Europe
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. The one question I would pose to the Labour Opposition is simply this: what is their opinion on the referendum? Do they want one now, do they want one later or do they not want one at all? We need to hear an answer to that.
I shall focus on the European Union in the context of the amount of trade we do with it, which is substantial. We have four times as much trade with the European Union as with the whole of the Commonwealth, so let us get that into perspective. It is a market some 500 million strong—a significant market, which happens to be the biggest single market in the world, accounting for up to a fifth of the world’s gross domestic product. That is the scale of what we are talking about today, and it is why I hope that if and when we have a referendum we will say yes, but on the back of having reformed the EU.
I like local government, but that does not mean to say that it should not be reformed, and I apply the same logic to the European Union. It is really important that we reform it, and the Prime Minister has signalled that.
Michael Connarty
The hon. Gentleman has twice mentioned reform. Can he, unlike the Government Front-Bench team or anyone else who has spoken, give us the specifics about what needs reform? We do not want to hear about just a vague reform; let us hear the hon. Gentleman’s vision of reform, as it may tie up with the vision of other Members, although it may not.
Neil Carmichael
That is an excellent question. I shall talk about three areas where reform needs to take place and will take place under this coalition Government and the next Conservative Government.
Ironically, the first area is the common agricultural policy. It needs to be radically changed so that farmers face less bureaucracy and are able to farm more easily; for that, the strictures of the CAP need to be altered. The chamber for such a change is, I think, the Council of Ministers.
Oliver Colvile
Does my hon. Friend agree that we should also make sure that we bring UK fishing waters back under UK control, so we need a big reform of the common fisheries policy?
Neil Carmichael
We would also need to look at—I think—the Marine Act 1986 if we wanted to make that a consistent strategy. I agree with my hon. Friend’s important point, but we should not overlook the other legislation that governs our access to our waters.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that, like the Welsh Agriculture Minister Alun Davies, we should be in there at the heart of the negotiations? If we are to get a proper deal on the CAP, we should be seen not as the country that is trying to leap out of the Union, but as a country at the heart of the negotiations.
Neil Carmichael
That is exactly right, and I think the Prime Minister has spelt out exactly how we are going to be at the heart of those negotiations. We are really talking turkey this time; we are saying that things have to change, and we are bringing the full force of this coalition Government behind that direction of change. The hon. Lady is right: we have to be in on the act; we have to be constructive; and we have to make sure that Europe nevertheless understands that we pack a punch. We pack a punch by eventually having a referendum.
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Neil Carmichael
No, as I am running out of time.
The first area in need of reform, then, is the common agricultural policy. The second—and we heard the Prime Minister signal this—is energy, in connection with the single market. We should be thinking about extending the single market to other areas, and energy is ripe for it.
I know that many people currently envisage what would effectively be the nationalisation of energy policy by European countries which are worried about their security of supply and how they can deal with such matters as reductions in carbon dioxide emissions. We therefore need to think carefully about how we can apply energy to the single market. There are two key words that we should be using, and one is competition. We need more competition: we need a competitive Europe generally, but we need a competitive market in energy specifically, because we need to be able to sell energy to other countries more easily than we do at present and because the development of a different tapestry of energy production systems will require a more open, flexible market.
There is a specific need for energy to be in the single market, but there is a desire for it as well, not just in Britain but in other countries, notably Germany. I have talked to representatives of the BDI—the German equivalent of the CBI—who are interested in the possibility that energy could become part of a more competitive, effective single market. I believe that the processes in which we are already engaging will eventually produce a single market that is more robust, more competitive and more flexible.
Alex Cunningham
The CBI is interested in employment law. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would hazard a reply to the question posed earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey). Do he and his party hope to reduce workers’ rights by repatriating powers in that area?
Neil Carmichael
Absolutely not. We do not want to “reduce workers’ rights”, as the hon. Gentleman puts it, but we do want to ensure that more people can be employed. That is being made possible by the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, which is probably an Act by now. It copies legislation introduced by the German Chancellor who, at the time, was none other than Chancellor Schröder of the SPD—the Social Democratic party of Germany—to make it easier for small firms to employ people. Those are the sort of measures that we should be introducing here, and we are starting to do exactly that.
Neil Carmichael
No, because I am running out of time. I was asked specifically which policy areas we should be changing. I have dealt with the second, and I now want to talk about the third, which, although more long-term, is critical.
What are we going to do about the Council of Ministers? It needs to be more transparent, and it needs to have more capacity. I think that we can provide the answer to the democratic deficit in two ways. First, this Parliament and the Parliaments of the other member states must become more interactive, engaging in the kind of discussions that take place in the Council. We need to hear more about the agenda, we need to hear more about what is actually said and done, and we need to hear more about how we as parliamentarians can influence all that through our own national Parliaments. The second way in which that can be beneficial is in challenging the effective supremacy of the Commission in ensuring that treaties work as they should, which drives a hole into the argument about the European Parliament’s position that I have heard mentioned several times in the debate today.
There are a great many areas of policy that we can change, but let me canter through the ones that I have mentioned. First, we need to act immediately to deal with the common agricultural policy. We are already too late for 2012, as we are now in 2013, but there are changes on which we should now be insisting. Secondly, we need to extend the single market to energy—although not just to energy: I could have mentioned the digital economy and financial services. Thirdly, there is the constitutional aspect, which I think is central to what the Prime Minister said in his speech.
If we can deliver on some or all of those areas— policy, the single market and the construction of the European Union itself—we shall have something really interesting to say to the electorate at the time of the in/out referendum. Meanwhile, we shall be protecting and, indeed, strengthening our interests. Above all, we shall be producing a better Europe, because it will be more flexible, more competitive, more transparent and more democratic.
Finally, I want to talk about President Obama. It is true that he said we should remain in the EU, but he is not the only American President to have said that: every single one has since Dwight Eisenhower in the 1950s. It is a consistent message, therefore, and we should listen to it, but the clear message we are getting from our electorate is this: “Make a difference in Europe. Reform it where necessary. Make it more flexible. Make it more competitive. Make it more useful to us, and make it less intrusive.” I can take that case to my constituents in Stroud, valleys and vale, and to businesses and everyone else who has a clear interest in protecting Britain’s interests through having a reformed and effective Europe.
Oral Answers to Questions
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Hague
Of course, we regularly discuss with countries all around Latin America the importance of self-determination for the Falkland Islanders and our absolute commitment to that. I believe that one of the most effective impacts on public opinion and Governments in Latin America in recent months has been the fact that Falkland Islanders themselves have been going to many countries and explaining the history of their islands and their attachment to self-determination.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I note the excellent work of our ambassador and embassy in Chile. Does the Secretary of State agree that our relationship with Chile is particularly important, particularly when it comes to our situation with the Falklands and also Antarctica?
Mr Hague
Yes, it is a very good and important relationship and we have built it up further. For instance, the UK is now the top destination for Chilean students receiving Government grants. The links between our countries are growing, and the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), is heading to Chile tomorrow.
Antarctic Bill
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Neil Carmichael
Following the Prime Minister’s statement, may I add my sympathies to those who have lost loved ones at this difficult time and concur with the thrust of all the questions put to him?
Let me return to clause 5 of the Bill, which we were debating an hour ago. We currently have a good opportunity to test clause 5, because amendment 2 is provoking a constructive debate about its purposes. It is important to bear in mind just how vulnerable some parts of Antarctica are, particularly the Southern ocean, which is of decisive importance to the environment, not least because it absorbs up to 40% of carbon dioxide. It therefore plays a major part in the overall global environment. It is also important to note that the Southern ocean has a considerably more complex food chain than might at first be apparent, so it is all the more important to ensure that it is protected. That is why we are right to support clause 5 as it stands—because it not only ensures that protection is the order of the day, but that action can be taken if something goes wrong. That is implicit in clause 5.
Kerry McCarthy
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the seas in the area. Does he share my disappointment that the Commission for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources failed to agree proposals for two marine reserves in the Southern ocean, one in the Ross sea and one in east Antarctica? Does he agree that it is important not just to protect the ice mass, as it were—the land in Antarctica—but to look for environmental protection for the oceans as well?
Neil Carmichael
I am grateful for that intervention. The Bill looks into the marine aspects of Antarctica as well. Obviously we would be building on such measures in different ways, and although the Bill is specific about the provisions that the hon. Lady has already outlined, I take note of what she has said. Indeed, my interest in this area will lead me to discuss later the matter of promoting the protection of the Southern ocean.
Let me emphasise the value of clause 5 in connection not just with preparation, but with contingency planning. That is where clause 5 comes into its own, because it makes it clear that contingency planning is necessary, and it is easy to justify in connection with the rest of the Bill.
Philip Davies
I absolutely accept my hon. Friend’s point, but surely he would accept that under the current arrangements, with the 1994 Act and annex V, people are already required to produce a management plan, which, as I see it, is not greatly different from what is proposed in clause 5. Does he therefore accept that there is still some doubt about whether clause 5 is as necessary as he says?
Neil Carmichael
Clause 5 extends the preparation from simply producing a management plan to contingency planning. Contingency planning requires one to assess risk—to be well aware of what the risks are and how great they can be in the Antarctic. I believe we are extending something that is already good, and I am grateful for the suggestion, which we have heard today, that we are building on existing good practice. Clause 5 is a significant step in the right direction in ensuring that contingency measures are taken, because as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) noted, we have had accidents. Those accidents have involved shipping and they have been significantly damaging to the ocean, and we do not want to see more of them, especially on Antarctica.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
I commend my hon. Friend and parliamentary neighbour for introducing this important Bill. Antarctica is one of the last great wildernesses in the world, and it is essential for the world environment to preserve it and not to subjugate it under commercial interests. This Bill can apply only to British citizens and British organisations in the British Antarctic territories, so has my hon. Friend had any discussion with any of the other countries that have interests in Antarctica to find out whether they are thinking about enacting similar legislation?
Neil Carmichael
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. Yes, I have had such discussions, and I was quite surprised to find out just how far some other countries have gone. The Netherlands provides a good example. It is already further on than we are in taking legislative action on Antarctica. I met a Netherlands member of Parliament during the climate change conference in Doha, and I was impressed with the level of legislative detail the country had gone into in respect of Antarctica. I have talked, too, to representatives of Chile and noted their interest in carrying out a similar policy. I am pleased to have an opportunity to confirm that there is a memorandum of understanding between Chile and the UK on Antarctica matters. That paves the way for more international co-operation and demonstrates that nation states are taking the issue seriously.
Bob Stewart
I hope what I am about to say will be about new clause 1, and it will be very quick. Is it not for the United Nations to co-ordinate international action?
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. The Bill’s promoter knows that that question has nothing to do with new clause 1, so I would be grateful if he would now get back to new clause 1.
Neil Carmichael
I am grateful for the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), which gives me the opportunity to underline the fact that there is a treaty, that various nation states have signed it and that they have an interest in new clause 1. New clause 1 is unlikely to be discussed in the United Nations. I am fairly confident of saying that without contradiction, but I take into account, of course, your observation, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Mr Nuttall
Surely the point is that all the contracting parties will have an interest in ensuring that the treaty works properly?
Neil Carmichael
That is absolutely right. One interesting point about new clause 1—this is one reason why we should not support it—is that more and more nation states are showing an interest in Antarctica. That brings pressure in respect of challenges to the Antarctica environment as well as numbers. Some of the new arrivals are not as interested as we are in making sure that the area is properly protected and that responsible actions are taken. By passing this legislation, we apply international pressure, ensuring that other nation states that need to do the same get on with the process and that the international focus on what is important for Antarctica—the protection of the continent—continually remains a top priority.
Amendment 1 deals with historic sites and monuments. It is an interesting amendment and it is right to discuss it because it provides an opportunity to make a very important point. The point is that the provisions relate to who is doing something, not to where the action is being taken. If we wanted to take action to preserve the hut of Captain Robert Scott and his colleagues, the fact that it is in what might be described as the New Zealand slice of Antarctica would not prevent us from doing so. As we would be going there to preserve the hut, British law would apply to our efforts to ensure that it was looked after properly.
While I have a huge amount of sympathy with the thrust of amendment 1, and while I think that the hon. Member for Bury North is absolutely right to remind us that we need to have the capacity to deal with all monuments and sites of historical interest, it is with the British people, and those connected with Britain, that clause 15 deals, and they are more than welcome to pursue such priorities throughout the continent of Antarctica. I therefore do not think that the amendment is necessary, although I do think that it has given us a useful opportunity to reinforce the point that everyone in our jurisdiction would be covered by the clause. Indeed, as the Bill’s promoter, I have welcomed the opportunity to comment on all three of what I consider useful amendments—not because I think that they should be included in the Bill, but because the House has been able to discuss them all properly and make some important points.
Let me summarise those points. With regard to the cost-benefit analysis proposed in new clause 1, the Bill is financially neutral. I do not think we should add any extra burden of bureaucracy, but I do think we should make it clear that the real test is co-operation between all interested nation states in ensuring that the continent is properly protected, and ensuring that the measures on which we continue to work are properly supported and implemented by all of them. That is the test that I shall continue to press for beyond the passage of this Bill, because I believe it is critical.
The main issue in relation to amendment 2, which proposes the removal of clause 5, is that we are building on existing measures—and quite right too. It is good that the House has had an opportunity to test the validity of the clause, because it is important. It will ensure not only that there is a line of responsibility for operators, visitors, tourists and so on, but that they must have contingency plans. In the absence of those two measures, such people would make themselves vulnerable to punishment. The clause also includes the important provision that people and organisations should be properly insured for whatever they may do. The clause puts into domestic law a clear set of responsibilities for operators visiting Antarctica.
As I have already made abundantly clear, amendment 1, which refers to historic sites and monuments, is unnecessary, because clause 15 relates to the people who are doing something rather than where the action is taken. However, it has provided another useful opportunity for me to make it clear that we are taking responsible action, and enabling others to take responsible action, in protecting monuments and sites of historical interest.
Let me end by expressing my gratitude for the opportunity that the debate has given us so far to expose and develop some of the elements of the Bill.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) on getting the Bill to this stage, and I thank him for the time and trouble he took to visit Antarctica and his determination and commitment to securing environmental protection in the Antarctic.
I shall begin by setting out the overriding architecture of the protections currently in place for the Antarctic, as there seems to be some confusion about that. The Antarctic treaty was signed in 1959 by 21 countries. It has several purposes.
Neil Carmichael
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I am grateful for all the comments that have been made throughout the debates on the Bill, not least on Second Reading and in Committee. There has been a huge amount of all-party agreement about the purposes of the Bill.
Martin Horwood
May I take this opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend and neighbour in Gloucestershire on bringing the Bill this far? The Bill is vital for the future of Antarctica and the wider environment that it represents. He has the full support of the Liberal Democrats for the measure.
Neil Carmichael
I thank my hon. Friend very much. I appreciate that, not only because the Liberal Democrats are part of the coalition Government, but because it is good to know that all parties support the Bill. I am grateful for the shadow Minister’s comments earlier on the Opposition’s support for the Bill. The Bill is important precisely because we all care about the future of Antarctica and recognise its vulnerability, as well as its awesome size and climate. The widespread agreement on the Bill is therefore impressive and reassuring to me and to others who have worked on it.
I also appreciate the number of people who have congratulated me in one way or another on the work that we have done thus far. I reassure the House that I will not stop trying to ensure that the Act—if the Bill becomes an Act—is used as an instrument to encourage other nation states to do what we have done and underline the need to protect Antarctica for the foreseeable future. In my book, that means a very long time.
As I have informed the House, I visited Antarctica at the beginning of the new year. I went with the British Antarctic Survey, supported by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I was pleased to have the opportunity to go there for several reasons. The first was, funnily enough, to understand more about why this measure really matters. That became increasingly obvious the closer I got to Rothera, the main base of the British Antarctic Survey, where we have up to 90 people working in various ways.
This is a good opportunity to pay tribute to the work of the British Antarctic Survey. What it does really matters. I would like to emphasise the extraordinary amount of scientific research that is undertaken at Rothera and on other bases. We were there for only five days, but we looked at all sorts of research projects. For example, there is research into the future of the Southern ocean, its role in absorbing carbon, its changing food chain and the changing temperatures of the water at different levels. All of that matters because we need to know how our changing climate is influencing things and what the consequences might be for that continent and the various crustaceans, fish and other wildlife living in and around Antarctica. It was impressive and encouraging to see that the work being done to study the ocean is of such huge value in terms of science, research and commitment.
Oliver Colvile
I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware of this, but in the very depths of the waters of Antarctica, creatures are still being discovered. I do not know whether the British Antarctic Survey talked to him about that. It is important not only that we carry out a large amount of research in that area, but that we do not endanger those species.
Neil Carmichael
Absolutely, and I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Not only is he right about the new discoveries, but another interesting point is that existing marine life is taking a different shape in terms of breeding and growth and so on because of the changing temperatures. All that is part of the science that we need to see, which, of course, has been helped by really interesting technology, most particularly a glider—for gliding through the ocean, not the air—that is able to co-ordinate its own pathway and send valuable signals back to Rothera about what it is finding throughout the ocean, from top to bottom and along the bottom. We should be taking note and celebrating that kind of research and science. There was other scientific work as well.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend has explained that he went to Rothera, which is one of the year-round stations. As he will know, however, there are also two field stations: Fossil Bluff and Sky Blu, with Fossil Bluff being nearest to Rothera. Did he have the opportunity to visit the research stations?
Neil Carmichael
No, I did not get to Sky Blu although I heard an awful lot about it. It is a very important part of the work by the British Antarctic Survey and will remain so for some time. It is excellent that it is doing so well and contributing so much to our knowledge base about what is happening, and what will and could happen on that continent.
We were also told about long-term record keeping of weather conditions, temperatures and so forth. That is important because we cannot just take a snapshot now and make a judgment; we need to go back some years. The British Antarctic Survey has been working on climate change, looking for patterns and studying changes for nearly 20 years. That knowledge base is important and it is used by others as a benchmark for measuring developments in climate change.
Jake Berry
My hon. Friend is speaking interestingly about the work of the British Antarctic Survey. Did he get the opportunity to see some of the work that it has been doing on ice cores to measure the historical carbon dioxide content in our atmosphere, which is hugely important in global warming and climate change?
Neil Carmichael
Yes I did, and the ice cores are from drilling down into ice that is 800,000 years old. That tells us a huge amount about what was happening to the air, because trapped within the ice are very small air bubbles that contain strong messages and signals about what life was like all those years ago. Ice core research is a huge logistical exercise. First it has to be drilled and transported, and then it needs to go to Cambridge for proper evaluation.
That brings me to the important role that the British Antarctic Survey plays in providing logistics, not just to the scientists—although that is crucial—but to visitors and other structures. I want to emphasise the international nature of the British Antarctic Survey. It is able to help other nation states in their work and I was particularly struck by the good relationships that exist between the various countries represented, in connection with scientific discoveries and the work they do.
As I mentioned in connection with clause 5, the memorandum of understanding between Britain and Chile was signed before Christmas and is clearly much appreciated by the Chileans. Britain also has relationships with other European countries, which serves to enhance the quality of the work—not least because a Dutch contingent of scientists at Rothera is doing important work in the invertebrates department—and shows the level of co-operation. Co-operation is necessary in the Antarctic continent because the risks are great—they really are great. Not being able or willing to help others would be a danger, but that danger does not exist because of those good relationships.
The British Antarctic Survey performs another important role: the simple fact of being there. It is important that Britain has a proper location in Antarctica that it supports and promotes. I was impressed by the level of dedication shown by everybody at Rothera and in all parts of the Survey’s activities. Ultimately, they are there for their work, and for their commitment to science and to the continent. However, by being there, they also show Britain’s commitment to the continent. That has to be noted, celebrated and properly recognised. For those reasons, I was pleased to go to Antarctica and meet people from the British Antarctic Survey, to thank them for all they have done, reassure them of my personal support and the continued support of the Government, and underline the fact that by visiting them we are signalling that we appreciate the things they do. We understand the stresses and strains involved in their work, and we want them to know that it is properly appreciated. I thank the British Antarctic Survey for giving me an opportunity to see all of that.
Mr Nuttall
While my hon. Friend was on his visit, did any of the scientists he met express any views about the Bill?
Neil Carmichael
Yes, they did. They were extraordinarily appreciative of it going through Parliament, and thanked me for promoting it. The Bill was one of the reasons I was there, and I learnt a lot about the impact it will have on Antarctica. I saw the appreciation from members of the British Antarctic Survey, and noticed that other countries were also appreciative of the Bill, particularly Chile. I was with the Chileans for some time, as we flew to Chile before we got to Antarctica. I had the opportunity of visiting the Chilean Antarctic Institute, which is the Chilean equivalent of the British Antarctic Survey. Like us, it has a strong science wing and recognises the importance of logistics—although it does not use its own, but accesses other logistical services—and like us, it recognises the importance of international co-operation. In terms of regional geopolitics, that co-operation is all the more important given the issues relating to the Falkland Islands, Argentina and other nation states. The presence and commitment that we have demonstrated in Antarctica for decades and the relationships we are developing with nearby nation states are necessary to ensure that our broader interests are protected and enhanced.
Jake Berry
The legislation relating to Antarctica is a template that we should seek to replicate across the globe. It is an exemplar of co-operation between countries that can put their national differences aside. Does my hon. Friend share my pride in the fact that Britain is front and centre in pushing forward international co-operation to protect what is probably the last unspoilt area of the globe? We can take national pride in that, and I believe my hon. Friend should take personal pride in the huge contribution that he is making through his Bill.
Neil Carmichael
I thank my hon. Friend for his generous intervention. I must emphasise the pride that I take in Britain’s leadership in this area. We have led from the front, and we continue to do so. If my Bill is passed, I will ensure that that work continues through the activities that I will undertake. I will do that even if it is not passed—although I hope it will be—because I am determined that Britain’s leadership should continue in all the areas that I have described. I am very proud of it.
I was particularly proud to visit the British club in Antarctica, where Sir Ernest Shackleton based himself during his attempt to rescue his men nearly 100 years ago. That whole building is laden with history. It was fascinating to walk into a room that had remained relatively unchanged since he was there making those decisions and bold moves to save his men, and showing exemplary leadership and commitment to those he led. It was quite moving. Sir Ernest Shackleton is another example of the tremendous leadership that this country has demonstrated, both personally through people such as him, and nationally through our overall direction of travel on that continent.
We must also salute Captain Robert Scott. Yes, his reputation took a slight dip, but people are quite properly recognising the sheer enormity of his achievement in getting to the south pole. Also, while he was going there and attempting to come back, he was still committed to carrying out scientific research. It is not often remembered, but it should be noted that temperature changes and other data were being collected right up to the end.
Oliver Colvile
Is my hon. Friend aware that Plymouth was Captain Scott’s home town? The Plymouth marine laboratories have done an enormous amount of research on climate change, and there is a great tradition in Plymouth of ensuring that that continues to happen.
Neil Carmichael
Absolutely. I have been to the university in Plymouth. I presented a paper on restructuring the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but my thoughts were not taken into account by the then Prime Minister. There we are. I enjoyed my time there, however.
My constituency of Stroud has a strong connection with the Scott memory. Sir Peter Scott, the son of Captain Scott, established the Slimbridge Wildfowl Trust there. That was emblematic of Captain Scott’s wish—almost his last wish, in fact—that his son should get involved in that kind of activity. It is also emblematic of the fact that my constituency is interested in protecting the environment and is prepared to take the necessary steps to do so. I am proud of that connection between my constituency and Antarctica. One reason why I am so pleased to be able to take the Bill through the House of Commons is that there is a huge synergy between protecting the environment in my constituency and the need to do so in Antarctica. My constituency link and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) are strong and should be clearly stated.
I touched on the foreign policy aspect of the legislation when I mentioned Chile and Argentina. It is important to note that other nation states are becoming interested in Antarctica. Just 12 nation states signed the treaty in 1959, but now the number expressing an interest in Antarctica exceeds 50. Unlike us, however, some of those nation states do not have aims and objectives consistent with a determination to protect the environment. We should be using our influence to ensure, first, that all nation states respect the idea that Antarctica should remain properly protected and not be exploited, and secondly that it remains demilitarised. It is important to state and restate both those points, because we have to remember that Antarctica is pristine, vulnerable, pivotal to our climate change issues and has no Government. It relies on interested nation states coming to an agreement, including on territorial claims, about which we have heard in the past few weeks and whose contest the treaty suspends. We should take note of that.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend makes a good point about the work of the Antarctic treaty consultative meeting—the highest level of government controlling the area—which will next occur in Belgium in May. Does he have any plans to attend that meeting on behalf of the House?
Neil Carmichael
I have no immediate plans, but it is important that we are properly represented at such gatherings. I know that the Government will ensure that their views are expressed and their contributions made—given the Minister’s excellent performance, we can be confident of that—but my hon. Friend makes a good point. As I have said already, I am committed to ensuring that other nation states do the right thing, behave in the right way and take the appropriate steps to improve and protect Antarctica.
Political leadership is extremely important and it is right that Britain plays a significant leadership role, because we were one of the first nation states to show an interest in Antarctica and have been consistent on it ever since. We have always conducted ourselves responsibly—I do not expect to be contradicted on that—and we should be encouraging others to follow that example.
We debated the Bill in detail on Report, but it is important briefly to canter through its key parts.
Oliver Colvile
Has my hon. Friend had any discussions with the Irish? I understand that they have not been quite as quick to sign. They have accepted what they need to do, but they have not signed. I am concerned about why they have not done so. Have there been discussions with the Irish Government?
Neil Carmichael
That is one Government whom I have not spoken to about Antarctica. I met an awful lot of Irish people yesterday, but we did not actually talk about Antarctica—we talked about art. My hon. Friend is right, however, that we need to encourage nation states to do the same. There is a question not just of quantity, but of quality. We are legislating thoroughly on our agreements under the treaty, but some countries have not been as thorough, and we need to ensure that they become more so. The example of the Netherlands and ourselves is the right one.
Where we are seeing, basically, expressions of commitment to the treaty, we need to see more, and we certainly need to see nation states such as the United States ensuring that they, too, take action. I have already been in touch with environmentalists in the United States to see how we might encourage a proper debate about the issue in Congress. I am working on these things. I intend to encourage all nation states to take the right action at an event later this year, when I hope to gather their representatives and explain what we have done, why we have done it and why they should do the same. That is absolutely right.
Let me continue with my brief canter by underlining the importance of encouraging operators, visitors, tourists and everybody else involved not just to plan for their trip, but to plan contingency measures, to recognise that they have to behave in a properly responsible way and that insurance is necessary just in case things go wrong. If things go wrong, we need to be sure that tidying-up operations can take place in a timely, efficient and comprehensive manner. That is one part of the Bill that we effectively discussed in our debate about clause 5, and quite right too. I think we all agree that it is a good clause and part of that whole process.
Jake Berry
I want to raise the issue of insurance, which is not covered in clause 5. As my hon. Friend knows, it is covered in clause 6—there is some cross-reference between the two clauses. Does he know—I must admit that I do not—whether there is a developed and advanced insurance product readily available to people seeking to go to Antarctica today, or hopefully after the Bill becomes law, that they could effectively sign up to now?
Neil Carmichael
We have discussed insurance in some detail, because there are different types of insurance—in the shipping world, the tourist world and so forth. Obviously more products will be developed; the key thing is that people have to demonstrate that they are properly insured. I would have thought that things such as self-insurance and so forth will not meet the criteria set out. As more and more people wish to go to the Antarctic and the demand for more complex insurance mechanisms increases, I am sure that more will be developed. The key point, as I have said, is that there is no governance of Antarctica; therefore we need special dispensation through the treaty and the legislation, as in the case of shipping, to ensure that appropriate insurance cover is always made available. We discussed that issue in the consultation process, before the Committee stage. That is where we are; so yes, we should see more and more insurance packages becoming available as appropriate.
The second part of the Bill extends protection to flora and fauna, including invertebrates, by ensuring that we do not import problems into Antarctica and so on. That is absolutely right and proper. When I visited Antarctica I noticed a keen interest in that aspect of the Bill. I was pleased to be able to reassure those who were concerned about the risks to the various crustaceans and so forth that we were talking about that we have taken action in the Bill. That is really quite good.
The other aspect of the Bill is the monuments and historical sites. We could talk at length about those; the key point is that we need a responsible way of protecting them. We need to ensure that measures can be taken to put appropriate support mechanisms in place. We benefit from the tremendous work of the various trusts, organisations and others who are interested in doing this, and I pay tribute to them.
Those are the key parts of the Bill. They add up to a very strong commitment by Britain to do the right thing for Antarctica—by that, I mean to protect its environment, making sure that British interests are still prominent, and continue to work in an international framework to encourage other nation states to do the same. That is the direction of travel of the Bill, and I intend it to follow it with vigour—and, hopefully, with the continued support of colleagues.
I commend the Bill on Third Reading.
Antarctic Bill
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
I am grateful for the interest that so many people have shown in my Bill. I shall begin by talking about the Antarctic in general terms, before explaining why the Bill is so important and dealing with the key parts of it.
Many of us know where the Antarctic is, but let me be absolutely clear and say that it contains the south pole. It is the fifth largest continent in the world, and is one and a half times the size of the United States of America. So it is a big place, and hence an important place. The House may be interested to know that the first birth of a human being there occurred in 1978, so it really is exceptionally cold; I am sure that Members are able to make the link. The Antarctic is almost completely—98%—covered in ice, and if all that ice melted, we would find ourselves with a sea level about 60 metres higher than it currently is. The scale of the continent is formidable.
Our history in relation to the Antarctic goes back a long way, and the expeditions of Shackleton and Scott are emblematic of this country’s interest in it. I salute all who were involved in those expeditions, particularly Robert Scott’s last expedition. I shall say more about the subject later, but I think it important for us to recognise at this stage that Britain has always been very involved and interested in the Antarctic, as the Bill demonstrates and emphasises.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on having taken his Bill this far. He has not yet mentioned Argentina, which, I understand, also has a great interest in the Antarctic. Why does his Bill make no reference to that country?
Neil Carmichael
My hon. Friend asks a useful and important question, which, ironically, lies at the heart of the Bill. We have a treaty relationship which effectively controls our relationships with other nation states and our activities in the Antarctic. By ensuring that the treaty is applied to domestic law and is strengthened, we are strengthening our own British presence, and thus issuing a challenge in any dispute that we might have with the Argentine Government. That is one of the key reasons why the Bill should be allowed to proceed.
There are two more general points to be made in connection with the Bill—
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Before my hon. Friend moves on, this is probably my fault rather than his, but I am unclear as to whether the Bill will have any real impact, given that there are all these other international treaties. How will it make any impact whatever on our current structure of international obligations?
Neil Carmichael
That is an important question, and there are two points to make in response. First, by showing British leadership and demonstrating that the existing treaty arrangements are important to us and should be important to the other signatories, we will signal that we mean business in respect of international control, ownership and responsibility in the Antarctic. That will make dealing with the challenges we face easier. Secondly, we must be aware of other nations, notably China and Korea, becoming interested in the Antarctic for obvious reasons. We therefore need to protect and enhance our international structures to deal with that.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
May I assist the hon. Gentleman? One recent concern has been whether the proposed merger of the British Antarctic Survey and the National Oceanography Centre was sending the wrong signals. As he will be aware, the Science and Technology Committee, which is chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), produced a very good report recommending that that merger should not go ahead. I am pleased to see that in response to it the Government have today issued a statement confirming that those two bodies will not be merged. That sends a very good message to other countries with interests in the region, especially Argentina.
Neil Carmichael
I am grateful for that assistance from someone on the Opposition Front Bench. I was intending to celebrate the fact that that merger will not go ahead. That is exceptionally good news for the BAS, and I will discuss it in more detail later.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on introducing this Bill, which I strongly support as it represents a good step forward. I urge him to be positive about the future of Antarctica. There are millions of people around the world who want it to be a zone of peace, and a place for scientific research not mineral exploitation or exploration. There is great support for the preservation of the flora and fauna in the seas around the Antarctic, too, from many people in many countries—some of which may not have close relations with Britain. We must ensure that next year’s Antarctic conference asserts the need to preserve the fish stocks and mammals in the seas around Antarctica as things we can all learn from.
Neil Carmichael
The hon. Gentleman makes a key point. The current treaty arrangements include agreements that the continent be demilitarised and protected. Both those requirements are still upheld, and they are, of course, triumphs of the British contribution to the Antarctic, because it was our approach that achieved them. We should celebrate that.
I want to talk briefly about my personal interest in the Antarctic and its relevance to the people of my constituency. Sir Peter Scott is the son of Robert Scott. Robert Scott wrote to his wife at the end of his final expedition, expressing the hope that his son, who was two years of age, would later show an interest in the natural environment. Sir Peter Scott did precisely that. He established the Slimbridge wetlands centre and the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust, as well as Falklands Conservation. There is a direct link between the Antarctic and my constituency, therefore.
Interestingly, this morning I received an e-mail from a constituent, Roderick Rhys Jones, who is from Eastcombe. He reminded me that he was a constituent of mine and also noted that he went to a local school, so he has clearly been living in the area for quite some time. He drew my attention to the fact that 29 men and women have died in Antarctica in pursuit of science since 1944, when the permanent scientific base was set up by Britain. They died in fires, and as a result of falling down crevices and exposure to the appalling conditions. Monuments have been raised in memory of those scientists. The theme of my constituent’s e-mail is that we need to make sure that the people doing such important work on what is a very big, and quite dangerous, continent are protected.
I am a member of the Environmental Audit Committee. It did a fantastic piece of work on the Arctic. When we were discussing our conclusions, I was able to demonstrate that the “polluter pays” concept and the responsibilities of explorers and others in the Antarctic were also relevant to the Arctic, and our report made those points. I pay tribute to the Chair of the EAC, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley).
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on the progress he has made with this important Bill, of which I am pleased to be a co-sponsor. The EAC report relates only to the Arctic, but the principles in this Bill would be particularly important for the Arctic, because it faces immediate pressures, not least in respect of oil exploration. I therefore hope the Minister will learn from this Bill and incorporate the relevant aspects into the Government’s approach to the Arctic.
Neil Carmichael
I am grateful for the support I have received from my hon. Friend. We have worked together very effectively on the EAC, and I agree with what he says about the clear links between the two poles.
I want to mention two important recent anniversaries. The invasion of the Falklands took place three decades ago. The recent anniversary should serve to remind us of the importance of maintaining a strong and robust British presence not only in the Antarctic, but in the region as a whole.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that we should preserve the independence of the BAS? Having a BAS presence in the area would be a good way of showing our ongoing commitment to the Antarctic.
Neil Carmichael
My hon. Friend makes an important point. If we want to retain our presence in the region, including the Falklands, we have to do so in a meaningful way, and this Bill addresses that point. The British presence in the region matters to the region as well as to us, and it also matters to the other signatories of the various treaties.
Jeremy Corbyn
Does the hon. Gentleman accept, however, that any military presence in the Antarctic by any nation is illegal within the terms of the Antarctic treaty, and we should not think that the British claim to some of the Antarctic gives us any authority to place any kind of military equipment or people there?
Neil Carmichael
I have already noted that the Antarctic is demilitarised as a result of British action. It is recognised as a demilitarised zone by us and every other country and, to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question, it will clearly remain so. That should not stop us from addressing the broader issues and mentioning the Falklands, however.
The second anniversary is, of course, that of Robert Scott’s expedition. I wish to emphasise the reputation he has garnered for scientific work—for discovery and real interest in the Antarctic—and why it matters. I remind the House that the discovery of the first hole in the ozone layer was made in 1985 from the Antarctic. That scientific linkage involving issues that are connected with the environment but that are also central to our work on the Antarctic draws substantially from Robert Scott’s expeditions and his emphasis on scientific work.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend recognise that the first expedition, in 1901 to 1904, was based very much on science as well as exploration? Its scientists, including Mr Ferrar, Mr Hodgson, Louis Bernacchi and Edward Wilson, set a course that has now resulted in this extremely important Bill, because the science was so relevant to their expeditionary endeavours?
Neil Carmichael
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, because he is absolutely right about the science. We should salute and celebrate it, because the linkage between that earlier expedition and everything that has happened thereafter, including what is still happening today through the good work of the British Antarctic Survey, is a fundamental reminder of why it is so important. The history to which he refers is an important narrative in respect of my point, and I am immensely grateful to him for his support.
Let me now deal with the Bill itself. First, I must emphasise that it builds on existing treaties, which have already been amended. We have to go back to 1951 to find the first effective treaty, which was ratified in 1961, the year of my birth. That was a significant piece of legislation at the time I was arriving on the scene—although obviously not in the Antarctic itself! Twelve nations signed that treaty, and 50 nations are now involved in the Antarctic. That underlines the point I was making about China and other countries in response to my helpful colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies).
I should also pay tribute to the previous Government for the work they did in preparing the way for this Bill, which is similar but not the same as their Bill. They did some good work on that legislation, which emphasises the cross-party nature of the support on this matter, and I am grateful for that. A lot of consultation has taken place, both back in 2005 by those interested in the earlier Bill and more recently. I have also had meetings with a large number of organisations, and I want to list them all: the UK Antarctic Heritage Trust, whose tie I am wearing in a salute to it; the Antarctic Ocean Alliance; the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust in Slimbridge; the Scott Polar Research Institute; the British Mountaineering Council; the International Polar Foundation UK; Poles Apart Ltd; and above all, of course, the British Antarctic Survey.
I am conscious that members, scientists, supporters, managers and leaders of the BAS will be listening to this speech and watching this debate, because it is of immediate and direct interest to them. I want to thank everybody in the BAS for doing everything they have done over the years, because their efforts, the sacrifices they have sometimes made, and their extraordinary commitment, courage and tenacity in pursuing scientific endeavour are incredibly impressive, and this House should be grateful to them. I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) for being so helpful on this whole issue of the BAS, which is based in his constituency. I hope to visit Cambridge from time to time to see how well the BAS is getting on, because it certainly deserves support from this House and I shall be happy to give it.
The shadow Minister referred to the work of the Science and Technology Committee. I agreed with its conclusions, as did the Environmental Audit Committee, and I thank the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) for the work he did in driving through that report to underpin the overall strong support for the BAS. It was great that in the debate in the House of Lords the Senior Minister of State, Baroness Warsi, underlined the Government’s support for the British Antarctic Survey. It is interesting that there is a Senior Minister of State in the Foreign Office, and of course the Foreign Secretary is the First Secretary of State, so that Department contains a lot of powerful Ministers. The Minister here today is equally powerful, and I am pleased to see him in his place supporting the Bill. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is also involved in this because it relates to the future of the BAS. The Natural Environment Research Council made the right decision not to proceed with the merger, which was mentioned earlier, and instead to make sure that the BAS is properly independent and appropriately resourced. From this moment on, I pledge to support every one of its endeavours and make sure that it can undertake the work that it so necessarily does.
James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)
My hon. Friend says that he will do everything he can, and he has been a great advocate of this cause, both before being lucky enough to win a place in the private Member’s Bill ballot and subsequently, but he has not yet visited the Antarctic. Will he join me in urging the Minister to support a visit, so that he can use that experience not only on his Bill, but in the future?
Neil Carmichael
That is probably the best intervention I have ever taken, because it underlines the fact that I would really like to visit the Antarctic and support from hon. Friends for doing that is simply fantastic.
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend feel that he might need to lead quite a large delegation on such a visit?
Neil Carmichael
I can see where this is going. I know that the Minister is making notes as to when the visit should take place. There may be the need for some of us to keep each other warm in an appropriate way.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
How would the hon. Gentleman envisage hon. Members keeping each other warm?
Neil Carmichael
I am not going to go into the full details, but I think that single sleeping bags for those hon. Members who have so far expressed interest would be appropriate. The key point about visiting the Antarctic is that it is important to show interest, commitment and appropriate support to those there working on our behalf. That would be the real purpose of such a visit, and I would like to participate in one.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
My hon. Friend may not be visiting Antarctica any time soon, but he can visit Parliament square today, where the flag of the British Antarctic Territory proudly flies for the first time ever.
Neil Carmichael
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. I will certainly salute the flag, and I wish to thank him for his work as chairman of the all-party group on polar regions. We have worked very effectively together, and I am grateful to him for coming along to the debate. We will continue to work together because, as I have stressed, this is not just a matter of getting the Bill through Parliament, but a matter of what happens thereafter.
Let me speak about the details of the Bill, which I know hon. Members will have read with great interest. The two parts of the Bill, as I mentioned, build on treaty obligations, the need to maintain and where possible strengthen the British presence, and the good work that our scientists and explorers have done over two centuries. The first part deals with environmental emergencies, and enhances contingency planning for such emergencies. That is important because of the increasing pressure on the Antarctic. Part 1 raises the issue of liability and passes to operators and others the responsibility to make sure that they properly prepare for their activities.
The provisions for environmental emergencies cover the impact not of routine operations, but of accidents and unpredictable incidents that result in environmental damage—for example, ship groundings. There have been one or two shipping accidents. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) spoke about Argentina. The biggest single accident involved a ship from Argentina, which dispensed 600,000 litres of diesel, resulting in a huge $10 million bill for the clean-up. Appropriate contingency measures are important, and responsibility for accidents should be properly allocated. That is a useful point to make.
Part 1 also requires operators to secure adequate insurance, a point that has been discussed with my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). It is important to underline the obligation for operators to be properly insured for whatever they intend to do in the Antarctic.
Gavin Williamson
Does my hon. Friend agree that proper insurance of operators is increasingly important, especially with 95% of all tourist visits to Antarctica coming through the British Antarctic Territory?
Neil Carmichael
My hon. Friend makes an exceptionally pertinent point. The provision is partly aimed at the increased tourist interest. Part 1 is essential for ensuring that the Antarctic is protected.
Part 2 takes some protection measures further. It implements and strengthens conservation of Antarctic fauna and flora, and the environmental protection of marine plants and invertebrates would also be strengthened. It protects and promotes the conservation of British historical sites and monuments, which is important in the centenary year of Robert Scott’s final expedition. We should recognise the significance of those monuments in the history that I outlined earlier, because they symbolise the British presence and should be protected appropriately.
The Bill goes on to implement annex 2 of the treaty negotiated about 10 years ago. It is right that we move in that direction and put into domestic law agreements and processes that have been negotiated.
The Bill recognises our treaty obligations and demonstrates that British presence is important to us and will always be part not just of our desire to protect the Antarctic, but of our foreign policy. I am particularly pleased about that, and happy that the Foreign Office has been so helpful in preparing the Bill and that a Foreign Office Minister will be responding to the debate. Issues of insurance will be pored over by organisations. Shipping lines, for example, will clearly be interested in the Bill and I would be happy to discuss with them the implications of the changes. If the Bill proceeds to Committee, as I sincerely hope it does, that is what I expect to happen.
In conclusion, I am committed to protecting the Antarctic, committed to the British presence in the Antarctic, and committed to highlighting the need to protect such an important continent in the wider context of the environment. I am delighted that the links between my constituency and the Antarctic could be strengthened by a visit by me to the Antarctic in due course. I hope the House will support the Bill and give it a Second Reading.
Andrew Rosindell
I commend the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) and his Committee for its report, which has certainly made a contribution, but the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) might not be aware of the impact of the letter that the Minister recently received from the all-party polar regions group. I had his response today. There has been collaboration from all parties to end the proposal, with many of us working together on it, and all those who have spoken up against it should take some credit. I completely agree, however, with his commendation of that report.
Neil Carmichael
I referred to that report in my remarks, and although it was important, it was the icing on a big cake that had been cooking for quite a long time. A large number of submissions were made about protecting the British Antarctic Survey, and huge efforts were directed towards the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the NERC to prevent the merger from taking place.
Andrew Rosindell
The plan to merge the British Antarctic Survey with the National Oceanography Centre would have, in effect, disbanded the BAS, which could not only have had a devastating impact on Britain’s ability to continue to lead the world in polar research but diminished our standing and our perceived commitment to our overseas territories in the Antarctic and south Atlantic region.
The BAS is one of the world’s leading scientific research institutes, with five bases in the Antarctic and more than 400 staff in total. As the House will be aware, it has a long and distinguished history of carrying out research and surveys in the Antarctic and the surrounding regions. Undertaking most of the British research across that frozen continent, it plays an invaluable role in carrying out highly complicated and sophisticated scientific field research programmes in a way that is cost-effective for the UK taxpayer. Its work and expertise is stunning, and it is a truly great British institution. To have undermined its achievements by forcing upon it a merger with a separate organisation established for different objectives would have been a huge mistake.
The break-up of the BAS could not possibly have been in the interests of Britain, including our wider interests throughout the Antarctic and south Atlantic region. I therefore commend the decision that we have learned about today. However, I draw the House’s attention to the words of Professor Klaus Dodds, a leading academic on polar issues. He stated:
“One of the lessons we learnt in 1981 was that the proposed withdrawal of HMS Endurance, our ice patrol vessel, sent a signal to Argentina that we were losing interest in the region. Argentina is not likely to be invading the Falklands any time soon, but the Kirchner government might think that their best chance of taking over these overseas territories lies in simply waiting for the UK to cut costs and rationalise what we do there. To be clear, British Antarctic Survey and the UK’s credibility in the region lies in very strong part to the high quality science that is undertaken.”
It is clear that any attempt to dissolve the BAS, which I am pleased is now not to take place, would have sent precisely the wrong signal to the nations in the region that have displayed and continue to display a hostile attitude to Britain’s presence there.
The BAS is internationally renowned and has been responsible for many of the great polar discoveries, such as the hole in the ozone layer, which has had a huge impact over the past few decades. For the reasons that I have outlined and many others about which I could speak at length, to quote the former deputy director of the BAS, Robert Culshaw, “Britain needs BAS”. I am relieved that my words and those of many other people have been listened to on that vital topic and that the BAS will remain in operation, I hope, for many years to come.
May I also take this opportunity to mention the BAS scientists currently stationed at the south pole? As hon. Members may know, polar science is generally conducted over the summer months, with a skeleton crew manning the permanent bases over the winter. Right now, many of those staff are preparing to come back after a long and dark winter. Those men and women are essential to the running of the BAS, and it is important that they are given the recognition they deserve for their public service. On the other side of the planet, back in Cambridge, the BAS is gearing up for the summer, with ships and planes full of supplies and staff ready for the long months ahead. Many will be making the long voyage for the first time, and I cannot stress enough the importance of their work.
I am glad that the NERC has dropped the proposals to merge the BAS with the NOC, which could have had disastrous consequences and destroyed a national treasure. It is imperative that a new director is appointed as a matter of urgency so that the BAS can retain its upper management and continue its work in future.
In February, I will be fortunate enough to return to the Falkland Islands to attend a conference of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. While I am there, I hope to visit the BAS office in Stanley so that I can see at first hand some of the work that it is doing in the southern hemisphere. Indeed, the Falkland Islands is a fine example of the significance of our overseas territories to the work that we carry out in the Antarctic region. The Falkland Islands and South Georgia are important stepping stones in the Antarctic and make operations in the area significantly easier. It is also worth bearing in mind their importance to the Bill. Any expedition setting off from a British overseas territory officially becomes a British expedition and falls under the Antarctic Act 1994, under which British activities in Antarctica are regulated.
I welcome the increased global interest in the region, but it is not without its problems. There are now more than 50 permanent bases in Antarctica and a great many more semi-permanent summer bases, and that huge increase in numbers could have detrimental consequences. Antarctica has a fragile and delicate ecosystem that is incredibly vulnerable to even the slightest change. Although the Antarctic treaty of 1959 addresses the unique situation in Antarctica and goes some way towards protecting the region, much more needs to be done. The Bill tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud would reinforce many existing parts of the treaty while making much-needed additions, so I welcome it and hope that colleagues in all parts of the House will give it their enthusiastic support. It is essential that we maintain the unspoiled landscape of Antarctica and hold people and organisations responsible for their actions should they jeopardise the Antarctic environment. It may be only a matter of time before an incident occurs in Antarctica, and the Bill will go some way towards preventing such an accident or ensuring that its consequences are less far-reaching.
We can all be justly proud of the role that Britain has played in Antarctica for more than a century. Today marks a further step in Britain’s long-standing commitment to that region of our planet, and I commend my hon. Friend’s Bill to the House.
Antarctic Bill
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(12 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend makes a good point and, as he knows, I share his horror of the European Union sticking its nose into our affairs. His question might be best answered by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud, as this is his Bill, but I think that provision is intended to allay the concerns of universities who might have foreign nationals on teams wanting to carry out research in the Antarctic. At present, the required process is quite difficult, and involves having to get foreign nationals’ own countries to sort things out. The idea is that it would be a lot easier for research institutions in this country if the British Government could sort everything out. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) is, however, always wise to be on the look-out for encroachment by the European Union, the consequences of which are hardly ever in our favour.
Neil Carmichael
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making this speech in support of my Bill, and I can assure him that the EU is not involved in this in any way at all.
Philip Davies
I think we are all grateful for that clarification. My hon. Friend may be disappointed that the EU is not involved in some way, however, as I know his views on Europe are somewhat different from mine. It is a great pleasure to me and my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset that the EU has not got its grubby little hands all over this Bill.
Before discussing the details of the Bill, it is important to look at where we are now and how we got there. The Antarctic treaty was ratified on 1 December 1959 in Washington DC and came into force on 23 June 1961. It established international co-operation to protect and preserve Antarctica. The UK enacted its obligations through the Antarctic Treaty Act 1967. There were 12 original signatories of the 1959 treaty, including the Governments of the UK, Australia, Belgium, France, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, South Africa, the Soviet Union—as it was then—and the USA. As the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) made clear, the other signatories were Argentina and Chile.
Philip Davies
I am not sure the demand would justify making the research available in the Library, but I am happy to send it to my hon. Friend. He can do with it what he wishes. I would not want to trouble the House of Commons Library with it, although it is interesting.
The extremely cold and dry climate does not allow rich vegetation, but some flora exists on the continent, which creates the Antarctic tundra in some parts of the continent, particularly the Antarctic peninsula, which has areas of rocky soil that support plant life.
The protocol on environmental protection to the Antarctic treaty is of great importance to the Bill. A ban on mining was imposed in 1998. The protocol, which was introduced in 1998, will be reviewed in 2048.
Part 1 of the Bill introduces a number of new statutory duties on those operating in Antarctica, relating to appropriate response action, preventive measures and contingency planning and information. It will come into force when it is officially approved by all the consultative parties which signed up to annex VI in 2005. I would imagine that this would be quite a difficult and lengthy process as there are 28 separate signatories and it is hard to envisage that they would all be content with every single part of the Bill. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what progress has been made in getting agreement with all the consultative parties that signed up, because that could be one of the most difficult parts of bringing this into operation. In 2009, the previous Government launched a consultation on a draft Antarctic Bill, and the version that we see today deals with issues raised by that consultation and includes some of the subsequent recommendations.
Clause 1 says that
“the person who organised the activities must take reasonable, prompt and effective response action.”
I am not sure whether my hon. Friend has something precisely in mind on what would constitute such action—whether that would be left for the courts to decide, or whether the Government have formulated any definitions. At the moment, it is not particularly clear. The clause also says that the costs that would have to be incurred
“are the costs that the person would have incurred had the person taken reasonable, prompt and effective response action.”
That seems to be rather difficult to determine, and it would be helpful to know exactly how it would be done. How would we know exactly what the costs would have been if people had taken such action in the event that they are before the courts because they have not done so? I do not know whether my hon. Friend wants to deal with those matters now or in Committee.
Neil Carmichael
I think that they would be more appropriately dealt with in Committee. The definition of
“reasonable and prompt response action”
has to be seen in the context of the difficult and unpredictable circumstances in the region that we are talking about, and that should be borne in mind.
Philip Davies
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes a fair point. Legislation of this kind is problematic in that it is easy to be too vague and easy to be too specific. I understand that he is trying to leave enough flexibility for individual circumstances to be taken into consideration. Perhaps he had in mind the similar provisions of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, which asks employers to make reasonable provision without specifying what “reasonable” means so that it can be considered on a case-by-case basis. However, it would be helpful if at some point we had a better understanding of what might be considered to be reasonable and who might decide that, or whether it would be left to a court to decide.
The liability annex obliges state parties to take preventive measures and to establish contingency plans for responses to incidents with a potentially adverse impact on the Antarctic environment. It imposes strict financial liability for the polluter to pay the costs of response action. Concerns may well arise about the level of liability that might be incurred by smaller expedition operators who do not have the financial muscle of some of the big corporations. In the case of commercial fishing operators, for example, would the expedition organisers or their employees be liable for any damage? Would there be corporate or individual responsibility for these liabilities if the corporation concerned could show due diligence in what they expected of their individual employees?
The potentially heavy burden that the sanction might place on individuals might not be realisable. Would individuals have to pay or would the sanction be limited to companies? Would the ability to pay also be factored into any costs and fines incurred? The Bill makes it clear that the money taken would be based on the costs of cleaning up or the costs that would have been incurred had the people concerned acted properly. Will there be a provision to cover circumstances in which they do not have the money? I urge my hon. Friend to address this issue in Committee. Rather than accept that they do not have the money and that, therefore, nothing can be recovered, it might be worth while to have a provision stating that the company or people concerned have to be able to afford the payment; otherwise, the big hammer with which we hit them might end up being meaningless and worthless.
According to the Library research paper, part 1 also has measures that
“enhance contingency planning to reduce the risks of ‘environmental emergencies’ in Antarctica i.e. accidents with significantly harmful environmental impacts such as oil spills.”
I have mentioned that Antarctica does not have great natural resources sufficient for exploration, so it is hard to imagine environmental emergencies such as oil spills in Antarctica. Not only are the temperatures extremely low for oil to sustain its qualities—in contrast with extracting it elsewhere in the oil-rich world—but there is also a deficiency of oil for adequate extraction. Drilling would be totally ineffective and economically unfeasible for oil companies due to the remoteness and hostility of the climate and related conditions, which would make it exceptionally difficult for any such businesses to operate. How big an issue will that be?
Neil Carmichael
My hon. Friend is making some interesting points. He is right that these matters are likely to be considered in Committee, but the Bill does mention insurance for expeditions as part of their preparations. On oil, I commented in my speech on 600,000 litres of diesel being spilled by a ship. That also needs be borne in mind.
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend’s point about insurance is a good one. We need to encourage people to take out the relevant and necessary insurance before they start and the Bill considers what happens if they do not do that. Perhaps that should be explored in more detail in Committee.
The explanatory notes state that the protocol on environmental protection to the Antarctic treaty, which was signed in 1991 and entered into force in 1998, already
“provides for the comprehensive protection of the Antarctic environment. Its Article 7 prohibits any activity relating to mineral resources other than scientific research. Until 2048 the Protocol can only be modified by unanimous agreement of all the Consultative Parties to the Treaty and, in addition, the prohibition on activity relating to mineral resources cannot be removed without a binding legal regime on Antarctic mineral resource activities being in force.”
It is important to state that considerable protection is already in place in the Antarctic. I accept that my hon. Friend is seeking to strengthen that protection in order to address unforeseeable future circumstances, but will the Minister explain what additional protection the Government think the Bill necessitates that is not already covered by the international treaties?
The British Antarctic Territory is the UK’s largest overseas territory and is administered by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office as an overseas dependent territory—an arrangement that dates back to 1908. Rather than dwell on that point, I take this opportunity to support the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Romford. I think it is fair to say that he is the leading authority in the House on the British overseas territories and does a fantastic amount of work to defend and speak up for them, often when very few other people are prepared to do so. We should commend him for what he does, and particularly for what he said today about the British Antarctic Survey and the Natural Environment Research Council. I endorse everything that he said. I do not want to go over old ground, but his points were particularly well made.
The BAS operates its research stations in the Antarctic throughout the year, and it should also be commended for its fantastic work in South Georgia, Adelaide Island and Coats Land. We were right to be concerned about the merger that my hon. Friend discussed at length, and everybody welcomes today’s statement about it.
Neil Carmichael
With the leave of the House, Mr Deputy Speaker, I should like to respond.
We have had an excellent debate. It has thrown up some very interesting issues, which will doubtless re-emerge in Committee. I am immensely grateful for the wide support for this important Bill, and I obviously appreciate the expressions of support from the Minister.
We heard several fascinating speeches. I thank the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and my hon. Friends the Members for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), for Stone (Mr Cash), for Shipley (Philip Davies), for Hexham (Guy Opperman) and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) for their thoughtful contributions. We also heard some useful interventions, but I shall not list them all because I think that we need to move on to other business.
Let me say two final things. First, let me reassure the Opposition that a huge campaign was launched at a very early stage to ensure that the British Antarctic Survey was dealt with properly in terms of its autonomy and resources. That reassurance was given to us very firmly today by the Minister for Universities and Science. Secondly, let me ram home the point that the Bill reaffirms Britain’s presence in the Antarctic, and adds substantially to our capacity to protect that very important continent.
I have pleasure in commending the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63).
Protecting the Antarctic
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to be here under your chairmanship, Mr Turner; I look forward to a happy half-hour. It is also great to see my hon. Friend the new Minister in his place. It is a great honour to introduce what I think is the first Westminster Hall debate that he has to answer. I am grateful to him for coming along to do so.
Protecting the Antarctic is a very important subject and one that I and many other people take very seriously. Recently, the Committee Environmental Audit has been doing some very interesting work on the Arctic. That has raised a few issues about the importance of our polar regions in general, and it is therefore right that we consider the Antarctic as well. I thank my colleagues on the Environmental Audit Committee for all their support of my interest in the Antarctic and, of course, our work on the Arctic.
This discussion about the Antarctic is timely because of course it is 100 years since Captain Robert Scott attempted to reach the south pole. He did so not just to get there first, but to undertake very important scientific work. In doing all that and much more, he established the British presence in the Antarctic that we think is so important now. We need to ensure that we continue with that.
The other important link with Robert Scott is of course his son. In Robert Scott’s last letter to his wife, he hoped that his two-year-old son would show an interest in the natural environment, and he certainly did, because he helped to establish the World Wildlife Fund and he established the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust, which is based in Slimbridge in my constituency. In addition, he worked extraordinarily hard to highlight the need to protect the Antarctic. I am therefore very proud of the connection that my constituency of Stroud has with the Scott family, with that epic attempt to get to the south pole and with the incredibly important legacy that was left.
That is the background to why I am here, thinking about the Antarctic and wishing to promote and protect it. Indeed, I will be promoting a private Member’s Bill on the issue later in the autumn. If people want to know more about the Antarctic, I can recommend a book by Sara Wheeler, “Terra Incognita”. It is a brilliant and very lively book. It talks about going down to the Antarctic with the British Antarctic Survey—I will talk about that later—and the lifestyle that one can expect to have in such a cold climate. Incidentally, the first human being to be born in the Antarctic was a Peruvian, and that took place in 1978.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and putting forward that very important Bill. If there is any need for proof of the affection in which the British people hold the Antarctic, we need only look to Edinburgh, where voters recently replaced a Lib Dem with a penguin. I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware of that.
Neil Carmichael
Absolutely. I also followed the fate of Dirk the penguin. He went out drinking with some Australians and ended up in a pool with very aggressive fish, but he did survive, so obviously penguins are notable for a lot of things, not just standing—
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
Like the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), I congratulate the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) on securing this enormously important debate. Antarctica, as he says, is uniquely important scientifically, climatically and environmentally. Is it not vital for the protection of penguins, and flora and fauna in general, that there is strict enforcement of the restriction on resource exploitation and unregulated fishing in Antarctica and, like me, does he look forward to hearing from the Minister what the Government are doing to reinforce that strict enforcement?
Neil Carmichael
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct, and I thank him for that important contribution to the debate. He can be reassured that that is exactly the direction of travel in which I think we need to be going. The Bill that I will be bringing to Parliament would strengthen those protection mechanisms, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be there to support me on 2 November.
The Antarctic is important for a number of reasons, not least its pivotal role in regulating the earth’s climate. The Southern ocean is a massive sink for CO2. Although it is obviously a harsh environment, we must all recognise that it is also fragile, which is what the right hon. Gentleman was really alluding to. The challenges are captured in the statistics, such as the fact that in the past 30 years the air temperature has risen by 3° C and the sea temperature by 1° C—87% of the glaciers are in retreat. Without doubt, there are challenges to confront and recognise in our thinking.
There are also questions. For example, the number of krill—a relatively common, shrimp-like creature, stuffed full of protein—is starting to decrease, due to not only fishing, but environmental changes. Marine life in general also needs to be protected. That area of water alone contains 120 species of fish, which we must of course celebrate, but also ensure we can defend.
There are threats to the Antarctic that it is important to highlight today. We have considerable good international co-operation. Britain has been a key leader in that process and we need to both salute and cement it. We have played a great part in the Antarctic, not only because of Robert Scott and the Falklands, but because a whole host of foreign policy issues bring us to recognise the pivotal role the area plays. Although we are still recognised as a key leader, it is our responsibility to demonstrate leadership now, as more and more nations become more and more interested in the Antarctic. It is necessary to talk not only about protecting the environment, although that is critical, but about Britain’s interests in the region.
Overfishing is a risk. I do not want to get into a discussion about the common fisheries policy, because its area does not stretch that far, but we need to think about protecting fish stocks.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important and timely debate. He is of course right to say that we must do all we can to protect and preserve the fragile environment of the Antarctic. Does he agree that that does not necessarily equate to doing nothing there? There are those who would ban any form of human activity in a fragile environment of that kind, but properly controlled fishing and exploration for oil and minerals may well be beneficial in some ways to the economy and the environment of the Antarctic.
Neil Carmichael
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. The key point is that we need to ensure that, if pollution occurs, the polluter pays. We must also ensure that they go with insurance, rather than worry about it after an accident. That is a critical part of the legislation I have brought forward. It underlines the fact that although we need people down there, they must conduct responsible activity in a responsible way that protects the Antarctic and does not threaten or damage it. I thank him for giving me the opportunity to underline that point.
Shipping is worth noting, given the accidents in recent years. According to research I recently undertook, we have had 12 significant incidents in five years. That again underlines the need to protect the area.
I visited the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge. It is partly the instrument of our presence in the Antarctic. I recognise, as we all do, the constraints on public funding at this time. The Natural Environment Research Council is a perfectly responsible body, but I hope that when those two bodies come together, the role of the BAS is still recognised for its importance in securing our presence in the Antarctic and in researching its interesting history and the story it can tell of how the earth developed and how climate change, oddly enough, has been an issue for many centuries. If we drill into the ice, we can look back over 800,000 years to explore what has happened. That process alone—carried out by the BAS—has been of decisive importance. I ask the Minister to think carefully about our presence in the Antarctic and the role of scientific exploration there.
The purpose of today’s debate is to highlight the importance of the Antarctic, to underline the need to protect its environment, to recognise its important role in our global climate and to strengthen the argument for a British presence there. That is why I am keen not only to talk about the Antarctic in general terms, but to do something about it. On 2 November, I will bring the Antarctic Bill before Parliament for its Second Reading. It has two parts. The first is about protecting the environment, which hangs on insurance and the concept that the polluter pays, as we discussed earlier. It is an important concept that we should apply to other areas that we need to protect, including the Arctic. The second part is about protecting marine life, vertebrates and other living creatures. The Antarctic is a sacred part of the globe. We must treat it as such and recognise that it is fragile. It is a subject of interest across the globe, as the Antarctic treaty makes clear, which is why we must strengthen the treaty’s structure by recognising its place in our domestic law.
Finally, I return to Robert and Sir Peter Scott. They were of decisive importance to the natural environment. As we all know, Robert Scott is being celebrated as a great explorer and a man of huge character who left a massive legacy. We are building on that legacy. His son, Sir Peter Scott, made a huge contribution to the natural environment, with, in particular, the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust in Slimbridge, and also the WWF, which he helped to set up. It, too, is a critical supporter of the need to protect the Antarctic.
To sum up, our interests are to protect the Antarctic for future generations, and to ensure that global climate is properly understood in connection with the Antarctic and that Britain continues to deliver the necessary leadership in the region.
European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Baron
That is up to the Greek people. Unlike many initiatives relating to the eurozone crisis, one is not trying to replace the democracy that exists in Greece, although if we look at what has happened in Italy and, it could be argued, to a certain extent in Greece, we see that it is very much the bureaucrats who are in charge. However, ultimately Greece will have to make a decision; it cannot have it both ways. We have seen the high social cost of Greece remaining a member of the euro, and it is very saddening, with the suicide rate going through the roof and the economy collapsing. Perhaps someone needs to explain to Greece that a course of devaluation would do its economy a power of good.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I want to develop that point, because it seems to me that Greece has effectively decided to stay in the euro—the Government are committed to that—so exactly what business do we have trying to tell the Greeks how to run their economy, especially since we are not in the euro?
Mr Baron
One is not trying to tell them how to run their economy at all. I am afraid that my hon. Friend was obviously not listening. What one is suggesting is that the experience of past cases illustrates the merits of devaluation. Since the second world war there have been about 40 occasions when currency blocs have broken up, and in the vast majority of cases—I struggle to think of an exception—the countries that left currency blocs benefited. Their growth rates picked up because they became more competitive, their currencies devalued and, most importantly, their peoples benefited. If my hon. Friend can think of one exception to that general rule, I would be delighted to hear it, because I cannot think of one. In summary, I believe—
Neil Carmichael
I was casting my mind back to 1967, when the Labour Government devalued the currency, but can see no evidence at all that the decision brought about any improvement. In fact, it was followed by the creation of the Department of Employment and Productivity, and by 1970 that was an unmitigated disaster.
European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate, although I have been thinking about déjà vu situations, not least because we have discussed this subject in some detail in the past, and then I started wondering where the holidays had gone—I am still wondering about that. However, it is an important debate and it is well worth giving the matter further consideration. The Government are absolutely right that we have had a motion but should now also have a belt and braces approach and a Bill to ensure that this is properly embedded in the parliamentary system and that we understand what is being done by passing this legislation.
I want to remind Members, as I have often done, about certain visits I make to meet businesses in my constituency. Many of them trade with the European Union, but they never really mention the problems because they are really quite pleased to have a free market and take it as read that that is a good thing. They are grateful for any improvements we can make to the single market, and I would like to see improvements such as the expansion of the single market to services and energy, for example. The firms I visit are good examples of why we should be concerned about the future of the euro and keen to ensure that the single market and our trade with the European Union continue unabated.
One of the firms is Delphi, which makes injector systems for diesel engines. It imports parts, assembles them and then exports them. They go from Europe to Britain and then back to Europe. It is that kind of relationship that is important and necessary in a world of increasingly complex supply chains and relationships between businesses. It is really important to recognise that that is the bread and butter of what the single market is all about. I heard earlier the worries about the single market and the need to think of it as unimportant, but I completely disagree. Not only is it very important, but it is our responsibility as supporters of the coalition Government to ensure that we press ahead with its expansion, deepening and enhancement.
The euro itself is also an important issue for us. We have to recognise that we are neighbours of 17 EU member states that are in the euro. An unmanaged collapse, or indeed any collapse, would be absolutely catastrophic. It is in our interests as a country to make sure that the euro thrives. We may not like the euro or want to join it, but it is in our interest to ensure that it does not break up. That is at the core of some of the issues raised today; I shall come to them in a minute.
Something else has cropped up in this debate—the good old referendum. I see why people want referendums and why they think that this Chamber should not make all the decisions, but also cast them out to the people. However, the people ask us to make decisions; that is what Parliament is for. I buy the argument that too many referendums are more likely than anything to reduce our influence, as decision makers and members of Governments, in this Chamber. We must be really careful about when we think we should have referendums and when we do not.
There is really no need at all for a referendum on what we are discussing tonight. The last Europe Act that we passed suggested that we should have referendums on the passage of power to the European Union, but which power will we pass to the European Union through this legislation? We will not pass any; actually, we are grabbing some power back.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
We are obviously giving the European Union the power to set up a fund. That must be a power, even if it is not worthy of a referendum.
Neil Carmichael
I am grateful for that intervention, which goes to the heart of the question. If we are worrying about powers that concern us, the answer to my question is still no. That is the point: the answer is still no, because no powers are being transferred through this legislation from us to the European Union. If anyone can describe a power that is being transferred, I want to know about it, but unless they can the answer is that no powers are being transferred. That point is really important.
I shall go further. The real issue about the legislation is that it effectively removes qualified majority voting from the issues of what we were deciding before. That is why we need not worry; we are saying that there is now a power of veto on the process—so, ironically, there is a further strengthening of the British approach to dealing with the European Union. I question the need for regular referendums because that would reduce the influence of the House and I certainly say that there is no need for a referendum on this item, because at the end of the day there is no evidence of any transfer of power.
That is not the end of the matter. The issue that has been bubbling around this debate is that we do not like the euro so we have to pull out or do something to undermine it. My point is that we are not going to join the euro, but we want to make sure that our interests as a country are properly protected so that we can continue trading with the countries that are in the euro.
Let us face it—those countries are significant traders. As a whole, the European Union still effectively controls a quarter of the world’s gross domestic product. Seventeen members of the eurozone are part of that and they are the bigger part of the EU. In sheer figures, we are talking about a large portion of the world’s gross domestic product. That suggests that we have to be sensible about how the euro is treated. Sensible American policy makers agree; they want Britain to be part of the European Union, exercising appropriate influence in a way that promotes the trade activities that we see in Europe and beyond. That is not true of all Americans; one or two in Tampa during the Republican convention would raise eyebrows. However, American government, in the broadest sense, recognises that having Britain in the European Union is a good thing because it has a good influence on how the EU shapes up. It is important for us to recognise that as politicians, policy makers and administrators.
Poland was mentioned earlier, and I understand why. It is a very interesting country to think about because it is the only one that has not had a problem with growth ever since this crisis started. That is partly because it has always had a relatively sensible approach to borrowing money and deficit management. It has also recognised its close proximity to Germany, which is of course part of the eurozone. It is not surprising that the Polish Government are now wondering exactly what they are going to do about signalling their intentions on joining the euro—a decision that Donald Tusk needs to start to formulate as the months and years go by. Poland is not necessarily going to reject the option of joining the euro, and that is in complete contrast to the usual story about countries leaving the euro. We need to bear that in mind as we deliberate on the future of the euro as a whole.
We do not want to join the euro ourselves; we think that would be a mistake. We are not planning to make any decision that would lead us towards having to do so, but the British Government and the British industrial state need to think very carefully about how the euro situation unfolds. Our relationships with the big players are therefore very important.
Martin Horwood
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his speech, not least on his points about the importance of European trade to business in Gloucestershire, where both he and I obviously have an interest. He is doing a good job of flying a more positive and realistic flag for the Conservatives’ approach to Europe, and I congratulate him on that as well. Would he go as far as me in saying that until the eurozone returns to economic health it will become increasingly difficult for this country to return to full economic health, and that therefore any small thing that we can do to enable that to happen must be a positive? I am not suggesting that this Bill guarantees that that will happen, but it is perhaps one small step in helping to enable European, particularly eurozone, countries to rebuild their economies.
Neil Carmichael
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention; I am very grateful for the level of support. Plenty of Conservatives share my views; he should not think that we are some sort of sect. He is absolutely right to point out that Britain’s best interests are connected with helping the overall economy in Europe, which obviously includes the eurozone.
Several hon. Members have referred to the situation in Germany, which is pivotal. One has to ask what Angela Merkel is really thinking and why she takes the attitude that she does about how the bail-out operations are decided and managed. That goes to heart of something else that has cropped up in this debate—devaluing currencies. The Germans like a robust currency because they believe that it is good for their economy. They have had one for an awfully long time, and in broad terms their economy has benefited from it. They know that the relative strength of the deutschmark before, and the euro now, has been a good thing for economic policy management. They also know that if they dish out bail-outs too prematurely they will not extract the necessary promises from the other nation states to put right the issues that are not so good in those countries.
At the end of the day, it is important that bail-outs lead to a result, namely improved productivity, better debt management and better management of public expenditure. That is what needs to happen in nation states that are in difficulty, which is why the issue of eurobonds is so interesting and is taking such a long time to crystallise into real results. Those countries that understand the need for robust currencies and, effectively, inflation-proof strategies will win a long-term gain, which proves that that is the right way to improve productivity and ensure that economies grow according to robust economic indicators.
It is necessary for the British Government to continue to work with the German Government in that regard, so that it remains possible for us to develop the right kind of relationship with the rest of the eurozone. We have to ensure, first, that we influence the single market to expand into services and energy; secondly, that we get proper discipline over public finances; and thirdly, that we recognise the value of strong currencies.
It is not true that devaluing willy-nilly achieves results—we have seen that so often in our own history and in that of other countries. Remember 1967, when devaluation was argued over ruthlessly by Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan and others, but what did it actually produce? It did not produce additional productivity or the kind of growth that was anticipated and so desperately needed. Devaluation is not a panacea in complex economic situations in which a lot of trading takes place between complex economies. That is an important marker for our own economic prospects.
In conclusion, I firmly believe that this country needs to deal with its deficit and I recognise the importance of reforming the real economy. I apply the same logic to both of those things in the European Union. Britain should be a positive influence. It should not necessarily be involved in the euro, but it should be able and willing to ensure that the world’s largest single area of economic activity remains a credible force for the future.
Syria
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Hague
One of the important aspects of bringing the opposition groups together is uniting in one co-ordinating body the Kurdish elements of the opposition with the rest so that the point the hon. Gentleman makes is well understood and accepted by opposition forces in Syria, and we are of course encouraging that. There have been additional problems for some Palestinian refugees, on top of the tragic situation. We always make the point to neighbouring countries that Palestinian and Kurdish refugees have the same rights as all other refugees have to seek safety and asylum in neighbouring countries.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
The Foreign Secretary quite rightly mentioned five areas of work for himself and his colleagues. The first and the fifth are obviously mutually dependent and revolve around the condition and quality of the opposition, so I would like to probe how those links between the opposition and the outside will be developed in the immediate future.
Mr Hague
They are being developed all the time. There was a constructive meeting last week in Cairo of opposition groups, which we hope will be built on, and the UK special representative to the opposition is working with them on an hourly basis and giving good advice. We are working in that respect with countries such as Turkey, France and the United States and, importantly, with Arab countries, and we will continue to do so. I always stress to Syrian opposition groups that when a country such as ours faces an existential crisis, such as the last world war, across all parties we come together and sink all differences for the duration of the crisis. Syria is in an existential crisis and that is exactly what they need to do.
UK-Turkey Relations
Neil Carmichael Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I am pleased to be able to speak in this debate, which is on an interesting subject. It has been an honour to listen to many speeches, not least from the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, who introduced the debate and presides over a Committee that does some really good work, which should be recognised.
I have been to Turkey—mainly Istanbul, which is a vibrant, exciting city. I went there several years ago, partly because some friends of mine were moving their business interests there. I found it fascinating to watch how they were integrating with the Turkish business community and how Turkey was becoming quite an exciting place in which to invest. I did invest, incidentally, in a fez. The only useful thing that did was to alert all other traders to the fact that I was a tourist and should be approached immediately to see whether I would buy anything else.
I have also visited Cyprus and there I took note of the partition of that country between Greece and Turkey. I know that it is an important obstacle to Turkey’s eventual membership of the European Union, which I hope will be a reality some time in the future.
We have heard a little about the Ottoman empire, and quite right too. One thing to remember about the Ottoman empire is that its rise, its life and above all its fall were interesting to the rest of Europe. We should recognise that we are influenced by what goes on there, and we should be attempting to influence that area now. On that premise I shall make a number of points, not just about foreign policy, but about the economic situation in Turkey, which I have already mentioned. A country as big as Turkey, with a relatively vibrant economy—even a decline in growth rate will still give it a growth rate higher than ours for some time—is one that we should be cultivating as a potential partner in the European Union. We must develop trade and it is important that we focus on doing that.
I agree with some of the speakers who emphasised some of the difficulties that that process entails. This morning I was at a breakfast discussing trade with China. There we heard about the importance of our diplomats and our embassies in promoting trade, and we learned just how powerful and determined the Americans were at promoting business in other countries. The American diplomatic service is robust and determined to promote businesses. We even heard that ambassadors were present at various meetings for banks in competition with other banks, including one based in Britain. It is important that we recognise the strength and the power of our diplomatic corps in promoting business, and that certainly applies to Turkey.
As one or two other Members have pointed out in connection with energy, the European Union has another interest in Turkey because of energy development and other industrial and entrepreneurial activity. It is critical that we do not lose the opportunity to bind Turkey into the European Union at a time when that is feasible. Feasibility can be judged on several criteria, one of which is human rights. I recognise the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) that 10% of all cases currently before the European Court of Human Rights are from Turkey. The highest number of cases are from Russia, to which Turkey is second. That is a strong signal that Turkey must improve its human rights record, and we need to make sure that it is one of the tools that we bargain with, in order to encourage Turkey to think about human rights so that it can join the European Union at some time.
A change of Government in Turkey has altered the tendency to think western rather than eastern. We should recognise in our deliberations about Turkey that the new feeling in the Turkish Foreign Ministry is that, although it would be a good idea to join the European Union, there are other options. We should bear that in mind as we consider how we might tackle the issue. Many speakers in the debate mentioned that France in particular and Germany are slightly concerned about Turkey’s membership of the European Union. Germany, with its tradition of guest workers, will clearly have to think carefully about that, not just because of the history of that tradition, but because of the number of Turks currently in Germany.
France is an interesting case. I think that we should take a leaf out of Edward Heath’s book—oddly enough—because he recognised that getting Britain into the European Union depended not on persuading the Germans or any other country, but on persuading the country that was least keen on it, which was France. That is why he was so right to visit President Pompidou and ensure that he squared that off before going to the other nation states, unlike Harold Wilson, who did it in exactly the opposite direction, which inevitably ended in failure.
Turkey has some really interesting foreign policy issues that we need to think about swiftly and carefully. The first is that it has changed its mind about two key countries in its region. It used to be a pretty strong supporter of the Assad regime and the Syrian Government in general, but obviously now it is not. It is learning what to do, reacting to changes and is itself a change agent. Likewise, Turkey’s attitude to Israel has changed in recent years, demonstrating that it is thinking about its position in the region, which is something that Britain and the European Union as a whole need to understand, because Turkey will not sit there idly while the rest of us watch and wait. That is yet another reason why we should be very sensible in how we judge and calibrate exactly what we do and say to Turkey with regard to foreign policy.
One thing that is critical, but which has not really been mentioned in the debate in the context I am speaking about, is the fact that Turkey currently has an Islamic Government, but a moderate Islamic Government. Therefore, we should have a relationship with Turkey to influence the rest of the region through a Government who have some semblance of democracy and some interest in the west as well as the east. In other words, Turkey is a conduit to the places where we need more influence than we currently have. It seems to me that we should recognise that description of Turkey and apply the logical consequences. If we feel that it is a friendly Islamic country, we should be cultivating our friendship with it. That is one of the most important reasons why we should be talking about Turkey in a constructive way.
I will draw these threads together, because it seems to me that there is something very potent about recognising that human rights, economic interest and, in effect, good governance can be tied together. We can then demonstrate that the European Union, when it can request, prove and then expect all those things to be saluted for membership, is making progress. However, we can also take those three things and say to Turkey and the rest of the region, “These are the things we want and that are better for you, with regard to economic development, political stability and the recognition of states.” Of course, the situation in the middle east is the obvious and important example of that. It is just like the Helsinki accords in 1975, which effectively allowed in eastern Europe the recognition of human rights, economic interests and good governance, and the key driver then turned out to be human rights. That was the key driver motivating the signatories to the Helsinki accords, and the ones who were least confident and least free, with regard to their political rights, were the ones who ended up using them to get their freedoms eventually.
Through a combination of recognising that Turkey has economic interests that are akin to ours, that is has regional interests and is a moderate Islamic state that we can talk to and use as a conduit, and that there is enormous economic potential not just in Turkey but in the vicinity, we should think carefully about how, in the long run, Turkey can become a member of the European Union. It will not happen overnight or within a few years, but we should work for it, because it will mean good foreign policy in the long run.