House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, I apologise for my remarks. I know that there is one such Parliament; I should not have mentioned a name. No offence was intended.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I will briefly raise a few points. I am very proud to be a Privy Counsellor. However, Clause 10 is not about the abolition of hereditary Peers today, tomorrow or whenever the Bill may be accepted. We are talking about a very gradual diminution in the number of hereditary Peers. Therefore, as a Privy Counsellor, I do not feel that I have any conflict of interest in voting for Clause 10.

[Lord Trefgarne]

Perhaps I could suggest to the noble Baroness that the by-elections were part of the deal agreed between my noble friend—now the Marquess of Salisbury—and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg. Her Government, of whom she was then a distinguished member, signed up to the deal.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I was a very proud member of my Government, but I was not a member of the Government at that time. As to hereditary Peers, I accept what the noble Lord says, but I believe that we are part of an evolutionary process. Today is the anniversary of the introduction of the first four life Peers in 1958. Since that time, the House has evolved, and our debate today is part of that evolution. I see absolutely no conflict between discussion of these issues today and discussion of the Bill before the Joint Committee.

Like my noble friend Lord Howarth, I recognise the grievances expressed by hereditary Peers in the Chamber. Like other noble Lords, I have huge respect and affection for the work of those noble Lords. However, while I respect and very much like the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, I have to disagree with her. When people think about this Chamber and its composition, they do not understand why we still have hereditary Peers. I understand about the agreement, and I understand what is happening. I must say to the noble Lady that yesterday I had the privilege of speaking with 20 Chevening scholars from India, the brightest and the best of the Indian subcontinent, and when we talked about the composition of this House, they simply did not understand why we still have hereditary Peers. When we have things such as the Arab spring and we are nurturing the new democracies in the Middle East, to still retain the election of hereditary Peers does not seem logical or proper. For that reason, I certainly wish to support the retention of Clause 10, which I believe to be an important, indeed, essential part of the Bill.

[The Earl of Erroll]

As a hereditary Peer, I do not have a grievance about anything and if I have to go, I have to go, but my purpose here is to ensure further democratic reform. That is why I was put here. This is not democratic reform. Until that comes, I should stay.

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[Viscount Astor]

You could be tagged, as my noble friend said. I understood that one of the important principles of the Liberal Democrats was rehabilitation—bringing people back into society after they have served their sentence, paid their price and done their time. Those of your Lordships who have suffered the indignity of prison will come out and find it quite difficult to get regular employment. After all, who is a more difficult person to employ than someone who has been in prison? It would be difficult to employ a Peer who had been in prison. I should have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who is a humane person, would want such people to come back and contribute to society. The difference for the House of Commons is that you have to be re-elected, but if you go to prison you do not lose your title—you are stuck with it, I am afraid. Such noble Lords should be given a chance.

My noble friend Lord Caithness referred to Lord Kagan. I try to avoid the trap of politicians falling into the pointless anecdote, but perhaps I will mention one concerning Lord Kagan. When he reappeared in your Lordships' House, he came to the tea room and sat down. We all looked slightly embarrassed and wondered what to say. The late Lord Marsh turned to him and said, “I hope that your time in prison was not too bad”, to which Lord Kagan said, “I’ve only been in prison twice. The first was a concentration camp during the war and the second was here. I have to tell you that British prisons are much nicer places”. After that, we were all silent for quite a long time.

The purpose of my probing amendment is to ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel, whether noble Lords who serve in this House, but due to some unfortunate circumstances have been a guest of Her Majesty, can contribute. Will the noble Lord consider that such noble Lords might, in some circumstances, be able to come back and rehabilitate themselves into what must be a welcoming place to come back to?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, these are interesting amendments. Although I realise that this is a Private Member’s Bill, I know that the government Benches believe in giving people a second change. That is commendable in many ways and I certainly believe in the rehabilitation of offenders. I also recognise that although we are one Parliament we are two Houses, each of which has rules and regulations. However, in this instance, it is absolutely right that we bring our own procedures into line with the House of Commons. While I believe in the rehabilitation of offenders, we must bear in mind that we are legislators and make laws. When one has broken a law to such an extent that one receives a prison sentence, it is right and proper that for a period of five years one should no longer have the privilege of making laws.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, perhaps I may help us to make progress by simply adding that I very much agree with the noble Baroness who has just spoken. The Government’s draft House of Lords Bill contains a very similar provision to the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, because it mirrors the provisions for MPs, which are set out in Section 1 of the Representation of the People Act 1981. It is appropriate that the terms and conditions for both Houses should be the same.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

Can my noble friend on the Front Bench give some examples of offences for which you would be penalised for more than a year? I am trying to get at what level of offence would be covered by the one-year cut off. What sort of things get you penalised for more than one year? Secondly, I pick up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. She said that noble Lords would be excluded for five years. That is not how I read the Bill. I would like my noble friend Lord Steel to clarify that. I thought that the noble Baroness said that if you have gone to prison, you cannot come back here for five years.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

If I said that, I was completely wrong. I did not mean to say that. If I said it, I certainly withdraw it.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. Either I misheard or there was a lack of communication. I know that my noble friend Lord Steel has a number of questions to answer.

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[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, I think it is also the fact that Members of the House of Commons are no longer Members of the House of Commons when the election takes place.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I fully support my noble friend in his amendment, which is excellent. However, I look forward to hearing the response from the noble Lord, Lord Steel, because, while this is of the utmost importance, I would not wish it to impede the passage of the Bill in any way. As I said, however, I am fully behind my noble friend’s amendment.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, to be honest, I was completely agnostic about this amendment. My initial reaction was that it was another matter outside the scope and intent of my Bill. However, no one has spoken against it, and I think the noble Lord, Lord Lea, is correct that the origin of this practice was that Members of the House of Commons could vote in their Chamber and that we had a voice and a position here. The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, is right that the powers of this House have been diminished over the years, which no longer stands up to scrutiny.

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[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I do not want to truncate the debate, but I want to reply to the mover of the amendment. I am wholly opposed to Amendments 138 and 141 for the simple reason that the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, has enumerated. Earlier someone said that this Bill should not be called the House of Lords Reform Bill, but the “House of Lords Improvement Bill”. I could even rename it the “House of Lords Housekeeping Bill”. What we are dealing with are three housekeeping matters internal to the House: the question of the election of hereditary Peers, the question of retirement and the question of removing those who commit serious offences. These are matters within the operation of the House and are not at all suitable for a referendum. So I am totally opposed to these provisions.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, that this is not a ground-breaking constitutional Bill. It is, indeed, a housekeeping Bill. But I am delighted that the noble Viscount agrees with the policy of my party, which is that there should be a referendum on any Bill that comes out of the Joint Committee, which will certainly be a profound constitutional change. In that case, I am certainly in favour of a referendum; in relation to the current Bill, I am opposed.

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[Viscount Astor]

I am very grateful. I now understand the point that my noble friend was making and I am grateful to him.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I understand that the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as to whether we have had a good day today are subjective, as the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, indicated. I have to say that we wonder every day whether we have had a good day in this Chamber. It really rather depends which side of the Chamber one is sitting on. Today, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel, that we have had a good day. The housekeeping matters that we have discussed and agreed upon are extremely important for the working of this House—important for our internal workings, but also in reputational terms for this House. I hope that we can expedite proceedings today to ensure that the next time we consider this Bill, it will be on Report so that we can then take it forward and ensure that it is enacted at the earliest opportunity.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, it is true, as has just been said by the Chairman, that Amendment 163 is in the wrong place; it should come right at the end. However, I think I am also right in saying, although it does not say this on the notice of today’s business, that this is a provisional grouping and that it is open to anyone to move the amendment where it actually falls in the Bill. In which case, one can perhaps then take Amendment 163 at the end but, in order to get to that, one would need to deal with the matters which are ahead of it.

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[Lord Northbrook]

The reason why the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, changed his thoughts is that I think the goal posts seem to have moved. I do not understand why we are not going to recommit Clauses 1 to 9.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the procedure we are currently following is indeed filibustering by another name. We are bringing this House into disrepute. We have an excellent Bill before us. The majority will of this House is that we move on. I suggest that we should move on as expeditiously as possible.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I must respond to the noble Lord, Lord Lea. I say to the noble Baroness that I am not filibustering. I have done everything I can to be helpful today. I have said what I have said. My intervention just now was because I had not fully grasped the implications of going straight to Report. I was alerting the House. I will stick by what I said in that we will go to Report, but what I said was prompted by what my noble friend Lord Cormack said which made me realise that, of course, the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Steel, wants that is because we can speak only once on Report. I think that is unfair. However, having given the assurance I gave, I will stick by it, but I reinforce the point that it is a huge abuse of this House on a Private Member's Bill.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

I would add merely that it was quite wrong for that Division to be called when every effort was being made to get a sensible solution.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I completely concur with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, and I look to the government Benches and Government Chief Whip to inform us of what happens next.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, there are five minutes left. If every amendment is called, it can be dealt with. That would take a bit of time, but that would be it. If that does not happen, I will have to move that the House do resume.

Localism Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, it is now 23:05. Everyone in this Chamber, including the staff of the House, will be here again at 10 o’clock in the morning. The agreement made with the usual channels was, as I understand it, that we would finish as close as possible to 10 pm. It is now 11.05 pm. My colleague, who has been on the Front Bench all day, wishes to depart. We have plenty of amendments to deal with tomorrow and I suggest that we deal with this manuscript amendment then.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I trust that the amendment can be dealt with tonight. I do not believe it will take very long. I understand that people are tired; I am tired too. Let us get on and get some business done.

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[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I know that my noble friend is trying to help everyone. I think that he has managed to confuse us even more, which was not his intention. I know that all noble Lords want to have a debate on his amendment. It is clear that, even if the amendment were not down, it would be possible to speak to it at Clause 124 stand part. I suggest that we should do that tomorrow, but on the understanding that tomorrow is when we complete Committee stage, which I know will bring a sigh of relief to all those who have worked hard on this Bill so far.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the Chief Whip for that accommodation. I apologise unreservedly for misleading the House. My noble friend Lady Crawley informs me that usual channels agreed to finish at around 23:00, not 22:00. I beg your Lordships’ pardon. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. It is best that his amendment be debated tomorrow, as the noble Baroness said.

We will strive to finish this stage of the Bill tomorrow, but I cannot give an absolute commitment. I think that we should finish in good time and we will do our utmost to do so.

[Lord Greaves]

I shall just let the amendment be. Thank you.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I make it quite clear; I am the Whip and there are two Ministers in the House of Commons. Noble Lords will remember that we had the general election, following which the number of Members of Parliament in each party was rather different. Under the coalition agreement, the number of Liberal Democrat Members who became Ministers was rather smaller than the number of Conservative Members who became Ministers. My noble friend’s right honourable friend and mine, Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, paid a three-day visit to Northern Ireland in October, and I also had a three-day visit. Even though I am not a Minister, I endeavour to influence events and I hope to have a degree of success in that. Alongside my noble friend as the Liberal Democrat Back-Bench co-chair for the policy committee on Northern Ireland, Mr Stephen Lloyd, MP for Eastbourne, has recently been appointed to serve as the House of Commons co-chair.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I remind the Minister, with respect, that he speaks on behalf of the Government as a whole. The Government have pledged to bring in a British Bill of Rights. I wonder what that means for Northern Ireland and whether the Government are going to pursue a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights and a separate Bill of Rights for the United Kingdom. I should be grateful for the views of the noble Lord the Minister.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I shall endeavour to speak for the Government. I was just giving the facts as to who is the Minister and who is the Whip. I hold the latter position, and I think noble Lords will find that that situation existed when we had a different Government. The noble Baroness may recall that the Belfast agreement came into being on 10 April 1998. It was agreed that there would be an Assembly with full legislative and executive authority for the six Northern Ireland government departments. Furthermore, it was agreed that the European Convention on Human Rights would be embraced in any Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland that supplemented it. Of course, it is 13 years since the Belfast agreement and things do not stay still. We got a Human Rights Act in December 1998. The devolved Assembly has these powers and from time to time legislative consent motions are required. On 16 February—

International Women's Day

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, this has been an excellent debate and a very fine way to celebrate the centenary of International Women’s Day, to mark the huge achievements to date and discuss the old and new challenges that remain. Six formidable maiden speeches have enhanced our debate and it is clear that the six noble Baronesses are going to add a huge amount to debates in this Chamber; their knowledge and expertise will be invaluable as we scrutinise and revise legislation. We have also had two young women at the Table today, which must, I think, be a milestone in this House and we all celebrate that.

I pay tribute, like so many here today, to my noble friend Lady Gould of Potternewton for yet again taking this important initiative. This debate, now an annual event, is always a pleasure because it brings together women, and some men, from all of our Benches to discuss issues that have an impact on women’s lives in this country and the wider world. There is much that we agree on and I pay tribute to the fine women that we have in this Chamber and their achievements and also to the women who came before us in this House. I used to work for Lady Castle, but I also think of Lady David, Lady Darcy de Knayth and Lady Carnegy of Lour, to name but a few, all of whom I really revered and of whom I was very fond.

I am delighted that there has been a focus on international issues. It is women who drive development on the ground; it is women and girls who so often do the hard work in the fields, in social enterprises, using micro-loans, in situations where there is conflict, often in fragile states and, of course, in nurturing families, sometimes in desperate or violent situations. It is all too often the women of this world who suffer. The many statistics we have heard today are stark. The fact that women earn just 10 per cent of the world’s income and work two-thirds of the hours is just one of them. The human stories and the human misery about which we have heard are even more stark. I could weep and they make me even more resolute to act, not just for our girls and young women, as we have just heard from my noble friend Lady Dean, but for women all over the world.

Like many noble Lords, I received an excellent briefing from VSO entitled The Godmothers: Keeping UN Women on Track. I have a very high regard for the work of VSO and I hope to do a placement with them in the Whitsun Recess, treading in the footsteps of many noble Lords and Baronesses who have seen first-hand their work in the field and the impact that gender inequality has on the lives and livelihoods of women, from poor health outcomes to lack of access to income-generating opportunities. Women are too often held back simply because they are women. That is why, like so many other noble Lords, I believe that the UN women’s agency is important, working globally to empower women to improve their lives and addressing the underlying causes of gender inequality. It has a huge task and I know it is one that the Government support. That is why they continue to target women and girls in development policy.

Like my noble friends, I am concerned, however, about funding and I applaud the Godmothers campaign led by VSO calling on the Government to commit £21 million in annual core funding—just 0.2 per cent of the UK overseas aid budget—to UN Women. We look to the UN to assist women in conflict throughout the world. At the UN on 19 June 2008 seven of the 20 nations were represented by women when the Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1820 and demanded the immediate and complete halt of sexual violence against civilians in conflict zones. It was a very important moment, under the presidency of the then US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice. So it is not just the technical ability and expertise which women bring, it is also the emotional intelligence that can contextualise and give voice to the aspiration of women across the globe.

On all sides of this Chamber we are involved in various aspects of civil society. We all applaud volunteering and we celebrate the work of our charities. On these Benches, however, we believe that the Government are an indispensable partner for the voluntary sector and the bedrock of a strong society. In government we had a proud record of supporting the third sector, and throughout this House we welcome people who want to volunteer. Platform 51, for example, which we used to know as the YWCA, does a great job of volunteering both within its own services and with other organisations, supporting girls and women to make positive changes in the world around them and encouraging them to give back to society.

Mr Cameron has said that he wants to make it easier for people to volunteer, and that is great, but we must not forget that people need to earn a living. They cannot do jobs for free unless they are wealthy or retired, or unless via endless juggling of family commitments they can find a few hours a week. Traditionally, of course, it is women who are at the forefront of the voluntary sector, and it is they who are now suffering disproportionately from the painful cuts that are being inflicted on the charitable sector—or the “big society”, as the Government like to call it.

Not only is the big society being asked to step in to pick up the pieces when services are cut, but the scale and speed of the cuts are severely affecting the voluntary and community sectors themselves. They are confronting two enormous problems, and it is often women who are desperately trying to find solutions. Concern has been expressed by the heads of charities, the CEO of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations and countless non-political people up and down the country. The NCVO has set up a brilliant website so that people are aware of the problems in their local areas, and it is chilling to see the number of cuts that have been made since the site went live on 24 January.

I know that the Minister will say that the cuts are being made because of the deficit left by my Government, a Government of whom I am extremely proud and who did a huge amount for women. I must refute those arguments before she makes them. We agree that there is a large deficit and it must be dealt with. That is why we had, and have, a plan to halve the deficit in four years. However, the Government had a choice about how to deal with the deficit and they have chosen to cut it too far and too fast. They have chosen to hit local government with bigger cuts than other government departments, and they have chosen to front-load so that the heaviest cuts fall in the first year rather than being spread evenly over four years. This is having a profound effect on women who work and volunteer in charities, who work in public services and who benefit from services.

As noble Lords will know, I come from the Forest of Dean in the south-west where there are many rural areas. Women in rural areas, as well as in urban areas, are being hit by a huge cut in bus services, by cuts in respite care if they are carers or being cared for, by cuts in luncheon and other clubs if they are elderly, by cuts in youth centres and services if they are young, by cuts in the EMA if they are teenagers, by cuts in Sure Starts if they are young mums and by cuts in libraries, including mobile libraries, which are so important for women living in isolated areas.

Women and men in rural areas are also being hit very hard by the rise in fuel prices. From these Benches we call upon the Chancellor to reverse the VAT rise on fuel that has added nearly 3p to the cost of a litre of petrol. That would profoundly help women and men all over the country, especially those in rural areas.

Many noble Lords have raised the issue of domestic violence, and I note that the excellent charity Women’s Aid has warned that government cutbacks could be catastrophic for victims of domestic abuse in the UK. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, for her practical and excellent work. Noble Lords all around this Chamber are concerned about domestic violence and I ask the Minister, who I know shares these concerns, to do her utmost to ensure that emergency safety accommodation places and support for victims of domestic abuse are protected from the cuts. The Government cannot hide behind the fact that they are providing the money to local authorities; those authorities are having to make dreadful cuts, and it is often women who are living in very violent situations who suffer.

Next week on International Women’s Day I am having lunch here with an extraordinary woman and her children. She was attacked by her husband with an axe when she was asleep and, among other injuries, she lost an eye. She has benefited greatly from the support of many charities, including the Castle Gate Family Trust at Gloucester prison, of which I am proud to be the patron. Many of those charities are now struggling to survive despite the fact that this amazing woman, having been a beneficiary, is now working with them, which is absolutely terrific.

The noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, rightly spoke of the situation in Egypt and the evolving situation in the Middle East, as did many other Peers. Like others, I note that there is not one single woman on the constitutional committee in Egypt and I very much hope that our Government, the EU and the UN will do their utmost to try to ensure that where there is democracy-building in the Middle East and new institutions being built there are women, and to encourage these new, emerging democracies to ensure that women are on those terribly important bodies.

Finally, I mention the very welcome report by my noble friend Lord Davies of Abersoch. He was a champion for women on boards when he was in government and was tasked by this Government to do further research and write a report. I know that some people—including the Fawcett Society, for which I have huge respect—will be disappointed that he did not recommend a quota system but if headhunters and company chairmen fail in their task to recruit a proper proportion of women on to boards, there must in time be legislation and quotas. Will the Minister confirm that the Government will not hesitate to legislate, if necessary?

We know from all the research and evidence that having more women on boards is not just a matter of addressing an unacceptable inequality. It is about enabling boards to achieve better outcomes for their companies and for wider society. I agree with my noble friend Lady Gould that just as the time was right for this report on women in the boardrooms, perhaps we should now be doing more work and taking more action on the participation of women in the whole field of decision-making at all levels. Women must have access to power and participate in decision-making if the necessary changes in our global society are to be made.

Today, in addition to celebrating the achievements we have made and discussing the challenges here and in the wider world, we have had a superb lesson in social history. I will certainly remember the name of Mr Justice Joyce: I might even stick pins in him from time to time. Despite political and policy differences around the Chamber, we are united in our pursuit of a vision of society in which men and women have the same opportunities, rights and obligations wherever they may live. This is our responsibility. To realise that vision, we have to raise our voices, as my noble friend said. That is what we are doing today and what we can and must continue to do.

Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2011

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the order before the Committee today will extend the period in which donations and loans to political parties and others in Northern Ireland must be held confidentially by the Electoral Commission. Noble Lords will be aware that political parties across the United Kingdom must report donations and loans received above certain thresholds to the Electoral Commission.

In Great Britain, the Electoral Commission is under a duty to publish details of these donations. However, due to ongoing concerns about intimidation in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 made provision for details of any donations reported by Northern Ireland political parties to be held confidentially by the commission.

The 2006 Act provided that confidentiality should apply for only a temporary period—referred to in the Act as “the prescribed period”—and would expire on 31 October 2010, unless an order was made by the Secretary of State to extend that. Noble Lords may recall that this House approved a short extension of the prescribed period shortly after the election so that the provisions would expire on 1 March 2011. This was to allow for full consultation to take place on whether the time was right to move to full transparency.

A full 12-week consultation commenced shortly after this extension was approved and concluded on 25 October 2010. A total of 26 responses were received, mainly from members of the public, political parties and the media. Overall, the consultation demonstrated strong support from members of the public and journalists for full and immediate transparency. This was also supported by some political parties, including Sinn Fein, the Alliance Party and the Green Party. The Ulster Unionist Party and Democratic Unionist Party supported the extension of the current arrangements due to ongoing security concerns. The SDLP agreed that donor identities should be kept confidential, but believed that work should be undertaken to bring more transparency to the existing process.

The Electoral Commission also believed that identities should continue to be kept confidential if the Government concluded that the time was not yet right to move to full transparency, but agreed that there was room for greater transparency in the existing arrangements.

The consultation demonstrated that there is strong public support for full and immediate transparency, but also that concerns remain about the possible intimidation of donors. Noble Lords will be aware that, by its very nature, it is difficult properly to quantify levels of intimidation. Nevertheless, there has been a deterioration in recent years in the overall security situation in Northern Ireland. In particular, recent reports of the Independent Monitoring Commission have indicated an increase in paramilitary beatings and shootings.

It is very likely that this rise in violent activity has been accompanied by an increased risk of intimidation and that there would be a threat to the safety of those making donations to Northern Ireland parties if their identities were made known. The Government have therefore reluctantly concluded that the time is not yet right to move to full transparency and that it is necessary to bring forward the order to extend the prescribed period before us this evening.

However, I wish to reassure noble Lords that we have listened carefully to the expressions of support by the general public for more transparency in Northern Ireland. Since the consultation ended, officials have examined the possibility of bringing more transparency to the current process within the existing legislative framework. The Government are particularly concerned that the 2006 Act does not just protect donor identities, but prohibits the release by the commission of any details at all relating to a donation.

We had hoped that the order-making powers in the 2006 Act might allow for secondary legislation to be made to relax the current strict requirements, so that some details of donations and loans might be released—for example, details of the recipient, the amount received and when the donation was made. However, following closer examination, questions have arisen about the extent to which the 2006 Act would permit that. Nevertheless, officials will continue to explore the possibility of further secondary legislation being made to provide for increased transparency. If that is not possible, we will seek to make such provision through primary legislation when a suitable legislative vehicle can be found.

Noble Lords may also be aware that the consultation paper sought views on whether donations and loans made during the prescribed period should be kept confidential when the prescribed period ends. Currently, the 2006 Act provides that details of such donations and loans will be released when the prescribed period expires. Again, the majority of respondents advocated full and immediate transparency, including the release of details of past donations and loans when the prescribed period ends. However, the UUP, DUP, SDLP and Electoral Commission strongly opposed the release of that information. They believe that many donors and recipients did not properly appreciate that the 2006 Act provided for the eventual release of the information and donated in the belief that their identities would not be released, even after the prescribed period had ended. In light of those concerns, the Government will seek a suitable legislative vehicle to make provision to ensure that the information is not released when the prescribed period expires.

In summary, it is with great reluctance that the Government bring forward this order to extend the existing arrangements. We remain committed to achieving complete consistency between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK when it comes to transparency in party funding. However, we cannot ignore the security risks that might arise if donor identities are made known at this time and the implications that it would have on the funding of political parties in Northern Ireland and the political process there more generally. Nevertheless, I hope that noble Lords are reassured that work will continue on doing everything possible to bring greater transparency to the existing arrangements.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful for the clear explanation from the Minister in what is rather a complex area. We note the strong support for lifting the exemption in place in Northern Ireland; I think that 77 per cent of respondents suggested that they were in favour of that. However, despite the enormous progress in Northern Ireland over recent years, we appreciate that the political situation there continues to be sensitive and that caution is required.

It is interesting that 12 per cent of respondents—the same number who supported the Government’s position of no change—supported option 3. As noble Lords know, that option is the current exemption with some modifications—for example, publishing the amounts received, the recipient, and whether the donor was an individual or a company. In principle we support greater transparency in the Northern Ireland political and electoral system but, given the serious and difficult security situation, we understand that a responsible Government need to exercise caution. We consider that option 3, which was canvassed in the Northern Ireland order consultation paper, struck a good balance between protecting the security of the people participating in the political process by providing donations and loans, and the expectation of the public to have transparency in the electoral system.

This is an important order so, as the Committee would expect, I have several questions to put to the Minister. He gave various reasons for continuing the current exemption unamended, but I wondered why the Government happened on two years. What is the rationale for that? He rightly mentioned the intimidation that is taking place. What are the Government planning to do to reduce the risk of intimidation that currently prevents the details being released? Will the Government use the two years’ extension to develop and implement a more transparent system for political donations and loans of the kind considered under option 3?

Paragraph 12 of the Government’s response to the consultation document said that the department would examine the possibilities of making option 3 transparency changes through secondary legislation. It would be helpful to have further clarification on that point. What options and types of transparency changes is the department looking at? What is the originating primary legislation power that would enable such secondary legislation to be made? What is the timeframe for this work? Finally, will the public be consulted on the possible options?

I hope that noble Lords will forgive this raft of questions, but they are very important. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for introducing this order. Bearing in mind that the Belfast agreement took place in 1998, it is very depressing that here we are and we cannot have normal conditions obtaining in Northern Ireland. I take some heart from the fact that it is only a two-year extension, by which I mean, pace the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that a signal has been given to the political parties that this is the last time that the order will be continued in its present form. I hope that it will lapse. As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has said, there have been great steps forward—after a very irregular start since the Belfast agreement when we had the suspension of Stormont—but we should look forward to normal transparencies obtaining.

To get a sense of the order of magnitude, I should like to ask my noble friend if for the past financial year he can indicate the totals of donations by party. While I appreciate that for the current year we might see an increase in donations because it is an election year, it will be nevertheless very interesting to have it on the public record to see at what sums we are looking—whether they are trivial or of some substance. I should be grateful for that information.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the three noble Lords for their contributions and will endeavour to respond accordingly. In terms of the Government’s position, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, made the helpful point that she understands where we are at present. She spoke very much about what she referred to as option 3 of what was put forward in the consultation. She asked why we had said two years. The legislation envisaged extensions of the prescribed period for up to two years, so that is the figure that one can go to and no further without another order. She asked what the Government were doing to reduce intimidation. The Government remain committed to doing everything possible to reduce violent activity in Northern Ireland. We continue to work with the Executive and security agencies to reduce overall paramilitary activity, which should lead to a corresponding decrease in intimidation.

The third point that the noble Baroness raised was about the use of the two years. Clearly, work has to be done—this reverts to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew—on either a new order or primary legislation before too long, because of the issues that noble Lords agreed on, I think, about not releasing past information on the basis that people made donations in the belief that the information about them as donors was not to be released. That would have to be dealt with. Similarly, there could be a system whereby it was not exposed if—for example—the noble Lord, Lord Bew, gave £10,000 to a party today, but the facts that there were £10,000, a recipient and a date could be given. As we understand it, that cannot be done under present legislation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to the originating power, which is in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions Act) 2006. I have not got a note about whether there will be a fresh period of consultation. That would be in the spirit of what happens in these matters but there is a sense in which what is planned is clear without further consultation, in that it would be about numbers, dates and the recipient party but not the name of the donor. Perhaps this could be done without a further consultation period, but I do not want to close the door on consultation. That copes with the points.

My noble friend Lord Smith of Clifton found it depressing, which I understand, and I wish I was not moving this order. I wish it were rather different, but this is the way it is. This is advice which is given about the security situation in Northern Ireland and what it is right to do. Like him, I would sooner be looking forward.

Over the weekend, I dug out what is on the public record as regards what the parties publish because the parties still have to produce their accounts to be registered with the Electoral Commission. I give this information, which is in the public domain, with one or two health warnings. This relates to the calendar year. All the parties that I shall mention have year ends in December 2009 and, therefore, that does not include what might have been a different year in 2010, when there was a general election.

Five of the parties—the DUP, Sinn Fein, the UUP, the SDLP and the Alliance Party—have between them 186 accounting units, no doubt constituency associations and so forth. Having looked at what is on record with the Electoral Commission, in the accounting units, there do not appear to be hefty figures labelled as donations. Looking at what is shown by the Northern Ireland-wide parties one sees that the DUP’s income was £348,000 with donations of £126,000; Sinn Fein’s income was £1.177 million and its donations £462,000; the UUP’s income was £392,000 and its donations £21,000; the SDLP’s income was £398,000 and its donations £83,000; the Alliance Party’s income was £151,000 and its donations £16,000; the PUP’s income was £107,000 and its donations £150; the Green’s income was £47,000 and its donations £7,000; the income of the Conservatives in Northern Ireland was £215,000 and its donations £204,000; the Labour Party’s income was £1,450 and it had no donations.

Those figures are available for anyone to look at on the website of the Electoral Commission. However, I cannot vouch that each party has put a donation in its own accounts as a donation which has been seen as recordable on the other side of the book with the Electoral Commission. Many of us might see a heavy subscription as a donation, but it might be called a subscription. There are certain health warnings on that, but it gives an idea of the fact that the Northern Ireland-wide income of the parties in that year was just over £2.8 million and the amount that is listed as donations is just over £900,000. Those are the figures and they give one a feel for the sort of numbers we are talking about.

I think I have covered the points made by noble Lords and I hope that the order will be accepted.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

Before the Minister sits down, I want to press him on one question on the option 3 transparency changes that might or might not be brought forward in secondary legislation. What sort of timeframe are we talking about for such secondary legislation?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I cannot be absolute about this. All I can say is that because the extension ends on 1 March, clearly, moves have to be made now to move that further forward. As I understand it, people are working on this within the Northern Ireland Office because there is a general view that at least there will be an element of greater transparency. I certainly hope that we do not have to wait long to see if this can be done without primary legislation. It might be rather more difficult if we have to look at primary legislation.

Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the two orders before us today are largely technical in nature and update the law governing elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly and to district councils in Northern Ireland in advance of elections in 2011. I will speak to the Assembly order first.

Noble Lords may be aware that the law governing elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly was substantially amended as recently as 2009. Since then, there have been some minor procedural updates that have been applied to European and parliamentary elections that should also be applied to Assembly elections for consistency. For example, Article 3 of the Assembly order makes provision to allow a candidate standing in the name of two or more parties to have one of those parties’ emblems on the ballot paper. It also enables a person who cannot sign his or her signature to place a mark in place of any signature required at the nomination stage. Article 4 requires individuals to give reasons if they request their absent vote to be sent to a different address from that at which they are registered. Although these changes are relatively minor, they nevertheless mirror updates to the law applying at other elections in Northern Ireland made since 2009 and will provide for greater consistency.

I now turn to the draft local elections order, which is more substantial and provides a much needed update of the law governing local elections in Northern Ireland.

The Electoral Administration Act 2006 made considerable amendments to the law governing parliamentary elections across the United Kingdom. As I mentioned earlier, these were applied to Northern Ireland Assembly elections and European elections in 2009, but have not yet been applied to district council elections in Northern Ireland. These amendments are set out in Schedule 1 to the order and include allowing returning officers to correct procedural errors and to supply documents in other languages and formats. Schedule 1 also makes provision for the control of donations to candidates at local elections in Northern Ireland, which brings them into line with the donation controls that apply at all other elections in Northern Ireland and across the UK.

Schedule 2 to the order makes changes to absent voting procedures, which again already apply at other elections in Northern Ireland. These include adding registered social workers to the list of those who may attest absent vote applications on the grounds of illness and disability, which will make it easier for people with disabilities living in the community to apply for an absent vote. Schedule 3 to the order aligns the law at local elections relating to access and inspection of documents with procedures at all other elections in Northern Ireland. The order also amends the local election rules contained in Schedule 5 to the Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962. This includes updating the list of acceptable forms of photographic identity that can be presented in order to vote in Northern Ireland, which is, of course, crucial to ensure consistency of approach for all polls in 2011.

The order is lengthy and time does not really permit a detailed examination of each provision, but I hope noble Lords are satisfied that these small changes are nevertheless important to provide much needed modernisation of local election procedures in Northern Ireland and greater consistency with other elections across the UK.

Finally, I turn to Article 3 of the Local Elections (Northern Ireland) Order, which sets the date of the next district council elections in Northern Ireland for 5 May 2011. Noble Lords will be aware that, in 2008, the previous Government agreed to a request from the Northern Ireland Executive to postpone the local elections that were scheduled to take place in May the following year, 2009. Legislation was subsequently approved to postpone the election until 2011 on a date to be specified by further legislation closer to the time. The postponement was to allow time for new local government boundaries to be redrawn as part of the overall review of public administration that was taking place in Northern Ireland, which was to provide, among other things, for the number of district councils in Northern Ireland to be reduced from 26 to 11.

I have to report that this planned reduction did not proceed. Although the local government boundaries commissioner reported to the Executive with proposed new boundaries on time in 2009, an order has still not been brought before the Assembly to give effect to them. In June this year, my honourable friend the Minister of State made absolutely clear to the Executive that there could be no prospect of further postponement of the elections beyond the two years previously agreed. He also advised that further delay in passing the order to give effect to the boundaries would seriously jeopardise planning for elections in May 2011.

An urgent decision therefore needed to be taken by the Executive on whether the proposed new councils could be delivered in time to allow for elections to them in May 2011. On 15 June, the Environment Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive confirmed that the reorganisation would not now go ahead in 2011. The Government announced shortly after this that there was now no option but to hold elections in May 2011 to the existing 26 councils. The legislation before us this evening will now provide for this.

Noble Lords will be aware that elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly are also scheduled to be held on 5 May 2011 and that there is a Bill currently before this House to provide for a referendum on the alternative vote also on this date. I appreciate that there may be some concerns about holding all three elections on the same day and I agree that this will present unique logistical challenges.

However, I can reassure noble Lords that the Government have received the advice of the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Officer on this matter and both are confident that a combined poll in May 2011 can be successfully delivered if the risks are properly managed. Officials are therefore working closely with the commission and the Chief Electoral Officer in the run-up to the polls to ensure the early identification and resolution of any potential problems.

In summary, I hope that noble Lords are satisfied that the vast majority of the provisions in these orders would result in small changes that are nevertheless important to ensure greater consistency with elections elsewhere in the UK. I also hope that noble Lords will agree that the date of the next local elections should be set for 5 May 2011 and are satisfied that all necessary steps will be taken to ensure that all three polls will be conducted successfully. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing forward these orders and for allowing your Lordships the time to debate them today. Northern Ireland has made extraordinary progress in the past few years. With the support of all parties and all communities, Northern Ireland has seen political developments which have helped to bring it out of the dark days of the violence of the Troubles. Enormous efforts have been made and for the first time in a generation the majority of people in Northern Ireland can live peaceful lives, which is a tribute to many people in the Chamber today and to all our parties on working together. However, we cannot forget that the situation is fragile. Political stability is still relatively new and we must ensure that proposals to change the way in which the electoral situation works in Northern Ireland do not damage this stability.

These orders contain relatively technical issues. We understand that they are designed to facilitate the smooth running of the elections due to be held in Northern Ireland in May 2011, but of course they deserve proper scrutiny. We are particularly keen to ensure that the Government are taking all measures that they can to prevent difficulties in the conduct of these elections. We are concerned that any changes to the rules could cause confusion. The potential for confusion in Northern Ireland on 5 May 2011 is substantial. Two elections are already scheduled for this day; that is, the local council elections and a poll for seats to the Northern Ireland Assembly. As the Minister acknowledged, the Government plan to add to these a referendum vote on adopting the alternative vote for elections to the House of Commons.

These orders, together with the schedules to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill before your Lordships’ House and due to receive the forensic scrutiny that it deserves, facilitate the combination of the three polls on 5 May. Will the Minister assuage the worries of many Members on these Benches and, I suspect, across the House that holding so many polls on one day will lead to confusion? Is the Minister confident that all the rules will be in place in sufficient time in advance of the May polls? It is vital that the people of Northern Ireland get the maximum amount of information to ensure that they are fully prepared for what will be an unprecedented voting day next May. Will the Minister assure the House that this will happen?

We on these Benches are concerned that any undue confusion has the potential to be particularly damaging to the embryonic political settlement in Northern Ireland, and this cannot be put at risk. I acknowledge the Minister’s assurance that he is working with the Electoral Commission and that everything will be in place. But the task is enormous and I hope that the Minister and his colleagues will keep in contact with people in Northern Ireland to ensure that everything is properly in place, and that the Government will do everything that they can to assist if and when necessary.

The Government’s programme of constitutional reform would see boundaries redrawn and three fewer MPs available to serve the people of Northern Ireland. This will have consequential effects on the nature of representation in the Assembly. It is possible that this will result in there being 18 fewer MLAs. What might the effects of this be on the current balance in the Assembly? Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will give proper consideration to not disrupting the Assembly balance, and will he bring forward proposals to ensure that? If this does not happen, we fear another jolt to the stability achieved in Northern Ireland.

If the Bill for fixed-term Parliaments is passed as drafted, in 2015 we will have council elections, general elections and Assembly elections on the same day. The three elections will all be held using different, possibly very different, electoral systems. Furthermore, if the coalition Government get their way with their plans to dramatically redesign the constituency map of the United Kingdom, these elections will take place under new boundaries as well. This will mean the height of complication.

The Minister has told us that these orders are intended to smooth the running of elections in Northern Ireland. Taken together with the Government’s wider reform plans, we are deeply concerned that the result will be quite the opposite.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing these two orders. They take me back 40 years, to almost the middle of the last century, to when I was the Minister at Home Affairs responsible for elections in Northern Ireland. At the time, we had irregularities in elections in Northern Ireland. Some people would say, “Vote early and vote often. It works well”. But that does not exist today, far from it. I can well recall standing in an election in South Tyrone as a Member of Parliament at the time. We noticed a lot of applications for postal votes all going to an address in the Republic of Ireland. We were very worried about this because a nationalist candidate had done it. I said that there was only one answer, and that was to take the entire election team to the Republic of Ireland to be photographed in front of the house that was getting all those postal votes, and to get the photograph into all the media. We did that. We invaded the Republic, had a photograph taken of us with our rosettes, and the publicity meant that the postal votes were never exercised. I must say that I am glad to see in one of the orders before us today that postal votes will be delivered only to the address on the electoral register. That abuse is finally going to be ended.

I can say with no embarrassment whatever that today Northern Ireland has the best postal voting controls in the United Kingdom. It is now areas in England, such as Birmingham, where cheating is taking place. So far as the electoral laws in Northern Ireland are concerned, there are many that could now be extended and put into practice in the United Kingdom. This should be looked at by the electoral authorities in Great Britain.

The Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland and his staff are to be congratulated on the control and efficiency of elections today. We are now debating the Assembly elections to be held on 5 May 2011, and as the noble Baroness has just said, there may be a third vote in the form of a referendum arising from the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. That would mean three elections in one day. Incidentally, that Bill will mean fewer Members of Parliament in another place, and since the Northern Ireland Assembly has six MLAs for each constituency, it would suggest that there are going to be fewer MLAs in Northern Ireland as well. I do not know whether the Minister will wish to comment on that because it strays slightly from the two orders before the House.

We are probably going to have three elections on the same day, and that will be slightly confusing. It will take a lot more time for a voter to exercise three separate ballots in the polling station. Will there be three separate ballot boxes in the polling station, and will the three ballot papers be of different colours, although I hope not green, white and orange?

I note that the notices about the elections can be reproduced in languages other than English. Of course, Chinese is now the second most spoken language in Northern Ireland after English, but I presume that this measure is also intended for the large number of European citizens who have come to live in Northern Ireland, especially Polish, Lithuanian and Portuguese people. Will the decision to use these languages—Chinese, Portuguese and so on—be left to the local returning officer or will it cover the whole of Northern Ireland?

Bloody Sunday Inquiry

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I welcome this debate and thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt of Greetland, for providing this House with an opportunity to have a thorough discussion of the findings of such a vital report—a report that has healed many wounds. I, too, look forward to the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven.

The Saville inquiry’s findings are not only crucial in establishing the truth of what happened on that fateful day 38 years ago but also of great consequence for the future of Northern Ireland. Many noble Lords speaking today have huge personal experience in Northern Ireland and have shown a consistent interest in its progress towards peace. I must make special mention of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, whose wonderful work with Denis Bradley in chairing the Consultative Group on the Past has been an important step in dealing with the legacy of 40 years of violence and mistrust in Northern Ireland. Like the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, I believe that we will benefit from his wise experience today.

The events of Bloody Sunday can and should never be forgotten. The findings of the Saville report were long awaited by all those affected by what happened during the course of the civil rights march in Londonderry on 30 January 1972. More important, the conclusions of the inquiry were painfully anticipated by the families of the 13 civilians who were killed by Army gunfire on that day, as they were by those who were injured. The finding of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, that some of those killed or injured were clearly fleeing the area or going to the assistance of others who were dying is truly appalling. Conclusions that one person was shot while,

“crawling ... away from the soldiers”,

and another was shot, in all probability,

“when he was lying mortally wounded on the ground”,

are shocking and indefensible.

Bloody Sunday occurred in the context of a reignited campaign of armed violence by paramilitary groups and internment without trial by security forces policing the streets. The British Army was in Londonderry on Bloody Sunday, as it had been since the flare-up of violence in 1969, as an aid to the police service of Northern Ireland in restoring order to the city. The men and women of the British Army are, I believe, second to none. We owe an enormous debt to the work of our Armed Forces, which have played an essential role in maintaining order and achieving peace in Northern Ireland. Their record of service is justly commendable. However, the conclusions of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, shocked us all. What happened on that day was wrong and we agreed with the Prime Minister when he said in his measured and honest Statement on 15 June that,

“you do not defend the British Army by defending the indefensible”.

He was right to say that,

“what happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/6/10; cols. 739-40.]

We welcome the full and unreserved apology from the British Government and we share that apology.

It was vital to get to the bottom of what happened on Bloody Sunday because of the impact that the events of that day had on the subsequent 30 years of violence and political unrest in the Province. It was vital and it warranted an independent judicial inquiry because of the distinct nature of who was involved in what occurred in Londonderry that day. As Tony Blair said when he announced the Bloody Sunday inquiry to the Commons in 1998:

“Bloody Sunday was different because, where the state’s own authorities are concerned, we must be as sure as we can of the truth, precisely because we pride ourselves on our democracy and respect for the law, and on the professionalism and dedication of our security forces”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/1/98; col. 502.]

The inquiry was vital because of the shortcomings and unanswered questions left over from the Widgery inquiry. As my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton remarked in evidence to the Public Administration Select Committee in the other place, the Widgery inquiry was both,

“an unsatisfactory and unfair inquiry”.

Finally, Saville was vital for the Bloody Sunday families, as the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, suggested.

The Saville inquiry has established the truth. That is what it set out to do and its value is immeasurably large. However, from these Benches, we argue that this value can be truly realised and sustained only once certain questions have been answered. In his Statement marking the publication of the Saville inquiry, the Prime Minister told the other place that there would be,

“no more open-ended and costly inquiries into the past”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/6/10; col. 741.]

So what now of the inquiry into the death of Pat Finucane? What about the deaths of the 11 civilians at Ballymurphy in 1971, an incident where some of the soldiers on duty on the day were the same service personnel who were to be in Londonderry six months later? What about an inquiry into the Omagh bombing? To focus on the Ballymurphy case, in the context of the announcement that this is the end of the line for public inquiries, will the families find it slightly confusing that the Secretary of State recently met those who lost their loved ones at Ballymurphy? Perhaps it raised expectations of success in their call for just such an inquiry.

The noble Lord rightly spoke of the importance of reconciliation and commended the work of the Historical Enquiries Team. The purpose of the HET, a specially convened independent police team, is to try to help people bereaved by the Troubles by answering their questions and looking at each case thoroughly, with a view to bringing forward any new or remaining evidential opportunities. The HET hopes to bring a measure of closure for the families of those killed and to bring some closure on the past. The HET is looking into more than 3,000 deaths. Its budget was originally set at £34 million over seven years. The HET is half way through its case load and it has spent all its allocated money. The scale of the historical case review is unprecedented and the HET has neither the human resources nor the budget to conduct complex inquiries like the Bloody Sunday or the Billy Wright inquiries. The Government cannot rely on the underresourced HET to deal with all the remaining cases, especially any future complex inquiries. The Billy Wright inquiry cost £35 million and that was for just one incident and one death. There are cases remaining of the complexity and profile of Billy Wright and it seems clear to these Benches that the HET is not the mechanism to address them. I also remind the House that, while funding for public inquires comes from central government at Westminster, the budget of the HET is supplied by the Government at Stormont.

However, this is not a time to stand still and tell the HET how to handle its workload. The situation in Northern Ireland is peaceful, but still fragile, as recent violence has made clear. It is crucial that we build a consensus to find a process to replace inquires, if they are to be ruled out. We must find a process to deal with the complex past; we cannot shut it down.

We in this House are all agreed that Northern Ireland has made outstanding progress out of the dark days of the violence of the Troubles and we celebrate that. We can and must build on this peace, and the lessons of Saville, by addressing the needs of Northern Ireland in the round. One crucial way in which to do this is through investment in community policing. The Government must affirm their support for all communities in Northern Ireland with proper investment in the Police Service of Northern Ireland. If this does not happen, there is a very real risk that the community policing role will be taken over by dissidents. Northern Ireland is not immune from value for money, but it is a special case and should be recognised by the Government as such. The Secretary of State must win his battle with the Treasury ahead of next week’s comprehensive spending review. A large percentage of Northern Ireland’s population is employed in the public sector, but the Troubles helped to bring about this state of affairs. Private investment in Northern Ireland is possible, and is happening, but it needs help and encouragement. Northern Ireland needs to be given the means to ensure that the ends of peace are sustained. Economic support for Northern Ireland is support for the peace process itself.

The Saville report clearly states the significance of events on 30 January 1972:

“What happened on Bloody Sunday strengthened the Provisional IRA, increased nationalist resentment and hostility towards the Army and exacerbated the violent conflict of the years that followed. Bloody Sunday was a tragedy for the bereaved and the wounded, and a catastrophe for the people of Northern Ireland”.

The truth has been arrived at and, with it, some closure for the Bloody Sunday families. I am glad that my party while in government made the decision to look again at the events of Bloody Sunday and I am immensely proud of the work that we did with the parties and communities of Northern Ireland to bring a successful peace settlement to the Province. Of course, we worked with many noble Lords in this House, on the Benches opposite and from the Benches around us. Tony Blair said that the aim of the Saville inquiry was,

“to establish the truth, and to close this painful chapter once and for all”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/1/98; col. 502.]

I hope that that is what it has done.

The value of the Saville report cannot be underestimated, but remaining questions must be answered. The Government must anticipate potential situations in Northern Ireland, must be sensitive and get to know the communities and must stick to the principles that enabled us to build, prosecute and deliver peace to Northern Ireland. I am confident that that is what they will wish to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Glentoran]

My Lords, in 1971, 496 people died in Northern Ireland, which was the highest casualty rate in any year of the Troubles. I am not as confident as everybody would appear to be about the Saville report. Throughout the 12 years that it has been going on, I sat on the Benches opposite and hassled to try to get something out of it in a reasonable length of time. I failed abjectly. However, we have been in power for only a few months, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State got the report published and the Prime Minister made his major Statement in a very short space of time. Why that did not happen under the previous Secretary of State is anybody’s guess.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I respectfully point out to the noble Lord and the rest of the House that the report was ready to go when the election was called. It was ready as a consequence of the actions of my Government working in tandem with the Government of the noble Lord. I fully respect the noble Lord, but I do not respect what he just said about the timing of the publication. The Prime Minister did a magnificent job with his Statement, but I take issue with the noble Lord on the timing issue.

[Lord Glentoran]

I accept what the noble Baroness says, but will attempt to correct it after a nod in this House. The reason why I am little unhappy about the report has not been mentioned. It is that a certain lawyer who was representing the Army claimed that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, cherry-picked the evidence to help to paint the picture that he wanted,

“after 12 years and 191 million pounds to give a report which gave very clear findings even where in truth the evidence didn't support them”.

Another negative about the report is from the civil rights organisation British Irish Rights Watch. It states that what saddens it is that after all this time and all this effort very little more is known about Bloody Sunday than was known before the inquiry took place and that the report begs more questions than it answers.

That is a serious warning about the future. I accept the plight of the victims and that victims are our major concern and should be. In Northern Ireland, when we are talking about the affairs that we are talking about today, there is nothing more important than the care of victims, particularly in the past.

The world has changed. Londonderry is now a city of culture. Who could have imagined that in 1972? As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and others said, the Prime Minister made a fantastic, emotional Statement in another place that went a long way to appeasing a large number of people in Derry. I have spoken to one or two people to whom noble Lords might not have expected me to speak, one of whom was at our party conference. He assured me that the families of Bloody Sunday victims are largely relaxed—they are unhappy and sad—and do not wish to push for prosecutions.

Where are we now? Where do we go? A lot of people have talked about where we are and where we go, but we have not had any answers yet. A lot of the press statements and other comments—I also have it from Sinn Fein—indicate that prosecutions are not being sought. There also is legal evidence of the requisites that will have to be met if prosecutions are to take place. There has to be a better than 50/50 chance of getting a conviction, which has to be in the public interest. Certainly, defence lawyers would use the 38 years, or perhaps 40 years, rule before bringing people to trial. So that rules out prosecution of the soldiers. A further fact is that if soldiers were brought to court and convicted, they would not spend a single day in jail because of past legislation and all the other things that go with it.

As far as we are concerned, prosecutions for the future are off the table as regards Bloody Sunday, even though—someone might want to stir things up—some soldiers have admitted perjury. However, they still cannot be prosecuted because, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, said, they cannot convict themselves. Hence, that is out too. We have no possibility of any convictions, trials or prosecutions for the happenings of Bloody Sunday.

Let us return to where we go now, on which a lot of people have spoken. I agree that we have to go forward. We have to find a way of giving people some satisfaction that they know what happened. We have to do our best to ensure that the families of victims and so on are kept as well informed as possible about what happened on particular days. I do not believe that going forward with major inquiries costing millions of pounds, with the sole objective of finding some evidence to give comfort to family and friends, is a way to go.

Of the inquiries that are going on now, as is well known, the Wright inquiry found nothing. It did not even find how guns were got into the jail. Mr Wright, the father, is still as bitter, twisted and unhappy as he was before. He got no satisfaction out of that inquiry, which cost £30 million. We can go on. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, has some good examples, while I am reading out the not-very-good ones. That is where I think that we are.

In summary, I do not believe that the Saville report was a great success or that it achieved very much more than the Widgery report. The whole thing was almost a white elephant. I accept what noble Lords have said about being wise with hindsight, but that is where we are. It is very important that, following the speeches made by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, and others, we find a Christian, solid way of going forward, and of handling these things when they happen.