Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Robin Swann Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 3rd February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Steve Darling]

My apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker. Those businesspeople felt that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer was filling carrier bags full of £50 notes and placing them around towns, expecting people just to pick them up, so low were the safeguards for a number of the covid support schemes.

I will move on to an item that has already been covered by a number of colleagues: the carers scandal. More than 136,000 people—equivalent to the population of West Bromwich—have been left with liabilities of £250 million that they are extremely worried about. The Government have quite rightly commissioned a review, but it is due to report not in the near future but next summer. I challenge the Minister: why not wait for that review’s findings before we push hard on these proposals, so that we can ensure that lessons are learned? We want fraud to be tackled, but we want it done in the right way. There have been just seven working days between this Bill’s First Reading and its Second Reading. Large tracts of the safeguards and the rails around it are out for consultation as we speak, which we need if we are to understand what safeguards there will be to protect our communities.

Colleagues have already mentioned AI, and they are right to have done so, because there are real concerns about a lack of transparency—[Interruption.] Sorry, Jennie is joining in; she is having a dream about rabbits. As Liberal Democrats have already highlighted, we do not know what safeguards there will be around the use of AI. How can we back the Bill until we know what safeguards will exist? I would like to reflect on how the Bill can contain those appropriate safeguards. Sadly, as the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth highlighted, the DWP is a broken Department.

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

Bearing in mind the money that has been claimed back from unpaid carers and our concerns about the DWP, does the hon. Member agree that this legislation would see more unpaid carers or their like come under far harder and harsher penalties?

[Steve Darling]

I welcome the hon. Member’s intervention; he has highlighted a serious issue, and he is spot on. One has only to reflect on the significant backlog, with 90,000 people waiting for their pension to be reviewed as part of the winter fuel allowance issues—that is a massive backlog.

Access to Work, which is meant to support people with disabilities into work, is sadly another broken system. Quite often, those wishing to receive support find that job offers are withdrawn because their work package has not been pulled together in time. An academic survey has highlighted that over three years, sadly, almost 600 people committed suicide around the management of their support from the DWP. I suggest to the Secretary of State that, while one understands the aspirations of this Bill, it is far too much of a Big Brother Bill. It is far too much of a snoopers charter, and I suggest to the Government that they withdraw it.

Welfare Cap

Robin Swann Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

The hon. Member has talked eloquently about the challenges of getting into the workplace. Does he realise that a large number of people across our society who are economically inactive have the desire to look for work and have welfare payments to support them getting into work, but sometimes through no fault of their own the system works against them?

[Dr Sandher]

I thank the hon. Member for that point. Indeed, that is the entire reason why we are changing the system today. Yes, it is about practical changes and providing more support, but it is also about a change of tone, a change of attitude and treating people like human beings. That is exactly what Labour Members believe.

These reforms and support, at their core, are about ensuring that every single person has a decent job, which gives them meaning and something to talk about with their mates. A previous Labour Government did that so well, and that is how we got poverty down. A previous Member for Sedgefield, who is a shining light for us on the Labour Benches, promised to end child poverty in a generation, and a previous Member for Dunfermline, who is a hero to us, put that into practice and reduced child poverty by almost a million. It is that Labour tradition to which I speak. That Labour tradition is why I am proud to stand here today, and that is why I am proud to vote in favour of these motions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

I agree with a number of the comments that have been made across the House today. I found myself nodding along with the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) there, and particularly with the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). I just want to highlight a couple of things before I get into the meat of my speech.

We know that 38% of universal credit claimants are in work, so I am glad that the Government are talking about how to make work pay and how to get more people into work. I am glad that the Government are investing in strategies that will get young people into work, and that will get people who have been long-term unemployed, or even short-term unemployed, back into work. I am glad that they are reforming jobcentres so that they will be assisting people in a way that they maybe have not been doing in recent times. I am pleased about all of that, but we need to recognise that 38% of those on universal credit are already working. It is just that their work is not paying enough or is not offering flexible enough hours if they have childcare or other caring commitments, and therefore they need that top-up.

The welfare cap covers not only benefits and other elements of social security provided to people who are out of work, but child benefit and a huge number of different things. It is not entirely focused on people who are out of work, although I appreciate the Government’s action on that.

The right hon. Member for Islington North talked about how the welfare cap is a bit backwards. Everyone would be jumping up and down, saying, “That’s backwards,” if we said, “We are going to put a cap on the number of people who can receive chemotherapy, and on the amount spent on it, because we are going to reduce the rates of smoking, obesity and other risk factors. We are going to have a healthier population, so it is okay for us to cap chemotherapy. We are going to put all this stuff in place to ensure that we reduce the spend on chemotherapy.” We should first spend the money and solve the problem, and then the spend will reduce.

That is the whole point about the welfare cap—it is backwards. By having a welfare cap, the Government are saying that they will reduce the spend on welfare by doing all the things that they are not yet doing. They have not solved the problem. Once they have solved the problem, and once the welfare system has improved in the way they are trying to improve it, the numbers and the spend will reduce.

I am, however, not entirely convinced that everything the Government are putting in place will reduce the spend, because they are battling against a number of factors. Even if they manage to get jobs to pay better, even if they further increase the minimum wage so it is closer to a living wage, even if they ensure there are more opportunities, and even if the Chancellor’s opportunities for growth actually exist and create many more jobs, there will still be a significant number of people whom the system is not set up to support.

I have dealt with people in my constituency surgeries who are being supported by third sector organisations, which are being hammered by the national insurance changes and will not be able to provide the support they have been providing. I have dealt with individuals who are six months away from having the consistency in their lives to be able to get up at 8 o’clock every morning.

My concern is that all Governments—I am not specifically blaming the Labour Government—look for quick wins. They look for the low-hanging fruit. “Where can we try to improve things so that people who are pretty close to work anyway—who are not that far out, who have pretty stable lives and who do not have an incredibly chaotic lifestyle—can access work?”

We will be letting down those people who have chaotic lifestyles and who are so far away from being able to get into paying work—particularly full-time paying work—if we reduce the amount of disability benefits they can claim or reduce the amount of support they can receive, when they are a year away from having the stability to be able to access work.

The social security safety net is not a safety net unless it provides support to people who absolutely cannot work right now, and who will need 12, 15 or 18 months, or two years, of intensive support to get to a position where they can achieve part-time work. I do not think that support is in place, and I do not think any Government have provided enough support to ensure that people are not left on the scrapheap.

[Robin Swann]

We talk about labelling people, and we used to have that awful acronym “NEETs”—young people who are not in education, employment or training—and thank goodness we have moved away from that.

The hon. Lady is talking about programmes, and the programmes we had in Northern Ireland under the European social fund and the UK shared prosperity fund are now being withdrawn from those communities. Those organisations were crucial in helping people who were far from employment get into gainful work. It takes time to build up young people’s confidence in society so that they see the value of work. I agree with the hon. Lady that the problem requires a long-term plan, but the Government are looking for short-term plans.

[Kirsty Blackman]

It is absolutely about long-term planning. That is why we are making the case that we cannot have a welfare cap and that things are being done backwards. We should put in place all the supports that the Government are promising, and more, to get people to the position where they can get into work.

The welfare cap is an unfortunate hurdle, particularly as it bakes in some of the cuts that have been made, such as the winter fuel payment. It seems that there will not be an increase in the level of paternity pay; it would be nice to see an increase in paternity pay levels and in the number of men taking up paternity leave. On young people not in education, employment or training—a phrase that was used earlier, when somebody said NEET—it would be great if young people had more chances and choices.

Finally, on issues relating to specific geographical locations—the Minister mentioned Blackpool—hon. Members would not expect me, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen North, to avoid talking about the importance for Aberdeen of having a just transition. I mentioned doing things backwards; the Minister needs to ensure we build up renewable energy jobs before we knock down the jobs in fossil fuels. I am concerned that the Government are failing to do that in the right order, and that we will have gaps where people will become unemployed because of the UK Government’s actions.

Women’s Changed State Pension Age: Compensation

Robin Swann Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Westminster Hall

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Thank you, Dr Murrison; it is a pleasure and an honour to serve under my constituency neighbour on, I think, your first day in the Chair. I congratulate all Members who have spoken powerfully and eloquently on behalf of their constituents. I also pay tribute to the those in the campaign, many of whom are in the Public Gallery, silent witnesses to our debate—I honour them for their long campaign for justice.

In particular, I congratulate the new Minister, who I am glad to welcome to his place. Today is his first outing as a Minister, and he has quite a job to do to answer this debate. He is, of course, familiar to us from the media as an independent expert, offering ostensibly impartial advice helpful to the Labour party over many years; I am glad to see him in his rightful place at last. I exonerate him, as a new Minister, for this decision: he did not make it, but has been thrown into it by his party and his boss, the Secretary of State. Perhaps he can change the policy, now that he is new to the role and not implicated in it. Perhaps it was a condition of his accepting office that the Government revisit this topic. I very much hope that that is what we will hear from him shortly.

Particular congratulations, likewise, to my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes). I honour his long campaign on behalf of women born in the 1950s. It is not only because he loves everything from the 1950s that he is taking this position; he is absolutely right in everything that he said.

The complexity of the matter has been well addressed by the ombudsman and by the Members who spoke today, so I will not revisit the issue in any detail; it reflects the work of a series of Governments over 30 years since the 1995 decision to equalise the retirement age. I was glad to see in the ombudsman’s report that the DWP has co-operated fully with his inquiry and I am glad that Ministers and officials respected the ombudsman process.

I am sure this point was made by the Secretary of State in the main Chamber when the decision was announced, but the suggestion that this matter could have been cleared up by the previous Government in consequence of the ombudsman’s report is, I think, a little unfair, given that the report came out only two months before the general election was called. It has taken five months for this Government to make their decision—these things are complex. I respect the challenge that the Government have had. I wish we had had time to address it ourselves, but the voters would not have it. This, of course, is this Government’s decision.

To address the central issue, the ombudsman found that adequate communications were made throughout the period, but that there was a particular maladministration, as Members have repeatedly mentioned: the delay in sending out letters in 2005 to 2007. It is good that the Secretary of State acknowledged that maladministration in her response to the ombudsman—I appreciate that and accept it—and that she apologised on behalf of the then Labour Government and the DWP. The fact is, however, while no direct financial loss may have been caused by the maladministration of communication, with a direct change to people’s incomes, nevertheless, as we have heard so eloquently from Members, the maladministration—the failure to communicate properly—has caused women to make decisions in ignorance of their true circumstances.

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

Is the hon. Gentleman surprised that the parliamentary ombudsman issued another report this morning damning the Department for Work and Pensions, which she criticised for

“failing to learn from its mistakes”?

She revealed yet another case, of a pensioner who was not told for eight years about a change to their pension that would leave them £3,000 a year worse off.

[Danny Kruger]

The hon. Gentleman highlights the central point here: although, as Members have said, the change of policy itself was not the subject of the ombudsman’s inquiry, the failure to communicate directly impacted the circumstances of many women. They did not understand the circumstances they would be in, and it changed the decisions they were making.

Adoptive Parents: Financial Support

Robin Swann Excerpts

Tuesday 14th January 2025 Westminster Hall

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Furniss. I thank the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) for bringing a very important topic to the House’s attention. It is important that we engage with adoptive parents, and prospective adoptive parents, to hear their experiences of adopting a child, because only through listening can we know the real-life challenges they face. The hon. Member gave a prime example in her opening comments regarding the financial pressures that deter couples and individuals from coming forward to adopt children.

As a Minister in Northern Ireland, I put through the Adoption and Children Act (Northern Ireland) 2022. Until that point, Northern Ireland had been bound by wholly inadequate and outdated legislation that had not been updated for three decades—it actually predated devolution. The 2022 Act updated the broad adoption frameworks and also had some tangible benefits, such as the introduction of a legal duty so that adopters in Northern Ireland can now access more support through our social services.

The issue raised in this debate is one step—and only one step—that the UK Government could take to bring forward immediate action to improve support for some of our adoptive parents: broadening statutory adoption leave and pay to self-employed parents in the same way that the maternity allowance is available for self-employed parents. This is important because the latest statistics show that, as at 31 March 2024, we had 3,999 children and young people in care in Northern Ireland. That is the highest number recorded since the introduction of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995. Of those children in care, 28% had been looked after for less than a year but 29% had been looked after for more than five years.

I believe in anything we can do to increase the number of people who want to adopt children, take them out of our care systems and give them the loving, caring home that is often experienced by those who come out of care into adoption. Last year, only 97 children were adopted from care in Northern Ireland, and 48% of them were adopted by couples in their 40s. Taking this step could encourage a wider spectrum of people to come forward. I am not saying this in a derogatory way, but those couples in their 40s may be more financially secure at that point in their life, and see that as the point at which they can adopt. Government support would allow younger couples, including those who are self-employed, and even those who work from home, to come forward and take up the gift that is the ability to adopt a child out of care. That is why I encourage the Government to do all they can to support the issue that has been brought to the House in this debate.

Women’s State Pension Age Communication: PHSO Report

Robin Swann Excerpts

Tuesday 17th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

We do not ignore the ombudsman; we just do not agree with the approach he takes to injustice or to remedy. We provided research that showed that only one in four people who receive an unsolicited letter remember getting it or reading it, so even if we had sent those letters out earlier—which, as we have said, we should have done—we do not believe it would have made the difference that the ombudsman claims. When 90% of women aged between 45 and 54 knew that the state pension age was increasing, we cannot justify a flat-rate compensation scheme of up to £10.5 billion. We do not believe that that is a fair or proportionate use of taxpayers’ money.

The ombudsman plays a really important role, and will continue to do so. I know that, as I have sent countless constituents to the ombudsman to try to get redress in the 14 years that I have been an MP. We continue to back their work and effort.

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

The Secretary of State has repeated time and again what this statement is not about, but what it is about is this Government not listening to the WASPI women and this Government not listening to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. In the Secretary of State’s statement, she said she will

“develop a detailed action plan out of the report”.

Considering that the report missed two thirds of this, especially the financial redress scheme, what action plan is she developing?

[Liz Kendall]

This is about how we make sure in such a situation that, once a Department has decided it needs to provide information and to send out letters, we actually do that, and do not have a 28-month delay. It is about asking what, in the 21st century, is the modern way to get personalised information and tailored advice to individuals about their state pension, their state pension age and, I would argue, all of their pensions. It is precisely about those issues, which matter so much, and dealing with the issues about the maladministration. If the hon. Member has any ideas about what more he thinks we should do on that issue, I am sure either I or my hon. Friend the Pensions Minister would be more than happy to meet him to hear his ideas.

Income Tax (Charge)

Robin Swann Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

I want to bring a Northern Ireland point of view on this Budget. First, I thank the Government for the £11.8 billion they have allocated for the infected and affected victims of the infected blood scandal, but I question whether it is enough and whether they will now deliver it at pace. It is unfortunate that the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) is no longer in his place, because I know the work he did on that previously as Paymaster General. I also welcome the moneys for the postmasters, but I ask the Government why there is still no recognition of or assurances for our WASPI women—the Women Against State Pension Inequality—despite the recommendation of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman and the pre and post-election photo opportunities taken by both the Government and the Opposition.

Health is devolved and, while I welcome the significant funding that health has been given here in England, I ask the Treasury to consider ringfencing the Barnett consequential that will go to health in Northern Ireland. I noticed that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland met our health trusts and health unions prior to the Budget, so it would be interesting to know exactly what the Northern Ireland Office is doing in regard to our health service in Northern Ireland.

It is also noticeable that our Northern Ireland Office has received a 66% increase in its allocation. I would question whether that is an indication that the Northern Ireland Office intends to be more hands-on, and exactly what it is going to fund in Northern Ireland with those moneys. I want to ensure that that is scrutinised by this House and is used in support of strategies that are implemented and supported by all the parties in the Northern Ireland Executive.

It has been said that the national health service will be exempt from the rise in employer national insurance contributions, but I seek clarification from the Treasury in respect of social care in Northern Ireland. I note that the Chancellor said that additional moneys would be delivered to local authorities so that the additional cost could be covered by social care providers here in England, but social care in Northern Ireland is paid for by our health service and our health trusts. I ask what contributions, and what considerations, the Treasury has put into that allocation so that there is equity across the piece. I also support the comments that the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling) made about the challenges facing our GPs, our community pharmacies, our dentists, our social care providers, and the voluntary and community sector that supports our health service.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

When the Chancellor introduced her Budget, one thing she said was that change must be felt. This Budget will be felt, but, in many instances, not in a good way. My constituency is peppered with small businesses employing 10 or 12 people. They are the victims of this Budget, because they are now going to be soaked with additional tax on jobs, and that will not bring change that will be felt in a good way; it will diminish employment in my constituency. My constituency also has many family farms, and they too will not feel this Budget in a good way, because inheritance tax will put many of their futures in jeopardy. Family farms are asset rich, but more often than not they are cash poor, so how on earth will they ever meet the huge imposition that has been placed on them?

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

The average farm income in the past year in Northern Ireland was £27,345, which does not exactly leave those family farms a lot of slack. It does not leave them much to live on, let alone meet inheritance tax bills.

[Jim Allister]

That illustrates my point. It shows how impossible and unfair it is to say to family farms—and it does not take a lot of acreage to be worth £1 million—“You may have the assets, you do not have the income, but you must pay the inheritance tax to HMRC.” What do those farmers do? They sell off part of the farm, and what does that do? It diminishes the food production, and it diminishes the viability of the farm. That will be how this Budget will be felt in many family farms. Similarly, it will be felt in a negative way by new homebuyers because of the stamp duty threshold reductions: new purchasers will now pay significantly more in tax to buy a new home.

As for the Budget allocation for Northern Ireland, back in 2012 the Government accepted a national barometer of need. Through Professor Holtham, it set out what was needed in each part of this nation. What £100 could buy in public services in England was then translated—because other areas were smaller—into what it would cost to buy the same amount in the rest of the United Kingdom: £105 in Scotland, £115 in Wales and £121 in Northern Ireland. Yes, according to the block grant transparency document this Budget provides for Wales £120 per £100 in England, but in Northern Ireland we continue to be just at need. Why is there that uplift for some parts of the United Kingdom and not for others? We in Northern Ireland also have no guarantee of meeting need beyond 2026-27. That is not assured in this Budget. I ask for my constituents what has been afforded to the constituents of Wales, an uplift on need so that they can see their public services provided properly.

Oral Answers to Questions

Robin Swann Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend has written to me about this matter, and I welcome her commitment to making progress. In an excellent piece of work, the former Work and Pensions Committee made a number of recommendations on the earnings rules, and once the new Committee is in place, we shall respond to the former Committee’s proposals.

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

The Minister has referred to the army of carers that we have across the country, but we also have an army of unpaid carers who are being deterred from applying for carer’s allowance because of concerns about the financial implications. Can the Government reassure those who have not yet come forward that they will be supported properly?