Business of the House
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I am so pleased that the noble Baroness took the opportunity to ask me that question. I confirm that what she has just said is exactly right: from this Dispatch Box, Ministers are expected to speak on behalf of the whole Government. Interestingly enough, having just witnessed a slight disagreement about that in a Question to my noble friend Lord Freud, I think that he meant to say that the questions he was being asked were beyond the scope of the Question on the Order Paper, which would have been entirely in keeping with the spirit and practice of the House.
Business of the House
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debate on the motion in the name of Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury set down for today shall be limited to three hours and that in the name of Lord Newby to two hours.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, parliamentary-related business will prevent me being present for the second debate this afternoon, which in any case is very limited in both scope and time. Would my noble friend consider very carefully the need for us to have a major debate on the crisis in the eurozone?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I was present in the House when my noble friend raised this point yesterday. I am very sorry, as I suspect many noble Lords are, that they will not be able to hear my noble friend speak, with all his experience and knowledge on this subject. This is of course a matter for the usual channels and we shall give it the most urgent consideration.
Scotland: Referendum
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord McAvoy
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions the Prime Minister has had with the First Minister of Scotland regarding a referendum on Scottish independence since the Scottish Parliamentary elections.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the Prime Minister has had discussions with the First Minister of Scotland on a range of issues.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for his Answer—I think. Does he agree with me that one thing is now certain; there will be a referendum in Scotland on the issue of separation at some point in the future? The Government seem lost for a definitive policy on this issue. Does he agree that it is essential that such a referendum on separation be conducted in a fair and impartial manner, with everyone entitled to put their point of view without being attacked for holding a point of view? Finally, does he also agree that it was totally reprehensible for a First Minister of Scotland to use public resources to attempt to undermine an eminent professor who had expressed doubts about the principle of separation?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I understand that the First Minister of Scotland had to apologise to the Scottish Parliament last week for making that error. More fully, I totally agree with the noble Lord that if there were to be a referendum it should be fair and impartial. To that I would add another word—clarity. There is no purpose in having a referendum in Scotland unless the question is very clearly understood by the people of Scotland so that the result can equally be interpreted with clarity.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, could my noble friend confirm that privately the First Minister has been threatening government Ministers that if we constitute a legally conducted referendum campaign in Scotland, he will make it his business to boycott that referendum and to prevent the police and other services from seeing that it is carried out? Is the First Minister not getting a bit too big for his boots?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I cannot confirm to my noble friend Lord Forsyth that the First Minister of Scotland has been threatening UK government Minsters. If it were true, however, that he would seek to frustrate a referendum in Scotland that had been legally and rightly established by the Westminster Parliament, it would be the most extraordinary event. Surely the first person who should whoop for joy if there were to be a referendum on the issue of separation in Scotland should be the First Minister.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
Can the Government confirm whether they have conducted any research into the year-on-year implications for jobs in Scotland of investment decisions that might be affected by the prospect of a referendum and the prospect of independence? The First Minister talks of an independence referendum perhaps in 2015, with no certain date or timescale. Will the Government consider making representations to ensure that the uncertainty that that creates is minimised by bringing forward the date to as soon as possible?
Lord Strathclyde
The noble Lord brings a lot of experience to this whole subject. I am glad to say that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland himself has laid six—there could be many more—questions to the First Minister for Scotland on the whole issue of what independence means, so that we can have the clarity that I alluded to in the first Answer.
Lord Howarth of Newport
If a referendum on Scottish independence produced a yes vote, would it not then follow that the size of the House of Commons would be reduced and that the House of Commons would be weakened? What bearing does the noble Lord the Leader of the House think that that would have upon the relationship between these two Houses of Parliament, especially if there were to be an elected second Chamber?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I admire the way the noble Lord gets the question of an elected second Chamber into virtually every question he poses, but even for me that is far too hypothetical for me to join him.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
Does my noble friend accept that it is in the interests neither of Scotland nor of the United Kingdom for this issue to drift on unresolved throughout the rest of this Parliament? Is it not now time for the Government to take a decision not only on the future calling of a referendum—their proper role in this union—but on the proper information for the electors about what the consequences would be?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend on the question of information. As far as timing is concerned, it is true that doubts about Scotland’s future within the United Kingdom create uncertainty not just for the people of Scotland but for those who wish to invest, to trade, to do business and to live in Scotland. All these things need to be taken into account before a decision is taken on a referendum.
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova
My Lords, in the spirit of clarity, will the Leader of the House indicate whether the Government have a view on whether the Scottish Parliament can competently call a referendum on constitutional change in Scotland, and if so, what that view is?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the fundamental principle that we believe applies is that matters concerning the union of the kingdom are a reserved matter.
Lord Nickson
My Lords, in the tragic event that there was a referendum and the people of Scotland voted for a separate state, what is the Government’s view on what currency they should adopt? Is it a possibility that it might have to be the euro instead of sterling?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, certainly one of the questions that will be raised—and is continually raised—with the First Minister of Scotland, is what currency would exist within the British Isles if Scotland were no longer part of the United Kingdom. At this stage is it is very difficult to answer.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, is the First Minister of Scotland seeking to emulate Ian Smith or Robert Mugabe?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am not going to follow my noble friend down that route. However, these are important matters. Ultimately the people of Scotland will need to decide whether to remain part of the United Kingdom or to break up one of the most enduring partnerships and one that has suited the people of Scotland economically and culturally more than anything else I can think of.
House of Lords: Reform
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Grocott
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of their proposals for a reformed House of Lords of 300 Members, what they regard as an appropriate size for the House of Lords in the interim.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the Government’s policy is to work towards securing in the House of Lords a better reflection of the share of the vote secured by the political parties in the previous general election, as proposed in the coalition agreement.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, I really am sorry that the Leader of the House is unable to give a more specific Answer to the Question, because I am sure he acknowledges and understands, as I do, that there is a very widespread view right across this House, in all parties and in all parts of the House, that the present total membership of 826 and record daily attendances are getting us close to the point where the House is unsustainable. I appeal to him, given that he has frequently told us, in opposition and in government, that his job as Leader is not just to speak, as he quite rightly does, for the Government, but also to speak on behalf of the whole House. I therefore put it to him that he should say to his colleagues in government that until such time as there is an agreed process for reducing the numbers of people in this House, there should be no further wholesale intake of Peers.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am not at all surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, should come up with that. After all, the Labour Party is the largest party in the House of Lords, and I quite understand the political imperative to preserve that position. Since May 2010, 119 new Peers have been made up to this House, and nearly half of them were Labour Peers. The Government reserve the right, as the previous Government did, from time to time to refresh the Benches in the House of Lords. On the question of size, we now have a system of permanent retirement, and if any Peers are so discombobulated by the size of the House, they should immediately go to the Library, write their resignation and send it to the Clerk of the Parliaments.
Lord Palmer
Is the Leader of the House aware that there are currently roughly more than 450 committee slots? If we are to continue to revise legislation, how on earth can we do it with only 300 Members of the House?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, a Joint Committee of both Houses is looking at the proposal laid out in the draft Bill, including the numbers in the House. No doubt that committee will look carefully at the kind of question that the noble Lord has raised. But if the House was to be elected, it would clearly wish to use its resources in a very different way from the way in which we do currently.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, if the Government’s policy is that the composition of the House should reflect the result at the previous general election and that were a long-standing policy, surely the House would grow exponentially after every election. Is it not a ridiculous proposition? Given the appointments which have been made so far, are they not at variance with that declared policy?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, no is the answer to the last part of my noble friend’s question, but he is right that, if we do not fundamentally change this House, at the start of every new Parliament where there is a change in the Government the House would continue to increase. The Constitution Unit at UCL has done a useful piece of work examining this. On the current general election figures, if we were to put the policy into effect immediately, it would mean an increase of 82 Conservative Peers. I can tell the House that we are not about to announce 82 Conservative Peers.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, given the uncertainties as to whether the Government will achieve substantive reform in this Parliament, why do they not say that they will take over the Steel Bill?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the pre-legislative scrutiny in a committee of both Houses includes all of what is in the Steel Bill. I would have thought that the best thing to do would be to wait for the results of the Joint Committee before progressing on any further legislation.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, do the Government really intend that the composition of this House should reflect the votes cast at the previous election? If the Government mean that, will the noble Lord care to meet with me afterwards, because I have a little list in my pocket for the 24 Peers which should go to UKIP, whereas at the moment there are only two of us?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, those clever people at the Constitution Unit have suggested that, if there were no further change to the House and if the policy were to include the minor parties, UKIP would be entitled to 24 Members of this House. I can also tell the House that that is unlikely to happen any time soon either.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, does my noble friend the Leader of the House agree that one reason why the present House needs to be larger than a reformed House is to ensure at least a modicum of regional representation, given that in the present House roughly 40 per cent of Peers are from London and the south-east, which has only 25 per cent of the population, whereas only about 20 per cent of Peers are from the Midlands and north, which have 40 per cent of the population?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I have no reason to distrust the figures of my noble friend. Indeed, it is true that under an appointed system there are some parts of the United Kingdom that are less well represented than others. The other reason why we need a larger House at the moment is that this is a part-time, unpaid House. If it were elected, it would be full-time and paid.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, does not the vote that we had last Friday in this House indicate that there is a broad consensus across the House in favour of the provisions of the Steel Bill? Would it not be far better, therefore, to put this House in order, notwithstanding what might happen in the future? And did not the question of my noble friend Lord Marks help to illustrate the folly of the line down which my noble friend and the Government appear to be going?
Lord Strathclyde
I can assure my noble friend that I am in no doubt whatever as to this House’s views and its desire to be fully appointed, but that is not the policy of any of the major parties that stood at the last general election. We are continually urged to have pre-legislative scrutiny, and we have pre-legislative scrutiny which includes all the parts of the Steel Bill. Surely we should wait for the work of the Joint Committee to be completed before continuing on legislation.
Business of the House
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debate on the Motion in the name of Baroness Prosser set down for today shall be limited to three and a half hours and that in the name of Lord Knight of Weymouth to one and a half hours.
Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) (No. 2) Order 2011
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
To move that the draft orders and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.
Companion to the Standing Orders
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Williams of Elvel
To ask the Leader of the House who is responsible for ensuring that the provisions of the Companion to the Standing Orders are respected.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, as Leader of the House I have a particular responsibility to advise the House on procedure and order. However the Companion makes clear that because the House is self-regulating, the preservation of order and the maintenance of the rules of debate are the responsibility of the House itself, of all the Members who are present. It is open to any Member to draw the House’s attention to breaches of order at any time.
Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the House for that response. I am sure that he is absolutely right, but is he aware that during the passage of the Armed Forces Bill, at Report, the usual channels managed to stitch up a deal apparently in order to avoid Divisions at Report of that Bill, and postpone them to Third Reading? The deal transgressed not only the letter but the spirit of the Companion. Will he give us an assurance that that sort of deal will never happen again?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am well aware of the situation that arose on Report of the Armed Forces Bill. The reason why an agreement took place was so as to allow the Health and Social Care Bill Second Reading to be postponed from Tuesday 4 October to Tuesday 11 October. I think the whole House would have approved of that decision. These decisions were made by the usual channels, as I made clear, so as to help the House as a whole. I do not think there was any detriment in taking that decision.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
I speak as one who took part in the discussion about this. Was not the real reason for the decision on the Armed Forces Bill to accommodate the Conservative Party conference and the ability of Members of this House to attend that conference? Am I right in thinking that the same problem is going to arise next year, when this House will be recalled during the Tory Party conference? Will the noble Lord the Leader of the House look at the position for next year to ensure that the House’s business takes preference over that of the Conservative Party?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord from personal observation that there were very few Members of the House of Lords—of all parties— present at the Conservative Party conference. They were far more likely to be attending to their duties in your Lordships’ House. It is true that the Chief Whip has announced that the House will sit next year during the week of the Conservative Party conference, but this is in large part due to representations that have been made to me and others from all parts of the House that they would rather come back earlier in October than sit in September, as we did this year.
Lord Geddes
Will my noble friend confirm that there is no such person in this House as “the noble Minister”? There is “the noble Lord the Minister and “the Minister” but there is no such person as “the noble Minister”.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, if there is an agreement between the usual channels to breach the Companion, should we not have an arrangement whereby the agreement of the House is sought?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is an intriguing idea. I have very recently proposed in a paper to the Procedure Committee that, in tightening up the rules at Third Reading, we should think of mechanisms whereby the House itself agrees to them so as to give those decisions greater power.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that, if over a period of time the usual channels find it difficult to reach agreement or to carry the support of all Members of the House, a time may come when it is necessary to look at the establishment of a business committee for the House to take into account not only the Government and the Opposition but the Cross-Benchers, the Bishops and others within your Lordships’ House?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is true that there have been some difficulties in reaching usual channels agreement over the past 12 months, but there are some signs that that period of difficulty is coming to an end. My understanding from the government Chief Whip is that relations at the moment are extremely good. I think it is too hasty to say that we should throw away a system that has served the interests of the House and of the different political parties extremely well over a long period.
Lord Grenfell
My Lords, on the eve of the memorial service for the late Lord Ampthill, who passionately championed respect for the provisions of the Companion, I find the Question of my noble friend Lord Williams particularly apt. Does the Minister agree that those minded to abolish this House have a very special duty to ensure from now onwards that any lack of respect for the rules in a new Chamber is not excused by its elected Members on the grounds that they were not respected by the House that they have replaced?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, if a successor House were to be created, it would of course be up to that House to decide on its rules, how to manage its affairs, how to co-ordinate itself and, indeed, how to regulate itself. My role as Leader of this House is to make sure that the Companion is stuck to and that everyone is aware of the rules. However, as I said in reply to the original Question from the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, it is up to every Member of the House to play a part in that.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that an elected House would consist of Members who would actually want to go to the party conference, and is that not an added reason for keeping things as they are?
Lord Strathclyde
My noble friend has very cleverly introduced yet another subject. Of course, it would be entirely up to them whether they went to the Conservative Party conference.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, the whole House will understand that some of the difficulties that have arisen in usual channels and throughout the House as a whole have emanated from the fact that we have too much legislation and too much badly drafted legislation. We all agree—I am sure that the noble Lord will agree—that what we need is more pre-legislative scrutiny. At the moment we have five Bills in pre-legislative scrutiny. Does this mean that we will only have five Bills in the next Queen’s Speech?
Lord Strathclyde
The noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition reiterates an old saw. I can assure her that we have not been any more ambitious in this session than her party was in the first Session of the previous Government. There are a good number of Bills in pre-legislative Committee at the moment—the noble Baroness said there were five, I thought there might have been six—I am sure that there will be more, and equally sure that there will be more than five Bills when we get to the Queen’s Speech.
Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities) (Amendment) Regulations 2011
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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European Council
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, perhaps this might be an appropriate moment to repeat a Statement which has been made in another place by the Prime Minister on the European Council. The Statement is as follows.
“With permission, I would like to make a statement on recent developments in Libya, and yesterday’s European Council.
Yesterday in Libya, after 42 years of tyranny and seven months of fighting, the National Transitional Council declared the formal liberation of its country. Everyone will have been moved by the pictures of joy and relief that we saw on our television screens last night. From Tripoli to Benghazi, from Misurata to Zawiyah, Libyans now dare to look forward, safe in the knowledge that the Gaddafi era is truly behind them.
This was Libya’s revolution. But Britain can be proud of the role we played. Our aim throughout has been to fulfil the terms of the UN Security Council resolution, to protect civilians and to give the Libyan people the chance to determine their own political future. With the death of Gaddafi, they now have that chance.
The whole House will join me in paying tribute to our Armed Forces for the role they have played—over 3,000 missions, some 2,000 strike sorties, with one-fifth of the total strike sorties missions flown by NATO. As the Chief of the Defence Staff has written this morning, it has been,
‘one of the most successful operations NATO has conducted in its 62-year history’,
and I believe it is something the whole country can take pride in. The decision to intervene militarily, to place our brave servicemen and women in the line of fire, is never an easy one. We were determined from the outset to conduct this campaign in the right way, and to learn the lessons of recent interventions. So we made sure this House was provided immediately with a summary of the legal advice authorising the action. We held a debate and a vote in Parliament at the earliest opportunity. We made sure that decisions were taken properly throughout the campaign, with the right people present, and in an orderly way.
The National Security Council on Libya met 68 times, formulated our policy, and drove forward the military and diplomatic campaign. We took great care to ensure that targeting decisions minimised the number of civilian casualties, and I want to pay tribute to my right honourable friend the Member for North Somerset for his work on this. It is a mark of the skill of the RAF, the British Army and other coalition pilots that the number of civilian casualties of the air attacks has been so low.
The military mission is now coming to an end, and in the next few days, NATO’s Operation Unified Protector will formally be concluded. It will now be for Libyans to chart their own destiny, and this country will stand ready to support them as they do so.
Many learned commentators have written about the lessons that can be learnt from the last seven months. For our part, the Government are conducting a rapid exercise while memories are still fresh, and we will publish its key findings. For my part, I am wary of drawing some grand, overarching lesson, and still less to claim that Libya offers some new template that we can apply the world over. I believe it has shown the importance of weighing each situation on its merits and of thinking through carefully any decision to intervene in advance. But I hope it has also showed that this country has learnt not only the lessons of Iraq, but the lessons too of Bosnia. When it is necessary, legal and right to act, we should be ready to do so.
Let me turn to yesterday’s European Council. This European Council was about three things: sorting out the problems of the eurozone. promoting growth in the EU, and ensuring that as the eurozone develops new arrangements for governance, the interests of those outside the eurozone are protected. This latter point touches directly on the debate in the House of Commons later today, and I will say a word on this later in my Statement.
Resolving the problems in the eurozone is the urgent and overriding priority facing not only the eurozone members, but the EU as a whole, and indeed the rest of the world economy. Britain is playing a positive role proposing the three vital steps needed to deal with this crisis: the establishment of a financial firewall big enough to contain any contagion, the credible recapitalisation of European banks, and a decisive solution to the problems in Greece. We pushed this in the letter we co-ordinated to the G20 and in the video conference between me, Angela Merkel, Nicolas Sarkozy and President Obama last week. We did so again at the European Council this weekend and will continue to do so on Wednesday at an extra European Council meeting.
But ultimately the way to make the whole of the EU, including the eurozone, work better is to promote open markets, flexible economies and enterprise. This is an agenda which Britain has promoted under successive Governments and successive Prime Ministers, but it is now an agenda which the European Commission is promoting too. We have many differences with the European Commission, but the presentation made by the Commission at yesterday’s Council about economic growth was exactly what we have been pushing for. It drove home the importance of creating a single market in services, opening up our energy markets and scrapping the rules and bureaucracy that make it take so long to start a new business. Both coalition parties are pushing hard for these objectives. This may sound dry, but if we want to get Europe’s economies moving, to succeed in a competitive world, then these are the steps that are absolutely necessary. These are arguments which Margaret Thatcher made to drive through the single market in the first place, and which every Prime Minister since has tried to push. I am no exception. If the countries of the EU were as productive as the US, if we had the same proportion of women participating in the economy and were as fast and flexible at setting up new businesses, then we would have the same per capita GDP as the US.
The remainder of the Council was spent on the safeguards needed to protect the interests of all 27 Members of the EU. The Council agreed that all matters relating to the single market must remain decisions for all 27 member states and that the European Commission must,
“safeguard a level playing field among all member states including those not participating in the euro”.
This leads me directly to the debate we are having in this House later today. Members of my party fought the last election committed to three things: stopping the passage of further powers to the EU, instituting a referendum lock to require a referendum, by law, for any such transfer of powers from this House, and bringing back powers from Brussels to Westminster. All three remain Conservative Party policy. All three are in the national interest. In 17 months in government, we have already achieved two of the three: we have yielded no more powers to Brussels—indeed, the bailout power has actually been returned—and, of course, the referendum lock is in place. I remain firmly committed to achieving the third, which is bringing back more powers from Brussels.
The question tonight is whether to add to that by passing legislation in the next Session of this Parliament to provide for a referendum, which would include a question on whether Britain should leave the EU altogether. This was not our policy at the election and it is not our policy now. Let me say why I continue to believe that this approach would not be right, why the timing is wrong and how Britain can now best advance our national interests in Europe.
First, it is not right because our national interest is to be in the EU, helping to determine the rules governing the single market, our biggest export market, which consumes more than 50 per cent of our exports and which drives much of the investment into the UK. This is not an abstract, theoretical argument; it matters for millions of jobs and millions of families in our country. That is why successive Prime Ministers have advocated our membership of the EU.
Secondly, it is not the right time, at this moment of economic crisis, to launch legislation that includes an in/out referendum. When your neighbour's house is on fire, your first impulse should be to help him put out the flames, not least to stop the flames reaching your own house. This is not the time to argue about walking away, not just for their sakes but for ours. Legislating now for a referendum, including on whether Britain should leave the EU, could cause great uncertainty and would actually damage our prospects of growth.
Thirdly and crucially, there is a danger that by raising the prospect of a referendum, including an in/out option, we miss the real opportunity to further our national interest. Fundamental questions are being asked about the future of the eurozone, and therefore the shape of the EU itself. Opportunities to advance our national interest are clearly becoming more apparent. We should focus on how to make the most of this, not pursue a parliamentary process for a multiple-choice referendum.
Those are the reasons why I will not be supporting the Motion tonight. As yesterday's Council conclusions made clear, changes to the EU treaties need the agreement of all 27 member states. Every country can wield a veto until its needs are met. So I share the yearning for fundamental reform and I am determined to deliver it.
To those who are supporting today’s Motion but do not actually want to leave the EU, I say to you this: I respect your views. We disagree not about ends but about means. I support your aims. Like you, I want to see fundamental reform. Like you, I want to refashion our membership of the EU so that it better serves this nation's interest.
The time for reform is coming. That is the prize. Let us not be distracted from seizing it. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Baroness for the tribute she paid to the people of Libya who have fought so bravely over the course of the last seven months, and some for far longer, against the tyranny and dictatorship represented by Colonel Gaddafi. I also thank the noble Baroness for what she said about our Armed Forces and for commending the Prime Minister. I very much agree with what she said. I also agree that embedding change will take time and that the process will be long and difficult. We, the European Union and many others will be involved in that. Libya is an important country and we have been much involved with it. It is right that we should continue to help and support the National Transitional Council and the new regime, whenever that comes, for as long as they want us.
On the European Union, the noble Baroness began by saying there was no need for this House to replicate the debate happening today in the House of Commons. I agree with that, although I am sure that there will be an opportunity in the next 20 minutes or so of Back-Bench time to deal with some of these issues. The noble Baroness reminded us that the Labour Party is opposed to leaving the EU. She did not tell us about its line on joining the euro, but I am sure that that was an omission. The noble Baroness shakes her head, so I presume that means the Labour Party would not join at the moment. That is a good thing indeed.
The noble Baroness said that we needed to act together. I agree with that. It is the same reason why we are opposed to an in/out referendum. We need to act together. Major decisions are being taken about the single market—both this weekend and again on Wednesday—which is something that successive British Governments and British Prime Ministers have been championing since the days of Margaret Thatcher. The single market is an immensely important mechanism for us. The fact that the single market is not yet complete is something that should concern us; the fact that the European Commission now wishes to complete it is something that we should welcome enormously. I also agree that these decisions should be taken by the 27 member countries and not by a small group. The noble Baroness fears that we may be sidelined during the course of this process if there is a core eurozone caucus, for want of a better word. We would very much like to avoid that, and we are doing everything we can to bring that about.
The noble Baroness asked some specific questions, particularly about the amount of recapitalisation that has taken place in the banks and whether it is enough to ensure future stability. That was exactly what the ECOFIN meeting was about on Saturday. The Chancellor of the Exchequer spent 10 hours in the meeting to ensure that the system in place was proper and correct. As far as whether lessons have been learnt from previous bailouts, decisive action has been taken and it was right to do so.
Where I agree most with the noble Baroness is on growth. This has slowed in Europe and there are a number of structural reasons for that, such as bureaucratic centralisation. We will not get to grips with many of the financial problems without addressing the growth issues. That is why we support what the European Commission is doing on growth, particularly on completing the single market. What is also required is real political leadership. I am pleased that in this country at least, in the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor, we have a united leadership developing the way forward.
I will not join the noble Baroness in her praise of the Social Chapter. I take the view that all those things that the noble Baroness thinks are important are important, too, but they could just as well be decided in a British Parliament by British Members of Parliament and, indeed, British Peers.
The noble Baroness finished by saying that these are serious questions, which is right. The issue of Europe is always taken immensely seriously, not least in this House. I like to think that we always put the national interest first; that is one of the reasons why I am a member of this Government. These are extremely difficult and complicated times, and it is vital that we put the national interest first to get the solutions that we need.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord the Leader of the House’s question about the euro, I remind the House that it was my Government who decided not to go into the euro and that they did so in the national interest.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House accept my warm welcome for the extremely determined way in which the Prime Minister led this action with President Sarkozy? However, could he perhaps clear up one area that slightly baffles me—that is, the statement about not acting on the basis of any overarching principle? My understanding—perhaps the noble Lord will confirm this—is that we were in Libya, doing what we were, because we subscribed to the responsibility to protect people whose citizens cannot or will not be protected by their own Governments. That was something that we, with 191 other UN members, subscribed to in 2005. If that is correct but it is not an overarching principle, I am not sure that I would recognise one when I saw it.
Secondly, on Europe, it now sounds very likely—although the decision has not yet been formally taken—that there will be negotiations in an intergovernmental conference, and that this will probably be decided at the European Council in December. Is it not crucial that this country goes into such a conference with a positive agenda to secure all those points that the Prime Minister rightly made in his Statement about the primacy of the single market, the need to ensure that decisions are taken by the 27 member states and the need to protect our own position? A positive agenda will be needed to secure that, if action is also being taken to set up, for example, a restricted group of members in the eurozone to take certain decisions on economic and financial policy. Will the Minister confirm that the Government are now drawing up some positive points to make at that intergovernmental conference, and not focusing on a long list of the sort of points that, in 1974 and 1975, led to a pretty humiliating negotiation and not a single word being changed in any European treaty?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for his warm welcome to the Prime Minister’s discussions with the President of France on Libya. One can look at what happened in Libya in a variety of ways, including seeing it as following a great principle of defending the interests of civilians, which I regard as a noble principle. However, in his Statement this afternoon my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, “I am wary of drawing some grand, overarching lesson—still less to claim that Libya offers some new template that we can apply the world over. I believe it has shown the importance of weighing each situation on its merits; of thinking through carefully any decision to intervene in advance”. That is right. There were other important principles at work in Libya: the passing of the United Nations Security Council resolutions; the support of the Arab League and the neighbours of Libya; and the immediacy with which civilians were likely to be murdered on the streets of Benghazi. All played a part, so the Prime Minister is right not to see it as a template. The noble Lord is also right in saying that it is important that where civilian life is endangered, we should move swiftly to ensure that that is not the case.
I also agree with the noble Lord about the Government having a positive agenda on Europe. They do have a positive agenda, particularly as regards what he called the primacy of the single market, to complete all the provisions of the single market, of which there are directives outstanding that have a direct effect on and implication for British financial services, commerce and industry, particularly some of the financial directives, and to maintain these and many other things to be decided by the 27 member states. We are in a process of discussion and negotiation against a background of volatility—indeed, some financial turmoil—in the markets. It is important to get these decisions right.
Lord Newby
My Lords, on Libya, does the Minister agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that the important thing now is to secure the peace? Will he give an assurance to the House that the Government will give whatever support the Westminster Foundation for Democracy and other bodies in the UK request in order to help the new Administration in Libya to draw up a new constitution and move towards elections? On the EU summit, does he agree with me that the most worrying event of the weekend was the spat between the Prime Minister and the French President, which demonstrated the danger to the UK of being seen as irrelevant to the major decisions being taken in the EU? Will he therefore give the House an assurance that the Government are giving systematic consideration to ensuring that any moves towards greater common activities in the eurozone which have an implication for the UK will take place with the UK at the very least sitting at the table during those discussions and when those decisions are being made?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, on my noble friend’s first question, of course we are delighted that we are seeing a semblance of peace in Libya, and long may that continue; and of course we will do everything we can to support the growth of that stability and, indeed, in the longer term, of democracy. I have answered questions before on the Westminster Foundation, whose aims and objectives we fully support. We wish to see that body continue to function and to work not just in Libya but in many other countries as well. As far as the EU and the French President are concerned, I am not sure whether “spat” is the right word, but we think that we are in a position to explain to some of our European colleagues our viewpoint on what is happening in the eurozone and to underline the seriousness of it. In fact, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have said that it is not in our interests for the euro to founder; it is very much in our interests for it to succeed. I do not think that we are being sidelined. We are doing everything we can to explain and to get our colleagues to understand that we are playing a full part and—in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay—a positive part in the development of the EU.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I have just returned from the World Economic Forum in Jordan, where most of the Governments of the Arab League were represented. It is worth noting that they were all relieved and pleased that the Gaddafi era is over, as I am sure we all are. However, many of my interlocutors expressed concern—some publicly, some privately—about the way in which Gaddafi met his end. Their feeling was that if the changes in the Middle East are to become embedded, they have to be rooted in the rule of law. The rule of law would have meant that Gaddafi went on trial in an open trial which everybody could see, and was then subject to the sentence of a properly constituted court. Will the noble Lord the Leader of the House assure us that this is also the Government’s position and that extrajudicial killing—in the heat of the moment people in many parts of the world may at times have sympathy with it—is wrong in principle and that standing up for the rule of law is important, whoever is the victim?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is always good to hear from the noble Baroness first hand about her activities in Jordan and her discussing this with other Arab countries. I agree with the point that underlines her remarks. The UK was a strong supporter of the ICC and led the drive to refer the situation in Libya to the ICC in UNSCR 1970. We have always maintained that the ideal solution involved Gaddafi being arrested and standing trial in The Hague and getting to the truth of the many events that occurred over the course of the past 40 years. Ultimately, the fate of Gaddafi was in the hands of the Libyans. The process should have been rooted in the rule of law and we will certainly make sure that the NTC understands that. It is now for it to decide how it plans to investigate the events that led to Gaddafi’s death.
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, will my noble friend assure me that he is aware of the proposal that the 17 members of the eurozone should meet outside the Council of Ministers and decide among themselves by a majority upon economic policies that would affect this country, which they would then support as a bloc in the Council? Would such an arrangement constitute a substantial transfer of powers from this country such as to trigger a referendum?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not think that, as my noble friend explained his scenario, it would, because it would not necessitate a treaty change. My noble friend raises a question that we would not necessarily like to face, and at this stage we are not sure that it is something that we necessarily need to beware of. On Wednesday there is another European Council—an emergency Council—which will draw conclusions, and we will be in a far better position to see the outcome of these talks at that stage.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, I speak as someone who is a little wary of parliamentary procedures that lead directly from a petition to an automatic debate in Parliament, and would not have supported those procedures had I been in the Commons when they were decided. None the less, does the noble Lord agree that if a petition asks one House of Parliament to debate something and to express Parliament’s view, it rather destroys the point for all three party leaders to insist that Parliament should respond in a particular way? I would not have thought that that is the best way of discovering Parliament’s view. Secondly, in respect of a part of the Statement that I fully support and endorse, where the noble Lord reminds us that Parliament held a debate on the proposed conflict in Libya at the earliest opportunity, what does he think would happen if this were an elected House? Would this House—in the event of a proposition for armed conflict—also be required to express a view?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, says that he is suspicious—he did not quite use the words “new-fangled parliamentary processes”, but he might have done—of the role of e-petitions and of the Back-Bench committee of the other place that decided on what should be debated. I do not think that there is any real tension between that and the three party leaders taking a view. It may be that the Back-Bench committee thought that something was important to debate and the three party leaders took a different view. It is certainly a less tidy process, but it may be that people feel that by joining in these petitions they have debates brought to the Floor of the House. Those who signed up to this e-petition will no doubt be very pleased with its results—at least I hope they will be.
It is very tempting to get into long debates with the noble Lord about the role of a directly elected second House. I have no view as to whether a directly elected senate would wish to vote on whether we went to war. What the noble Lord did not ask, but what he meant, was about what would happen if those two bodies disagreed in some fundamental way. Many of these questions would be ironed out once an elected senate were in place and in a position to negotiate these matters with the House of Commons.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
Can the Leader of the House say whether Colonel Gaddafi’s second son and nominated heir is still alive and, if so, whether every effort will be made to capture him alive and to make him stand trial? Such a trial might cast a flood of light upon both the Lockerbie bombing and the murder of WPC Fletcher.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not know whether he is still alive but, on the basis that he is, our role would be to stick to UN Security Council Resolution 1973 and to protect civilians in Libya. We would certainly expect the Libyan regime—the NTC—to work within the rule of law; and if he were arrested he should be brought to trial so that we could find the answers to these questions.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
My Lords, will the Leader of the House possibly correct the attempts of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, to rewrite history? Will he perhaps remind her that the decisions on which countries joined the euro, and at which parities, were made well before the 1997 election? At that time, the decision by the Conservative Government not to join the euro was severely criticised by both John Smith and Gordon Brown.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is always good to hear my noble friend, and he has of course put the record entirely right.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that the talk in the Statement about scrapping EU rules and bureaucracy, bringing back powers to Westminster and reforming the EU generally is all just a dishonest red herring, because he will be aware of the requirement for unanimity among all 27 member states before a single comma can be retrieved from the treaties? Secondly, why does he yet again come up with the often-repeated propaganda that somehow millions of British jobs depend on our membership of the European Union? Can he tell us why a single job would be lost if we left the political construct of the EU? After all, EU countries sell us much more than we sell them, and Switzerland and 62 other countries have free-trade agreements with the European Union. If we are to continue these debates, can we please drop this obvious propaganda?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I usually admire the noble Lord’s questions but I cannot follow him on this occasion. On repatriating powers, we believe that an opportunity for the British Government to negotiate may well arise in a positive way. I say in the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that repatriating powers to the United Kingdom may well strengthen the whole EU. There is a clear role for the nation state. However, at the moment, we are at a very early stage and we do not know whether there will be a treaty change and, if there is, how big it will be, exactly what it will refer to and so on. I do not think that anyone should get overexcited about this, but any future treaty change will—partly because of the rule of unanimity—give us the opportunity to advance our national interests, which is of course what the Prime Minister and the Government will always wish to do.
Secondly, I cannot join the noble Lord in his attack on what he called propaganda about the single market. The single market is an immensely important part of British interests and the British economy. I will not list all the figures now. One reason to be on the inside is that all the countries that he mentioned did not have a say in writing the rules of the single market. One of the greatest advantages of being a member of the EU is that we are part of the process under which these rules are made.
Lord Lea of Crondall
The Prime Minister stated only a couple weeks ago, much to the annoyance of President Sarkozy, about the crisis that they—presumably, the eurozone—ought to sort it out. In a sense, I am responding to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit. Does the noble Lord the Leader of the House think that that is what the Prime Minister meant?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I must say that I am not entirely certain that I followed the noble Lord’s views. The eurozone is in an immensely difficult situation. There is a huge problem which will impact not just on eurozone countries but on our economy and perhaps even wider than that. It is up to them, I suppose, to sort it out, but we can all play a part in sorting it out because it is so important to all of us.
Business of the House
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Blencathra set down for today shall be limited to one and a half hours and that in the name of Lord Luke to three and a half hours.