Business
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I rise to intervene on two separate points rather than make two separate interventions. The first is on the conduct of Members of your Lordships’ House and the second is on the Local Government Finance Bill, which the House is about to consider this afternoon.
On the first issue, allegations have been made in the media about a number of former senior service personnel and their readiness to lobby current Ministers and officials in the Ministry of Defence about defence procurement—in other words, paid advocacy. Two of those named are Members of your Lordships’ House. When similar allegations were made in January 2009 by the same newspaper, the Sunday Times, about a number of other Peers, the House took action against those individuals and toughened up our Code of Conduct in relation to paid advocacy. I wrote to the Leader of the House on this matter yesterday, asking him to make a statement.
These are serious matters. They were when we suspended Members of this House previously and they are now. The reputation of this House and Members of this House, and the conduct of Members of this House, is again being called into question. Experience of these matters shows that the best way to consider and resolve these issues is through the improved mechanism that we now have available, including the Lords Commissioner for Standards. I believe that Members of your Lordships’ House should be kept informed about issues such as these, and that is why I am raising this matter now.
The second issue is the Local Government Finance Bill. Based on a briefing given to Peers yesterday by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, we understand that the Government propose to make an announcement in this House this afternoon on transitional funding in connection with council tax support schemes. We do not yet know the detail, but it is clear that the changes to the Bill, at this late stage, will be material. I understand that there was a Written Statement yesterday, but today represents the first opportunity for Members of this House to debate these issues. Accordingly, yesterday we wrote to the Leader of the House asking for assurances that at Third Reading, which is due next week, all Members of your Lordships’ House, including the Opposition, will be able to table and, if necessary, vote on amendments—new and substantive amendments —driven by the Government’s announcement today. We received a reply from the Leader of the House rejecting such an easement of usual procedure, with the result that Members of this House will not be able to table such amendments following today’s announcement by the Government. We do not believe that this is correct. We do not believe that such an insistence is to the benefit either of Members of this House or of this House carrying out its role of properly scrutinising this Bill. Accordingly, we ask the Leader of the House to reconsider his response and provide Members of this House with the opportunity to carry out their constitutional role.
I apologise for having to intervene in this way, and on two separate points, but I believe that both are important matters which are of concern to this House.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I am surprised by the intervention of the Leader of the Opposition, particularly on the first question. These are enormously serious allegations that have been made against Members of this House. I happen to know that the noble Baroness asked the Lord Speaker for a PNQ on this matter and the request was turned down. I think that it is discourteous of the noble Baroness to have raised this issue because our rules do not provide for the second-guessing of a ruling on a PNQ by the Lord Speaker.
Since the noble Baroness was Leader of the House, this House has created a new code of practice and a new independent Commissioner for Standards. We should allow the new independent Commissioner for Standards to do his job, given his responsibilities, and to carry out any inquiries that he sees fit.
Secondly, on the Bill that we are dealing with today, it is completely standard practice for Governments to react to suggestions that have been made, to amendments that have been put down and debated in this House, in an attempt to be helpful to the House. That was the reply that I gave the noble Baroness. It is much better for the Report stage of this Bill to continue and for my noble friend the Minister to make whatever case she wishes to make as to why the Government have made this statement, and for the amendments to be taken in the order in which they were put down.
Lord Laming
My Lords, I am disappointed that the noble Baroness raised the first point, because she knows that the matter has been referred to the independent Commissioner for Standards. It is absolutely right, and in fairness to my colleagues involved in this, that the matter is handled in accordance with the procedures agreed by this House and away from the Floor of the House. I hope that all Members of the House will respect that.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I think that what the noble Baroness is saying is that if the Government had not made a statement yesterday or this morning we would not have had this little debate at all, because we would have carried on with the amendments as they were. The Government are trying to be helpful. Surely the right time for this debate to continue is when we move into the Report stage. My noble friend can then make her position utterly clear and the House can take a view.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I rise to speak on both issues again. On the first point, these are of course deeply serious allegations, which is why I believe that the House should be informed. The process that we have now is absolutely correct; I am delighted that the procedure was changed; and I have the utmost confidence in the Commissioner for Standards. I just think that it is important that the House knows what is happening. I am glad that the noble Lord the Convenor of the Cross Benches was able to tell us what he has done; I am sure that the House is glad to know what has happened. We need to be open and transparent on these issues for the sake of the reputation of this House and its Members.
On the second point, I was merely being courteous in alerting the noble Lord to the fact that we would wish to table amendments at Third Reading and vote on them. I think that that is what the majority in the House would wish to do, which is why I wrote the letter yesterday.
Scotland: Referendum
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, with permission, I shall now repeat a Statement made by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland in the House of Commons a few minutes ago. The Statement is as follows:
“You will appreciate that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is unable to deliver the Statement to the House today, as he has attended the meeting between the Prime Minister and the First Minister in Edinburgh to secure agreement on the independence referendum for Scotland.
In January of this year, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland delivered a Statement to this House about the referendum. At that time, we acknowledged the Scottish National Party’s victory in the May 2011 Scottish parliamentary election and its manifesto pledge to hold an independence referendum. The Government also made clear their view that the Scottish Parliament did not have the legal power to legislate for an independence referendum. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State made an offer then that the UK Government would bring forward an order to give the Scottish Parliament that legal power. Since January, the UK and Scottish Governments have held consultations. There has been considerable public debate and numerous discussions between Ministers. Many of those discussions took place between me and Bruce Crawford MSP, Minister for Parliamentary Business and Government Strategy in the Scottish Government, and I would like to acknowledge his contribution.
Following 10 months of deliberation and four weeks of direct negotiations between the Scottish Government’s Deputy First Minister and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, I am pleased to report to the House that, today in Edinburgh, the Prime Minister and the First Minister have made an agreement that will allow a legal, fair and decisive referendum to take place. This is a significant agreement. The two Governments have agreed that there should be a referendum. We have agreed that the referendum will consist of a single question. It will offer a choice between independence and remaining within the United Kingdom. We have agreed that it must be held before the end of 2014. The referendum will be based on the normal legal framework for UK referendums, with oversight from the Electoral Commission. This includes the key issues of how the referendum question will be determined and how the rules governing spending and campaigning will be established.
Following today’s agreement, the Government will bring forward an Order in Council under Section 30 of the Scotland Act. I have today placed a copy of the agreement and the draft order in the Library of the House. The agreement and draft order are also available to Members from the Printed Paper Office. This order will be laid before Parliament on 22 October and will be debated by both Houses of this Parliament and by the Scottish Parliament. All Members of this House will have the opportunity to consider and vote on the order. If both Parliaments approve the order, and after it is approved by Her Majesty in Council, the Scottish Parliament will have the legal competence to legislate for the referendum. We hope that the order will be passed by February 2013; once that has happened, the Scottish Government will introduce a referendum Bill setting out the wording of the question, the date of the referendum and the rules for the campaign for the Scottish Parliament to consider.
As part of today’s agreement, the two Governments have agreed that the rules for the referendum will be based on the rules set out in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. Those rules were used successfully in the two referendums that took place last year. The two Governments have also confirmed that the Electoral Commission will review the proposed referendum question and that its report will be laid before the Scottish Parliament. This is the same process as applies to other UK referendums. Interested parties will be able to submit their views on the question to the Electoral Commission in the usual way. The Scottish Government will then respond to the Electoral Commission’s report.
Both Governments are agreed on the need for maximum transparency in this process and for a level playing field. Therefore, as part of today’s agreement, the Scottish Government will consult the two campaign organisations that have been established for their views before proposing spending limits for the referendum campaign to the Scottish Parliament. The Electoral Commission will also provide the Scottish Government with advice on the appropriate spending limits for the two campaigns in the referendum, as has happened in previous referendums, such as the 2011 referendum in Wales on further powers for the Welsh Assembly. In that referendum, the Electoral Commission recommended that the spending limit for designated campaign organisations should be set by reference to the expenditure limits applying to elections to the relevant legislature. In its response to both Governments’ consultation documents, the Electoral Commission provided its view that this model remains appropriate for the Scottish independence referendum.
Both Governments agree that all those who were entitled to vote in the Scottish Parliament elections in May 2011 should be able to vote in the referendum. As for all other referendums held in any part of the UK, it will be the legislation that establishes the referendum that will set the franchise. It will therefore be for the Scottish Parliament to define the franchise in the referendum Bill, as it would do for any other referendum or, indeed, election on matters within its devolved competence.
Although both Governments are agreed that the basis of that franchise will be the franchise for the Scottish Parliament elections, the Scottish Government have previously set out their proposals for extending the franchise to allow 16 and 17 year-olds to vote. It will now be for them to make the case for that change and to deal with the technical issues that may arise. There are, of course, a range of opinions in this House about changes to the voting age. However, having agreed the principle that the Scottish Parliament should have the legal power to legislate for the referendum—that it should be a referendum “made in Scotland”—the Government accept that it should be for the Scottish Parliament to determine the franchise. I fully expect that the Scottish Government’s proposals will be robustly debated in that Parliament. Any decisions taken by the Scottish Parliament for the referendum will not affect the voting age for parliamentary and local government elections anywhere in the United Kingdom.
Today’s agreement is important, as will be the consideration of the agreement and the order by this House, but I would also like us to reflect on what will come after. Now that the Governments have agreed the process for the referendum, it is vital that we get on with the real debate about the most important political decision that people in Scotland will ever take. The UK Government have already started to prepare the analysis and evidence that people in Scotland are calling for. Over the next year, this Government will publish thorough, evidence-based information that will set out the key issues in the independence debate. That analysis will be comprehensive, robust and open to external scrutiny. I fully expect it to show that Scotland is better off within the United Kingdom and that the rest of the United Kingdom is better with Scotland as part of it.
This Government believe passionately in the United Kingdom. We will work tirelessly over the next two years to show the Scottish people—and everyone else in this country—that together we are stronger, that together we can overcome the challenges confronting us and that together we can build a better future for Scotland as an integral part of the United Kingdom. The debates ahead will no doubt be long; they will no doubt be challenging and, at times, heated. But I fervently believe that, with the support of colleagues across this House, across Scotland and across the whole of the United Kingdom, in autumn 2014 fellow Scots will join me in choosing to stay part of the United Kingdom. We are indeed better together”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I very much welcome what the noble Lord said in his closing remarks. He is right to say that all of us, across the political divide, should work together to get a result whereby Scotland feels part of the United Kingdom and wants to continue in what has been one of the most successful, if not the most successful, partnership that the world has ever seen.
The noble Lord asked a variety of detailed questions and I shall try to answer them. He started by saying that this was an historic day. It is; it is the most extraordinarily historic day and one that I never wished to see. I, for one, never thought that the Scottish nationalists would be able to achieve the majority that they did under the electoral system used for the Scottish Parliament, but in May 2011 the SNP won an outright majority; it won 69 of the 129 seats and part of its commitment was that there should be a referendum, even though it knew that it did not have the legislative ability to achieve that.
The noble Lord asked about the franchise. I expect that we will come back to that in the course of this debate. The first and most important thing to say is that the franchise is up to the Scottish Parliament to decide; it is not up to this House to decide.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I hear some “noes” around the place, but that happens to be the position. Noble Lords may not agree with it, but that is the purpose of the Section 30 order: to allow the Scottish Parliament to decide the franchise. The Scottish Government have said that they intend to try to include 16 and 17 year-olds, or certain 16 and 17 year-olds, in the franchise. We believe that there are some difficulties in doing so. I cannot speak for any other political parties, but Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament will campaign and vote against that provision. I, for one, as a parent of teenagers, would rather that my children were learning a bit more maths and physics in school than working on whether they should be voting in the referendum.
Of course, advice from the Electoral Commission is not statutorily binding on the Scottish Government or the Scottish Parliament, but when it comes to the question I think that there would be a political price to pay not to take the advice of the Electoral Commission, which has been specifically set up to offer such advice. It has given advice to the Scottish Government in the consultation process on the franchise and will no doubt do so on the question. The same goes for the financing of the referendum and the referendum campaigns.
As for Scots living in the rest of United Kingdom, I see no reason why they should not be part of the debate on policy and funding, but that will ultimately be a matter for the Scottish Parliament.
The noble Lord’s penultimate remark was about scrutiny of the First Minister. That will depend on the quality of the scrutiny carried out in the Scottish Parliament. I hope that a great deal of scrutiny of these measures is given in the Scottish Parliament.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, has my noble friend had the opportunity to look at the Scottish Government’s website this afternoon? It states quite clearly that after the Section 30 order has been agreed, the Scottish Government will bring forward legislation that will set out the date, the franchise, the wording of the question, the rules on campaign finance and other rules governing the conduct of the campaign. It states:
“A final decision on these aspects will be taken by the Scottish Parliament, taking full account of the responses to the Scottish Government’s referendum consultation”.
If a final decision has not been taken, and will be taken by the Scottish Parliament, what exactly have my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Prime Minister been negotiating about? If we are being asked to buy a pig in a poke and to pass a Section 30 order before we know the contents of the Bill, is that not marginalising the House of Commons? Would it not be better, at the very least, given that we cannot amend a Section 30 order, that we do not pass that order until we have seen the draft Bill that is to be put before the Scottish Parliament?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I always like it when my noble friend agrees with me and when I am in agreement with him. Sadly, that is not the case on this occasion. The key question is: what does this agreement today mean for the people of Scotland? It means, first of all, that there will be a single question on the ballot paper—no more than that. We understand that many in the Scottish Government wanted a two-question referendum. Secondly, there is a time limit. We now have certainty that the referendum must take place before the end of 2014. That is a tremendous advantage to clear the air, to remove the poison at the heart of Scottish politics and to give real certainty to politics throughout the United Kingdom.
I cannot disagree with the list that my noble friend read out. These will be matters for the Scottish Parliament. We are today announcing a Section 30 order that will devolve to the Scottish Parliament the ability to run the referendum and, naturally, it will have to answer those questions.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
Will the Leader of the House confirm that a Section 30 order is required to be passed by both Houses of this Parliament? That may be a tall order to achieve. From what he said today, and the manner in which he answered the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, one gets the impression that the Scottish Tory Party has learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, on the first question, it will be up to both Houses of the Parliament to agree the Section 30 order. I did not understand the second question at all. To coin a phrase, we are all in this together. Across this Dispatch Box—I do not know where the noble Lord stands on these great matters; I thought that he was rather in favour of the United Kingdom—we will be working together to ensure the desired result in the referendum.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, we have already had a year and a half of debate about Scottish independence and I must admit that the thought that we are to have another two years of debate fills me with gloom. We have the consolation of knowing that, through that period, public opinion has moved in favour of retaining our position in the United Kingdom and we must hope that that continues.
I was encouraged by what the noble Lord said a moment ago about the Electoral Commission, because the Statement itself was weak on that question. If the Electoral Commission takes the view that any question beginning with the words, “Do you agree that”, is a leading question, surely it will not be possible for the Scottish Parliament to ignore that. Would it not be better than having a yes/no question simply to have two conflicting statements against which the electorate put a cross: either, “I am in favour of Scottish independence”, or, “I am in favour of retaining the United Kingdom”?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, under this legislation, the referendum must take place by the end of 2014—I think that essentially it is understood that it should be in the autumn of 2014—so there is plenty of time to go. Some people will find that hard to put up with; some people will find it reasonable that we should have plenty of time to discuss these important issues. As for the question, the Electoral Commission is not binding on the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament must ultimately approve the question. The point that I was trying to make is that if there was a leading question with which the Electoral Commission disagreed—its report will be made available to the Scottish Parliament—I suspect that there would be a political price to pay for that.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
I welcomed the intervention of the Prime Minister earlier this year because I felt that many outstanding questions had to be addressed. One was the proposed date of the referendum. On that, to secure this agreement, the Government have capitulated. The two years that is now proposed for debate on this referendum could do untold damage, and not only to the Scottish economy—it could affect the British recovery as well. That has been a mistake. On the other side, it is positive that we have now secured agreement that there will be a legally binding referendum. The Scottish Government did not want a legally binding referendum; they wanted a softer option of an advisory referendum and we have stopped that. That is to be welcomed.
On the rules of that referendum, there are serious questions to be answered. Frankly, I am astonished that we have in front of us today the Section 30 order that could be passed by this House and the other House but not the draft referendum Bill that that Section 30 order will enable. In the months since the Prime Minister’s statement in January, I always expected that there would be the Section 30 order at the end of this process and that at the same time the draft referendum Bill on which that Section 30 order was based and on which the agreement had been reached would be published. I am disappointed that that is not in front of us today and I urge the Government to think seriously about pressing the Scottish Government to publish that referendum Bill in advance of the deliberations of this House rather than afterwards.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the referendum process is now legally watertight. The draft Section 30 order will provide the Scottish Parliament with the confidence to legislate for an independence referendum if it is passed by both Houses of Parliament.
As to the question of the Bill, there is no Bill before us. We have not seen a draft Bill. We wait to see what the Scottish Government publish. They have not yet published the answers to their consultation process. We would hope to see that soon. The noble Lord started by saying that two years is a long time to wait. We cannot force the Scottish Parliament to publish their draft Bill. We have had this negotiation, we have a time limit and I think that the months will pass by very quickly.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, I put on the record that I welcome the fact that there is one question and one question alone. That is right and fitting and it saves confusion. However, in the Statement a lot has been made of faith being put in the Electoral Commission. It should be borne in mind that only five years ago, in 2007, at the parliamentary elections the Electoral Commission had to step aside and the taxpayers of this country had to invite a Canadian expert, Mr Ron Gould, to investigate why 85,000 electors had their ballot paper rejected. That is the equivalent of one and a half constituencies in the Scottish Parliament. Because the Electoral Commission had played a part in preparing the electronic machines and making up the ballot paper, it could not get involved. That was a big mistake. I ask the Minister to pay close attention to the internal workings of the Electoral Commission to make sure that no one in this election has their ballot paper rejected.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I join with the noble Lord in saying that we have come to the right conclusion that there should be only one question. The most important thing in this debate is that we have absolute clarity of result and the only way of doing that is by having a single question with a yes/no answer.
I very much welcome what the noble Lord has said about the Electoral Commission. It is true, as he knows very well, that there was a problem in 2007 and I am sure that the Electoral Commission has learnt many lessons as a result of it. However, his main point was that Ministers should pay close attention to the workings of the Electoral Commission to make sure that this does not happen in this all-important referendum, and on that I completely agree with him.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, unless and until any constituent country in the United Kingdom becomes independent, it should surely be bound by the rules of the franchise which apply in the United Kingdom. Does my noble friend not accept that it is wrong to alter the franchise by the back door? That will be the consequence of our kow-towing—that is what it is—to the demands of the First Minister of Scotland. Can we please have the opportunity at the very least to see this draft Bill before we approve the order? If we do not, some of us may not feel inclined to approve it.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I cannot give my noble friend the comfort that he wants. There is nothing that we can do to oblige the Scottish Parliament to publish a draft Bill, and this very much depends on the process of the passage of that Bill in the Scottish Parliament.
On the second point on the franchise, such voting already takes place in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament decided that 16 and 17 year-olds who turned 18 during the lifetime of the register would be able to vote in the health board elections. It may be a small example but it is an example of where devolution on the franchise has already taken place. I reiterate that I am not in favour of a change in the franchise but it will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament to decide.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
My Lords, everyone in this House accepts that in these discussions compromise is necessary. But that compromise has to be informed by the need and the criteria for clarity, fairness and legitimacy. Let us accept that having one question certainly meets those criteria. However, there are two areas which fail to meet those criteria.
First, the idea of having the Scottish Parliament and the SNP effectively decide the question is not liable to assist in either legitimacy in the long run or fairness in the short term. There may be inadequacies, as has been pointed out, about the Electoral Commission, but I am sure that if anyone in Scotland was asked who was likely to be more objective in choosing a question between the SNP and the Electoral Commission, I would not bet against the Electoral Commission winning that judgment.
Secondly, as my noble friend Lord McConnell pointed out, to ask people to vote for a Section 30 before they know what they are voting for is similar to asking people to vote on devo-max before they know what they are voting on. Since we argued successfully against that—that people should not be asked to vote for a “pig in a poke”—if that applies in the Scottish referendum surely it applies in this House and the other Chamber.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord said that compromise was necessary and I think that all those who have followed this process would agree with him. He also mentioned clarity and we do have clarity in the single question. I am one of those who have never entirely understood what is meant by devo-max, and if you ask three people what they think it is you always get four different answers. Therefore, it is entirely right that we remove the opportunity for that question to be asked.
The question on the paper will be a question on independence. The precise wording will be for the Scottish Parliament to determine and will be set out in the referendum Bill to be introduced by the Scottish Government. However, the Scottish Government have agreed to refer the proposed referendum question and any preceding statement to the Electoral Commission for review of its intelligibility. It is important that interested parties will be able to submit their views on the proposed wording to the Electoral Commission as part of the commission’s review process in the normal way.
We have had experience of this already, although admittedly perhaps not on something this important or involving the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Government will respond to the report, indicating their response to any recommendations that the Electoral Commission may make. The point is that this will be a very public process. Equally, constitutionally it is right that it must be up to a parliament to decide what question should be on the paper. That is what this Parliament would demand and I can understand why we have concluded that it is right for the Scottish Parliament to do the same thing.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to add to this debate. There has been a startling degree of naiveté on the part of the Government in the negotiations that have taken place so far. I noted that the noble Lord the Leader of the House talked about the need for transparency and a level playing field, and he discussed the fact that a body of work is to be undertaken to ensure that the facts are properly put before the people of Scotland. I say to him that that is not enough. We have already had a degree of sophistry and confusion over whether Scotland would automatically be a member of the European Union and would have to adopt the euro. I have no doubt that, as a Scotsman, the noble Lord the Leader of the House has used the old toast, “Here’s tae us. Wha’s like us? Damn few, and they’re a’ deid”. That means that anyone who suggests that after independence Scotland will not be a land of milk and honey will be rubbished. It is not enough to say that a body of work will be undertaken. There will be a requirement for rebuttal and I ask the Minister to look hard at establishing a panel of neutral experts who will be available for that process of rebuttal.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I slightly object to the accusation of naiveté. Many of us warned the Labour Party many years ago that this is exactly what would happen, and it was senior members of the Labour Party who continually told us that this was the thing that would stop the nationalists in their tracks. However, the years go by and now here we are, all working together to try to stop this process. I do not think there is any naiveté anywhere in this Government about the role that the First Minister of Scotland takes or the verbal gymnastics and occasional distortions that take place. The Government are utterly committed to providing evidence-based information to the people of Scotland so that they can very clearly see what the impact of breaking up the United Kingdom would be and what the separatist cause would lead us to.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
My Lords, will the Leader of the House accept that, while some tactical advantages may have been gained by the Scottish Administration during the formation of this agreement, these are outweighed by the fact that there will be one single question? Will he also accept that the large increase of powers for the Scottish Parliament in the Scotland Act have been consistently underestimated and that further issues relating to devolution should be set aside until the result of the referendum is made entirely clear?
Lord Strathclyde
Yes, my Lords, I agree with my noble friend that there is no need to discuss any further devolution settlement until the referendum has taken place and that there is also a pipeline of provisions in the Scotland Act. I am not sure that the nationalists have received a tactical advantage, but it is now right that the decision should be brought to the Scottish people.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, there is a paragraph in the agreement which says that,
“the referendum should meet the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety”.
I have one simple little question. If, after we pass the Section 30 order, the UK Government think that the proposals do not meet the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety, what recourse do they have?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I have tried to explain that the Scottish people—who, as the noble Lord knows well, are a fair-minded and educated people—will see through anything that is not fair-minded and responsible. The time has come to trust the people of Scotland. As my noble friend Lord Steel pointed out a few minutes ago, it is true that as this debate has raged in the past couple of years the opinion polls have swung in favour of maintaining the United Kingdom.
House of Lords: Reform
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the Government have decided not to proceed with the House of Lords Reform Bill, and it has been withdrawn.
Lord Wakeham
I thank my noble friend the Leader of the House for his reply. Might I assume from his Answer that the Government have no plans for further reform of your Lordships’ House in this present Parliament?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the hard work of many Members of this House and the other place to shape this Bill has of course inched us forward in this great debate, but Lords reform is now a matter for future Parliaments. I can confirm that the coalition will not be able to deliver Lords reform during this Parliament, which in a way seems extraordinary, given that more than 70% of the House of Commons voted in favour of the Bill at Second Reading.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, for tabling this PNQ but regret the fact that the Leader of the House did not make a full and proper Statement. For the Government to tell this House formally by means of a reply to a Private Notice Question that they have abandoned their legislation on further House of Lords reform is woefully inadequate. If the Lords had been sitting on 3 September, at the same time as the Commons, the Leader would have repeated the Statement.
I welcome the fact that the coalition has finally come to its senses and abandoned what was a bad Bill. I must say that for the Leader, in his piece in today’s House Magazine, to lambast Labour for the Bill’s failure is a bit rich. My party wants reform, but the right reform. Would the Leader agree that it is regrettable that the Deputy Prime Minister appears, in a fit of pique, to have ruled out any reforms to your Lordships’ House before the next election, including the Steel Bill?
Now that the Bill has gone the Government have time on their hands, so what are we going to do? Will the Leader therefore agree to an urgent meeting of the usual channels to examine the Government’s legislative programme strategically, and come up with proposals on planning and handling that will find favour with the whole House and ensure that we could respect the firm convention that this House will normally rise on legislating days by about 10 pm?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I think that is a question for which the word “opportunistic” was originally coined. Lords reform was, of course, based almost entirely on Jack Straw’s White Paper from 2008, when the noble Baroness stood at this Dispatch Box. No doubt historians will wish to examine exactly why the Bill fell in another place. My own view is that while the House of Commons was keen on the idea of an elected House, when Members found out what it might mean for them they became less keen. Furthermore, it required a consensus right across the parties in another place and in this House. The Labour Party was not willing to form part of that consensus in a programme Motion, demanding a referendum, the removal of the Cross Benches and the entrenchment of powers. I therefore make no apology for saying that the Labour Party was at least in part to blame for there being no further action on Lords reform.
As to the further legislative programme, Bills will be introduced. However, while there is time currently available in the House for Commons for more legislation, of course we were not expecting the House of Lords Reform Bill until the new year. We expected to be in Committee at least, and perhaps for the Session to continue well into the summer. We will now be able to finish the Session in a normal time. However, I very much welcome any discussions that the noble Baroness would like to have.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, would my noble friend accept that there are many people in this House who are delighted that the Government came to their senses on this issue? Would he assure the House that he has not ruled out the housekeeping measures which are in the Steel Bill? Will he consult with the noble Lord, Lord Steel, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and others on what sensible, modest housekeeping measures can be brought forward to make this House even more effective than it is at the moment? Will he also use his very considerable influence within his own party to ensure that, at the next general election, the Conservative Party does not fight on a manifesto that has any reference at all to an elected second Chamber?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that may or may not be asking too much. Of course I am aware that this House will be very pleased with the news. Ever since the election, in every debate that we have had there has been an overwhelming majority against the proposals in the Bill. As far as the Steel Bill is concerned, this House has passed a Private Member’s Bill in the name of my noble friend Lord Steel. It now languishes in the House of Commons at the back of the Private Member’s Bill queue. It remains to be seen whether a Member of the House of Commons regards it as a priority and decides to pick it up. However, I will just point out that more than over 70% of the House of Commons voted in favour of an elected House. It may be a little difficult to believe that the House of Commons will now move to entrenching an appointed House so soon.
Baroness Hayman
My Lords, I am grateful to the House, and I am sure that the whole House will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, for ensuring that we at least have 10 minutes to discuss this issue. Will the noble Lord the Leader of the House accept that reform and election are not synonymous? Will he also accept that two areas of consensus did emerge from the debate on the Government’s Bill? First, the Bill for elections to this House was not deliverable. Secondly, there was an urgent need to make changes in the House. I must say to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, that I have never seen myself as a modest housekeeper and am more interested in some substantive reforms that are urgent for this House. Despite the pique felt over the withdrawal of the Bill, those remain urgent priorities on which there is widespread agreement. Will the noble Lord accept that and help make some progress on it?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there may well be widespread agreement in this House, but I have seen no indication that there is widespread agreement in another place. That agreement is absolutely necessary before a Bill can be passed. I urge the noble Baroness, with all her influence, and those who agree with her to discuss things further with Members of the House of Commons.
Lord Rennard
My Lords, does my noble friend the Leader of the House agree that whatever may or may not happen in the near future in relation to reform of your Lordships’ House, there is now absolutely no case whatever for continuing the farcical practice of holding by-elections to replace hereditary Peers when one of their number passes away?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the by-elections were never supposed to occur because the Labour Party in 2001 promised that it would come forward with proper, elected reform that did not in the event take place. The existence of the by-elections may still be a spur for further reform.
Lord Campbell-Savours
With two-thirds of the House of Commons voting in favour of an elected House, why will the Government not table a Motion for a referendum to be held at the time of the next general election, in the knowledge that when that comes to a vote in the House of Commons the Labour Benches would be required to support it because it is in our election manifesto; and Liberal Democrat MPs, along with Conservative supporters of an elected House, would also feel obliged to? The country would then decide and would lock in Parliament to a yes or no decision.
Lord Strathclyde
The Deputy Prime Minister looked at many options, including having discussions with the leader of the Labour Party. However, it was decided that moving forward would not be fruitful.
Lord Elton
My Lords, will my noble friend exercise his good offices with the Prime Minister and the commission and ask them to exercise great restraint in the appointment of new Peers until some method is devised to make room for them?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there is a Question on tomorrow’s Order Paper that will deal with that.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
Does the Minister accept that it will be the verdict of history that the proposed reform failed because it was fundamentally and fatally flawed? It created a situation whereby mutual strangulation would have been the order of the day between the two Houses. Will he give an undertaking to the House that any future consideration, which of course must encompass the primacy of the House of Commons, should be on the basis of a written constitution?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it will certainly be for historians to take a view on what happened, not only during the past two and a half years but over the past 15 years over which the debate has raged. However, as I said, more than two-thirds of the House of Commons voted in favour of an elected second Chamber. I do not think that the Bill was fatally flawed, but I do think that there will be no further progress until the House of Commons understands the full implications of an elected House being more independent, stronger and able to hold it and the Government to account.
Procedure of the House
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
I apologise for intervening on this issue, but I wish to say something. I address my remarks to the noble Lord the Leader of the House rather than to the Lord Chairman. In view of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Green, is going to be on television this evening and that he has written a letter to Mr Chris Leslie in the House of Commons, I thought it pertinent to raise this matter on the Floor of the House.
As a matter of procedure, the noble Lord the Leader of the House yesterday told your Lordships’ House in relation to the noble Lord, Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint:
“No Minister needs to be accountable to Parliament for their previous career”.—[Official Report, 23/7/2012; col. 482.]
However, in a letter to my honourable friend the shadow Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the noble Lord, Lord Green, does precisely that in giving, as a government Minister in an official letter from a government department, his views on HSBC and what he described as the “failures” of the bank, about which he says, “I share that regret”. If the noble Lord, Lord Green, can make that kind of point in a government letter—let alone what he might say in an interview on Sky television at 7 pm this evening—he should come to this House and make those points here. I therefore invite the Leader of the House, in the light of the actions today of the noble Lord, Lord Green, to make arrangements for the noble Lord, as a Minister and a Member of this House, to take the opportunity to come to this House tomorrow to dispel the questions that are being posed about his ministerial role.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I think that it is worth replying to this. The noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition was kind enough to give me notice that she would raise this issue. There are two accusations against my noble friend Lord Green. The first is that he has written to Mr Chris Leslie, who is a Member of the House of Commons. The only reason why my noble friend Lord Green has written to Mr Leslie is because Mr Leslie wrote to him and he has simply replied. That strikes me as being entirely the right and correct thing to do.
The second accusation is that my noble friend has not come to this House to answer questions. The reason why my noble friend has not come to this House to answer questions is because none has been put to him on this subject.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, made much of the table of attendance and referred to my noble friend Lady Anelay. However, she happens to be the government Chief Whip, and if she was not here practically every day, I would want to know why. Incidentally, I also want to know why the Minister for Trade should spend all his time in here when his job is to do his best, banging the drum for British business—as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, used to remind us—rather than coming here. How many questions has the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, put down in the past 12 months to my noble friend Lord Green on matters of trade? I shall check the record later.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
If the noble Lord the Leader of the House would care to check, he will find that the noble Lord, Lord Jones, attended here regularly. He answered question after question. Not only did he do so, but so did the Secretary of State, the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, who also attended regularly. The noble Lord, Lord Green, is the senior Minister from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in this House, but who has to stand in? The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, who comes very high in the table, gallantly stands in regularly to answer these questions; and if she is not able to do it, the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, stands in. However, we never see the noble Lord, Lord Green. I do not think that the noble Lord the Leader of the House understands that he is the Leader of the House, not of the Conservative Party. He is responsible for the whole House. It is a grave discourtesy for a Minister never to appear to turn up. He is not just responsible for trade and investment; he is the main Minister in that department, and he should be here answering questions.
Lord Strathclyde
I will not continue this for very much longer. All I can say is that if the noble Lord wants to put down questions on trade and investment, my noble friend Lord Green will be here to answer them.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, while the noble Lord is here and answering questions, I hope he does not mind my saying this, but I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Green, should have made from BIS the Statement on loan guarantees. For some reason, he was not here, although I gather he was in the House. Could the noble Lord inquire into why that happened? I would rather that the noble Lord, Lord Green, had answered, given that he was the Minister concerned.
Lord King of Bridgwater
Can we get a better understanding of this issue? My own memory goes back to two excellent Ministers of Trade: Cecil Parkinson, who is now a Member of this House, and Richard Needham—both of whom will be familiar to many Members of this House. I was rude to them if I ever saw them, because their job was not to be here. At a time when we needed trade and exports, they needed to be out and about promoting British business. The other House respected the fact that they had to lead delegations and had greater impact outside. The more they did, the better they did it. They were very effective Ministers of Trade at a rather successful time for the British economy. If ever we needed a Minister of Trade to be active overseas, it is now. I thought this House would appreciate that.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend puts it extremely well. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, a Written Ministerial Statement on the loan guarantee scheme was made by my noble friend Lord Sassoon because it was a Treasury matter. The noble Lord was able to ask him a Question a few minutes ago.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)
My Lords, it seems so long ago, but if I remember correctly the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, began by commending the report. I thank him for those very few words on the report. He raised issues that have been dealt with by the Leader of the House. The only thing I should say is that if anyone wishes to take these matters further in light of the Procedure Committee, they can always write. I do not think that any points, let alone points of substance, have been raised on the content of the report, which makes a number of important advances in how we enable people with disabilities to contribute fully to the business of this House. I commend the report to the House.
HSBC: Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government have every confidence in my noble friend Lord Green ability to fulfil his ministerial duties. His experience, expertise and enthusiasm provide great benefit to the UK’s international profile and to the support that UK Trade and Investment provides to British businesses.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I am grateful to the Leader of the House for that Answer. However, as the noble Lord will be aware, questions have been asked about the present ministerial role of the noble Lord, Lord Green, following the US Senate committee’s findings.
Paragraph 1.2 of the Ministerial Code, which sets out the responsibility of Ministers to Parliament, says that:
“Ministers should be as open as possible with Parliament and the public, refusing to provide information only when disclosure would not be in the public interest”.
Given that obligation, will the Leader of the House ask the noble Lord, Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, to come to your Lordships’ House to place on record what he knew and when about the matters investigated by the US Senate committee, including what steps he took to deal with them? Would such a move not give the noble Lord, Lord Green, the opportunity to dispel once and for all the questions being asked about his present ministerial role?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I congratulate the Leader of the Opposition. I know that she has been trying to find a PNQ to put to the House and she has managed to do so. I am very glad to be able to respond on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government.
There is no urgency in this matter. The investigation started more than two years ago. The report in question was published two weeks ago. There was no evidence of personal wrongdoing of my noble friend; indeed, there was no personal criticism whatever of my noble friend. The investigation is ongoing. As for ministerial accountability, my noble friend Lord Green is accountable to this House—to Parliament—for the work he does as a Minister. However, many Ministers have had previous careers. No Minister needs to be accountable to Parliament for their previous career, only for what they are doing as a Minister.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, I declare an interest as a non-executive director of HSBC during the time when the noble Lord, Lord Green, was chief executive officer and chairman. Is the Leader aware that when I was advising the Prime Minister on calls for ministerial resignations, I drew a distinction—which I think is widely accepted—between accountability and responsibility? While it may be the case that the chairman and chief executive officer of a major international company is accountable for everything that happens in that company, there is no possible way in which they can be responsible for everything that happens in a worldwide group of the size of HSBC.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, with all his experience and knowledge—not just as head of the Civil Service and Cabinet Secretary but having had a more commercial career since he left—the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, has brought a lot of wisdom and good sense to this debate, on which we should all reflect.
Lord Kinnock
My Lords, since the Leader of the House has told us that the work of the noble Lord, Lord Green, is of benefit to the United Kingdom’s profile—the words he just used—does he think that the accountability of an individual in a very senior position in government or business ceases when that individual changes post? Does he not think that it would benefit the UK’s profile to ensure that a Minister rigorously adheres to the wording of the Ministerial Code, as just spelt out by my noble friend? Further, does he not think that the ethics of business require that a Minister who has the opportunity and the right to come to this House to explain themselves should do so?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not disagree at all with what the noble Lord says about the ethics of the industry in which my noble friend was involved. In fact, only last week, this House set up a special Joint Select Committee to look at ethics and many other practices in the banking industry. Surely that is the point. If a Select Committee of this House or another place wishes to ask my noble friend questions, it should do so. My purpose is to reflect on my noble friend’s role in government and to answer on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that anyone who knows the noble Lord, Lord Green, could not doubt his total integrity for a moment?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I agree with that but I wholly accept that questions need to be asked—and are habitually asked—of a Minister to make sure that he is accountable to Parliament. As I said in my reply to the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, if a committee of Parliament wishes to put questions to my noble friend, it is entirely free to do so.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, perhaps I can remind the Leader of the House of a report with which he will be, no doubt, almost word perfect: the report of the Leader’s Group on Working Practices, which made a number of recommendations. Of course, the group was established by the Leader for the Leader. Recommendation 3 of that report—which, I remind him again, was published more than a year ago in April last year—said:
“We … recommend that there should be a monthly question time dedicated to questions on House of Lords matters addressed to the Leader of the House”.
Perhaps I may helpfully suggest that both today’s Question and indeed the very important one raised last week by my noble friend Lord Barnett could be handled were the Leader to accept that simple, unanimous recommendation by a committee that was set up at his instigation. I urge him to act on that recommendation as soon as possible.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, from memory, I do not think that there has been a single Question put to me in my capacity as Leader of the House in the past 12 months. That rather leads me to believe that there is no great demand for a monthly Question Time session for the Leader. There are perfectly good methods for asking me questions and noble Lords should use them if they wish to.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, from a rather different view, perhaps, I query what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Butler. Surely accountability and responsibility cannot simply be divided one from the other—it is not as sharp as that. Accountability and responsibility go hand in hand and no one should doubt it.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Cormack said that no one should challenge the integrity of my noble friend Lord Green, and I agree with him. But if it comes to a choice between the noble Lord’s view of what is responsibility and accountability and that of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, I will go with the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, I personally—along with most of the House, I feel—am in no position and would not wish to challenge the integrity of the noble Lord, Lord Green. However, does the Leader of the House agree that perhaps there would be less question about his conduct over the issue of HSBC were the House to see him more often answering questions that relate to his ministerial responsibilities? It may have something to do with his relative unfamiliarity to Members of the House that they are perhaps more sceptical than they should be.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, as a Minister for trade, my noble friend of course spends a great deal of time overseas. Since he was appointed, he has travelled to 42 countries and visited 73 cities. In his role as Minister of State for Trade and Investment, he has answered a total of 72 Parliamentary Questions, including two Oral Questions out of three that he could have answered. The response to the point raised by the noble Baroness is that if more Questions on trade and investment were put down, I am sure that my noble friend would be very happy to come and answer them.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his answers, but perhaps I may say that I found his initial response to my Question slightly patronising, albeit not in terms of the substance. I table PNQs when I believe that there is a matter of accountability which is of interest to this Parliament as a whole—we are the only House of Parliament sitting at the moment—and when I believe that it is of importance to this nation. I do not do so for personal gratification.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, if the noble Baroness felt that I was in any way seeking to patronise her, I apologise fully.
Business
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Lord Barnett
While the Leader of the House is here, I feel that I should bring to the attention of the House a very serious matter that has arisen. At Question Time yesterday, I asked a question of the Treasury. The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, who is normally very honourable, told me that he could not reply to my question and would do so in writing. We did not know at the time that a Written Ministerial Statement was being made by the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. The Leader of the Opposition asked a few days ago that, while this House is sitting as part of this Parliament, any major Statement—this was a serious Statement on infrastructure and loan guarantee schemes—be taken here. It was taken as a Written Ministerial Statement while I was asking an oral question. It really is quite outrageous and I hope that the Leader of the House will be able to assure us that it will not happen again.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, has been a Member of this House for a very long time indeed. The noble Lord knows that it does not have points of order and that if he needs to raise a question, it has to be on a relevant Motion. It is a gross discourtesy to the Lord Speaker for the noble Lord not to have put down a PNQ if he felt it was appropriate. It is also a discourtesy to the House for him to break the rules in this way. If the noble Lord does not know what the rules are, then I urge him to take advice from the Clerk of the Parliaments, who no doubt will provide an induction course for him.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, I have indeed been a Member of this House for nearly 30 years and have never, I hope, done anything discourteous in any way. I was putting an oral question on the specific issue and at the same time a Minister was putting down a Written Ministerial Statement. This was on something rather important, to say the least, because the Prime Minister—and even his deputy was with him—was making this major statement about loan guarantees. The Leader of the Opposition asked specifically that those kinds of statements should be made here; she never said written ones. What is wrong with my asking now that it should not happen again?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, what is wrong is that the noble Lord is breaking the rules of the House by not raising it at a relevant time on a Motion that is on the Order Paper.
Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards
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Lord Strathclyde
1. That the Commons message of 16 July be considered and that a Committee of five Lords be appointed to join with the Committee appointed by the Commons as the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, to consider and report on:
(a) professional standards and culture of the UK banking sector, taking account of regulatory and competition investigations into the LIBOR rate-setting process;
(b) lessons to be learned about corporate governance, transparency and conflicts of interest, and their implications for regulation and for Government policy;
and to make recommendations for legislative and other action;
2. That, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 63(2), the following members be appointed to the Committee:
The Lord Bishop of Durham, Baroness Kramer, Lord Lawson of Blaby, Lord McFall of Alcluith, Lord Turnbull;
3. That the Chairman of the Commission be appointed by the House of Commons;
4. That the Commission shall, except as provided for in this order, follow the procedure of a select committee of the House of Commons;
5. That the Commission have power:
(a) to send for persons, papers and records;
(b) to examine witnesses on oath;
(c) to appoint specialist advisers;
(d) to invite specialist advisers (including Counsel appointed as specialist advisers) to examine witnesses;
(e) to adjourn from place to place;
6. That the Commission have leave to report from time to time and that the Reports of the Commission shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House;
7. That the evidence taken by the Commission shall, if the Commission so wishes, be published;
8. That the Committee appointed by the House of Lords have power to report to the House any decision of the Commission reached pursuant to paragraph 9 of the Commons resolution of 16 July;
9. That the Commission shall have power to appoint sub-committees to consider matters specified by the Commission within the terms of this order and a sub-committee shall have:
(a) the powers in paragraph 5(a), (b) and (e); and
(b) the power to invite specialist advisers appointed by the Commission (including Counsel appointed as specialist advisers) to examine witnesses;
10. That the quorum of the Commission shall be two members of each House;
11. That the quorum of any sub-committee shall be one member from either House; and
12. That the Commission shall report on legislative action no later than 18 December 2012 and on other matters as soon as possible thereafter.
Arrangement of Business
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, the House of Commons rises today, as we all know, and noble Lords may recall that, during the Jubilee Recess when this House sat, the Government announced changes to tax policy to the media rather than to Parliament—that is to say, to our House. I would be grateful if the Leader of the House could reassure noble Lords that when the House of Commons has gone into recess any policy announcements will be made to this House, while it is sitting, as we are a House of Parliament, rather than to the media first. We shall be vigilant with regard to any sneaky Statements that might come out.
I also take this opportunity to wish a very happy birthday to the Chief Whip, the noble friend of the Leader of the House.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will join in those very happy returns to the Captain of the Honourable Corps of the Gentlemen at Arms.
There is no desire on the Government’s part to produce any sneaky Statements at all when the House of Commons is not sitting. Of course, this House will be sitting next week and any Statements, Urgent Questions or PNQs will be taken in the normal way.
Lord Grocott
Will the Leader of the House undertake to inform the House of the additional cost that will undoubtedly be incurred as a result of this House sitting as though it were a unicameral system for a week now, then the Commons sitting for a fortnight as though it were a unicameral system in September, and then this House sitting again a couple of weeks after that? It undoubtedly means that we will be functioning less efficiently with all sorts of committees, which affect Members of both Houses, being unable to operate as they would when Parliament functions in the normal way. However, I refer specifically to the costs of the Houses sitting in a way that the Government now seem bent on, which I do not think is for the convenience of the House or of the public.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that is most bizarre. The House has sat on different days from the House of Commons for decades, as far as I can remember. If there are any additional costs, I shall let the noble Lord know. I do not think that there will be; we are not sitting, overall, for more days than otherwise we would have been.
Business of the House
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Lord Strathclyde
That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Monday 16 July to allow the Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill and the Finance Bill to be taken through all their remaining stages that day.
Business of the House
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debates on the Motions in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and the noble Baroness, Lady Rendell of Babergh, set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.