European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill

Stella Creasy Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 6th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

I begin by thanking my co-sponsors for their help and support with the Bill: the right hon. Members for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) and for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), and the hon. Members for Blackley and Middleton South (Graham Stringer), for Clacton (Nigel Farage), for South Antrim (Robin Swann), for Boston and Skegness (Richard Tice), for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart), for North Down (Alex Easton), for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell). I also wish to thank my own staff for their assistance during recent weeks, particularly Dr Dan Boucher, who has worked tirelessly on these matters. I record my appreciation of international lawyer Mr Barney Reynolds for his help and guidance on many of the technical issues.

Since I came to this House in July, I have lost count of the number of times I have heard affirmations from the Government Benches about “fixing the foundations.” Well, there is one foundation that most assuredly needs fixed, and that is the foundation that flows from the inequitable post-Brexit arrangements as they affect my part of the United Kingdom: Northern Ireland. The foundations of this United Kingdom have been disturbed and dislodged by those arrangements. The primary purpose of this Bill is, yes, to fix those foundations—to restore equilibrium to Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom and to our relationship as a nation with the EU.

In fixing the foundations, we need to reflect on the most basic tenet of democracy, namely that a people should be governed by laws made by those they elect to make those laws. That is so fundamental that we all presumably almost take it for granted, yet tragically and with great constitutional detriment, that is no longer the position in respect of Northern Ireland. There are 300 areas of law where the right to make laws is not exercised in this House or in the devolved Assembly, but has been surrendered to the European Parliament. That is such a momentous thing that it should cause anyone who values the fundamentals of democracy—who clings to the principle that a people are entitled to elect those who govern them and make their laws—to be ashamed that this situation has evolved. It is not just a democratic deficit, but undemocratic plundering of the Northern Ireland statute book by the EU.

These are not incidental matters or trifling issues. They are the laws that deal with customs, general trade, goods, motor vehicles, cosmetics, toys, electrical equipment, textiles, medical devices, pesticides, waste, and food hygiene, ingredients and marketing. They cover 13 different areas of law dealing with food alone. They are the laws that deal with disease and with animals—with the breeding, welfare and identification of animals. Thirty-four different diktats of the EU govern all of that.

[Ms Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I appreciate the hon. and learned Gentleman’s passion. He also needs to be honest with this Chamber that the laws he is talking about include human rights laws, and the basic, equal treatment of everybody in Northern Ireland. His legislation would rip up the very foundation of democracy, which is that everybody is equal. Does he not need to be honest with this Chamber that the 300 laws he is talking about include equal human rights?

[Jim Allister]

I will be absolutely honest with this Chamber, and to be absolutely honest with this Chamber, the hon. Lady is not addressing the issue as it emerges. I will deal with the impact of article 2 of the protocol. I want nothing more for my constituents than the same rights that the hon. Lady’s constituents have, be they human rights, the right to make the laws of our land, or any other rights. I ask for no privilege, but I certainly do not accept any detriment. That is the point here.

[Ms Creasy]

The hon. and learned Gentleman and I share a common concern, then. My constituents in Walthamstow do benefit from the protection of their human rights, because we are still members of the European Court of Human Rights. Indeed, equal access to those human rights is what the Good Friday agreement was based on. The effect that his legislation would have on article 2 of the Windsor framework would breach those principles, so if it went through, would there not be less of a connection between constituents here in England and constituents in Northern Ireland?

[Jim Allister]

I respectfully and utterly disagree. As part of the United Kingdom, we are all subject to the Human Rights Act 1998. The Human Rights Act is what fundamentally gives the hon. Lady’s constituents the rights that they have in that sphere, and she would lose nothing by losing the control of the foreign court of the European Court of Justice.

I am listing examples of the 300 areas of law that have been purloined by the EU in its sovereignty grab over Northern Ireland. I mentioned the 34 different diktats on animals. We have even reached the point in Northern Ireland where, under these arrangements, our cattle can no longer bear a UK ear tag. They now have to have a specified European Union ear tag. That is but an illustration of how absurd and utterly wrong and offensive it is that the right to make the laws in our own country has been surrendered to a foreign power.

All those 300 areas are set forth in annex 2 of the protocol or, as it is now more kindly called, the Windsor framework. Look at annex 2, look at the hundreds of laws—289 of them which now have been removed from the ambit of the lawmaking of this House or the lawmaking of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

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[Jim Allister]

The whole purpose of this Bill is to restore equilibrium and to get us to a point at which we have a sensible relationship based upon mutual respect, not on the grabbing of the sovereignty, one from the other. That is where we have got to. The hon. Member may not like to face up to it, but a whole raft of jurisprudence and lawmaking has been removed from within the reach of this United Kingdom and placed within the control of a foreign body, and that is not the basis for a sustainable solution.

[Ms Creasy]

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

[Jim Allister]

I have given way quite often, so I am going to make some progress.

That is why what I regard as the two liberation clauses in my Bill, clauses five and two, exist. They are the clauses that will free the whole United Kingdom, and Northern Ireland in particular, from this malevolent situation in which a huge portion of our laws are made not by ourselves but by others. That is very important. I have spent a lot of time in this debate talking about the constitutional import of all this, and that is very important, because it is that which gives certainty and assurance to any part of this United Kingdom. However, before I leave that issue, I remind the House that, because of the protocol arrangements, our Supreme Court had to rule that article VI of our Acts of Union, which guaranteed unfettered trade access between and within all parts of the United Kingdom, stand in suspension. There cannot be a higher authority than the Supreme Court to demonstrate that a key component of the very Acts of Union that makes this Union is in suspension, and if the cause of suspension is the protocol or the Windsor framework, then no one who believes in that Union should be sanguine or at ease with that.

There are also economic consequences. Before Brexit, Northern Ireland had an economy that was very integrated with the rest of the United Kingdom. It had the free, unfettered flow of goods one way and the other, as we had and would still have from Birmingham to London or Edinburgh. We had exactly that.

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[Jim Allister]

This Bill is prospective in its tone and purpose. It is about going forward. It is about solving the problem that has been put upon us. The hon. Member says, “Oh, let’s reset.” For some, of course, that means, “Let’s rejoin.” That is a matter for those who are advocating for it, but it is certainly not where I would like to see this United Kingdom go.

Yes, we need to reset, but we need to reset on the basis that Brexit is for all, not just for some. When we reset on that basis, the Government will not have me constantly raising these issues, because I will have the equal citizenship that has been denied to me and my constituents by these arrangements. Fundamentally, this is an equal citizenship issue. The thought that they are being treated differently, by being denied the equal citizenship of the rest of the United Kingdom, is quite appalling and insulting to many people in Northern Ireland.

Article 2 of the protocol has been mentioned in an intervention. The Government said a couple of nights ago that they will appeal the findings in one of the cases in Northern Ireland, although, listening to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, I think it is a pretty half-hearted appeal. Article 2 shows us that it is not just about trade. That was the initial selling point of the protocol, “Oh, it is only about trade,” but now we have discovered, through article 2, that it has a most pervasive effect on all sorts of things.

Legislation in the last Parliament has been overturned in its application in Northern Ireland. Why? Because of article 2. Now, whether we liked or disliked the Rwanda Bill is not the point. The point is that our High Court and Court of Appeal have ruled that the provisions of the Rwanda Bill cannot be operated in Northern Ireland. Why? Because of article 2.

Why is that? Because article 2 subjects Northern Ireland to the EU’s human rights provisions, not the UK’s human rights provisions. Protections that exist for asylum seekers under EU law therefore prevent the measures from operating. It is not about the debate of the merits or de-merits; it is about the constitutional fact that a Bill of this House, the sovereign will of that time of this supposedly sovereign Parliament, could not be implemented in a part of the United Kingdom because of the supremacy of EU law.

[Ms Creasy]

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

[Jim Allister]

No, I will finish my point. That is the fundamental issue here. We also had it on the legacy Bill. Again, it is not about the merits or the de-merits of the legacy Bill, much of which I abhorred; it is about the principle that our courts in this United Kingdom rule. The provisions of this Parliament—the sovereign will of this Parliament—are overridden by the laws of a foreign jurisdiction. That is the fundamental issue of sovereignty at stake here. That is why clause 2 will address the import of article 2 by making it something that cannot be given effect in domestic law.

[Ms Creasy]

I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. I hope he will recognise that it is not laughter on the Government Benches, but bemusement at the inconsistency. He opines about his anger that a third party can make law in Northern Ireland. Many of us tried to untangle the inconsistencies in the Rwanda legislation. The right hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) and I tried in vain to raise it with the previous Government. The critical issue was the right to remedy and the rights it gave people in Northern Ireland to petition a third party if they thought their Government was overbearing on their own basic rights. The hon. and learned Gentleman has himself used those rights: he has chosen to go to the Supreme Court and that is why we are here today. He has not chosen to go to the Court in Strasbourg—that would be his right and I would support him in doing so—but why would he deny the right to remedy to the rest of his fellow residents of Northern Ireland, as the Bill would, when he says he thinks it was wrong for that right to be protected by the European Court of Human Rights in the first place?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. I remind Members that it is up to the Member who is on their feet whether they want to accept an intervention.

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[Ms Creasy]

Importantly, this House was charged, along with the Irish Government, to uphold the Good Friday agreement. In any legislation that comes along, it is right and proper that we ask how to do that, alongside our colleagues across in Ireland. This legislation touches on so many elements of that agreement, so today’s debate is also about us doing the important job that we pledged to do all those years ago, to improve and maintain peace and stability in Northern Ireland.

[Peter Dowd]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I would be the first to admit that we do not always get these things right—whoever does? What we have to do is try, try and try again, and attempt to do our best in good faith. I will come back to that in a moment.

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[Peter Dowd]

I will touch on that a little later.

[Ms Creasy]

I wish I could understand—perhaps my hon. Friend can help me out with this. If, on the one hand, the European Union is a source of colonisation that has this disrespect towards the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, but, on the other hand, as part of a trade agreement we would simply trust each other to mutually enforce each other’s rules without any level of oversight, at what point do we start trusting these colonisers, as opposed to recognising that as part of an international trade treaty, we both have to stick to the same set of rules and see them upheld?

[Peter Dowd]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. At the end of the day, whether the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim and I like it or not, and I do, they are allies in virtually the biggest trading area—in fact, it is the largest—in the world, but I accept that Members have concerns. I am not trying to deny that, and I am not trying to demean them or push them under the carpet.

I also do not want to revisit the pre-referendum process. It is unavailing at this stage to rehash or regurgitate the arguments, warnings, finger pointing, claims, vilifications, passions and tensions that at times dominated the debate in the lead-up to and during the last weeks of the referendum campaign, but the situation we face is a direct result and consequence of that decision—of that, in my view, there is no doubt. I believe it is fair to say that personalities, rather than policies, often dominated the discussions and debates at the time. I also believe that, at times, high-politics issues around sovereignty, self-determination and other factors came into play. However, such matters are really symmetrical. That is the nature of the democratic debate and of the democratic debate that we have in this country, for better or worse.

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[Peter Dowd]

My stance is that if a person does not trust me in a democratic environment, they are perfectly entitled to go down to the ballot box and put an X against my opponent’s name, and I will respect them for doing so. That is the way we do it in this country.

[Ms Creasy]

Many of us are passionate about equal rights; that is why we have concerns about this legislation. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) would not engage on the subject of the impact that the Bill would have on human rights in Northern Ireland. We all know about our democratic rights. When we talk about equal citizenship, we are talking about the ability to be represented, about rights being upheld, and about a right of remedy. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill would rip up those rights in Northern Ireland by ripping up article 2 of the Windsor framework? The Bill would deny people in Northern Ireland rights that his constituents and mine have, because we have recourse to the European Court of Human Rights if we feel that an overbearing Government are breaching our rights. When it comes to equal citizenship in the Union, we must reject the Bill to uphold the rights of all.

[Peter Dowd]

My hon. Friend is right. I reject the Bill as respectfully as I can. Countries have to operate in an international rules-based system. That is the position that this country has taken on many occasions, even when the consequences for us have been dire. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim talked about foundations. I do not want to undermine the foundation of the rules-based system, trust and good faith. That is what I do not want to breach.

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[Ms Creasy]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech and it is one that he and I have lived and breathed as Members elected prior to 2024 and indeed prior to 2019, when the legislation at the heart of this matter was constructed in this place. We were on the Opposition Benches at the time and we all had to look at the concept of international relations and what would happen because of the Brexit votes. It was striking that the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) promoting this legislation talked as if that had never happened. We have been there before in all of this. There are no perfect solutions; that is part of the challenge that Brexit created for all of us. But in looking at what we do next, understanding that breaching international protocols has consequences is as important as thinking about what we do when we breach those international protocols, as we did with Brexit.

[Peter Dowd]

My hon. Friend makes a really important and fair point. We have to be very careful in this area when we have international obligations, and we have to be even more cautious when we are dealing with the situation that we found ourselves in given the context of the Belfast agreement.

I am drawing to a close, Members will be pleased to know, but it is worthwhile exploring the concept in a little more detail, because as I said, it goes to our position as a custodian. The circumstances in which we can depart from obligations are fairly clear: for instance, by mutual agreement—that is unsurprising—or implied right to withdraw. Neither of those is the case in this situation. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman thinks they should be, but I do not believe that they are.

Can we say that the treaty or agreement is no longer in place due to agreed time limits or sunset clauses? The answer to that question is no. Has the other side materially breached the treaty or the agreement, which would in turn absolve us of our obligations? Well, I do not think that applies either. What about our ability to carry out the agreement because of the “disappearance or destruction” of an object crucial to the operation of the treaty? That get-out clause does not exist, either; well, not that I am aware. In fact, the Windsor framework is protected by the Vienna convention on treaties, as was brought out during the statement that I referred to.

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[Gavin Robinson]

That is a fair point, and illustrates the requirement to honour the agreement—supported by the Minister and her Labour colleagues back in February—to eradicate routine checks within the UK internal market system. Does that deal with all the issues? No, it does not. Does it deal with what is in the red lane? No, it does not. Does it deal with the constitutional impurity of the overarching framework? No, it does not. But is it a step forward? Does it remove the frustration of my constituents and those of the hon. Member for Belfast South and Mid Down (Claire Hanna), who does not share my constitutional outlook? Yes, it does, and it should have been delivered in October.

The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim has also included in the Bill aspects on customs and parcels—another commitment made back in February and supported by the Labour Government. It was to be implemented in October this year, but they delayed it. The Minister and Members should know that we did not get overly exercised by the delay, because we recognise that it will be implemented by the end of the financial year. However, owing to the practicalities, the fact that attention was diverted because of the general election and all the rest, it did not happen in October. It is happening, which is good, but it is being done in a way that recognises the overarching imposition that we have from relationships that are totally unnecessary.

If the business run by the constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) is bringing in thread, wool and felt from Etsy to make craft, I defy any Member to stand up and indicate how that will have a material impact on the integrity of the single market. I defy any Member to stand up and give me an example—other than from “The Lord of the Rings”—of where a tree has come from GB to NI and been planted, and has then got up and walked across the border. It does not happen, yet we are told that sending a tree from Stranraer to Belfast would destroy the sanitary and phytosanitary integrity of the single market. It is a nonsense.

We are having to live with, and try to work through, the practical solutions to the overarching imposition that this Parliament agreed to, in spite of the concerns raised by people like me who were here during the Brexit years, as the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy) was. We raised concerns, but we were ignored. So when people stand up in 2024 and say, “Why are we still talking about an issue that started in 2016?”, it is because Members on both sides of the House did not listen to the warnings, the concerns, and the opportunities for compromise and agreement. Moreover, in repeating the same approach today, we are storing up greater potential for frustration in the future.

[Ms Creasy]

rose—

[Dr Gardner]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Gavin Robinson]

I will not give way to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Dr Gardner), because I am giving way to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy).

[Ms Creasy]

The right hon. Gentleman actually knows that I have a lot of sympathy for his frustrations, because none of us should ever say there is a perfect solution to the challenges that he presents. That was always why many of us were concerned about the idea of Brexit, but we know that Brexit has happened. Once it happened, it created a series of problems. Does he recognise that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat that he is setting out, and that this legislation actually takes us back to those old arguments?

By working together in this United Kingdom Parliament, we could look at how we get a better SPS deal, and at how we deal with the problems that the border operating model has created, so that all our constituents can benefit. We cannot go backwards; Brexit has happened and created all these problems. Those who advocated for it may wish to reflect on that, but we can go forward by trying to tease out better solutions. They will not be perfect, but they could be better. This legislation is not the solution, but I will offer a hand of friendship across the Chamber to find better solutions, if he is game.

[Gavin Robinson]

I will not respond to the hon. Lady’s last line; I will leave it to others to determine. She and I have engaged with each other—sometimes helpfully, and sometimes crossly—for years. When there are opportunities to work together to benefit my constituency or anybody else’s in the United Kingdom, I will do it. What I am actually doing at the moment is sharing agreements that were reached. She and her colleagues voted for them, yet we are still waiting for their implementation.

Let me give another one: an agreement outlined in “Safeguarding the Union” required a labelling regime across the United Kingdom. The reason for that was that there were no cost implications or benefits for businesses in Scotland, England and Wales if they simply chose not to supply our market in Northern Ireland. We have heard every hue and cry from drinks manufacturers and food manufacturers across the United Kingdom, who have said that this is costly and will cause them difficulty, yet Asda, Sainsbury’s and Tesco simply put it on their best-before date line. It costs them nothing, but what does it ensure? No divergence of trade within our own country. What does it ensure? Access to the Northern Ireland market and the removal of a disincentive.

What have we heard? The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has no interest in honouring the very aspect of the agreement that Labour supported back in February. It is now saying, “Yes, we will take the power, but we will not use it, unless—”. Unless what? It is repudiating a commitment from an agreement that it supported, but it will not say what is the trigger point. At what point is it OK for it to step in? At what point should Northern Ireland be disenfranchised before our sovereign Government and our sovereign Parliament will take steps to protect the consumer interests of the people of Northern Ireland? We do not know, but what we do know is that even when they have been prepared to engage in discussions that are of practical benefit to the people of Northern Ireland to resolve these issues—and Labour supported those—there has not been full and faithful implementation. It is not governed by the Vienna convention, but we are not seeing that full and faithful implementation.

[Gavin Robinson]

My right hon. Friend is entirely correct. What have we achieved over the last five years? A game, and not a very enjoyable game, of whack-a-mole, for it is about as strategic as whack-a-mole. An issue comes up involving the VAT margin schemes for second-car salesmen; we find a solution. Then another issue pops up, and another, and another. Whack-a-mole! That is the best strategic approach that this Government, and the previous Government, have adopted to deal with issues that are affecting us because of the decision taken back in 2019.

I remember the parliamentary discourse about the quest for agreement, but I know this. When the previous Prime Minister, Boris Johnson—[Interruption.] Just let me finish. No need for your wee quips. When Boris Johnson engaged with this issue, in respect of the protocol, he went to the Wirral for a walkabout in a wedding venue with Leo Varadkar, and became smitten with Leo. He ditched the democratic consent principles in section 4(5) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to which the hon. and learned Gentleman has referred. It was always part of the preceding arrangements that a consent vote in Northern Ireland would adhere to the consent principles in the Belfast agreement, and Boris Johnson ditched them.

In “Safeguarding the Union”, there was a commitment to remove and repeal a legacy provision in section 10(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, on having due regard to an all-island economy—a commitment that Labour supported, but now repudiate because it is in “Safeguarding the Union”. Let me remind the House that it is only in “Safeguarding the Union” because it features in the Windsor framework. Much of the approach from the Government Benches seems to amount to “We cannot achieve anything with the European Union unless we demonstrate our trust and our integrity—or our servitude!—to the European Union.” Paragraph 53 of the Windsor framework indicates very clearly that there is no need to have a legal due regard to an all-island economy that does not exist. Anyone who stands up here today and talks about their full-throated support for the Windsor framework should read what paragraph 53 has to say about the all-island economy. It is a matter of fact that we do not have an all-island economy; we have strands within our economy that operate on a cross-border basis in the context of two legal jurisdictions, two tax jurisdictions, two currency jurisdictions, two VAT jurisdictions and two regulatory jurisdictions, unless covered under annex 2 of the protocol. We do not have an all-island economy. It is a superfluous piece of legislation that is drawn out of the joint report from 2017, and it should go. It should go because I say so; it should go because it was agreed under the Windsor framework, which is quickly forgotten and ignored.

We have talked about article 2 in this debate. No one on this side of the Chamber is indicating that we should leave, through this argument, the European convention on human rights, nor that we should replace the Human Rights Act 1998, which embeds those commitments in our domestic legislation. The argument being raised on article 2 of the Windsor framework is that what has been presented as an international treaty, an agreement and a resolution on trade is impacting and frustrating the ability of this sovereign Parliament because of how the courts in Northern Ireland are interpreting the provisions on myriad areas outside trade.

Immigration is a classic example. The hon. Member for Walthamstow was right that we worked on this and we talked about this, but let me be very clear: whenever I stood up in this Chamber on behalf of my colleagues as our spokesman on home affairs to say that I would not vote for the Illegal Migration Act 2023, it was not because I did not think there was an issue with immigration. I do. It was not because I was ill-prepared to support Government in their endeavours. I was prepared to do so. I said this in this Chamber and my colleagues supported me: it was because, though the Government said that the provisions would apply in Northern Ireland, we were indicating that they would not.

The very same people who told me that the immigration legislation would apply in Northern Ireland launched a leadership campaign on the back of the arguments I was making afterward. We were right, but it is wrong that a trading agreement should have any impact whatever on the ability of this sovereign Parliament to set a uniform immigration policy across the whole United Kingdom. It was wrong then, and I am glad that the Secretary of State on Wednesday night indicated that that is a ground of appeal that the Government are bringing forward, because it is wrong.

[Ms Creasy]

rose—

[Gavin Robinson]

I hope, if I agree to allow the hon. Member for Walthamstow to intervene once more, and once more only, that she will agree that it is right to sort that issue, too.

[Ms Creasy]

The right hon. Gentleman is right. He and I may disagree about how to resolve it though, which is what I want to ask him about so that I do not misunderstand him. That disagreement was about the right to remedy being removed from people in Northern Ireland seeking asylum; in other words, it was the right to petition to an external court to uphold your rights. This Bill removes the domestic legal effect of article 2 of the Windsor framework and breaches paragraphs 1 and 2 of article 4 of the EU-UK withdrawal agreement, which require that individuals be enabled “to rely directly” on the provisions of that treaty.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that is right? Many of us believe that there is a libertarian argument for a third-party court to uphold the rights of citizens, whether that relates to contract law and what they are sold or to their basic human rights. Is he saying that his resolution is that the right for citizens to petition a third party to protect themselves against the Government should be removed from the people of Northern Ireland?

[Gavin Robinson]

Our judiciary are independent from the Government as well, as she knows. At first instance, in the High Court in Northern Ireland, citizens can draw upon legal jurisprudence within the European system without needing to go to the final arbitrary appeal of a third party. She knows that. The hon. Lady and I have parsed the course on many occasions. Despite all the suggestions made by Members, when challenged, that they are prepared to engage in the debate on this legislation or on the wider issues affecting Northern Ireland seriously, earnestly and with a willingness to resolve problems, there have been an awful lot of giggling Gerties and Cyril Sneers across the Chamber. There has been an awful lot of dismissal of concerns that have not been raised for the first time today—they have been raised on many, many occasions.

It is not just immigration that has been encroached because of article 2 of the Windsor framework, but legacy, which was the basis on which the Secretary of State raised this issue on Wednesday night. The legacy of our troubled past is an important issue, and it has absolutely nothing to do with international trade or trade within our own country—yet here is a case predicated on article 2 of the Windsor framework, which is frustrating this Parliament’s ability to legislate on that issue. That cannot be right. [Interruption.] Is the hon. Member for Belfast South and Mid Down seeking to intervene, or is she just waving supportively?

Northern Ireland Executive Formation

Stella Creasy Excerpts

Wednesday 31st January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am delighted to give her the assurance she seeks, because this announcement will reduce neither our ability to diverge, nor our commitment to do so should that be in the interests of the United Kingdom.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

Many of us welcome this day and hope that the restoration of Stormont is possible. If the Government are capable of removing trade barriers with the European Union for the constituents of Belfast, many of my constituents would like to see them do the same for them. May I press the Secretary of State on what he said about amending section 7A of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, because he will know that is the foundation of the practical application of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement that many of us hold dear. His Command Paper talks about the “pipeline of EU law”. Can he clarify for the avoidance of doubt that any amendment he makes will not see any regression at all in the rights upheld in that document, and in particular the rights afforded to every single member of the communities in Northern Ireland in the wording of the Good Friday agreement and under the European convention on human rights?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Yes, I absolutely can.

Northern Ireland

Stella Creasy Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Yes, I do believe that, and I thank my hon. Friend for making the point.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State is making a powerful case about democratic scrutiny. In that spirit, will he confirm that in order to support the Windsor agreement, he will use his powers as Secretary of State to retain all the existing EU law that would otherwise be deleted by the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill by the end of this year? The European Union has written to us today warning us that if he does not do that, the agreement will be in doubt. This is not to do with the Stormont brake; it is the existing legislation that will be deleted by the sunset clause. The Secretary of State has the power to retain it. Is he going to do so, in order to support this legislation?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I am afraid I have not seen that letter; I know nothing of it. I believe that the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill will do a good job of work for the whole of the United Kingdom.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Stella Creasy Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I can give a brief update. Indeed the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) tabled amendments on that matter earlier, so I believe she might want to come in at this point, and then I should be able to answer.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is now 1,134 days since this House passed the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 and 973 days since the Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2020 were laid to give effect to it. Women in Northern Ireland have been waiting patiently for safe, legal and local abortion services. Can the Secretary of State tell us how many more days he thinks it is acceptable to ask them to wait, now that he has the powers and the money to deliver those services? Would 90 days be enough, for example?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank both the hon. Lady and my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller) for their questions. I can give some clarity on this now, and later the Minister of State will be able to give a bit more detail. My officials have been working closely with the Northern Ireland Department of Health and I have instructed the permanent secretary to commission abortion services in Northern Ireland. I am also ensuring that the required funding is allocated for those services, and funding will be ring-fenced in the Northern Ireland budget, as set out by my written ministerial statement of last week.

That will mean that, in line with my statutory duty, health and social care trusts will have both the assurance of commissioned service and the guarantee of funding for that service, allowing them to recruit and plan for the full roll-out of services that this House decided women should have access to. The hon. Member for Walthamstow asked about dates. This is a service that is sometimes controversial, but also unbelievably important, and appropriate recruitment and training of staff needs to take place. Her amendment, which I know is a probing amendment, mentions 28 days, but I hope I can demonstrate to her that recruitment is already starting and training is going to start.

The hon. Lady also mentioned the period of 90 days. I would like to think that most services will be at least en route to being delivered by that point in time, but, if I may, I intend to write to those hon. Members who might be interested, maybe on a monthly basis, to give continual updates so that the hon. Lady and my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke can see what is happening and when.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I rise to make what I hope is, in comparison, a relatively brief speech, but I have some questions about how this Bill will work. I hope that will meet your requirements, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I think it is important that we ask these questions and that we centre in this debate the people of Northern Ireland. We have already talked a lot about the institutions, the challenges with the protocol and, indeed, Brexit, as well as about who needs to be flexible—this Government, the European Union—but I think it is absolutely key to talk about the public in Northern Ireland and how they are affected by this legislation. I say that as somebody who has now lobbied five separate Secretaries of State about Executive formation legislation.

Members who were here before 2019 will remember the last incarnation of this legislation, which led to the situation in which we finally had legal abortion in Northern Ireland. It is with the provisions of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 and how this Bill will affect that in mind that I want to ask these questions. As I said earlier, it has now been 1,134 days since we passed that legislation, and this House took a decision that we wanted to support access at local level that is safe and legal for women in Northern Ireland. We agreed subsequently, in the abortion regulations in 2020—it is 973 days since they were passed—that there should be a service on request up to 12 weeks and that beyond that, up to 24 weeks, two medical professionals could certify that a woman should have an abortion if there was a greater risk of mental harm or physical harm if she did not, which is very similar to England and Wales.

I raised that because one thing to remember in all of these debates is that decriminalisation and legalisation do not mean deregulation. Indeed, the legislation that we have seen flowing from the 2019 Act absolutely sets out how access to abortion should be provided. The challenge for many of us, though, is that during all that time, that has not happened. Time and again, we have seen the 2 million women in Northern Ireland denied that right. Abortion might be legal, but it is not accessible. Indeed, in July this year we heard that a woman in Belfast who had suffered from pre-term premature rupture of membranes was told that she had to travel to Liverpool. We have seen many more not able to access pills.

The reason we have been given for that through the last three years is basically a stand-off between the Northern Ireland Health Department and the UK Government, with the Government upholding the human rights of women in Northern Ireland set out in the 2019 Act. In the last three years, women in Northern Ireland have directly suffered because the previous incarnation of the Bill had not been delivered. All of us in the House recognise that it is one thing to win an argument—it might be another thing to win an amendment—but delivery and implementation are where change happens.

[Mr Steve Baker]

The hon. Member has won the argument, and I can tell her that we are making enormous progress towards delivering abortion. The Government can confirm that services will be commissioned in Northern Ireland before the Bill passes through the other place.

[Stella Creasy]

I thank the Minister for that confirmation. I hope he will join me in paying tribute to all those women in Northern Ireland who have continued to work on the issue, championing their sisters and neighbours—those who need these services—through the political dysfunction and patriarchal discrimination that has led to a situation where we might have decided that something was legal through a previous incarnation of the Bill, but it was not accessible.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

rose—

[Stella Creasy]

I happily give way to one of the many former Ministers, in addition to Secretaries of State, who has worked with us on this issue.

[Mr Walker]

I join the hon. Member in paying tribute to those people who have campaigned on this issue. They have been right to raise the disparity of rights. If we believe in the United Kingdom, there ought to be that equality of rights. I am pleased to hear what my hon. Friend the Minister said, because it is frustrating that the House can pass laws that do not get enacted in such a way. It will be an important step for Parliament to take to ensure that that law is respected across the whole of the United Kingdom.

[Stella Creasy]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I know that he was frustrated by it. That is why I am speaking today. We have seen the frustration, and for three years women in Northern Ireland have seen multiple letters traded between Departments but little change. It is worth reflecting that even during the pandemic, women from Northern Ireland were still travelling to England and Wales, with 161 doing so in 2021 compared with 371 in 2020.

It is welcome to hear what Ministers have to say. We helped to give those women a voice in 2019, and through the Bill we want to see those women given delivery in 2022. I have some specific questions that I hope the Minister will be able to address. The Government have powers in the Bill to direct commissioning. We recognise that public services need to continue. Those services include healthcare and—let us be clear—abortion is healthcare. Those who have sought to threaten that have not protected devolution; they have simply harmed women, and in particular women from refugee and minority community backgrounds who have been the least able to take advantage of an ability to travel in the United Kingdom.

Previous Ministers have told me that, even under those powers, one of the operational actions is for women to continue to travel. I hope the Minister will recognise that that is not a satisfactory response, particularly when dealing with incredibly tragic cases in which, frankly, travelling creates a health risk. Will he set out how that will be dealt with? I recognise that there is a challenge with staffing and that we are asking Ministers to move quickly, although some of us might reflect that, in three years, it is not unrealistic to have asked for priority to be given to training and recruitment, because the direction of travel that I was told was coming by previous Secretaries of State should have been translated across. Will he set out how the Government will ensure that the service will be properly staffed not just in one or two locations but across Northern Ireland? We know that there are travel difficulties within Northern Ireland, so it is not enough to say to women, “The service that you might need does exist, but it is in a particular location.” We absolutely want to see those services start, but ultimately, when we talk about a safe, legal and local service, it really does need to be local, just as we seek similar provision for our constituents here in England, Wales and Scotland.

Another issue we have seen, which I hope this funding can help address, is that there are very clear reports that some are using the online nature of seeking guidance about where services are to cause harm. What I mean is that some people are using advertising, particularly on things like Google, to encourage women to go to services that are not about abortion, but are trying to deter women from having an abortion. One of the critical issues is how women will know how to access these services. Ministers have said that they hope that services will be available on the ground within the next 90 days, particularly services for between 10 weeks and 12 weeks. We know that access to pills is patchy, but access to medical procedures is non-existent. If women are seeking information about those services and how to access them, under this legislation, what powers will the Government have and what action will they take to make sure that those women are getting information about the right services—the actual abortion services—if they make that choice?

Finally, I want to make a plea to the Minister: there is still a stigma, as I know he understands. Contrary to what might have been said in this place, there is very clear evidence that the mood of people in Northern Ireland has shifted on this issue, as the mood of the people in Ireland shifted following the “repeal the eighth” campaign. There is widespread support for the provision of these new services and frustration at the delay that has taken place, but if those services are to survive, we need to address the stigma about working to support women who wish to have an abortion, and also having an abortion. I hope Ministers will talk about what they will do while we wait to see whether the Executive can be reformed, but also about what they will do to tackle that stigma, so that we can get the staffing and ensure that when a woman in Northern Ireland exercises her human right to choose to have an abortion, she does not face any further barriers.

As we have said, making laws—whether in this place or in devolved Administrations—requires more than just passing a Bill. It requires implementation and delivery, and the past three years have been a story of not delivering—of not meeting the promise that we made to those women in Northern Ireland. In passing this legislation today, and delivering on the work that has been done and the promise of that previous legislation, we have to show our homework, and that homework is both logistical and cultural. I hope Ministers recognise where these questions are coming from. They will have my support in working this through, and I welcome the words of the Secretary of State when he talks about this being an important provision. However, it is necessary to seek detail now, because we have had five different Secretaries of State, so many different letters and so little progress. The women in Northern Ireland who need this service deserve to be heard.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Following the next speaker, we will move on to the wind-ups. I call Jim Shannon.

Northern Ireland Elections

Stella Creasy Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Yes.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I think we all agree that life and progress cannot stop for people in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State says he will take powers over public service delivery. He will recall the statement he made on 24 October, in which he accepted responsibility for ensuring that women in Northern Ireland can access their human right to a safe, legal and local abortion. He said it was for the Northern Ireland Executive to fund that service.

Women in Northern Ireland have now had three years of various Secretaries of State exchanging letters, rattling and saying that, somehow, this is going to happen, yet it has not happened. Given that the Secretary of State has these powers, can he now tell us the date on which a woman in Northern Ireland, if she so chooses, will be able to access a safe, legal and local abortion?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I cannot give the hon. Lady that date, because a bit more needs to be done. I have said that I hope to meet the commissioners of services in the next week or so, and I will be writing to the directors of finance in the trusts to ensure, hopefully, that the money flows so they can start to build up the required services.

Abortion in Northern Ireland

Stella Creasy Excerpts

Thursday 25th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

My right hon. Friend highlights the point that the simple answer is too many. To be frank, any single case is one too many, particularly if we think about the circumstances through the pandemic, and I outlined a couple of harrowing examples a few moments ago. Having to travel across to mainland Great Britain without the network of family support that one would normally hope to have when going through this kind of procedure with medical support is just a harrowing thought, and some of the stories are just too emotive to do justice to or to outline here today. We have to ensure that that does not continue and that people can get the support they need close to home, locally in Northern Ireland.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op) [V]]

I thank the Secretary of State for his efforts to uphold the human rights of all women in the United Kingdom. The Department of Health in Northern Ireland has said that, because this is a new service, it will need additional funding to provide it. Will the Secretary of State confirm that his officials have spoken to the Department of Health and that the funding will be provided, so cost will not be a barrier to ensuring that the women and girls of Northern Ireland can access abortion should they wish to do so?

[Brandon Lewis]

We are talking to the Department of Health all the time, and we will obviously continue to—I myself have spoken to the Minister of Health consistently. This is something that the Department has the funding for. There is a substantial block grant for the Executive to make their decisions, and we got that £900 million uplift in the spending review just last year. The Department of Finance outlined just a few weeks ago the underspend on last year, so there is no issue with money. At the moment, there is obviously a substantial cost for people who are having to travel from Northern Ireland to mainland Great Britain, in a way that is financially inappropriate, let alone unjustifiable morally and in healthcare terms.

So this is something that the Northern Ireland Executive can provide and that the Department of Health should be moving on with. We will continue to work with them to ensure that that is done, giving them whatever support we can, but, ultimately, I think we would all much rather see this being provided and worked through by the Department of Health locally in Northern Ireland than this Parliament having to take the action we are taking now.

Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Stella Creasy Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2020 General Committees

[Mrs Miller]

Again, I thank the hon. Gentleman, and we will not fall out over this, but I will gently remind him that it has been widely accepted that the reason the case was not accepted either in Northern Ireland or in the Supreme Court just over the road was because of a technical error in the drafting of the legislation when the standing of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission was drawn up.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

It may be important for the record that we recognise that there have been many human rights cases involving abortion, Northern Ireland and the ECHR, and other cases have indeed ruled that there are breaches that need to be addressed, but they recognised that this Parliament was seeking to act. If, for completeness, we are to recognise that, yes, some rulings have been dismissed on technicalities, there have been others, for example, where the court has ordered compensation to be paid to women who have suffered injustices as a result of the law, and it is therefore right that we act to address it.

[Mrs Miller]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, and I think the Minister needs in his summing-up to give some assurances to hon. Members here today that there will be clarity for people in Northern Ireland and that we will not continue to have this fear culture, bringing a lack of clarity for women, doctors and medics on the ground, not knowing whether the law that has been passed here is, as we have said it is today, the law of the land. He has to make that crystal clear.

To echo what the Minister said earlier, to paint this as a liberalisation of abortion law is not consistent with my reading of what is being put forward. Introducing the 12-week limit is consistent with the Republic of Ireland, and given the cross-border issues, I am sure the Minister thought carefully when he put that provision in place. The remainder of the changes are more or less consistent with the rest of the Abortion Act 1967, as it applies in England and Wales, and consistent with the regulations surrounding the use of medical abortion pills, particularly that women now have the option to take a second pill as part of the treatment at home. It is crucial that we communicate these details to women who will be trying to navigate something that is, perhaps, being obscured to them in the way it is being reported.

I echo the tributes made by the hon. Member for Bristol South to the women who have had the courage to bring cases, to speak out to Select Committees, including the Select Committee on Women and Equalities, which I chaired at that time, and to talk about their experiences, to ensure that people knew in full about the suffering they had gone through.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stella Creasy]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David, as we debate these important regulations. This is an opportunity for this House to come together an uphold the human rights of all UK citizens. I start my contribution by paying tribute to the work that many have done to get us to this point. I thank the Minister, who has been patient and diligent and listened to all sides of the debate on this matter before arriving at these regulations. I also thank the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South, who has been an incredibly diligent and thoughtful advocate for the importance of getting these regulations right. I thank my colleague and hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North, who has been a stalwart campaigner for the right of a woman to have the equal right of a man to choose what happens to her body—unfortunately, this is still a contested issue in 2020. I thank the former Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), who gave a brilliant speech earlier today about the things she heard and the work that Committee did.

Above all, I thank the many voices from Northern Ireland who have been able to be heard over the past couple of years, in this place and outside, as a result of us as a Parliament taking on something that, for years, people have said was too difficult to deal with. This has been a difficult debate, and I recognise there are strongly held opinions on all sides of the House about this matter, but because we put it in the “too difficult” box, we have denied the voices of thousands of women in Northern Ireland who have been speaking about their human rights. That has changed over the past couple of years, and I pay tribute in particular to the Alliance for Choice, the London Irish Abortion Rights Campaign, Amnesty International and Together for Yes, as well as women such as Sarah Jane Ewart, who have been incredibly powerful and brave in telling their story about the consequences of this legislation.

These regulations are needed because almost a year ago, this House recognised that it was important to repeal sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, which put having an abortion in the same category as child-stealing and using gunpowder to blow this place up. However, repealing those sections was only 50% of treating every single woman in the UK as an equal citizen. We need these regulations to clarify what the provision of abortion in Northern Ireland is. I stand with the hon. Member for North Down, who is very welcome in this place and has clearly stated the simple truth that not regulating for abortion—banning abortion—does not stop it happening, but means that it happens in an unsafe manner. It puts lives at risk.

We know that for generations, Northern Ireland has been exporting its need for abortion to the rest of the United Kingdom. We know women who have had to make that horrific journey under horrific circumstances: not just Sarah Jane Ewart, but thousands of women who have had to travel, if they can at all, because they do not want to continue an unwanted pregnancy. At the heart of this regulation is a very simple question: do we have the right to force a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy? If we say yes, then of course, we can stand up to those human rights organisations that have told us countless times over the years that we are torturing our own citizens—that is how they have described deciding for somebody else what happens to their body, in this most graphic way. That is why it is right that this place acted, and it is why I must respectfully disagree with the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings when he says that this is somehow illegal.

These regulations stem from that moment last year when we recognised our human rights obligations as a United Kingdom, and expressly said that devolution does not deny those rights to some women in the United Kingdom. Indeed, in that moment we were sticking to article 27 of the Vienna convention, which states that a party to a treaty

“may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty”

and paragraph 39 of CEDAW’s general recommendation on the core obligations of states, which says that states cannot use their delegated powers to absolve themselves of responsibility to all women. It is clear that for too long, this place has denied its responsibility to the women of Northern Ireland, and today’s regulations put that right. They do so in a sensitive and CEDAW-compliant manner, so that we treat the women of Northern Ireland with the respect we would wish for all women.

We are required to follow the ECHR, and it is right that this place deals with this issue, because it is our law—the Offences Against the Person Act 1861—that created these challenges in the first place. Whatever legislation the Northern Ireland Assembly wishes to bring forward on this matter, which it can do, it could not take action without dealing with that Act, so it is right that this place seeks to act—

[Sir John Hayes]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Stella Creasy]

I will, but I want to make reasonable progress, to allow the Minister time to answer some of the questions. I give way happily.

[Sir John Hayes]

I want to be clear about this. When the hon. Lady spoke on this subject in the House before the last election, she said clearly that the reason she was advocating what she was, was the absence of Stormont; were Stormont sitting, she would not do so. Now, she is making a completely contradictory argument, that Stormont should never have had the powers at all. If she thought that then, why did she not say so?

[Stella Creasy]

I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman appears to have listened to what I said in the House. If we are honest, in debates, it sometimes feels that that is not always the case for those on opposing sides. If he listened to what I said then—and what I say now—it was that devolution did not absolve us of our responsibility. Indeed, the requirements of the European Court of Human Rights cross-cut to Northern Ireland as part of the Good Friday agreement.

The right hon. Gentleman says that we have always devolved this but, I genuinely suggest to him, the absence of legislation on Northern Ireland was in 1967. That was before the 1998 Good Friday agreement, which enshrined the responsibility of this place to uphold the human rights of the people in Northern Ireland, leading to the creation of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, which sought to address this issue but, as we discussed, was not able to do so because of a technicality. Does he want to suggest that there is a clear demarcation? Furthermore, I have not yet heard him advocate that other forms of human rights such as on torture should also be delegated to Northern Ireland. We do not do that; we recognise that some rights are universal and that, collectively, we have a responsibility to uphold them.

My point last year was that for too long, because of the absence of the Assembly, this issue had not been addressed. I ask those who today say that we should not agree to the regulations, if not these regulations, where is the alternative? Now that the Assembly is up and running, it can come up with alternative proposals. As yet, it has not.

The risk is twofold: first, the continuation of the abuse of the human rights of the women of Northern Ireland, whereby they are forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy because there is no safe, legal and local service for them; and, secondly, in the absence of regulation, now that we have repealed sections 58 and 59—I agree with Government Members who made this point—there is a gap, a lacuna, in what services are provided that needs to be addressed.

If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to advocate devolution, he should advocate what CEDAW-compliant regulations the Northern Ireland Assembly should be coming up with, so that we may navigate this terrain of being part of the United Kingdom, of upholding our human rights obligations and of recognising the role of local institutions in identifying how those regulations are provided. He should not be saying simply, “Put it back in the ‘Too Difficult’ box—let’s not go there.”

Having said all that, it is important for us to look at the legislation, at the regulations before us, and I am sure that the Chair wishes me to do so. The regulations implement what polls in Northern Ireland have been telling us for some time: the vast majority of people do not consider this to be a criminal matter but a medical one, requiring medical regulation, which is what the regulations do. That is the view of both the MLAs and the broader public. However, there is common ground to be found: we need to find a medical way of moving forward.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I, too, pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend last summer to ensure that we are here today to discuss the regulations. Specifically, with the repeal of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 as relating to Northern Ireland, we are left with England and Wales still covered by that Victorian law that could send women to prison for life. I wondered whether she would care to comment. Having repealed those sections, the use of regulation to establish a framework for an abortion law that works for the 2020s and beyond is not beyond the wit of man or woman any more. The Abortion Act 1967 should also now be considered ripe for reform, in line with the reforms that we are seeing in Northern Ireland.

[Stella Creasy]

My hon. Friend knows that she has my full support as she makes the argument that our constituents in Hull and Walthamstow should also be treated with dignity. I am always mindful that abortion is the only medical procedure in which we deny the patient the opportunity to consent. Were we to apply the same rules to having a vasectomy, for example—that somehow two doctors should decide for people whether they were entitled to have such a procedure—I suggest gently that some in Committee would be equally affronted by the denial of their rights to make a choice about their own body. They would not want to be forced to continue something that they did not wish to do.

I am mindful of time and what the Minister has said. I will press him on a number of issues, because it is right that, now we have made this choice to uphold the human rights of women in Northern Ireland, we should ensure that the regulations can be enacted in real time, so that women no longer have to wait. The Minister himself said that the reality is still that people have to travel. There have been thousands of such women, since it was required in 2017 that women in Northern Ireland at least be allowed to come to the NHS in England and Wales, and not be charged despite being UK citizens paying taxes towards the costs of those services. I am conscious that the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings was slightly confused when he talked about home user abortion. In England and Wales people can now take both pills at home. It is important that we recognise that we have made some progress in trusting women to make choices over their own bodies.

If the bodies in Northern Ireland continue to refuse to commission for any gestation at all, as they are doing at the moment, does that count as a breach of the regulations? Will the Minister answer that explicit question for us? It is untenable, those decisions have been taken, and the regulations having been brought in, for women to be required to travel, when that is not an option for many of them. It is not just because of cost. They might be in abusive relationships or have other childcare commitments. That is not the safe, legal and local service that the House overwhelmingly voted to extend to all women in the United Kingdom. Is what I mentioned therefore considered a breach of the CEDAW determination that the previous situation in Northern Ireland was

“violence against women that may amount to torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment”?

Any form of regulation, I suspect, would not find favour with Members from some parties who are present today, because it would allow women to make the choice to have an abortion. However, if the regulation is not commissioned, what does the Minister expect to do to make sure that we are CEDAW-compliant, and what is the timescale for that? How long, essentially, are we to ask women in Northern Ireland to continue to wait before their rights are upheld? The right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings talked about asking for time to regulate. Frankly, the Northern Ireland Assembly now has the time to regulate, but it shows no sign of doing so. Without that, and with the determination not to commission, there are no regulations in force, with the possibility of being in breach.

The regulations say that it should be possible to get an abortion in Northern Ireland under 12 weeks without any grounds. Are we in breach of those regulations at the moment? At the moment, it is possible only for some women under 10 weeks to get access to a service. At 10 weeks and one day they cannot, because the service is not being commissioned. The Minister talked about a good faith defence for medics. Will he clarify what sorts of cases he believes that is intended to safeguard against, so that we can understand better the scenarios he believes possible?

Finally, we talked about the 12-to-24-week provisions and the fact that it is possible to have an abortion in Northern Ireland if doctors say that there is a risk to physical or mental health. That is not a provision available to women in Northern Ireland at the moment. It has not been commissioned. It is a very rare occurrence. Most abortions take place before 10 weeks and the women have made that choice. When abortions happen later it is usually because of horrifically tragic circumstances such as those that Sarah Jane Ewart pointed out, when it is discovered that a child will die at birth. If we do not pass the regulations we are asking women to be in that position, and requiring them to continue and give birth to a baby they know will die. I do not think anyone in the Room would want that to happen, so we must regulate. There must be provisions so that in the horrific circumstance when women who go for a sonogram are told their baby will not live we are with them rather than judging them; offering them support to make the choice they want to make—not to continue the torture—rather than telling them there is no alternative. Will the Minister clarify whether there is an appeals process and, if so, what it might be, for women denied an abortion between 12 and 24 weeks because two doctors refuse it?

I stand with the right hon. Member for Basingstoke who talked about the importance of information. Above all, now that we have reached this point—having had the difficult conversation and heard the voices, and having been given the opportunity to get the legislation right and get the regulations—a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy would be a travesty. People in Northern Ireland deserve respect and to understand what services they are entitled to. Will the Minister clarify information processes? What information will there be for people whose doctors decide that they do not want to take part in the process and how will we make sure that they are not forced by delay in service delivery to wait for a later stage of pregnancy? Three years ago, we made a promise to the women of Northern Ireland when we first started this conversation and first looked at their right to be able to travel here that we were not done. If we are honest, we are not done yet with these regulations. We are much further down that road, but there is still much more work to be done.

I know the Minister recognises that and wants to see this through. It is important today that we vote for these regulations and get further along that road, but it is also important that we do not give up on ensuring that what we talk about in this place—those rights, that equality of being able to manage our own bodies and our own choices—is extended to all our citizens.

I thank the Minister for the work he has done. I will be voting for these regulations, and I recommit myself to working with those woman and men on the ground in Northern Ireland, to help to ensure that their voices continue to be heard in this process, until we are all truly, equally able to exercise our own rights. Surely that is the best of human rights, and that is the best of democracy.

Abortion Regulations: Northern Ireland

Stella Creasy Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

I agree with my right hon. Friend, who speaks with considerable experience in these matters, from his time as a Minister and Chair of the Select Committee. As we have set out in our consultation response, it is important that wherever possible we make sure the outcomes of the regulations in Northern Ireland are aligned with the outcomes in the rest of GB. It is important both because it is the right thing to do fundamentally—as a Unionist I believe it is the right thing to do—and because the approach in the rest of the UK has been legally tested and found to be compliant with the relevant human rights law. For those reasons, he is right to make that point.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

We all recognise that this is a difficult issue for many and that there are strongly held views on all sides of this debate, but one reason the House stood up for the human rights of all women in the United Kingdom was that just because it was difficult did not mean their rights should be denied, and devolution does not absolve us of our responsibility to uphold the human rights of every UK citizen. I respect the Minister’s argument—[Interruption.] —as does my daughter—that human rights are at the heart of this and that the Assembly should come up with alternative proposals if it does not like the regulations, because not to propose regulations would mean further delay and possibly women making unsafe choices in Northern Ireland because there is not clarity about the services available to them.

I want to press the Minister on something he said. He recognises that travelling is not a sustainable option and that many women cannot travel—indeed, in the current crisis it is unacceptable. When we talk about these cases, let us also talk about the case of Sarah Jane Ewart, an incredibly brave woman who had to come forward. Her baby had a fatal foetal abnormality, and at the moment there is no provision to support anybody else in her tragic, horrific position in Northern Ireland. The Minister says he wants to see the Department of Health in Northern Ireland providing these services. What is his plan if the Northern Ireland Assembly continues to say it will not commission these services? How do we uphold the rights in CEDAW that we have said every woman in the United Kingdom is entitled to be covered by?

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. I recognise that, along with thanking the former Secretary of State, I can probably thank her for the fact that I am here answering this urgent question. It is important that we end the need to travel, which is what these regulations properly implemented should do. She will recognise that that cannot necessarily be done instantly, because of issues with facilities, training and other such things that my right hon. Friend the former Chair of the Select Committee has raised. We recognise that fact in continuing to fund and support travel in the interim. As I have said, however, we will work with the Department of Health in Northern Ireland, provide it with the support it needs and continue to engage with the relevant medical bodies to make sure that this process can be completed as quickly as possible. I join her in once again urging the Assembly to engage and support this actively in order to make sure we have a set of measures in place that can deliver for women and girls in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019

Stella Creasy Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend and colleague for raising that. He is absolutely right. The request was made and the Under-Secretary of State said that he would respond, but unfortunately that has not yet happened. That would have been immensely helpful for this debate tonight.

Even in England prior to 1967, back-street abortions were always illegal. Rather than acknowledging the point, however, the Northern Ireland Office has sought rather disingenuously to point to the Northern Ireland guidance as if it offered protection to pregnant women comparable to that of the law. The guidance, however, has no legal weight unless it is referring directly to statute, and for the most part it is merely saying what the NHS, which is under Government control, will do and making suggestions about what everyone else should do.

The suggestion that there is an appropriate substitute for the law is clearly not true and completely inappropriate, given the important matter at hand: women’s safety. While the Northern Ireland Office can encourage people to act in a particular way through guidance, it cannot require people to act.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way because he has raised this issue before. Let me try to be helpful to the Secretary of State by referring to the guidance that he has issued about this very point. It is simply not the case that there are no regulations. In particular, abortion pills are a prescription-only medicine, the sale and supply of which are unlawful without a prescription, and that is not affected by any of the changes that came into law last week.

The suggestion that somehow there is no regulation of access to abortion medication is misplaced. I understand that the hon. Gentleman has that concern, but if he reads the regulations and looks at the existing medical regulations about abortifacients, he will find that regulation is in place. I hope that the Secretary of State, who probably has not got round to writing the letter to the hon. Gentleman, will find that a helpful intervention.

[Jim Shannon]

I am very capable of reading the information. The information that I have is contrary to what the hon. Lady has just said.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I rise, as the Secretary of State might expect, to ask him another series of questions about the changes in the law regarding abortion in Northern Ireland, which he knows I feel very strongly about. This Act compelled the Secretary of State to act—from start to finish. A week ago, 50% of what the Act asked the Secretary of State to do came into law, which was to repeal sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. It has been mentioned already that there was a court case outstanding, and it is worth starting there and talking about the difference made by that 50% of the Act coming into law.

The case involved the mother of a then 15-year-old girl, who was in an abusive relationship. The mother bought her daughter abortion pills online to help her, but when she took her to the doctor was reported to the police under the legal duty to report. It is about removing that legal duty to report; it is not that people who continue to supply abortion pills and are not medically qualified will evade prosecution. It is worth reading into the record the words of that mother, who went into court the day after the legislation came into effect and saw the case against her, which had been hanging over her for so long, abandoned. She said:

“For the first time in six years I can go back to being the mother I was, without the weight of this hanging over me…every day…I am so thankful that the change in the law will allow other women and girls to deal with matters like this privately in their own family circle.”

She said that she could finally move on with her life.

We can debate all the technicalities of these issues, but fundamentally last week something of a magnitude beyond any of our individual comprehensions changed for so many people in Northern Ireland when that Bill became law—in that 50% repeal of the Offences Against the Person Act. And, yes, I think this place should welcome that, not least because the case of the mother I just spoke about shows the human impact of that piece of legislation from the 1800s hanging over the lives of women in Northern Ireland.

I am here this evening to ask the Secretary of State about his duty to finish the other 50% of this legislation, and to ask him what happens now. I share the concern that we need to clarify the regulations. I understand that there is scepticism from some about the existing regulations, and I pay tribute to the shadow Minister, who did a fantastic job of setting out all the existing regulations—and therefore the confidence that many people should have that this is not some free-for-all in Northern Ireland that has happened in the last week—but there is a case for clarifying what the regulations are. That case is being made not least by the doctors who have been writing to the Secretary of State asking for that clarification because, as of last Tuesday, they can prescribe abortion pills.

I think we would all recognise that had this place passed the 1967 legislation for abortion access in England and Wales by saying, “Well, we’re going to say that you can continue to have a back-street abortion, but you won’t be prosecuted if you go to A&E”, none of us would have accepted that as a reasonable position. And yet, at this point in time—because it is not clear how doctors in Northern Ireland can prescribe abortion pills to women in Northern Ireland who wish to use them—we are risking saying to women, “Continue buying them online and not being clear about which providers are safe, but at least now you won’t be prosecuted”, as the mother I described had to deal with for many years.

I would really welcome clarification from the Secretary of State about what he is doing with regard to the doctors who are writing to him asking him where they get the prescriptions from and how they make sure they can give safe advice. To be honest, asking women to travel is not a solution. In the past week, the only message we have been able to give to women in Northern Ireland who now wish to access their right to a safe, legal and local abortion is that they have to travel. If they have family commitments, if they are in abusive relationships or if they do not have the relevant travel documentation, that is not a solution for them.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

The hon. Lady said that the only advice to some would be to order these pills online. It is very important to outline that the medical advice is absolutely clear that it can be dangerous to take these types of pills without medical supervision. The case that she referred to was a case of abortion pills being procured by a mother for her child where there were complications resulting in her having to present. So, yes, I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady: there needs to be guidance in relation to this but we must also be responsible and say very clearly that we should not recommend the route of buying these types of pills online because people do not know what they are going to get.

[Stella Creasy]

I completely agree. What I am saying, therefore, is that the Secretary of State now has a responsibility to the women and girls in Northern Ireland who wish to be able to access this right to make sure that there is clarity about where they can get abortion pills prescribed by a medical professional. These changes were never about removing the medical component of abortion, but simply about recognising that it should be a medical rather than a criminal matter.

The Secretary of State will know from the letters that I have been writing to his Department that I am concerned that there has not been clarity for women and girls in Northern Ireland about their rights and how to access those rights in the past week. There needs to be more public information about how to access an abortion, alongside the work to make sure that they can access a safe abortion. He will know of the long-standing concerns that many of us have about the concept of public consultation. While he talks about both sides of the debate, he himself has been clear that what is up for debate is not whether abortion is available in Northern Ireland but how it happens. Many of us consider that to be a purely medical question. Indeed, the legislation required the Secretary of State to do this in line with the CEDAW––convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women—principles.

A week ago, the Secretary of State’s junior Minister—I am sorry, but I am not quite sure of his role—said that the consultation would be published on the following day. We are now a week on. We do not have any of the details of that consultation—what the Government believe they should consult on that meant that any consultation would be in line with the CEDAW principles and would not undermine what this House decided, which is that women in Northern Ireland should be able to access an abortion equally. The Secretary of State talks about consulting the widest range of stakeholders, but he will understand the concern that many of us have about bringing non-medical professionals into the provision of medical services, and, indeed, as the hon. Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) has highlighted, the importance of having proper medical engagement.

Let us be honest about this: there is no way a member of a Church community would have the same medical standing as, say, doctors or the royal colleges with regard to the specifics of how a medical procedure is provided. It is absolutely imperative that we have the details of what the Secretary of State thinks he is going to consult on and how he squares that with the CEDAW requirements, so that we can be confident that he is not opening a hornets’ nest when it comes to providing the other 50% of this legislation.

It is very important that we put to bed any suggestion that anything has changed in the time limits through what happened last week. The 1945 Act, which the shadow Minister mentioned, is still in place. That is very clear about not changing the viability provisions. People talk about abortions at five months, but that is not what is being talked about in Northern Ireland at all. If anything, modern medicine changes the concept of what viability is to perhaps something that people would consider to be even lower. But there is an issue when it comes to fatal foetal abnormalities and the Bourne judgment. Again, the CEDAW judgment called our attention to how that is interpreted in Northern Ireland, with the concern about how the concepts of the preservation of the life of the mother and of long-term damage were being interpreted. It is vital that the Government address this so that we can be sure that women in Northern Ireland are not being treated differently with regard to preservation of life from women in England and Wales.

We know that the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence clinical guidelines apply, but can the Secretary of State confirm that those will be used to deal with these sorts of issues? While the vast majority of abortions happen before 10 weeks, there are some very sad cases that involve late-term abortions, often for very good medical and health reasons. It is vital, in separating out these two issues and ensuring that people in Northern Ireland have confidence about what this legislation has done and the regulations that the Government will bring in, that those issues are addressed. We know that whether people can access a safe, legal abortion has no impact on the rate of abortion, but we also know that keeping people safe starts with ensuring that they are not criminalised for wanting to make a basic human right choice—to have control over their own body.

I urge the Secretary of State to address those issues. In this interim period, many women in Northern Ireland will need our help and support; I have been contacted by women who are not clear about how to access these services. They have seen that their human rights are finally being upheld, and now they need the Secretary of State to finish the job—which he alone can do, because the legislation was clear that it ultimately rests with him to protect their human rights—that the House asked him to do in July and that came to fruition last Monday.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 3(2)

Stella Creasy Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

All Members in this Chamber would like to see the Stormont Assembly restored, but we tabled these self-executing clauses because we recognised that the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland should not be abandoned in the face of political indecision. It now falls on us to hold the Secretary of State to account for how he is enacting the provisions. We are 35 days away from the possibility that these clauses will become law, so will he give us some more detail? In particular, he talks about consultation. Can he confirm whether there is going to be public involvement in that consultation? It is really important for this House to be clear that, just as we would not ask non-medical professionals to consult on how to conduct a vasectomy, we should not do so when it comes to an abortion.

We also need to understand the Secretary of State’s timeline. I agree with the concerns raised across the House about the interim period, and about what will happen when we decriminalise sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 on 22 October if the Assembly is not reconstituted. I note that the Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 will remain in place, so the idea that there will not be any regulation at all simply is not true. We must deal with fact, not scaremongering, in this debate. But still, can he confirm that he is talking to the royal colleges—the actual medical experts? He says in the report that there is a cross-departmental Government body. Who is on that body and what is their remit? He talks about talking to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, but it is the Equality and Human Rights Commission that would have any jurisdiction in terms of that consultation, so when has he spoken to it?

With 35 days to go, what is the Secretary of State’s message to women in Northern Ireland who will need an abortion on 22 October, whether because they have a fatal foetal abnormality, are a victim of rape or incest, or simply do not want to be forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy? How will he make these reports CEDAW-compliant? His own report says that there is not a clear path. Will he tell us a bit more about how he is going to set that out and what international models he is looking at? Above all, can he give us the confidence tonight that when he is managing this interim process, the mother of a 15-year-old girl who is facing a prosecution because she got abortion pills for her daughter who was in an abusive relationship will not face prosecution from 22 October? If we do one thing in this House this evening that is constructive, let us take the stress and pressure off that family.

The Government said that they wanted more time. That is why they amended this clause in the House of Lords. Everybody here has talked about the importance of dealing with that interim period. It will not be dealt with by law; it will dealt with by regulation. So will the Secretary of State set out precisely what regulations he is looking at now so that when we get to that 35-day period we can shorten it and give everybody here comfort that the human rights of the women of Northern Ireland will continue to be upheld?