Business of the House
Rosie Winterton Excerpts(2 months, 1 week ago)
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Lucy Powell
Yesterday was a very difficult day in the House of Commons, and for Mr Speaker personally, as he did his utmost to do what he thought was in the best interests of the House. We should all reflect on how we got to where we got to and accept our part in it. I welcome Mr Speaker’s desire to resolve these matters in discussions with us and others across the House, and I am sure that the vast majority of Members accept his genuine and heartfelt commitment to this House, and that he always has the best intentions in making his decisions.
I do not want to go over those issues now, except to say that I am grateful to Mr Speaker for seeking to enable the widest possible range of views to be expressed. No one could have foreseen events unfolding as they did. As it was—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. Let us not have a repeat of the behaviour last night. Can we listen to each other with respect? It is not good to have this shouting at the shadow Leader of the House—calmness, please.
Lucy Powell
As you say, Madam Deputy Speaker, it really is not a good look.
No one could have foreseen what happened. As it was, with the Scottish National party indicating that it would vote for our amendment, along with many Conservative Members, it was right that it should be put. The Government made an extraordinary decision to withdraw from the debate, raising a number of questions.
However, let us not forget that we were discussing the most serious of matters—those of life and death, war and conflict, and how we as a country, and as a Parliament, can play our part in bringing about a much-longed-for lasting peace, based on a two-state solution. It is to be regretted that at such a time we did not show ourselves at our best and that parliamentary antics were the story, not Parliament coming together with one voice, saying, “We want the fighting to stop, with an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and a meaningful process.” We can all reflect on that. My final reflection is that I hope this place will have more time, not less, to debate and discuss these profound matters. It should not be left to Opposition day debates and urgent questions to get them aired in the first place.
As we debate these important matters, a long shadow is increasingly cast over us: threats, intimidation and security concerns—[Interruption.] I mean, it’s remarkable. I know that this issue is of huge concern to Mr Speaker too; it is something that keeps him awake at night and is his first priority. I join him in praising the security team working to keep us safe. The legitimate lobbying of Members is part and parcel of our job and our democracy. That, at times, can be robust, and we can all disagree strongly, yet increasingly we are seeing a line being crossed.
I know that Members feel uncomfortable discussing their experiences for fear of attracting more unwanted attention, or because we do not want to come across as whingeing when we have such privileged positions, but during recess we saw another line being crossed, with the intimidation of a Member and their family at their family home. Reports that other organisations will be targeting the homes of MPs ahead of and during the election have caused huge anxiety. It is a totally unacceptable development. Oh, there is no noise for that one. It not only causes anxiety for MPs and their families, neighbours and staff; it is antidemocratic and is undoubtedly starting to affect people’s decisions and behaviours. That is wrong, and we must do more to address it. Does the Leader of the House agree that the police should take a much more hard-line approach to so-called protests outside the homes of Members of Parliament? Can she confirm that the police should use the powers they have to stop such protests, and say whether further guidance can be issued?
Does the Leader of the House agree that we need to look at the causes, not just the symptoms, of this sometimes toxic and febrile environment? First, does she agree that we have a duty to be careful with our language and in how we conduct ourselves and challenge one another, and that we should avoid stoking division? Next, does she agree that more should be done, with extra powers given, to regulate social media and elsewhere to tackle the spread of misinformation, disinformation, deepfakes and other dangerous material? With the rise in antisemitism, Islamophobia and hate, can the Leader of the House confirm that the Government will bring forward a hate crime and extremism strategy with urgency? Finally, does she agree that the defending democracy taskforce should have a broader remit to defend democracy from threats within our borders, and that we should take a more cross-party approach as we head towards what is likely to be a very testing general election?
Penny Mordaunt
I thank my hon. Friend for his suggestion. It is sad that what happened yesterday with regard to the Speaker happened when the SNP was trying to hold an Opposition day debate on the most serious of issues. I heard what he said, and will be speaking to business managers.
Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)
Yesterday was incredibly disappointing, from our point of view. It was meant to be an Opposition day, and it was one of only three times in a calendar year when our party gets an opportunity to put forward its business to the House. I do not think that what we came forward with was a surprise to anyone. We were allocated an Opposition day four or five weeks ago, but totally understandably, it had to be moved when the Northern Ireland Assembly was reconvening. At that stage, there were conversations, and I was asked when people would have sight of the Gaza motion that we would bring forward, so it is quite extraordinary for anyone to suggest that they did not know we might come forward with a motion on that topic. When it got to our Opposition day—one of the very few times when we can put forward our policies—our voice was silenced: our motion could not be voted on. That is incredibly disappointing for me and a significant number of my constituents, and those of my hon. Friends and hon. Members from across the Chamber who wanted to support the motion.
Given that, in effect, we did not get an Opposition day yesterday, can we be allocated an alternative date? As others have said, we lost a significant amount of time at the start of the debate, and because of the Speaker’s decision, unfortunately we lost 40 minutes at the end of the debate. That meant that colleagues were cut short, and some withdrew from the debate. What consideration will the Leader of the House give to that suggestion—and, beyond that, to protection for the smaller parties, so that they are not simply railroaded for the political purposes of either of the bigger parties?
I echo the comments of the shadow Leader of the House, but it is critical that all Members of this place, whatever their position or status, be protected from bullying and intimidation. If reports from many media outlets are to be believed, it is entirely unacceptable that significant pressure was put on Mr Speaker to come to his decision yesterday. What steps will the Leader of the House take to investigate those very serious claims? If there is any substance to them, it is an affront to democracy that a party leader can direct decisions of the Chair of this place.
As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am, as Chief Whip, involved in a number of conversations on how business comes forward. I had direct assurances that I would have a vote on the words of my motion yesterday. Everyone knew well in advance what the potential outcome would be at the end of yesterday’s debate, so to suggest that no one knew is utter nonsense. The reason we are in this position is that convention and the Standing Orders of this House were overruled, against the advice of the Clerks. That only happened because the Labour party wanted to be dug out of a hole. That is unacceptable.
Penny Mordaunt
I welcome my hon. Friend back to his place. He is quite right to raise the matter of pressures on his council, particularly those born of the actions of the Mayor of London, whose budget is in crisis. Local government has had about a 7% uplift across the board, but London boroughs clearly face local issues and particular pressures because of the Mayor’s mismanagement. My hon. Friend will know that the next questions to the relevant Secretary of State are on 4 March.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the Chairman of the Backbench Business Committee.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
I thank the Leader of the House for the business statement and, in particular, for announcing the Backbench Business debates for next Thursday. I think the Leader of the House will be aware that between now and Easter, the Backbench Business Committee has little or no time to allocate for debates in the Chamber beyond next Thursday, due to other business encroaching into Thursdays, including the Budget debate. I therefore wonder whether, if there is any additional time between now and the Easter recess, the Leader of the House could tip me the wink as soon as possible, and if she could tip us the wink, via the normal channels, when the date of the estimates day debates is known. We would really appreciate that, so that we can get the wheels in motion.
Of course, we continue to welcome applications for debates in Westminster Hall on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Our Committee has written to the Procedure Committee to ask for a change to Standing Orders, so that Westminster Hall debates on Thursdays can begin at 12.30 pm instead of 1.30 pm. It seems that the start time has not caught up with changes to the parliamentary timetable over the years; the change might facilitate better attendance at debates on a Thursday afternoon.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to make a point of order that is germane to the proceedings.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Points of order will come after the Select Committee statement. If the hon. Gentleman had wanted to intervene in business questions, I would of course have called him if he had been here at the beginning, but I am afraid that I have to direct him to make his point of order at the end of the Select Committee statement.
While I am about it, it might be useful for me to remind right hon. and hon. Members that any criticism of the Speaker or the Deputy Speakers can be made only on a substantive motion. Bearing in mind what the Leader of the House said about taking the temperature down, I wanted to remind Members that that is the case.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
In order to be here at this time, I have delayed giving a personal statement to the police on the latest individual who thinks that Members of this House are fair game to be harassed, stalked and threatened. It is clear that the lack of transparency over the reasons why we sometimes vote one way or another means that our votes are often wilfully misinterpreted and used to drum up hatred against parliamentarians, and that that perverts our democracy.
Let me make a suggestion. The European Parliament has many flaws, but in that place it is possible to place a written explanation of vote on the Parliament’s website, beside one’s voting record. The Opposition and Government spokesmen do it on behalf of their parties, and any individual Member can submit their own written explanation of why they have voted the way they have. It prevents the votes from being misinterpreted, it keeps Members safer, and it stops democracy being perverted. Will my right hon. Friend take that idea on board, stop the Opposition wilfully misinterpreting our votes on Opposition days, and help to keep our democracy safe?
Speaker’s Statement
Rosie Winterton Excerpts(2 months, 1 week ago)
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Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I will take one more point of order and then I really think we need to move on.
Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. There are two points in what Mr Speaker just said on which I seek your clarification. First, he implied that the proceedings of the House were manipulated by outside intimidation, with regard given to things said outside on social media and reacted to within the House. Quite an important Rubicon has been crossed, and it may have been crossed without the consent of Members. I would like to know where the processes of the House are likely to go, given the outside influences that may be brought to bear. I would be grateful for some clarification on that.
Secondly, as you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have the greatest respect for you, but, bluntly, you seem to have rammed through two decisions that were quite important to a lot of Members in which no individual vote will have been recorded. A number of us had thought quite carefully about how we were going to vote in those Divisions. Essentially, we were—forgive me—taken by surprise by those two decisions being rammed through. I wonder if it is possible to either void them or run them again.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The fact is, I put the Question and nobody called against it—[Interruption.] No.
Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was quite clear from the level of noise when the Question was put that the view of the Deputy Speaker was being challenged. I think it is absolutely extraordinary that that noise level was deemed to be “Aye”. It is inconceivable that anybody hearing it would have thought it was “Aye”. It is quite clear from all our Standing Orders and all our traditions that when the Speaker or Deputy’s decision is challenged, it should go to a Division.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I am extremely sorry. I took it on the voices. I was quite clear where we were. [Interruption.] The whole thing would have been considerably clearer if the Government had not withdrawn at that position.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder if the House has considered how this looks to people outside. It looks like chicanery. I rise to ask a question on behalf of the small parties. What precedent has been set today in the way this Opposition day has been handled? How can we ever have faith in the future that our voices and our votes will actually be heard, or will it always be about the two big parties here?
Madam Deputy Speaker
I think that the hon. Lady heard what Mr Speaker said—that he intends to talk with people. I also understand that the—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Excuse me, I am answering this point of order. The right hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.
I also know that the Chair of the Procedure Committee will look at some of the issues that have been raised, at Mr Speaker’s request.
Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance on how I can make my views more known to my constituents. I was one of the first Members of Parliament to call for the release of hostages, combined with a permanent ceasefire. I lost my Government job as a result. Because people misrepresented my position, someone suggested on social media that they would show my wife a real man. Someone else suggested that they would attack me and my family. Already today, Labour councillors in my patch are tweeting that I have not supported a ceasefire. I wanted to vote with the Scottish National party motion on a ceasefire. Can you advise me how I can make my constituents clear of my views, given that I was not able to vote?
Madam Deputy Speaker
I think the hon. Gentleman has put his views on the record by what he just said.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will Mr Speaker tell the House how many Labour Opposition day debates have taken place since 7 October in which no motion on a ceasefire was tabled? Why did Mr Speaker think, suddenly today on an SNP Opposition day, that it was really important that a Labour amendment be selected, even though Labour Members had their own chance—several times—to bring forward a debate and a motion on a ceasefire in Gaza?
Madam Deputy Speaker
Mr Speaker has said that he will meet the leaders and the Whips of the parties.
Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you for hearing all our points of order. I cannot be alone in this place today in being utterly embarrassed at how Members have conducted themselves— [Interruption.] Particularly those on the Government Benches—[Interruption.] I continue to be shouted down, which is a perfect example. And this, on an issue as serious as the one we have discussed today.
I am asking for clarification, because people in this Chamber clearly are not aware of the rules and what is going on. One former Leader of the House made a complaint, when he was not even in the Chamber to hear what happened. Madam Deputy Speaker, can you please give us some clarity: had the Conservative Government not withdrawn from the process today, would we have had three votes?
Madam Deputy Speaker
The hon. Gentleman may not know of all the discussions. I was very clear that there was the opportunity for three votes.
I will take one more point of order.
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would be grateful if you could provide me with some clarity on two points of procedure, because you are a much more experienced Member of Parliament than me. First, my understanding is that Mr Speaker made his decision earlier today on the basis that there would be three votes rather than two. Once the Government withdrew their amendment and there were two votes rather than three, was the decision to put the Labour amendment before the SNP motion made by you, Madam Deputy Speaker, or Mr Speaker? Secondly, it is routinely the case that if a Division—in this case on whether to sit in private—is completed after 7 o’ clock, as this one did, the motion would fall. Can you explain why it did not?
Madam Deputy Speaker
First, it is Standing Order No. 31 that ruled on the order in which the votes were to be taken. I said that very clearly in responding to the Leader of the House, who also knew what the order of the votes would be. Also, with reference to it coming after 7, once an amendment is before the House, it has to be decided on. I assure the hon. Lady that, as I know she would expect me to, I did seek proper and thorough advice on both points. I hope that gives her some reassurance, and I hope she accepts that that was the case and that was the advice, because I certainly would not do anything that went against the order that I had said.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker
I really am going to move on now, I am afraid. [Interruption.] Okay, I will take one more point of order, from Marion Fellows.
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Back in October, as soon as I could after the heinous actions of Hamas, I called for a ceasefire, and I have held firm to my belief since. My constituents have written to me in huge numbers telling me to vote for a ceasefire. I carry five proxy votes, and today I have not been allowed either to vote on my own behalf or to use those five proxy votes that I hold. Let me ask the same question that was asked by the hon. Member for Peterborough (Paul Bristow): how do I ensure that the way I would have voted, which was for a ceasefire, is recorded in the House?
Madam Deputy Speaker
I think the hon. Lady has made very clear what she would have done, and I am sure that she and all colleagues here will find ways in which to express that view.
Business of the House
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Dean Russell (Watford) (Con)
May I, too, send my condolences to the family of Sir Graham Bright, who was incredibly kind to me when I was a candidate and gave great support and advice over many years?
I have been robustly raising the concerns of residents of Kytes Drive in Watford regarding a planning application, including bringing a petition to Parliament about the long-term use of the site, to ensure that it would be suitable and used only for people who were veterans, those with disabilities and older people. I am pleased to say that, by ensuring that the chief executive of Anchor heard residents’ concerns, I have had a small long-term win: Anchor has agreed to pursue a local authority lettings agreement prioritising the housing needs of people with disabilities, veterans and other vulnerable people.
Dean Russell
Although I appreciate that my right hon. Friend may not be able to comment on planning specifically, can she advise me on how I can best encourage the council to take up that offer?
Mr Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)
It will shortly be 25 years since the establishment of the Welsh Assembly, so we have had 25 years of 60 Senedd Members stealing a living from the taxpayer while delivering zero identifiable benefits for the people of Wales to explain their existence. At the Welsh Affairs Committee recently, the Secretary of State for Wales was unable to name even three benefits of devolution when I questioned him. In 1997, the Labour Secretary of State for Wales in this place said that devolution was “a process”, “not an event” and should be continuously reviewed—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. I think the hon. Gentleman needs to be careful with his language when he uses the word “stealing”. He might want to reconsider that.
Mr Roberts
I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Members of the Senedd may be questionably obtaining a salary for not doing a great deal of work—that may be a better way of putting it.
Will the Leader of the House confirm which Department should be reviewing devolution and when the last review was? Can we have a debate on whether the people of Wales are happy with having devolution at all?
Business of the House
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The Leader of the House of Commons (Penny Mordaunt)
I add my thanks to all Members who have paid tribute to the wonderful Sir Tony, not just today but over the past week, including the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell). I sincerely hope that the words that have been heard today, and over the past week, will give some comfort to Tony’s family and friends at this difficult time.
With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will make a short statement altering the business of the House for Wednesday.
Wednesday 24 January—Consideration of a business of the House motion, followed by all stages of a short Bill relating to Executive formation in Northern Ireland, followed by a general debate on the situation in the Red sea.
I will announce further business on Thursday, in the usual way.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
It was a privilege to be in the Chamber for those fantastic and wonderful tributes to our dear friend, Tony Lloyd. I gave my tribute last week, and I will feel ever in his shadow as his successor as the Member for Manchester Central.
Labour share the Government’s desire to see an Executive restored as soon as possible, and if extending the deadline for elections to be called is the best way to achieve that, which it seems to be, we will, of course, fully support that. However, can the Leader of the House provide any update on the talks with the Northern Ireland political parties to achieve restoration of the Executive? It has been some time since we had an update.
Can the Leader of the House say for how long the period for Executive formation will be extended? Indeed, can she say when the Bill will be published? Giving the House just one day’s notice to pass an entire Bill in a day is far from ideal, especially when its detail is still unknown. Can she outline the Government’s plans for timetabling the Bill in the Lords?
Finally, I welcome tomorrow’s debate on the situation in the Red sea, albeit that the debate has been shortened. Can the Leader of the House tell us when the wider debate on other matters relating to defence and security will now take place?
Penny Mordaunt
I thank the hon. Lady and the Opposition for their support in this matter. The Bill, which she will understand is a very short Bill, will be tabled today and published tomorrow. I recognise that is a short amount of time for the House, but it is a very short Bill, and I think the House will be able to cope with that situation. She will understand that the timetable for this matter is very important.
I will make sure that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has heard what the hon. Lady said about an update, and she will know that the Government remain firmly of the belief that a sitting Northern Ireland Executive would be best placed to act quickly and effectively to resolve issues for the people they serve, and that is our aim. I am sure the debate will allow some of those issues to be aired, although it is a very narrow Bill.
Timetabling in the Lords is a matter for their lordships. I will make further announcements on future business in the usual way.
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
I too pay tribute to Tony Lloyd. It was really moving to listen to the contributions of his friends and colleagues, which reflected the warm and decent person he was.
I regret that we are having to deal with Executive formation in this place yet again, because it is always best for the democratically elected Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly to be in their place and governing in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland. The longer this drags on, the more the people of Northern Ireland suffer, which is frankly unforgiveable.
I regret, too, that we are seeing parliamentary business created on the hoof by this Government, particularly in such a serious and sensitive area, but here we are again. Many of us warned of exactly this problem arising. We are here because of a mess of the UK Government’s making, but they refuse to acknowledge that the easiest way of resolving it would be closer alignment with the EU, which would make much of this go away. Instead, the Brexit bourach rumbles on—a bourach this Government caused and are unwilling to face up to and sort out. My hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) will have much more to say on this tomorrow.
I have one question. Will this Government ever acknowledge their role in creating this mess and reconsider their hard-line rejection of the sensible option of returning to the single market?
Point of Order
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Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would appreciate your advice on what can be done in relation to the poor performance of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in responding to e-petitions. It has been agreed that the Government will provide a response to e-petitions that receive at least 10,000 signatures within no more than 21 days, but an e-petition calling on the Government to take the Clean Air (Human Rights) Bill through this House has been waiting for a response for more than 100 days and is now over 13 weeks late.
I wrote to the Environment Secretary on 28 November to highlight the delay in responding, and to ask for a response to this petition and an explanation for the delay, but I have not received a reply to that letter. This is not the first such letter I have had to write to the Environment Secretary about late responses to e-petitions. In the last year, the Petitions Committee has had to write to the Environment Secretary on nine occasions regarding significantly overdue Government responses. It is critical that petitioners, who are members of the public, get responses to their petitions in the agreed timeframes, and a failure to do so shows a lack of respect for the petitioning process.
Madam Deputy Speaker, can you advise on how I can ensure that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs responds to e-petitions in a timely fashion?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order and for giving me notice of it. The Committee she chairs is entitled to receive a timely response to petitions and, just as importantly, so are members of the public who have signed them. I am sure that she was entirely correct to raise this matter and that Members will be concerned about it. She is lucky that the Leader of the House happens to be here. I sense that she might want to say something in response, because I have no power to compel the Secretary of State to reply to the hon. Lady’s correspondence. As I say, I am sure that we may see a response from the Leader of the House, so perhaps it would be most effective for me to allow her to make a brief comment.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Penny Mordaunt)
I am very happy to do so, Madam Deputy Speaker. As the hon. Lady knows, we do a lot to ensure that Departments are adhering to their obligations to this place. That takes the form of training, and of calling in Ministers and permanent secretaries in certain cases, and of course Members of this House can raise any such issues at business questions. I hope that Members know that I always respond to those questions and always take their requests and comments seriously. I will ensure that the hon. Lady’s point is followed up with the Department and that her office receives an explanation and, I hope, a swift answer.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I thank the Leader of the House for that. I am sure it is extremely helpful, but no doubt the hon. Lady will come back if problems persist, as I am sure that the Speaker would be concerned to hear about these delays.
Bill Presented
Children Not in School (National Register and Support) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Bridget Phillipson, supported by Catherine McKinnell, presented a Bill to provide for a national register of children who are not pupils at any school; to require local authorities to provide data about such children in their area for the purpose of maintaining that register; to make provision about the support that local authorities provide to such children; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Wednesday 7 February, and to be printed (Bill 149).
Business of the House
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The Leader of the House of Commons (Penny Mordaunt)
With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will make a short business statement about an addition to this week’s business. Following the announcement by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that the Government intend to proscribe Hizb ut-Tahrir under the Terrorism Act 2000, the business on Thursday will now be:
Thursday 18 January—A motion to approve the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2024, followed by a debate on a motion on the loan charge, followed by a debate on a motion on HS2 compensation. The subjects for these debates were determined by the Backbench Business Committee.
I will announce further business in the usual way on Thursday.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the Leader of the House for updating the House on the business for Thursday, and for advance sight of it. It is good to see her announcing a change in business as a statement, rather than a point of order, and I know that Members will appreciate that proper approach.
There have long been serious concerns about the activities of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which have been exacerbated in the light of Hamas’s barbaric terrorist attack on Israel on 7 October. It is right that the Government have looked at the evidence and intelligence on the threat posed by the group, and Labour supports the decision to proscribe it.
I also welcome the fact that urgent time has been found to debate the order this week. Those who incite violence and promote or glorify terrorism have no place on Britain’s streets. In that context, what progress has been made on proscribing the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, either via a statutory instrument, as the Government are using this week for Hizb ut-Tahrir, or by a new process to deal with hostile state actors for which there is wide cross-party support in this House?
Finally, I have to say that when I was first notified of an emergency business statement today, I did wonder whether the Government were having a rethink about their Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill in the face of the usual infighting and chaos. Can the Leader of the House take this opportunity to confirm that, whether the Bill is or is not amended in Committee today or tomorrow, there will still be, as programmed, Third Reading at the end of tomorrow’s business? There has been some suggestion that the Government may still table their own amendments and push Third Reading back to another day. Would that not be further proof of the Prime Minister’s weakness and the fact that, when it comes to governing, they are just making it up as they go along?
Penny Mordaunt
I thank my right hon. Friend for his very helpful question. I know that this is an issue of great concern to many Members. He will appreciate that the Home Secretary and the Government will want to make any future announcements in a timely way while also considering all the effects that such a course of action might bring about, not least to our ships and their insurance, but I shall ensure that the Home Secretary has heard what he has said.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Does the Scottish National party spokesperson wish to ask a question?
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Given that the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee is not present and that the announcement has an impact on Thursday’s Backbench business, can the Leader of the House give us any information about the timing of the debate? Will there be a timetable motion, as there would be if the business were taken in a Committee upstairs—probably allowing an hour and a half in normal circumstances—and why has the Leader of the House decided that it should be taken on the Floor of the House rather than upstairs?
Points of Order
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Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last week I attended a Committee considering a statutory instrument on the immigration health surcharge, and, as would be expected in such a forum, I was asking questions of the Minister—in this instance, the Minister for Legal Migration and the Border, the hon. Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove)—who was unable to answer a number of those questions.
I should give credit to the Minister—I have alerted him to my intention to raise this point of order—because he has since written to me, ahead of the House finally agreeing to the statutory instrument yesterday, and I thank him for that courtesy. However, that was not the first time that I have been in a statutory instrument Committee and Ministers have been unable to answer questions. In this case it was off the back of a detailed impact assessment conducted by the Home Office, but on other occasions Ministers have been unable to supply answers on fairly basic information.
I wanted to raise the matter with you, Madam Deputy Speaker, because it seems to me that this is an inadequate and inopportune way for the House to operate. We are there to scrutinise the legislation of the Government of the day, and we are hampered in doing so if Ministers are unable to give us answers and instead promise, variously, to write to us or tell us about the issue involved at a later stage, or sometimes even brush off the questions. I wonder whether you would like to say anything on this matter, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order and for giving me notice of it. I assume that she did inform the Minister that she intended to raise it.
Obviously, Ministers are responsible for their own replies to Members in Delegated Legislation Committees, as they are in the Chamber. I note that the hon. Lady said that the Minister did her the courtesy of writing after the event, but I think we would all believe—and it is certainly my view—that Ministers should have all the relevant information to hand when responding to a debate. The Leader of the House is here and has clearly listened carefully to what the hon. Lady has said. I am sure that she will take that point back, as will others on the Treasury Bench.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I can tell the House that this is not an isolated incident in statutory instrument Committees, but surely it is not good enough, because the Ministers who are answering questions about an impact assessment have signed that impact assessment and dated it to confirm that they are responsible and fully aware of its contents. If Ministers are indeed signing off impact assessments on statutory instruments and presenting them to Committees without knowing the contents, that is an extremely troubling revelation.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I note the point that the hon. Gentleman has made. Let me say again that this is up to individual Ministers; we cannot test them from the Chair before they respond to a debate on a statutory instrument.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I sense that the Leader of the House might like to provide a brief response.
Penny Mordaunt
Further to the point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We take these matters very seriously, and I will ensure that the points that Members have raised are brought to the attention of the Departments that have been mentioned.
I would just add that a great deal of work has been done by the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, which has been looking into how we can improve these processes, the quality of impact assessments and so forth, and a large training programme takes place in Departments. My noble Friend Lord True and I have also undertaken sessions with Ministers dealing with statutory instruments, involving training and improving the quality of what is put forward to enable the House to scrutinise legislation properly.
There will be incidents, I am sure, particularly with complex briefs, where someone cannot recall the information while at the Dispatch Box, but as the textbook example set out by the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) with regard to my hon. Friend the Minister for Legal Migration and the Border shows, when those situations arise, Ministers are very aware of their responsibility to get back to hon. Members before those statutory instruments come into effect.
Madam Deputy Speaker
In that helpful intervention the Leader of the House has outlined the programme that is in train, and I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members will keep their beady eyes on the situation and Ministers will ensure that they are as well prepared as possible.
Bills Presented
Unpaid Trial Work Periods (Prohibition) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Stewart Malcolm McDonald, supported by Kirsten Oswald, Ms Anum Qaisar, David Linden, Deidre Brock, Patricia Gibson, Alison Thewliss, Allan Dorans, Stuart C. McDonald, Dr Philippa Whitford, Alyn Smith and Ian Blackford, presented a Bill to prohibit unpaid trial work periods; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 15 March, and to be printed (Bill 144).
Military Action (Parliamentary Approval) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Richard Foord presented a Bill to require parliamentary approval for the deployment of UK armed forces for armed conflict; to provide for exemptions from that requirement in cases of emergency or in respect of compliance with treaty obligations; to make provision for retrospective parliamentary approval in certain circumstances; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the first time; to be read a second time on Friday 26 January, and to be printed (Bill 146).
Business of the House
Rosie Winterton Excerpts(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Penny Mordaunt
I am very much looking forward to visiting my hon. Friend’s constituency. We have been through a rough few years, but the people of this country and his constituency have been absolutely stoic. I know that his local area enjoys nearly full employment and high average wages. I think that all 40 schools in his area are rated good or outstanding, and his business community has attracted unprecedented foreign investment. I know that he is eager to do more for his constituents, but I look forward to learning more about what his community is delivering when I visit shortly.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I gently point out that it is quite important to ask the Leader of the House something that relates to business in the House, rather than for shout-outs, which are not quite appropriate for business questions.
Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
I invite the Leader of the House, and in fact all hon. Members, to join me and Samaritans on Monday for a brew. Blue Monday may have been a term invented by the travel industry to encourage us to book holidays, but we have converted it to Brew Monday, when we can talk about the importance of talking to each other in an effort to prevent suicide. To back that up, can we have a debate in Government time on the national suicide prevention strategy, and look at what else we can do besides Brew Monday to prevent suicides?
Business of the House
Rosie Winterton Excerpts(4 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. Just a little reminder that we have several statements and then two debates, so questions should be fairly brief.
Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)
In 2018, I was approached by an elderly constituent who had fallen victim to a bank fraud because of an abuse of trust. It took six months for the bank to admit fault. I raised the issue with Durham Constabulary in 2019, but the case remains unresolved after nearly five years, mainly due to a severe lack of resources, with only one forensic accountant in the constabulary. Tragically, my constituent lost her husband during this time and her own health has suffered, more from the stress of the long investigation than from the initial crime. This is not justice—we are failing victims of crime. Will the Leader of the House intervene and give her advice on how best to seek a resolution?
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Just a little reminder that it is important to ask the Leader of the House about something that is within her responsibilities—whether a debate might be held, for example.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
As confirmed by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the Office for Budget Responsibility, interest on the UK’s £2.6 trillion debt will be £22 billion higher this year than was forecast in March. It will now reach £116 billion, equating to £318 million of taxpayers’ money every day, or six times Scotland’s annual NHS budget. Will the Leader of the House make a statement explaining the impact on public services in Scotland and across the UK next year, given the UK’s need to service its growing mountain of debt?
Penny Mordaunt
I am sure I speak for everyone in the Chamber and the whole House when I join the hon. Lady in her condolences and memories, particularly for Rebecca and Gaby, but also for all those affected by that appalling, tragic incident, which is still very vivid in all our minds. I shall certainly make sure that the relevant Departments—there will be a few that have an interest—have heard what she has said. It is obviously a live and ongoing case, so I am not able to comment further, but she has done a great service by reminding us of that anniversary and I shall make sure that Ministers have heard her words.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
We do have to be very careful if there are any ongoing cases.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
I am sure the Leader of the House will join me in my praise and thanks to London’s Community Kitchen and the Sufra food bank, which do such wonderful work in my constituency, but will she do more? In the new year, will she hold a debate in this place about the work of food banks across the country, not just so that we can praise and thank them for all that they do, but so that we can make them redundant?
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Does it relate to the business question?
Dame Diana Johnson
Yes, it is directly related to one of the comments that the Leader of the House made. On Report of the Victims and Prisoners Bill, the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar), announced that there would be a statement to the House on the infected blood issue. It was not clear from what the Leader of the House said whether that would be an oral statement or a written statement. Of course, I think that the House is expecting an oral statement, so I just want confirmation that that is what will happen.
These matters are often left to be discussed on the very last day before we go into recess. I urge the Leader of the House not to allow the statement to be on the last day, if possible, because that sends a signal to people—to the infected and affected—that they are at the back of the queue again when it comes to the Government explaining what is happening.
Madam Deputy Speaker
The Leader of the House is still here, and I think she wishes to respond directly.
Penny Mordaunt
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The answer is yes, with the caveat that the right hon. Lady will understand: business is fluid, events happen and there is demand for particular statements. She will know from her meetings with the Minister for the Cabinet Office that he is a very diligent individual. He cares deeply about this issue, and I know that he will want to come to the House given the importance of the matter. I fully understand the optics that the right hon. Lady has described. She will know that I cannot give guarantees, but I hope that I have reassured her of our intent.
Business of the House
Rosie Winterton Excerpts(4 months, 4 weeks ago)
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Penny Mordaunt
As my right hon. Friend asked her question, there were audible gasps across the Chamber. That is an incredible lack of local political leadership. Council tax payers in her district will be disappointed to hear that news. If she were to apply for a debate, I am sure that it would be well attended. I am sure that everyone would urge restraint and want to ensure the best value possible for people’s hard-earned cash.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
It is tempting to forestall and dismantle now any spin that the Leader of the House may be inclined to bring up on Scottish education issues, given Westminster’s shocking record. Following her outburst against Scotland’s health service workers last week, I must clear up some things. Scotland watches her “odd” weekly rants, as the Scottish press dubs them, with concern and alarm. Let me give some useful facts for her and Scotland about the Scottish NHS: health funding is at record highs; staffing levels are also at a record high, with far more staff per head than England; we have the best performing A&E units and the highest number of GPs per head in the UK, no prescriptions charges, and still not a single day lost to industrial disputes in the Scottish NHS. There is always room for improvement but, as the Leader of the House reaches for her latest penny dreadful script, she can rest assured that I will be happy to set the record straight, wherever her imagination takes her.
Meanwhile, the Government plumb new depths with their immigration panic measures, which are so damaging to Scotland in particular. The Daily Telegraph columnist Tim Stanley has written:
“A friend has messaged me in a blind panic”.
If they fall in love and marry someone from overseas, must they have an income of £38,700 to settle here? He went on to say:
“Something like 75% of us earn less than that. Is it fair to limit family formation to the rich? Is it conservative…to divide families?
Of course, it is fine if someone is rich, so maybe it is.
If we, our children or our grandchildren fall in love with someone from another country—many of us do so on our travels; I am living proof of that—they will not be able to join us here unless we have guaranteed earnings nearing £39,000. Cue a further exodus of our young people from these shores to other countries with a more enlightened approach to migration and their citizens’ human rights. Even worse, those who have already gone through the process and who thought that they had won the right to live here in peace will have to come up with that figure the next time their visa is extended. Should Parliament not have debated these extreme measures first? Can the Leader of the House defend this shameful policy, or are she and other Ministers threatening to resign?
Penny Mordaunt
I thank my right hon. Friend for raising this shocking situation. S4C is an incredibly important service to culture and education, and we want that organisation also to enshrine UK and Welsh values at its heart. Given that Culture, Media and Sport questions is not until 11 January, I will write this afternoon on his behalf and ensure that the Culture Secretary has heard of this appalling situation. I hope that it will swiftly become a happier one.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
I thank the Leader of the House for announcing the Backbench Business for next Thursday. Before those two debates, there will be a Select Committee statement on a Home Affairs Committee report on human trafficking, which will be published tomorrow. I also thank her for our meeting earlier this week and reiterate my request that she gives us an early indication of any Backbench Business Committee time in the week beginning 8 January so that we can allocate that business prior to the Christmas recess.
In my role as Chair of the Committee, Members from across the House often ask me questions, thinking that I benefit from a level of inside knowledge or political insight. One question that I am repeatedly asked is, “Do you know the recess dates following Christmas?” On behalf of Members across the House, I ask that question of the Leader of the House; possibly she will let us know next week, before the Christmas recess.
I have been contacted by a number of constituents regarding the new proposed earnings threshold of £38,700 to be eligible for a spouse visa. Will that new threshold apply to new applicants only or to existing visa holders already resident in the UK and validly here, looking to extend their stay? It could jeopardise families who are legally here, gainfully employed and making a positive contribution if they are possibly having the rules changed underneath them.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. I will be prioritising those who did not contribute to the earlier urgent question and statement.
Sir Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
Can we have a debate on antisemitism in higher education? This week, the presidents of Harvard, MIT and Penn appeared before the United States Congress, and when asked repeatedly about whether calling for genocide of Jews breaks the university code of conduct and was harassment, they said that it “depends on the context” and whether the speech turned into actual genocidal conduct. It is impossible to imagine a call for mass murder of any other minority group being said to depend on the context. A call for the mass murder of black people or gay people would rightly not be tolerated for a moment. This is top-level institutional Jew hatred at the highest levels of academia, and sadly universities in the United Kingdom are also infested with antisemitism. Does the Leader of the House agree that British students must be protected from such poison?
Sir Christopher Chope
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I can take only points of order that relate directly to the business statement. Is that the case?
Sir Christopher Chope
It is, Madam Deputy Speaker. In answering my question about early-day motion 114, the Leader of the House said that she would write to the DEFRA Minister about it. However, when the subject was debated on 27 November in Westminster Hall, I asked the DEFRA Minister whether he would facilitate a debate on the statutory instrument, saying that it is
“obviously of great concern to many Members of Parliament and even more so to our constituents, before it comes into force on 31 December”.
The Minister for Food, Farming and Fisheries, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mark Spencer), responded:
“I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Of course he will be fully aware that it is for parliamentary business managers to arrange such debates, but I will certainly have a conversation with those business managers following this debate.”—[Official Report, 27 November 2023; Vol. 741, c. 223-24WH.]
I wonder whether that discussion ever took place. We are now in a situation where the Leader of the House says she relies on DEFRA to organise a debate, and a DEFRA Minister says it is for parliamentary business managers to organise. Who is in charge, Madam Deputy Speaker?
Madam Deputy Speaker
I think that was a slight extension of business questions rather than a point of order. Is the hon. Gentleman’s point of order that he wishes to know how to gain further clarification on the matter?
Madam Deputy Speaker
The hon. Gentleman is lucky that the Leader of the House is still here, and she indicates that she wishes to make a response to his point of order.
Penny Mordaunt
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) is a very experienced and diligent parliamentarian. He has done everything right: he has pursued the Department and not had satisfaction from it, and when right hon. and hon. Members do not have satisfaction from a Department, they must bring their issues to business questions. I hope they know that I will always follow up on their behalf, and I will do so in the case of my hon. Friend. I will ensure that conversation takes place and I will put pen to paper this afternoon.