Brexit: European Union Citizenship

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they are planning to protect the European Union citizenship status of United Kingdom citizens who were born after the United Kingdom joined the European Union on 1 January 1973.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, when the United Kingdom is no longer a member state of the European Union, British nationals who are not nationals of another EU member state will no longer be EU citizens. In terms of UK citizens already living in the EU, the Prime Minister has been clear that the Government want to protect their status in the same way as we want to protect the status of EU nationals already living here.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, I would be happy if the Minister will advise me how I can explain to my grandchildren how a leave vote of 18 million can affect the status of 65 million—the whole population of the UK—and that that vote seeks to deny them a fundamental right which they have. That is especially true for those born since 1 January 1973, when we joined the Union. The birthright of half the population of the UK is now being denied to them. Will the Minister explain that, please?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

Yes, my Lords, I can explain in one word—the referendum, a point which the noble Lord made earlier. I can totally understand and sense the passion with which he speaks but this was a decision taken by the British people. The actual Act to introduce that referendum was passed in the other place by six to one. It is a manifesto commitment from this Government to respect the outcome and that is what we will do.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, many of the officials working currently in EU institutions fall into this category and appear not to have been consulted by the Government or by my noble friend the Minister’s department as to what their future status will be. Will he undertake to give an early commitment to meet as many of these British officials as possible, and possibly rely on their good offices and knowledge for the help that his department will undoubtedly require in preparing Britain for Brexit?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I thank my noble friend for drawing my attention to that point and I will indeed look into it straight after Question Time. I was under the impression that we were in talks about those issues, but clearly I need to look into that and I will write to my noble friend.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, we look forward to the publication tomorrow of our EU Select Committee’s report on acquired rights. Does the Minister acknowledge that Brexit would take an axe to the valuable EU rights that individuals have either as consumers, as we discussed yesterday, or as citizens, workers and students? Is that not why it is so important to let British voters decide whether they can support any eventual Brexit deal once they see its full implications for their lives and their families’ lives?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am sorry to say that I disagree entirely with the noble Baroness’s final point about a second referendum. As regards the first point about rights, I draw her attention to the great repeal Bill, the whole premise of which is to transpose EU law into UK law, and to the commitment given by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to ensure that workers’ rights are fundamentally protected.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

Respecting the Brexit decision, sooner or later the Government will have to deal with the issues of Brexit-related migration and market access—and in a way that seeks to unite the whole country and not just the 52% whom they are dealing with at the moment. To do so fairly, the Government surely have to look at issuing ID cards to all those resident here at the time of Brexit. Does this form part of the Government’s Brexit plans, currently actively under consideration?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I start by welcoming the noble Lord to his place, and I look forward to other interesting questions such as that one. The Home Office is obviously looking at the Government’s plans and proposals for immigration post-Brexit, and I am sure that it will bring forward its proposals in due course.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that part of being a democrat—either a Liberal Democrat or another sort of democrat—means that one should respect democracy? When the good people of this country have voted to leave the EU, we should get on with it and not listen to discredited people such as Mr Clegg or Mr Blair, who say that we should not.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My noble friend speaks with such passion. I just remember what the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, said in the minutes before the referendum result:

“It is our duty as those who serve the public to make sure the country does the best it can with the decision they have taken. In. Out. When the British people have spoken you do what they command”.

[Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not quite wrong that any citizen should be left in any doubt about this issue, as people undoubtedly are? Will the Minister personally vouch that this issue will be cleared up? People should not be left in any doubt at all.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I thank the noble Lord for that. If he is referring to the issue of UK nationals in the EU and EU nationals in the UK, I assure him that the Prime Minister and the entire Government wish to see it addressed as quickly as possible.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

The Minister referred to discussions in the Home Office in response to the question of identity cards. Are any discussions at all going on in the Home Office about the introduction of some kind of identity documentation?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

Not to my knowledge, my Lords.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that if the Government, in a gesture of friendship towards the other 27 nations of the European Union, made it abundantly plain that we would not use EU nationals as a bargaining counter, the negotiations would get off to a very much more positive start?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I note what my noble friend has said, and I also absolutely note the strength of feeling on this issue in this House and the other place. I am sure that my ministerial colleagues and others will bear that in mind in the weeks ahead.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, will the Government explain to all those British citizens who have been issued with European driving licences what the process will be for transferring them back into UK licences and when that will happen? Does he consider this to be a slight problem?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Viscount puts his finger on another of the myriad issues that my department and others are thinking about.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

Will the Minister explain why the Government were happy to give a referendum to the British people when they did not know what the outcome of the negotiations would be, yet the Minister feels it would be inappropriate for them to have a vote when they do know the implications?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, we believe that we should honour the result of the referendum. Full stop. Period.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, I too accept the result of the referendum and accept that Britain must leave. However, the NHS played a major part in that referendum, and it is beginning to fall apart. It depends entirely—entirely—on overseas staff working in it. Will the Minister pressurise his colleagues to guarantee that those who have spent years working in the NHS will be allowed to stay in Britain?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord makes a passionate point and I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all those who work in the NHS, wherever they come from. I am sure that that issue, as well as the myriad other issues regarding immigration, is one that my colleagues, especially in the Home Office, will take account of.

Brexit: Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government at what stage, or stages, of the negotiations to leave the European Union they expect to meet the requirements of Part 2 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, the precise terms on which we leave the EU will be determined by the negotiations that follow the triggering of Article 50. These negotiations have yet to begin. It is therefore premature to speculate about timetables. However, the Government take seriously, and will comply with, all the constitutional and legal obligations that apply to the deal that we negotiate with the EU.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords, this is an Act of this Parliament—nothing to do with Europe or Brussels but good British law. I would have expected by now, six months since the referendum, that the Government would be setting out in detail how they expect Parliament to respond to the initiatives on treaties. It is our statutory responsibility to scrutinise and ratify treaties. Can the Minister give us a little more detail? He is being incredibly coy. It is as if he and his colleagues were frightened of what Parliament might do. Could he at least indicate that this could be part of the subject of the White Paper that I hope he and his colleagues are going to produce?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am sorry that I am being coy, my Lords. We have set out where Parliament will indeed be playing a very crucial role in the repeal of the European Communities Act, and Parliament—and this House—has been doing a tremendous amount of very useful scrutiny and work in the EU Select Committee and elsewhere. We will indeed look at what steps will be taken through the process, but I am not able to go further at this stage.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

Is not the essence of the European Union the single market? If you leave one, you leave the other and, for that matter, if you leave the other, you leave the one.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, the Government have set out very clearly what they intend to do in terms of the principles as regards leaving the EU, and we have made it clear that we will publish, as we intended, a plan in due course.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, the report that has come out today from one of our committees, Brexit: The Options for Trade, says that a clear game plan is needed on trade and that it is unlikely that a bespoke EU trade agreement can be agreed within the two-year period, so a transitional deal will be vital. Could the Minister confirm that the transitional deal, as well as the final one, will be put before both Houses?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am sorry to say that it is slightly premature for me to start commenting on all these points as regards the negotiations, which have yet to begin. As for transition, I have said at this Dispatch Box, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has said, the Prime Minister has said and the Chancellor of the Exchequer said yesterday that we wish to have a smooth and orderly exit from the EU. That is in this country’s interests and in the interests of many right across Europe—and, indeed, that is what I have been hearing up and down the length and breadth of the country. As for our plan, it will be revealed in due course.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that this week there is a string of six reports coming out from the European Select Committee, of which, I hasten to add, I am not a member? They are filled with wisdom, if the two that I have read so far are anything to go by. I am sure he will take them away for Christmas and read them. The normal practice is that the Government respond to such reports within two months. That is rather awkward timing, given the commitment to produce a plan and the possible need to produce legislation. Can the Minister guarantee that the Government’s response to those six reports will be available to the House before we debate either the legislation or the plan, so that we know how they are reacting to them?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

First, I repeat what I said a moment ago: I thank the European Select Committees for their work. Christmas is indeed coming early for my department: there are large numbers of very useful contributions to the debate coming out. I am assured by my noble friend the Chief Whip that there are likely to be opportunities for debates on these reports in the near future. I will reflect on the other points which the noble Lord made.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister made reference to the good reports coming from committees of this House, which I am sure would include the EU Select Committee and the Constitution Committee. In the light of that, will he share with us the fundamental reason why the Government refused to act sensibly and in good faith after 23 June? By making Parliament their partner in the Article 50 process and treating it as an equal, they would have obviated the litigation which involves so much delay—and angels on a pinhead—and acted in political and constitutional good faith.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I dispute the premise of the noble Baroness’s question. The Government are treating Parliament with a great deal of respect. Regarding the legal case, the Government’s position has been clear all along. It is now a matter for the Supreme Court, whose judgment we await with great interest.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, how long is transitional?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, the noble Lord asks a very interesting question. I will repeat my point that the Government intend the exit to be smooth and orderly. I am not going to go beyond that.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, will the Government consider listing all the specific, individual areas that they intend to negotiate in this process?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am terribly sorry to say that the noble Viscount is going to have to wait for the plan on that point.

[Lord Harrison (Lab)]

Are the Government frit?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am certainly not frit: I am here to answer questions and I will remain here to answer questions from the noble Lord and others.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, are there not great dangers in setting out specifically what we want from these negotiations when many European countries are holding elections and will go to great lengths to tell us that we cannot have anything we are asking for?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, my noble friend is right that we obviously need to strike a balance in the plan between providing your Lordships, the other place and the public as a whole with our overall broad strategic direction and ensuring that the Government still have a negotiating position that preserves the national interest in the negotiations.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, there has been reference to good faith. Is it worth reflecting that, in good faith, this House passed the referendum Bill, allowing the people to make a decision? In good faith, the people decided that the United Kingdom should leave the European Union. Is it not now a matter of good faith that, properly, the House should implement the decision of the British public?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord. That is our duty. He hits the nail absolutely on the head. We need to do all those things. We will present our plan to this House in good faith.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has said several times that we are leaving the European Union, not leaving Europe. Will the Minister explain how we make sure that, in leaving Europe, we maintain the close relations with the other members of the EU which will be necessary after we have left?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord makes a good point about our wish to retain the ability to co-operate where there are matters of mutual self-interest and national interest, as we have said all along. I am sure that this will be set out in the weeks and months ahead.

Article 50 (Constitution Committee Report)

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to be likened to a brick wall. When my wife says that talking to me is like talking to a brick wall I shall remind her that it is a compliment.

I thank the members of the Constitution Committee and the European Select Committee not just for securing this debate but for their extremely interesting and useful reports. I also thank all noble Lords who contributed to this very good debate.

From the outset I want to stress the importance that I personally attach not just to the role of Parliament but to the Select Committees in the process before us. I hope to continue to draw on the invaluable expertise and experience that I have heard, and been able to use, in recent months. I intend to continue to have as many meetings as I can with members of those committees. I am grateful to the Constitution Committee for agreeing to extend the deadline for the Government’s response to its report given the legal sensitivities that currently exist. I assure noble Lords that the Government will respond formally to the EU Select Committee’s report in line with the usual timeframe.

However, clearly this debate gives me an opportunity to set out the Government’s thinking on a number of the issues raised this afternoon, and I shall begin by outlining the guiding principles that underpin our approach. The first principle is one of which noble Lords will be well aware—that we must respect the view of the electorate expressed on 23 June to leave the European Union. The Government, as I have said before at this Dispatch Box, are determined to deliver on what the people of the United Kingdom voted for. There must be no attempts to rejoin the EU through the back door and no second referendum. On that point I welcome the comments made previously by the shadow Leader of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that the Opposition will not seek to block Brexit. I hope that that approach will be followed by all sides of the House and, meanwhile, that the scrutiny of the process of the legislation will be constructive, as I am sure it will be, with this House exercising its usual discipline and restraint.

The second principle is that we respect and value the role of Parliament, and the third principle is to negotiate in the national interest. I bracket those two principles together, as clearly a balance needs to be struck if we are to respect both those principles. We do indeed want to be as open and transparent as we can with Parliament. However, it is also crucial, as a number of your Lordships have said this afternoon and previously, that the Government negotiate from the strongest position possible. Revealing too much information before triggering Article 50 will, as a number of your Lordships know, weaken our hand. Indeed, the EU Committee of this House has noted that point. Getting the balance right is clearly a core aspect of the debate today, as my noble friends Lord Boswell and Lord Lang said, and it is something on which we are very focused—a point I will return to.

The final principle governing our approach is to respect the rule of law and abide by due process. That obviously means respecting the ruling of the Supreme Court as regards Article 50, and respecting the independence of the judiciary. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, I thoroughly concur with what my noble and learned friend, Lord Keen, said a couple of weeks ago at this Dispatch Box:

“My Lords, we have a judiciary of the highest calibre”.

Sadly, however—and I say this as a journalist myself—that cannot always be said of the media and the press. As my noble and learned friend also said:

“Sensationalist and ill-informed attacks can undermine public confidence in the judiciary, but our public can have every confidence in our judiciary, a confidence which I believe must be shared by the Executive”.—[Official Report, 8/11/16; col. 1029.]

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I am grateful for that, but it does not really answer the question. The question is not whether the Government are in favour of the independence of the judiciary but whether they dissociate themselves from the appalling remarks made in the press about the judgment in the High Court.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I think I did answer that point. I am sorry to say that some comments in the media can at times be sensationalist, but at the same time, we obviously want to respect the freedom of the press. Above all, in this case, I concur with the thrust of the noble Lord’s point: we absolutely must respect the rulings of the Supreme Court in this case and the independence of the judiciary. Respecting the rule of law and abiding by due process also means respecting our obligations and responsibilities as a member of the EU up until the day we leave, and respecting parliamentary precedent and procedure as regards the legislation that we shall need to pass as we leave the European Union.

With those principles in mind, I shall approach the issues we are debating under two broad headings: first, the process we are following, up to and including the triggering of Article 50; and secondly, the process that will follow. Let me first, very briefly, chart the democratic process that has been followed so far to leave the European Union, which my noble friend Lord Hunt referred to, in an attempt to bring out the interaction between representative and parliamentary democracy on the one hand, and direct democracy on the other.

In 2013, as your Lordships will remember, the then Prime Minister announced that if a Conservative majority Government were to be elected, they would deliver an in/out referendum—a policy which was in the Conservative Party manifesto. The people voted for that Government, and MPs then voted—by a majority of six to one—to hold a referendum. In the referendum campaign, the Government made it clear that they would respect and implement what the people decide. The referendum itself delivered a bigger popular vote for Brexit than that won by any UK Government in history. The people have therefore voted twice: once for a Government to give them a referendum and then in the referendum itself. Parliament voted to give them that referendum without any conditions attached as to the result.

I heard what my noble friend Lord Higgins and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, said about their being non-believers in referendums in our parliamentary democracy, but that argument was meant for when Parliament and this House were debating the referendum itself. I hear what has been said but think that it is now an argument for another day.

Regarding the role of referendums in our parliamentary democracy, I think that my noble friend Lord Lang quoted that noted jurist and constitutionalist, AV Dicey. I too would like to quote AV Dicey. Back in 1911, he wrote that the referendum is the only institution that could,

“give formal acknowledgement of the doctrine which lies at the basis of English democracy—that a law depends at bottom for its enactment on the consent of the nation as represented by its electors”.

The referendum, he wrote,

“is an emphatic assertion of the principle that nation stands above parties”.

I turn now to the actual process of triggering Article 50. It is the rule of law—the principle that I referred to earlier—that has guided the Government’s approach. I am certainly in agreement with paragraph 9 of the Constitution Committee’s report: Article 50 is the only lawful route through which the United Kingdom can leave the EU under the treaties. As a matter of policy, the Government’s view is that, once given, our notification will not be withdrawn. We are committed to leaving in accordance with any legal and constitutional requirements that may apply. The Government have outlined their case and what we believe is the right and proper process to leave the EU under domestic law following established precedent with regard to international affairs.

As your Lordships will know, we have argued that triggering Article 50 is a prerogative power and one that can be exercised by the Government. It is constitutionally proper to give effect to the referendum in this way. As such, we disagree with the judgment of the High Court in England and Wales and are appealing that decision. The Government therefore await the final decision by the Supreme Court and, as I have said, we will abide by its decision. Let me repeat once again: the Government fully respect the independent role of the judiciary in deciding those cases.

I hope your Lordships will understand if I refrain from entering any further into the specifics of the ongoing legal challenge. There will be a hearing in the Supreme Court beginning on 5 December. It is expected to last four days, and a judgment will be reached in due course after that. But whatever happens in the Supreme Court, there will be further parliamentary scrutiny before Article 50 is triggered. We have been making time available for a series of Brexit-themed debates in the other place and in this place which will allow Parliament to make its views clear on a variety of topics. We welcome this House’s likewise debating this but I also note—how could I not?—the recommendations in the report and the numerous contributions made from all sides of the House today regarding the Government’s approach to the negotiations and the scrutiny of our position before those negotiations —or stage 1, as the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, called it—and furthermore, as he rightly said, the application of the lessons learned from the debates held in this place and the other place and the extensive consultation that the Government are having with business. There were a number of powerful contributions on that point, especially from the noble Lords, Lord Kerr, Lord Teverson, Lord Maclennan and Lord Hannay, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, to name just a few. Naturally, when we trigger Article 50, we want people to be aware of our overall approach, not least to give as much certainty and clarity as we can, and to build a national consensus.

I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Kerr —one of his balls is disappearing into a hedge. I am sorry that all I can say at this stage is that we have noted the calls for this and we will consider the best approach, taking into account what has been said in today’s debate and in the Select Committee’s report. The issues around Brexit, as I have said at this Dispatch Box before, are indeed highly complex, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said. They deserve very careful consideration, including as the Government continue to consider the customs union.

One of the issues raised in a number of noble Lords’ speeches is, for example, a transitional arrangement. I and my ministerial colleagues are fully aware of this issue in discussions that we have had with representatives of the financial services sector and of other industries right across the board. We have said that we wish the process of Brexit to be as orderly and as smooth as possible—a point which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister repeated at the CBI yesterday. We very much hope that our European partners will also see such an approach as in their interest too, as trade is obviously two-way. I assure your Lordships that we are looking at this issue among all the others that have been raised.

I would also like to address the point that a number of your Lordships made, including my noble friend Lord MacGregor—the position of EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals there. I would draw his and your Lordships’ attention to what the Prime Minister said at the CBI yesterday—that she wants an early agreement in the status of UK nationals in Europe and EU nationals here.

As regards the process of drawing up our negotiating position—

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I wonder if the noble Lord could come back yet again to a suggestion that was made in this House several times but that the Prime Minister did not cover, which is to say clearly that we on our side—the United Kingdom—will not call into question the rights of EU citizens in our country unless anyone else does that to our citizens. If we were to say that, it would make it quite clear, beyond peradventure, that we were not going to raise that issue in a negative sense. Why cannot we say that?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I hear the point that the noble Lord makes with his considerable experience. All I would say is that the Government’s position is clear and, as I said, the Prime Minister wishes to have an early agreement on this issue. I cannot go further than that right now.

I would like to go on to refer to a couple of points that the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, made about the involvement of the devolved Administrations in the process of establishing our negotiating position. As has been said before, we will give every opportunity for the devolved Administrations to have their say as we form our strategy and we will look at suggestions that they put forward. As regards mechanism, the joint ministerial committee has been set up to enable discussions with devolved Administrations and government and has started to meet.

I turn to parliamentary scrutiny once Article 50 has been triggered. There are three strands of activity that I am sure Parliament will wish to scrutinise: the process of the negotiations themselves, the outcome of those negotiations and the passage of the great repeal Bill.

I start with the scrutiny of the negotiations. I welcome the fact that your Lordships, especially the Select Committees, are thinking hard about how your Lordships can co-ordinate scrutiny of my department’s work and the negotiations overall. Clearly, the Commons Select Committee for Exiting the EU as well as your Lordships’ EU Committee and its sub-committees will play crucial roles. But as the EU Select Committee report highlights, the issue of what information should be made available, and when, is a matter that we clearly need to agree upon. We have committed as a Government—and I commit again here—that Parliament will have access to at least as much information as members of the European Parliament. That is a point that my noble friend Lord Higgins referred to, as did the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and the noble Lord, Lord Beith.

The EU Select Committee’s report goes into helpful detail in exploring what information the European Parliament will receive. I am very grateful for that. I assure your Lordships that my ministerial colleagues and I are considering the mechanisms for transmitting this information in such a way as to ensure that there can be timely debate and scrutiny on the negotiations, while at the same time ensuring that complete confidentiality can be maintained. For example, we are closely watching the recently opened TTIP reading rooms to see what the advantages and disadvantages of this approach are. Of course, we do not yet know the extent to which the previous and most relevant precedents will be followed by the institutions of the EU, not least because there is no direct precedent for an exit negotiation of the kind that we are about to enter into, so we do not yet know precisely what level of information the European Parliament will receive. However, your Lordships should be in no doubt that we will honour the commitment that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State gave to the committee.

The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, referred to the role of Select Committees in this House and the co-operation between them. I am aware that the Senior Deputy Speaker—the noble Lord, Lord McFall—and the Liaison Committee, which he chairs, have been on the front foot in seeking to ensure that the work of your Lordships’ committees benefits from closer than normal communication and co-operation between committees. He has established an informal forum in which the chairmen of the relevant investigative and legislative Select Committees will share notes to try to avoid unnecessary duplication of effort. The Government stand ready to lend their assistance to this forum, as well as to continue to talk directly to the committees themselves, when called upon to do so. I will certainly reflect on the noble Earl’s points about the media and communications.

As regards the end of the negotiations, as I have said before, the Government will observe in full all relevant legal and constitutional obligations that apply. The precise timing, terms and means by which we leave the EU will be determined by the negotiations that follow the triggering of Article 50. The Government, though, are very clear about the obligations of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. That Act is clear that both Houses of Parliament have a role in approving treaties as set out in the Act, which is a point my noble friend Lord Inglewood raised.

The noble Lord, Lord Beith, referred to the great repeal Bill. This will be a significant piece of legislation. As with any legislation, parliamentary scrutiny is invaluable, and it will certainly be invaluable on this. We are indeed considering the very best approach to ensure that Parliament, including the various committees, has the appropriate opportunities to scrutinise the Bill. We will set out the content of the Bill in due course and the best approach to involving Parliament in a meaningful way in what will be a very important piece of legislation.

There are a number of other excellent points in these reports which bear close consideration. My noble friend Lord Balfe and others talked about the role of this Parliament and others in creating close links with the European Parliament. I should mention that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State was in Brussels today talking to MEPs. I entirely endorse the points that were made in the committee’s report about the role that Parliament can play in this process.

The electorate’s decision to leave the European Union was indeed a pivotal moment in our nation’s history. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said last week, the role of Parliament is clearly not to block Britain’s departure but to scrutinise the steps that the Government now take in delivering it. The issue at hand is the balance we strike between, on the one hand, transparency and accountability, and, on the other, protecting the national interest and not binding the Government’s hands. Getting this balance right is something that the Government are completely focused on. From this debate, I know that your Lordships are very mindful of that. Each of us knows the responsibilities that we have in this House to kick the tyres of government policy, which may be uncomfortable for those of us standing at this Dispatch Box. But each of us also knows that, as Members of an unelected Chamber, there are limits to what we might do. In the weeks and months ahead, I am sure that your Lordships will reflect carefully on getting this balance right, as the Government most certainly will do.

I remain committed to working with your Lordships and involving this House as much as we can in the months ahead. I once again thank all those who have spoken tonight, and I thank above all those who have contributed to the work of the committees for their contributions to the debate. I am sure that there will be more to come.

United Kingdom: Single Market

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taverne]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to publish a green paper on the cases for and against the United Kingdom remaining a member of the Single Market.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government will seek the right deal to give UK businesses the maximum access to, and freedom to trade with and operate in, the single market. We have committed to keep Parliament and the public informed of our thinking and we will uphold that commitment. However, we will not risk compromising our ability to negotiate in the national interest, so as to protect the long-term prosperity of the UK.

[Lord Taverne (LD)]

My Lords, with respect, that answer is not more informative than the oft-repeated statement that “Brexit means Brexit”, which is about as revealing as a statement that breakfast means breakfast —except that the recently leaked memo to the Cabinet Office suggests, and indeed confirms, that the Government’s approach to Brexit so far is something of a dog’s breakfast. The Conservative manifesto said, emphatically:

“We say: yes to the Single Market”.

If Parliament is now to take a role, and I am sure that the Government could benefit in these negotiations from some of the expertise in this Chamber, is it not time for the Government to at least allow us to debate how they see the pros and cons of our relationships with the single market, which is perhaps the most important issue at stake? This is highly relevant to the assurances given to Nissan.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, we are absolutely determined to have as much debate as we can on these issues; the Government are committed to this. I have had extremely informative conversations with a number of noble Lords on all sides of the House. We have also listened to and read with interest the debates that have taken place. I say again that we are going to seek the maximum access to, and freedom to trade with and operate in, the single market. There is clearly a range of ways in which that might be achieved. Noble Lords will know of the relationships that Turkey, Switzerland and Norway all have with the single market. However, as the Government have said, we are looking at these options but intend to take a bespoke approach.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Does my noble friend recall the Japanese soldiers who were found in the 1950s still fighting the Second World War long after it had finished? Will he gently point out to the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, and the Liberal Democrat Benches that we have already had a government paper setting out the arguments for the UK remaining a member of the single market? It was published during the referendum campaign, and that view was overwhelmingly rejected by the British people.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My noble friend is absolutely right: 17.4 million people voted to leave and we are determined to deliver on that. We are now assessing the options open to us in a methodical and measured way, and we intend to continue to do so. I hope the Liberal Democrats will note that those 17.4 million people expect us to deliver on this. Clearly, they expect the unelected Chamber to contribute to that debate but, obviously, they would look pretty dimly on us if we were to block the measures that we need to take.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

When the Minister has the answer to the Question on the Order Paper, will the Government first tell the press, our partners in the EU or the two Houses of Parliament?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, as we have said all along, we are absolutely determined to keep this House and the other place as informed as possible about our decisions. We stick by that.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, while many people might agree with the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, that there is ambiguity about the meaning of the word “Brexit”, assuming it is a word, there is no ambiguity whatever about the word that appeared on the ballot paper—namely, “leave”. As far as I can discover, leave means inexorably three things in relation to any organisation: first, that you no longer sit on the executive committee; secondly, that you no longer pay the subs; and, thirdly, that you are no longer obliged to abide by the rules. Will the Minister confirm that those three essential aspects of leave remain the central position of the Government’s negotiations?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. As he and the whole House will know, the Prime Minister has made it clear that we wish to take control of our laws, borders and money, while achieving the best possible access to the single market, and ensuring that we have the means to continue to co-operate and collaborate with our European partners on issues where it remains in our national interest to do so.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

Is it not the truth that the Government were so ill prepared for Brexit that the reason they are not revealing their hand is that they do not know what their hand is? They seem to have three hands, with three different Ministers not in agreement and one of them even failing to meet the 27 fellow members of the European Union, whose support we will need in our negotiations. Therefore my question to the Minister is: rather than playing politics, could he—

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[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

Listen to the punchline. Could he not treat us all as adults and say that this House and all parties should be involved in this for the sake of the national interest, and that we should have a discussion which incorporates what we want to say rather than saying, “It is all secret and we cannot tell you”? Will the Minister take that approach in the discussions?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I certainly treat everyone in your Lordships’ House as adults and listen to, and respect, the views of those on all sides of the House, whatever their views might be. As I have said all along, the Government’s view on this is to continue to engage as far as possible with this House, the other place and, indeed, groups right across society, including businesses and NGOs, and listen to their views. We are doing so in a measured, calm and reasoned way. We will continue to do so and assess the options open to us.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Ludford]

My Lords, clearly, when the Conservative Party offered the emphatic pledge of saying yes to the single market in its manifesto last year, as cited by my noble friend, it had in mind the national interest. Equally clearly, now the Conservative Government are focusing purely on their internal party interest. When will they get back to prioritising the interests and needs of the United Kingdom people and businesses, which means avoiding a destructive hard Brexit?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am very sorry to say that I totally refute what the noble Baroness says. We are putting the national interest absolutely first and are doing so in a calm and measured way. Quite frankly, if I had turned up at this Dispatch Box four or so weeks after the referendum result and had come out with answers to the very complex challenges that this Government face—among the most serious challenges that any Government have faced since 1945—I think she would have asked us, “Where is all the planning? How has it all been carried out?”.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

Let me make this point to the noble Baroness. We are doing this in a reasoned and controlled way. I repeat to her and her party that I hope they stand by the document I see in front of her—the Liberal Democrat plan for Europe—which says that,

“we should not keep rerunning the last referendum in order to get the result we wanted”.

I very much hope that that is the case and that they are not looking to overturn or block the result in this House.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, the Question refers to a Green Paper. Following that, it is normal to have a White Paper. Is this not just a naked delaying tactic? The British people want Her Majesty’s Government to get on with it.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am absolutely determined to make sure that we deliver on the view of the 17.4 million who in June voted to leave the European Union. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, we are doing so in a reasoned and thoughtful way. We will come up with a plan that delivers on the national interest and ensure that we deliver a smooth and orderly Brexit.

Brexit: Article 50

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made in the other place earlier today by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I will now make a Statement on the process for invoking Article 50. The Government’s priority at every stage following the referendum has been to respect the outcome of that referendum and ensure it is delivered on. To leave the EU was the clear decision of the British people. It was taken after a six-to-one vote in this House to put that decision in their hands. As the Government told voters: ‘This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide’. No ifs, no buts. So there can be no going back. The point of no return was passed on June 23.

Implementing the decision to leave the EU means following the right processes. We must leave in the way agreed in law by the UK and other member states, which means following the process set out in Article 50 of the treaty on the European Union.

We have been clear about the timing. There was good reason why the Government did not take the advice of some in this House and trigger Article 50 immediately. Instead, the Prime Minister was clear that she would not invoke Article 50 before the end of this year. This is giving us the time to develop a detailed negotiating position. But we have also said that the process should not drag on, and that we intend to trigger Article 50 by the end of March next year.

Let me now turn to the issues at hand. Legal action was taken to challenge the Government on the proper process for triggering Article 50. We have always been of the clear view that this is a matter for the Government: that it is constitutionally proper and lawful to begin to give effect to the referendum result by the use of prerogative powers. As I have said, the basis on which the referendum was held was that the Government would give effect to the result of that referendum. This was the basis on which people were asked to vote.

Our argument in the High Court was that decisions on the making and withdrawal from treaties are clear examples of the use of the royal prerogative, and that Parliament—while having a role in this process which I will come on to—has not constrained the use of the prerogative to withdraw from the EU. Our position in the case was therefore that the Government were entitled to invoke the procedure set out in Article 50.

The court has, however, come to a different view, and held that the Government do not have the prerogative power to give notice under Article 50 without legislation authorising them to do so. The court said the starting point was that the Crown does not have power to vary the law of the land using its prerogative powers unless Parliament legislated to the contrary. It held that the European Communities Act 1972 brought rights arising under EU law into the law of the United Kingdom, and that the Crown has no prerogative power to withdraw from the EU because the effect of withdrawal would be to take away those rights.

Let me be clear about this: we believe in and value the independence of our judiciary, the foundation upon which our rule of law is built. We also value the freedom of our press. Both these things underpin our democracy. The Government disagree with the court’s judgment. The country voted to leave the European Union in a referendum approved by an Act of Parliament. Our position remains that the only means of leaving is through the procedure set out in Article 50 and that triggering Article 50 is properly a matter for the Government using their prerogative powers. We will appeal the High Court’s judgment at the Supreme Court.

Given our appeal, it would not be appropriate to comment further on the details of the legal arguments. I hope that the House will understand this, but let me say a brief word about the process of our appeal. We have taken two necessary procedural steps. First, the Government have been granted a certificate to bypass the Court of Appeal and ‘leap-frog’ the case to the Supreme Court. This will ensure that, when we lodge our appeal, it will be heard directly in the Supreme Court without further delay in the courts.

Secondly, we will this week apply for the substantive permission to appeal to the Supreme Court. It is likely that any hearing will be scheduled in the Supreme Court in early December. We would hope the judgment would be provided soon after. This timetable remains consistent with our aim to trigger Article 50 by the end of March next year.

We are now preparing our submissions to the Supreme Court in the usual way. As I have said, it would not be proper to go into those in great detail here today, but the core of our argument will remain that we believe that it is proper and lawful for the Government to trigger Article 50 by the use of prerogative powers.

Of course, there is also litigation under way in Northern Ireland. This is considering a number of specific issues linked to Northern Ireland’s constitutional arrangements. The High Court in Belfast found in the Government’s favour on these points. We welcome that outcome. A hearing in Belfast is being held tomorrow to consider whether an appeal by the claimants in this case should also leap-frog to the UK Supreme Court and whether the issues that overlapped with the English courts should remain stayed, pending the outcome of the Supreme Court.

Again, it would not be appropriate for me to say more on this at this stage, except that in the event of any appeal in the Northern Ireland litigation, the Government will robustly defend their position. For the avoidance of doubt, our view is that the legal timetable in relation to this case in the event of an appeal should also be consistent with our commitment to notifying under Article 50 by the end of March next year.

I have said that, because of our appeal, I will not go into detail here on the points of law that were raised in the High Court’s judgment, but let me set out some fundamental principles for how we move ahead. First of all, our plan remains to invoke Article 50 by the end of March. We believe that the legal timetable should allow for that.

Secondly, the referendum must be respected and delivered. The country voted to leave the European Union, in a referendum provided for by an Act of Parliament. There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door and no second referendum. The country voted to leave the European Union and it is the duty of the Government to make sure we do just that. Parliament had its say in legislating for the referendum, which it did in both Houses, and with overwhelming majorities in this House and cross-party support. The people have spoken and we intend to act on their decision.

Thirdly, irrespective of the ongoing court process, there is an important role for Parliament. Parliament will have a central role in making sure that we find the best way forward and we have been clear that we will be as transparent and open as possible. There have already been a number of debates and parliamentary Statements on Brexit, and the Prime Minister has pledged that that process will continue before Article 50 is invoked.

I informed the House in October that there would be a series of debates on Brexit in government time. The first is this afternoon. This is on top of a number of other debates and opportunities for scrutiny. The new Select Committee on Exiting the EU has been established. This provides another place for parliamentary scrutiny of our withdrawal from the EU and the committee will be visiting my department tomorrow.

The Government will bring forward legislation in the next Session that, when enacted, will repeal the European Communities Act 1972 on the day we leave the EU. This ‘great repeal Bill’ will end the authority of EU law and return power to the UK. We have been clear that EU law will be transposed into UK law at the time we leave, providing certainty for workers, businesses and consumers. This will be an Act of Parliament, which we intend to have in place before the end of the Article 50 process. It is important to remember that Article 50 is the beginning of this process; it is not the end.

As the Prime Minister has made clear, there will be many opportunities for Parliament to continue to engage with the Government once Article 50 has been invoked. When negotiations have concluded we will observe in full all relevant legal and constitutional obligations that apply, but there is a balance to be struck between parliamentary scrutiny and preserving our negotiating position, which is why the House unanimously concluded last month that the process should be undertaken in such a way that respects the decision of the people of the UK when they voted to leave the EU on 23 June and does not undermine the negotiating position of the Government as negotiations are entered into. We will give no quarter to anyone who, while going through the motions of respecting the outcome of the referendum, in fact seeks ways to thwart the decision of the British people.

To conclude: we are disappointed by the court’s judgment in this important case. We will appeal that judgment to the Supreme Court. None of this in any way diminishes our determination to respect and deliver on the outcome of the referendum and to notify under Article 50 by the end of March next year. We are going to get on with delivering on the mandate to leave the European Union in the best way possible for the UK’s national interest—best for jobs, best for growth and best for investment. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

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[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I also thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement. I could not agree more with the assertion in it that implementing the decision to leave the EU means following the right processes, including securing the time to develop a detailed negotiating position. The right processes mean implementing the repeated pledge to honour UK parliamentary sovereignty and seeking parliamentary approval for the negotiating position.

By December, the Government will have lost six months in that process. In fact, they seem to be tying themselves up in knots trying to avoid such parliamentary involvement, getting bogged down in their misguided pursuit of executive autonomy over the Article 50 process in an unnecessary and delay-inducing court case. Their incoherence is displayed in having to offer special comfort deals to particular firms such as Nissan instead of being clear in regard to the single market and the customs union. This is creating destabilising uncertainty for all kinds of economic operators and other bodies. Now we hear the Prime Minister talk about putting on the table more visas for Indian nationals, while apparently immigration is treated as a barrier to the single market. That seems somewhat contradictory.

We must rely on leaks in the press to try and read the Government’s mind—or read the tea leaves. Indeed, there is much speculation about a Bill but no such indication in the Statement today. I join the noble Baroness in asking for clarification on that. We need a respectful relationship between Government and Parliament, one indeed sketched out in several reports of our own EU Select Committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, and one last month from the Constitution Committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton. A lot of work and evidence went into those reports but the Government just brushed them aside.

The Government are not only behaving arrogantly towards Parliament when the political constitutional basis for Parliament’s role was in fact clear without the legal process, but also—to the dismay of people across the political spectrum—indulging in populist and xenophobic language, culminating in the failure to properly defend the institution of the judiciary. Freedom of the press may incorporate a freedom to criticise a particular judgment but not to indulge in scurrilous personal and institutional abuse of judges and the judiciary. It is very disappointing that neither in the days since the High Court judgment nor today have the Government rebuked the nature of the press comments notably in the Daily Mail and rather more shockingly in the Daily Telegraph, including the famous “enemies of the people” slogan evocative of Nazi Germany. It would be good to hear from the Government a condemnation of that kind of press coverage, and of the incitement to rioting in the streets from the former leader of UKIP, Mr Farage.

The Government say they intend to act on the decision to leave but it is on the character of that action that we need clarity since there are many different varieties of Brexit—probably more than 57. It is necessary to be respectful to those who voted remain if the Prime Minister genuinely wants to unite the country. The phrase in the Statement about giving no quarter is a rather disturbing signal.

Liberal Democrats in no way seek to undermine the negotiating position of the Government. Parliament having an overview of the objectives would not do so. Indeed, having the backing of Parliament, as was mentioned in our several reports, would strengthen the Government’s hand in those negotiations. We are not asking for details of particular trade-offs or red lines.

Any delay is down to the Government. If they act in good faith, there is no reason not to meet a March timetable. This does not mean a series of interesting but essentially purposeless general debates in which the Government stonewall, but an opportunity to get to grips with a concrete plan and a substantive strategy. Can the Minister therefore tell us whether the Government are planning to inform Parliament about their negotiating objectives in a White Paper, as is rumoured, and what kind of Bill they are planning to produce? The Government need to stop waffling and sidestepping and give us enough meat to be able to vote for the triggering of Article 50.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayter and Lady Ludford, for their contributions. I am determined to work constructively with Members of this House who want to make a success of Brexit. I said that at the start, that offer remains, and I am grateful to noble Lords who have spared their time and their expertise to meet me in private. As I say, my door remains open to anyone who wishes to have any conversation with me.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked why we are appealing. As I said in the Statement, our position has been and remains that the decision to leave the EU was taken by the people in a referendum and that triggering Article 50, the starting point of the process, is a matter for the Government. That is an important principle, which is why we are appealing the judgment. As regards what would happen were we to lose, we are obviously prepared for all eventualities, but equally obviously, we are focused on the appeal to the Supreme Court. As we said last week, the logical conclusion to draw from the High Court judgment is that legislation would be necessary, but we are appealing the judgment and hope that the Supreme Court will rule differently. In the event that it does not, we will assess what remedy the Supreme Court requires and will set out our approach at that point. Therefore the speculation about a Bill is just that at this juncture—speculation.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Hayter and Lady Ludford, referred to the response to that court ruling. To embellish a little what I said in the Statement, I strongly believe, as the Government do, that one of the basic tenets of a free society is freedom of speech and expression, but so too is the independence of the judiciary, which is clearly a cornerstone of our democracy in maintaining the rule of law. We must observe due process and the independence of the judiciary and abide by its rulings. Meanwhile, however, we must all respect the outcome of the referendum and the wish of 17.4 million people to leave the EU.

On the role of Parliament, the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, said a fair amount just a moment ago. She also talked about this on the “Today” programme this morning, when I was munching on my cornflakes, saying that the Government were completely excluding Parliament, and she just said that the Government are being arrogant towards Parliament. I will not get into a war of words on this. I will just put on the record what the Government have done so far. They have answered 302 Parliamentary Written Questions, made three Oral Statements, answered seven Oral Parliamentary Questions, given four Ministerial Statements and made 10 Select Committee appearances, and have replied to over half a dozen other debates. Currently there are over 30 Brexit-themed Select Committee inquiries. I make that point to say that we are giving Parliament the chance for scrutiny. On top of that, Parliament will vote to repeal the ECA and, as I said in the Statement, parliamentary procedure will be followed to ratify any treaty.

Furthermore, on the role of Parliament, our key aim in the negotiations will obviously be to deliver the best outcome while protecting the national interest. The Government have said that we will be as open as we possibly can be and we have set out our strategic aims. I argue, as I have done before, that we will not achieve a good outcome if this negotiation is run from the back seat by the House of Commons and this House. No negotiation can possibly be run in that way. Indeed, if Parliament insists that triggering Article 50 should be conditional on us going into this negotiation with all our cards face up for everyone on the other side of the table to see, that detailed minimum negotiating position will quickly become the maximum possible offer from our negotiating partners. Furthermore, the talk of a second referendum from some in this House and elsewhere will simply encourage the EU to impose difficult terms in the hope that the British people will change their minds if only the question is put to them again. To those who argue for certainty I ask: what greater uncertainty can there be than for that to be injected into the system?

Therefore, parliamentary scrutiny? Absolutely. But telling the Prime Minister which cards to play and seeking to force her to disclose her hand to those with whom she will be negotiating? I say no.

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[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

Everybody who took part in the case made it clear that the judges were asked to determine a question of law, which was entirely within their jurisdiction. They made it abundantly clear that they had no views to express on Brexit or anything associated with it except on the question of law which was put to them, which is simply whether the prerogative power enables this triggering to happen. I express no view upon that matter because it has been appealed to the Supreme Court and I verily believe that in due course, it will address it and I await its judgment. In the meantime, however, I am concerned about the reaction of a substantial section of the press, which needs to be dealt with now, which is why I felt it necessary to say what I have said. It is entirely necessary that the independence of the judiciary should be respected, and I believe that all my colleagues in this House are of the same opinion. I hope that the Minister is also of the same opinion.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble and learned friend that the independence of the judiciary and the right of the judges to determine without fear or favour the issues before them are absolutely sacrosanct. They are there to use their best endeavours to interpret and apply the law, which is clearly what they have done and will continue to do.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I entirely endorse what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, said. I recognise that the Government cannot and should not try to control the press. I do not read the result of the referendum as throwing away all our constitutional protections. One of those constitutional protections is the rule of law—that depends upon the independence of the judiciary. The judiciary is strong; it is fine as long as it knows that the Government will support it against scurrilous attacks.

What is so disappointing about this Statement and the conduct of the Government since Thursday, when these scurrilous attacks began, is that: first, at no stage have they said that they accept that the three judges acted in accordance with their judicial oath; and secondly, nobody on behalf of the Government has separated themselves from the remarks of Mr Sajid Javid, who described the three judges as thwarting the will of the people. We in this House respect the noble Lord, Lord Bridges of Headley, and we know that he will have prepared properly for this Statement. Can he confirm on behalf of the Government that they accept that the three judges acted entirely in accordance with their judicial oath? Secondly, can he make it clear that the statement of Mr Sajid Javid on Thursday evening did not represent the views of the Government?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I will absolutely answer the first point by saying: yes. Indeed, I read with interest the noble and learned Lord’s article in the Daily Mail over the weekend, in which he made a number of these points. I completely agree that they acted in good faith and according to their oath. We are questioning the judgment and that is why we are appealing but I am certainly not going to stand here and say that they acted in bad faith. As regards what else he had to say, I have nothing further to add.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, it has been said that 17 million people voted in favour of leaving the EU; that still leaves a very divided country. Not everybody who voted to remain can be assumed to be trying to thwart the decision of the British people simply by asking legitimate questions. The final part of the Statement says:

“We are going to get on with delivering on the mandate to leave the European Union in the best way possible for the UK’s national interest”.

That is defined as,

“best for jobs, best for growth and best for investment”.

Does the Minister agree that we should perhaps have added, “Best for social order and the nature of our public and political discourse”?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The right reverend Prelate makes a good point. He points to a sin of omission here. I totally agree that we need to be looking at what is best for the communities of this country; that is why I am delighted that I have met with representatives of the Church of England to discuss this. Brexit raises a whole range of issues which are posing challenges for communities. I know that is so as regards EU funding. There are concerns across the board on various points. I am happy to discuss those with all faith groups and I am delighted that the Church of England has agreed to do so.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister inform the Prime Minister that she should invite the Minister for Justice to study her constitutional duties under the Constitutional Reform Act—particularly Section 3(1) and 3(6)—to defend the judiciary, in view of her half-hearted and delayed defence of the judiciary and her failure to rebut some of the inflammatory comments in the newspapers, in which she was joined by a senior Minister as well?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I hear what the noble and learned Lord says. I have made my position clear on this and I really do not have very much more to add.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Can the Minister tell us when the Government intend to inform Parliament about the content that they would like to see in the framework for our future relationship with the European Union? The Minister will recognise that I am quoting from the language of clause 2 of Article 50. Also, when will we be told whether leaving the European Union will also mean leaving the EU customs union—a point of some importance to manufacturers with modern, just-in-time supply chains?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord makes an extremely good point and speaks from considerable experience. We will be as open and transparent with Parliament and businesses as we possibly can, with the important caveat that I set out: we cannot and must not undermine our negotiating position and the national interest. As the noble Lord understands, we are looking at considerably complex issues right now. That is why we are looking at 51 sectors of the economy and at issues such as the supply chain. As I say, when we are in a position to do so we will be as open and transparent as we can be.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem]

My Lords, we all believe in the freedom of the press and in the independence of the judiciary. But I doubt very much whether there is a single one of your Lordships who does not believe in the supremacy and sovereignty of Parliament. The decision made by the High Court judges underlines and ensures the application of that doctrine. Why, in the four corners of this Statement, is there no reference to the sovereignty of Parliament?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked me last week whether we respect the sovereignty of Parliament. We do. We respect the sovereignty of Parliament and the rule of law, but the sovereignty of Parliament reflects the will of the people—and the people voted for a Government to give them a referendum on leaving the European Union. Parliament passed that legislation and 17.4 million people voted to leave the European Union.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, in view of all the high feelings which we have just heard, would it not be wiser and better in the interests of a smooth and speedy Brexit, which I certainly want to see, to work with Parliament from now on rather than battling against it? Why can the Government not give us a really detailed Green Paper, outlining and analysing all the complexities of the situation? It would be nothing to do with the negotiating position, which comes quite separately. We could then debate that Green Paper over two or even three days and give the best input of Parliament from both its Houses. The Government could then bring forward a one-clause Bill authorising the Article 50 process to go forward. Is that not a simpler and more constructive way of proceeding than the one we are on now?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I hear what my noble friend has to say but the Prime Minister has made it clear that we are going to appeal this judgment. That is the position we are in. As regards setting out our position on the future negotiations, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, we have been clear that we will be as transparent and open with Parliament as we can possibly be, once we have finished our analysis of the options open to us.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the Minister rightly celebrates the independence of the judiciary. However, my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer asked him to condemn the words of Sajid Javid, who by his words undermined what the Minister is saying. What the right honourable Minister said was completely unacceptable; indeed, those words corrode the very democracy that the noble Lord seeks to uphold. Please will he condemn the words of the right honourable Sajid Javid?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am sorry to say that I have nothing further to add on this matter.

[Lord Lang of Monkton (Con)]

My Lords, your Constitution Committee did indeed state in its report on the invoking of Article 50 that it was constitutionally appropriate that Parliament should be involved in the various stages of the negotiations, including the triggering of Article 50. I am sure that we would still stand by that view. However, we accept the need to make progress and to make it reasonably rapidly, removing uncertainty not least from the economy and the concerns of the business community, and the possible jeopardising of the future of that economy should matters be drawn out unduly. Does my noble friend agree that the triggering of Article 50 is essentially a matter of timing? It is therefore not an appropriate time for diving into the detailed study of the Government’s negotiating plans, which it might anyway be inappropriate to lay before Parliament in advance and thus declare their position.

However, if it is a matter of timing, would it not be sensible to consider bringing before both Houses of Parliament a short and tightly drawn Bill and seeking the agreement of the various parties involved to achieve rapid progress through the House on a fast-track basis? That would remove the uncertainty that is causing so much concern; proper consideration can then be given to the negotiations. Finally, since this is about the invoking of Article 50 and not about what the Daily Mail said about the judges, could we have a debate on the invoking of Article 50 and the reports of the Constitution Committee and the European Union Committee on that subject?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

On the second point, that is a matter for the usual channels. On the first point, I would certainly say that it is a matter of process. The Prime Minister and the Government have made it clear that we are going to appeal this judgment. I very much respect and value the work that the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Lang, does. We have tried to allay uncertainty wherever we can, be it by our approach to repealing the European Communities Act or to European funding. We are certainly doing that and will continue to look for ways in which we can mitigate it elsewhere.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the Government have already laid out the basis of their negotiating strategy; namely, that we will insist on taking back control of immigration, that we will take back administration of justice in the UK to the UK courts, and that thereafter we will seek to do as good a deal as we can for trade in goods and services to the benefit of both the UK and our European partners? Given this basis, is there not plenty of time, following what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, for the Government to lay a Green Paper with rather more detail and get legislation through in time to meet their deadline of triggering Article 50 by the end of March?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, once again, I respect what the noble Lord has to say. I have set out as far as possible that we are undertaking that extensive analysis. Clearly he is absolutely right that we have set out the underlying principles of the Government’s negotiating position, and with that in mind, that is the basis upon which our analysis is proceeding. As regards a Green Paper, to which the noble Lord and my noble friend Lord Howell referred, we intend to be as transparent and open as possible in the course of events.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, to the extent that the Government cannot divulge their full negotiating hand prior to moving Article 50, does that not reinforce and make even more important that 20 months down the road, or whatever it is, when these negotiations have been concluded, the question should be put back to Parliament to take a decisive decision?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will be delighted to hear that there will be considerable opportunities between now and then for us to have many more Statements, debates et cetera. As regards what will happen at the end, we have made it very clear that all treaties arising from the negotiations will be subject to the due process of constitutional precedents. On that, I have nothing further to add.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)]

My Lords, why have the Government ignored the reports of the Constitution Committee referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Lang? Why is Parliament not being given the intentions regarding the presentation of specified information? Why are Ministers in principle not being required to report back to Parliament at all? Why is Parliament not being involved in the negotiation process subsequent to the initial determinations?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, we have taken the position we do on the court case—if I understand the noble Lord correctly—because we believe that starting the process of triggering Article 50 is a matter for the Government. As regards the negotiation process, I have nothing further to add to my response to the noble Lord, Lord Butler.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, why is the Minister so reluctant to condemn the scurrilous attacks made in the press on Her Majesty’s judges? Does he not accept that what they were asked to do was to look very carefully, historically and analytically, at the prerogative powers? Those powers started as a monarchical dictatorship and were gallantly challenged in the 17th century in the civil war. Today, the remnant is not sufficient to allow the Government to do anything that would further the process of Article 50. Had the judges done anything different they would have been betraying their oath and would have indeed been unworthy of their position. They have acted in the very best traditions of the British judiciary.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

As I said, I am not going to go much beyond what I said before. I totally respect and wish to protect the independence of the judiciary, and I am absolutely sure that those judges acted in good faith.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

The Statement seems to imply that the referendum made a decision to leave the European Union. Those of us who served on the Bill setting up the referendum know that that is not so; it was clearly an advisory referendum. It is therefore very important that the Government should not now treat it as a mandatory referendum which would be contrary to and incompatible with our system of representative parliamentary democracy. I think the right thing to do now is to take the advice of the referendum, but it is clear that on the details—the expression “Brexit means Brexit” is totally meaningless—Parliament should be able to take a view on whether to implement Article 50 and go along with the judgment of the High Court.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, the Government are appealing against the judgment of the High Court and believe that the views of the 17.4 million people who voted to leave should be respected. As regards the position of this House, I repeat all the points I said before about the role it has so far had in setting up the referendum and the role it will have in due course in issues such as repealing the European Communities Act.

Brexit

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Soley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact on their negotiations with the European Union on Brexit and the United Kingdom’s future relationship with the European Union of the pursuit by other European Union member states of ever-closer union.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, the future direction of the EU is a matter for its remaining members, but we intend to co-operate and collaborate on matters of mutual interest once we leave the EU. We do not see Brexit as ending our relationship with the EU; it is about starting a new one that is dynamic and constructive.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Perhaps this morning’s developments indicate how fast moving and difficult it is to predict the direction that these negotiations and discussions will take. I am increasingly concerned about this talk of hard and soft Brexit when crucially, regardless of what happens with the court decision at the end of the day, what matters is that Parliament is involved in trying to work out a good arrangement—good for the United Kingdom and good for the European Union. Many of those members will continue to move towards ever-closer union. We must be sensitive to that, and I hope that the Minister will confirm that.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, absolutely, and I thank the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity to say this. As my ministerial colleagues have said, while we are leaving the EU, we are certainly not going to turn our backs on Europe. I share the noble Lord’s concern about the use of language. The Prime Minister has made it very clear that we are not adopting an off-the-shelf approach; we are looking for a bespoke approach. We want a relationship that will reflect mature, co-operative arrangements in the future, with close friends and allies with whom we have been partners for a number of years and with whom we continue to face common challenges. Once we have left the EU, those common challenges will remain, and it will be utterly in our national interest to look to see how we can continue to co-operate with our European partners once we have left.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, clearly it is in the interests of the United Kingdom that the European Union is a stable partner, so ever-closer union for the 27 might be desirable. But in light of today’s developments, will the Minister bring forward a Statement letting us know how Parliament might be involved in triggering Article 50?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I had expected that question. The Government are clearly disappointed by the court’s judgment. The country voted to leave the European Union in a referendum approved by an Act of Parliament, and the Government remain determined to respect the vote of the referendum. We will appeal this judgment. I have nothing further to say at this precise juncture. I am sure that more will be said in due course.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, it is interesting that Brexit was all about parliamentary sovereignty. We regret that the Government will now appeal against the judgment to give this decision back to Parliament. In fact, if the Government do not like the Supreme Court’s decision, perhaps they will try the European Court of Justice. We accept that we will trigger Article 50, but what is important now are the terms of that. Parliament can help to shape the basis on which we leave. It would be better to welcome this decision—and I ask the Minister to do that—to work with the judgment of the court and to take this important decision to Parliament.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I have nothing further to add to what I said a moment ago. The Government’s decision is to appeal this judgment. The referendum result was clear. Some 17.4 million people voted to leave, and the Government have made it clear that they wish to deliver on that.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Question underlines the importance of this country’s role in all the other European institutions other than the EU?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

Yes, I think the noble Lord is referring to the institutions that operate external to the EU and which have helped to underpin our security. At the same time, I would point out that, as regards defence, the Government believe that NATO is the bedrock of our defence policy. On the wider point that is implicit in the noble Lord’s question, there are a number of areas of co-operation as regards defence, security, and research and development which we will wish to look at in the future to see whether our continued co-operation and collaboration fulfil our national interest.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, I am afraid that it is woe after woe for the Government. On top of this morning’s decision by the High Court, has the Minister had a chance to read the clear statement of the chair of the European Parliament’s Constitutional Affairs Committee, Danuta Maria Hübner, who has made it absolutely clear that any EU follow-on free trade agreements will not occur simultaneously with Brexit—in other words, it will be possible to negotiate only at the end of the Brexit arrangements? Those discussions will be subject to a unanimous vote, including of the sub-state parliaments in Europe. This has the potential to add years to the process and is a complete contradiction of the statements expressed publicly by the Secretary of State for International Trade. Will the Minister respond?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I have little to add to what my colleague the Secretary of State for International Trade has said, other than that we will obviously abide by the obligations set out by the WTO when we look to forge future negotiations, and likewise with the EU when we look to forge future arrangements with other non-EU countries. I have nothing further to add at this juncture.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that the Government are determined to carry out the wishes of the British people and enable us to leave the European Union? While understanding that the Government were required to indicate that they would have to appeal in order to take the matter forward, they do not have to go ahead with that. Given that the Opposition have made their position absolutely clear—indeed, noble Lords will recall that the leader of the Opposition called for us to implement Article 50 immediately—what exactly is the difficulty with having a vote in the House of Commons on that matter of principle?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, the Government have made their position clear as regards this judgment, but I can assure my noble friend that we intend to deliver on the verdict of the British people in the referendum, and furthermore to deliver on our manifesto promise to respect the outcome of the result of that referendum.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Lord has restricted himself in the comments he may make, but perhaps I may ask him whether he agrees with two principles. The first is that, no matter how high you are, the law is above you. Secondly, will he affirm unequivocally the sovereignty of Parliament?

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[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, we absolutely will abide by the sovereignty of Parliament, but I should also say that the reason we are abiding by the process before us is to ensure that we follow the options open to us as regards appealing. That is what we are doing.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, if all the other member states really are determined to go on sailing straight at the three icebergs of the euro, immigration and the EU’s ruinously uncompetitive overregulation—and there are signs that some of them are not—surely we should be even more determined to get off their “Titanic” as soon as possible.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, a number of options are open to us as we leave the European Union. We intend to make the most of the opportunities that present themselves, while maintaining the freest possible access to the market of the European Union.

Brexit: Single Market

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they intend to fulfil the pledge in the 2015 Conservative Party manifesto to “safeguard British interests in the Single Market”.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, we will seek the right deal to give UK businesses the maximum access and freedom to trade with and operate in the single market. We are analysing the entire UK economy, looking in detail at over 50 sectors and cross-cutting regulatory issues to understand the key factors for business and the labour force.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. Given the importance of trust in politics, is it not a problem that the resounding yes to the single market in the Conservative manifesto, on which this Government were elected just last year, has become, in effect, a no to the single market? Even more important, is it not a huge blow to this country’s economic prospects if there is no coherent and responsible objective to keep all parts of the UK and all sectors of the economy in the single market?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I entirely agree with the noble Baroness about maintaining trust in politics. She is absolutely right about quoting page 72 of the Conservative Party manifesto, which I have in front of me. However, I draw her attention to the next paragraph, which says:

“We will hold that in-out referendum before the end of 2017 and respect the outcome”.

It is important that we respect the outcome of the referendum. Regarding the deal that we are seeking, we obviously wish to get the best possible arrangement for British companies to trade in goods and services across Europe while taking control of immigration. I am not going to speculate on what that looks like at this stage—I am sorry, but that is a refrain noble Lords will hear a lot—but the UK is in a unique position and we will be seeking a bespoke agreement with the EU.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister care to speculate on how long it will take for the Government to realise that Brexit has been a colossal mistake, with banks threatening to leave the United Kingdom, the pound plummeting and, as we have heard, with EU citizens unsure of their future as well as our uncertainty over the single market? Is it not about time the Government recognised that Parliament ought to be given an opportunity to sort out this mess?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, 17.4 million people would slightly disagree with the noble Lord.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am sorry but the noble Lord is wrong in the eyes of 17.4 million people. I also disagree with him on the point about our future. There are obviously challenges ahead but the Government are determined to build on the progress we have been making in the economy over the last five to 10 years and to ensure that we deliver a smooth and orderly transition for Brexit.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm that the United States has access to the single market without being a member of it?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My noble friend is absolutely correct. He makes a very good point that precision on language in the weeks and months ahead is key. We need to differentiate between membership of, access to and special access to the single market. It is critical that that point is made.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords—

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not quite clear that when the Brexit Secretary indicated that it was not necessary for the UK to remain a member of the single market, he caused profound uncertainty in business, finance and trade? Is it not clear therefore that unless the Government begin to establish clear principles on which they are acting on Brexit, we will go through a period of enormous uncertainty to the cost of the nation?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord makes a very fair point about the challenges and uncertainty that we face. I and my ministerial colleagues have been having a series of meetings around the country. I was in Nottingham and Derby last week meeting representatives of several large businesses. I agree that we face challenges, but we have set out as far as possible the measures that we can take as a Government to bring certainty to the process—for example, our approach to the repeal of the European Communities Act and the timings to which we intend to adhere as regards triggering Article 50. As regards our aims and overall approach, the noble Lord will know that the Government have set out that we wish to take control over our borders, our moneys and our law, at the same time ensuring that we have the best possible access to the single market. However, I have to say to noble Lords that, as the Prime Minister and I have said many times, we cannot offer a running commentary on this as we go along.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

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[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I am most grateful. Do the Government agree that the single market has prevented us doing our own free trade deals and has overregulated the 90% of our economy which does not trade with it? Therefore, is not continuing free trade all that we need and are we not likely to get it because the EU needs it so much more than we do—for instance, with 2 million more jobs making and selling things to us than we have selling things to it, and any new tariffs falling much more heavily on it than they would on us, as we saw from the Civitas report today?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord comes to this with a certain track record and position. I will not comment in detail on what he said. I have read the Civitas paper by Mr Justin Potts. I cite from the document for noble Lords who have not read it. It says that the findings of its analysis,

“highlight the importance of a trade deal for both the UK and for EU countries”.

In other words, a trade deal, not falling back on WTO rules, which I think may be where the noble Lord is coming from.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords—

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[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, will the Minister tell us whether the word “access” he used in his original Answer was access, special access or membership of the single market? Could we in future perhaps distinguish between those and stop using the ambiguous and slippery word “access” to mean absolutely anything we want it to mean?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I think the noble Lord is accusing me of being Humpty Dumpty and saying that the word,

“means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less”.

However, I will not add further to what I said or breach the Prime Minister’s commandment and start issuing running commentaries.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the financial services industry contributes in excess of £66 billion a year to the Treasury. If the British Bankers’ Association is correct in its recent predictions of departures and transfers out of the UK thanks to the Government’s Brexit attitude, what cuts are expected in public spending on the NHS, schools and infrastructure?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am sorry but I disagree somewhat with the assumption behind the noble Baroness’s point. I have met many financial service companies the length and breadth of the country, and it is clear that like many parts of the UK economy they are looking at Brexit and what it means for them. The noble Baroness takes a somewhat pessimistic view of things as they stand. We are talking to the financial sector as we are talking to all sectors, to ensure, as I have said before, that the outcome to the negotiations leads to a smooth and orderly exit from the EU.

Next Steps in Leaving the European Union

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made in the other place earlier today by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union.

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I will now make a Statement on the next steps in leaving the European Union.

The mandate for Britain to leave the European Union is clear, overwhelming and unarguable. As the Prime Minister has said more than once, we will make a success of Brexit, and no one should seek to find ways to thwart the settled will of the people, expressed in the referendum of 23 June. It is now incumbent on the Government to deliver an exit in the most orderly and smooth way possible, delivering maximum certainty for businesses and workers. I want today to update the House on how the Government plan to reflect UK withdrawal from the EU on the statute book while delivering that certainty and stability.

We will start by bringing forward a great repeal Bill that will mean the European Communities Act ceasing to apply on the day we leave the EU. It was this Act which put EU law above UK law, so it is right, given the clear instruction for exit given to us by the people in the referendum, that we end the authority of EU law. We will return sovereignty to the sovereign institutions of this United Kingdom. That is what people voted for on 23 June—for Britain to take control of its own destiny, and for all decisions about taxpayers’ money, borders and laws to be taken here, in Britain.

The referendum was backed by six to one in this House, and on all sides of the argument—leave and remain—we have a duty to respect and carry out the people’s instruction. As I have said, the mandate for exit is clear, and we will reject any attempt to undo the referendum result, any attempt to hold up the process unduly and any attempt to keep Britain in the EU by the back door by those who did not like the answer they were given on 23 June.

We are consulting widely with business and Parliament, and we want to hear and take account of all views and opinions. The Prime Minister has been clear: we will not be giving a running commentary—that is not the way to get the right deal for Britain—but we are committed to providing clarity where we can as part of this consultative approach.

Naturally, I want this House to be properly engaged throughout, and we will observe the constitutional and legal precedents that apply to any new treaty on a new relationship with the EU. Indeed, my whole approach is about empowering this place. The great repeal Act will convert existing EU law into domestic law, wherever practical. That will provide for a calm and orderly exit and give as much certainty as possible to employers, investors, consumers and workers. We have been clear: UK employment law already goes further than EU law in many areas, and this Government will do nothing to undermine those rights in the workplace.

There is over 40 years of EU law in UK law to consider in all, and some of it simply will not work on exit. We must act to ensure there is no black hole in our statute book. Then, it will be for this House to consider the changes to our domestic legislation to reflect the outcome of our negotiation and our exit, subject to international agreements and treaties with other countries and the EU on matters such as trade.

The European Communities Act has meant that if there is a clash between an Act of the UK Parliament and EU law, it is EU law that prevails. As a result, we have had to abide by judgments delivered by the ECJ in its interpretation of EU law. The great repeal Bill will change that.

Legislation resulting from the UK’s exit must work for the whole of the United Kingdom. To that end, while no one part of the United Kingdom can have a veto over our exit, the Government will consult with the devolved Administrations. I have already held initial conversations with the leaders of the devolved Governments about our plans, and I will make sure that the devolved Administrations have every opportunity to work closely with us.

Let me be absolutely clear: this Bill is a separate issue to when Article 50 is triggered. The great repeal Bill is not what will take us out of the EU but what will ensure the UK statute book is fit for purpose after we have left—and put the elected politicians in this country fully in control of determining the laws that affect its people’s lives.

In order to leave the EU, we will follow the process set out in Article 50 of the EU treaty. The Prime Minister will invoke Article 50 no later than the end of March next year. That gives us the space required to do the necessary work to shape our negotiating strategy. The House will understand this is a very extensive and detailed programme of work, which will take some time.

The clarity on the timing of our proposed exit also gives the European Union the time to prepare its position for the negotiation. The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, said the Prime Minister had brought welcome certainty to the timing of Brexit talks.

We will, as Britain always should, abide by our treaty obligations—not tearing up EU law unilaterally, as some have suggested, but ensuring stability and certainty as Britain takes control on the day of exit and not before.

People have asked what our plan is for exit: this is the first stage. To be prepared for an orderly exit, there is a need to move forward on domestic legislation in parallel with our European negotiation so that we are ready for the day of our withdrawal, when the process set out under Article 50 concludes. Therefore I can tell the House that we intend to introduce the great repeal Bill in the next parliamentary Session. It demonstrates the Government’s determination to deliver the will of the British people, expressed in the EU referendum result, that Britain should once again make its own laws for its own people.

It is nations that are outward looking, enterprising and agile that will prosper in an age of globalisation. I believe that when we have left the European Union, when we are once again truly in control of our own affairs, we will be in an even stronger position to confront the challenges of the future. This Government will build a global Britain that will trade around the world, build new alliances with other countries and deliver prosperity for its people”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

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[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I thank both noble Baronesses, Lady Hayter and Lady Ludford, for their remarks. I am sorry that we are starting on a note of some discord and not harmony. I am sorry to sound a little like a cracked record, too, but the Government’s position on Article 50 is very clear and has remained so right from the moment of the referendum result: that the Government will exercise this measure under royal prerogative. As your Lordships will know, this matter is now before the courts; we are defending our position rigorously. We see a great difference between exercising this power under the royal prerogative and the whole act of withdrawing from the European Union and replacing powers in this House, which is to restore powers to this House overall. These two things are totally separate.

We will not exclude Parliament from this process. This is the second Statement that I have made—I am appearing before a number of your Lordships’ committees, as are my colleagues in the other place—and the point of it is to make clear the procedure by which this House and the other place will be involved in the process. It is clear that there will be extensive debate over the ECA Bill and, as I have said previously at this Dispatch Box, the Government will respect the legal and constitutional procedures and precedents that govern treaties and their ratification. On top of all that, there are other mechanisms for this House and the other place to hold the Government to account, one of which is the opposition day debate, which I believe will be held on Wednesday, so there is all manner of means of accountability.

On the means by which the Government are to be held to account before we even begin negotiations, again I ask noble Lords to just stop and think for a moment. Is it wise for the Government to set out their entire negotiating position in advance and then be bound by it? I ask noble Lords to pause and reflect on that. We obviously need to proceed in the national interest. That means ensuring we have enough room to manoeuvre, while keeping this House properly up to speed. That is our intent.

Secondly, on what we will negotiate, I can understand why the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked me about ruling out various options such as WTO. Again, I am not in a position at the Dispatch Box now or at any other moment in the next few weeks—dare I say months—to start ruling out this, that or the other. That would be exactly what those on the other side of the negotiating table would wish us to do and is why my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made it very clear we will not provide a running commentary. We have and will continue to set out our overarching aims. One of those aims is obviously to ensure that British firms and businesses continue to enjoy the maximum possible access to trade within Europe. That is that and I will not go further into it now.

Finally, on the economy, I understand what the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, said about what is happening currently on the currency markets but I will not speculate on that. However, under the stewardship of this Government and the previous one the economy is in robust health. It is doing very well and we continue to enjoy some very good economic statistics. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have more to say about that in the Autumn Statement to ensure that we protect and strengthen our position.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s Statement. He is quite right to emphasise how absurd it is for the Opposition to advocate that the actual aims of the negotiation should be paraded in public. When the Minister hears the Opposition preaching the merits of membership of—not access to—the single market, will he perhaps remind Members opposite that there are some disadvantages to such membership? These include the facts that we cannot make our own trade deals, that we must accept regulation applying not just those to firms that export to Europe but to the whole of the economy, and that we must make a significant financial contribution equal to 0.5% of GDP. These are significant things that cannot be wished away.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My noble friend makes some very wise points, coming from the position that I know he does. It is absolutely critical that as we go on we are very clear and precise in the terms we use. As he rightly said, there is a great difference between membership and access. In the debate over the last few weeks, people have become rather confused on this. I agree that it is critical that we are clear what we are talking about. On where we are going, as I said, I am not in a position at the Dispatch Box to go further in defining the Government’s course of action other than to say that clearly we are considering a whole range of options, but equally clearly it is in our interests to ensure that we get the maximum freedom for business to trade with and within the single market.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

Would the Minister just clarify the timing? The Prime Minister has decided to go ahead with pressing the button for Article 50 by the end of March next year. Yet I heard from a very senior level of the Government at the time the referendum was declared last summer, “Why did you rush into this?”. We rushed into it because the Europeans told us, “Get it out of the way before the French and German elections”. Now we are rushing into it with the French and German elections, and we have two years in which to negotiate when their minds will be on their elections. Could the timing be explained?

On the prerogative, why is it that when a Prime Minister has a prerogative to go to war, every time—whether it is Iraq or Syria—they come to Parliament to approve it, yet in a situation like this, one of the most important decisions in 40 years, Parliament does not have a say? How can the Government say it was a definitive decision? It was 52:48. It was not 70:30 or 60:40 but 52:48. The instruction of the public was to leave—but on what basis? No immigration or reduced immigration? No contribution to the EU or reduced contribution to the EU? If it is not definite, why can we not have a say in helping the country to, in the words of the Statement, deliver prosperity for its people?

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[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I say politely to the noble Lord as regards his second point: we are not going to have backsliding over the result of the referendum. The result was absolutely clear and we intend to deliver on it. As I said, there will be ample opportunity to hold me and my ministerial colleagues to account at this Dispatch Box and in the other place for the reasons I set out. As regards timing, I hear what the noble Lord says about the French and German elections and other events but I have to say to him: on the other side of the argument are those who say, quite rightly, that we need to have some certainty and some deliberate speed in getting on with this, and that we cannot be seen to be dragging our feet. That is why the Prime Minister has set out what I see as a very timely and measured approach to executing the instruction we have received.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (LD)]

Can the Minister reassure the House that nothing will appear in the great repeal Bill that will undermine the improvements in civil and political society in Northern Ireland and Ireland? That reassurance is needed soon and must guarantee that the beneficial border arrangements on the island of Ireland will not be removed.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord makes an extremely good point. We already have had extensive discussions with the Irish Government and in Northern Ireland. We are all absolutely determined that we will not see a return to the past or to the hard border. As regards the repeal of the ECA, I entirely take his point on that. I would be happy to meet him to discuss any specific points he has on that. I think we are all aware of the sensitivities surrounding the situation in Northern Ireland and the Republic, so thoughts from the noble Lord and others on how best to proceed would be greatly appreciated.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that the two-year time period for Article 50 is an extremely short period, as most experts think, in which to negotiate a comprehensive free-trade agreement with the EU? Therefore, the key question becomes: what interim arrangement will the Government put forward? Will he assure the House that the Government have not ruled out as the interim arrangement full membership of the single market?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord makes an interesting and very valid point. A week may be a long time in politics—God knows what two years is, therefore. Two years is a considerable amount of time, but he makes an important point. The matter of transitional arrangements, as has been widely reported, has been raised with the Government by businesses and business organisations, along with a number of other issues, concerns and thoughts that they have. We are considering them all. I am not going to start ruling in or out any of these points at the Dispatch Box now, but I assure him that his point has been noted.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, the question about Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is really a practical, immediate matter. It is my understanding that to avoid the reinstatement of the hard border, which would be very dangerous, we are proposing to have migration controls at Republic of Ireland ports of entry from other parts of the European Union. Can the Minister comment on that?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I think that my noble friend is referring to a story that appeared in one of the newspapers this morning. There is an existing high level of collaboration between the United Kingdom and Ireland to strengthen the external Common Travel Area. A whole range of processes is already under way. As I said a moment ago, we are in close discussion with our counterparts in the Republic and, obviously, in Northern Ireland itself to look at what else we might do, depending on the options we come up with. I am sorry to say that I cannot go further at this point.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps the Minister could give a little detail about the parliamentary scrutiny arrangements that will follow on from the repeal of the European Communities Act. The Statement spoke of putting elected politicians fully in control. Can he tell the House exactly how that will work with regard to the huge volume of legislation that is envisaged following the great repeal Act? Can he assure us that there will be full parliamentary scrutiny and that the great repeal Act will not be one great Henry VIII clause?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Baroness makes an extremely valid point. I assure her and all your Lordships that we will give ample opportunity to this House to discuss the Bill and to look at the mechanisms that might be required to go into it to ensure that we have an orderly and smooth Brexit. As we speak, departments across Whitehall are looking at what might be required to be done to ensure that when we transpose EU law into UK law it is done in an orderly way, and to identify the amount of work that is required. I am already in conversations with a number of your Lordships about how the delegated powers that might need to be taken on might be exercised. I am completely aware that this matter will be of great interest to your Lordships and I fully intend to engage as closely as possible with as many noble Lords as possible beforehand.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister believe that if we move Article 50 by March, as he indicates, we would have a right in circumstances where the negotiations were totally unsatisfactory to withdraw that application or is the situation that once we have moved it, we are stuck with it whatever the consequences?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

All I will say is that we are intent on making a success out of this, and, once we have moved Article 50 and begun this process, to ensure that it is seen through successfully and smoothly.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I hope that the Minister will not take it amiss if I say that we are no wiser, and certainly no better informed, as a result of this Statement. I again declare my interest as chancellor of the University of St Andrews. Where in the Statement, or in anything said by way of ministerial statements in Birmingham last week, is there any comfort for the universities of Great Britain as a consequence of our removal from the European Union if, as appears likely to be the case, we embark upon leaving it whatever the terms and conditions may be?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I have had conversations with a number of representatives from the university sector. We discussed the concerns that they might have and my right honourable friend the Chancellor has addressed a number of those concerns as regards funding. They also spoke of issues such as migration and access to talent. I draw the noble Lord’s attention to what my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said in Birmingham last week. He made it perfectly clear that we are determined to ensure that, post-Brexit, this country has continued access to the talent that it requires to succeed, be that in any sector of the economy including the university sector. I have spoken personally to a number of university representatives to ensure that they come up with ideas as to how we might best do that.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, why does the Minister say that Parliament should remain in control after Brexit, quite rightly, but not before Brexit? This is not a question of seeking to overturn the referendum result nor of parading your negotiating credentials in public beforehand. It is about asserting Parliament’s fundamental right, including this House’s right, to approve the terms of Brexit because those were never spelt out by the leave campaign. People voted against remaining in Europe but not for anything. Surely Parliament should have the chance not just to scrutinise but to amend any proposal put to it on the terms of Brexit so that it is in the United Kingdom’s interest, in the view of Parliament.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am very sorry to say that I disagree with the noble Lord on this. This Government have been given an instruction to deliver on Brexit and that is what we intend to do. I am loath to use the phrase “Don’t bind my hands” in relation to Europe but that would be the consequence of what he is attempting to do. We need to be able to negotiate in the nation’s interests: that means having the ability to negotiate the best deal for Britain.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I invite the Minister to assist the House with regard to one particular aspect of Article 50. That aspect is paragraph 2, which the Minister will recollect says something of this order: that once notice has been given under Article 50, triggering the whole process, it is incumbent upon the European Commission and the leaving state to discuss matters with a view to coming to various agreements. It does not define the parameter of those agreements, which can be illimitable with regard to timing and to any other content. This is not a question of spelling out our specific position but, with regard to the choice or headings of matters to be negotiated, will the voice be heard at any stage of this mother of Parliaments, as enunciated through both Houses of Parliament?

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[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am sorry to repeat what I have said but the voice of this House and the other House will certainly be heard in the process, as I have already set out. As we go through the negotiating process, I am sure that there will be ample opportunity to question me and my colleagues in the other place about how the negotiations are proceeding.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, is there not always a danger with referendums that they become the dictatorship of the majority and do not take into account minority interests, even when the minority is as large as 48%? Does my noble friend agree that we have a representative parliamentary system of democracy which defends minority interests, and that we therefore ought to play a full role in deciding exactly what was meant by the result in the referendum? The other point which ought to be made is that there is some danger of the negotiations becoming a kind of trade-off where you go for either the single market or free movement of people. As far as British industry and finance are concerned, it is entirely in their interests to secure satisfactory arrangements on both. We ought not to be making a trade-off between one and the other.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

On the first point, I fear that I have little more to add. As regards financial services, my noble friend makes a very good second point. Again, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, my other ministerial colleagues and I have been meeting representatives of the financial sector. They have addressed their need for access to talent and access to markets, which brings us on to the issues of passporting and equivalence, and all those points. We are now considering all those matters and noting carefully the points that they are raising.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, the sentence in the Statement saying that the Government will convert legislation into UK law “wherever practical” gives little comfort to those of us who believe that workers’, consumers’ and environmental rights are best protected by membership of the European Union. I also go back to what the noble Lord on the Lib Dem Benches talked about in relation to universities. I declare my interest from the University of Bath, where I know that several people have already withdrawn their candidature from various posts because they are worried about not having a future in the university. Can the Minister say whether all those EU staff who are currently employed in British universities will be able to stay?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

On the first point of “wherever practical”, I am more than happy to discuss with the noble Baroness any specific points that she might have. This is one of the reasons why we have made this announcement when we have: we need to take a long, hard look at what needs to be done to achieve our aim and to ensure that, when it comes to the day that we leave the EU, everyone knows exactly where they stand, mindful of our wishes to ensure that we have certainty and to protect workers’ rights, for example. If the noble Baroness wishes to raise specific points, I am more than happy to meet her. On her second point about universities and university staff withdrawing, I am obviously disappointed and saddened to hear that. The Government’s position on EU citizens and UK citizens overseas is clear. We very much hope to come to an agreement with the EU on the rights of UK citizens overseas and therefore of EU citizens here, and we see no reason why we should not be able to do so.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, as one living on the border between the United Kingdom and the Republic, I am very relaxed that both Governments—that of the United Kingdom and that in Dublin—want to retain the common travel area in the island of Ireland. We have no problem there. I am afraid that some people in London are exaggerating the issue. The border towns are booming not with bombs, I am glad to say, but with thousands of southern Irish shoppers coming into Northern Ireland every day to do their shopping following the depreciation of the pound. We are benefiting from the referendum decision. But what worries us is the situation in the Republic, which will be the worst hit EU country following Brexit because it is one of our main trading partners. Mushroom producers’ units are being closed and meat plants are in trouble. I therefore hope that in the forthcoming negotiations, the United Kingdom will be concerned about the economy in the Republic of Ireland because a bad economy there is not good for Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments, especially given his extensive experience on this. Of course we are very conscious of all aspects regarding the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland when we enter these negotiations. I totally heed the point he makes.

I think there is a bit of a myth about the common travel area. Some say that the CTA ceased to exist when the UK and Ireland joined the EU. This is untrue. The CTA is specifically recognised in the 1997 treaty of Amsterdam and continues to be recognised in Protocol (No 20) on the application of certain aspects of Article 26. The protocol recognises,

“the existence for many years of special travel arrangements between the United Kingdom and Ireland”.

This is a point that we will obviously need to return to, but it is important to note.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

What does the Minister think would be the reaction of the British people were the unelected Members of this House to attempt to thwart the clearly decided vote in the referendum in June?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I do not like to think of that very much. I suggest to those who wish to do so that they should humbly think again about what they might be embarking upon.

[Lord Wrigglesworth (LD)]

The Minister described the trading paradise that we are going to have when we leave the EU. Will he remind us of all those trips Prime Ministers, Chancellors, Secretaries of State for Business and other Ministers have made to further our trading interest in India, China and around the world? What is going to change? What are the Government going to do as a result of this removal from the European Union that is going to bring this trading Valhalla to us that has not been brought about in the past?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am sorry to say that I beg to differ. The opportunities now before us will be quite considerable. Just because we may have had some difficulties in the past does not mean we will have difficulties in future.

Brexit: Single Market

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taverne]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in their negotiations to leave the European Union, they will seek to preserve the United Kingdom’s membership of the single market.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, we are determined to protect and build on our economic strengths while implementing the decision of the British people to leave the EU. We want the right deal for trade in goods and services for the United Kingdom.

[Lord Taverne (LD)]

My Lords, has the Minister had a chance to consider the recent paper by the Centre for European Reform with its detailed analysis of the very complex problem that Brexit raises for our trade relations with the European Union and non-EU members of the World Trade Organization? If so, does he not agree that it demonstrates pretty convincingly that, when it comes to the impact on our future prosperity and trade, the least bad solution is to preserve our membership of the single market at all costs?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for drawing that paper to my attention. I have actually seen it and it is extremely interesting. It sets out a number of questions and outlines some—just some—of the complexity that we face. I will not be drawn on his point, I am sorry to say. I know how frustrating it is for all noble Lords with regard to the position that we are in, but, as I said in the Statement last week, we are analysing the position, analysing the options open and determined to come up with the best deal and the best outcome for our country.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

Will my noble friend acknowledge that there is a difference between access to the single market and membership of the single market? Will he recognise the fact that many countries have increased their exports to the single market more than we have and are not members of the single market? If EU law continues to be applied to companies in this country that are not even exporting to the EU, Brexit will not mean Brexit.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My noble friend makes a number of very good points. He is right to draw a distinction between access and membership. I would add that we are—and we must never forget this—negotiating from a position of considerable economic strength in this country, endorsed once again by the employment statistics that came out today. Therefore, as we enter these negotiations, that should buoy us.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

At 10 am yesterday, our Constitution Committee introduced its report stating that a parliamentary vote was needed before Article 50 could be triggered. It took David Davis just five hours to reject it. Does the Minister think that that bodes well for the advice he will take from your Lordships’ House? Would it not be a good idea if some of the advice was read before it was rejected?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I am sorry that the noble Baroness feels that way. I have read the report with regard to Article 50, but the Government’s position on Article 50 has been clear for some time. I have nothing further to add other than that we are intent on delivering the verdict of the British people.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, will the Minister be prepared to say when the Government will produce an objective, factual assessment pointing out the substantial differences between being in the single market, being outside the single market in free trade but not free trade in services and not having access free of customs controls and regulatory burdens, or the third option—the WTO option—and paying the common external tariff on our exports? Will we get the facts on that some time soon?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, all I have to add to the Statement that the Government set out in this House last week is that the next milestone in this process will be the triggering of Article 50, which will make our position clear. Clearly, we are looking at all the options open, which the noble Lord so eloquently outlined.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that, essential as it is, membership of the single market short of EU membership, let alone mere access to it, entails a severe loss of sovereignty, especially if we leave the customs union—what my right honourable friend Nick Clegg called a potential tsunami of red tape? So were not the promises of taking back control and slashing bureaucracy if we left the EU a complete work of fiction?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Baroness makes a number of points. We are assessing all these options. I am not in a position to comment further right now.

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[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Would my noble friend explain to some noble Lords opposite a point they do not seem to have quite twigged? The single market in services is very weak in Europe—indeed, it hardly exists. This country’s GDP is 81% in services. We shall need to look for markets outside the single market if we are to expand our prosperity and future export earnings.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My noble friend makes an extremely good point about services and all these things. I confirm that we are looking at these issues through the prism of the United Kingdom economy as it currently is and the strengths I have already outlined.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, the noble Lord in his earlier reply said that the Government were busy analysing the advantages and disadvantages relating to the single market. Does he not think that a sensible way to deal with something quite so significant and important to the British economy is to analyse the problem first before coming to a conclusion?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, we are looking at the British economy, sector by sector, to see the impact that Brexit might have on it and taking a sounding of views right across the economy. That seems to me to be the perfectly logical way to approach this, acting purely in the national interest.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, many parts of our country are deeply concerned about the negotiations, not least the farming community, as evidenced by the Back British Farming demonstration going on outside. We produce food of the highest quality, by environmental and welfare concerns, of almost anywhere in the world. For the sake of our health, our livestock and the environment, can the noble Lord assure the House that Her Majesty’s Government will be very careful to ensure we will not be flooded with cheap imports of food produced to much lower standards than that which our excellent farming industry produces?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The right reverend Prelate makes a very good point about the various options open to us and their consequences. I assure him we have already started to have extensive negotiations with the farming community and others about the impact Brexit has on their sectors.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that the issue of whether Article 50 can be triggered by royal prerogative or by a vote in Parliament is wholly arid? Indeed, for Brexit to be brought into execution it will be necessary for us to cancel and undo completely the European Communities Act 1972. That, of course, will involve legislation.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

Indeed. The noble Lord makes a point about the role of the ECA. We are currently reviewing what action will be required regarding the review, amendment or otherwise of that Act.

Brexit: Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government at what stage or stages of the European Union exit negotiations the requirements of Part 2 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 will be fulfilled.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, the precise timing, terms and means by which we leave the European Union will be determined by the negotiations that follow the triggering of Article 50. We will observe in full all relevant legal and constitutional obligations that apply.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, as the Minister recognised, we are now in some confusion over sovereignty—Bernard Jenkin and others suggest that we can abrogate the limits on external sovereignty and ignore international law. The Minister is too young to remember Margaret Thatcher’s remarks against moving from parliamentary to popular sovereignty, but we are clearly moving away a little. The Government have suggested that we can move towards exerting Article 50 by prerogative sovereignty. Executive sovereignty and popular sovereignty take us a long way away from parliamentary sovereignty, which the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act was intended to strengthen. Can we have a reassurance from the Government that the rules of that Act will be followed very closely as the Government move towards treaty renegotiation?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I think I got that question, and I thank the noble Lord for it. The Government are very clear about the obligations of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, which states clearly that both Houses of Parliament have a role in approving treaties as set out in the Act. As I said in my first statement, we will observe in full all relevant legal and constitutional obligations that apply.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, leaving the EU is not a simple step outside but a journey. The Government need to set objectives for their negotiations to get the best deal for what comes after we leave. They need a clear map of the hurdles, the challenges and indeed the opportunities, as well as the ways of handling emerging issues. It is vital that Parliament and, through us, the public are engaged with this every step of the way as to how we leave the EU and our relationships afterwards. Will the Government commit to ensuring that level of engagement throughout the process, so that any final vote that may happen would be on the basis of a developing consensus?

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[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I welcome the noble Baroness to her position. I look forward very much to the conversations that we are bound to have over the weeks and months ahead. I repeat what my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said and I repeated in this House on Monday, that,

“we are determined to build a national consensus”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/9/16; cols. 879.]

In doing that, we need to involve this House and the other place and to have as much scrutiny and consultation as possible. I also thank the European Union Committee for its excellent report Scrutinising Brexit: The Role of Parliament, which came out in July. In paragraph 21, it said:

“It is clear, therefore, that parliamentary scrutiny of the negotiations will have to strike a balance between, on the one hand, the desire for transparency, and on the other, the need to avoid undermining the UK’s negotiating position. We note that parliamentary scrutiny has shown itself, in practice, to be highly flexible”.

I am sure that noble Lords may have mechanisms for how we might achieve that in such a way as to address the points that the noble Baroness made.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, there is nothing more irritating on a journey than having people in the back seat saying, “Are we nearly there yet?”. I welcome the positive statement by the noble Baroness, but if we are to embark on a journey, would it also be helpful to not have people constantly trying to make us do a U-turn?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord is right. I am reminded about this tendency by my seven year-old twins every time we get in the car. I repeat that I totally understand and sympathise with what the noble Baroness is saying about the need to provide the appropriate level of scrutiny. However, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said in the other place yesterday, we cannot provide a running commentary. It is very important that we strike a balance between informing, engaging and consulting while also protecting the national interest.

[Lord Myners (CB)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Myners]

The noble Lord is renowned for his courtesy and therefore I could anticipate his response.

Does the Minister believe that it is possible for us to leave the European Union without a parliamentary vote?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, as I said, we are determined to follow the constitutional obligations that apply. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said on Monday, the aspects of the European Communities Act 1972 that are required to be repealed and the aspects of the acquis communautaire that need to be carried into British law are important joint issues that have to be decided. Once we have got to the point of deciding what we need to do in that regard, we will come back to the House at the first possible opportunity.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, does the Minister agree that if one is going on a journey it is important to know the destination? Will he pluck up his courage and say to the Prime Minister that her accountability to Parliament should not be described as a running commentary?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

That is not how my right honourable friend’s comment should be perceived. Brexit means leaving the European Union, as we said on Monday.