Accession (Immigration and Worker Authorisation) (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the draft Orders and Regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.

Motions agreed.

Business of the House

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the debates on the Motions in the names of Baroness Emerton and the Earl of Sandwich set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.

Motion agreed.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the draft order be referred to a Grand Committee.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, these obligations are covered by no less than four different government departments. Which of the noble Lord the Leader of the House’s ministerial colleagues will be taking this through Grand Committee? I ought to declare an interest as a member of the gang of four who originally persuaded the last Administration to accept the original renewable transport fuel obligation.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, it is good to hear the noble Lord’s interest in the subject. The lead department is the Department for Transport. The departmental spokesman in this House will be speaking to this particular Motion. My noble friend Lord Attlee on the Front Bench will be briefed by other government departments and will speak for the whole Government. Therefore, other government departments who have an interest in this subject will answer any questions that the noble Lord or anybody else will have.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the debate on the motion in the name of Lord Lamont of Lerwick set down for tomorrow in Grand Committee shall be limited to four hours.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, given the pressure of business in this House and the lack of business in the other place, all noble Lords are anxious to know when this longest-ever Session of Parliament will end. I would therefore be grateful if the noble Lord the Leader of the House could confirm the information given by his right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons on Thursday 10 November, at col. 454 of Hansard, that the Queen’s Speech will be held in May.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition quite correctly gave notice of her question to my office just before Question Time, and I am very grateful to her.

I have not had time to consult my right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal, Sir George Young, and neither he nor I wish to mislead either House in any way. However, I have now had his words drawn to my attention, and I have read them, so perhaps I can give some context and perspective to the words he used. He was answering a question from his opposite number about the desirability of autumn versus spring State Openings. He was referring to a Statement that he had made on 13 September, when he said that State Openings,

“will, in future, ordinarily take place in the spring, rather than in the autumn”.—[Official Report, Commons 13/9/10; col. 34WS.]

That is very much what he intended to say. The context of this is the new Fixed-term Parliaments Act under which Sessions will run after general elections in May, and from May to May. That was what he was trying to say.

My right honourable friend may also be taking a very pessimistic view of the progress of business in this House. I think that the usual channels have a plan to deliver this Session in a timely manner, and I hope that we can do better than that.

[Lord Peston]

Can the noble Lord clarify one bit of his answer? This has not only been a very long Session; it has now also become about the most boring Session of my 25 years in this House. Is he saying that the facts of the matter are that the Government have not made up their mind at all about when the Queen’s Speech will be?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is very much subject to the progress of business. As to the quality of legislation, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I wonder whether it would be helpful to the House if, rather than explaining the context in which Sir George Young made his Statement in the other House, we actually repeated the words that he used. He said:

“I made a statement, I think, last year on the fact that the Queen’s Speech will be held in May to coincide with the fixed election dates of every five years”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/11/11; col. 454.]

That promise—and I think that I can put it in those terms—was repeated endlessly during the passage of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill by, I think, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. I even put down an amendment to try to ensure that there would be a fixed date for the Queen. Given the Government’s obsession with fixed-term Parliaments—which I oppose, but the Bill has been passed—there should be fixed Sessions. Surely there is a logic to that. Frankly, if the Queen’s Speech is not in May of next year, it will be very close to breaking faith with the clear undertakings given during the passage of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. I therefore ask the Leader to do more than just consult his colleague down at the other end—perhaps they should try to get their acts together.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we will make an announcement in the first part of next year about when the actual date will be, and we are very happy to stick with spring. It is true that this Session has been very long, for reasons which I think will be readily understood. However, we believe that from the start of the next Session, we will go towards annual Sessions that will aim to finish around April or May.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, is it not becoming rather ridiculous that we still have not had a debate on the crisis in the eurozone? Perhaps the expression “fiddling while Rome burns” would be appropriate in this context. The usual debate on the Chancellor’s normal Statement is not really a substitute for a debate on the crisis in the eurozone. We need to debate both.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend the government Chief Whip, who tells me that there is a debate planned on the eurozone on 1 December.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, returning to the Queen’s Speech, in all seriousness, is this uncertainty not causing tremendous problems for people planning ahead—not just Members of the House of Commons but Members of the House of Lords, all those involved in the State Opening and, not least, Her Majesty the Queen? Is it not incumbent upon the Government to say now when the State Opening is going to be held so we know exactly how to plan ahead for next year?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, does a good job of righteous indignation on this subject. I assure him that in past years it has been entirely normal to announce the date of the Queen’s Speech about four or five weeks in advance, and we aim to do precisely the same this year.

[Lord Soley]

I admire the Leader’s ability to put this in perspective. I have to say, it is easier to get things in perspective if you do not have to stand on your head. Is not the reality behind this that actually, as Members on all sides of the House have said, the problem for the House is the quantity and quality of the legislation being brought before it?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have already answered many questions on this. The quantity is no greater than similar Sessions after a general election, and of course Parliament is trying to improve the quality by putting amendments and occasionally defeating the Government.

Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2011

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord McNally]

That the draft order and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.

Motions agreed.

Legislation

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to reduce the volume of primary and secondary legislation being introduced in Parliament.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, like every Government before us, this Government intend to enact the legislative programme set out in the Queen’s Speech. The number of pages in primary legislation enacted so far in this Session is less than in other comparable Sessions.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that somewhat spare Answer. However, will the Government give serious consideration to the establishment of a commission of wise people, properly resourced, to look into the now profound and multi-faceted problem of increasing—and increasingly complex—legislation, which has dire effects in terms of citizen disaffection, bureaucracy and failed implementation?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with what my noble friend says, and he is right; legislation is more difficult and complicated, in large part because we live in a more difficult and complicated world. You just have to look at the growth in technology and the subsequent substantial increase in regulation and secondary legislation. There is more legislation from Europe; there are active judges and so forth. However, I wonder whether my noble friend’s solution is necessarily the right one. You could not get much more collective wisdom than is present in your Lordships’ House, where every piece of legislation is discussed and debated very thoroughly.

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

Does the noble Lord agree that this epidemic of legislative obesity has produced on average 3,165 pages of government Acts each year for the past three years, compared with 1,325 pages a year under the Attlee Government in 1945 to 1947, when really important legislation was being enacted? This extends to secondary legislation; in the last yearly statistics—we are right up to date—there were 10,662 pages of statutory instruments, of which admittedly 8.5 per cent were made under the European Communities Act but 95.1 per cent were our national legislative mountain. Does the Minister agree that is extremely difficult for ordinary citizens to comprehend what is being enacted in their name?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am not going to quarrel with the noble Lord’s figures or, indeed, his conclusion; increasingly people have difficulty in catching up with the changes that are made regularly in legislation. Unless we get this right, there is a danger that at some time in our lives we will all become law-breakers solely out of ignorance. We keep these things under review and we wish to have legislation which is clear and simple and easy to understand. I know that this House will support our efforts.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Haskel]

The Leader of the House says there are fewer pages enacted. Is this because the legislation is poorly drafted and requires a lot of work by your Lordships?

[Lord Strathclyde]

No, my Lords, of course not. What is true, however, is that certainly in this Parliament there are more and more amendments being put down by your Lordships. Your Lordships are incredibly active in wishing to see changes or even putting down probing amendments, and that means that we have spent far longer on legislation than we have done in previous Sessions, particularly on Committees of the whole House. That is not necessarily a bad thing but it is also true that your Lordships need to have a little bit of self-denying ordinance so that we do more than just delay the programme of government.

[Baroness Prashar]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, my noble friend should not feel unduly exposed in this because the problem is of great antiquity. Does he know that Tacitus said in silver Rome that whereas formerly we suffered from crimes, today we suffer from laws. Dean Swift began trying to find a solution when he said that in Brobdingnag:

“No laws of that country must exceed in words the number of letters in their alphabet; but few of them extend even to that length. They are expressed in the most plain and simple terms, so that people are not mercurial enough to discover above one interpretation”.

In Brobdingnag, of course, to write a comment upon any law was a capital crime.

Seriously, does the noble Lord recall that under the guidance of Lord Hailsham, for example, and his predecessor, Reginald Manningham-Buller, within the Cabinet structure there was severe constant scrutiny of the very problem with which the House is now concerned? It does need to be taken seriously.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, only in this House could we go from Prime Minister Attlee’s Government to Tacitus, to Swift, and then to today’s Cabinet. My right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal, Sir George Young, and I—and others—yield to no one in our desire to try to make legislation shorter, clearer and better. It is not an easy task—and it is a serious task, as my noble and learned friend pointed out—but I also know that in this House there is a desire to achieve these aims.

[Baroness Prashar]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Prashar]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is desirable to have an automatic review of legislation after three to five years, to measure its effectiveness?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the previous Government instituted a process of post-legislative scrutiny that we have taken up, and it kicks in after three to five years, when the Government publish a memorandum. Increasingly in future Sessions of Parliament, we will see more work being done to measure the effectiveness of legislation that this Parliament has passed.

Business of the House

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord McNally]

That the debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Elton set down for today shall be limited to 1½ hours and that in the name of Lord Selkirk of Douglas to 3½ hours.

Motion agreed.

Procedure of the House (Proposal 5)

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, the Leader of the House made clear what happens at Question Time as to which blocs there were. My understanding is that, at Statements, Liberal Democrats are a separate bloc from the Tories, the Labour Party and everybody else. Can he make the position clear?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I think that the Leader’s Group is trying to be helpful, in part because of the example that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, laid out. The proposal is not for the generality of Statements; it is for the most exceptional circumstances; there is the safeguard of the usual channels. The example that the noble Lord gave, of last year’s Autumn Statement, when it was taken on the second day, is precisely the one that we all had in mind. To spend an hour and a half on the Minister reading out the Statement was, I think, a bit much for all of us. The proposal is not designed to deal with most Statements.

On some of what the noble Countess said about blocs during Statements, I am not entirely sure what the situation is. Perhaps I could discuss it with the Chief Whip and the opposition Chief Whip. I think that there is a slightly different system at Statements, with the Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, Labour, Cross Benches and anybody else taken more in rotation than at Question Time.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, before the Leader sits down, perhaps I may ask him about the important point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, which is that most Statements are currently made available in our Printed Paper Office when the Minister sits down in the House of Commons. It would be extremely helpful if they were made available when the Minister stood up in the House of Commons.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I think so, too. I shall see whether we can make this happen. There may be some extremely good, logical reason why the Statement is not made available earlier, but if it can be changed then I think that it should.

[Lord Geddes]

My Lords, I should like to add one point that I do not think has been mentioned. The final words of the proposal are almost the most important. They say that,

“statements should not be made the occasion for an immediate debate”.

If this proposal is carried, I hope that the House will bear that in mind.

Motion agreed.

Procedure of the House (Proposal 1)

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

I simply cannot agree with the noble Lord. As someone who tries to get in on Questions quite a lot—only because I am interested in a subject which is quite topical at the moment—I would have thought that when noble Lords get up who have not spoken and do not speak very much, the courtesy in your Lordships’ House is definitely there, to hear the new person, to give them a chance and so on. So I think that this aspect of our bad behaviour—and I speak also as someone who gives way a lot, and I am very happy to go on doing it—is exaggerated.

I am not sure that this Motion on the Order Paper really helps us. As I understand it, the Lord Speaker would simply choose a group, whether the Conservatives, the Cross Benches, Labour or the Bishops—though we normally give way to Bishops in any case. Time would be taken because it would go to the leader of the chosen group to decide who was going to speak. I am not sure that, as drafted, this takes us forward at all.

Finally, I would ask the Leader of the House, if he is going to speak, if he could clarify a doubt which the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, mentioned, and which is in the minds of many of us when we decide whether we are trying to get in at Question Time. Are the Government one group, and does each speaker from the Government count as a question asked by the Government, or are we in fact dealing with the Liberal Democrat party and the Conservative Party, and therefore do they each get a shot at Questions as the groups revolve around the Chamber?

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, what an extraordinary debate. I have never seen the House so impeccably well behaved, gracefully giving way to each other without being asked and without any intervention from me or anybody else. If it were like this all the time we would never need to have this debate.

This debate has been in gestation for some years, since the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, published his initial report, which settled the position for two or three years. It has become an increasingly hot topic and I very much welcome the debate that we have had today and the report of the Leader’s Group. It is important that we have this discussion.

I ought to lay out my cards at the very start of this debate. I do not favour the proposal. If it is called to a vote, and I am sure that it will be, I shall vote against it. Why? I think that the Leader’s Group sought to find a compromise, and in that it may well have created the seeds of doubt. I do not think that it will work. Simply moving the powers that I hold to the Woolsack—and many others have made this point—will not make things any better. If there is a failure in the current way that I interpret the rules, I am not convinced that the Speaker will do it any better. Whether or not we want to change the role of the Chair, it is not the proposal that we have before us today.

Secondly, it is the start of the end of self-regulation. I very much pray in aid the brief speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Wright of Richmond, who said that we should pause and reflect before we let go of the ancient way of self-regulation that has served the interests of the House for so long.

Thirdly, as a result of that, it will lead us inexorably to the Lord Speaker being given the power of calling individual Peers, which in turn will lead us to the system of the House of Commons. I have never been a Member of the House of Commons. I have been to see it from our own Peers’ Gallery and I have watched it on television. Presumably, the House of Commons has its own ways of behaviour, customs and traditions. However, I wonder whether any fair-minded, reasonable citizen who sat in our Gallery and then that of the House of Commons would really believe that the House of Commons is better behaved. I think not.

A number of Peers, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and my noble friend Lady Sharples, said that part of the problem was that I am not up on my feet quickly enough to bring order to the House. I will respond to that. I do not see my role as that of a Speaker bringing order. As others, including the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, said, I see my role very much as trying to guide the will of the House to put itself back in order. However, if the proposal is not agreed and the powers are retained by the Leader, I would not mind having my own little experiment of leaping to my feet with greater alacrity and seeking to guide the House more urgently.

The second criticism of my role was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, the noble Lords, Lord Grocott and Lord Campbell-Savours, and others. They said that my role is essentially political as a Minister of the Crown and that these powers should not be vested in someone who is so clearly a politician. I understand the impeccable logic of that, but I still think that it is completely wrong. Ministers in all sorts of roles also have to be able to carry out an independent role of leadership, which is what I very much try to do as Leader of the whole House. I hope that the House can recognise when I am being nakedly political and also when I am representing the interests of the whole House, which is what I try to do at Question Time.

A number of questions were asked about my interpretation of the rules. The usual channels, through the Chief Whips, have decided and agreed that the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party at Question Time are treated as one group. Therefore, we take it in turns. That gives an advantage—contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, might believe—to the party of opposition. It is right that the party of opposition should have the lion's share of Question Time: after all, it is trying to scrutinise the Government. For instance, today there were 24 supplementary questions, of which 15 came from the Labour Party. I am bound to say that if this power were moved to the independence of the Woolsack and the Lord Speaker, I am not so sure that that arrangement would be maintained. One has only to listen to the speech of my noble friend Lord Alderdice to see that.

It is not so much a question of, “If it ain’t broke, don't fix it”; there is always room for improvement and for doing things better. In the first year of coalition, we had a substantial increase—more than 100—in the number of Peers in the House. There was a difficult sense of assimilation. There were certainly Members of another place, on all sides of the House, who thought that they had arrived in a House of Commons without any rules. That was not the case; it is not the case. As the first anniversary kicked by there was a sense of settling down in the House. I have noticed that the House seems to be happier in its skin, with new Peers and the coalition working together. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, was quite right in pointing that out.

The most difficult decision at Question Time is what to do, if I can put it as politely as possible, with the Bishops and the noble Lords, Lord Pearson and Lord Stoddart, who clearly represent a view—not the Bishops; I must not confuse the Bishops with the noble Lords—that is live outside this House. As an act of great courtesy, and rightly, the House always gives way to the Bishops. I think that we should maintain that, but I am not sure that this proposal allows for that.

I have learnt a lot from listening to this debate. I think that we have had a very good opportunity to air all the grievances and potential problems, and, I hope, also the benefits of the system that we already have.

[The Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, if no other noble Lord wishes to intervene, I beg to move that Motion 1 be agreed to.