which are set out in Section 1 of the Representation of the People Act 1981. It is appropriate that the terms and conditions for both Houses should be the same.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

Can my noble friend on the Front Bench give some examples of offences for which you would be penalised for more than a year? I am trying to get at what level of offence would be covered by the one-year cut off. What sort of things get you penalised for more than one year? Secondly, I pick up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. She said that noble Lords would be excluded for five years. That is not how I read the Bill. I would like my noble friend Lord Steel to clarify that. I thought that the noble Baroness said that if you have gone to prison, you cannot come back here for five years.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

If I said that, I was completely wrong. I did not mean to say that. If I said it, I certainly withdraw it.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. Either I misheard or there was a lack of communication. I know that my noble friend Lord Steel has a number of questions to answer.

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[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, I think it is also the fact that Members of the House of Commons are no longer Members of the House of Commons when the election takes place.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I fully support my noble friend in his amendment, which is excellent. However, I look forward to hearing the response from the noble Lord, Lord Steel, because, while this is of the utmost importance, I would not wish it to impede the passage of the Bill in any way. As I said, however, I am fully behind my noble friend’s amendment.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, to be honest, I was completely agnostic about this amendment. My initial reaction was that it was another matter outside the scope and intent of my Bill. However, no one has spoken against it, and I think the noble Lord, Lord Lea, is correct that the origin of this practice was that Members of the House of Commons could vote in their Chamber and that we had a voice and a position here. The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, is right that the powers of this House have been diminished over the years, which no longer stands up to scrutiny.

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[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I do not want to truncate the debate, but I want to reply to the mover of the amendment. I am wholly opposed to Amendments 138 and 141 for the simple reason that the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, has enumerated. Earlier someone said that this Bill should not be called the House of Lords Reform Bill, but the “House of Lords Improvement Bill”. I could even rename it the “House of Lords Housekeeping Bill”. What we are dealing with are three housekeeping matters internal to the House: the question of the election of hereditary Peers, the question of retirement and the question of removing those who commit serious offences. These are matters within the operation of the House and are not at all suitable for a referendum. So I am totally opposed to these provisions.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, that this is not a ground-breaking constitutional Bill. It is, indeed, a housekeeping Bill. But I am delighted that the noble Viscount agrees with the policy of my party, which is that there should be a referendum on any Bill that comes out of the Joint Committee, which will certainly be a profound constitutional change. In that case, I am certainly in favour of a referendum; in relation to the current Bill, I am opposed.

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[Viscount Astor]

I am very grateful. I now understand the point that my noble friend was making and I am grateful to him.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I understand that the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as to whether we have had a good day today are subjective, as the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, indicated. I have to say that we wonder every day whether we have had a good day in this Chamber. It really rather depends which side of the Chamber one is sitting on. Today, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel, that we have had a good day. The housekeeping matters that we have discussed and agreed upon are extremely important for the working of this House—important for our internal workings, but also in reputational terms for this House. I hope that we can expedite proceedings today to ensure that the next time we consider this Bill, it will be on Report so that we can then take it forward and ensure that it is enacted at the earliest opportunity.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, it is true, as has just been said by the Chairman, that Amendment 163 is in the wrong place; it should come right at the end. However, I think I am also right in saying, although it does not say this on the notice of today’s business, that this is a provisional grouping and that it is open to anyone to move the amendment where it actually falls in the Bill. In which case, one can perhaps then take Amendment 163 at the end but, in order to get to that, one would need to deal with the matters which are ahead of it.

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[Lord Northbrook]

The reason why the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, changed his thoughts is that I think the goal posts seem to have moved. I do not understand why we are not going to recommit Clauses 1 to 9.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the procedure we are currently following is indeed filibustering by another name. We are bringing this House into disrepute. We have an excellent Bill before us. The majority will of this House is that we move on. I suggest that we should move on as expeditiously as possible.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I must respond to the noble Lord, Lord Lea. I say to the noble Baroness that I am not filibustering. I have done everything I can to be helpful today. I have said what I have said. My intervention just now was because I had not fully grasped the implications of going straight to Report. I was alerting the House. I will stick by what I said in that we will go to Report, but what I said was prompted by what my noble friend Lord Cormack said which made me realise that, of course, the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Steel, wants that is because we can speak only once on Report. I think that is unfair. However, having given the assurance I gave, I will stick by it, but I reinforce the point that it is a huge abuse of this House on a Private Member's Bill.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

I would add merely that it was quite wrong for that Division to be called when every effort was being made to get a sensible solution.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I completely concur with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, and I look to the government Benches and Government Chief Whip to inform us of what happens next.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, there are five minutes left. If every amendment is called, it can be dealt with. That would take a bit of time, but that would be it. If that does not happen, I will have to move that the House do resume.