Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Luke Pollard Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)]

I declare an interest and a huge sense of pride in taking part in this debate: I have cousins who serve in the Army and the Royal Air Force, and a son in the Royal Navy, all of whom are under 30. Hopefully, because of the Bill, they are at the start of long and successful armed forces careers. Also, my constituency of Portsmouth North is the home of the Royal Navy. I am glad that the Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), is not here to argue about that.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)]

I think he is!

[Amanda Martin]

I meant the other one—my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas). I am proud to be part of a mission-led Government but, as the Secretary of State said earlier, no mission from a Labour Government is complete unless it is our first duty to keep our country safe. Peace and security are hard earned and require constant vigilance and a well-staffed and—dare I aspire to say—a happy armed forces workforce.

This Bill is groundbreaking in its mission, with 183,000 service personnel and their families at its heart. It provides the opportunity and the authority for an independent commissioner to investigate welfare complaints not only from those serving, but from their families. It also gives the commissioner the opportunity and the authority to horizon scan, to highlight trends, to visit our bases and listen to personnel and their families, to launch investigations when needed and, ultimately, to improve the world of work and the lives of those who so often put this country first.

I welcome the stance of the whole House and the cross-party commitment to this Bill. Real change cannot come quickly enough. Attrition rates continue to grow and morale among our service personnel continues to plummet. At the moment, recruitment is outstripped by those leaving, so retention is a real concern. Despite 81% of our service personnel feeling supported by their families and their colleagues, it is upsetting that almost 50% do not feel that their families and their family life are supported by the service. Impact on family and personal life remains the top factor influencing those leaving the services.

It would be remiss of me not to note that in my Portsmouth North constituency the concerns around armed forces housing are very high. With three quarters of our personnel living in service accommodation, it is vital to be able to hear the voice of those serving and their families, and to use that to improve housing, communities, childcare and the lives of our forces and their families. This Government are serious about keeping our country safe and making our armed services a priority. With a pay rise already awarded, with an announcement on childcare provision already made, with a new cyber-route and the cutting of red tape in recruitment, and now with a Bill providing an armed forces champion, with real voices and real experiences at its centre, this is a step to building back that eroded trust and pride. Just as I do when my son returns from sea, we as a Government are putting our arms around service personnel and their families.

This will not be easy, and it will not be quick. Issues will be uncovered that will be uncomfortable and possibly costly. Cultures might need to change, the Secretary of State will be presented with reports and independent investigations, and Parliament will need to address these issues. Success or failure will be measured and voiced, as it should be. Will the Minister assure me that, however difficult the outcomes, the reports and the words that we hear from our service personnel, we will commit to having a truly independent commissioner, so that our armed services feel they have the trust to go to them? In delivering this Bill into law, we will not only say, but show by our actions, how much we value the service and dedication of our armed forces personnel and their families.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)]

I thank all Members who have spoken in this debate. A number of Members spoke about the importance of this time of year. Last week, I was on the Falkland Islands to represent the Government and Falklands veterans from Plymouth, to lay a wreath at the war memorial that remembers the 255 members of UK armed forces who died in the 1982 conflict, and to lay a further wreath to remember the 49 members of our armed forces who have died subsequently in accidents and other incidents on the Falkland Islands. Remembrance is a special time of year. It is an opportunity for all of us, whatever our walk of life, to thank those who have served, to remember those people who never came home, and to offer our support to those people who came back forever changed. I am grateful to Members across the House for their participation in remembrance events, and the support they have shown to our armed forces and veterans community.

I am grateful to Members across the House for their contributions to the debate. It has been truly heartwarming to listen to speeches from all sides of the House about the passion and respect for, and dignity of, members of the armed forces. I will touch on a few of the questions asked, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell), the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), the hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan (Harriet Cross), my hon. Friends the Members for Slough (Mr Dhesi) and for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas), the hon. Member for Exmouth and Exeter East (David Reed), my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Luke Akehurst), the hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens (Dave Doogan), my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Alison Hume) and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey), for Portsmouth North (Amanda Martin), for Colchester (Pam Cox), for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger), for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie), for Livingston (Gregor Poynton), for Hartlepool (Mr Brash), for Bracknell (Peter Swallow), for Broxtowe (Juliet Campbell), for Dudley (Sonia Kumar), for South West Norfolk (Terry Jermy) and for Aldershot (Alex Baker). I also thank the Front-Bench spokespersons for their contributions: the hon. Members for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) and for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire), and the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois). That is a tour de force of our nations and regions, and we should all be proud of the way our armed forces are held in such regard across our country.

I pay special tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hogsmeade Station—my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby—for her brilliant maiden speech and for her words about Jo Cox. Jo Cox inspired both in life and in death. I hope there will be many more brilliant women who follow in my hon. Friend’s footsteps and join her on these Benches because of the work Jo Cox inspired.

Members from across the House raised a number of issues. I will attempt, in summing up, to deal with a number of them, but if I do not cover them all, I would be grateful if Members could continue this debate, because the Bill is important. It is important that we get this right. It is important that we set the parameters for the Armed Forces Commissioner—the powers and the role they will have—and in particular stressing the impartiality and independence of the role. That is absolutely key.

I was struck by just how many Members began their speeches with an assessment of where we are now. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot described personnel as feeling worn down. The hon. Member for Exmouth and Exeter East described the significant shortfalls in recruitment and an exodus of skills and personnel in recent years, and he is correct to do so. A number of Members related that to the evidence the MOD collects in the continuous attitude surveys. The falling morale in the attitudes of our armed forces personnel really stand as a roll call of shame for the previous Government. It is not the fault of armed forces personnel, but a collective failure to address the issues that underpin service life. That is one of the reasons why this Government proposed an Armed Forces Commissioner and why we must get it right to provide a direct contact for our armed forces personnel and their families.

A number of Members spoke about the culture in our armed forces. The vast majority of people who serve our country do so with the right values and the right attitude, but there are far too many examples where that is not the case. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell for raising the Atherton review. The report by Sarah Atherton in the previous Parliament should be compulsory reading for all Members of Parliament. I say to new Members who have joined us since the 2024 general election that it is well worth a google to understand the experience of so many women in our armed forces—it is worth having on your bedside table.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead spoke very passionately about bringing to justice perpetrators who act against the spirit of our armed forces and diminish the experience of service life for so many other people. He is correct to do so. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar likewise spoke about the importance of lifting our culture. The role of the Armed Forces Commissioner has been specifically designed so that they can investigate issues related to general service welfare matters for those who serve and their families. It is not for me as a Minister, or for the Secretary of State or anyone else on the Government Bench, to set out what the Armed Forces Commissioner should investigate. It is for us to give that person the powers and the ability to get to the heart of the problems.

I am grateful to all Members who very kindly gave the Front Bench words of advice. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View said it will not be easy reading the commissioner’s reports, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston. The hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens described the Government as leaving themselves open to scrutiny. My hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell spoke about the proof being in the pudding. They are all right to do so. We are deliberately opening ourselves to scrutiny because it will improve the lives of those people who serve and their families. It is a strength of this Government that we feel open to wanting additional scrutiny and I am grateful to Members who encouraged it. I further encourage Members to look at how these powers can be strengthened and scrutinised over the course of the Bill’s passage.

A number of Members spoke about the Bill’s application to veterans. I am grateful to all who spoke about the important contribution of those people who have served our armed forces and served our nations in years past. The Bill is deliberately drawn to focus relentlessly on armed forces personnel serving today and their families. That is not because we wish to discard the experiences of veterans; far from it. It is because we believe—looking at the continuous attitude surveys, the falling morale and more people leaving our armed forces than joining—there is a problem that needs to be addressed for those people who serve our nation.

The powers of the Armed Forces Commissioner are deliberately drawn to focus on those people who serve. It is explicit in the Bill that we are dealing with people who serve in uniform today and their families, and we make no apology for doing so. However, a number of issues have been raised in the debate, and I shall be grateful if those who have raised them continue to take them up with the Minister for Veterans and People, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns), who is keen for us not only to support veterans but, in particular, to look at the existing programmes and policies to ensure that they are worthwhile.

[Jim Shannon]

Many soldiers and other service personnel suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder and may be reluctant to come forward and seek help, but the people who know them best are their families, who can do so on their behalf. That is the great thing about the Bill: it provides that opportunity.

[Luke Pollard]

The hon. Gentleman is right about the important role that families play in supporting not just serving personnel but veterans. I am grateful to him for mentioning families, and to a number of other Members who spoke passionately about that important role that they play and the need for the commissioner to be open to representations from family members. I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for Slough, who spoke about bereaved families in an intervention during the Secretary of State’s speech. The Bill does not give an exact definition of family members; that will be included in secondary legislation that will be published between the House of Commons and House of Lords stages. I am glad that the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell talked about kinship carers, and I should be happy to discuss them with her. We want to get this right, and putting such a definition in the Bill will enable it to be locked in. I want Members on both sides of the House to feel empowered to challenge us and help us to provide that definition, so that the Bill is drafted adequately to help serving personnel and their families to deal with service life—and that must include all the shapes and sizes of families as they exist today.

A number of Members mentioned the spending of 2.5% of GDP on defence, to which the Government are committed. The Bill states explicitly that the Armed Forces Commissioner will deal with general service welfare matters. I think it important for me to put that on record, because the commissioner will be dealing with the lived experience of those who serve and their families. This will not involve looking into “Secret Squirrel” operations or operational deployments, or the spending of 2.5%, 2.4% or any other figure; it will involve looking specifically at the welfare of those who serve. However, I realise that a number of Members want to make points about the 2.5%, and I will continue to encourage them to do so. I hope that they also welcome the extra £3 billion for defence that was announced in the Budget only a few weeks ago.

Several Members spoke about the armed forces covenant and this new Government’s manifesto commitment to putting it fully into law. I reassure them that the determination to do that is strong in the ministerial team. The Defence Secretary himself has made it clear that he wants it to be included in the armed forces Bill, which is the next piece of legislation on which the MOD will be working. I am grateful to the Members who spoke so passionately about the importance of the covenant in their constituencies. My hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent Central and for Hartlepool in particular, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and my next-door neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View, spoke with passion about armed forces champions. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View and I share a brilliant armed forces champion in Councillor Pauline Murphy, and her determination and fierce approach to protecting and supporting the armed forces family are precisely what I hope to see in the Armed Forces Commissioner, because we need someone who will focus relentlessly on improving service life.

[Mr Francois]

When the Bill goes into Committee next month we shall be able to explore these issues in more detail, but—particularly for the benefit of the Royal British Legion and Poppyscotland—will the Minister, before he sits down, update the House on what point we have reached in respect of the national veterans commissioner?

[Luke Pollard]

The right hon. Gentleman may have missed my earlier suggestion that Members should take up their points with the Minister for Veterans and People, because this Bill is about serving personnel. However, I recognise the genuine concern felt by the organisations that he has mentioned, and I encourage him to speak to the Veterans Minister, who is currently looking at representation for veterans. I expect the commissioner to have relationships with a host of organisations across the country, and I am happy for that to be picked up.

The hon. Member for Strangford asked serious questions—as I believe did the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford—about what will happen with a complaint being processed by the current Service Complaints Ombudsman for the Armed Forces that is transferred to the Armed Forces Commissioner. If it is a service complaint, and the complaint relates to a period of service and was raised within the time limit, the Armed Forces Commissioner will continue to investigate even if the complainant has left the forces. That is the same as the current SCOAF position. For new Armed Forces Commissioner investigations, it will be at the discretion of the commissioner whether to continue the investigation, bearing in mind that their investigations will be largely thematic, rather than picking up individual cases. I hope that reassures Members that the work will continue and any complaint currently being handled by the SCOAF will be continued.

That gives me a good opportunity to thank our current SCOAF, Mariette Hughes, and her team for their work. The Bill is designed deliberately not to adjust the service complaints system. The opportunity to do so in legislation may exist in an armed forces Bill, and I am happy to speak to Members who have concerns about the legislation relating to service complaints so that we can make sure that any edits required are included in the next such Bill.

A number of Members asked who can raise a complaint with the Armed Forces Commissioner. I am pleased to confirm that whether someone is a regular, a reserve, a recruit or a re-joiner, they will be able to raise an issue with the commissioner, as will family members of those people, in relation to the commissioner’s investigation work. That relates to the rank and grade question. We expect everyone, especially within defence, to treat the Armed Forces Commissioner with respect. The Secretary of State will be required by law to assist the commissioner with their investigations, and the appointment process that we are seeking to start will be for a very senior appointment. I reassure colleagues that the commissioner will require security clearance at a high level, because of the visits that they may make to military establishments, and they will be bound by the Official Secrets Act. Any investigation and anything they come across on their base visits will be held in the secrecy and at the classification that it deserves.

There were a number of questions about digital access. It will be up to the commissioner to decide how people will be able to raise an issue with them, rather than for us to specify it in the Bill, but I understand the issues that colleagues have raised and I would expect the commissioner to be fully accessible on various platforms, both digital and non-digital.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar asked the devolution question. As this is a reserved matter, it is the responsibility of the Westminster Parliament to deal with it here. However, it is conceivable that the Armed Forces Commissioner may investigate an issue that is the responsibility of the Westminster Government in England but is devolved to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. In such circumstances, we anticipate that the Armed Forces Commissioner would engage with devolved Assemblies and Administrations, and I would expect a relationship to be formed between them over time so that any issues could be addressed fully. The legislation will be for the MOD to apply, and reports will ultimately flow through the House of Commons Defence Committee, but I recognise what my hon. Friend said and I hope that, through the operation of the Bill, that will be developed.

I am really grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for joining me in one of my nerdy pursuits in defence legislation and asking why Gibraltar is not covered. As a former Defence Minister, he will know that the reason Gibraltar is often excluded from defence legislation, separate from other overseas territories, is that it has an agreement with the United Kingdom to replicate the Armed Forces Act in its own legislation, but serving personnel and their families stationed in Gibraltar should be in no doubt that they will be able to access the Armed Forces Commissioner. I reassure the hon. Member for Strangford that clause 6(1) clearly sets out that the Bill will apply to Northern Ireland and, indeed, all members of our United Kingdom family of nations.

A number of colleagues mentioned the commissioner’s budget. The budget has been modelled on input from the German model. That is why we are proposing an increase from the current SCOAF budget to £4.5 million to £5.5 million. The shadow Minister wondered why that figure arose a few times in the debate. If he turns to page 12 of the explanatory notes, he will see that it says “£4.5 - £5.5m”. I suspect that is the reason why so many Members raised the figure, but it will be for the commissioner to determine how many staff they wish to employ, in what roles and how the budget is allocated.

The Chair of the Defence Committee asked how the Bill sits with our broader strategy for our armed forces personnel. This is our first step in our work of renewing the contract between the nation and those who serve. It is exactly right, as was mentioned earlier, that it forms only one part of what we have announced. The wraparound childcare announcement that the Secretary of State made at the weekend is a good example of the direction of travel that people serving in our armed forces should expect from this Government: a clear direction that says we will look not only at the kit, capabilities and doctrine in the strategic defence review, but at the lived experience for each and every one who serves, to see how we can improve it. That relates to the broader strategy about how we can measure success—not only in terms of the lived experience improvements and the additional scrutiny of such issues, but the opportunity for us to do that.

I may disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North on where the home of the Royal Navy is, as I represent Devonport in Plymouth, but I am grateful for all the contributions. Finally, I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot, who summed up the debate very well when she said that armed forces personnel

“just want the basic equipment that they need to be able to do their jobs and a good life for their families…because if they are willing to fight for us, it is the very least that we can do.”

I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Programme)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill:

Committal

(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 17 December 2024.

(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.

(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Jeff Smith.)

Question agreed to.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Money)

King’s recommendation signified.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:

(a) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of State, and

(b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under or by virtue of any other Act out of money so provided.—(Jeff Smith.)

Question agreed to.