Chairman of Committees
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of the House for this Session.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord on his appointment to a role that I am confident he will fulfil extremely ably. As I move the Motion, I am sure that the House will wish to join me in paying tribute to my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara, who today retires from that important office. He was a dedicated Chairman of Committees, and throughout his years in office displayed time and again his good judgment and good humour in endless committees and here at the Dispatch Box.
His roles were many and varied, but he fulfilled all of them with great skill—from his duties on the Woolsack to overseeing major works, most recently the new cast-iron roofs that any noble Lord who was here over Easter will know are desperately needed, answering Oral Questions and resisting calls for a House of Lords cat to catch House of Lords mice. Noble Lords from other Benches will say more about the work that he so ably oversaw, but perhaps I may say a few words about the success of the Millbank House project. It is exceptional these days for building works to finish on time and within budget, but this project managed both, allowing Members to move in as planned after the Summer Recess. I can personally testify to the amount of time that the noble Lord put into liaising with the usual channels and chairing meetings of the accommodation steering group.
The noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, was chairman in challenging times for the House, and in particular for the Committee for Privileges. He chaired that committee with great sensitivity and wisdom, and the more robust complaints system that we developed was crucial in upholding the reputation of the House and its work in difficult times. I am sure that the whole House will join me in expressing its appreciation of the noble Lord for his work, and in expressing its warmest and best wishes for his future as he returns to the Back Benches.
Queen’s Speech
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I cannot say that I agree with every single word that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition has said this afternoon. However, it is a great pleasure to support her in moving her Motion. She moved it in a spirit of unity and can be assured of creating a warm consensus across all sides of the House this afternoon. I hope this is not the last time this Session that we have such an outbreak of consensus on a Motion to adjourn the House.
The noble Baroness is my predecessor as Leader of the House. It is rare that both of us leading from the Dispatch Box should have a similar experience as Leaders of this House. She is well remembered as having fulfilled that role with dignity and energy. However, she knows as well as I do that this House works only because the Opposition co-operate with the Government to deliver the business, although, looking back at an historically long Session—probably rather too long—we sometimes came perilously close to stretching that co-operation almost to breaking point. We managed to step back from the brink, and it is a testament to her leadership of the Benches opposite and the service she has given to the House as a whole that the affection and respect in which she is held by noble Lords around the House have remained constant.
On behalf of all your Lordships, I thank and congratulate Black Rod, his staff and the doorkeepers for the magnificent job which they did today. As I came into the House this morning and saw the tightly squeezed rows of Peers before me, I could not help but think that the doorkeepers could show sardine packers a trick or two.
We have today been reminded anew of the very special role played by monarchy in our society and democracy, as Her Majesty the Queen opened a new Session of her Parliament in her Diamond Jubilee year. We remain deeply indebted to her for all that she does for Parliament and the nation and look forward to her Jubilee celebrations, which will take place in only a few weeks’ time. Coupled with the Olympics and the Paralympic Games, they will make for a summer of celebration, whatever the weather.
I join the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition in paying tribute to my noble friends Lord Cope of Berkeley and Lady Jolly for moving and seconding the Motion for an humble Address. I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Cope chose to accept the invitation to propose the humble Address. He is possessed of the shrewdness that comes from vast experience. As his lucid intervention today served to remind us, the House does not hear enough from Peers such as him. In opposition, he was a remarkable and successful Chief Whip and his parliamentary record speaks for itself, but what is less well known is his long-term championing of small firms and their role in providing growth and jobs in this country. All those sentiments find ready echoes in the gracious Speech.
As my noble friend Lady Jolly pointed out, my noble friend Lord Cope is also an expert in vintage cars and is the proud owner of an ancient Bentley. Like her, I did not know that it was a Derby Bentley but no matter, because upon retirement from the Front Bench we presented him with an extra large, bumper tin of high-quality automotive wax polish. I hope that the whole House agrees that seeing how fit and energetic my noble friend is, he has clearly been putting his chamois leather to good use at weekends.
My noble friend Lady Jolly is fresh blood by comparison, having joined the House in 2010, but she was already battle-hardened for anything that this House could throw at her. She is a legend among Liberal Democrats in the south-west of England, and many Liberal Democrat MPs owe their seats to her hard work. We have just heard that in a previous life she ran election campaigns for none other than my noble friend Lord Tyler. If she managed to get him elected, just imagine what she could do for the rest of us. My noble friend may find that her popularity soars as Peers, keen to be elected, listen to her pearls of wisdom. In her short spell on these Benches, she has lost no time in making an impressive contribution to the legislative work of this House and to the effective operation of the coalition. I congratulate her on her eloquent speech today.
It was my noble friend Lord Ferrers who, two years ago and on this same occasion, reminded us that the whole point of a coalition is that no one gets their way. I said then that my noble friend is far wiser than he likes to let on and I fear that that particular slip will have done incalculable damage to his reputation. I am sure that the whole House was thrilled to see him back in his place in the House today and I hope that he will be back again soon.
In this House we have made the coalition work effectively, and I pay special tribute to my noble friend Lord McNally, the Deputy Leader. I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Shutt of Greetland, who has spent the past two years at the coal-face of the coalition. We are greatly indebted to him. I join my noble friend Lady Jolly in warmly welcoming his successor, my noble friend Lord Newby, to the Front Bench as Deputy Chief Whip and Captain of the Yeoman of the Guard.
On one level it is no surprise that our two parties have taken to coalition more quickly and more naturally than one might have expected. After all, we had a head start. No one party has a majority in this House, so we all came into government with considerable experience of what it is like to have to build a coalition for each and every vote while in opposition. However, I have noticed that on occasion some of my new colleagues would still like to create alliances that lead to the defeat of, rather than support for, the Government.
I think it is well understood that the business of this House has never been to throw out legislation but to improve it. Over the course of the past Session, the Government were forced to think again on a wide range of issues. Indeed, we were defeated in almost one in five votes. There were moments of high drama and tension, but in the end the House performed the role it has carved out for itself and performed it well. There can be no question that each Bill reaching the statute book last Session benefited from its passage through this House. Whatever our tussles with the other place, we must have an established pattern of work here, rules to play by and conventions to respect and stick to. There must be a level playing field both in challenging the Government and in securing their business.
Of course, other factors have been at work, too. We have seen an influx of new Peers, many of them attending a State Opening for the first time today. The number of Peers attending the House regularly has risen, as has the number of Members wishing to take part in our proceedings. I am very pleased that early in this coming Session we will be appointing three new Select Committees, including one to conduct post-legislative scrutiny, and setting aside additional resource for pre-legislative scrutiny, thereby creating many more opportunities for many more Peers to participate in the committee work of the House.
There will, of course, be important legislative work to do, as your Lordships will have gleaned from the gracious Speech. There is no belittling the scale of the challenge faced by this coalition Government on taking office. The cornerstone of our shared programme for government was, and remains, to reduce the deficit, restore economic growth, promote investment and create jobs. The country was crying out for a change of values, craving more opportunity and fairness in our economy and more responsibility in our society. The Government are on the side of hard-working people, ending the something-for-nothing culture by reforming welfare and making work pay. We are reforming education to give all children the best start in life. We have capped immigration and we are protecting the NHS, increasing spending every single year. Over the next few years, our task is to ensure that these policies are implemented properly.
The early business of this House will include three Bills carried over in the House of Commons from the previous Session to this. They are the Civil Aviation Bill, the Local Government Finance Bill and the Financial Services Bill. A number of new Bills will also begin their passage in this House, including a Bill to establish a groceries code adjudicator. Each of those four measures received pre-legislative scrutiny last Session. In addition, I expect a Bill to ratify the treaty establishing the European stability mechanism; a crime and courts Bill to establish a National Crime Agency, a single county court system and a single Family Court in England and Wales; and a justice and security Bill to strengthen oversight of the security and intelligence services and other related matters. They will all start their passage in this House. The other place will first be dealing with voter registration, defamation, the enterprise Bill and public service pensions.
No doubt to the disappointment of many noble Lords, plans for reform of the composition of this House have been included in the gracious Speech. As the House knows, proposals were put before a Joint Committee at a formative stage for pre-legislative scrutiny, and the Government are now in the process of adapting their proposals in light of the committee’s report and the advice offered by noble Lords in the debate that ensued. I could not glean much from what the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition said about support for this package of reform, and I very much hope that we will hear more tomorrow afternoon when we debate it in detail. We will be coming forward with legislation in due course, and I will say more on that when we resume the debate tomorrow.
For now, let me reiterate what I said a fortnight ago. For some time now, the outline of a consensus on the second phase of reform of this House has begun to seem possible. There is only one way to test whether that consensus really exists or can be secured, which is to introduce a Bill and then allow Parliament to take a view. This House is rightly regarded as the more mature of the two Houses of Parliament, not least in wear and tear, but I am glad to say, also in conduct. For that reason I have been among those stoking the expectation that when the Government submit their Bills for scrutiny and revision by this House, noble Lords will discharge their duty with their customary diligence and rigour, seizing the opportunity to showcase the House at its best, while we bask in the rare glow of attention. For my own part, as Leader of the House, I will continue to do all that is in my power to ensure that your Lordships’ voice is listened to, as well as recorded over the coming Session. I am confident that this House, steeped in experience as well as tradition, will not fail to rise to the task before us.
This Session will be much shorter than the last, but I can assure your Lordships that we will still have much to do. I am delighted to support the Motion of the noble Baroness to adjourn the debate.
Royal Commission
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, it not being convenient for Her Majesty personally to be present here this day, she has been pleased to cause a Commission under the Great Seal to be prepared for proroguing this present Parliament.
Prorogation: Her Majesty’s Speech
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, by virtue of Her Majesty’s Commission which has been now read, we do, in Her Majesty’s name, and in obedience to Her Majesty’s Commands, prorogue this Parliament to the 9th day of May, to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Wednesday, the 9th day of May.
News Corporation: Conduct of Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, perhaps this is an appropriate time to take a short break from the debate on the report of the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Richard. With the leave of the House, I shall repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer given by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister earlier this afternoon in response to an Urgent Question from the Leader of the Opposition. The Statement is as follows:
“Last Wednesday I answered questions on this issue at PMQs and the Culture Secretary made a full statement. But let me set out the position again. I set up the Leveson inquiry last summer to investigate the culture, ethics and practices of the media and the relations between the media and the police, and the media and politicians. It is a full judge-led inquiry, with evidence given under oath and full access to papers and records. No Government before have ever taken such comprehensive action. It is this Government who are putting these issues properly on the table and getting them dealt with. Let me deal with the three issues in this question: the conduct of the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport; the nature of the inquiry needed to get to the bottom of these issues; and the wider issues over the relationship between politicians and the media.
First, on the Culture Secretary, as was made clear in his Statement last Wednesday, in every respect with regard to the News Corporation bid, the Culture Secretary asked for independent advice and acted on it. He was not required to ask or to follow such advice, but he did so. He acted fairly and impartially and in line with the advice of his Permanent Secretary. Indeed, as he set out in his Statement to this House last Wednesday, he acted against the interests of News Corporation on four key decisions: on being minded to refer the bid to the Competition Commission; on refusing to accept News Corporation’s undertakings without advice first from the OFT and Ofcom; on extending the consultation; and on going back to Ofcom for further advice about the impact of phone hacking. I have seen no evidence to suggest that in handling this issue the Secretary of State acted at any stage in a way that was contrary to the Ministerial Code.
In terms of the Secretary of State’s responsibilities towards his department let me say this. The Permanent Secretary of the department approved the approach his department took to the quasi-judicial process, which included a small number of people acting as contact points with News Corporation, as is required and normal in such a process; and the Permanent Secretary of the department has stated that he was ‘aware’ and ‘content’ for contact to be made between the Culture Secretary’s special adviser and News Corporation. However, it is quite clear that this contact became improper and inappropriate and went beyond the requirements set out by the Secretary of State or the Permanent Secretary. That is why the special adviser resigned and he was right to do so.
There are correct procedures to follow in this regard and they need to be followed scrupulously. That is why last week I asked the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, and the head of the Civil Service, Sir Bob Kerslake, to write to all departments clarifying the rigorous procedures that they should have in place for handling cases of this nature.
This leads to the second issue: the nature of the inquiry or inquiries best suited to get to the bottom of this issue. I consulted the Cabinet Secretary and decided it was right to allow Lord Justice Leveson to conduct his inquiry and not to commission a parallel process to establish the facts. Let me repeat; what we have is a judge-led inquiry, with witnesses required to give evidence under oath, full access to papers and records, and cross-examination by barristers—all live on television. There is nothing this tough or rigorous that the Civil Service or independent adviser could provide.
Of course, it is not for Lord Justice Leveson to determine whether a Minister has broken the Ministerial Code. That is an issue for me and I will deal with it properly. I will not wait until the end of the Leveson inquiry to take action if action is needed. If new evidence emerges from the Leveson inquiry that the Ministerial Code has been broken, I will either seek the advice of Sir Alex Allan or take action directly. But the key point is this: in order to do this, it is neither necessary nor right to have a parallel investigation that could duplicate, cut across or possibly pre-empt what Lord Justice Leveson is doing. Lord Justice Leveson offered his own view on Wednesday when he said that,
‘although I have seen requests for other inquiries and other investigations … it seems to me that the better course is to allow this inquiry to proceed’.
I agree with him entirely.
Let me briefly turn to the bigger picture. I am and always will be a fierce defender of the freedom of the press in this country; it is one of the central pillars of our democracy. But the relationship between politicians and the media has been too close for decades. The Leveson inquiry—which this Government set up—gives Parliament and politicians of all parties the opportunity to get this right for the future. Already we have introduced transparency about the meetings we have with the media. Everyone can see which proprietors or editors I meet, whether publicly or privately.
Let me just say this: like other party leaders in our country for decades, I have tried to convince media outlets to support the policies of my party and now my Government. But let me be clear: there was not and never has been a grand bargain between the Conservative Party and Rupert Murdoch or James Murdoch. Indeed, look for one moment at the number of meetings that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown had with Rupert Murdoch when they were Prime Minister. Blair had seven, Brown had 13 and I have had four. The idea that there was some agreement that in return for their support we would somehow allow this merger to go through is simply not true. I have to say if that was the case, and while I respect him deeply, what on earth was I doing making the right honourable Member for Twickenham the Business Secretary responsible for this? The proprietors of News Corporation have denied under oath at the Leveson inquiry any type of deal, and I will do the same.
Let me just make this last point. Unlike the party opposite, we were not trying to convince a centre-right proprietor of a set of newspapers with solidly centre-right views to change the position of a lifetime. We were arguing a simple proposition: that the last Government were irresponsible, exhausted and bad for our country, and that they ought to go.
While I have said that the relationship between politicians and the media has been too close, I note that none of the people opposite has disclosed any of the meetings they had with News International or other newspaper executives while they were in office. Instead of endlessly trying to use the Leveson inquiry for party-political purposes, is it not time that they were honest about what they did in government? While the country wants to hear about jobs, investment, living standards and the great challenges we face—such as debt—they just play one-sided party politics. Instead of endlessly trying to use the Leveson inquiry for party-political purposes, is it not time that they were honest about what they did in government—and face up to the real mess that they left this country in?”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement of the Prime Minister, which we will now deal with in the usual way.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not say this very often, but I think there are very few times when a prime ministerial Statement is more suited to the House of Commons than it is here, and I think this is one of those occasions. Notwithstanding that, the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition says that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State should resign at once, yet she admits that she has not heard all the facts of the case. That is what she started off with. In fact, that repeats something that Harriet Harman said. Within 23 minutes of the evidence being made clear, she called for the resignation of my right honourable friend. That is a ridiculous way to go about business. My right honourable friend is entirely entitled to give his evidence in the same way as those who have accused him of wrongdoing, and that is what he is going to do.
There is no point praying in aid all these former great Cabinet Secretaries who distinguish themselves in this House. The former Cabinet Secretary the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, made it clear that following the process that the Prime Minister has chosen:
“Much more will be made public than if it is done by a nominated retired civil servant”.
The noble Lord is someone of tremendous eminence.
What is going on here, and what is going on with Labour’s position? The people opposite are those who defended Charlie Whelan and Damian McBride who, I gather, were special advisers in the previous Government. Did any Ministers resign as a result of their appalling wrongdoing?
The noble Baroness said that the Secretary of State should be investigated for breaking the Ministerial Code. The Prime Minister has never said that he will not launch an investigation into whether the Ministerial Code has been broken. All he has said is that there should be a proper process and that it should start when the Secretary of State gives his evidence to the Leveson inquiry. Lord Justice Leveson himself has accepted and agreed that there should not be a parallel process so, as far as I can see, it is all about timing.
What about the specific allegations? Did the Culture Secretary mislead Parliament by saying he was publishing all the exchanges between his department and News Corporation? He certainly did not mislead Parliament. He has laid out clearly in the House of Commons what he is going to do, and he will do it. He has said that he will make available all relevant communications, including texts and e-mails, to the Leveson inquiry and, at that stage, he will be judged upon them.
Was the Ministerial Code breached when the special adviser Adam Smith leaked the content of a Written Ministerial Statement to News Corp the day before it was given to the House? We have to turn to the words of Adam Smith himself in his resignation letter. He said that the extent and nature of the contact between himself and News Corporation was not authorised or known about by either the Culture Secretary or the Permanent Secretary. I think that absolves the Secretary of State, but I am not going to rush to judgment in the way that the noble Baroness has done, although I am sure that he behaved impeccably in everything that he did. There is a process led by Lord Justice Leveson and at that stage I think it is up to the Prime Minister to make up his mind what he wishes to do.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, surely it would be absurd to have two inquiries going on at the same time. The order that the Prime Minister has announced seems entirely sensible, given that the parliamentary inquiry can then follow the evidence that is given to Leveson. However, is there not a wider issue here? Does the Leader of the House recall that last week, when we debated this issue, the Minister who replied, who is now sitting next to him, said that there was all-party consensus on my proposal that politicians of any party should be taken out of the role of deciding on media bids? Then on the “Today” programme on Tuesday morning, the leader of the Opposition specifically rejected that proposal and said that he intended to continue with the discredited system. Can we urge Mr Miliband to think again on this issue, for is it not the case that there will always be a suspicion of conflict of interest if politicians take decisions about media companies which they—we—have done so much to woo? It is a clear conflict of interest, and it should be stopped.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for very much supporting the position of the Prime Minister. Many others have taken on this question of having two parallel inquiries going on at the same time. Like him, I am convinced that we have made the right decision.
As for his specific question, the House will know that my noble friend Lord Fowler is pretty much pre-eminent in this House and elsewhere with his expert knowledge on this subject. I cannot speak for the Leader of the Opposition, but my advice to the noble Baroness is that she ought to bring to his attention the words of my noble friend Lord Fowler, and he might change his mind.
Lord Richard
My Lords, perhaps the Leader of the House can help me. I do not understand the Statement that he has just made. He says that there is a process and the process should be followed. What is the process? The process is that evidence was given to Lord Justice Leveson; Lord Justice Leveson has said he is not going to decide the issue as far as Mr Hunt is concerned. It is astonishing for the Leader of the House to say that it should go in front of Lord Justice Leveson when Lord Justice Leveson has just said that he does not want it to come in front of him.
What is the object of the exercise? Is it that Mr Hunt should give his evidence to Lord Justice Leveson, and the Prime Minister should look at it and say, “I am satisfied with that so we will not do anything else”, or alternatively say, “Something may be wrong here”, and then perhaps he will refer it to somebody else? The fact of the matter is that Lord Justice Leveson cannot resolve the issue. For the noble Lord to come here and say, “There is a proper process and the process is Leveson”—as indeed the Prime Minister did in the House of Commons—is wrong. There is a process and the process is to use Sir Alex Allan: that is what he is there for; that is what he is set up to try to do. With great respect to the Leader of the House, I do not understand what the Government are playing at.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is quite deliberately misunderstanding the position and misunderstanding what the Prime Minister has said. An allegation was made at the Leveson inquiry. It is entirely right and proper that the Secretary of State should be able to go and give evidence on the same terms and by the same method as those who have accused him of wrongdoing.
Incidentally, the decision on whether to refer the case to Sir Alex Allan is a decision for the Prime Minister. He can make that decision whenever he wants. He has suggested that he will make that decision—or take action, if he believes there was any wrongdoing—following the evidence being made public in the Leveson inquiry. The Leveson inquiry is a proper inquiry where, as I pointed out, evidence will be taken under oath and there will be cross-examination of the witnesses by barristers; in other words, the evidence that has been given already will be properly tested. That is entirely appropriate and there is no confusion at all between the two issues.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, the Prime Minister has said that he will await the evidence given by Mr Secretary Hunt to the Leveson inquiry. That may or may not be a rational stance to take. I take very much on board what the noble Lord, Lord Richard, says. It is outside the remit of the Leveson inquiry to adjudicate upon that matter. Putting that aside, perhaps I may ask this pertinent question of the Leader of the House. When the time comes for the Prime Minister to decide whether or not to refer this matter to Sir Alex Allan as a matter of ministerial discipline, will the Prime Minister be acting in a political capacity or a quasi-judicial capacity? If I may be allowed the luxury of a supplementary question, will the Prime Minister be regarding himself as acting in a judicial or a political capacity?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, in that event, the Prime Minister will be acting as Prime Minister. He will decide whether to take action directly himself—or not to, because he believes there is no evidence—or to refer the matter to Sir Alex Allan.
Lord Gilbert
My Lords, is it not clear from the Prime Minister’s Statement that the Government have now abandoned the Secretary of State’s claim that the Permanent Secretary authorised what was going on? The word “authorised” did not appear once in the Prime Minister’s Statement—and I was listening very carefully. The Leader of the House cannot hope to slither away and say, “What is the difference because the Permanent Secretary is supposed to have said that he was content?”. There is a difference between authorising something and being content with it. Authorising has to do with things ex ante; content has to do with things ex post. When was the Permanent Secretary first made aware of these activities?
My second question is about Sir Alex Allan, who seems to have one of the best sinecures going—in fact, I might put in for it myself. Has it ever occurred to this Government to ask Sir Alex Allan whether he considered it appropriate for him to consider this matter and, if so, what response did they get?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, on the latter part of that question, I am not aware of any conversations having taken place. Incidentally, there is no way that I could slither away from anything in this House, particularly when asked by the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert. The Permanent Secretary has said that the content and extent of Adam Smith’s contact with News Corp were,
“without authorisation, and were contrary to the clear requirements set out”,
by both himself and the Secretary of State. He has said that he was “aware” of and “content” with the arrangements that were made initially.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, whatever the outcome of the present episode, does my noble friend the Leader agree that in future it must be absolutely clear that when a Secretary of State and his department are considering such a bid, all contact between the department and an interested party must first be through permanent civil servants; secondly, it must be properly authorised; thirdly, it must be properly recorded; and fourthly, it must be of a formal nature only? Does he also agree that it must be clear that political advisers should not be involved in such contacts in any circumstances, nor should such contacts be marked by the informality and appearance of partiality that marked the e-mails that have recently been released, and that guidance to that effect should be issued formally as quickly as possible?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend makes a very helpful intervention. Of course, we can all use the benefit of hindsight and see that things were not done in an appropriate way. That is why the Prime Minister, as early as last week, asked the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, and the Head of the Civil Service, Sir Bob Kerslake, to write to all departments and Ministers,
“clarifying the rigorous procedures that departments should have in place for handling cases of this nature”,
so that suspicion does not fall on departments, Ministers and their special advisers.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, when the Leader of the House was replying to my noble friend Lady Royall, he kept asking—I have to say, in a slightly excitable way—“What is going on? What is going on?”. It is very simple. It is the enforcement of the Ministerial Code. That is what we on this side of the House—and, I think, many Cross-Benchers—are very concerned about. The fact is that the Prime Minister tried to refer this to Lord Leveson. Does the Leader of the House agree with Lord Leveson that it was inappropriate for the Prime Minister to try to refer this matter of ministerial discipline and the Ministerial Code to Lord Leveson, which is not within his remit, as the original Statement clearly showed? That is the first point.
The second point is that the special adviser says that the Secretary of State knew nothing about his contacts. That may be so and no doubt an investigation will show whether or not that is correct. Notwithstanding that, paragraph 3.3 of the Ministerial Code—which is what we are talking about—is clear. It states:
“The responsibility for the management and conduct of special advisers, including discipline, rests with the Minister who made the appointment”.
Mr Hunt made the appointment. The special adviser’s contraventions were so serious that he has had to resign. Should the Secretary of State not have had mechanisms in place for discharging his very specific responsibility for the “management and conduct” of his special adviser and, if he did, what were they?
Lord Strathclyde
I will tell the noble Baroness exactly what is going on here. These are the cheapest and most vulgar political attacks on my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, whose evidence has not been heard at all. The noble Baroness asked about Lord Leveson’s statement. What did Lord Leveson say? He said:
“I have seen requests for other inquiries and investigations and, of course, I do not seek to constrain Parliament, it seems to me that the better course is to allow this Inquiry”—
that is, his inquiry—“to proceed”. That was done, and the Secretary of State will be able to give evidence to that inquiry in due course. When we have all heard the evidence, it may be that many noble Lords who have spoken today will be eating their words. As to the possible lack of oversight of the special adviser, the special adviser has resigned, having made a fulsome apology and explaining that the action that he took was way beyond the authority given to him by the Secretary of State.
Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon
My Lords, the Prime Minister has used this rather particular phrase, that there has been no “grand bargain”, twice now—once at the weekend in his press comments and once in the Statement. Will my noble friend assure us that when the Prime Minister says that there has been no grand bargain, he includes that there have been no small bargains either?
Lord Wills
Can the Minister explain what he understands by the extent of the responsibility of a Minister for his special advisers?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, how can I possibly answer that at this stage? I have not seen any of the evidence any more than the noble Lord has.
Lord Wills
I was not asking specifically in relation to this case; I was asking generally. What does the Minister understand by the extent of a Minister’s responsibility for his special advisers?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that is clearly set out in the Ministerial Code. In this instance, one would expect a special adviser to stick to the agreements and instructions they had been given by their Secretary of State.
Lord Armstrong of Ilminster
My Lords, as the Leader of the Opposition has referred to what I said about this matter, I should like to clarify that if I may, and ask the Leader of the House whether he agrees with it. I have said that the Prime Minister is responsible for decisions about ministerial conduct and for deciding whether a Minister has or has not breached the code. If he has, or thinks he has, sufficient evidence to justify a decision not to refer the matter to Sir Alex Allan, or to confirm the Minister in his position, he is entitled to do that. If he has doubt, he can ask Sir Alex Allan for advice. He is not obliged to take that advice, but clearly the advice will be very important.
In this case, as I understand it, the Prime Minister takes the view that the evidence that comes before Lord Justice Leveson will be more pervasive, extensive and comprehensive than anything that Sir Alex Allan could get. Lord Justice Leveson is not being asked to take the decision about the Ministerial Code. As I understand it, it is being suggested that the evidence given to his inquiry, elicited by questions from counsel and by all the other procedures, is likely to be more comprehensive and more reliable, since it will be evidence taken on oath, than anything that Sir Alex could achieve. However, Lord Justice Leveson is quite right in saying that he cannot take the decision or give advice about the Ministerial Code. The only person who can take a decision is the Prime Minister, and if he wants advice, he will have to ask Sir Alex Allan.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is good to hear the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, put his question, and the tone in which he did so will no doubt calm the atmosphere of the House. He described the situation entirely correctly. This is a decision for the Prime Minister. When it comes to disciplining Ministers, the Prime Minister is entitled to make that decision in any way that he wants. Equally, the decision that he has taken, as the noble Lord has laid out, is that the evidence laid before Leveson—in the manner and way in which it will be laid—will be more authoritative and ultimately gain more public acceptance if it is done publicly at the Leveson inquiry rather than secretly by Sir Alex Allan, although I have no doubt that he would do it extremely well. Finally, I agree that Lord Justice Leveson himself cannot make the decision under the Ministerial Code; he has no locus to do so. The Prime Minister will no doubt be able to make a decision once the evidence has been given, and that decision is entirely up to him.
Lord Borrie
My Lords, following the very helpful intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, is it not the case that there is no way—as and when the Minister makes his appearance at Lord Justice Leveson’s inquiry—that the Prime Minister can ensure that the questioning by counsel will bring out all the vital matters that relate specifically to the question of whether the Ministerial Code has been broken? The Leveson inquiry is a general inquiry into the relationship between the media, politicians, the police and so on and does not specifically address the question of whether the Ministerial Code has been broken. Are the Government therefore not relying on the matter coming out incidentally at the inquiry? The Prime Minister is not even prepared to wait until Lord Justice Leveson gives his report. Like the rest of us, he is simply going to watch what is said on television and so on, which may or may not reveal very much. What is really needed is a specific inquiry on whether the Ministerial Code has been broken.
Lord Strathclyde
I reiterate that Lord Justice Leveson is not being asked to take a view on whether the Ministerial Code has been broken. We started all this because allegations have been made in the Leveson inquiry. Surely it is only right and proper for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to be given the opportunity to deal with those allegations by providing whatever evidence he wants. He has laid out the kind of evidence that he will provide, and I believe that it will entirely restore his reputation. During the course of that evidence-taking—and let us remember that this is all about the relationship between politicians and the media—the Prime Minister can take a decision on whether he believes that the Ministerial Code has been broken, and whether to instruct or invite Sir Alex Allan to look into it, or whether to believe that no further action needs to take place. I very much hope that it will be the latter.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, if the leader of the Opposition was playing party politics with his question, what on earth was the Prime Minister doing with his Statement? I have three questions for the noble Lord. First, how does he reconcile what he said about the Leveson inquiry with Lord Justice Leveson’s refusal to get drawn into the Hunt affair? Is it not the case that the Statement that the noble Lord has quoted came at a rather earlier stage of the proceedings? Secondly, the noble Lord has said that the Secretary of State took independent advice when he did not need to, and acted upon it. However, is it not the case that Ofcom advised him to refer the matter to the Competition Commission, which he did not do? Finally, the noble Lord has said that the Permanent Secretary approved the special adviser’s role as a conduit between the Secretary of State and the Murdoch organisation. However, he was decidedly shifty about this when questioned on it by the Public Accounts Committee. The noble Lord said that the Permanent Secretary was aware of the special adviser’s role and was content. Does the noble Lord agree that that is not the same as giving approval?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the Prime Minister was invited to make a Statement by the leader of the Opposition, who was clearly trying to play politics. I do not want to offend the noble Lord, who is a distinguished Cross Bencher, but those of us better versed in the means of politics can see what is going on utterly clearly; it is as clear as daylight. I am under the impression that everything the Secretary of State was required to do during the bid process, he did. He accepted an offer of undertakings by BSkyB, but he referred them as well; and of course when the undertakings were themselves withdrawn, the full referral then took place. As for the role of the Permanent Secretary, I think that I have said everything I can possibly say about that.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the time has come for us to move back into the other debate.
Business of the House
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Lord Strathclyde
That Standing Order 40(1) (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Tuesday 1 May to enable the resumed debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Richard http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/26702 to be taken as first business, and that no Oral Questions be taken on that day.
Draft House of Lords Reform Bill
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I begin by paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Richard. I know that I do so on behalf of the whole House. I reiterate the Government’s thanks to him and to all noble Lords who served on the Joint Committee. Perhaps the noble Lord feels like a juror who has sat on an especially long, complex and lurid trial, and he may wish to put in a plea to be excused from any further service to the House of this nature; I am sure that we would readily accept it.
With me and a few others, he shares enormously long experience in debating these issues on the Floor of this House. He was right when he said at the end of his speech that the time has surely come for Parliament to decide once and for all what we want to do.
The Joint Committee has produced a detailed and comprehensive report which will undoubtedly leave its mark on the Government’s final proposals. The report is a milestone in a process that began in 1997, shortly after Mr Blair first described this House as an affront to democracy, and which led to the enactment of the House of Lords Bill in 1999. Since then, Labour in government sought to find a policy for the second phase of House of Lords reform, since when the future of this House has been hanging in the balance. During that period we have seen a royal commission in 2000, a first White Paper in 2001, a Joint Committee in 2002-03, a Green Paper in 2003, a second White Paper in 2007, a cross-party working group in 2007-08 and, finally, a third White Paper in July 2008, with, during that time, also votes in the House of Commons. Following the general election in 2010, this coalition Government established a further cross-party committee and went on to publish for the very first time a draft Bill alongside a White Paper in May last year, and that is the Bill which has now been subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by the Joint Committee.
That chronology alone should serve to demonstrate that the search by successive Governments for consensus on a second phase of reform of this House has been very nearly as exhaustive as the Joint Committee’s report. Although it may have proceeded in fits and starts, the broad parameters of those discussions have remained constant for some time. Indeed, the central elements of the Government’s draft Bill—the scaffolding, so to speak—are derived from the accumulated wisdom acquired through cross-party deliberations over the past 13 years. In the end, however, there is only one way to test whether consensus on the second phase of reform of this House exists or can emerge, and that is to introduce a Bill and then to allow Parliament to take a view. By publishing a draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny, the Government have taken the first step in that process. If a Bill to change the composition of this House is included in next week’s Queen Speech, it will be in Parliament that we establish whether the consensus which the Government believe exists can be drawn upon to take the Bill forward and on to the statute book. After all, is that not what Parliament is for?
Today is an opportunity for the Lords members of the Joint Committee to elaborate on the conclusions they reached in the course of the pre-legislative scrutiny, and for other Members of the House to comment on those conclusions with a view to informing the Government’s deliberations as we consider how best to adapt our proposals. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, has been frank that his chairmanship was a far from simple task. The issues around reform of your Lordships’ House have been vigorously contested over the years and it is no surprise that there were robust debates and differences of opinion among the members of the committee. Those culminated in an alternative report, to which no doubt some noble Lords will refer.
It is none the less the case that by a majority the Joint Committee agreed a report that lends support to many of the central elements of the Government’s initial proposals, and the Government welcome that. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, has already addressed some of those in his opening speech. Most importantly, the Joint Committee’s report concurs with the Government’s view that a reformed second Chamber should have a strong electoral mandate, that 80 per cent of Members should be elected under the STV system for 15-year non-renewable terms and that 20 per cent of Members should be appointed, with reserved places for the Lords Spiritual. Of course, the devil is in the detail—it always has been—but that is what the parliamentary process, of which the pre-legislative scrutiny is the first stage, is for.
We have a second Chamber in order to keep the Executive in check, and the Government believe that a democratic mandate obtained through direct elections would enhance the House’s ability to perform this function. If anyone has anything to fear from the proposed reforms, it should be the Executive, not least because it is likely that with elections by PR there would never be an overall majority for the Government in a strengthened upper House.
The Joint Committee shares the view that the election of 80 per cent of a reformed House will make the House more assertive. Intriguingly, however, it concludes that a more assertive House would not enhance Parliament’s overall role in relation to the activities of the Executive. I should be interested to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Richard, or from other members of the committee who are due to speak today why they reached that particular view.
The Joint Committee concurs with the Government that the reformed House should be much smaller than the current House of Lords, but recommends a House of 450 Members rather than the 300 proposed in the draft Bill. The committee appears to have been persuaded by witnesses who suggest that 300 Members might be insufficient to carry out the current functions of the House. Some of those who gave evidence also introduced a distinction between full-time and part-time Members. The Joint Committee went on to recommend that appointed Members should not have to attend as frequently as elected Members and appears to justify the 450 figure on that basis. Of course, the Government will consider carefully the committee’s recommendations on the size of a reformed House, but I invite those who served on the committee to elaborate on the arguments for the specific figure of 450, their comparison with today and the expectations that they propose in respect of attendance.
For my part, I am not clear what is meant by full and part-time membership of a reformed House. A significant proportion of Members of the House today attend almost every sitting yet the current House is rightly described as a part-time House, most obviously because the House does not sit for long periods of the year. In other areas of our political system, such as local government, individuals manage to hold down a full-time political office, such as being the leader of a council, alongside other remunerated employment. I am not clear whether the Joint Committee envisages that only appointed Members would be able to maintain professional expertise elsewhere. Elections and expertise are not in themselves incompatible, as some Members of another place continue to remind us.
The Government welcome the Joint Committee’s support for our proposals that Members of a reformed upper House should no longer serve for life but for a single 15-year non-renewable term and that elections should take place in thirds at the same time as general elections. We are also pleased that the Joint Committee endorsed our proposal for elections to be held by a single transferable vote and we will examine its argument in favour of the STV system used in New South Wales as an alternative to the STV system proposed in the draft Bill. The Government and the Joint Committee are also agreed that there should be no change to the powers and functions of the two Houses.
The Joint Committee argue that the election of 80 per cent of Members will make this House more assertive and affect the balance of power between the Houses in favour of the upper House, even if its formal powers remain the same. However, a majority of the committee considered that the existing conventions and other pillars on which Commons primacy rests would suffice to ensure its continuation, and that therefore Clause 2 of the draft Bill may be unnecessary. Clause 2 was included in the draft Bill in order to put beyond doubt our intention that the House of Commons should retain its primacy. We note the committee’s warning that Clause 2 could lay the conventions governing the relationship between the two Houses of Parliament open to judicial intervention, and its insistence that no provisions in the Bill should afford such opportunities in a manner inconsistent with Article 9 of the Bill of Rights. The Government agree with the committee that the conventions governing the relationship between the Houses cannot be legislated for and will, inevitably, continue to evolve.
I observe in passing that some Members of the House, who have been most vociferous in their concern about securing the primacy of the House of Commons, are the very same Members who have recently urged us to break with convention and challenge the financial privilege of another place.
On the Parliament Acts, which the noble Lord, Lord Richard, raised, the Joint Committee received evidence casting doubt on whether the 1911 Act would apply once the House had been reformed. The committee opted to leave that evidence from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, to speak for itself. Let me be clear: we produced a draft Bill on the basis that the Parliament Acts will continue to apply to a reformed House. We believe that they are well understood and would provide the backstop guaranteeing the primacy of the House of Commons. None the less, we shall consider carefully the evidence given to the Joint Committee by two distinguished Members of this House.
The Joint Committee’s report concludes by recommending that, in view of the significance of the constitutional change brought forward for an elected House of Lords, the Government should submit the decision to a referendum. The committee argues that otherwise there would be no opportunity for the electorate to provide a mandate for these proposals. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, when he winds up—and if not him then other members of the committee present today—will elaborate on the reasoning for this and set out why they concluded that the reforms to the composition of the House proposed in the Bill merited a referendum, bearing in mind that the 1999 reforms that produced the current composition of the House were not endorsed in that way. It is worth reminding the House that at the last general election, the manifestos from the three main parties were remarkably similar, whereas this was not true in 1997.
I also invite noble Lords to explain how the committee envisaged that a post-legislative referendum might work; what kind of question might be put to the electorate; and when it should take place. I particularly hope that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition will seize the opportunity to set out her party’s approach to these matters, not least because it endorsed the principle of a referendum in its last manifesto. I should also like to hear her objections in detail to the Government’s initial proposals which, as many noble Lords pointed out, bear a passing resemblance to those drawn up by Mr Straw in 2008. To many of us, the Labour Party always appears to be in favour of reform but never quite follows through. I very much look forward to hearing the noble Baroness on this point.
The Joint Committee made valuable observations and recommendations in a number of other areas, notably in proposing an alternative transition arrangement and in recommending a per diem allowance in lieu of a salary for transitional Members, and potentially for appointed Members. I will not set out all those areas now, trusting that other noble Lords will touch on them in the course of the debate.
It will be pointed out rightly that the Joint Committee did not agree with everything that the Government proposed, and that there were considerable differences of opinion within the committee. However, it should be clear from what has been said thus far that there are very considerable areas of agreement between the Government and the majority of the committee. I noted at the outset that we had embarked on this process in order to explore whether a consensus existed on the second phase of reform of the House. The Joint Committee’s report encourages us in the view that it does.
We have not yet reached the final decisions on the Government’s proposals and will therefore consider carefully the Joint Committee’s recommendations, as well as the House’s response to the recommendations expressed in today’s debate. Although we may not in the end agree with all the answers that the Joint Committee and individual noble Lords offer, much of the value of the process will have lain in throwing up the right questions to the Government and, in the course of the debate, to the Joint Committee.
Lord Elton
Will my noble friend tell the House what he means by “consensus”?
Lord Strathclyde
A consensus will be the majority in the House of Commons that passes the Bill. I will add, for noble Lords who need tutoring, that if there is no majority in the House of Commons, no Bill will come to this House.
Arrangement of Business
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I promised I would come back to the House after a short debate after Questions to explain how we would deal with the debate on the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, on Monday. Those of us who were here will have realised that the House wished to sit not just on Monday but on Tuesday so as to complete the debate without going into the small hours of Tuesday morning. I am delighted to inform the House that we will sit as normal on Monday at 2.30 pm. After Questions the debate will begin and after a named speaker the debate and the House will adjourn, which I hope will mean that we do not need to sit into the small hours of Tuesday morning. The House will meet at 10 am on Tuesday morning and we shall complete the business in time for Prorogation to take place at 1.30 pm. I know the House is extremely thinly attended at the moment, but I hope that it will feel that this is an entirely sensible way to go and that it will be pleased that we have given plenty of time for this debate to be completed.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Does that mean that there will be advice on the amount of time Members can take during the debate?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am happy to give advice or for the Chief Whips to give advice on a rough timetable so that we can complete it by, say, 11 pm or midnight on Monday. Of course, any guidelines will be advisory and not mandatory, and that is how it should be. I think there was an impression this morning that I was somehow trying to stop debate on this subject. I am really not; I am very happy for there to be full debate on it.
Arrangement of Business
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Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, while we have the Leader of the House with us, I wondered if he would explain to the House the arrangements that will be in place on Tuesday for Prorogation, which I know is a matter of interest to all. While I have the opportunity, would the noble Lord also give fair consideration, if we go late on Monday in debating House of Lords reform, to enabling the closing speeches to take place on the Tuesday morning before we prorogue? I have in mind that, with 63 speakers already identified, things might go rather late and, given the importance of the subject, I am not sure that that is what the House would prefer.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the opposition Chief Whip is clearly in playful mood.
Lord Strathclyde
Noble Lords have not heard what I have said yet. I will demonstrate how playful the noble Lord is being. We had of course agreed in the usual channels that we would have a day’s debate. I am a bit surprised to hear him today suggest that there should be more time. It is of course perfectly well precedented for us to have over 50, or even 60, speakers in a day. The further two days that we have given are also now well known; a number of Peers have already put their names down to speak then. They will be on Thursday 10 May and Monday 14 May. So over the next three weeks we have three whole days to debate your Lordships’ House, which must be enough.
Next Tuesday, of course, is 1 May. That is the day when traditionally members of the people’s party go marching and waving flags, and I am sure they will be doing so in Brighton. It is also, I am led to believe, the date of the ancient fertility rite when perhaps even Members of this House dance around maypoles, though I am sure that will not include me. The noble Lord is right that it is extremely likely that the House will prorogue on that day, and we will make a further announcement when we have completed the passage of the Sunday trading Bill. I hope that the House feels that there is more than enough time to discuss the future of your Lordships’ House. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, whose debate it is, is trying to get in, so perhaps I will give way to him.
Lord Richard
My Lords, I say to the noble Lord the Leader of the House that I am not in a playful mood about this. If we have 63 speakers down now for the debate on Monday, which could well be 70 or even more by the time that the debate starts, it is quite wrong to expect the House to deal with that issue, the Bill and the report on the Bill in a debate that could perhaps finish at 2 am or 3 am. That is not the way in which it should be done. In my view, which I urge the House to consider—properly, not frivolously—we should adjourn at a normal hour on Monday, come back on Tuesday and continue the debate. Prorogation can easily take place at the conclusion of a normal day’s debate on Tuesday just as easily as it could take place earlier.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord thinks like that. Earlier this week, we suggested to the Opposition that we could start the debate this afternoon. On Monday, when I made a short business statement about today, my noble friend Lord Tyler prudently sought an assurance from me that the House might sit later than our target rising time next Monday; in fact, he went further and assured me that there would be great enthusiasm in your Lordships’ House to go through the night if necessary on this issue. I know that my noble friend was making a joke, but the fact that there are 63 speakers should really not in any way stop us from dealing with this issue on one day on Monday, as is extremely well precedented.
Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I rarely press a second time in situations like this. The noble Lord is right that there was a suggestion that we could consider this matter today. I saw the early version of the forward business and took the view that the Sunday trading Bill may well take a little longer than business managers opposite believe to be the case; I may be wrong, but I may not. Although the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, may suffer from bouts of insomnia from time to time, I try to control mine, and it is in the House’s best interest at least to consider these matters at a time when all of us in your Lordships’ House have a reasonable opportunity to participate properly.
I urge the noble Lord the Leader to be slightly more flexible in his approach to this. He is known for his flexibility and generosity of spirit. While 1 May is certainly a day that we all enjoy celebrating in different ways, the House might enjoy having some extended opportunity to listen to the arguments on House of Lords reform.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I strongly support the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and what has just been said. There is no reason at all why this House should not debate on Tuesday. I have attended many Prorogation ceremonies in this House, having come down the Corridor from another place, that have taken place at 4 pm, 5 pm or 6 pm. There is ample precedent for that and no reason for it not to happen. The facilities of the House will already be paid for—that was an excuse for our not sitting last week—and it would mean that there was ample time to have a civilised debate during civilised hours. It does nothing for the reputation of this House if we sit until 2 am, 3 am or 4 am; frankly, that is an insult to this House and to the wider community. This is a crucial issue on the future shape of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and it should be debated at civilised hours on Monday and, if necessary on Tuesday. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, deserves the support of the House in this matter.
Lord Strathclyde
I will give way in a moment because I am generous and flexible on these sorts of matters. When we announced that we were going to have two whole days of the Queen’s Speech devoted to discussing the future of this House, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton—so it has been drawn to my attention—tweeted to say that it was a sign of skewed government priorities to give so much time to it. Today, he asks for more time. Over the next two weeks, out of six sitting days, we will be debating the future of the House of Lords over three whole days.
Lord Strathclyde
I have said that I am going to give way in a moment. If the noble Lord continues like this, I will not.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I say to my noble friend Lord Cormack, that outside this House the general public may take the view that, in spending so much time on discussing the House of Lords when there are other things to debate in the Queen’s Speech and otherwise, we are already being very generous. Now I will give way to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the House. I wanted to clarify one thing. My understanding is that the two days of debate on the Queen’s Speech are on constitutional matters, not just on the future of the House of Lords. So those of us who want to raise devolution issues, the Mackay committee or any other constitutional matters could do so in those two days. It is not just confined to the reform of the House of Lords. I hope that the noble Lord the Leader of the House will confirm that.
Lord Low of Dalston
Can I also put it to the noble Lord the Leader of the House that his statement about there being two extra days during the debate on the Queen’s Speech to discuss constitutional matters, which may include the House of Lords, is not to the point? The fact that there will be two further days makes no difference to the number of speakers lined up to speak on the debate that is scheduled for next Monday on the report of the noble Lord, Lord Richard. Is the noble Lord the Leader of the House suggesting that some of us who have put our names down to speak on Monday should take them off the list and wait for a further opportunity on 10 May or 14 May? If that is not what he is suggesting, these two extra days on the Queen’s Speech will do nothing to reduce the overcrowding of the list of speakers who want to speak on Monday.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there will be an extra day added to the Queen’s Speech debate if an announcement is made in the Queen’s Speech that there will be a Bill on the future of the House of Lords. But, of course, the Queen’s Speech debate is one debate. Noble Lords will be able to raise the issue of the future of the House of Lords wherever they want but, for convenience, we have suggested that two days should be specifically set aside so that noble Lords can concentrate on the issue on those two days. I have announced those days.
I understand the issue that the noble Lord, Lord Low, raises. The point is that it is entirely well precedented to have over 60 speakers speaking in a major debate and completing it in one day. There is no reason why we should not be able to do so.
Lord Myners
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House let us know how many speakers would need to be on the list for next Monday for him to conclude that we could not complete the business in one day, as that would allow us to organise our affairs?
Lord Higgins
Could my noble friend simply explain, since we have not had an explanation and I do not understand the point, why we cannot debate it on Tuesday as well?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I have tried to say, first, that it is entirely well precedented to have 60 speakers in one day. Secondly, it is likely that we will prorogue on Tuesday, subject to the progress of business, although we will not be able to make an announcement on that until we have completed the passage of the Sunday Trading (London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games) Bill.
Lord Grocott
I warmly welcome the Leader of the House’s comment that we should not waste too much time in this House debating subjects that are of no interest whatever to people outside it. I put it to him that the solution is in his and the Government’s hands—that is, to drop the Bill.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is a kind and generous offer. I have already, and rightly, been kind and generous in offering as much time as I have. Of course, if a Bill is announced in the Queen’s Speech, it will be just the beginning of many debates over the many hours and days that we shall have, not just between now and the Summer Recess but possibly well after.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, the Leader of the House referred to the traditions of the House. Is one of those not that the Leader listens to the House? Around 10 speakers have now asked him to do something; none has supported him. In pursuance of the point of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, if Monday’s debate ends at 2 am or 3 am, 70 or 80 people—and the staff—will, for no particular reason, have to stay here, very tired, in the middle of the night to hear the closing speeches and get home afterwards. If they do not, they will have to scratch their names. Is this not a ridiculous position for the Leader to get himself into without any good reason? Will he not listen to the House?
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, if the Sunday trading Bill goes through without any great difficulties, will the noble Lord tell the House what time he is planning to hold the Prorogation on Tuesday?
Lord Strathclyde
I am unable to do that but we will be making an announcement shortly. I am glad that all my noble friends have been so helpful on this. The plain facts are these: if we had never had a debate in your Lordships’ House with 63 or 65 speakers, and had not managed to complete it in a day, I would completely understand what the House was saying. The point is that time and again we have had debates with even more than 63 or 65 speakers in a day. It is therefore perfectly well precedented to do this. The very significant point that my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern made is entirely right. None of us should pre-empt the Queen’s Speech, least of all me; but in the eventuality that there was an announcement, it was entirely right—and again this is well precedented by successive Governments—to put down the subjects of debate for the subsequent debate on the humble Address. We are doing nothing new, nothing adventurous and nothing dangerous, if I may say so. My noble friend Lord Forsyth is certainly not naive on these matters. If we are taking so much time today to discuss how much time we should devote to the debate on the Joint Committee report, one can only imagine what it would be like if we were ever faced with a Bill itself.
Lord Strathclyde
Before I conclude, can I just say that I know there is a great deal of interest in this subject. We have a system of discussing these issues within the usual channels. Would it not be better for us to use the usual channels? We thought we had an agreement until half an hour ago. Perhaps we should use the usual channels again to debate the matter further.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, perhaps I may raise a point that has not been made so far, which is that the debate is not to be time-limited for individual speakers. Therein lies the problem, because if noble Lords look at the Companion, they will find that they could speak for up to 15 minutes each, and—given the enthusiasm that there is about this subject—if noble Lords chose to speak for that length of time, the idea that we would rise at midnight, or even 2 am or 3 am, is fanciful. On that basis, we will be here well into Tuesday. Of course noble Lords must operate a certain amount of self-restraint, but even if they were to speak for only half the time, some seven and a half minutes, I calculate that they would still be here for nine or 10 hours. This is not sensible and I ask the noble Lord to think. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, “No time limitations”. I do not know why he said that; most people could make pithy effective speeches within four or five minutes, and then take part in the longer debate on the Queen’s Speech. That would be an effective way of dealing with this. I disagreed with what the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said; he is not in his place to defend his views, but it was none the less daft to suggest that we should not be time-limited. I suggest that we try to have time-limited speeches and finish at a sensible hour.
Lord Grenfell
My Lords, the noble Lord may recall his history of the other place in Edwardian times, when Arthur Balfour, who was rather used to making long and fanciful statements, was ejected from the prime ministership and went into opposition. He may recall the occasion on which Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, who had just become Prime Minister, said that Balfour tried to dazzle the House with his verbal gymnastics and studied eloquence. Henry Campbell-Bannerman dismissed him with the following two sentences:
“I say, enough of this foolery! It might have answered very well in the last Parliament, but it is altogether out of place in this”.—[Official Report, Commons, 12/3/1906; col. 992.]
I appeal to the noble Lord the Leader of the House to recognise that the specific report to be debated is one of such significance. A report of this importance rarely comes before the House. It is an insult to the people who worked for three months to produce the report on such a significant issue to have it debated right into the early hours of the morning. I fear—this may be what the Leader of the House has in mind—that a number of people will strike their names from the list because they will not be able to stay that late. That is a way of muzzling the House which is quite unacceptable.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I suggested a moment ago that we have a means of discussing these issues through the usual channels. I think that that is the most appropriate way. I was struck by something that the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, said. She said that Peers should be able to speak and make pithy and effective speeches. I quite agree. Sometimes during the course of the past half hour, I have felt that I was suggesting the slaughter of the innocents. If there really were so many speakers down for Monday, of course we would have given it two days a long time ago. No noble Lord has explained why we cannot have a debate on Monday with 63 speakers; we have done it many times. However, I am happy to discuss this with the usual channels, and when we have a clearer idea of when the Sunday trading Bill will complete its passage through Parliament, we will be able to make an announcement on Prorogation.
Parliament Square (Management) Bill [HL]
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, we are just passing my noble friend Lord Marlesford’s Bill, and it will then go to another place. However, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, that at the very highest level of our Government there is a great interest in what is happening in Parliament Square. There has been considerable improvement in recent months, but no stone is being left unturned—using legal means—to try to improve the situation. I hope that we can move on to whether the Bill do now pass.