Schools (Specification and Disposal of Articles) Regulations 2012
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Lord Strathclyde
That the draft orders and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.
Business of the House
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Lord Strathclyde
That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Tuesday 6 March to allow the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages.
European Council
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, this may be a convenient time to repeat a Statement on the European Council made in the House of Commons earlier this afternoon by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. The Statement was as follows:
“This Council focused on the measures needed to address the growth crisis in Europe and complete the single market. It also reached important conclusions on Somalia, Serbia and Syria. Let me take each in turn.
First, growth and jobs. This was the first European Council for some months not completely overshadowed by the air of crisis surrounding the eurozone. The problems in the eurozone are far from resolved and we need continued and determined action to deal with them. But the biggest challenge for Europe’s long-term future is to secure sustainable growth and jobs.
Ahead of this Council, Britain, along with 11 other EU member states, set out in a letter our action plan for growth and jobs in Europe. This was an unprecedented alliance involving countries from all across Europe, representing over half the EU population and a quarter of a billion people. It included our traditional partners on this agenda in northern Europe but it also included countries such as Poland, one of the largest in the EU, and countries such as Spain and Italy in the south of Europe, which previously had not prioritised this agenda.
Over the past year, we have frequently succeeded in inserting references to the single market and competitiveness into Council conclusions, and the Commission’s proposals have begun to reflect that. But what was encouraging at this Council was that an EU growth agenda, based around free trade, deregulation and completing the single market, received stronger and broader political support from Heads of State and Government than ever before. A whole series of concrete commitments to actions and dates by which those actions need to be taken were inserted into the final communiqué. Now it is vital that these commitments are fulfilled.
The reason why Britain so strongly insists on the completion of the single market is because of its huge potential for growth and jobs at home. The single market is the biggest marketplace in the world, with 500 million consumers. Removing barriers to trade in products has had a huge impact and, with one of the largest manufacturing sectors in Europe, Britain has benefited from that.
But the benefit can be even greater if the single market is completed in other areas where Britain has also great strengths. The first of these is services. Full implementation of the services directive could add 2.8 per cent to EU GDP within 10 years. Britain would stand to be one of the prime beneficiaries because, from financial services to legal services to accountancy, Britain has some of the leading companies in the world.
The Council also agreed to complete the digital single market by 2015. This could boost EU GDP by as much as €110 billion every year. Again, this could particularly help Britain with our strengths in digital technology and all forms of creative content, including film, television and online media.
The Council agreed a specific deadline to complete the single market in energy by 2014. This could add 0.8 per cent to EU GDP and create 5 million jobs. Again, many of these jobs will be in Britain, because we are a major producer and exporter of energy with the most liberalised market in Europe. The Council agreed there will be a special focus on trade, including trade deals with fast-growing parts of the world, at the next Council in June. Completing all open bilateral trade deals could add €90 billion to the EU economy, and a deal with the US would be bigger than all the others put together. Britain is one of the most open trading nations in Europe and that is why trade deals have a particular importance for us.
On deregulation, for the first time we got a specific commitment to analyse the costs of regulation sector by sector and a repetition of our call for a moratorium on new regulations for those businesses with fewer than 10 employees. Taken together, these measures represent a clear and specific plan for growth and jobs at the EU level and we must now ensure that Europe sticks to it.
Turning to wider international issues, on Somalia the Council welcomed the conference held in London last month and the important conclusions that we reached, cracking down on piracy and terrorism and supporting a Somali-led process for a new representative and accountable Government.
On Serbia, Britain has always been a strong supporter of enlargement of the European Union from eastern Europe to the countries of the western Balkans. This policy has clearly demonstrated success in embedding support for democracy, the rule of law and human rights across the continent, so I was particularly pleased that the Council granted Serbia candidate status. I have no doubt this decision would not have been possible without the courageous leadership of President Tadic. It was he who secured the arrest of Ratko Mladic, closing one of the darkest chapters in Serbian history. And it was he who took the brave decision to engage in a dialogue with the Kosovans.
It is also right to mention the leadership of the Kosovan Prime Minster, Hashim Thaçi. He, too, has been prepared to enter into constructive dialogue with Serbia. That decision has rightly been rewarded by the European Commission starting the process which can lead to a new contract between the European Union and Kosovo. This is the first important milestone on the long road for Kosovo to join the European Union.
Let me turn to the grave situation in Syria. I know the whole House will join me in welcoming the safe return of British photographer Paul Conroy, who escaped from Baba Amr last week. I spoke to him this morning and he described vividly the barbarity he had witnessed in that city. The history of Homs is being written in the blood of its citizens. Britain is playing a leading role in helping to forge an international coalition to do three things: first, to make sure there is humanitarian assistance for those who are suffering; secondly, to hold those responsible for this appalling slaughter to account; and, thirdly, to bring about the political transition which will put a stop to the killing. We must pursue all these goals at the same time.
On humanitarian assistance, Britain has already provided an extra £2 million to agencies operating on the ground to help deliver emergency medical supplies and basic food rations for over 20,000 people. But the real problem is getting that aid into the affected areas. Now that the Syrian Government have occupied Baba Amr, they have a duty to allow humanitarian access to alleviate the suffering they have caused. Britain will be working this week to secure a UNSC resolution which demands an end to violence and immediate humanitarian access. The longer access is denied, the more the world will believe that the Syrian regime is determined to cover up the extent of the horror it has brought to bear on Baba Amr.
Secondly, we are working to make sure that those responsible for crimes are held to account. The European Council agreed that there must be a day of reckoning for those who are responsible. Britain and its European partners are working together to help document the evidence of these atrocities so that evidence can be used at a later date. International justice has a long reach and a long memory.
Thirdly, we are working for a political transition to bring the violence to an end. The European Council was clear that President Assad should step aside for the sake of the Syrian people and supported the efforts of Kofi Annan to work for a peaceful process of political transition.
Syria’s tragedy is that those who are clinging to Assad for the sake of stability are in fact helping to ensure the complete opposite. Far from being a force for stability, Assad’s continued presence makes a future of all-out civil war ever more likely. What can still save Syria is for those who are still supporting and accommodating Assad’s criminal clique to come to their senses and turn their back on the regime.
It is still possible that Syria’s national institutions can be saved and play their part in opening a path to an inclusive, peaceful and decent transition. We will deploy every tool we can—sanctions, aid and the pressure of diplomacy—reaching out to the opposition in Syria and beyond. We will work with anyone who is ready to build a stable, inclusive, non-sectarian, open and democratic Syria for all Syrians. That is the choice that is still open to those in authority in Syria. Now is the time to make that choice, before it is too late.
Finally, on Friday morning 25 member states signed the intergovernmental agreement on the fiscal compact. This binds countries in the eurozone to a budget deficit of no more than 0.5 per cent, and it involves countries giving up the power to write their own budget if they go beyond it. Britain is not signing this agreement. Britain is not in the euro and it is not going to join the euro, so it is right that we are not involved. But it is important that we continue to ensure that vital issues such as the single market are discussed by all 27 members. That is exactly what happened at this Council. Far from not being included in the vital discussion that affects our national interests, Britain helped to set the agenda at this European Council and Britain helped ensure its success. I commend this Statement to the House”.
Lord Strathclyde
Oh dear, my Lords, I was hoping for something rather more positive from the noble Baroness. It would help if the party in Opposition were to rethink its policies on Europe and try to answer some of the questions that she herself has posed. I shall return to that in a moment.
First, I echo her words on Syria and welcome them. Of course, an enormous amount is being done on the ground in that benighted part of the world. It is clear to anyone reading the newspapers and watching television that it is a fast-moving situation which is likely to continue over the course of the next few weeks.
What are we doing about it? Our top priority is to make sure that the humanitarian situation is improved on the ground. The International Development Secretary is planning to speak to the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, today. We believe that she is flying from New York to the region today, expecting to get access to Syria, even though her efforts last week were halted. Our permanent representative to the UN is speaking to the IRCR in New York today. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, who hopes to speak to President Putin—indeed, he may have done so—will raise the issue with him if he has the opportunity.
Obviously, this was a Council meeting that concentrated on the issue of growth and employment. I thought that the noble Baroness was unusually carping about my right honourable friend when she talked about the eurozone agreement that had been signed by the 25. The history of that is well known. She and I have debated this across the Dispatch Box but we still do not know whether, if the Leader of the Opposition had been leading for Britain in the December Council, Mr Miliband would have signed the agreement or not. Increasingly, we believe that he would not have signed it, but we do not know.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition would have ensured that there was a better deal on the table in the first place. He would not have left an empty chair at all these important Council tables.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, we have ended up with the best deal for Britain. We have safeguarded Britain’s interests and allowed the countries of Europe to try to solve the problems of the eurozone. We very much support them, not least because we have an absolute interest in their success. We want the euro area to sort out its problems and achieve the stability and growth that all of Europe needs, and we very much welcome the progress that has been made. The European Central Bank has provided extensive additional support to banks, and many euro area countries are taking difficult decisions to address their deficits, and giving up a degree of sovereignty over the future governance of their economies. They also agreed to set up a firewall, and it is entirely right that they should do so. If the noble Baroness regards that as the Prime Minister somehow being isolated in Europe, we shall have to agree to differ, because the safeguards are clearly there.
Some doubt was expressed also on the conclusions of the European Council. The noble Baroness asked whether I could confirm that measures on the energy market, trade, growth and micro-enterprises were all announced at previous EU Councils. That was a perfectly fair and appropriate question, but the fact that they were announced in the past does not mean that it was not necessary to mention them again in this Council. These are all important issues that of course were discussed at previous Councils; but this time the content is more concrete. A year ago, the conclusions talked of the importance of the issues, but not the detail of what was to be agreed. It is now even more urgent, and we have secured more concrete language to put pressure on the Commission.
Of course, the issues of growth and innovation come up every year, and it is a tradition to discuss them at the spring Council. However, the letter that Britain organised and sent to the President of the Commission was last year signed by nine countries and this year by 12, including Italy and Spain. This year’s letter also goes further and discusses financial services and trade. Some similar issues are addressed; for example, the digital single market was included because there has not yet been enough action on that. The conclusions of the Council this time reference all eight of our action points, and there will be a more concrete follow-up.
The background to this Council is extremely well known. It is one of the most economically unstable backgrounds that the European Union has ever faced, and nobody thinks that we are yet out of the woods. However, we seem to be in a period of relative stability, and it was entirely correct that in the Council we should concentrate on improving our competitiveness, employment and growth.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement and will make a positive response. We certainly welcome the emphasis on growth, competitiveness and completion of the single market. We also welcome the collaboration between the United Kingdom and other heads of state and Governments in shaping Europe’s strategy on jobs and growth. Does this not show that we get better results when we work together closely with our European partners, and that a strategy of positive engagement in Europe works to our benefit?
On enlargement, we welcome candidate status being accorded to Serbia, with a view to opening accession negotiations. We also welcome the Council’s intention to launch a stabilisation and association process with Kosovo. How will the British Government support these processes, and what is their view of the prospects of continuing progress?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend, who of course is quite right that it is good to concentrate on jobs, growth and competitiveness. It is also important that we should work together. Britain is very much in the lead on this co-operation, working closely with other countries. The Statement is very clear not only about the British interest but also the wider European interest. That is why we have sought to complete the single market in services, the digital single market and also the energy single market, which we believe will be a substantial force in reducing prices overall and raising living standards throughout Europe. It is our intention to continue working together on these important issues at a European and bilateral level. We can see from the letter that was agreed by 12 of our partners that there is a good deal of co-operation.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, I, too, welcome the Government's Statement, and in particular the front-line role given to the statement that the biggest challenge for Europe's long-term future is to secure sustainable growth and jobs. I note that in its conclusions, the European Council states that it will concentrate on the implementation of reforms and pay particular attention to measures that have a short-term effect on jobs and growth. That is long overdue and I am very pleased to see it.
I am one of the Members of the House who reads all 45 paragraphs of the conclusions, not just the Statement. I will make one comment and then pose two questions or invitations to the noble Lord. My comment is that I am very pleased to see, in the section on action at a national level, that inter alia all member states are invited to remove barriers to the creation of new jobs. I make this point because it is important to realise that in the single market it is not just the EU institutions and the UK Government but the prosperity of the whole Union that matters. That is a very important point that could ultimately be advantageous to UK growth.
My first invitation is that the Leader of the House should spend a day and night giving priority to two points in particular. I say that because long experience has taught me that conclusions always have masses of things in them, and that if one wants to get anywhere one has to concentrate on one or two major points. The two points that strike me as very important are well known and come from the text of the conclusions. The first is that,
“efforts will continue in order to … reduce the administrative and regulatory burdens at EU and national level”.
Personally, I would like to have seen a stronger word than “continue”. I would like to have seen something like “be stepped up”. However, it is extremely important for the United Kingdom to keep the emphasis on this point, even if it irritates some people, because we need action.
My second point concerns paragraph 18, which states that,
“efforts must be stepped up”—
I am glad that this time it says “stepped up”—
“with a view to … creating the best possible environment for entrepreneurs to commercialise their ideas and create jobs and putting demand-led innovation as a main driver of Europe's research and development policy”.
This is not referred to in the government Statement, but it is important. There is great potential for Britain in using European research and development policy to drive action at a commercial level as well. Over time it could be highly beneficial. Therefore, I invite the noble Lord to spend a day and a night concentrating on those two points with his colleagues.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I very much welcome what the noble Lord said. He is not alone but part of a small and very keen group of Peers who read and study the conclusions and then ask me questions on them. Fortunately, I, too, am one of those who read them. That does not mean that the noble Lord will never catch me out. However, my eye was drawn to these two conclusions—particularly the one that mentioned taking steps to remove administrative and bureaucratic burdens. This is something the Prime Minister spent a great deal of time talking about at the Council, one of the reasons being that very often Council conclusions will talk about these measures and about growth and employment measures but the Council does nothing about them. It is very important that we get into a process where the Council and the Commission do something about them.
Secondly, on more innovation, I very much admire the noble Lord for bringing this one out. Innovation is going to be the engine of growth within the whole of Europe, as he rightly pointed out, and I very much welcomed his earlier remarks about this Council being on sustainable growth and jobs. The key to all this is, of course, implementing these high sounding phrases. The noble Lord was correct in pointing out that this is not just about doing these things at a European level or, indeed, a British level. It is for every country in Europe to play a role. Within our own parliamentary system, we need to be part of that process that pushes down on regulation. We try to remove barriers to trade wherever we find them. The history of post-war Britain is that where we remove these barriers, we increase growth and employment prospects for all.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, while the time may not be nigh to recall that the United Kingdom has obligations under the “responsibility to protect” norm and under the genocide convention in terms of Syria, will the Minister reflect on those responsibilities and tell us whether in the interim, for the time being, now, the UK Government will consider on their own or as a coalition of the willing doing just three things: cutting diplomatic ties with Syria; banning its commercial flights landing at our airports and, in a coalition of the willing, at other European airports; and naming the 100 or so members of the Syrian regime as subjects for future indictments at the International Criminal Court?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend encourages us to act unilaterally on the list of subjects that she offered. I am aware that we are moving forward on some of them, perhaps more tentatively than my noble friend would like. On others, we are not doing so. Perhaps I can check the situation when I get back to my desk, and if I can offer her any more concrete examples, I shall write to her.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, on the previous occasion that my noble friend delivered the Prime Minister’s Commons Statement on a prior European Council, did he notice the coincidence in the accompanying conclusions communiqué that the number of SMEs in the European Union is 23 million and that the number of unemployed in the EU is, give or take thousands, almost precisely the same number? Without expecting my noble friend to have the same UK statistics to hand, does he find it attractive that British SMEs should seek to provide one extra job each, carrying the double advantage of creating an example of hope to the rest of Europe at large and simultaneously highlighting the desirability of reducing regulations on companies with fewer than 10 people?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend has a well earned reputation for finding these sorts of statistics that have passed so many others by, including me. He is right on the figure of 23 million small firms and 23 million unemployed. One each has an extra job, and that sweeps up unemployment. Of course, that is one of the reasons why, at last, many other European countries are joining us on deregulating and are accepting the case that what are called microenterprises—those that employ fewer than 10 people—are one of the basic engines for growth and employment. I am very grateful to my noble friend for pointing that out.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement, and I agree with him about the importance of deregulation. I think it was in 1988 that I first wrote in one of these post-European Council prime ministerial Statements the sentence on deregulation. For the first time, we got a specific commitment. I am a little cynical about these European Councils. Of course, I think it is a wonderful idea that they should have talked about growth and the single market, but if you read the conclusions as avidly as my noble friend Lord Williamson, you discover that there is a sort of shopping list containing all the proposals that anybody ever had, including all those the Commission has had. For example, when we agreed the conclusions we appear to have agreed that work should be carried forward on the financial transactions tax, which seems to me to be one of the silliest proposals on the table now. I cannot think why we do not say, “Let’s just stop it”, because we can. It is on the legal basis of unanimity, and we can say that we are not going to agree. I think the conclusions are interesting, and it is good that the right subjects are being discussed, but they are a little bit of a ragbag.
I want to ask the Leader a completely different question. It is not about why we did not sign up to the treaty of 25, although the Statement is possibly a little suggestio falsi eye on that, in that it points out that the obligations apply only to the eurozone countries but does not point out that the Poles, the Swedes and six other member states thought it worth being in the room, at least, and are not committed to the obligations. I want to ask about Kosovo. I am sure the Leader is a great expert on Kosovo. I am not, but I see that the Statement speaks of a,
“process which can lead to a new contract between the European Union and Kosovo”.
Have all member states of the European Union recognised Kosovo? If they have not yet recognised Kosovo, how will this process work? Why do those who have not yet recognised Kosovo resist the independence of Kosovo? Could it be because they do not like secession movements, for example, in their own countries? Is this a point that the noble Lord will draw to the attention of his countrymen and mine?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord always speaks here with the voice of experience and knowledge, not least as an author of EU conclusions. I think that he said, in this rather empty House, that he is just a little bit cynical about these conclusions. It is easy to become cynical when you read these conclusions and you see the same words and phrases coming up again. I shall resist the temptation to join the Prime Minister in saying that this is a new dawn. However, the Prime Minister is very keen that when the EU says it is going to do something, it should do so. That is why he has very much been at the vanguard of making the arguments that he has, and I know that he will hold the Commission to account over the months and years ahead. Incidentally, I agree with the noble Lord about being a little bit cynical; I agree with him about the financial transaction tax. We are doing well today.
What about Kosovo? The noble Lord made a point that will be endlessly discussed over the next few years vis-à-vis the situation within the United Kingdom. I have not got an answer as to whether all the countries of the EU have recognised Kosovo. At the moment we are seeking to encourage both Serbia and Kosovo to maintain their constructive approach to further dialogue. This is crucial to the EU futures of both Serbia and Kosovo, and to stability in the region and improving the lives of its people.
One thing that came out, of course, was that the General Affairs Council gave impetus to Kosovo’s EU future this week—but I do not think that was necessarily the point the noble Lord was making, which was infinitely more subtle and will require a little bit more homework from my point of view. However, I am sure that other parts of the EU seeking to secede from their mother countries will want to see not only what is developing in Kosovo but in other parts of the EU as well.
Lord Marlesford
My Lords, can my noble friend the Leader expand a little on paragraph 26 of the Council conclusions on contributions to the IMF funds? I think I am right in saying that the G20 agreed that the amount of funds for the IMF should be reviewed; that the review came up with the need to double them and that this doubling would cost Britain about £10 billion, but that this £10 billion does not count as part of public spending because it is merely a guarantee rather than a cash payment.
Am I right in thinking that HMG will be favourably disposed to playing their part—the part I have just described—in the increase in the IMF funds, assuming that 70 per cent minimum collaboration is achieved, but that if there was a special fund to rescue the eurozone by producing funds through the IMF, as is slightly referred to in paragraph 26, Britain would not contribute to that?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend knows that we are a founding member of the IMF and we are very much supporters of a well funded IMF. It is one of the most creditworthy institutions in the world, which can draw on resources from all its 187 members to fulfil its role. There are no firm proposals on the table yet. However, I can confirm to my noble friend that we have been clear, consistently, and will continue to be clear that the IMF cannot lend money to support a currency.
Licensing Act 2003 (Diamond Jubilee Licensing Hours) Order 2012
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I speak to this Motion in relation to a matter of business that the Government would like your Lordships’ House to take on Wednesday of this week—namely, consideration of Commons amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill.
During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill we on these Benches have risen on business Motions to speak to a number of matters, including Commons financial privilege. I apologise to the House for having to do so again today, but the lack of proper opportunities to raise points of order about the business of this House is a gap in the procedure of this House. I intend to write to the chairman of the Procedure Committee, the Chairman of Committees, proposing that the committee consider this issue. It will not be a surprise to the Leader of this House that I am raising my concerns today about the ping-pong arrangements for the Welfare Reform Bill, because we discussed the matter in a telephone call on Thursday.
The Government have decided that this business should take place on Wednesday as dinner-break business. We believe that that is completely inappropriate for this Bill, which is a major piece of government legislation that affects large numbers of people in this country, especially vulnerable ones. We on this side of the House believe that welfare in this country needs reform. However, we do not believe that some of the changes put forward in the Bill are the right ones. It is precisely because we believe in welfare reform that we believe that the Bill should at all times be handled and considered properly by this House. In line with that, we do not believe that considering what the Commons wishes to put before this House should be done as a piece of dinner-time business during another major Bill. This Bill and the House deserve better.
We also object to the way in which this business is being scheduled for your Lordships’ House. This House is not like the other place, and we rightly pride ourselves on self-regulation. This House is proud, too, that in many respects we proceed by agreement and consensus. This House wants to see these points reflected in the way that business is organised here, which in turn means the smooth running of the usual channels arrangement. We have a very good relationship between the usual channels of this House.
However, the usual channels, of course, occasionally have their ups and downs. We do not believe that announcing that a stage of a Bill of this magnitude will be taken as dinner-break business should be done without the agreement of the usual channels. To make such an announcement simply by changing the forthcoming business publication makes things that much worse, especially when it happens during a week when your Lordships' House is in recess. I believe that this could be to the inconvenience of the whole House, and we do not believe that this is what the Government should be doing. Whatever the scale of the Government’s political majority in this House, we do not believe that this is the sort of behaviour that your Lordships’ House wants to see.
We on these Benches have put all these points to the Government previously, but even at this late hour we urge them to reconsider. We urge them not to take this important parliamentary stage of this important Bill as dinner-break business on Wednesday, but to allow the matter to be considered by the House properly and in full. We urge the Government to reflect on this and to think again.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I am astonished and a little disappointed by what the noble Baroness has just said. I would understand it if there were some sort of government ploy to catch out your Lordships by giving the House just under a week’s notice of ping-pong, but everything that we have done on this Bill has been entirely precedented. It is well precedented to take more than one Bill in a day; it is well precedented to take divisible business, including ping-pong, in the dinner break; and it is well precedented not to take ping-pong as first business. What is so appalling about what the noble Baroness has just said is that each was done under her own Administration and, indeed, under her leadership.
I should remind the House that the Standing Orders allow us to take ping-pong not only at any point in the day but as last business and without notice, both of which are also well precedented. On this occasion, we advertised a date for this second round of ping-pong last Thursday, in time for each party’s Whip and group notices. The Government can hardly be accused of squirreling away the business when we have given the House nearly a whole week’s notice.
I am at a loss to understand what is going on. However, there was brought to my attention a twitter by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who calls himself—
Lord Strathclyde
A tweet, rather. He calls himself LordPhilofBrum. In it, he said:
“Appallingly the Govt have scheduled vote out of normal voting time on Wednesday evening”.
But the last time we voted on this issue it was 8.17 at night. The idea that we vote only before 7 pm is entirely new to me in the 25 years that I have been a Member of this House. This is a bogus protest and I very much hope that we can carry on with the Motion before us.
Social Security (Contributions) (Re-rating) Order 2012
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Office of Fair Trading
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I think that we should hear from the Liberal Democrats first.
Baroness Kramer
I shall try to be very brief. The Minister will be aware that for the ordinary consumer trying to deal with the combination of the OFT, Consumer Focus, Consumer Direct, the CBA and the Competition Commission, knowing where to go when there is an issue that needs to be raised is next to impossible. With the restructuring coming, the confusion is just adding laying layer upon layer. Would it be possible for the department to put some real clarity on its website to direct people under the current structure and with some clear indication where restructuring is going to take us?
House of Lords: Membership
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, in line with the coalition’s programme for government, the Government are working towards the objective of creating a second Chamber that reflects the share of the votes secured by the political parties at the last general election.
Lord Dubs
Oh. [Laughter.] My Lords, on 24 January, the Leader of the House said:
“There is no plan to pack the House with at least 60 government supporters. It would look absurd and it would be absurd”.—[Official Report, 24/1/12; col. 919.]
Given the Answer that he has just given to my Question, does he agree that it is doubtful whether he could find a single Member of this House who thinks that increasing its number is a good idea, both on grounds of cost and of making this House look even more absurd than it does with an increase in numbers? I ask the Government to think again about this stupid idea.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord can ask whatever he wants, but the Government’s position is the one I outlined in my original Answer. It is up to the Prime Minister, as it has been up to previous Prime Ministers, to decide whether he wishes to make more Peers. It is widely known that a draft Bill to reform your Lordships’ House is before a Joint Committee that may well turn into a Bill in the next Session of Parliament. But in any case, since the general election a number of deaths have sadly been recorded among your Lordships, which means that there has been a reduction from the high reached earlier on. Even if my right honourable friend the Prime Minister were to replace the number of Peers who have died, we would not be at the all-time high we saw recently.
The Lord Bishop of Chichester
My Lords, I cannot declare an interest as I speak from the Benches whose number is fixed. However, I would like to ask the Leader of the House to reflect upon what he said about the principle of the balance in relation to the very important role played by the Cross Benches in this House. Their relative influence could be changed significantly if the House were to be increased in size in the way he mentioned. Does he agree that an important question of constitutional principle is at stake here?
Lord Strathclyde
It is good to hear the right reverend Prelate speak in support of the Cross Benches of which I, too, am a great supporter. That is why I have consistently opposed the idea of a 100 per cent elected House. Indeed, I am also a supporter of the role of the right reverend Prelates. They make a substantial contribution to the workings of the House. I do not think that the proportion of the Cross Benches has changed very much over the course of the past 10 years. We know of the tremendous contribution they make, not just in votes in the House but also in making speeches, and I do not think it is planned to change that proportion under the current system. But if a Bill is put before Parliament, of course everything will be up for grabs.
Lord Kakkar
My Lords, whose comments better reflect a mature and reasoned understanding of the challenges attending reform of the House of Lords? Are they those of the president of the Liberal Democrats, who has likened your Lordships’ House to the tyrannical Syrian regime, or those of their leader, Nick Clegg, who has described your Lordships as an “affront” to liberal democracy?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it was the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who originally coined the phrase “an affront to democracy” in relation to the House of Lords, so my right honourable friend is certainly not the first to say that. I am not responsible for what the president of the Liberal Democrats has said, but perhaps he should wander up the corridor from the House of Commons and see the real work that is done in this House, not least of all by my colleagues and friends who represent the Liberal Democrat Party here.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, could my noble friend help me by explaining the logic of a Government’s policy which seeks to reduce the size of the House of Commons in order to save public money while greatly increasing the size of the unelected House of Lords? Would I be cynical in thinking that this is an attempt to discredit this House in order to justify their plans for abolition?
Lord Strathclyde
No, my Lords, my noble friend would, unusually, be quite wrong in thinking that. The plain facts are, first, that the House of Lords has, in its relatively recent past, been considerably larger than it currently is and, secondly, that it is widely known and understood, which I think allows me to make this point one more time, that the House of Lords is incredibly good value. The cost per Peer is considerably smaller than that for Members of the House of Commons or indeed for Members of the European Parliament.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, since the election, the coalition Benches have swollen by 71 Peers —who are very welcome, of course—and my own Benches have been increased by 39. Does the rumoured rise in the number of coalition Peers have anything to do with the fact that the Government have lost 33 votes in this Session of Parliament?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the fact that the Government have lost 33 votes in this Session of Parliament simply indicates that the House of Lords is doing its work extremely well in suggesting changes to our well thought through legislation and asking the Government and the House of Commons to think again. The fact that the House of Commons does not always agree with the wisdom of your Lordships is its constitutional right. As for balancing out the numbers, it is again a well known fact, which I know noble Lords opposite do not like, that the Labour Party is for the first time ever the largest political group in opposition in the House of Lords. It does a very effective job. The coalition, meanwhile, still makes up only 37 per cent of the House. This is not a majoritarian House.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, since the Government have indicated that their current intention is to reduce the size of this House by about half, does it follow that those who are to be appointed before that happens are being told that they are being appointed for life, or for a period of years until the Lords’ structure is changed?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Jay, will be telling new Peers coming through the Appointments Commission, but certainly the Prime Minister is not telling anybody anything. [Laughter.] That is because he is not appointing any Peers just at the moment. A peerage is for life, but it does not necessarily give a right to sit and vote in Parliament. That is the difference.
Housing (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2012
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, will the Leader of the House make a Statement to the House on Monday, first, on when the Welfare Reform Bill will return to this House following Commons consideration of Lords amendments yesterday and, secondly, on the procedural impact on the Bill of the declaration of Commons financial privilege in relation to a number of the Bill’s clauses?
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I accept the invitation that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition has made. First, the decision on when we will take Lords consideration of Commons amendments on the Welfare Reform Bill will be made in the usual channels in due course and will then appear on the Order Paper, which I hope will be for the benefit of the House. We will have the discussions in the usual channels as soon as possible.
Secondly, the clerks of the House stand ready to give any noble Lord procedural advice, but perhaps I may repeat something that I said yesterday afternoon: namely, that privilege is nothing new, having existed for nearly 350 years, and that any amendment with implications for public expenditure might involve privilege, but that it is a matter for another place, not for me or us. As the previous Clerk of the Parliaments stated in a recently published memorandum,
“until the Commons asserts its privilege, the Lords is fully entitled to debate and agree to amendments with privilege implications”.
There is nothing new in any of this. The Commons asserts its privilege in almost every Session. It has done so already this Session and did so regularly in the previous Parliament. Indeed, the previous Department of Work and Pensions Bill that attracted financial privilege was in the Session 2006-07 when the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, himself was the Minister.
It is also worth reminding noble Lords that the Joint Committee on Conventions, which sat under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham and reported in 2006, said:
“If the Commons have disagreed to Lords Amendments on grounds of financial privilege, it is contrary to convention for the Lords to send back Amendments in lieu which clearly invite the same response”.
The House took note, with approval, of that report on 16 January 2007. If the Commons has asserted privilege, it is simply not profitable for this House to persist.
I hope that that is a helpful explanation of where we are, but I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity of making this short statement.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I do not know whether this is in order, but if it is I would like to do it. My noble friend should know that concern about this matter is not confined to the other side of the House. I also think that, notwithstanding what has just been said or what the previous Government may or may not have done in 2006, this raises real questions about the relationship in practice as it has existed over many years between the two Houses of Parliament. I think that we are entitled to an opportunity to hear a Statement and ask questions about just where that relationship is now going.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I note all that has been said and the wisdom that has come from many Members of this House. I have two questions for the noble Lord. First, could he confirm that if the Government so wished they could waive financial privilege? Secondly, in the light of all that has been said in this very short debate and the importance of the work being undertaken by the Joint Committee in relation to conventions, I think that the House as a whole would welcome a Statement from the noble Lord on Monday to further discuss these issues.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that was a useful tour around the House on this matter of privilege. From time to time there are debases on privilege in this House, and it is entirely right that we should have them. But as I have explained, the matter of privilege is nothing to do with the Government, although the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, is entirely right that in certain instances the Government can waive financial privilege—if, for instance, they were to agree with an amendment made in the House of Lords or to part of an amendment. As I understand it, neither of those occurred on this occasion.
As the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, explained yesterday and again today, financial privilege is a matter for the House of Commons alone and, within the House of Commons, it is a matter for the Speaker on advice from the Clerks, not from the Government. I do not think that it would be useful for this House to debate endlessly or take a view of procedures in another place, any more than we would like another place to have a view about the procedures in this House. Both Houses have a longstanding convention that we do not debate the other’s practice, and I think that that is entirely right.
What I sense underlies much of this angst is what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, talked about, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth—about the possibility of a reform. I am the first to defend the rights and privileges of this House, as I have done continually since I have been Leader. It is perfectly true that in the scenario of an elected House over time, the procedures and powers in this House would evolve; it could well mean that we ended up with a stronger and more powerful House, better able to challenge decisions made in the House of Commons. But that is part of the evolution between the two Houses. It would be a reversal of the evolution that has taken place over the course of the past 100 years, or so, but there is no reason why that should happen. If the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, and others were to amend or wish to amend a Bill on the reform of the House to do that, of course that is entirely possible. I am not sure what the Labour Party’s position is on the powers of the second Chamber. Perhaps this is the kind of positive thinking—or critical thinking, or continual thinking—that the Labour Party needs to do, apparently, and it will let its views be known.
My noble friend Lord Lawson was such a distinguished Chancellor of Exchequer for many years. I do not have the statistics, but I cannot believe that when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer he cheered every time the House of Lords spent more money.
Lord Strathclyde
I am well aware that my noble friend managed perfectly well.
My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay asked whether I was going to make a Statement on whether or why this was not a money Bill. I must say that I have not the faintest idea why this was not a money Bill. I am sure there are very good, practical and well precedented reasons why social security legislation is not deemed to be a money Bill.
A number of noble Lords have suggested that I should make a Statement at some stage next week on privilege. Let me consider that. There is no point making a Statement if we do not add very much more to the amount of knowledge that we already have. We will have an opportunity to debate the Bill when it returns from the House of Commons and when we have decided on a date, but if I can shed any extra light then I will do so. It might be better to have a Question for Short Debate, where we can discuss these matters in the round.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I have to crave the indulgence of the House once more to quote something back at the noble Lord the Leader from when I was a transgressor on financial privilege. This is a very enlightening piece from Hansard. The noble Lord the Leader said:
“The Government therefore did not seek to debate the substance of my noble friend’s amendment in another place last night; they simply declared it unconstitutional and cited privilege. I do not think that that is good enough. The Government should not hide behind the principle of privilege as a matter of course, because what is constitutional should be a matter for the whole of Parliament. Parliament should not accept the use of the privilege amendment in cases of doubt simply to stifle debate, which is the impression that the Government have given in dealing with my noble friend’s amendments. After all, if the amendments of your Lordships’ House are not to be discussed, what is the point of this House ever agreeing to any amendments? I ask the noble Baroness”—
that is, me—
“to consider this matter carefully with her colleagues in another place, with Members of this House and, perhaps, with the Clerk of the Parliaments and his opposite number in another place to see how this issue can be resolved. If the rights of your Lordships are well understood—not only in their limits but in their reality and usefulness—then none of us should see those rights lightly eroded”.—[Official Report, 25/11/08; cols. 1359-60.]
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is always nice to have my speeches quoted and of course we could do this all day. The noble Baroness could quote my rather good speeches and I could quote her equally good ones. In fact, I will requote what I also said to the noble Baroness in that same speech: that she had,
“rightly pointed out that there is a long established position that this House does not insist on an amendment where the other place cites financial privilege, and no one, least of all me, is trying to change that”.—[Official Report, 25/11/08; col. 1359.]
I rest my case.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
My Lords, the question is that the original three Motions in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, be agreed to en bloc.
Motions agreed.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure that at Report on the Bill there will be issues which relate, however indirectly, to the finances of the National Health Service. Perhaps I may ask the Leader of the House whether the Government could give an indication of the procedural implications for this House on the Welfare Reform Bill following a Statement on financial privilege by the Minister earlier today in the other place.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind invitation for some procedural advice. We will be dealing with the Welfare Reform Bill when it comes back from another place. I should say that matters for privilege are not a matter for the Government but a matter for the House of Commons and the Speaker of the House of Commons on advice from his clerks. The position of privilege has of course been jealously guarded by the House of Commons since 1671. It is well precedented and there is nothing unusual, although the second Chamber might always think that the Commons using financial privilege is a little unfair.
We will get to that Bill in due course. I cannot comment on the Health and Social Care Bill, which is of course the subject of the Motion before us now, as to what the Government’s attitude will be on defeats. But, as I said earlier, there is nothing unusual about financial privilege being prayed in aid. Since there are many former Members of another place present in this House I am sure that they will readily understand.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, the Leader of the House has given us a proper and guarded answer to quite a difficult question. However, does he not agree that this encapsulates the kind of problem which needs to be resolved before we have a directly elected second Chamber? It goes to the heart of one of the issues that has been accepted as the norm by both Houses for many decades but which would undoubtedly be challenged time and again in the event of a directly elected House. I do not expect the noble Lord to give an immediate answer now—he will give a guarded response—but can I try to be helpful and suggest that this is the kind of issue which the committee of my noble friend Lord Richard should look at, and that that may involve an extension of the period of time the committee needs to consider it? But it is clearly issues like this—alongside, in relation to an Oral Question taken earlier, issues like the impact of a referendum in Scotland—which need to be considered by the Joint Committee before we proceed any further.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, perhaps I may ask a question of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. I ask him as the Leader of the whole House—which I know he is very mindful and respectful of—and not just as the leader of a government coalition party. Whenever we deal with a social security Bill—apart from turning negative regulations into affirmative regulations—that almost inevitably involves expenditure, either increasing it or reducing it. That may also apply to health Bills and transport Bills. If, on any choosing of the Speaker and one of the noble Lord’s right honourable friends at the other end in a position of authority, the claim can be made that that is financial privilege—this is before the Speaker has even ruled on it, so clearly there is a government view so far as I can tell; I stand to be corrected—and if any Bill involving any element of expenditure, including on welfare, pensions, health and education, can at the fiat of the House of Commons be ruled as money and therefore privilege, then, taking the noble Lord’s statement that this House is a part-time House, it will become a very part-time House indeed because we might as well go home.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, let me deal with the two questions put by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, and the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. My noble friend Lord Howe, who is an expert on these matters, will respond to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. In response to the noble Baroness, as I said earlier, this is a matter for the House of Commons; it is not a matter for me. It is the Speaker who takes a view on the advice of the clerks. I would not be at all surprised if they had had a discussion with the Government, but there is nothing new in any of this. No procedure has changed and no substantive law or practice has done so. It is perfectly possible for this House to suggest and recommend changes to Bills over a whole range of issues, no doubt including financial ones. How the House of Commons deals with those is a matter for that House.
I thought that the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, were precisely the kind of points that he might make if a “reform of the second Chamber” Bill were brought forward. I would not dream of trespassing on matters which are the preserve of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and his Joint Committee. I am sure that they will have taken account of what the noble Lord said.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. Perhaps I may come back to a point he raised. I am sure that the procedure was followed appropriately in the other place and I assume that the Government made application to the Speaker. The question is whether it was wise for the Government to use this process in this place, because, essentially, they are hiding behind parliamentary procedure to curtail consideration of the amendments that your Lordships passed on the Welfare Reform Bill. In essence, my noble friend has put it absolutely right: if the Government continue to do this on these Bills, our role as a revising Chamber is effectively undermined.
Lord Strathclyde
I simply disagree with the noble Lord. This situation has existed for 350 years. It was as though the noble Lord were suggesting that the Government had found some new ploy to stop the will of the House of Lords. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, will agree that we are an unelected House. The House of Commons is an elected House. It has protected its financial privilege since 1671. Nothing has changed for the debates that we will no doubt have on the health Bill and the welfare Bill.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
I wish to question the timing of such a decision on the part of the Speaker. It seems somewhat of a waste of time if your Lordships debate provisions which turn out to be completely sacrosanct because of the decision on privilege made at the other end. The expense involved in your Lordships coming here and taking part seems a waste of taxpayers’ money at a time of considerable austerity if the whole procedure is useless. I suggest that the timing of such decisions needs to be looked at.
Lord Elton
Would my noble friend enlighten me? I think I know the answer to this, but I may well be wrong: the more an amendment changes the volume of money in issue, the more likely a Bill is to become a money Bill. If that is the case, we all know where we are: it is just a question of how high the bar is.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am rapidly becoming an expert on privilege, which I was not expecting a few moments ago. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, because he explained with his experience the process of deciding privilege in another place, which I repeat is not a matter for me as a member of the Government. Nor is it a matter for the Government or a Member of this House. It is something that has been jealously guarded by the House of Commons for many years.
My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, raise the same question, which is how we could be pre-warned. I am not sure how that process could take place because we do not know what the Government will lose or what amendments the House of Lords will press to a Division. I dare say that we could. I am thinking as I am speaking, which is always a dangerous thing to do from the Dispatch Box, about a system where amendments might be deemed to be likely to invoke privilege by the House of Commons. But I suspect we can probably do that ourselves. Maybe my noble friend Lord Elton was correct in saying that amendments that mean a substantial increase in expenditure of public spending are more likely to invoke privilege than those that do not. Perhaps that is the way to go.
I wonder if we are profiting in continuing this debate now. Would it not be better to wait until the Welfare Reform Bill returns from the House of Commons with its amendments to see if privilege has been invoked? There is then a well trodden process in this House. I do not think that the House wastes its time by debating the issues. We do not insist on all the amendments that we pass in this House. We sent them back to the House of Commons to get the Government and the House of Commons to think again. If they have thought again and invoked financial privilege, we should let the matter rest.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, I have listened to the noble Lords, Lord Martin of Springburn and the Leader of the House. They both claim, each in their different way, that this is a wholly independent procedure. Are we really to believe that one morning the Speaker gets up and says, “Eureka, I’m going to decide whether this is financial privilege or not”? Who initiates the process? It is hard to believe there was not a nudge and a wink from the Government to try to save their own blushes.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, is not the reality that when the Government have run out of arguments and patience they ask the Speaker if he will invoke financial privilege? They cross their fingers and hope that he will do so. Do this Government actually want the House of Lords to operate as a revising Chamber or not?
Lord Strathclyde
I do find it faintly comical that former Members of the House of the Commons, who would have died in a ditch to preserve and protect financial privilege, decide to take a completely different view as soon as they are translated into Members of this House. I said earlier that surely the time for us to have this debate is when we are faced with the facts of the Bill, with the amendments from the House of Commons. We will have the benefit of seeing the debate that is taking place in the House of Commons as we speak. Would that not be a better way of proceeding? I very much hope that we will be able to pass this Motion from my noble friend Lord Howe, unless he wishes to add anything to the questions that were put to him.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, perhaps I could address the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, about my department’s risk register. When I last spoke to the House on this matter, I promised to use my best endeavours to ensure that the appeal hearing on the matter of the risk register took place at the earliest possible date. As a result of discussions between my department and the tribunal that will hear the Government’s appeal, that date was brought forward from the one that I originally announced to 5 and 6 March. I believe that is a welcome development. The outcome of the appeal will not be known until a few days after that. It is of course a matter for the tribunal.
As regards the timing of Third Reading, the noble Lord will know that it is a matter for the usual channels in this House. I am aware that there is a Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, which invites the House to consider the matter of the department’s risk register before the House goes into Third Reading on the Bill. I suggest that once the timing of the appeal outcome and of Third Reading are known, it would be appropriate to revisit this question. However, it is perhaps a little early to decide now quite what the best order of events should be.
House of Lords: Scottish Referendum
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the Government can proceed only on the current constitutional framework. We will of course take all relevant factors into account when planning the timetable for reform.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am enormously grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for that illuminating response. Remarkably, it appears that Mr Clegg’s Bill is to be the centrepiece of the Government's legislative programme for the next Session. However, this will be in advance of the outcome of the Scottish referendum which could—I am sure the noble Lord will agree—have profound constitutional significance for the United Kingdom. How will the Government take that into account? Furthermore, as Scotland is to have a referendum, why on earth are the British people not to be allowed one on Lords reform?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there were a number of questions there. The noble Lord is right that it would have profound constitutional implications for the United Kingdom if there were to be a referendum result in Scotland in favour of breaking up the United Kingdom. However, as I said in my Answer, we can proceed only on the current constitutional framework. If there is a Scottish referendum, I for one—and, I am sure, the noble Lord for another—will campaign in favour of retaining the United Kingdom. The Government of course considered the case for a referendum on the future of the House of Lords. However, given that all three manifestos in the most recent election were remarkably similar on reform of the House, we feel that people's views have already been taken into account.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, the manifestos were rather different. However, does my noble friend agree that those of us who are concerned about the future of the United Kingdom must not take the people of Scotland for granted and must not appear to patronise them? To anticipate the results of the Scottish referendum would seem to do precisely that. Therefore, is there not the strongest possible case for getting the issue decided before we turn to House of Lords reform?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, of course we must neither patronise nor anticipate. On the other hand, normal work should not come to a halt because of a possible referendum. That is why we are carrying on with our stated proposal for reform of the second Chamber.
Lord Kakkar
My Lords, if the Scottish people were to determine that their constitutional destiny lay with the devo-max model, would it be appropriate for them to participate in elections for the Deputy Prime Minister’s senate in 2015?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, a rather different question is raised by the noble Lord, and I am not sure that I know entirely what is meant by this phrase devo-max.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I hear some moaning from the other side, but I expect that if we asked three of them what they thought devo-max meant we would get four different answers. It would probably be the same if we asked them their views on House of Lords reform. The point is that any different arrangement of the United Kingdom would of course have an impact on an elected House, in the same way as it would have an impact on the House of Commons.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I am not going to ask about devo-max. However, last week, in reply to a question from my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, the Leader of the House gave an unequivocal reply that no list of new Peers is being proposed. In the Daily Telegraph today he was quoted as saying that there is a new list, and indeed that the SNP has been asked to nominate. Would he care to clarify the position?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I stand by my original answer. It is, of course, up to the Prime Minister to decide when and if he comes forward with a list. I am not aware that he has any current plans to do so. I certainly voiced a view that there is no reason why there should not be a Scottish nationalist in this House, but I do not believe that any has been proposed.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, would it not be wise to allow the United Kingdom to reach consensual decisions about the role, powers and composition of this House when the future political relationships of all the constituent nations of the country have been settled?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not think there is any requirement for us to wait on a referendum on breaking up the United Kingdom, which may not take place until the end of this Parliament, before legislating on what a future second Chamber will look like. However, as I said in my earlier Answer—which I think is not out of keeping with what my noble friend has just said—if the relevant factors were to change, we would take them into account when planning the long-term timetable for reform.
Lord Cunningham of Felling
My Lords, would not the best way of improving Scottish influence on proposals for House of Lords reform be to abandon the current, deeply flawed draft Bill, and replace it with support for the excellent Bill tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, which commands wide-ranging respect in this House?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am well aware of the respect with which it is held in this House. However, it does fly in the face of the three manifestos on which the Members of the House of Commons were elected only 18 months ago.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, is it not the case that because the people of this country had no chance to vote for any party except those that support Lords reform, they ought to be afforded such an opportunity?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that is a good point: when all the parties are united, there is no room for much opposition. However, if a Bill is published after the gracious Speech, I am sure that there will be very effective debate within Parliament, because, as I have said before, very often the differences on House of Lords reform exist within the parties rather than between them.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, to revert to an earlier answer, why does my noble friend think that the world is not going to come to an end if a Bill to abolish the House of Lords is introduced into your Lordships' House?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am always wary of my noble friend winning this sort of competition to speak in the House. I rather wish that I had taken the question from the noble Lord, Lord Low.