Nick Clegg
Main Page: Nick Clegg (Liberal Democrat - Sheffield, Hallam)Department Debates - View all Nick Clegg's debates with the Cabinet Office
(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
10. What assessment he has made of the recent debates in both Houses on his proposals for House of Lords reform.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)
The Government have received many representations on all aspects of House of Lords reform, including from constitutional experts. We recognise that a variety of views were expressed in recent debates in both Houses, and we are sure that the Joint Committee will take account of the debates when scrutinising the draft Bill and White Paper.
Penny Mordaunt
The elegance of our unwritten constitution allows it to adapt when necessary to meet a pressing need, but change for some other reason could be regarded as constitutional vandalism. Has the Deputy Prime Minister reflected on the fact that if a pressing need is not articulated, his plans for reform of the other place might fall into the latter category?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I do not think it is a new need, and in that sense it is not a pressing need, but there is an enduring need to make decisions in this place and the other House as accountable to the British people as possible. The simple principle that those who shape the laws of the land should be held to account by people who have to obey the laws of the land is a long-standing democratic principle.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
One matter of great concern in this Chamber is that the other place is most certainly secondary to it. Does my right hon. Friend see the opportunity to remove any ability for the other place to initiate legislation as a way to ensure the hierarchy between this place and the other place?
The Deputy Prime Minister
As we explained in our White Paper, we believe that the different mandates, electoral systems and terms of office, and of course the conventions enshrined in the Parliament Acts, will guarantee that although there will no doubt be an evolution in the relationship between the two Houses—that is bound to happen under any arrangement—the hierarchy between this place and the other place will remain intact.
Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)
The Deputy Prime Minister has just referred to the different mandates of Members of the other place, if it is reformed, and of this House. Does he not think, though, that the reforms would benefit from some clarification of those different mandates, so that the essential and long-standing relationship between MPs and constituents is not eroded?
The Deputy Prime Minister
We already have a system, of course, in which politicians are elected to different assemblies and Parliaments with different mandates, and as long as those mandates are clearly differentiated, as they would be under the proposed arrangements, there is no clash between them. Let us remember that what the Government suggest in the draft Bill is that elected Members of a reformed House of Lords would represent vastly larger areas than the smaller constituencies that we in this House represent.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
Given that in our debates so far no one has rushed to the defence of the hereditary principle or patronage, does my right hon. Friend not agree that if we are to make haste in delivering the principles behind Lords reform, it would be best to get on with removing the hereditary principle and patronage now? No one disagrees with that.
The Deputy Prime Minister
I certainly agree that we aspire to create a reform that, although evolutionary in its implementation—it will take several years rather than happen overnight—will at least be comprehensive and create a reformed House of Lords with a far greater mandate and democratic legitimacy than is currently the case.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
In the Deputy Prime Minister’s nirvana of 15-year terms, will he consider ruling out Members of the newly elected other place standing for this place, so that we do not have people roaming around one individual constituency trying to unseat the Member of Parliament by using their democratically elected 15-year position in the other place?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman may have noticed that in the White Paper we suggest precisely that. We suggest that there should be a cooling-off period of at least one term, so that those who leave the other place cannot instantly stand for this place. That is precisely to avoid the clash that he rightly identifies.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
Does the Deputy Prime Minister have a view on Lord Steel’s suggestion that a payment of £30,000 should be made to enable Lords to retire?
The Deputy Prime Minister
We are not in favour of that, but we are in favour of many provisions of Lord Steel’s private Member’s Bill and look forward to incorporating many of its transitional arrangements and so on into the Government Bill.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
Does the Deputy Prime Minister not understand that even those of us who support Lords reform cannot help wondering whether he has masochistic tendencies in trying to win this fight with one hand tied behind his back, and with the Prime Minister simply holding his coat and egging him on from the sidelines? Does he believe that he has the overwhelming support of his coalition partners to steer the Bill through both Houses? If not, is he not just wasting—
The Deputy Prime Minister
I remind the hon. Gentleman that all parties went to the country in last year’s general election with a clear manifesto commitment to reform the House of Lords. As I have said, it does not strike most people as a radical suggestion that the democratic principle that operates in Parliaments around the world should gently and incrementally be applied to the other place.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Do the Government’s proposals for the House of Lords include excluding peers not from England on voting on matters solely related to England?
The Deputy Prime Minister
We have not addressed that in the White Paper. If people want to discuss it in the Joint Committee, they are free to do so.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Has my right hon. Friend read the debates in which the argument was advanced that the House of Lords does its job, and therefore should not be changed in any way? If so, did he think he was reading the right issue of Hansard, or the one dated 1911, or perhaps the one dated 1832?
The Deputy Prime Minister
Whatever their views about the proposals for House of Lords reform that the Government made in the White Paper and the draft Bill, I believe that everybody accepts that the House of Lords is not immune to reform or improvement. My view is that political institutions are always susceptible to some improvement over time, and I believe that that package of carefully considered reforms, which I hope, over time, will enjoy cross-party support, will finally allow us to make progress on something that has been debated for more than a century.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
2. What recent representations he has received on the Government’s policy on the proposed length of fixed-term parliaments.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
7. What recent assessment he has made of the timetable for the reform of party funding.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)
The Government are committed to work to reform party funding. The Committee on Standards in Public Life is conducting a review and the Government will consider its recommendations, alongside other relevant evidence before taking this forward.
Greg Mulholland
I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. Does he agree that the unseemly spectacle last week of union leaders criticising the Labour leadership for not overtly supporting the strikes while the Labour leadership looked uncomfortably at the floor shows exactly why we need to get big money out of party funding and why we need real reform?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I agree that it cannot be healthy in a democracy if any political party is over-reliant on one source of funding to the exclusion of others. [Hon. Members: “Michael Brown!”] It is worth saying that the current situation is unsustainable and has done damage to all political parties, which is why it is something that we should look to reform on a cross-party basis.
Duncan Hames
If reforms to party funding are to have any meaningful effect they need to come into force at least 18 months before the next general election. Does the Deputy Prime Minister recognise that if his timetable cannot deliver, it might be overtaken by one that simply commands the support of a majority of the House?
The Deputy Prime Minister
We are first waiting to see the recommendations of the Committee on Standards in Public Life to consider whether they might kick-start a process of discussions between the parties, so that we can finally move beyond the shadow of the party funding scandals that have blighted all the political parties, and so that we can put the arrangements on a much more sustainable and transparent footing.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
Does the Deputy Prime Minister recognise the difference between 1 million trade union members donating £1 each to a political party and a wealthy individual writing out a cheque for a million quid?
The Deputy Prime Minister
As I said, I think that it is unhealthy if any political party is over-reliant on particular organisations, individuals or vested interests for their financial survival, and that is why I hope that all of us—given that all political parties have been affected by this in one way or another—can work together after the Committee on Standards in Public Life has produced its recommendations so that we can find a solution.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
The Deputy Prime Minister is right that all three major political parties entered the election with a commitment to reform the way in which political parties are funded. Will he confirm that he will follow convention and seek cross-party agreement on the way forward? Will he also outline the timeline he has in mind? There has obviously been a delay in relation to the Committee on Standards in Public Life. When does he think we will be able to start the discussions to resolve this issue?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I agree that we should always seek to deal with this issue on a cross-party basis where possible. However, I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman a precise timetable because it is not within the gift of the Government to decide when Sir Christopher Kelly produces his committee’s report. As soon as he does, I hope that we can consider the recommendations together to see whether they provide a basis for cross-party discussions.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)
As Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister on the full range of Government policy and initiatives, taking special responsibility for this Government’s programme of political and constitutional reform.
Penny Mordaunt
Which is the more pressing issue: the West Lothian question or House of Lords reform?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I do not think that it is an either/or choice. As the hon. Lady knows, there is a commitment in the coalition agreement to establish a commission to look into the West Lothian question, but I do not think that that precludes the Joint Committee looking at proposals for reform of the House of Lords at the same time.
Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)
Will the Deputy Prime Minister join me in expressing heartfelt concern for the horrendous ordeal of Milly Dowler’s family? There are now allegations that even as the police searched for Milly Dowler and as her parents waited and hoped, the News of the World was hacking into her phone. Today the Leader of the Opposition has called for a full public inquiry into illegality in the newspaper industry. Will the Deputy Prime Minister say that the Government will back that call?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I entirely agree with the right hon. and learned Lady, and I am sure that we both speak on behalf of the whole House and the rest of the country in saying that if the allegations are true such behaviour is simply beneath contempt. To hack into the phone of a missing child is grotesque, and the suggestion that that might have given false hope to Milly’s parents that she might have been alive only makes it all the more heart-rending. The absolute priority now is to get to the bottom of what actually happened—what is the truth—and that requires, above and beyond everything else, a police investigation that pursues the evidence ruthlessly, wherever it leads.
Ms Harman
Of course, this time the police investigations must be thorough and rigorous, but there must also be a public inquiry. There has been widespread malpractice and criminality, and there is a stain on the whole system. We must protect people from this and clean up the British press. Is the Deputy Prime Minister going to act?
The Deputy Prime Minister
If there are wider issues that need to be looked at once the police investigation is complete, of course we can return to them. However, I am sure that the right hon. and learned Lady will agree that the key thing—this is what Milly Dowler’s family and families up and down the country want to know—is: who did what when, who knew what they were doing and who will be held to account? We will be able to get to the bottom of that only when the police ruthlessly pursue the evidence, wherever it leads.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
T3. A constituent of mine who wishes to remain nameless has contacted me because she believes that a “YES! To Fairer Votes” preaddressed postal vote form was fraudulently completed on her behalf. Can my right hon. Friend tell me what action my constituent can take to establish who might have signed the form on her behalf and what measures we can introduce to prevent this from happening again in future?
The Deputy Prime Minister
If my hon. Friend has evidence from his constituent of criminal or fraudulent behaviour, it should of course be referred to the police. I suggest that should be done as quickly as possible.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
T2. The NSPCC has announced the closure of ChildLine in Edinburgh, which will result in the loss of 14 staff and hundreds of volunteers. The thrust of the closure is to encourage children to use the internet, but there is concern that those who are most in need of ChildLine have the least access to the internet. Will the Deputy Prime Minister meet me, the NSPCC and the many hundreds of ChildLine volunteers in Edinburgh to see whether we can get this decision reversed?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is right to raise his concerns about the effect of that closure, given that ChildLine exists precisely to help the most vulnerable children. I am more than happy to establish meetings for him, and I would also suggest that meetings take place in Edinburgh with the Scottish Government, whose responsibilities have a bearing on this issue—[Interruption.] They might be able to help.
Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)
T4. Is it not about time that we introduced a British Bill of Rights to address ludicrous cases such as that of the convicted foreign killer Mohammed Ibrahim, who is avoiding deportation by claiming the right to family life, even though he killed Amy Houston, thereby denying all her relatives the right to family life?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I hear my hon. Friend’s concern about these matters, and she is quite right to raise them. The Government have established a commission to look into the case for a British Bill of Rights that will incorporate and build on the existing rights that we already enjoy and extend them further where we can.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
T6. The right to form coalitions is very much part of our constitution. In Sheffield recently, Lib Dem councillors have co-opted a United Kingdom Independence party candidate on to one of our local town councils in order to maintain their grip on power. Does not this show that the Lib Dems will do anything, and do deals with any party, to maintain their grip on power?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I am not sure what case the hon. Lady is referring to—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. First, the House must show some courtesy to the Deputy Prime Minister as he responds to questions. Secondly, I want to hear from Mr Gordon Henderson.
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)
T5. Does my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister understand the resentment felt by many taxpayers in my constituency when they see their taxes being used to help to provide a range of free services in Scotland that are not enjoyed by the English? When will the Government take action to bring that unfair subsidy to an end?
The Deputy Prime Minister
One of the reasons we are transferring a great deal of new fiscal freedom to the Scottish Administration through the Scotland Bill is to ensure not only that the Scottish Government enjoy greater freedom to raise and spend money but that they are held to account for it. That is exactly what we are seeking to achieve in the Scotland Bill.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
T9. The Deputy Prime Minister has said on many occasions that if the House of Lords was reformed, this House would retain its primacy over the other place. In an article last week in The Times, his predecessor as leader of the Lib Dems, Lord Ashdown, said that if the House of Lords was reformed, it would have the right of veto over the decision to go to war. Who is right: the Deputy Prime Minister or his predecessor?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The House of Lords will clearly enjoy greater democratic legitimacy if it is wholly or largely elected, but that does not call into question the primacy of this House. Bicameral chambers all round the world manage this relationship perfectly adequately, with two directly elected chambers that have a relationship of subservience between the one and the other. That is precisely what will continue under the reforms that we have proposed.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
T7. Later this week, I shall attend a meeting of Waveney youth council in my constituency. Given the declining proportion of young people voting at recent elections, I would welcome an update to pass on to the youth council on the steps that my right hon. Friend is taking to ensure the early registration of young people and their active engagement in the political process.
The Deputy Prime Minister
We hope that the process of individual electoral registration that we are pressing ahead with, and particularly the practice of comparing existing databases with the electoral register, will enable us to identify voters, old and young, who should be on the register but are not.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
The finest databases in the country are run by Experian. I recently had a meeting with it to discuss the 3.5 million people who are not on the electoral register. It informed me that not 3.5 million but 6.5 million people are not on the electoral register. What steps is the Deputy Prime Minister taking to use the private sector—companies such as Experian and others—to increase the number of registered voters?
The Deputy Prime Minister
It is precisely to get to the bottom of exactly how many people who are not on the register but should be that we commissioned detailed research from the Electoral Commission to establish the facts. As I said earlier, we are running these projects so that we can have access to other publicly available databases to make sure that they are consistent with the electoral register.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
T8. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that by delivering 103,000 more adult apprentices than were promised by the previous Government, this Government are delivering on their promise to rebuild the economy?
The Deputy Prime Minister
Yes, and I would add that those 103,000 apprenticeships are twice the target number that had originally been set for this year. In total, we will deliver 250,000 more apprenticeships during this Parliament than Labour would have delivered if they had been in power. We believe that apprenticeships are a tried, tested and successful way of getting people from full-time education into full-time work. That is what we are absolutely dedicated to deliver.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
The recent referendum showed an enormous majority of the British people in favour of first past the post for British elections. May I suggest to the Deputy Prime Minister that a return to first past the post for European elections would be equally popular and that the Government should legislate accordingly?
The Deputy Prime Minister
We have probably had enough referendums on electoral systems for one Parliament. I, for one, will not be rushing to return to that issue any time soon.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
T10. Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell us what plans are in place to inform voters of the proposed changes to the House of Lords, particularly regarding an election in 2015—and how much will that cost?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The costs will, of course, be dependent on the final shape of the reforms—on exactly how large the House of Lords is and what proportion of its Members will be elected, and so forth. We have made suggestions on these issues, but we have been entirely open about wanting to listen to alternative suggestions with an open mind. That is why the Joint Committee process, which brings people together from both Houses to look at this in greater detail, is immensely important not only for improving the proposals but for giving the public a chance to scrutinise the proposals, as the hon. Gentleman suggests.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
As police investigations into phone hacking have been going on for some considerable time, is there not now a strong case for having a public inquiry, as requested from the Front Bench by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), particularly in view of the latest information about the hacking of a murdered person’s phone. That is so disgraceful that a public inquiry is absolutely essential.
The Deputy Prime Minister
I totally understand the instinct for wanting something more to be done than the current police investigations. If we want the truth established, however, and if we want to turn allegations into facts and then to hold people to account and, where necessary and justified, to see prosecutions delivered, I strongly suggest to the hon. Gentleman that it is in his interest and that of all who want to see the truth properly exposed that we allow the police to get on with the investigation and ruthlessly pursue the facts and the evidence, wherever they might lead.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
T11. With the whole country gripped by Southend mania, in the knowledge that it is the finest seaside resort with a pier in the world and entirely deserving of city status, will the Minister tell us when local residents in Southend can expect the crowning to take place?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I recognise the enthusiasm for the Southend bid, which I know is shared by many other Members who come from other places applying for city status. This will work its way through in the normal way, and I know that the hon. Gentleman will be waiting for the results with bated breath.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
What comparison has been made between the system of individual electoral registration operating in Northern Ireland and the one that operates in the rest of the United Kingdom?
The Deputy Prime Minister
We have learned all the lessons about the flaws in the electoral register here. That is exactly what we are seeking to address, not least by looking at the experience in Northern Ireland and elsewhere.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
T12. I wish to place on record my admiration for the ambition shown by the Deputy Prime Minister, but does he not agree that if he sticks to his present programme and allows the first elections to the House of Lords to be held in 2015, it is over-ambitious—even according to his own test—to hold them in the same month and year as the next rural district elections and the next general election?
The Deputy Prime Minister
“Ambition” was clearly intended as faint praise, and I will take it in that spirit. I think we have shown in past elections that the problems involved in the principle of combined elections can be overcome, as long as there is a clear distinction between the mandates for the bodies that are being elected on the same day.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
As the Deputy Prime Minister’s right hon. Friend the Business Secretary felt that there were clear grounds for a full referral of the BSkyB takeover to the competition authorities on the basis of plurality, will he tell the Prime Minister, in the light of the latest shocking developments, that it would be totally unacceptable to wave through that takeover, and that he should put a stop to the dirty deal being hatched by the Culture Secretary with News Corp?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman will know, as he has followed events very closely, that the competition aspect was determined by the European Commission. It cleared the transaction on competition grounds. The decision will be made by the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, acting in a quasi-judicial manner. He will not consult me, the Prime Minister or any other member of the Government while reaching his decision, and he is meticulously following the advice supplied to him by Ofcom and other regulators.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
The coalition agreement committed the Government to setting up a fund to support people with disabilities who wish to stand for election—a move that was also recommended by the cross-party Speaker’s Conference. Following the conclusion of the Government’s consultation on the matter, will the Deputy Prime Minister update the House on the progress being made towards that goal?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who has taken a great interest in this matter and has been remorseless in asking the Government when they will deliver on their commitments. We are determined to do so. As my hon. Friend said, the consultation ended recently, and we are keen to make progress as soon as we can.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
In a leaked letter, Nico Heslop wrote:
“we are worried about the impact…to build social housing for families”
to rent, and added:
“23,000 could be lost…disproportionately impacting on families and…children.”
Why was that information not shared with Parliament? What else is the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government holding back, and why should anyone ever again believe anything that this Government say about housing and benefits?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I remind the hon. Gentleman that the manifesto on which he fought the election last year advocated a housing benefit cap. I assume that, like us, he advocated the cap because it is fair to those who do not receive benefits that those who do receive them cannot do so to the tune that would require someone in work to earn £35,000 or more. It is a fair proposal. Notwithstanding the contents of that leaked letter—which, in any case, was written six months ago; things have moved on since then—we have made it clear that when people, especially large families, need help they will be given that help, and that we will introduce transitional arrangements to provide it.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
On 5 April the Deputy Prime Minister said there was “a need to ensure” that reform of the other place did not “overlap” with the establishment of the West Lothian commission. Given that reform of the other place may take some time, can the Deputy Prime Minister reassure us that the West Lothian commission will be in place by the time of the Report stage and Third Reading of my private Member’s Bill on 9 September?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I can confirm that the commission that will look into the West Lothian question will be established this year.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree with the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport that the “fit and proper persons” test is irrelevant in the case of the merger between BSkyB and News International?
The Deputy Prime Minister
As I said earlier, the Culture Secretary is acting in a quasi-judicial role, he is doing so in line with advice that he has received from Ofcom and the Office of Fair Trading, and he is reflecting the legal position as it currently is. The hon. Lady may shake her head and wish that the law were different; she may wish that competition provisions could somehow be applied here, although the European Commission cleared the transaction on in competition grounds—but that is the legal position as we currently find it.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Sex discrimination and religious discrimination should have no place in our society, so I am pleased that the Government are bringing forward measures to reform the succession to the Crown. However, the discussions with other Commonwealth Governments do seem to be dragging on for a long time. What is my right hon. Friend doing to ensure that those discussions come to a speedy and successful conclusion?
The Deputy Prime Minister
As my hon. Friend knows, both the Prime Minister and I have made it clear that we think there is a strong case for looking at the rules of the succession, as they clearly need updating in this day and age, but it is not quite as simple as that, because this is subject to consultation with all Commonwealth Governments. Discussions at official level are taking place between this Government and Commonwealth Governments. I acknowledge that that is not a very rapid process, but it is right that we should deal with this sensitive topic as collaboratively as possible with other Commonwealth Governments.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
At the recent British-Irish Council, which I understand the Deputy Prime Minister chaired, was there any discussion of the economic impact of different levels of aviation taxes, given that for a long-haul flight from the UK that is currently levied at £85 a head, whereas from Ireland the tax is just €3?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I am aware that the Treasury is undertaking a consultation on that subject, but it did not come up in discussions at the British-Irish Council.
Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)
Pursuant to the answer that the Deputy Prime Minister has just given to the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), does the Deputy Prime Minister not understand that his constant answer that negotiations with Commonwealth countries about reforming the Act of Settlement are ongoing sounds rather like an excuse for inaction, given that no Commonwealth country has shown anything but respect, reverence and adoration for our female monarch for the past half century?
The Deputy Prime Minister
We cannot just do something about it. [Hon. Members: “He didn’t!”] No, the hon. Gentleman did not, for 13 years.
I totally accept—I have spoken publicly about this—that it seems a little anachronistic that we have rules of succession that appear to discriminate against women, and that clearly should be looked at, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) rightly pointed out, this affects many other Governments as well, and it would be wrong of us to act in haste when we need to act in a way that is open and following discussions—not negotiations, but discussions—between ourselves and other Commonwealth Governments.