House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Northbrook]

My Lords, will I also be able to move Amendment 73, which refers to Section 10, in the same way?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the House decided earlier today to take amendments in a certain order: that is, Clauses 10 to 19 and then Clauses 1 to 9. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, said that certain amendments were not to be moved. It seems difficult to move an amendment if it is not there in the first place, but that is the way it will be done. We are proceeding now with Clauses 10 to 19 and they will be followed by Clauses 1 to 9. Matters will be dealt with in order at that time.

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, this is abusing procedure in a dangerous way. The noble Lord is saying that, should the Government wish to use the Steel mechanism on something such as the health Bill, they could reorder it in such a way that knocks out subsequent amendments because they are consequential on an earlier amendment to be moved later—and there would not be time to reschedule them. The whole of the amendment list should have been rejigged when this was proposed, in such a way that the consequential amendments were in the right order. This is an abuse of process. I do not like that sort of thing happening in Parliament, and certainly not in the Upper House.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the House decided earlier this morning the order in which it wanted to discuss a Private Member’s Bill. When it comes to government Bills, noble Lords will recall—as on many days—that we have a commitment Motion and the order in which things are to be debated is listed. Often that is in numerical order but sometimes, for the convenience of the House, it is put in a different order. With government business—this is not government business—that is done some days before the business comes before the House.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, could my noble friend clarify this so that I am absolutely sure? As he rightly said, we are now debating Clauses 10 to 19 and following that we will debate Clauses 1 to 9. When that happens, will the House allow me to go back up the list of amendments and move, for example, Amendment 75 to Clause 5?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

Strictly speaking: yes, but that will of course depend on the amendment being put in the first place.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, before I withdraw the amendment—as I will do in a moment—is it not clear, following the Motion moved by my noble friend Lord Steel this morning and agreed by your Lordships, that we are now in a considerable state of disarray as far as these clauses and amendments are concerned? I am not particularly bright or talented but I have had the privilege of being a Member of your Lordships’ House for nearly 50 years. I cannot remember how many committees I have take part in or even led from the Dispatch Box. I have never found myself in this disarray before. Plainly, I think that noble Lords took the decision to reorder consideration of these clauses without the benefit of adequate advice. Did we not understand that the confusion now reigning would take place? I suspect that there is not much that we can do about it now unless we decided to adjourn for a moment to allow the clerks to reorder the Marshalled List. If that is not to happen—I do not suppose that it is—I shall beg leave, for now, to withdraw the amendment, unless, that is, my noble friend has some more to say.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

It may be helpful to read out paragraph 8.65 in the Companion:

“Each amendment on the marshalled list and each manuscript amendment is called in turn by the Lord on the Woolsack or in the Chair, subject only to pre-emption. An amendment which has been tabled need not be moved, but if none of the members named as supporters of the amendment moves it any other member may do so”.

That is quite clear on what can happen. Noble Lords will have noticed with care that, although I have been sat here for quite a time, I have not spoken. That is because this is private business. It is not government business and the House decided what to do. It was in the hands of the House and the House decided—there was a vote—that noble Lords would take the back half of the Bill first and then come to the front half. That was decided earlier today.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I of course accept that the House decided to agree to my noble friend Lord Steel’s Motion earlier today and that is that. I suggest that it might have been better had the Minister offered some advice on the result of agreeing that Motion while your Lordships discussed it. Be that as it may, he did not do so and we are now somewhat confused. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment that I moved on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart.

--- Later in debate ---

Amendment 129 withdrawn.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, at this stage it may be helpful to mention that we are running out of groupings on the list that we have. Therefore, there is a new list in the Printed Paper Office, which takes us from Amendment 130 to the end and starts again at Amendment 1. That new document is available for Members.

[Viscount Astor]

My noble friend kindly gave me a copy of the groupings list. I should point out that my two Amendments 68 and 75 are not on the groupings list.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Would it not be for the convenience of the House if the staff distributed the new list, instead of us all marching out to get hold of it?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, anything for the convenience of the House but I have never before seen papers distributed. It occurred to me, frankly. Clearly, that can be done. As to the missing amendments, I will make my inquiries.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I do not have a copy of the revised groupings list. I am taking my amendments individually and not grouping them, but it shows how very tricky these proceedings have become. This is a very bad precedent for discussing a Private Member’s Bill regardless of what Bill we are discussing.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I delayed rising in the hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench had some answers. I do not know whether the fifth cavalry has moved speedily enough but in the hope that they are scribbling frantically behind me—

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

There may or may not be words of wisdom arriving. I remind the noble Earl that this is a Private Member’s Bill. The Government are here to be helpful from time to time but we do not have the answers as it is not our Bill.

While I am on my feet, I have further news. The Government Whips’ Office produced this splendid document showing that there are continued grouping of amendments, going up to Amendment 20 on the second page. It is an ambitious document, with 31 groupings yet to come. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, was concerned about his Amendment 68. That one comes after another 31 amendments, after the 31 groups on the sheet. He is also concerned about Amendment 75, which is five amendments after that—in other words, 67 amendments on. Ambition is splendid and it may be that moving with great speed another list has to be issued. We shall see.

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[Lord Lyell]

I hesitate to intervene because my noble friend on the Front Bench is about to move on. He is trying to draw a distinction between a Private Member’s Bill and other legislation that passes through your Lordships’ House. Will he confirm with the authorities of the House what is different with the groupings and other procedures for a Private Member’s Bill as opposed to any other business in your Lordships’ House? I understand that the groupings are carried out with the agreement usually of both sets of authorities of the House but that it is open to each mover of each amendment not necessarily to agree and to insist on moving an amendment even though it may not be in accordance with the wishes of the Front Bench. Will my noble friend please explain why the usual arrangements might be different today because we are debating a Private Member’s Bill rather than any other procedures in your Lordships’ House?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, nothing is different apart from not having a Government and an Opposition endeavouring to agree groupings. We are dealing with people who are promoting a Private Member’s Bill and others—we do not know who they are—who take a different view. We do not know who they are in composite; we know them as individuals. Therefore, the Government Whips’ Office is trying to be helpful in doing these groupings. The noble Lord is correct that amendments can be degrouped, as we have seen today. This document is simply an attempt to help all noble Lords with the business before us.

Now I am on my feet I will say that I have been given a piece of paper which suggests that under existing sentencing powers, magistrates' courts can, for a single offence, imprison for a maximum of six months. A wide variety of offences can be punished by more than 12 months’ imprisonment. That is my information and I hope that it might help the noble Lord.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend on the Front Bench; that is certainly helpful to me. I say to my noble friend Lord Steel that I do not see why we have to be the same as another place if we are playing a slightly different role. I certainly agree that we are legislators. However, given our present make-up of being appointed, which I fear is likely to continue for some time, I do not see why we have to be identical on this.

I take the point—which I meant to make when I moved the amendment—that the clause could affect people's human rights. It was made by the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and by my noble friend Lord Swinfen, and we should discuss it. In order to be helpful to my noble friend Lord Steel, and given what he said, I shall not move Amendments 132 and 133. This should speed up the process. However, I point out that Amendment 133 is a pre-sequential amendment that refers to the Appointments Commission that he wants to get rid of—so we will have fun on that when we come to it. He offered me a lovely olive branch by saying, “Yes, I rather like your amendment, we can discuss it”. However, he will take away the whole point of the amendment later in the proceedings. If he will discuss with me whether it should be one year or more —perhaps two, three, four or five—and we can talk about the clause, I will not move my Amendments 132 and 133. I see him nod and I will take that as a yes. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, for reasons that have already been explained, the Companion states that we cannot do that. We have to deal with all the other amendments before we get to Amendment 163. That is not my wish; it is actually in the Companion.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

We can do it if—

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

We can do it. If Members would stop talking, we could get on.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords—

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

If I can just interject, we are on Amendment 142. It is possible, and there is time, to deal with Amendment 142. If noble Lords do not want to tarry on other amendments, there is time to conclude.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I agree—

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Before Clause 1, Amendment 1.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, let me just try something without being partial, because it is up to the House what it does. There is half an hour. Your Lordships may remember that on 20 July we were debating the Localism Bill, a government Bill. During a wonderful period between about 7.30 pm and 8 pm, everybody agreed to withdraw amendments and leave it until Report. Many different people were involved who were concerned with several different amendments. That decision was taken; it was left to Report, and Report on the Bill has now concluded. That would be a way forward, if that is what the House wishes, but it is in the hands of the House whether it wishes to do something like that or to proceed with several amendments and, perhaps, not get too far today.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My noble friend Lord Caithness and I cannot be asked to agree something on behalf of other noble Lords. It is not just my noble friend and myself who have tabled amendments to Part 1.

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[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I completely concur with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, and I look to the government Benches and Government Chief Whip to inform us of what happens next.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, there are five minutes left. If every amendment is called, it can be dealt with. That would take a bit of time, but that would be it. If that does not happen, I will have to move that the House do resume.

[Lord Trefgarne]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Erroll]

If it is removed, it cannot be debated on Report. Is that correct?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, as I understand it, it would not be in the Bill and therefore would not be discussed on Report.

Division called on whether Clause 1 should stand part of the Bill. Division called off.