House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Elton Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I recognise the grievance expressed by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. I understand why they feel as strongly as they do. Indeed, they erect their grievance into a point of principle. With great respect to them, I do not think that it really is a point of principle, but even if it is, there is a more important point of principle: a principle that we were reminded of a little earlier by the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby. We need to consider the reputation of this House. I speak as someone who holds individual hereditary Peers in enormous respect and personal affection. I recognise the quality of the work that they do as working Peers in this House, but I believe that the people of this country cannot see a rational justification in 2011 for the hereditary principle as a basis for membership of the legislature. It is 12 years since that agreement was made. In the interests of the reputation of this House, we need to reconsider the position. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, has been entirely right to include the provisions in the Bill.

I also note that the Bill would treat hereditary Peers who are Members of this House with the respect and courtesy that is proper. There is no suggestion that they should all be swept away in one fell swoop. The proposition is that over time, as nature takes its course, the hereditary Peers would disappear from the legislature. That is a decent, practical and proper way to proceed. I very much hope that the House will agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood.

[Lord Elton]

My noble friends Lord Trefgarne and Lord Caithness have made points that resonate strongly with me and with several other noble Lords. It is perfectly true that we are now in this position by the consent of a large number of our former noble friends—they are still our noble friends but they are no longer Members of this House—on the strict understanding that the rearguard would remain until a satisfactory position had been reached. That is a point of principle. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said very nice things about hereditary Peers, but fine words butter few Peers. We are here on an honourable understanding built on the understanding of many others who served this House for a very long time.

Why, therefore, do I support the Bill—as I do with a heavy heart? It seems to me that the real basic principle is not to do with undertakings that we have been given or the perception of the British public at the present time, it is the protection of the British people from their future Governments down the generations to come. The House of Commons, for various reasons, is now on occasion firmly in the grip of the Government of the day. We saw that very clearly in 2003. I would love to expand on that, but your Lordships want to get on.

The same circumstances would automatically arise if this were to be an elected House. We have to try to find a means by which an acceptable House remains without being replaced by an elected House. Reform is necessary, but it must not be a House made up of people who can be removed by the Whips of any governing party at their whim by deselection. That being so, we have to find something that is workable and acceptable. It seems to me quite possible that my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s heroic efforts to forge something acceptable from the draft Bill at present before his Committee may fail. What emerges may not be acceptable; in fact I very much doubt that it will. That being so, the search will be on, if time permits, for something else. If that something else is already here and working, there is a good chance that it will last. Therefore, I have to swallow my pride in the past and my affection for the present and leave my loyalty to the British people and to this sad but necessary device.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I am very pleased to follow the noble Lords, Lord Elton and Lord Howarth of Newport. I do not accept the general point that they are making about the Government’s Bill, but that is not before your Lordships' House today. We face a specific set of proposals from my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood and supported by many colleagues across the House. Since Second Reading, we have had many expressions of support for Clause 10 and for the Bill generally. It is important to remind your Lordships that they have come from all parts of the House.

I read the two-day debate in June on the White Paper and draft Bill, during which a whole range of views was expressed about this Bill as being the right way forward in the transitional period. This is not an exclusive list, but support came from the noble Baronesses, Lady Boothroyd, Lady Noakes, Lady Taylor of Bolton and Lady Royall of Blaisdon, the noble Lords, Lord Wakeham, Lord Bilimoria, Lord Low of Dalston, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market, Lord Elder, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, Lord Cobbold, Lord Howarth of Newport, Lord Lucas, Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Lord Stewartby, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, Lord Gilbert and Lord Lyell, together with the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, and the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow. There was a great range of support to make progress along the lines proposed by my noble friend and included in the clause. I, therefore, want to address the question that Clause 10 stand part.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Northbrook]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway in his recollection of events. The deal with the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, and the Lord Chancellor was done in 1999 on Privy Council terms and was not to be overturned unless substantial reform of the House was to be done. Like the noble Lord, I remember the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, confirming this from the Front Bench only three or four years ago.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, the agreement was made by the Front Benches in the Chamber: it is all in Hansard. What was said in secret in the Privy Council was preparatory to that. The records are clear in Hansard.

[Viscount Montgomery of Alamein]

My Lords, my name is on the amendment. I apologise for arriving late; I had a medical appointment, as happens all too frequently these days. I support what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. He was right that the deal made by the then Lord Chancellor and the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, now Marquess of Salisbury, to maintain 90 hereditary Peers was only a temporary measure until such time as there was full-scale reform of the House—which we still await. The House of Commons had about seven options to choose from and in its wisdom—or lack of it—chose to throw them all out. Therefore we are in this strange impasse. I wonder how long it will go on.

I made a proposal to the Wakeham Commission in 1999 that there should be an upper age limit in the House of Lords. I thought that it was a sensible suggestion. Unfortunately I am in breach of my own recommendation as I have now passed that age. Therefore, it is high time that we moved ahead and got on with the reform that I hope will one day happen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

It seems to me that the term “senate” has a republican ring about it, and I am not sure that that is what the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, may seriously intend for the future.

[Lord Elton]

I may well be wrong, because my Latin is rather out of date now, but I think that the root of the word is the same as that for “senex”, which means an old man. That is very appropriate to this House.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, will reflect on the word “shenanigans”, which he used a few moments ago. I take some exception to that description. We described at some length—and I will not repeat what I said then—why we objected to Clause 10 stand part. That was not shenanigans; it was responsible and respectable and a decent argument. I take exception to the words used by my noble friend, and I hope that he will withdraw them.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, as we have been debating the problem of reordering the Bill at the last minute, will the Government be able to use this mechanism in considering the health Bill, which will be highly contentious? I can see huge opportunities for managing to mess people up with the order of amendments.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, it will be important when we get to Amendment 123 to recall that the other amendments in the group—Amendments 4, 6, 58 and so on—will be highly relevant to that debate because they are consequential on Amendment 123. They will presumably be debated. Your Lordships will need to look at the earlier part of the Bill when considering Amendment 123 —as presumably noble Lords will.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, it would not be appropriate to pursue the matter further at this point but have we not identified the confusion that has now been caused by my noble friend reordering consideration of the Bill?