Coalition Policies
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many responses they have had to their consultation on The Coalition: Our Programme for Government; and how many of those solely endorsed coalition policies.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, no fewer than 9,500 comments were received in response to the publication of The Coalition: Our Programme for Government. Departmental responses are still available to view online and I have asked for a copy to be laid in the Library. An exercise to count the number of comments which solely endorsed coalition policies could be carried out, but only at disproportionate cost.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I suggest that it would not take too long. Is the Minister aware that 9,500 people made comments, gave suggestions and put forward ideas, yet not one government policy was changed or even tweaked as a result? The responses are not on the websites—they have been taken offline—so we will be pleased to see them in the Library. Does the noble Lord accept that this was a disappointing PR exercise? Does he think that it should be done again? If so, will he assure this House that it will be a case of the Government not just noting the responses but actually listening to what people have to say?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I cannot agree with the noble Baroness even though she puts it most charmingly. It was a useful exercise and we learnt a lot from it. Each department has given its thoughts and ideas on what has been said; those are available on departmental websites. But they have not gone back to each response, partly because, although it was a commentable document, it was not part of a consultative exercise. We learnt a lot and I am sure that in due course we will repeat it.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there have been fundamental reappraisals of government policy, particularly in the field of criminal justice and prisons? Was there consensus endorsement of that policy? Will he thank the Secretary of State for these profound changes in policy and make sure that they are converted into legislation before long?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is very good of my noble friend to point that out. The whole process of creating the original document, Our Programme for Government, was done extremely quickly, with maximum co-operation between the two parties, which is one reason why I believe that it was a success.
Lord Richard
My Lords, in his response to my noble friend the noble Lord twice said: “We have learned a lot”. What have they learned?
Lord Strathclyde
Would the noble Lord, Lord Richard, believe me if I said that the volume of correspondence generated far exceeded our expectations? The process of moderating these websites and sifting comments and ideas proved to be more resource-intensive than we had anticipated. However, we remain committed to canvassing the public’s views on a range of issues using on and offline channels.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
My Lords, is my noble friend not concerned that, with the decline of religion in this country, consultation runs the risk of becoming the opiate of the people?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, not everybody is keen on consultation, but on the whole it is a good idea to give people as many opportunities as possible to comment on government policy, and I am rather pleased that 9,500 bothered to reply to this document when it was issued.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
But if I heard the noble Lord correctly, he stated this was not a consultation. In those circumstances, is it not true that manifestos have now become a mockery and that the British people’s confidence in politics has been further undermined by having been presented with policies over which they have had no say? If this Government had been open and honest with the public when drafting their coalition policy—and if they had wanted to give a lead to the rest of Europe—should they not have put it to them in a referendum?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, when the noble Lord said that manifestos have become a mockery, he must have been talking about the Labour Party’s manifesto.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, bearing in mind the welcome initiative by the coalition, does my noble friend envisage that after future general elections each Government will publish their programme for the forthcoming Parliament?
Lord Strathclyde
Of course we do that already, vis-à-vis the Queen’s Speech, but we would not have needed to publish this document if there had been a clear majority by the Conservative Party. It was needed because we got together with our Liberal Democrat allies to create the coalition.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his utterly charming responses this afternoon. Does he believe—I do not—that the Salisbury/Addison convention should apply to policies which are outlined in the coalition agreement?
Lord Strathclyde
Broadly speaking, yes, I do, because they have the support of the majority in the House of Commons and were overwhelmingly and clearly pointed out in the respective manifestos. There are one or two exceptions where that is not the case but, as I said before, we will recognise them when we see them.
Lord Grocott
As it is not necessarily feasible to go through and analyse every single response, can the Leader of the House at least tell us how many people wrote in saying they thought it would be a good idea to spend £100 million on a referendum on the alternative vote?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord is of course right that it is far too short a time to look at each one but I flicked through the responses usefully over lunch and, for instance, here is one taken at random:
“We want referendums on national issues as we were promised”.
Another is:
“We want FAIR VOTES NOW!”.
Here is another one:
“I am concerned that having an elected upper house will mean that there is less accountability rather than more”.
I thought that one would go down well.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
Will the Leader of the House confirm that, as the alternative vote was a manifesto pledge of the Labour Party, when we come to discuss it next Monday and following from then, that party will stand firm on its commitment to the alternative vote?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am looking forward to the Labour Party’s support on that Bill.
Clerk of the Parliaments
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the current Clerk of the Parliaments, Michael Pownall, who was appointed for a three-year term on 4 November 2007, has at my request agreed to an extension of his appointment until 15 April 2011. I am pleased to say that Her Majesty the Queen has agreed to such an extension. Mr Pownall has written to me in the following terms:
“Dear Leader of the House,
I am grateful to you for notifying me of the extension of my appointment as Clerk of the Parliaments.
In coming to the decision to retire next April, I have borne in mind that I will by then have served the House of Lords for nearly 40 years. There have, of course, been many changes and challenges over this period, not least during my time as Clerk of the Parliaments; and it has been a great privilege to have played a part in the development of the House as an effective second chamber. As Clerk of the Parliaments, I have been extremely well supported by the staff of the House who as you know, show great commitment to the House and its work.
Please would you convey to Members of the House my appreciation for their support and friendship over the years.
Yours sincerely
Michael Pownall”.
I am consulting the other party leaders in the House, the Convenor of the Cross Benches and the Lord Speaker on a process to appoint a successor to Mr Pownall. The timetable for that process should mean that the recommendation for a successor to Mr Pownall can be made to Her Majesty shortly after the Christmas Recess. As is customary, I will put before the House nearer the time of his retirement a Motion to enable Members to pay proper tribute to the services of Michael Pownall.
Business of the House
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Lord McNally
That the debates on the Motions in the names of Baroness Hollis of Heigham and Lord Puttnam set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.
Apportionment of Money in the National Lottery Distribution Fund Order 2010
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Business of the House
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I rise to inform the House about the publication tomorrow of an interim report from the Leader’s Group appointed to identify options for allowing Members to leave the House of Lords permanently. The group, ably chaired by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, has produced the interim report summarising the views presented to it by a number of Members of your Lordships’ House and inviting further comment by 23 November. In order to facilitate the next stage of consultation, the usual channels have agreed that the House will be given the opportunity to debate the interim report on Tuesday 16 November. The group’s interim report will be available from 10 o’clock tomorrow morning in the Printed Paper Office and online.
European Council
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I hope that it is now convenient to repeat a Statement that was made in another place by the Prime Minister yesterday afternoon. The reason for the delay was to give this House the maximum amount of time to discuss the comprehensive spending review, an opportunity that was taken up by many of your Lordships.
“With Permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement. Clearly the whole country has been focused this weekend on the terrorist threat, and the Home Secretary will make a full Statement after this, but I want to put on record my thanks for all those involved in the international police and intelligence operation, whose efforts clearly prevented the terrorists from killing and maiming many innocent people, whether here or elsewhere in the world.
The fact that the device was being carried from Yemen to the UAE to Germany to Britain en route to America shows the interest of the whole world in coming together to deal with this and, while we are rightly engaged in Afghanistan to deny the terrorists there, the threat from the Arabian peninsula, and from Yemen in particular, has grown, so as well as the immediate steps that the Home Secretary will outline it is clear that we must take every possible step to work with our partners in the Arab world to cut out the terrorist cancer that lurks in the Arabian peninsula.
Let me turn to last week’s European Council. This Council’s main business was going to be economic governance in the light of the serious problems that the eurozone has faced. But I was clear that we would not talk about the need for fiscal rigour in the EU’s member states without also talking about the need for fiscal rigour in the EU budget—both next year and for the future. So we ensured that the EU budget was also on the agenda.
Let me go through both issues. The first is the budget for 2011. From the outset in May, we wanted a freeze. We pressed for a freeze. In July, we voted for a freeze seeking to block the 2.9 per cent proposed by the presidency. Finland, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic and Austria all voted with us. Unfortunately, together we were just short of the numbers needed for a blocking minority. So, in August, the Council agreed a 2.9 per cent increase.
In October, that went to the European Parliament, which voted for around a 6 per cent increase. This was the frankly outrageous proposal with which we were confronted at this European Council. What normally happens in these situations is that you take the position of the EU Council and the position of the EU Parliament and negotiate, which ends in splitting the difference. Indeed, that is precisely what happened last year.
So before the Council started we began building an alliance to take a different approach and insist on 2.9 per cent. I made phone calls to my counterparts in Sweden, France and Germany, among others, and continued to press the case during the Council. Twelve other heads of government agreed with me. We issued a joint letter, which makes it clear that a 6 per cent increase is,
‘especially unacceptable at a time when we are having to take difficult decisions at national level to control public expenditure’.
Furthermore, the joint letter goes on to say that,
‘we are clear that we cannot accept any more than’,
the 2.9 per cent increase being proposed by the Council.
Let me explain what this means. Either the Council and Parliament now have to agree to 2.9 per cent or there will be deadlock, in which case the EU will have to live on a repeat of last year’s budget settlement handed out in twelfths over the next 12 months, an outcome with which we would be perfectly content.
Next, and more important, Britain secured a significant breakthrough on a fundamental principle for the longer term. As well as the individual budget negotiations for 2011, 2012 and 2013, there is also a big negotiation about to happen for the future funding of the EU over the period between 2014 and 2020. We clearly want to make sure that all these negotiations go the right way and what we agreed at the Council was a big step forward. The European Commission was wholly opposed to it, but the Council agreed that,
‘at the same time as fiscal discipline is reinforced in the European Union, it is essential that the European Union budget and the forthcoming multi-annual Financial Framework reflect the consolidation efforts being made by Member States to bring deficit and debt onto a more sustainable path’.
From now on, the EU budget must reflect what we are doing in our own countries and it is quite apparent that almost every country in Europe is seeing very tough spending settlements. This new principle applies to the 2012 and 2013 budgets and the crucial 2014 to 2020 EU spending framework. Just as countries have had to change their financial plans because of the crisis, so the EU must change its financial plans, too.
If you look at the published conclusions, you see that language on the budget formed a very prominent part, even though it was never originally on the agenda. I think that this is an important step forward. In my discussion with Chancellor Merkel at the weekend, we agreed to take forward some joint work to bring some transparency to the EU budget—salaries, allowances and grants. This work has just not been done properly. It is about time that the citizens of the EU knew what the EU spends its money on. This is the spotlight that needs to be shone and that is exactly what we are going to do.
On economic governance, there are two issues. First, there is Herman van Rompuy’s report from the task force on economic governance, which was set up after the sovereign debt crisis. My right honourable friend the Chancellor and the Treasury have been fully involved. Secondly, there is the additional proposal made by the Germans and in principle agreed by the Council for a treaty amendment focusing on putting the EU’s temporary bailout mechanism on to a permanent basis. Let me take each in turn.
On van Rompuy’s report, there are some sensible proposals. For example, the eurozone clearly needs reinforced fiscal discipline to ensure its stability. The crisis has shown that in a global economy you need early warning about imbalances between different countries. Let me be clear on one point about which there has been some debate: the question of surveillance. All member states, including the UK, have participated in surveillance for more than a decade. This is not a new framework. The report is clear that the current framework remains broadly valid but needs to be applied in a better and more consistent way. The report proposes new sanctions, but we have ensured that no sanctions, either existing or new, will apply to the UK. The report could not be clearer. It says that,
‘strengthened enforcement measures need to be implemented for all EU Member States, except the UK as a consequence of Protocol 15 of the Treaty’.
That is our opt-out. It kept us out of the single currency. It kept us out of sanctions under the Maastricht treaty and we have ensured that it keeps us out of any sanctions in the future.
In addition to the issue of sanctions, a number of concerns have been raised. Let me address each of them head on. First, will we have to present our Budget to Europe before this House? No. Secondly, will we have to give Europe access to information for budgetary surveillance that is not similarly shared with organisations such as the IMF or publicly available on the internet? No. Thirdly, will powers over our Budget be transferred from Westminster to Brussels? No.
Turning to the proposal mentioned in the Council conclusions for limited treaty amendment, we have established that any possible future treaty change, should it occur, would not affect the UK and I will not agree to it if it does. The proposal to put the temporary bailout mechanism on a permanent footing is important for the eurozone. Eurozone stability is important for the UK; nearly half our trade is with the eurozone and London is Europe’s international financial centre.
Let me be clear. Throughout this process, I have been focused on our national interest. It is in our national interest that the eurozone sorts itself out. It is in our national interest that Europe avoids being paralysed by another debt crisis, as it was with Greece in May, and it is absolutely in our national interest that Britain is not drawn into having to help with any future bailout. This is what we have secured.
Let me turn briefly to the other business of the Council. On the G20, the Council discussed its priorities for the upcoming summit in Seoul. Again, our interests are clear. We are an open trading nation and we want progress on Doha. This has been going for nearly a decade and 2011 is the year when we must try to achieve a deal. We believe that the world has suffered from economic imbalances. We want countries with fiscal deficits to deal with them and countries with trade surpluses over time to look at structural and currency reforms. We recognise the importance of strengthening global financial stability and that is why we support the recent Basel agreement on stronger banking regulations. We also want global institutions reformed to reflect the growth of emerging powers, so we will see through the work that my right honourable friend the Chancellor has led on reform of IMF votes and board seats. Finally, on Cancun, we are committed to making progress towards a legally binding UN agreement.
This Council demonstrates that it is perfectly possible to deliver for our national interest while protecting our national sovereignty. Tomorrow, the British and French Governments will sign new defence and security co-operation treaties, which will be laid before Parliament in the usual way. These follow the same principle: partnership, yes, but giving away sovereignty, no. At this Council, Britain helped Europe to take the first vital steps in bringing its finances under control. We prevented a crazy 6 per cent rise in the EU budget next year. We made sure that the budget reflects domestic spending cuts in all future years and we protected the UK taxpayer from having to bail out eurozone countries that get themselves into trouble. There is a long way to go, but we have made a strong start. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I must congratulate the Leader of the Opposition on having almost comprehensively misunderstood everything that the Prime Minister was trying to do and the way that he went about doing it. I would have hoped, with 24 hours to read the Statement and the exchanges in another place, that she might have made rather a different speech, congratulating my right honourable friend on his achievements.
The noble Baroness teases us for being divided and strives to put a wedge between the Conservative Party—indeed, within the Conservative Party—and our coalition partners, the Liberal Democrats. I assure her that we of course have healthy discussions about a variety of matters to do with Europe, but there is no difference of opinion on this Statement and the direction of travel that the United Kingdom is taking on Europe.
I shall try to answer some of the noble Baroness’s specific questions about the Statement. It is true that the Council agreed in August that there should be an increase of 2.9 per cent in the EU budget. I have to say to the House that this was not our preferred option; we believe that there should have been a freeze. Given that we are not only freezing but seeking a reduction in public expenditure in the United Kingdom, we thought that it was wrong that Europe should spend more money and that 2.9 per cent was too much. However, between August and now, the European Parliament, supported by the noble Baroness’s friends—Labour MEPs did not seek to oppose it—voted for a 6 per cent increase. Therefore, we were very keen to ensure that if we could not rest at nil increase, we could agree at no increase above 2.9 per cent. That is the achievement and the agreement that we have struck with many of our partners—enough of our partners to make sure that that is what will happen.
On the treaty change, I was impressed that the noble Baroness should mention Labour's broken promise on the referendum on the Lisbon treaty. We have only to re-examine the manifesto of 2005, promising to the British people a referendum—a promise which was cruelly broken—to see what was undoubtedly one of the reasons why Labour did so badly in May 2010. The Conservative Party promised a referendum on Lisbon if it were not ratified, but it was ratified, and therefore there would be no referendum.
The noble Baroness asked a really good question—and I do not mean that patronisingly; it was a good question, because it goes to the heart of our position on Europe. It was about the transfer of power. We have a strongly held view and policy that any future transfer of power from the United Kingdom Parliament to Europe should be subject to a referendum. The noble Baroness asked if we believe that the current position is that there is a state transfer of power. We do not. If there were to be a treaty change which meant that there was a transfer of power from the United Kingdom to the European Union then, yes, we would seek a referendum.
The noble Baroness also asked questions about debates on uncertainty in the world economy and on the Doha trade round. I have nothing to add to what was mentioned in the Statement. A series of international meetings is taking place over the next few weeks—in the G20, for instance—where all those matters will no doubt be discussed, and I shall report back in due course to the House.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement made in the other place by the Prime Minister and wish to associate myself and those on these Benches with the words of appreciation to the security services for the protection of the people of this country and elsewhere from the terrorist attack launched from the Yemen.
Turning to Europe, does my noble friend accept that the outcome of the important European Council meeting held early in this coalition Government has demonstrated that those of us in the coalition who are Euro-enthusiasts—I count myself one of them—are not so starry eyed about the European Union that we do not believe that it must be held firmly to account, especially on spending, and that it must share in the relative austerity being experienced by member states and their citizens? The Prime Minister has striven to do that. Does my noble friend also agree that those in the coalition who are more Eurosceptic—the Prime Minister declared himself one of those—also see that a successful European Union and an economically secure eurozone are strongly in the national interest of this country? They are not a matter of disinterest, still less of a threat, but a matter of vital national interest to this country, and so to be followed through with enthusiasm and positive engagement—which, again, I believe that the Prime Minister did on this occasion.
Does my noble friend further agree that not only in the context of the European Union but otherwise directly—we will come to this later in the afternoon— there are opportunities for direct co-operation on a bilateral basis between European Union countries, such as the proposed co-operation between Britain and France, which we on these Benches also strongly welcome?
Lord Strathclyde
I think that the whole House will agree—and if not, they should do—that he spoke with tremendous good sense in support of the Statement and of the Prime Minister. Of course, there are others in this House—in both Houses—who have a division of view between Euro-enthusiasts and Eurosceptics. However, that need not divide us on the broad direction that we should remain part of the European Union and that we should argue for change internally, which is what we have been doing in the past week in laying out a very clear framework for budgetary change over the next 10 years. We will be at the forefront of making those arguments. Following on from what my noble friend said, we are not alone in this or isolated in Europe in wanting a proper budgetary discipline. The noble Lords opposite had an opportunity, over the past 10 years, to get this right and spectacularly failed to do so.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, on the EU budget for 2011, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for making it clear in the Statement not only that the European Council will not accept more than 2.9 per cent but that if the Parliament and the Council do not agree, there will be no increase at all. I think that would apply not only to EU policies but to the expense rates, travel allowances and things of that kind in the European institutions. Under the provisional twelfths regime, money at this year’s level—but no more—will be available on a month-by-month basis. In view of this, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House keep the House informed on the discussions between the Council and the European Parliament so that we know whether, from 1 January, there will be an increase of 2.9 per cent or a zero increase?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, brings a wealth of experience to the House and real knowledge of the workings of the European Commission and European Parliament. What he outlined is entirely correct; if there is no agreement to the 2.9 per cent then there is agreement on no increase at all. The current spending pattern would be rolled over to next year and it would be paid on a monthly basis—it would be divided by 12 and paid out on those terms. It also includes all expenditure: expenses, allowances, salaries and so forth. We would greatly welcome that result and it would be very nice to hear from the noble Lords opposite whether they would welcome it too.
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I had the pleasure of being seated at dinner last week next to our right honourable friend Mr Kenneth Clarke but that he did not talk to me, whereas the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was opposite, was quite chatty? I particularly enjoyed a long conversation with our coalition partner the Viscount Thurso, who is of course a Member of the House of Commons.
Lord Strathclyde
It is immensely interesting to hear of my noble friend’s dining partners and the conversations that he had. I hope that he will update us regularly.
Lord Tomlinson
My Lords, the Statement is in two parts. Might I ask a question about each? On the terrorist incident, perhaps the noble Lord could explain why the Prime Minister was not informed about the terrorist threat at East Midlands Airport until lunchtime on Saturday, when it became quite clear yesterday, in the answers given by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, that other Ministers in the Cabinet knew some hours earlier. I hope that he can explain that to us.
Turning to the European Council, I noticed with great interest that the noble Lord read over it very quickly, without his customary emphasis. He was, of course, trying to divert us from some of its content. First, we have it quite clearly in the Statement that,
“we voted for a freeze seeking to block the 2.9 per cent”.
But then a few sentences later, it says:
“So before the Council started we began building an alliance to take a different approach and insist on 2.9”.
We had the spectacle of our Prime Minister almost trying to deceive the people of this country by standing on the steps of the Council and claiming that he was going in there to fight for a zero increase when, as we now know from his Statement, he had before going into the Council meeting tried to build an alliance for 2.9 per cent. Does he think it an honest way of dealing with Parliament and the British people to try to pretend that he was fighting for a freeze on the one hand when, before he went in to fight for it, he was already seeking an alliance to support 2.9 per cent?
Will the noble Lord concede that if he really wants to get to grips with budget discipline, he should not be arguing just about the size of the budget? It would be helpful if he and his Government took a lead in supporting some of the ideas that came from members of the budgetary control committee—including me when I was there—to start introducing a serious attempt at zero-based budgeting, so that you look at budget lines afresh each year rather than just looking at the budget as it was and adding a bit more to it. That would be a serious attempt at budget discipline.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I cannot help the noble Lord on his question about the terrorist incident. I am sorry that he did not have the opportunity to ask my noble friend yesterday when she made the Statement.
I do not know what the noble Lord has been dreaming about on the role of the Prime Minister, the 2.9 per cent, when it was agreed and so on. I am utterly clear that unless the Prime Minister had taken a firm stand on the 2.9 per cent, we could well have seen what happened before—it happened last year when the Labour Government were in charge—where the negotiation between the Council and the Parliament ended up with a middle way, a sort of halfway house between the two figures. We wanted to avoid that; we wanted to ensure that not one extra pound should be spent, and that is what has happened. I also note that the noble Lord would have been perfectly happy to have signed up to 6 per cent. That is what most of his colleagues did in the European Council, and it is of course the cost that has increased exponentially over the past few years.
As for the question on budget discipline, we are trying to give direction and budget discipline to the European Union by sticking out for the agreement of 2.9 per cent.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, does my noble friend the Leader of the House recall that almost the last act performed by Mr Blair before he stepped down as Prime Minister was to sell this country down the river by surrendering, for nothing in return, a large and growing part of the UK rebate that had been negotiated by my noble friend Lady Thatcher? There were unworthy thoughts that he may have been interested in the job as president of the European Union at the time; I am sure that could not have been the reason, but certainly he got nothing whatever in return. Will my noble friend, who is such an ornament of the present Government, give an undertaking that this Government will not surrender any of what remains of the British rebate?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, anyone would think that I had planted that question with my noble friend, but he will readily confirm that I did not. He is correct on both counts: not only did the former Prime Minister, Mr Blair, surrender a large part of our rebate—worth, I think, some £8 billion—and get absolutely nothing in return, but I can give a firm commitment that under this Government no more of the rebate will be handed back.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, mention is made in the Statement of a military treaty between France and our country. When will we be likely to get the detail of such a treaty? My thoughts go to the fact that every service man and woman in this country gives allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen, but it could be that those commanding them do not give such an oath of allegiance.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Martin, asks a good question. It is not that I am trying to duck out of it, but my noble friend Lord Astor of Hever will be repeating a Statement at a convenient moment after 4.30 pm, and I am sure that he will be able to give the noble Lord an answer.
Lord Grenfell
My Lords, I put two brief questions to the noble Lord the Leader of the House. We now know that from now on the EU budget must reflect what we are doing in our own countries. Let us suppose that the debt and deficit position in this country and others in Europe is put back on a sustainable path. Would that mean that a Conservative or a Conservative/Liberal Democrat Government would continue to oppose any increase in the budget, although the situation had changed?
My second question concerns the bailout. We are told that it is,
“absolutely in our national interest that Britain is not drawn into having to help with any future bailout”.
You do not have to be outside the eurozone to share that ambition, but is it not inconsistent with the preceding sentence, which is:
“It is in our national interest that Europe avoids being paralysed by another debt crisis as it was with Greece in May”?
God forbid that the United Kingdom should ever find itself in the same position as Greece, but if it did would it mean that the Government would be ideologically and firmly opposed to anybody helping us out?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, on the second question, if a tragedy occurred and we needed to be bailed out—as we have been in the past, sometimes—there is no reason why we should not go to the IMF. That is what the IMF is for. I think the point behind the noble Lord’s first question was that if we were in a different position and budgetary environment, would we be ideologically opposed ever to seeing an increase in the budget? Some of us would be very opposed to seeing an increase in the EU budget when there are still so many uncertainties and inefficiencies built into the process of budget-making, grant-making and handing out money. We would like to see a comprehensive review of how this money is spent so that there is firm control by member states and the Commission over how it is all done.
Lord Waddington
My Lords, an undertaking was given that the setting up of the European External Action Service would be revenue-neutral. Have the strongest representations been made to the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, that the overall overrun that has been announced is quite unacceptable and, if one looks at some of the expenses now contemplated by the European External Action Service, clearly avoidable? If representations are not made about this clear breach of faith, I shall be very disappointed in Her Majesty’s Government.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend is right that certain considerations were discussed at the passage of the Lisbon treaty. Indeed, as a party, we rather opposed the setting up of the External Action Service. However, it is a fact that it is being set up. The noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, is in charge. It needs to be supported. As part of our general opposition to increase in expenditure, we have made several points about the EU budget. I am not aware that we have specifically raised the EAS annual budget, which will be £5.8 billion—a substantial amount of money. However, we hope that as it is rolled out it will be to the benefit of not just the European Commission but the member states of the European Union.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, there is a connection between the first and second parts of the Prime Minister’s Statement. While any genuine attempt to reduce waste and inefficiency in the European Union’s institutions will be welcomed by all of us, can the Government guarantee that the work of the European Union in development activity, peacebuilding and peacekeeping—which will contribute to our security as well as that of the developing world—will not be affected by the decisions that were made last week in Brussels?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I think I can give the noble Lord that assurance. He knows that the Government have given an absolute priority to meeting the target of spending 0.7 per cent of gross national income on overseas aid by 2013. We remain committed to that. We wish to work closely with our European partners so that they also achieve that target. Therefore, I see no reason why there should be any slippage in that aim.
Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, this is a very short question. The House will be aware that the EU budget has not been approved by the Court of Auditors for 14 years. With the help of the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, who knows more about this than I, we raised this matter with the Government in May. I have not, alas, seen the paperwork. That is not the fault of the Government; they have to negotiate with other powers. I have tabled a Question for Short Debate on whether the grounds on which the Court of Auditors has not approved the budget for 14 years should be examined. That will be a matter for the House in due course.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend said he had a short question, but it is a huge subject. I look forward to his debate. It is completely unacceptable that the European Court of Auditors has not been able to sign off the EU accounts. I understand that the majority of the errors are not due to fraud but to the sheer complexity of the rules and regulations. We need to address the root cause and press for simplification of EU financial management alongside reform of the budget itself.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, I wish to ask the noble Lord about economic governance and the German Chancellor’s proposal to revise the treaty. Why are the Government agreeing to that? Can any country now propose changes to the treaty? Will he assure me that the Government will indeed have a referendum if there is any change in the treaty at all?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, on economic governance, we take very seriously the stability of the eurozone. Some 40 per cent of our exports go into the eurozone and 50 per cent of our exports go to the EU, so it is a massively important market to us and financial stability is important. However, we maintain two things: first, we would rather not see a change in the treaty; and, secondly, we would rather not see any change involving a transfer of powers from the UK to the EU. We are not certain that a treaty amendment is required, but if it is and we are assured that there is no such transfer of powers, a referendum in this country would be unnecessary. If there were a transfer of powers, we would not agree to it.
Legislation: Pre-legislative Scrutiny
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Campbell of Alloway
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether drafts of all their Bills should be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
No, my Lords. Although we are committed to bringing forward as many draft Bills as possible, it is not always possible to do so—for instance, where Bills have deadlines for Royal Assent. This Session, the Government will publish in draft at least four Bills.
Lord Campbell of Alloway
I thank my noble friend the Leader of the House for having taken this Question, which has constitutional effect. May I, by leave, ask two questions for clarification? What consideration have the Government given to the three group reports that favoured mandatory reforms of pre-legislative scrutiny of draft government Bills, as was spoken to—I see the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, looking at me—on three occasions: 25 January, 28 February and 12 July? The other question is very short: to ask whether and, if so, when a new formal, wholly effective structure shall be set up?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my noble friend is entirely correct that this is an important issue. For some years now there has been good practice from the former Government and this Government in attempting to publish Bills in draft and apply a process of pre-legislative scrutiny. The reason why there is not a mandatory structure for this is in part that it is not possible to have formal pre-legislative scrutiny early on in the Parliament. Some departments, through the process of consultation and the publication of Green Papers and White Papers, already allow for a certain element of pre-legislative scrutiny, although not necessarily the one preferred by my noble friend.
Lord Grenfell
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House concede that pleading resource constraint does not constitute a credible argument against publishing as many Bills as possible in draft? Does he recall what the Liaison Committee in another place concluded in 2001 in its report, Shifting the Balance: Unfinished Business? It said:
“We repeat our view that the benefits in terms of better thought out and properly examined legislation will be out of all proportion to the modest expenditure involved”.
Is that not still true today?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I had not yet raised the question of resources. Although resources count, they should not necessarily be the be-all and end-all of the subject. I do not wish to give the impression that the Government are in any way opposed to pre-legislative scrutiny. We are committed to it; it improves the quality of legislation and provides an opportunity for public engagement. We have a group, chaired by my noble friend Lord Goodlad, looking at working practices, and I know for a racing certainty that this is one of the issues that it will be looking at.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, I recognise my noble friend’s role in engaging with our Liaison Committee in this House, but would the Government be prepared to invite Members of both Houses to consider the wise recommendations of the Constitution Committee, as far back as 2004, that the two Houses should establish a Joint Liaison Committee so that the opinions and particular expertise of this House could be fully taken into account in considering whether or not to establish Joint Committees for pre-legislative scrutiny?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there is no bar to Joint Committees of both Houses being involved in pre-legislative scrutiny. We have already proposed that, this Session, there should be a Joint Committee on pre-legislative scrutiny when a draft Bill is published on the future of your Lordships’ House. Whether there should be a formalised structure of a Joint Liaison Committee is another matter altogether, and one that I am certainly prepared to consider.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, does the noble Lord the Leader of the House agree that it is especially important that constitutional Bills have pre-legislative scrutiny? I recognise the difficulties he cited about it being early in this Parliament, but might he not regret the fact that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill came so early in this Parliament? That is a Bill that should have been subject to pre-legislative scrutiny. May I also suggest to him that the Public Bodies Bill should be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny? There has been little or no consultation on it but it will affect millions of our citizens.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not agree with either the general premise of the noble Baroness’s argument or the specific examples. The Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill was published on 22 July and the Committee stage in another place did not begin until October. So there was plenty of time, albeit there was a Summer Recess, for it to be examined.
Lord Norton of Louth
My Lords, does my noble friend agree with me that there should be a presumption in favour of pre-legislative scrutiny? Does he think it desirable that if a Bill is brought forward without pre-legislative scrutiny, the Minister sponsoring the Bill should at least make a Statement to Parliament explaining why the Bill has not been so subject?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend will find as the Parliament gathers pace that there are more and more Bills for pre-legislative scrutiny. I made the case at the beginning that—in the very first Session of a Parliament, particularly when many of the ideas we are bringing forward were tested at the anvil of election and, indeed, while we were in opposition—it would be unfair to have a mandatory basis for pre-legislative scrutiny.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, perhaps I may remind the Government of a Bill that they introduced early in the 1992-97 Parliament—a raves Bill dealing with the tragic deaths of young people in nightclubs in Scotland. It was a three-clause Bill and we subjected it to pre-legislative scrutiny. The major clause was the third one. The then Minister, after the pre-legislative scrutiny and the visits we made, informed me that the Government were withdrawing that clause. Does that not tell us that Parliament, left on its own, can foul up in the most magnificent way, and therefore that the need for pre-legislative scrutiny of every Bill is urgent?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I totally agree with the broad thrust of the noble Lord’s argument—that pre-legislative scrutiny is important and useful. The noble Lord is also right. If you look at many of the Bills that were passed over the last 13 years, you wonder how many of them would have been improved with a bit more pre-legislative scrutiny.
Black Rod
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I am sure that the House will wish to know that the Lord Speaker and the Clerk of the Parliaments have received a letter from Sir Freddie Viggers announcing his decision to resign as Black Rod. Black Rod, or Sir Freddie as we have come to know him, continues to make a remarkable recovery from a serious illness in May. However, I am sure that the House will respect his decision to resign, which I know he made with great reluctance.
This is not the moment for the House to pay tributes. As is customary, the House will have the opportunity to express its appreciation to Sir Freddie for the excellent service that he has given as Black Rod when his successor is appointed by the House. Until the appointment is made, the House will be grateful to the Yeoman Usher, Lieutenant Colonel Ted Lloyd-Jukes, for continuing as acting Black Rod.
Finally, on behalf of the whole House, the Lord Speaker has written to Sir Freddie, sending him very best wishes for a continued recovery and to his wife Jane and family.
Freedom of Information (Time for Compliance with Request) Regulations 2010
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the draft orders and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.
Business of the House
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debates on the Motions in the names of Baroness Perry of Southwark and Lord Hunt of Wirral set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.