Libya

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, it may be convenient to now repeat a Statement made in another place by the Prime Minister on the situation in Libya. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on Libya.

When we met here on that Friday in March, Gaddafi's tanks bore down on Benghazi. His air force had already begun strikes against his people there, and his army had smashed through Zawiyah with grave loss of life.

Gaddafi had vowed to hunt down his own people like rats, using the full might of his armed forces, backed up by mercenaries. I did not think that Britain could stand by as Gaddafi slaughtered his people. Nor could we allow a failed pariah state festering on Europe's southern border, with the potential to threaten our own security.

The Libyan Opposition and the Arab League both called for NATO to protect the civilian population, so together with the US and France, we secured agreement for UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973. With this clear legal mandate, this House voted by a majority of 544 in favour of military action. Today the Libyan people have taken their country back.

I am grateful for the support that all sides of this House have given throughout the past six months and I am sure that the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the incredible dedication and professionalism of our pilots, sailors and ground crew and everyone in our Armed Forces involved in this mission. But we should also pay tribute to the bravery and resilience of the Libyan people themselves. This has been their revolution and none of it would have happened without them.

Ordinary Libyans from all walks of life came together and rose up against Gaddafi, from the villages of the Nafusa mountains to the tower blocks of Misurata, the alleyways of Zawiyah and the streets of Benghazi, the Libyan people fought with incredible courage. Many paid with their lives. Others have been seriously injured and the struggle is not over. They still face forces loyal to a dictator who last week threatened to turn Libya “into a hell”.

The long work of building a new Libya is just beginning. But what is clear is that the future of Libya belongs to its people. The task of the international community now is to support them as they build that future. That means helping to finish the job, ensuring security, addressing the immediate humanitarian needs and supporting the longer-term process of reconstruction and political transition.

Let me address each in turn. First, finishing the job. Britain has been at the forefront of the military operation to protect the Libyan people. Our aircraft have made 2,400 sorties across Libya carrying out one fifth of all NATO airstrikes, against some 900 targets in Gaddafi's war machine. Our warships have supported this effort, helping enforce the UN arms embargo, and bringing aid to those in need.

At its peak, some 2,300 British service men and women were deployed on Operation ELLAMY, with 36 aircraft including 16 Tornados, six Typhoons, five attack helicopters, tankers and specialist surveillance aircraft and helicopters. Those were supported over the course of the operation by eight warships and a hunter-killer submarine. But the job is not over. As we stand, the Free Libya Forces have liberated Tripoli and control Libya's key population centres, but pro-Gaddafi forces still pose a threat and in particular control the towns of Bani Walid, Sirte, and Sebha in the south.

The National Transitional Council has been working to negotiate a peaceful outcome, but its leaders have explicitly requested that NATO continues its operations to protect civilians until that is achieved. Over the weekend, RAF Tornados struck eight military command and control installations south-west of Waddan and nine weapons and ammunition stores near Sirte.

For as long as Gaddafi remains at large, the safety and security of the Libyan people remains under threat. So let me be clear. We will not let up until the job is done. First, Britain and its NATO allies will continue to implement UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973 for as long as we are needed to protect civilian life. Those thinking that NATO will somehow pull out or pull back must think again. We are ready to extend the NATO mandate for as long as is necessary.

Secondly, we will support the Libyan people in bringing Gaddafi to justice. This is a man whose crimes are becoming ever more apparent every day and who is wanted by the International Criminal Court. There must be no bolt-hole; no pampered hiding place from justice. He must face the consequences of his actions, under international and Libyan law.

Turning to security, the early signs have been encouraging. There has been some disorder, but it has been focused on symbols of the former regime. The National Transitional Council is moving to stand down fighters from outside Tripoli. The police are returning to the streets, and the council leaders have been clear and consistent in cautioning against disorder and against reprisals.

Britain and its international partners are helping too, working closely with the National Transitional Council in securing chemical weapons sites and supporting mine clearance in Misurata, Benghazi and other affected areas.

On the humanitarian situation, Britain has played a leading role from the outset. The priorities are health, water, food and fuel. On health, our humanitarian partners report that hospitals and clinics in Tripoli are now functioning well, with staff returning to work. Britain is providing additional support through the ICRC, including surgical teams and medicines to treat up to 5,000 war-wounded patients.

On water, substantial numbers of people in Tripoli are still without running water. However, UNICEF is procuring 11 million litres of bottled water, and the Libyan authorities are working to repair the water systems. The NTC reports that 100 wells are back online representing 20 per cent of capacity and there is already evidence of improved supplies.

Finally, on fuel, there remain significant shortages, but the situation is improving and the World Food Programme shipment is supporting the National Transitional Council with the procurement of 250,000 tonnes of fuel. The National Transitional Council will continue to lead the response to the humanitarian situation, working with the UN Humanitarian Coordinator and other humanitarian agencies.

Libya is a country of 6.5 million people. It is one of the richest in Africa. Its proven oil reserves are the ninth largest in the world. Libya is fully capable of paying for its own reconstruction. Of course there is a role for foreign advice, help and support but we do not want to see an army of foreign consultants driving around in 4x4s, giving the impression this is something being done to the Libyans, rather than done by them.

What the Libyans need above all is their frozen assets back. A week ago Britain got Security Council agreement to release £1 billion-worth of dinars back to the Central Bank of Libya, and RAF planes have already flown in hundreds of millions of dinars of Libyan banknotes. At the summit in Paris last Thursday, the international community committed to unfreezing $15 billion-worth of Libyan assets. For their part, vitally, we expect the new Libyan authorities to meet their pledge of ensuring transparent and accountable financial systems.

Next, I shall turn to political transition. Some people warned, as Gaddafi himself did, that the Libyan people could not be trusted with freedom—that without Gaddafi there would be chaos. What is emerging now, despite years of repression and the trauma of recent months, is immensely impressive and encouraging. In a far-reaching road map and constitutional declaration, the new authorities have set out a clear vision and process for a new democratic Libya.

This is not being imposed from above; it is being shaped by the Libyan people. At the Paris summit, Chairman Abdul Jalil spoke of his determination to build a society of tolerance and forgiveness, with respect for the rule of law. A national conference will bring together all the tribes, civil society, men and women, from east and west, united to shape the political transition. They are planning for a new constitution and elections within 20 months.

Britain is also in discussions in New York about a new UN Security Council resolution to reflect the new situation. The new Libyan authorities must now be able to represent their country at the United Nations, as they did last week at the Arab League. I also look forward to building a bilateral relationship with the new Libyan authority. We have close relations with the National Transitional Council through our mission in Benghazi. Today the UK’s special representative is deploying to Tripoli to re-establish our full diplomatic presence in that city.

Our relationship with the new Libya must of course deal with a series of problems from the past. On Megrahi, this is obviously a matter for the Scottish Executive, but I have made my position clear: I believe he should never have been sent back to Libya in the first place. On WPC Yvonne Fletcher, I want to see justice for her family. There is an ongoing police investigation, and the House will wish to know that Prime Minister Jibril has assured me of the new Libyan authority’s intention to co-operate fully.

Finally, significant accusations have been reported today that under the last Government relations between the British and Libyan security services became too close, particularly in 2003. It was because of accusations of potential complicity by the British security services in the mistreatment of detainees overseas, including rendition, that I took steps last July to sort this whole problem out. As the House will remember, we took steps to bring to an end the large number of court cases being brought against the Government by former inmates of Guantanamo. We have issued new guidance to security and intelligence service personnel on how to deal with detainees held by other countries.

We have also asked Sir Peter Gibson to examine issues around the detention and treatment of terrorist suspects overseas, and the inquiry has already said it will look at these latest accusations very carefully. My concern throughout has been not only to remove any stain on Britain’s reputation but also to deal with these accusations of malpractice so as to enable the security services to get on with the vital work they do. Because they cannot speak for themselves, let me put on record once again our enormous gratitude for all they do to keep our country safe.

The achievement of the Libyan people gives hope to those across the wider region who want a job, a voice and a stake in how their society is run. On Syria, Britain will continue to lead the argument for a UN resolution to build on the EU’s oil embargo which is now in place. The message to President Assad must be clear: he has lost all legitimacy and can no longer claim to lead Syria; the violence must end, and he must step aside for the good of his country.

It is the Libyan people who have liberated Libya. There was no foreign occupying army. This has been a Libyan-led process, assisted by the international community. Many cynics proclaimed stalemate and asserted that Gaddafi would never be defeated. The Libyan people proved them wrong. It was a unique set of circumstances and not something that we can or wish to repeat all over the world, but I have never accepted the argument that because you cannot do everything, you should not do anything.

Removing Gaddafi from power was a major achievement. Although the work is not yet done, the Libyan people can be proud of what they have achieved and we can be proud of what we have done to help them. I commend this Statement to the House”.

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[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition for an immensely supportive, positive and constructive reply to the Prime Minister’s Statement. I very much agree with what she said at the end of her speech. We should take great pride in the role that we and NATO have played, and that, of course, of the Libyan people themselves who have taken on this appalling dictator and are—if I can put it in such terms—winning, but who are also aware of the tremendous challenges that will unfold in the months and years ahead.

I also very much welcome the noble Baroness’s tribute to the people of Libya and commendation of the Prime Minister. I very much welcome her support. She asked a question about the Gibson inquiry. I think she said that the Gibson inquiry should try to get to the bottom of the accusations that have been made. I entirely agree, which is why I am delighted that the inquiry has said that it will look at these allegations as part of its wider investigation. We must await the outcome of that. The current security situation is fast moving and ever changing but obviously there are still hotspots in Libya that we hope will be dealt with in the days ahead.

As regards NATO, the NATO Secretary-General and the Prime Minister have both made clear that there will be no cessation of military operations until we can be assured that our responsibilities under UNSCR 1973 have been fulfilled. The British Armed Forces will continue to make a significant contribution to that mission. There have been discussions with the United Nations special envoy. The UN special envoy, Ian Martin, is in place. We believe that the UN mission should focus very much on what the Libyans want and not on what we think they want or should have. I gather that that was very clear from listening to them at the Paris conference last week. On oil, of course we should learn the lessons of previous conflicts, as we will undoubtedly and inevitably do from this conflict.

How will the NTC achieve the goals it has set out as it moves towards a more democratic government? We and many others will be with it every step of the way. There are already close contacts between the British Government and the NTC but there is no point in trying to second-guess the process. We have learnt in recent months throughout this process that the NTC always rises to the challenge. It is very effective and there is no reason why it should not continue to do so.

The noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition also asked a question about the building up of civil society and democracy, and what plans there are to help Libya with the British Council, the BBC World Service, the Westminster Foundation for Democracy and so on. She is right that we have these tremendous assets, which have good international reputations. However, it is hard to see what role they can play until the security situation is considerably better. But there will be a medium- and a long-term role for these organisations.

The one slightly negative note mentioned by the noble Baroness was that of the SDSR and whether we should review this in the light of Libya and the Arab spring. I do not blame the noble Baroness for raising it at all. We believe that the case for what we are doing in the SDSR has been proved. The Tornado decision was right. The Typhoon has come of age. Of course, as I have said, as in any conflict of this kind, there will be a review, an examination of what happened, a lessons-learnt exercise, which will be led by Sir Peter Ricketts. This will include many aspects of the campaign of the past few months.

I hope that I have covered the ground that the noble Baroness covered. If I have missed anything out I will of course write to her. In conclusion, there is nothing easy in these kinds of conflicts, particularly between political parties. I very much welcome the non-partisan nature of the noble Baroness’s response and the support that has existed across both Houses on what has been an extremely difficult situation for the people of Libya.

[Earl Attlee]

May I remind the House of the benefit of short questions, so that my noble friend the Leader of the House can answer as many noble Lords as possible?

[Lord Gilbert]

I, too, congratulate our forces on the extreme accuracy of the missions in which they are engaged; the extent to which there have been very few casualties reported among civilians in Libya; and the fact that, as far as I can understand the situation, there have been no casualties on our own side, something for which I am sure we are all very grateful. That is a tribute not only to our pilots but to the weapons they have been using.

I am a little uncomfortable with this constant reference to NATO. In point of fact, it has been certain members of NATO that have been doing what needed to be done in the past few weeks. One or two members of NATO simply have not shown up, and we all know who they are. Can I get an assurance from the Government that they will inquire of the German Government about the actual meaning of certain remarks made by Mr Westerwelle in the very recent past? Do those remarks represent the considered opinion of the German Government? Can we get from the German Government a clear indication of how they will view future NATO activities? I hope that it will not be on the lines according to which they have failed to show up in the past few weeks. Finally, can we have an assurance that even though the UN resolution sets a date for the end of NATO activities, which I believe is some time later this month, that date will not be regarded as a limiting factor?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, in reflecting on how relatively few casualties there have been in Libya, although no doubt we will discover more about that over the course of the next few weeks. But it is a remarkable thing that there have been no British casualties at all, and the pilots and others who have played such an immensely important part should be commended.

The noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, could not resist having a little dig at our NATO partners. I can tell him that the Germans were of course at the Paris conference, where they played their full part. They are full members of NATO and they will no doubt on other occasions wish to play a different part. As a former Minister in the Ministry of Defence, the noble Lord will have his own views on what different members of NATO do and how they involve themselves. Of course, as part of a review, there will be discussions with our NATO partners and allies from time to time. We very much hope that we will not need to have an event like this again, but history demonstrates that we probably will, and we will continue to act in unity.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, Britain must be very proud of its humanitarian action that has brought about this political change in Libya, but I have a concern in relation to recent revelations about the relationship between the security services here and in Libya. Is the Leader of the House satisfied that Sir Peter Gibson has adequate powers to conduct this inquiry, given that it is on a non-statutory basis? Would it not be better to look at whether he should be given adequate powers so that witnesses could be summoned both from this country and from abroad to come to a conclusion? Otherwise, people will lack confidence in the inquiry.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we have every confidence in the Gibson inquiry. The scope of the inquiry has been carefully drawn up to keep it manageable and to ensure that it can meet the Prime Minister’s requirement for it to report within a year. The inquiry will look at the policies of the UK intelligence agencies on working with other countries holding detainees, including allegations relating to torture, improper treatment and rendition. I do not think that the Gibson inquiry itself has asked for extra powers, and we feel happy and are confident that it will be able to achieve its task.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House will accept that, on the face of it, it would appear that the main objectives of Resolutions 1970 and 1973 are very near to being achieved in the sense that organised resistance on behalf of Colonel Gaddafi is now limited to a very few specific areas. Nevertheless, as the Leader of the House put it, it may well be technically correct to say that those resolutions will still have a relevance unless and until Gaddafi is killed, is captured or flees the country. That may take a very long time. In order, therefore, that there should be no dubiety as to the status of international organisations in this context, will he give an assurance that Her Majesty’s Government, sooner rather than later, will seek and support a resolution of the Security Council to enable the sinews of life to be provided immediately for the people of Libya and, indeed, so that the physical reconstruction and matters of governance can be put in place as soon as possible?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I think I can put the noble Lord’s mind at rest by saying that the British Government are already discussing within the United Nations resolutions that will do exactly what the noble Lord has suggested. He is also right about UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973. Last week at the Paris conference, we collectively reiterated our commitment to continue to protect civilians in Libya in accordance with those Security Council resolutions, which I think is entirely appropriate.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords—

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[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, the noble Lord has made it clear that there have been very few casualties from NATO’s operations, and that is to be enormously welcomed. Does he accept nevertheless that when it comes to assessing the activities overall, the number of civilians who have died on both sides—whether from rebel forces moving forward or from Gaddafi’s forces trying to defend—must be considerable, and it would be appropriate at some point in time for an estimate to be made of what those figures are?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I would not want the House to think that we were minimising the reporting of the number of casualties on the Libyan side. The wording that both the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, and I have used is that there have been relatively few casualties compared to many other conflicts of this kind. In fact, the UK Government through DfID are now providing urgent humanitarian support into Tripoli, including medical help, food and other basic supplies. A key component of that is to provide surgical teams and medicines for the treatment of up to 5,000 war-wounded patients and to boost local medical staff’s expertise in war surgery techniques.

[Lord Desai]

My Lords, the noble Lord said that the need in Libya was to establish a democracy, and that is quite rightly the challenge. Could he suggest, through the Prime Minister, that the Commonwealth has a lot of experience in a diversity of multi-ethnic and multi-tribal situations? Perhaps the Commonwealth could provide the kind of support that Libya needs right now.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Desai, has come up with a good and sensible suggestion. I understand from my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford that this idea has been raised by others too, and that it is being studied to see what experience we can bring from the Commonwealth in order to help the people and the transitional Government.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, in relation to that last point, there is a very clear emphasis in the Statement that this is now increasingly a matter for the Libyan people to resolve. We must be extremely careful not to suggest that we are going to teach them how to do things, no matter how wise the advice that may come from other quarters. In that respect, if one looks at the unhappy situation now in Iraq, one can see that merely getting rid of a bad dictator is not the end of the problem at all. The challenge that is now faced by the new Libyan Administration, who I think have impressed many of us by their clarity and integrity at the present time, is absolutely enormous. If one considers that one of the core sources of the Arab spring has been the terrible shortage of jobs and unemployment in those territories, the challenge that a new Libyan Government will face—they are facing this in Egypt and in other territories now—is very daunting indeed. Money would at least help. In that connection, what is the situation at the moment with regard to the oil plants and refineries? Having said in the Statement what a rich country Libya potentially is, can the noble Lord say how soon those are likely to be able to come into fruitful use and benefit the Libyan economy?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree very much with what my noble friend said, which is why the support coming from the United Kingdom is support and not a lecture on how to do things. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Desai, was saying in his question, “Here is a model—take it”; it is very much a matter of co-operation and advice when the Libyan people need it. But it is their show and my noble friend was right to raise that.

We of course welcome the plan for the formation of an inclusive interim Government. We have noted that the NTC’s constitutional declaration provides a clear plan for conducting the political transition in the spirit of unifying the Libyan people and reconciling those who have been on both sides in the current conflict. We have given a commitment to support the Libyan-led transition and the rebuilding process to establish a democratic, independent and united Libya. We will do everything we can to help the Libyan people achieve those goals, but it must come from them.

My noble friend was right also to mention money, because, as I pointed out in the Statement, Libya is a rich country. I gather that the damage to the oilfields, gas pipelines and refineries is relatively small, and there is no reason why the oil and gas should not be flowing in the refineries again very soon.

[Lord Borrie]

My Lords, as the Prime Minister’s Statement referred to the possibility of trials by the international court and within Libya itself, can the Leader of the House give us some optimism that the legal profession in Libya—people appropriate to be judges et cetera—is up to mark? I mention that because Hitler, we would all recall, was in power for only 12 years, yet there was huge difficulty in finding people who were sufficiently objective to take on trials in Germany after the war. Gaddafi has been in power in Libya for some 40 years. As far as I know, in recent years there has been nobody with great experience or of sufficiently independent judicial mind to bring to the fore matters of a judicial nature. Can we be in any degree optimistic on this score?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I understand entirely the point that the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, makes, but I rather echo the words of my noble friend Lord King: it is for the Libyan people to determine their own future. Therefore, what happens to Gaddafi and how they do it is ultimately a question for them. I cannot answer the noble Lord’s question on the legal qualifications of the Libyan judiciary, but that must be a decision for the Libyan people. As far as the International Criminal Court is concerned, we want Saif Gaddafi and Abdullah al-Senussi to face justice, but how and when that happens will also be a decision for Libya.

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that great credit goes to the Libyan people and the Free Libya forces for their bravery and steadfastness. I also join him in paying tribute to the professionalism and dedication of our pilots, sailors and the ground crew. I hope that he will also acknowledge the exceptionally important work done by the courageous members of our Armed Forces who have been serving in Libya and assisting the Free Libya forces, and the staff of our permanent joint headquarters under the command of Air Marshal Sir Stuart Peach.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join my noble friend in commending all those whom he mentioned for their professionalism and for the service that they have provided.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I apologise for not having been in my place at the start of the Statement. I also declare an interest as a former member of an international panel of advisers to the development board of Libya, which was chaired by Dr Jibril, who was one of the first to defect.

A moment or two ago, the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, raised a point about the rule of law. The Law Society was already engaged in talks with the Libyan Government, at their request, about the rule of law and establishing various norms of judicial proceedings. The British Council was also fully engaged on a number of issues, including the development of women. The Welsh universities were engaged with the Libyans—I am talking about those on the side of people such as Dr Jibril who were trying to develop such mechanisms. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy was engaged. John Moores University was engaged on health and the Crown Agents on tackling corruption. The Leader of the House said that re-engagement was not necessarily appropriate yet because of the security situation, but I understand from the Permanent Secretary at the Foreign Office that the Foreign Office is engaging in reconnection on all those issues in which people like me were heavily involved before Colonel Gaddafi lost his head. The concern now is that we should have proper re-engagement on all those levels at which a start was being made on getting to the guts of developing a new society. Are the British Government encouraging that? Will there be re-engagement of the European Union on the association agreement negotiations which were not only under way but going quite well and involved discussions on human rights? There was a lot going on, and there is a lot to pick up again. We were absolutely engaged on those issues. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to reassure us that we will get back in there on those issues.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Baroness brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to her questions. She has demonstrated how much good work has already been done, and there is absolutely no reason why it should not continue, though there is an immediate security problem to overcome.

There is no reason that I can think of why proper re-engagement on all these areas should not continue with the NTC and, ultimately, under a new Government over the course of time. That is very much what the British Government will seek to support.

I cannot comment on the EU but, again, I cannot see a good reason why those agreements should not be made with a new Government when they are established.

[Baroness Morris of Bolton]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Morris of Bolton]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement repeated by my noble friend the Leader of the House and also his replies to the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition and to the noble Baroness, Lady Symons. They are important because the Libyan people feel close to the British at the moment. I chair the Conservative Middle East Council. Our director, Leo Docherty, and my deputy and honourable friend, Adam Holloway MP, have just spent the past five days in Tripoli. They are flying the union jack and Qatari flags at the moment in Martyr Square and asking when the Prime Minister might visit. The Prime Minister undoubtedly made an impact when he visited Tahrir Square after the revolution in Egypt. If he could visit Libya as soon as possible, he would have a very warm welcome from the Libyan people.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I commend the work that my noble friend does in the Middle East Council. I am delighted to hear that some of her colleagues have been in Tripoli in the course of the last five days. The whole House will understand that, for entirely obvious reasons, I could not possibly comment on when or if the Prime Minister is planning a visit to Tripoli. I also agree with my noble friend that the links between the people of Libya and the people of this country are close, should be closer and no doubt will become closer over the course of the next few months and years.

Lord Speaker: Baroness Hayman

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, when the result of the recent election for the office of Lord Speaker was announced, I indicated that there would be an opportunity to pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, our very first Lord Speaker, for the service she has given the House. That opportunity presents itself today.

The familiar sight of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, in the unfamiliar setting of the Woolsack reminds us that this is a significant day for the House; we have witnessed the first succession in what is by the standards of this House a fledgling office. Taking up the office five years ago, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, ushered in a new era. It is a mark of the respect and confidence that the House placed in her personally that over that period the role of Lord Speaker has become an established element of the way in which the House regulates and governs itself. That alone is a remarkable legacy that will secure her place in the history of this House and of Parliament.

Some noble Lords may recall that on the occasion of her inauguration five years ago, the task facing the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, was likened to that faced by Julie Andrews, on the one hand, and the Archbishop of Canterbury on the other. We were warned that she would require the skills of a nanny and a singing nun, and forbearance on a par with that shown by the most reverend Primate, in order to preside over a self-regulating institution such as ours, vested with wide visibility but patchy authority. However, the House could hardly have known that even that rare mix of qualities would prove insufficient, for the term of office of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, was to coincide with a period of difficulty for this House, for Parliament and for British politics.

We have witnessed the removal of the appellate jurisdiction of this House, allegations of paid advocacy that prompted the House to revive its powers of suspension, and a press campaign that exposed serious abuses of the financial support available to Members of both Houses. As Lord Speaker, Chairman of the House Committee, and a member of the Procedure Committee of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, was in the eye of the storm on each occasion. She displayed tremendous energy, resolve and patience in helping to steer the House through these episodes. She leaves behind a more resilient and transparent institution, equipped with a new code of conduct for Members, an independent Commissioner for Standards, and a simpler and more transparent system of financial support for Members.

Although less visible to the majority of your Lordships, we can also take pride in the way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, represented the House as our Speaker. She established herself as an energetic and persuasive ambassador for this Chamber. She was the driving force behind the creation of the House’s outreach programme and she herself led by example, engaging in an extensive programme of parliamentary diplomacy in order to build relationships with other parliaments and second chambers, particularly those in the Commonwealth. Many of us particularly admire the poise and elegance with which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, represented the House on ceremonial and state occasions, most memorably during the recent visits of Pope Benedict and President Obama.

I close by welcoming the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, as our new Lord Speaker. She has been chosen by the whole House and can count on the support and confidence of noble Lords on all sides as she resumes her service to the House in a new capacity. Her predecessor has set an exacting standard for what the House can expect from a Lord Speaker. We remain indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for that legacy and can count ourselves fortunate that she will continue to contribute to our work.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for what he has said about the outgoing Speaker and I know that the whole House will concur with all that he has said. He has rightly emphasised her work in establishing the new post, in carrying out her work both in the Chamber and on the important committees of this House, her work on governance and transparency, and on external engagement. In all those areas, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has carried out her role and responsibilities with energy, conscientiousness and dignity in a way that commanded great respect and affection both here and in the wider world. I understand, however, that occasionally there was amusing confusion with foreign counterparts because the Lord Speaker was clearly neither a Lord nor someone able to speak in her own Chamber.

Perhaps I may touch on three points in particular. The first refers to the considerable difficulty that this House and, indeed, Parliament as a whole have faced over matters of conduct. I believe that this House took the right steps to deal with these matters but in doing so the Lord Speaker had an important but difficult role. She had at once to be apart and above these issues, and, at exactly the same time in terms of her own concerns for the reputation of this House, to be fully involved in helping to resolve them. She struck entirely the right balance in doing so, at once working closely with all parts of the House and its processes, and at the same time maintaining an important detachment from the political parties and other groupings and individuals. I pay tribute to her care and carefulness in doing so.

Secondly, she has been a vital catalyst in helping to improve the way your Lordships’ House does its work. The House now has before it an important set of proposals for reform of its working practices. The fact that it does so can be traced directly and specifically back to initiatives taken by the Lord Speaker. If this House updates, improves and reforms its working practices, as I hope it will, it will be a testament to the outgoing Lord Speaker that it has done so.

The third area which I would mention is young people. The outreach programme which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, or Helene as she always will be and always has been for many of us on all sides of this House, has successfully established has already been mentioned. It has been of real benefit to this House and to Parliament. I also believe that it has been of genuine benefit to thousands of young people and it has been appreciated up and down this country.

This is not a party political occasion. This is an occasion which is informed by politics—it is, after all, what we do—but it is not governed by them. I hope, however, that we might on this side of the House be given a few seconds of indulgence because we are particularly proud and pleased to be able to pay tribute to the first Lord Speaker. She was a trailblazer in this post of great constitutional significance but, of course, she was also a trailblazer in the other place as the youngest MP—one of only 27 women MPs and one of very, very few women in the House who had babies. The Lord Speaker has been scrupulous in her impartiality and punctilious in her application of that and all aspects of her role.

At the same time, we know that she came from our Benches and from a long record of service to our party. We are proud and pleased that she has been such a credit to the whole House and, in doing so, a credit to our party too. We know that in returning to the House she now has to sit on the Cross Benches and we know that she will carry out her role there with the same impartiality and care that she has shown as Lord Speaker. We hope, however, that from time to time—just as with some of her Cross-Bench colleagues—we will be able to persuade her of some of the arguments which we will be making.

We welcome the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, as the new Lord Speaker, especially on this her first day on the Woolsack. She has a hard act to follow. I hope that the new Lord Speaker will see fit to follow the example of her predecessor in writing annually to all Members of your Lordships’ House. Her letters have been models of clarity and information, and I believe that they have been widely welcomed on all sides of the House. Her scrupulousness has been applied to keeping her own thoughts and views out of these letters, but in her final letter, she does say that it has been a privilege and an honour to serve this House. The real position is the reverse. It has been a privilege and an honour for this House to have the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, serve this House as its first Lord Speaker. We thank her for all that she has done.

Business of the House

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Strathclyde]

That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Monday 3 October to allow the Sovereign Grant Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages.

Motion agreed.

Summer Recess: Ministerial Cover

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what arrangements were in place to ensure appropriate ministerial cover during the summer recess.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, every department must have a Minister on duty in the United Kingdom for the entire Recess, including weekends. It is the responsibility of the Secretary of State to ensure that sensible and comprehensive arrangements are put in place.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for his reply, although I must say that I was hoping for a bit more and I am disappointed by that response. Does he not accept that when problems occurred during the Recess the Government were caught flat-footed, off guard and not on top of their game? Is it not time that they apologised for that?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I simply do not recognise the characterisation that the noble Lord has given to the last few weeks of the Recess, particularly given that the House was recalled and that the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister returned from holiday to take full charge of events. As far as I can see, they did a most splendid job.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, since this country is involved in armed conflict, will the coalition Government ensure that consequential decisions and responses to developing threats and initiatives are taken jointly by named members of the Cabinet in that sphere?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am not entirely sure of the point that my noble friend is trying to make, but the Cabinet makes decisions collectively. Of course, individual Ministers make decisions that tie the entire Cabinet and, if there were any difficulty or issue, a Cabinet Minister could no doubt bring it back to the attention of the Prime Minister.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, when the Prime Minister is on one of his many holidays abroad and the Deputy Prime Minister is here is London, who is in charge of the Government?

[Lord Strathclyde]

The Prime Minister is always in charge, of course, but when he is abroad the Deputy Prime Minister, if he is in the United Kingdom, holds all the regular, routine meetings in and around No. 10. When he, too, is on holiday, another senior Minister, usually the Foreign Secretary, chairs all those regular meetings.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, to adapt the novel structure of the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, who was in charge of government economic policy between 2007 and 2010?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend has clearly enjoyed his Recess. No doubt he will be inviting the House to read the former Chancellor of the Exchequer’s book, which has just been published.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, summer months are often torrid times. I seem to recall that, at some point during the recent Recess, we were told by senior figures in the Government not to worry because everybody had BlackBerrys or iPhones. BlackBerrys and iPhones are great pieces of kit, but does the noble Lord agree that in difficult times the physical presence of senior members of the Government is absolutely necessary to reassure not just parliamentarians but the citizens of this country that the machinery of government is working and properly able to respond?

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords, but I am sure that the whole country was enormously reassured when the Prime Minister returned from holiday, took full control of the unfolding situation and, indeed, recalled Parliament.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, perhaps the Leader of the House will permit me to take a step to one side in my supplementary question. Is it the Government’s policy to encourage European Commissioners that there should always be a European Commissioner on duty in the month of August, or at least someone deputising for him? In my experience some years ago, there was a time in August when there was not a European Commissioner available and it was impossible to get a decision out of Brussels.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I wonder if at that time the European Union was better run with or without a European Commissioner on duty.

Public Disorder

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Thursday 11th August 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I shall now repeat a Statement that was made by the Prime Minister a few minutes ago in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“First, let me thank all Members of the House for returning. When there are important events in our country, it is right that Parliament is recalled and that we show a united front. I am grateful to the leader of the Opposition for the constructive approach that he has taken over the past few days. I have spoken with many of the Members whose constituencies have been affected, and I would like to pay tribute to the Member for Tottenham for his powerful words and unstinting work over recent days.

What we have seen on the streets of London and in other cities across our country is completely unacceptable, and I am sure the whole House will join me in condemning it. Keeping people safe is the first duty of government. The whole country has been shocked by the most appalling scenes of people looting and of violence, vandalising and thieving. It is criminality pure and simple, and there is absolutely no excuse for it. We have seen houses, offices and shops raided and torched, police officers assaulted and fire crews attacked as they try to put out fires, people robbing others while they lie injured and bleeding in the street, and even three innocent people being deliberately run over and killed in Birmingham. We will not put up with this in our country; we will not allow a culture of fear to exist on our streets; and we will do whatever it takes to restore law and order and to rebuild our communities.

First, let us be clear about the sequence of events. A week ago today, a 29 year-old man named Mark Duggan was shot dead by the police in Tottenham. Clearly, there are questions that must be answered, and I can assure the House that this is being investigated thoroughly and independently by the IPCC. We must get to the bottom of exactly what happened—and we will.

Initially there were some peaceful demonstrations following Mark Duggan’s death. Understandably and appropriately, the police were cautious about how they dealt with them. However, this was then used as an excuse by opportunist thugs in gangs, first in Tottenham itself, then across London and then in other cities. It is completely wrong to say there is any justifiable causal link. It is simply preposterous for anyone to suggest that people looting in Tottenham at the weekend, still less three days later in Salford, were in any way doing so because of the death of Mark Duggan. Young people stealing flat-screen televisions and burning shops was not about politics or protest; it was about theft.

In recent days, individual police officers have shown incredible bravery and have worked in some cases around the clock without a break. They deserve our gratitude and our thanks: but what became increasingly clear earlier this week was that there were simply far too few police deployed on to the streets, and that the tactics they were using were not working. Police chiefs have been frank with me about why this happened. Initially, the police treated the situation too much as a public order issue rather than essentially one of crime. The truth is that the police have been facing a new and unique challenge, with different people doing the same thing—basically looting—in different places, but all at the same time. To respond to this situation, we are acting decisively to restore order on our streets, to support the victims of this terrible violence and to look at the deeper problems that have led such a hard core of young people to decide to carry out such appalling criminality. Let me take each in turn.

I will start with restoring order. Following the meetings of COBRA which I chaired on Tuesday, Wednesday and again this morning, we have taken decisive action to help ensure more robust and more effective policing. Because of decisions taken by Acting Commissioner Tim Godwin and other chief officers, there are now more police on the streets, more people arrested and more criminals being prosecuted. The Met Police increased the number of police deployed on the streets of London from 6,000 to almost 16,000 officers, and this number will remain through the weekend. We have also seen large increases in deployments of officers in other affected areas; leave in affected forces has been cancelled; police officers have been bussed in from forces across the country to areas of greatest need; and many businesses have released special constables to help. They, too, have performed magnificently.

More than 1,200 people have now been arrested across the country. We are making technology work for us by capturing the images of the perpetrators on CCTV, so even if they have not yet been arrested, their faces are known and they will not escape the law. As I said yesterday, no phoney human rights concerns about publishing photographs will get in the way of bringing these criminals to justice. Anyone charged with violent disorder and other serious offences should expect to be remanded in custody, not let back on the streets: and anyone convicted should expect to go to jail. Courts in London, Manchester and the West Midlands have been sitting through the night, and will do so for as long as necessary. Magistrates’ courts have proved effective in ensuring swift justice. The Crown Courts are now starting to deal with the most serious cases. We are keeping under constant review whether the courts have the sentencing powers they need and we will act if necessary.

As a result of the robust and uncompromising measures that have been taken, good progress is being made in restoring order to the streets of London and other cities around our country. As I have made clear, nothing is off the table. Every contingency should be looked at. The police are already authorised to use baton rounds. As I said yesterday, while they would not be appropriate now, we do have in place contingency plans for water cannon to be available at 24 hours’ notice.

Some people have raised the issue of the Army. The Acting Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police said to me that he would rather be the last man left in Scotland Yard, with all his management team out on the streets, before he asked for the Army. That is the right attitude and one I share. But it is the Government’s responsibility to make sure that every contingency is looked at, including whether there are tasks that the Army could undertake that might free up more police for the front line.

Everyone watching these horrific actions will be struck by how they were organised via social media. Free flow of information can be used for good, but it can also be used for ill. So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality.

I have also asked the police if they need any other new powers. Specifically, currently they can only remove face masks in a specific geographical location and for a limited time. So I can announce today that we are going to give the police the discretion to require the removal of face coverings under any circumstances where there is reasonable suspicion that they are related to criminal activity. On dealing with crowds, we are also looking at the use of existing dispersal powers and whether any wider power of curfew is necessary.

Whenever the police face a new threat, they must have the freedom and the confidence to change tactics as necessary. This Government will always make sure they have the backing and political support to do so. The fight-back has well and truly begun. But there will be no complacency, and we will not stop until this mindless violence and thuggery is defeated and law and order is fully restored on all our streets.

Let me turn to the innocent victims. No one will forget the images of the woman jumping from a burning building or the furniture shop that had survived the Blitz now tragically burnt to the ground. Everyone will have been impressed by the incredibly brave words of Tariq Jahan, a father in Birmingham whose son was so brutally and tragically run over and killed. I give the people affected this promise: we will help you repair the damage, get your businesses back up and running, and support your communities.

Let me take each of these in turn. On repairing the damages, I can confirm that any individual, homeowner or business that has suffered damage to or loss of their buildings or property as a result of rioting can seek compensation under the Riot (Damages) Act, even if uninsured. The Government will ensure that the police have the funds they need to meet the cost of any legitimate claims, and whereas normally claims must be received within 14 days we will extend the period to 42 days. The Association of British Insurers has said it expects the industry to be paying out in excess of £200 million, and it has assured us that claims will continue to be dealt with as quickly and as constructively as possible.

On supporting businesses, we are today setting up a new £20 million high street support scheme to help affected businesses get back up and running quickly. To minimise the costs facing businesses, the Government will enable local authorities to grant business rate relief by funding at least three-quarters of their costs. We will defer tax payments for businesses in greatest need, through Time to Pay and other practical support. For houses and businesses that have been the most badly damaged, we have instructed the Valuation Office to immediately stop liability for council tax and business rates.

A specific point was raised with me in Wolverhampton yesterday: that planning regulations made it difficult for shops to put up protective shutters. We will weed out unnecessary planning regulations to ensure that businesses can get back on their feet and feel secure as quickly as possible.

On supporting local communities, I can confirm that the Bellwin scheme to support local authorities will be operational. However, to ensure that urgent funding is immediately available, we are today establishing a new £10 million recovery scheme to provide additional support to councils in making areas safe, clean and clear again.

The Government will also meet the immediate costs of emergency accommodation for families made homeless by these disturbances. The Secretaries of State for Communities and Local Government and Business have made details of these schemes available to the House today. Of course the situation continues to evolve, and we will keep the need for additional support under close review.

Finally, let me turn to the deeper problems. Responsibility for crime always lies with the criminal, but crime has a context and we must not shy away from it. I have said before that there is a major problem in our society with children growing up not knowing the difference between right and wrong. This is not about poverty, it is about culture—a culture that glorifies violence, shows disrespect to authority and says everything about rights but nothing about responsibilities. In too many cases the parents of these children, if they are still around, do not care where their children are or who they are with, let alone what they are doing. The potential consequences of neglect and immorality on this scale have been clear for too long, without proper action being taken.

As I said yesterday, there is no one step that can be taken, but we need a benefits system that rewards work and is on the side of families. We need more discipline in our schools. We need action to deal with the most disruptive families. We need a criminal justice system that scores a clear, heavy line between right and wrong—in short, all the action necessary to help mend our broken society.

At the heart of all the violence sits the issue of the street gangs. Territorial, hierarchical and incredibly violent, they are mostly composed of young boys, mainly from dysfunctional homes. They earn money through crime, particularly drugs, and are bound together by an imposed loyalty to an authoritarian gang leader. They have blighted life on their estates with gang-on-gang murders and unprovoked attacks on innocent bystanders. In the past few days, there is some evidence that they have been behind the co-ordination of the attacks on the police and the looting that has followed.

I want us to use the record of success against gangs of cities like Boston in the USA and Strathclyde in Scotland, which have done this by engaging the police, the voluntary sector and local government. I want this to be a national priority. We have already introduced gang injunctions and I can announce today that we are going to use them across the whole country for children and for adults.

There are also further sanctions available beyond the criminal justice system. Local authorities and landlords already have tough powers to evict the perpetrators from social housing. Some local authorities are already doing this. I want to see others follow their lead, and we will consider whether these powers need to be strengthened further.

I have asked the Home Secretary to work with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and other Cabinet colleagues on a cross-government programme of action to deal with this gang culture, with a report to Parliament in October. I also believe that we should be looking beyond our shores to learn the lessons from others who have faced similar problems. That is why I will be discussing how we can go further in getting to grips with gangs with people like Bill Bratton, former commissioner of police in New York and Los Angeles.

Of course, the problem is not just gangs. There are people who saw shop windows smashed and thought that they could just steal and it would be okay. It is not okay and these people will face the full consequences of their actions.

In the past few days we have seen a range of emotions sweep this country: anger, fear, frustration, despair, sadness and, finally, a determined resolve that we will not let a violent few beat us. We saw this resolve in the people who gathered in Clapham, Wolverhampton and Manchester with brooms to clean up the streets. We saw it in those who patrolled the roads in Enfield through the night to deter rioters. We saw it in the hundreds of people who stood guard outside Southall Temple, protecting it from vandalism.

This is a time for our country to pull together. To the law-abiding people who play by the rules, and who are the overwhelming majority in this country, I say: the fight-back has begun; we will protect you; and if you have had your livelihood and property damaged, we will compensate you. We are on your side. To the lawless minority—the criminals who have taken what they can get—I say this: we will track you down, we will find you, we will charge you and we will punish you. You will pay for what you have done.

We need to show the world, which has looked on appalled, that the perpetrators of the violence we have seen on our streets are not in any way representative of our country, nor of our young people. We need to show it that we will address our broken society and restore a sense of stronger morality and responsibility in every town, every street and every estate. A year away from the Olympics, we need to show it the Britain that does not destroy, but that builds; that does not give up but stands up; that does not look back, but always forwards. I commend the Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will welcome those contributions, from both the Leader of the Opposition and, most particularly, from the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury. Perhaps I may say how good it is to hear the authoritative voice of the church being represented in this House.

I thank the Leader of the Opposition for what she said and for the way in which she said it, on the whole. I will not say that I agree with every single word, but I very much share her horror at what we all saw on our televisions screens. It is right that we should not judge everything that happened by what we did see, but one cannot possibly be immune to some of the images that we saw on our screens in the past few days. The noble Baroness was entirely right to raise the fact that what we saw on our screens was affecting tens of thousands of people in this country—maybe even more. Some of them will be blighted for the rest of their lives by what has happened. She was right to call on the Government to make sure that we could deal with the criminality by cases being brought before the courts as swiftly as possible. I can confirm that that is happening. The courts are sitting all through the night when required to deal with cases. The Crown Court is now dealing with some of the more difficult ones.

The noble Baroness was also right to raise the question about CCTV and how we should deal with that. We believe that CCTV plays an incredibly important role in dealing with the criminality that has happened and we very much support the use of CCTV. We need to see it better regulated and we will perhaps need to see how regulation and/or legislation can change when we have had a chance to reflect and discuss with the police and the private sector how it can be used.

Of course there are many issues that we will need to debate and discuss in future about what has happened and why. The noble Baroness herself said that there were many and various solutions; indeed, the Prime Minister said as much in his Statement and raised some of them in it, as has the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury and some right reverend Prelates who have already spoken and will no doubt do so again shortly.

As for an inquiry, we have taken the view that, in the first instance, this should be a matter for Parliament and that a parliamentary inquiry should do the work first. Therefore, the Home Affairs Select Committee has already announced an inquiry into the riots. I do not suppose for one moment that that will be a matter of taking evidence simply from academics in Whitehall; I am convinced that the committee will need to reach out to the community, to talk to people who have been directly affected, to try to find out what were the causes and to make an authoritative report to Parliament.

On money, many people who have been affected—shopkeepers, individuals, home owners and tenants—will be most concerned about how they can get their lives back on the rails and what they can do about the shortage of money. I can confirm that as many fast-track provisions as possible will be made to try to provide that money. The new high street fund, which is a proposal by two government departments, is designed to shortcut as much as possible the need for funding. Tax authorities, working with local authorities, have been put onto the fastest track possible.

The noble Baroness also asked about the Olympics. The whole House will share the sense of shame of anyone who was abroad, read newspapers or saw some of the television reports emanating from London of what impact this would have on the Olympics. It is the focus of this Government and our predecessors and everyone involved to deliver a safe and secure Olympic and Paralympic Games here in London which Londoners, the rest of the country and the rest of the world can enjoy. The Games should be a peaceful celebration of sporting achievement and a cultural celebration; they are not a security event. We have highly experienced police and emergency services which have successfully policed major events in the past, and they will be able to bring to bear their experience of dealing with protests, both peaceful and law-abiding and violent, during the Games.

Of course, we will need to look carefully at all that has happened. I welcome what the noble Baroness said about looking at these things in a non-partisan way, but both she and I are aware how warily we need to tread the line of partisanship. The riots did not happen because there will be public spending cuts, nor will the reduced spending on the police affect the police's ability to get policemen on the streets.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Strathclyde]

In a few moments, my noble friend Lady Browning will no doubt wish to take up that point with her statistics on funding.

The most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury made a most powerful contribution. The whole House will join him when he talked about our deep sympathy for those who have been affected and thoughts for those who have lost hope. It became obvious, again from reading the newspapers and watching the television, that so many have lost hope in our society and for the future. Although none of us wants to justify or condone what happened, it is true that this criminality has a context.

The most reverend Primate called for ethos in our education system. I think he is entirely right, and I do not think he would find anyone in this House who would wish to disagree with that or with the overall view that something has gone badly wrong. However, we are forward thinking and we owe it to the next generation to solve this problem and to find the necessary solution to take us forward. The most reverend Primate rightly referred to the new friendships, the new networks and the basis for new trust that will take us forward.

We now have a few minutes—perhaps a bit more—to discuss some of these issues in detail. What this House does best is reflect after some time on what has happened and look carefully at the solutions that we need, and I am sure that in the months ahead we will have many opportunities to discuss these issues more fully.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the standing orders relating to public business be amended as follows:

Standing Order 40 (Arrangement of the Order Paper)

In paragraph (8), after “Affirmative Instruments”, insert “, Negative Instruments”.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, before the House agrees this Motion, perhaps I may ask why we are not now hearing the outcome of the hereditary Peers’ by-elections? That would have been normal at this time and indeed was widely expected. While I acknowledge that we are sitting an hour earlier than was originally intended, was it really not possible to complete the count by now?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend has the answer to the question in one. There is no solution because the counters are counting at the moment and have not completed their business. However, I am able to announce to the House that the announcement will be made at the end of the Third Reading of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill.

Motion agreed.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many representations have been received from the public in response to the House of Lords reform draft Bill and accompanying White Paper.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, the Government have received, and continue to receive, many representations on all aspects of House of Lords reform.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I did not really expect an answer to the Question so I am not disappointed. Have the Government still not learnt the lesson of the AV referendum? Unlike the Deputy Prime Minister, the British public do not think that our constitution is broken and they think that Government should spend their time on other, more important matters. Can I suggest that before the Government embark on any future constitutional experiments they apply two tests? First, do the public want it? Secondly, is there a political consensus to deliver it?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is true that the Government have not been overwhelmed with responses from the public after the publication of the White Paper. However, at least one interpretation of that is that the public are reasonably satisfied with the proposals that the Government have put forward. Of course, the public are understandably concerned with a whole range of important things, such as jobs, education and health, but because the reform of the House of Lords does not have an immediate resonance, that does not mean that it is important.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Strathclyde]

I have reminded the House of this before: at the last election all three main parties had in their manifestos a pledge to reform the House and people were very happy to vote for that. As for political consensus, we will see to the work of the Joint Committee when it reports next year.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, among the representations he has been examining, has my noble friend seen the report published on Monday entitled The End of the Peer Show?, in which Mr Hilary Benn has committed the Labour Party to a continuing campaign based on its manifesto commitment for a wholly elected House of Lords? Is my noble friend aware of any successful parliamentary candidate who arrived in the other place committed to voting against his party’s manifesto?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, no, I am not. I have not read Mr Benn’s no doubt splendid article, but given that the Recess starts later on today, perhaps it should be required reading for all noble Lords.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords, why is the Leader of the House so reticent about telling us how many representations he has actually had? He said many—is that 10, 20, 100, 500, 1,000? Will he take this opportunity to correct his Freudian slip when he said that House of Lords reform was not important?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that was well spotted by the noble Lord. Of course the issue is extremely important and something that this Government are very committed to dealing with. Since the general election, we have received over 180 letters from members of the public. Since the publication of the White Paper, we have received over 30 pieces of correspondence. The key point is that the vast majority of these letters call for a change in the way that this House is run.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, has my noble friend, having had such an overwhelming response, had the chance to memorise all these letters? Can he tell the House how many people have written to him or made representations on the National Health Service, on the Education Bill or on the Localism Bill? Does this not indicate that the general public are fairly well satisfied with what they have and very much more worried about many other things? Perhaps we could take the Recess to readjust the priorities of Her Majesty’s Government.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we have just set up a first-class Joint Committee of both Houses which is going to look at the draft Bill. Most of the letters we have received come up with their own new and improved schemes for the future of the House of Lords, or are interested in the Bishops remaining in the House of Lords and the representation of other faiths.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, public engagement with the Bill might be enhanced by describing its consequences in terms of the interaction of our citizens with this Parliament. How would the noble Lord the Leader advise a constituent in 2016 with two elected representatives to this Parliament, an MP from the opposition party and a senator for the governing party, who wished to raise an urgent issue with the Home Office? Should the constituent speak to MP or senator?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I hope that that is exactly one of the questions that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, will tackle in his Joint Committee. We do not anticipate senators, if that is what they are to be called, taking over the role of Members of Parliament. Of course, it will be entirely free for members of the public to write both to their Members of Parliament and to their senators.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I was fascinated by the figures that the noble Lord the Leader of the House produced. The House may like to know that a call for evidence has gone out from the Joint Committee. I sincerely hope that we will do much better than the Government on this.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I fully expect that the noble Lord will do so.

Public Confidence in the Media and the Police

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, this might be a convenient moment to repeat a Statement that was made earlier by the Prime Minister in another place on the subject of phone hacking.

“Over the past two weeks, a torrent of revelations and allegations has engulfed some of this country’s most important institutions. It has shaken people’s trust in the media and the legality of what they do; in the police and their ability to investigate media malpractice; and, yes, in politics and in politicians’ ability to get to grips with these issues.

People desperately want us to put a stop to the illegal practices, to ensure the independence and effectiveness of the police and establish a more healthy relationship between politicians and media owners. Above all, they want us to act on behalf of the victims: people who have suffered dreadfully, including through murder and terrorism, and who have had to relive that agony all over again because of phone hacking.

The public want us to work together to sort this problem out, because until we do so it will not be possible to get back to the issues they care about even more—getting our economy moving, creating jobs, helping with the cost of living, protecting them from terrorism and restoring fairness to our immigration and welfare systems.

Let me set out the action we have taken. We now have a well-led police investigation which will examine criminal behaviour by the media and corruption in the police. We have set up a wide-ranging and independent judicial inquiry under Lord Justice Leveson to establish what went wrong, why and what we need to do to ensure it never happens again.

I am the first Prime Minister to publish meetings with media editors, proprietors and senior executives, to bring complete transparency to the relationship between government Ministers and the media stretching right back to the general election. The House of Commons, by speaking so clearly about its revulsion at the phone hacking allegations, helped to cause the end of the News Corp bid for the rest of BSkyB.

Today I would like to update the House on the action that we are taking, first, on the make-up and remit of the public inquiry and, secondly, on issues concerning the police service. Thirdly, I will answer—I am afraid at some length—all of the key questions that have been raised about my role and that of my staff.

First, I will discuss the judicial inquiry and the panel of experts who will assist it. Those experts will be: the civil liberties campaigner and director of Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti; the former chief constable of the West Midlands, Sir Paul Scott-Lee; the former chairman of Ofcom, Lord Currie; the long-serving former political editor of “Channel 4 News”, Elinor Goodman; the former political editor of the Daily Telegraph, George Jones; and the former chairman of the Financial Times, Sir David Bell. These people have been chosen not only for their expertise in the media, broadcasting, regulation and policing, but for their complete independence from the interested parties.

I also said last week that the inquiry will proceed in two parts, and I set out a draft terms of reference. We have consulted with Lord Justice Leveson himself, with the Opposition, the chairs of relevant Select Committees and the devolved Administrations. I also talked to the family of Milly Dowler and the Hacked Off campaign. We have made some significant amendments to the remit of the inquiry.

With allegations that the problem of the relationship between the press and the police goes wider than just the Met, we have agreed that other relevant forces will now be within the scope of the inquiry. We have agreed that the inquiry should consider not just the relationship between the press, police and politicians, but their individual conduct too. We have also made clear that the inquiry should look at not just the press, but other media organisations, including broadcasters and social media, if there is any evidence that they have been involved in criminal activities. I am today placing in the Library of the House the final terms of reference. Lord Justice Leveson and the panel will get to work immediately. He will aim to make a report on the first part of the inquiry within 12 months. There should be no doubt: this public inquiry is as robust as possible; it is fully independent; and Lord Justice Leveson will be able to summon witnesses under oath.

Let me now turn to the extraordinary events we have seen over the past few days at Britain’s largest police force, the Met. On Sunday, Sir Paul Stephenson resigned as Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. I want to thank him for the work he has carried out in policing over many, many years in London and elsewhere. On Monday, Assistant Commissioner John Yates also resigned and, again, I want to express my gratitude for the work he has done, especially in improving our response to terrorism.

Given the sudden departure of two such senior officers, the first concern must be to ensure that effective policing of our capital, and confidence in that policing, is maintained. I have asked the Home Secretary and the Mayor of London to ensure that the responsibilities of the Met will continue seamlessly. The current deputy commissioner, Tim Godwin, stood in for Paul Stephenson when he was ill and did a good job. He will shortly do so again. The vital counterterrorism job carried out by John Yates will be taken on by the highly experienced Cressida Dick. The responsibilities of the deputy commissioner—which, the House will remember, include general oversight of the vital investigations both into hacking and into the police, Operations Weeting and Elveden—will not be done by someone from inside the Met, but instead by Bernard Hogan-Howe who will join temporarily from Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary. We are also looking to speed up the process for selecting and appointing the next commissioner, but we cannot hope that a change in personnel at the top of the Met is enough.

The simple fact is that this whole affair raises huge issues about the ethics and practices of our police. Let me state plainly that the vast majority of our police officers are beyond reproach and serve the public with distinction, but police corruption must be rooted out. Operation Elveden and Lord Justice Leveson’s inquiry are charged with doing just that, but I believe that we can and must do more.

Put simply, there are two problems: first, a perception that when problems arise, it is still “the police investigating the police”; and secondly, a lack of transparency in terms of police contacts with the media. We are acting on both. These were precisely the two points that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary addressed in her Statement to this House on Monday. We believe that this crisis calls for us to stand back and take another, broader look at the whole culture of policing in this country, including the way it is led.

At the moment, the police system is too closed. There is only one point of entry into the force. There are too few—and arguably too similar—candidates for the top jobs. As everyone knows, Tom Winsor is looking into police careers, and I want to see radical proposals for how we can open up our police force and bring in fresh leadership. The Government are introducing elected police and crime commissioners, ensuring that there is an individual holding the local force to account on behalf of local people. We need to see if we can extend that openness to the operational side too. Why should all police officers have to start at the same level? Why should someone with a different skill set not be able to join the police force in a senior role? Why should someone who has been a proven success overseas not be able to help turn around a force at home? I think that these are questions we must ask to get the greater transparency and stronger corporate governance that we need in Britain’s policing.

Finally, I turn to the specific questions that I have been asked in recent days. First, it has been suggested that my chief of staff was behaving wrongly when he did not take up then Assistant Commissioner Yates’s offer to be briefed on police investigations around phone hacking. I have said repeatedly about the police investigation that they should pursue the evidence wherever it leads and arrest exactly who they wish. That is exactly what they have done.

No. 10 has now published the full e-mail exchange between my chief of staff and John Yates, and it shows that my staff behaved entirely properly. Ed Llewellyn’s reply to the police made clear that it would be not be appropriate to give me or my staff any privileged briefing. The reply that he sent was cleared in advance by my permanent secretary, Jeremy Heywood. Just imagine if they had done the opposite and asked for or acquiesced in receiving privileged information, even if there was no intention to use it. There would have been quite justified outrage. To risk any perception that No. 10 was seeking to influence a sensitive police investigation in any way would have been completely wrong. Mr Yates and Sir Paul both backed this judgment in their evidence yesterday. Indeed, as John Yates said:

‘The offer was properly and understandably rejected’.

The Cabinet Secretary and the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee have both now backed that judgment too.

Next, there is the question as to whether the Ministerial Code was broken in relation to the BSkyB merger and meetings with News International executives. The Cabinet Secretary has ruled very clearly that the code was not broken, not least because I had asked to be entirely excluded from the decision.

Next, I would like to set the record straight on another question that arose yesterday—whether the Conservative Party had also employed Neil Wallis. The Conservative Party chairman has assured me that all the accounts have been gone through and has confirmed to me that neither Neil Wallis nor his company has ever been employed or contracted by the Conservative Party, nor has the Conservative Party made payments to either of them.

It has been drawn to our attention that Neil Wallis may have provided Andy Coulson with some informal advice on a voluntary basis before the election. To the best of my knowledge I did not know anything about this before Sunday night; but, as with revealing this information, we will be entirely transparent about this issue.

Finally, Mr Speaker, there is the question whether everyone—the media, the police, politicians—is taking responsibility in the appropriate manner. I want to address my own responsibilities very directly, and that brings me to my decision to employ Andy Coulson. I have said very clearly that if it turns out that Andy Coulson knew about the hacking at the News of the World he will not only have lied to me but lied to the police, to a Select Committee and to the Press Complaints Commission as well, of course, as perjuring himself in a court of law. More to the point, if that comes to pass, he could also expect to face severe criminal charges.

I have an old-fashioned view about ‘innocent until proven guilty’, but if it turns out that I have been lied to, that would be the moment for a profound apology. In that event, I can tell you I will not fall short. My responsibilities are for hiring him and for the work that he did in Downing Street. On the work that he did, I will repeat, perhaps not for the last time, that his work at Downing Street has not been the subject of any serious complaint. And, of course, he left months ago.

On the decision to hire him, I believe that I have answered every question about this. It was my decision. I take responsibility. People will, of course, make judgments about it. Of course I regret and am extremely sorry about the furore it has caused. With 20:20 hindsight, and all that has followed, I would not have offered him the job, and I expect that he would not have taken it. But you do not make decisions in hindsight; you make them in the present. You live as you learn and, believe you me, I have learnt.

I look forward to answering any and all questions about these issues and, following the Statement, I will open the debate. But the greatest responsibility I have is to clear up this mess, so let me finish by saying this. There are accusations of criminal behaviour by parts of the press and potentially by the police, where the most rapid and decisive action is required. There are the issues of excessive closeness to media groups and media owners where both Labour and Conservatives have to make a fresh start. There is the history of missed warnings—Select Committee reports and Information Commissioner reports missed by the last Government, but, yes, missed by the Official Opposition too.

What the public expect is not petty point-scoring. What they want and deserve is a concerted action to rise to the level of events and pledge to work together to sort this issue once and for all. It is in this spirit that I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I begin my response to the noble Baroness by referring to what she said at the end of her remarks. It is true that we are on the verge of starting the Recess, and that the House of Commons, which had already risen, was recalled today to hear the Statement and to hold a short debate on the subject. She is quite right to say that events will continue to unfold. This is a fast-moving story and anyone would have been amazed at how it has developed over the past couple of weeks. I particularly agree with what she said in welcoming all the inquiries that are taking place. We must allow them to get on with the job and to report back as soon as possible. It is also important that Parliament should be kept fully informed and play its continuing role not just in debating these issues, but also in holding the Government to account.

I agree with what the noble Baroness said about the police. Our decent, hardworking police men and women provide an important and vital service, and I agree that the vast majority deserve considerably more. Equally, I think it is right that we have announced the review on leadership. As it unfolds, I shall of course report back to the House.

The Prime Minister has announced the occasions on which he met executives, editors and proprietors from News International, and it is entirely right that he should have done so. The noble Baroness asked whether I could confirm that at no stage was the BSkyB takeover bid discussed. I can confirm that, and indeed not only can I do so, but also the Cabinet Secretary, no less, has said that there has been no breach of the Ministerial Code. Rebekah Wade said in her evidence yesterday that not one single inappropriate conversation had taken place about the bid, and the Prime Minister has set out every meeting since the last general election. I think he also wished that perhaps the Opposition might do the same about any of their meetings with News International since the election—or, indeed, with the previous Government. We all know that the relationships between News International and the last two Prime Ministers were extremely close.

I wholly accept that the leader of the Opposition in the House of Commons, Mr Miliband, had to raise questions about Andy Coulson and his relationship with the Prime Minister. In the Statement, the Prime Minister said that there will be no question about Andy Coulson’s conduct in No. 10. I now very much hope that the leader of the Opposition, Mr Miliband, can accept the assurances and very clear answers that the Prime Minister has given in his role, the reason why he was employed, what happens now and the proposition that Mr Coulson should be innocent until proven guilty.

The noble Baroness also asked a very clear question about the workings of the Enterprise Act. I am grateful both to her and to the shadow Attorney-General for her thoughts. The Enterprise Act allows the Secretary of State to issue only one European intervention notice. It is correct that the Enterprise Act does not allow for a European intervention notice to be substantively revised once it has been issued, or for a subsequent notice to be issued. There is increasingly a widely held concern, which I am sure should be looked at, whether in the communications review or in the ongoing competition policy review, about the point being relevant across different uses of the public interest test. We would be very happy to work with the noble Baroness or the shadow Attorney-General in looking further at the issue.

Likewise, the Section 58 orders contain the power to allow Ministers to intervene in mergers on the basis of public interest and to make decisions. There are currently three specified areas in which they can use their discretion: national security, the media—including plurality, broadcasting standards, the accurate presentation of news in newspapers—and the stability of the UK financial system. That there might be a gap within these public interest tests has recently been thrown up. We might also want a review when these are triggered. We slightly feel that we should await the outcome of part one of the Leveson inquiry. However, I can confirm that any changes can be made through secondary legislation and again that the Government would be very happy to work between the parties to see which is the best way forward.

[Lord Fowler]

I underline the complete honesty and good reputation of the Prime Minister’s chief of staff, Ed Llewellyn, who seems to have acted entirely properly. I ask the Leader of the House two questions. First, although there are many extraneous issues now swirling around, do not the essential issues remain the extent of the illegal phone hacking—which is a direct threat to the public in this country—why the police and the Press Complaints Commission were unable to stop it and just how some clear water can be put between politicians and media in this country? Those are the issues. We now need action. Secondly, although I entirely welcome the judicial inquiry, on reflection would it not have been better to have set up this inquiry several months ago rather than repeatedly declining to do so?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My noble friend Lord Fowler forgot to mention that he is one of those who has been calling for an inquiry for several months. He has, therefore, been proved entirely right—better late than never. We have possibly got a more far-reaching judge-led inquiry than we would have done hitherto. It is perhaps the awfulness of the story that has developed in recent weeks that has allowed the Government and Parliament to agree so wholeheartedly between the parties and across the Houses that it should be done at such a high level.

As far as the other questions that my noble friend raised, I agree that we need to know as soon as possible the extent of the illegal phone hacking and why the police and the PCC were unable to deal with it. This is precisely what I hope the inquiry will provide for us as soon as possible. As part of that, my noble friend asked that there should be more clear water between politics and the press. I think that that position is already set fair, and not just because of the increased transparency. Ministers will now declare all their contacts with the press at a senior level. That will be to the benefit of the press and politicians alike. I very much welcome that.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement. I wish to ask him two questions. First, the Prime Minister has said that the public want us to work together to sort out this problem. In that respect, will he look at the review of the Press Complaints Commission and ensure that before the powers and functions of the new commission are determined there is adequate public consultation so that the public’s point of view is taken into account?

The second point about which I am concerned is that, whereas the first part of Lord Justice Leveson’s inquiry has to report within 12 months, there is no timescale attached to the investigation to be carried out by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. As someone who has supervised a similar investigation with the former police complaints commission, I know that the timescale involved is considerable. You are talking about at least 12 months to supervise an investigation of this nature, following which criminal charges are likely to be laid. If that is the case, we are talking of a process which may go on for about two or three years. The impact of that is very serious because none of the other inquiries that have been set up can carry out their work adequately unless this investigation has been finalised. Will my noble friend look at this aspect to see whether a particular timescale is appropriate in this investigation?

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House please remind Members to make very brief questions or comments?

[Lord Strathclyde]

The whole House will have heard what the noble Baroness has just said.

My noble friend Lord Dholakia is right: the Prime Minister thinks that we should all work together. I think that reflects the public’s mood as well. Today we published the terms of reference for the review of the press and press ethics. I am not sure that there was much public consultation but there certainly was consultation with the devolved authorities, Select Committees in another place and, of course, with Lord Justice Leveson.

As regards my noble friend’s second point, time limits are not a straightforward issue. We have asked the Leveson inquiry to report back on the first part within 12 months—we hope that it will do that—but as regards the second part, we have to leave it to the members of the inquiry to determine to what extent they can operate without affecting the police inquiry and subsequent court process, if that occurs. However, I can confirm to my noble friend that HMIC should report before the end of the autumn.

[Lord Dear]

My Lords, I welcome the thrust of the Statement that the Leader has read to the House. It will come as no surprise when I say that I particularly welcome the thrust of the report on police leadership and the whole question of ethics that surrounds that. I have tried to highlight that subject repeatedly over the years. We must get this right and this is the opportunity to do so.

I wish to ask the Leader of the House two questions. First, given that the door of this issue has flown open, as it were, and given the kinetic energy that has grown up behind the events of the past couple of weeks, does he agree with me that there is a danger that we shall go too far too fast and in effect have a knee-jerk reaction and get this wrong? Coupled with that, will he also agree that to prevent that, we now need a review body established with respected and experienced individuals to look at the subjects of police leadership, ethics, morality, attitudes and so on, in depth but as a matter of some urgency? Could such a body be set up this autumn in advance of the Winsor report? The report is of course critical, but that body could quite well start taking its own evidence, coming to some conclusion, and then sweep the Winsor report up before it reaches a final conclusion.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, those are two valuable ideas. I agree that there is a tremendous opportunity but that equally there is a danger of having a knee-jerk reaction. We are all too well aware of this in both Houses of Parliament. We have an opportunity to get it right and we should go forward on that basis, particularly dealing with the issue of leadership.

Secondly, on the whole question of leadership, the Government are taking this immensely seriously and we want to move forward on it with the police. The noble Lord’s knowledge and understanding of this issue is extremely important, and I know that the Home Office will very much welcome his input.

[Lord Prescott]

My Lords, as one of the victims referred to, I welcome the Statement by the Leader of the House who has made clear the commitment to get to the bottom of the hacking, the inadequate police inquiry, and indeed the IPCC.

However, is the noble Lord aware that in July 2009 I sent a letter to the Prime Minister—he was the Leader of the Opposition then—warning him of the appointment of Andy Coulson as press adviser? It was clear that Mr Coulson was in the middle of the News of the World phone hacking allegations, and I advised the Prime Minister that he was not fit to enter Government as No. 10’s director of communications. Can the Leader confirm that within 12 months of that the Prime Minister was to refuse advice from the police, newspaper editors, the Guardian, the Deputy Prime Minister, and indeed his own chief of staff? All these warnings were ignored, and it is simply not good enough to hide behind the excuse of 20-20 hindsight.

Can the Leader of the House also confirm that in the dozens of social and political meetings that he held with News International, the Prime Minister now appears to have adopted the Murdoch corporate policy, best displayed by the three monkeys: hear no evil, see no evil, and speak no evil? Will the Leader agree that this is a definition of the lack of judgment which the Prime Minister is now rightly accused of?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, many in the House have a great deal of sympathy for the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, as one of the victims of the hacking scandal. However, he belittles himself by making these rather fetid political points. If he was writing to anybody in the summer of 2009, it should of course have been the then Prime Minister, asking him why he had failed to do anything or to respond to any of the reports from the Select Committees, the Information Commissioner and all those other people who raised these issues.

[Lord Inglewood]

My Lords, I support the Prime Minister’s Statement which my noble friend the Leader of the House repeated, but in it he pointed out that the Prime Minister had said:

“We have consulted with Lord Justice Leveson himself, the Opposition, the Chairs of the relevant Select Committees and the devolved administrations”,

about the terms of reference of the inquiry. I am privileged to speak as the Chairman of the Communications Committee in this House. We were not consulted—does my noble friend know why?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have absolutely no idea—in fact I had no idea they were consulting with the Select Committees in another place either. It is a good point though, and I will raise it with No. 10: when consulting chairmen of Select Committees in another place they should similarly consider Peers in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Condon]

My Lords—

[Lord Gilbert]

My Lords, I have given way three times and I am not going to do it again. I welcome the Statement of the Prime Minister—not only the text but the way in which it was delivered. I watched it and he delivered it to the other place with a good tone. One lacuna worries me. There is no discussion or mention that I have seen in what the Prime Minister is saying about the decision on who is a fit and proper person to take control of parts of the media. I am sure that I carry the House with me when I say it is essential that the people who determine who has or has not a role as a fit and proper person should themselves be beyond reproach. I hope that we can have an assurance from the Leader of the House that that consideration will be in the Prime Minister’s mind, and in front of Lord Justice Leveson.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I very much welcome the noble Lord’s support for the Prime Minister this afternoon. I, too, thought he did splendidly. The noble Lord says that there is a lacuna on the “fit and proper person” test and he particularly wants to ensure that those who are making the test should themselves be beyond reproach. That must be an ambition for us all and it is the kind of issue that may well come out of the inquiry. I know that the noble Lord will be the first to draw it to our attention as we debate these matters.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Doocey]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the MPA. The allegation that police officers accepted money from News International has been hugely damaging to the Metropolitan Police. It is absolutely essential that any investigation is seen to be thorough and independent. The Government have said that the IPCC will carry out a “supervised” investigation, but this means that the initial investigation will be under the control and direction of the Met. Do the Government not agree that it would be more appropriate for the IPPC to carry out a high-level independent investigation that would be completely independent of the Met?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend is entirely right that these accusations are highly damaging to the Met and need to be dealt with extremely quickly and transparently. I do not agree with her that an IPCC-led investigation will affect its independence or ability to come up with the right result. There are so many reviews, inquiries and ongoing internal discussions that as the months go by I think we will get increasingly confused as to who is reporting on whom. This is important because, as my noble friend says, public confidence in the Met will be severely damaged unless we can clear this up as soon as possible.

[Lord Condon]

My Lords, as someone who had the honour and privilege to serve as commissioner for seven years, I particularly welcome the Prime Minister’s affirmation that the vast majority of police officers are doing a very good job and that should not be lost sight of. However, does the Leader of the House agree that to avoid a meltdown in police morale over the next few months the Government must find a co-ordinating mechanism to draw together the strands of Lord Justice Leveson’s inquiry, the other inquiries that have been mentioned, the police reform Bill, the Winsor review on pay and conditions and all these other matters that are interacting? In previous times a royal commission would have been the vehicle to draw together all these strands in these most difficult circumstances. However, I realise that royal commissions are not in fashion. I hope that the Leader of the House will agree that the Government are now under an obligation to bring together a careful co-ordinating mechanism to sequence the findings, recommendations and interdependence of all the inquiries that are looking at the police service.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, with all his experience as seven years as Met commissioner, will know all about police morale. Clearly, everything that has happened in recent months—particularly in the past few days—will cast a long shadow. I think that the noble Lord is right to say that we need to find a way of bringing these threads together. Whether that is through a royal commission, I am less certain. We need the inquiries to get going, particularly that of Lord Justice Leveson and the police inquiries, to begin to see some of the fruits of their labour, and then take longer-term decisions. Perhaps I may echo what the noble Lord, Lord Dear, said; we should not make knee-jerk reactions, but consider with care the results of these inquiries.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal]

My Lords, I commend what the noble Lord the Leader of the House has said in relation to the willingness to look at the revision to the law that may be necessary in the short term. Does he agree that it is very important for this House and the other place to do what we can immediately to cure the flaws that this bid has now given voice to? If the negative resolution procedure is available to us and we could, over the summer, plug the gap and fill it by September, should we not seize that opportunity? Making provision to prevent anyone taking adventitious advantage of a misrepresentation, bad faith or a mistake is essential; having the public interest at the forefront is also critical and we should move swiftly together to fill that gap without any further delay.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we are very happy to work closely with the noble and learned Baroness and others in her party to plug that gap if we can identify it.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

I strongly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, that the tone of the Prime Minister’s Statement in the House of Commons was entirely appropriate. I strongly endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Dear, has said about leadership; it is extremely important. There is another implication flowing from these rapidly moving events and it relates to the comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, about fit and proper persons. This might touch the headlines shortly were Mr Murdoch to decide, for various reasons, that he did not want to continue with his news media in this country. The issue of fit and proper persons wishing to inherit may become a major issue.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, this is an extremely good point and one which is well taken by the Government.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords, my point is a very short one and it is simply to add to something said by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. Surely it would be better simply to leave it to Lord Justice Leveson and his panel to decide in what order they will take the various matters into which they are inquiring and not divide them up into part one or part two. It seems to me a pointless exercise. Why not leave it to Lord Justice Leveson?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I understand. There are so many people inside and outside Parliament who wish to know more as quickly as possible and to take a view on how we should progress, but I very much agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. Everyone says that Lord Justice Leveson is a man of exceptional integrity and intelligence; having asked him to do the job we should allow him to get on with it and produce the result.

Election of Lord Speaker

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating the noble Baroness on becoming our next Speaker. I am sure that everybody will wish to join in supporting her and encouraging her not just in this transition period but throughout her term of office.

My purpose in rising now is to inform the House that there will be an opportunity to pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the Lord Speaker, for her distinguished work as Speaker of this House and for being the first holder of the office of Lord Speaker. That occasion will take place at the start of business on Monday 5 September.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I rise briefly as I realise that now is not the time for tributes. However, as Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition in this House, I just want to convey the very warm congratulations of our Benches to the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza. This is another step in the evolution of our House. We have had another successful election for a Lord Speaker. It is extraordinary that we have had two women. I know that the noble Baroness will have the confidence of the whole House and that she will do a splendid job for the Lords, inside and outside Parliament, and for Parliament as a whole.

Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Carrying on Regulated Activities by Way of Business) (Amendment) Order 2011

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the draft orders and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.

Motions agreed.