Wales Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I know the Secretary of State has a lot to tell us, but I am sure he is aware that quite a lot of other Members would also like to speak. Will he bear that in mind?
Kevin Brennan
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. If we are under a severe time constraint, I wonder whether you could tell us how long we have for this debate?
Alun Cairns
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will of course make swift progress, as you have requested.
Amendment 61 seeks to devolve legislative competence to the Assembly over Welsh language broadcasting and other Welsh language media. The Welsh language is a critical part of our cultural heritage in Wales, and the Government’s continued commitment to Welsh language broadcasting is a key element of preserving the language. It is a source of great pride for me that S4C was established by a Conservative Government over 30 years ago, and I note the welcome from a number of stakeholders for the statements made by the BBC on the funding of the channel. This demonstrates our commitment to the Welsh language. The proposal is not recognised by stakeholders and operators in this field, and neither was it called for by the Silk commission or the St David’s day agreement.
Amendment 66 would remove the requirement for the Assembly to seek the consent of UK Government Ministers for an Act of the Assembly that would modify the functions of a reserved authority if such an Act related to a Welsh language function. It is obviously right that the Welsh Government should have the freedom to act in the interest of the Welsh language, but it is also right that when those policies or obligations extend to reserved matters, a UK Government Minister should also approve them. This means that the UK Government have the responsibility to see the Welsh language protected in reserved areas too. That is not the sole preserve of Members of the Welsh Assembly; we all have a responsibility towards the Welsh language.
Amendments 68 and 69 seek to provide that future Assembly legislation altering the specification or number of constituencies or regions, or the number of Members they return, would be subject to agreement by a majority of Assembly Members rather than a super-majority. I think the hon. Member for Newport West is being rather mischievous in tabling these proposals, particularly in the light of the news—which Members heard about today and which will be made public tomorrow—about the potential changes to constituencies that send Members to this place.
The Smith commission recommended a two-thirds majority for Scottish Parliament legislation seeking to change the franchise, the electoral system or the number of constituency or regional Members. This was provided for in the Scotland Act 2016 and the UK Government committed in the St David’s Day agreement to implement the same arrangements for Wales. I believe that I have explained clearly why I cannot support the Opposition amendments and, on that basis, I urge Opposition Members to withdraw them in due course.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
It may seem pretty good to some hon. Members, but we are drifting a little from where we should be. I know we are encompassing everything we need to, but I do not want to open up a full-blown debate on the House of Lords.
Stephen Doughty
I agree with many of the points my hon. Friend has made about the democratic deficit we could be heading towards. He said that the boundary review is to the Government’s advantage, and clearly that is their intention. But it is clearly not to the liking of all those on the Government Benches, as we saw from some of the points of order and comments coming from Conservative Back Benchers last week. Does he agree that the Government might well be stoking up trouble on their own side with this democratic atrocity?
Guto Bebb
I met the Welsh Language Commissioner in August. We have subsequently written to her, highlighting the fact that the concerns raised in relation to the operation of the 2011 Measure have no grounds. In other words, the 2011 Measure is not affected by the Bill. There will be an impact if a subsequent Welsh Language Measure is passed by the Welsh Assembly, but it does not affect the way in which the legislation—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. In fairness, I let the first one go on far too long. If you do not want to sum up at the end, do not try to sum up halfway through. Interventions have to be short. There are still another three speakers to come. I am very tolerant, but I am being tested.
Hywel Williams
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This matter will probably be addressed again when the Bill goes to another place. Perhaps we could have some discussions with the Welsh Language Commissioner in the meantime, to see whether her concerns are still justified.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 1—Maritime and Coastguard Agency—
“(1) In section 1 of the Coastguard Act 1925 (transfer of the coastguard to the Board of Trade), at the end insert—
“(4) The Secretary of State must consult the Welsh Ministers about the strategic priorities of the Secretary of State in exercising functions under subsection (1) in relation to activities of Her Majesty’s Coastguard in Wales.
(5) In subsection (4) “Wales” has the same meaning as in the Government of Wales Act 2006.”
(2) In section 292 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 (general functions of the Secretary of State) at the end insert—
“(5) The Secretary of State must consult the Welsh Ministers about the strategic priorities of the Secretary of State in exercising functions under subsection (1) in relation to the safety standards of ships in Wales and protecting the health and safety of persons on them.
(6) In subsection (5) “Wales” has the same meaning as in the Government of Wales Act 2006.””
This new clause would amend the Coastguard Act 1925 and the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 so as to require the Secretary of State to consult the Welsh Ministers on the Secretary of State’s strategic priorities in relation to the activities of the Coastguard in Wales, including as regards health and safety on ships in Wales.
New clause 6—Tax on carriage of passengers by air—
“(1) In Part 4A of the Government of Wales Act 2006, after Chapter 4 insert—
“Chapter 5
Tax on carriage of passengers by air
116O Tax on carriage of passengers by air
(1) A tax charged on the carriage of passengers by air from airports in Wales is a devolved tax.
(2) Tax may not be charged in accordance with that provision on the carriage of passengers boarding aircraft before the date appointed under subsection (6).
(3) Chapter 4 of Part 1 of The Finance Act 1994 (air passenger duty) is amended as follows.
(4) In section 28(4) (a chargeable passenger is a passenger whose journey begins at an airport in the United Kingdom), for “England, Wales or Northern Ireland” substitute “England, Wales or Northern Ireland”.
(5) In section 31(4B) (exception for passengers departing from airports in designated region of the United Kingdom) for “England, Wales or Northern Ireland” substitute “England or Northern Ireland”.
(6) Subsections (3) to (5) have effect in relation to flights beginning on or after such date as the Treasury appoint by regulations made by statutory instrument.””
This new Clause would make air passenger duty a devolved tax in Wales, on the lines of section 17 of the Scotland Act 2016.
New clause 7—Assignment of VAT—
“(1) The Government of Wales Act 2006 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 117 (Welsh Consolidated Fund), after subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) The Secretary of State shall in accordance with section 64A pay into the Fund out of money provided by Parliament any amounts payable under that section.”
(3) After that section insert—
“117A Assignment of VAT
(1) Where there is an agreement between the Treasury and the Welsh Ministers for identifying an amount agreed to represent the standard rate VAT attributable to Wales for any period (“the agreed standard rate amount”), the amount described in subsection (3) is payable under this section in respect of that period.
(2) Where there is an agreement between the Treasury and the Welsh Ministers for identifying an amount agreed to represent the reduced rate VAT attributable to Wales for that period (“the agreed reduced rate amount”), the amount described in subsection (4) is payable under this section in respect of that period.
(3) The amount payable in accordance with subsection (1) is the amount obtained by multiplying the agreed standard rate amount by—
10
SR
where SR is the number of percentage points in the rate at which value added tax is charged under section 2(1) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 for the period.
(4) The amount payable in accordance with subsection (2) is the amount obtained by multiplying the agreed reduced rate amount by—
2.5
RR
where RR is the number of percentage points in the rate at which value added tax is charged under section 29A(1) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 for the period.
(5) The payment of those amounts under section 64(2A) is to be made in accordance with any agreement between the Treasury and the Welsh Ministers as to the time of the payment or otherwise.”
(4) The Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 is amended as follows.
(5) In subsection (2) of section 18 (confidentiality: exceptions) omit “or” after paragraph (j), and after paragraph (k) insert “, or
(l) which is made in connection with (or with anything done with a view to) the making or implementation of an agreement referred to in section 117A(1) or (2) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (assignment of VAT).”
(6) After that subsection insert—
“(2B) Information disclosed in reliance on subsection (2)(l) may not be further disclosed without the consent of the Commissioners (which may be general or specific).”
(7) In section 19 (wrongful disclosure) in subsections (1) and (8) after “18(1) or (2A)” insert “or (2B)”.””
This new Clause would allow the payment into the Welsh Consolidated Fund of half the receipts of Value Added Tax raised in Wales, on the lines of section 16 of the Scotland Act 2016.
New clause 8—Youth Justice—
“(1) Youth justice is a devolved matter.
(2) The Assembly may establish a non-departmental body accountable to the Assembly to be called Youth Justice Board Cymru to carry out all the existing functions of the Youth Justice Board in relation to youth justice in Wales.
(3) The Assembly may make provision in relation to youth justice in Wales concerning any of the subject matter of—
(a) sections 8 to16, 37 to 42, 47, 48, 65 to 79, 97 and 98 of the Criminal Disorder Act 1998, and
(b) the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999.”
This New Clause would establish a separate youth justice system for Wales, in line with the recommendations made by the Silk Commission.
New clause 9—Apprenticeship levy—
‘(1) In Part 4A of the Government of Wales Act 2006, after Chapter 4 insert—
“Chapter 5
Apprenticeship levy
116O Apprenticeship levy
(1) The Treasury must make separate provision in regulations for apprenticeship levy charged to a person in Wales with a pay bill.
(2) The Treasury must lay an annual report before the Assembly and the House of Commons on the amount of apprenticeship levy raised in each tax year from persons in Wales.
(3) The Treasury must consult the Assembly before setting a levy allowance or a relevant percentage applicable to persons in Wales.””
This New Clause paves the way for apprenticeship levy introduced in Part 6 of the Finance Bill 2016 to be a devolved tax.
New clause 11—Duty to keep the devolution of policing under review—
“(1) The Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers must keep the functioning and operation of policing in Wales under review, including keeping under review the question of whether policing should be devolved to Wales.
(2) In exercising their duty in subsection (1) the Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers must have regard to—
(a) divergence in policing as between England and Wales,
(b) the need to treat the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality, and
(c) any other circumstances in Wales affecting the operation of policing, the maintenance of public order and the prevention and detection of crime.
(3) The Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers may appoint a panel to advise them on the exercise of their functions in this section.
(4) The Secretary of State must make an annual report on policing in relation to Wales to the Welsh Ministers.
(5) The Welsh Ministers must lay the report before the Assembly.
(6) The Secretary of State must lay the report before both Houses of Parliament.”
This new clause would require the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to keep policing in Wales under review and, in particular, the need to devolve policing.
Amendment 70, in clause 36, page 29, line 18, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
This and related amendments would lift the limit on the Welsh Government’s legislative competence in the field of energy from 350 megawatts to 2000 megawatts.
Amendment 71, page 29, line 22, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 72, page 30, line 3, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 73, page 30, line 17, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 74, page 30, line 38, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 75, page 30, line 43, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 76, page 30, line 48, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Government amendment 23.
Amendment 77, in clause 38, page 32, line 17, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 78, page 32, line 18, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Government amendment 24.
Amendment 79, page 32, line 32, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 80, page 32, line 34, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Government amendments 25, 45 to 47, 50, 53, 54, 56 and 58.
Amendment 81, in schedule 6, page 111, line 7, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Amendment 82, page 111, line 10, leave out “350” and insert “2000”.
See amendment 70.
Government amendment 59.
Guto Bebb
I will speak first to the Government amendments in the group, before turning to the amendments tabled by Opposition Members. Most of the Government amendments deal with technical changes to the energy and environment provisions in the Bill; I will discuss those first.
Clause 36 delivers the St David’s Day agreement on the devolution of energy consents, giving the Assembly and Welsh Ministers a substantially greater degree of autonomy in determining the shape of devolved energy policy in Wales. We implemented the decentralisation of consenting responsibilities for all onshore wind projects earlier this year. The Bill will devolve to Wales specific consenting responsibility for all other electricity generating projects up to and including 350 MW in size.
It is important that the Welsh consenting authority has the ability to take measures to ensure the safety of offshore renewable energy installations and those who might come in contact with them. Discretionary powers already exist in the Energy Act 2004 for the Secretary of State to designate safety zones around such installations and to determine the conditions that will apply to the operation of such zones. New clause 5 extends those designation powers to Welsh Ministers in respect of offshore installations up to and including 350 MW in size in Welsh waters—that is, territorial waters up to the 12 nautical mile limit, and beyond, into the Welsh zone—and establishes appropriate arrangements for managing instances where an intended safety zone is likely to extend beyond Welsh waters.
Amendments 50 and 59 make consequential changes arising from new clause 5. Amendment 50 amends the 2004 Act to establish that regulations made under the new clause will be subject to the negative resolution procedure in the Welsh Assembly. Amendment 59 introduces tailored transitional provisions for the purposes of the offshore renewable energy safety zone provisions in the new clause. It provides that applications for the determination of safety zones received prior to the commencement of the devolution provisions will continue to be the responsibility of the Marine Management Organisation.
Government amendments 45, 46, 53 and 58 make consequential changes to ensure that the new consenting regime put in place by the Bill operates smoothly. The Bill devolves to Welsh Ministers the ability to use the consenting regime that already exists under section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989 for the purposes of granting consent for electricity generation projects up to and including 350 MW in scale in Welsh waters. We recognise that, in due course, Welsh Ministers may wish to modify and improve the offshore consenting regime and, in doing so, apply a consistent regime between territorial waters and the Welsh zone, where the Assembly does not exercise legislative competence.
Amendment 45 will give Welsh Ministers the ability, through a regulation-making power, to make modifications that can apply in territorial waters and the Welsh zone, avoiding any inconsistencies between the two areas and providing more clarity for developers. In establishing regulation-making powers to enable Welsh Ministers to modify and improve the offshore consenting regime in due course, we are keen not to encumber them with restrictions and requirements that might frustrate them in doing so. Amendment 46 therefore serves to disapply in Wales certain aspects of the 1989 Act, leaving Welsh Ministers with greater flexibility for the future.
Amendment 53 makes technical changes consequential on the new devolution boundary that will operate between Welsh Ministers and the Secretary of State once the devolution of electricity generation consenting powers in Welsh waters and marine licensing functions in the Welsh zone is in place. The changes cater for the fact that a marine licence might in future be deemed by Welsh Ministers to be part of a development consent order under the Planning Act 2008.
Amendment 58 introduces tailored transitional provisions for the purposes of the devolved electricity generation consenting provisions of the Bill. In effect, it provides that applications received prior to the commencement of the devolution provisions will continue to proceed to a final decision by the Secretary of State.
Amendments 23 and 24 make technical drafting changes to clause 38 to reflect the fact that, in the onshore context, devolved electricity generation consenting in Wales will be carried out within the regime of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. To avoid ambiguity, the inclusion of the concept of “planning permission” simply reflects the language of that Act.
Clause 42 provides Welsh Ministers with further executive responsibilities in the Welsh offshore region. However, we need to ensure that licensing functions that are reserved activities under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 remain with the Secretary of State in the Welsh offshore region. Amendments 25 and 54 to 56 modify the 2009 Act to clarify the devolution boundary so that, for example, enforcement officers appointed using devolved powers have no powers to enforce part 4 of the 2009 Act, relating to petroleum production or exploration; the amendments also exclude the Welsh inshore and offshore regions from waters in respect of which the Marine Management Organisation exercises certain consenting and safety zone functions.
Amendment 56 modifies the 2009 Act to give Welsh Ministers powers to make regulations about the application procedure when they are both the marine licensing authority and the harbour order authority or generating station authority. Finally, amendment 47 simply removes an obsolete reference to Assembly measures.
The Government amendments are all sensible and necessary, and serve to deliver a clearer devolution boundary, one of the key aims of the Bill.
Wales Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(8 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 118, page 2, line 28, after “7A)” insert
“and is not ancillary to another provision (whether in the Act or another enactment) that does not relate to a reserved matter”.
Clause 3 establishes the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales. This amendment makes clear that the Assembly has power to make provision touching upon reserved matters for the purpose of enforcing provisions in Assembly Acts that do not relate to reserved matters or otherwise making them effective.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 148, page 2, line 33, leave out “subsection (2)(b) does” and insert
“subsections (2)(b) and (2)(c) do”.
The amendment restores the Assembly’s competence by enabling it to legislate in an ancillary way in relation to reserved matters.
Amendment 149, page 2, line 34, leave out from “provision” to end of line 6 on page 3 and insert
“which is within the Assembly’s legislative competence (or would be if it were included in an Act of the Assembly).”
The amendment restores the Assembly’s competence by enabling it to legislate in an ancillary way in relation to reserved matters.
Clause 3 stand part.
Amendment 2, in schedule 1, page 41, line 24, at end insert
“(that is, the property, rights and interests under the management of the Crown Estate Commissioners)
‘(3A) Sub-paragraph (1) does not affect the reservation by paragraph 1 of the requirements of section 90B(5) to (8).”
This amendment is consequential on new Clause (The Crown Estate) which would transfer executive and legislative competence of the Crown Estate in Wales to the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales.
Amendment 6, page 41, line 30 , at end insert—
“2A Paragraph 1 does not reserve the consolidation in English and Welsh of the principal legislation delineating the powers of the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government, including (but not limited to) the Government of Wales Act 2006, the Wales Act 2011 and the Wales Act 2016.”
This amendment would allow the National Assembly for Wales to consolidate in both English and Welsh the statutes bills containing the current constitutional settlement affecting Wales.
Amendment 155, page 42, line 20, leave out “prosecutors” and insert “the Crown Prosecution Service”.
The amendment clarifies the reservation so that “the Crown Prosecution Service” is reserved, rather than “prosecutors” more generally, as this could prohibit Assembly legislation enabling devolved authorities to prosecute, such as local authorities.
Amendment 119, page 42, line 26, leave out sub-paragraphs (2) and (3).
This amendment seeks to allow ancillary provision by removing the exception in paragraph 6(2) and the related definition in paragraph 6(3), so that reliance can be placed on the general power to make ancillary provision made clear by the amendment to clause 3 proposed by amendment 118.
Amendment 83, page 47, line 32, leave out Section B5.
This amendment removes the reservation of crime, public order and policing from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 122, page 48, line 9, leave out
“The subject matter of Parts 1 to 6”
and insert
“Anti-social behaviour injunctions under Part 1”.
This amendment is intended to narrow the reservation to the system of anti-social behaviour injunctions provided for by Part 1 of the 2014 Act.
Amendment 84, page 48, leave out line 11.
This amendment removes the reservation of dangerous dogs and dogs dangerously out of control from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 85, page 48, line 15, leave out Section B8.
This amendment removes the reservation of prostitution from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 86, page 48, line 24, leave out Section B11.
This amendment removes the reservation of the rehabilitation of offenders from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 117, page 49, leave out lines 5 to 10.
This amendment will remove the reservation of knives from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 123, page 49, leave out lines 24 to 29.
Paragraph 55 of the new Schedule 7A to be inserted into the Government of Wales Act 2006 by Schedule 1 would reserve the licensing of the provision of entertainment and late night refreshment from the Assembly’s legislative competence. Paragraph 56 would reserve the sale and supply of alcohol. This amendment removes both reservations.
Amendment 116, page 49, leave out lines 24 to 26.
This amendment will remove the reservation of the licensing of the provision of entertainment and late night refreshment from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 87, page 49, line 27, leave out Section B17.
This amendment removes the reservation of alcohol from the list of reserved powers.
Government amendments 53 to 58.
Amendment 88, page 55, line 5, leave out Section C15.
This amendment removes the reservation of Water and sewerage from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 89, page 55, line 28, leave out Section C17.
This amendment removes the reservation of Sunday trading from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 90, page 55, line 32, leave out Section D1.
This amendment removes the reservation of generation, transmission, distribution and supply of electricity from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 91, page 56, line 27, leave out Section D3.
This amendment removes the reservation of coal from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 92, page 57, line 2, leave out Section D5.
This amendment removes the reservation of heat and cooling from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 93, page 57, line 17, leave out Section D6.
This amendment removes the reservation of energy conservation from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 94, page 57, line 24, leave out Section E1.
This amendment removes the reservation of road transport from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 161, page 57, line 35, leave out from “roads” to the end of line 36 and insert—
“107A Speed limits
107B Road and traffic signs”
This amendment would make speed limits and road and traffic signs reserved matters.
Amendment 95, page 58, leave out line 36.
This amendment removes the reservation of railway services from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 96, page 59, leave out line 21.
This amendment is consequential on amendment 61 to Clause 28 which would remove the exception to the devolution of executive functions in relation to Welsh harbours of “reserved trust ports”.
Amendment 140, page 59, line 21, leave out “Reserved trust ports and”.
Section E3 of the new Schedule 7A to be inserted into the Government of Wales Act 2006 by Schedule 1 would reserve certain marine and waterway transport matters from the Assembly’s legislative competence. Paragraph 119 in that Section would reserve trust ports. This amendment removes this reservation.
Amendment 97, page 59, leave out line 23.
This amendment removes the reservation of coastguard services and maritime search and rescue from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 98, page 59, leave out line 24.
This amendment removes the reservation of hovercraft from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 141, page 59, line 28, leave out “, reserved trust ports or”.
This amendment is consequential upon amendment 140.
Amendment 142, page 59, line 37, leave out
“that is not a reserved trust port”.
This amendment is consequential upon amendment 140.
Amendment 143, page 60, leave out lines 4 to 5.
This amendment is consequential upon amendment 140.
Amendment 100, page 61, line 21, at end insert—
“Benefits entitlement to which, or the purposes of which, are the same as or similar to those of any of the following benefits—
(a) universal credit under Part 1 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012,
(b) jobseeker’s allowance (whether contributions-based or income based) under the Jobseekers Act 1995,
(c) employment and support allowance (whether contributory or income-related) under Part 1 of the Welfare Reform Act 2007,
(d) income support under section 124 of the Social Security and Benefits Act 1992,
(e) housing benefit under section 130 of that Act,
(f) child tax credit and working tax credit under the Tax Credits Act 2002.
The benefits referred to in paragraphs (a) to (f) above are—
(a) in the case of income-based jobseeker’s allowance and income-related employment support allowance, those benefits as they existed on 28 April 2013 (the day before their abolition),
(b) in the case of the other benefits, those benefits as they existed on 28 May 2015.”
This amendment devolves all working age benefits to be replaced by Universal credit, and any benefit introduced to replace Universal credit.
Amendment 101, page 61, line 21, at end insert—
“Benefits entitlement to which, or the purposes of which, are the same as or similar to those of any of the following benefits—
(a) guardian’s allowance under section 77 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992,
(b) child benefit under Part 9 of that Act.”
This amendment devolves to the National Assembly for Wales, child benefit and Guardian’s allowance including conditionality and sanctions regimes.
Amendment 102, page 64, line 17, leave out Section H1.
This amendment would remove employment and industrial relations from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 108, page 64, line 17, leave out Section H1 and insert—
“H1 National Minimum Wage
The subject-matter of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998.”
This amendment would devolve employment rights and duties and industrial relations, except for the national minimum wage, to the National Assembly for Wales.
Amendment 124, page 64, line 44, at end insert—
“Terms and conditions of employment and industrial relations in Wales public authorities and services contracted out or otherwise procured by such authorities.”
Section H1 of the new Schedule 7A to be inserted into the Government of Wales Act 2006 by Schedule 1 would reserve employment rights and duties and industrial relations from Assembly’s legislative competence. This amendment provides an exception to ensure that the Assembly retains its legislative competence over terms and conditions of service for employees in devolved public services and industrial relations in such services.
Amendment 99, page 65, line 7, leave out Section H3.
This amendment would devolve employment support programmes to the National Assembly for Wales.
Amendment 109, page 65, line 24, leave out Section J1.
This amendment removes the reservation of abortion from the list of reserved powers, to bring Wales into line with Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Amendment 103, page 66, line 31, leave out Section J6.
This amendment would remove Health and Safety from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 105, page 67, line 14, leave out Section K1.
This amendment would remove broadcasting form the list of reserved powers
Amendment 107, page 67, line 17, at end insert—
“Exceptions
The regulation of:
(a) party political broadcasts in connection with elections that are within the legislative competence of the Assembly and
(b) referendum campaign broadcasts in connection with referendums held under Acts of the National Assembly for Wales.”
This amendment would devolve competence to the National Assembly for Wales in relation to party political broadcasts for Welsh and local elections.
Amendment 106, page 67, line 29, leave out Section K5.
This amendment would remove sports grounds from the list of reservations
Amendment 110, page 68, line 2, leave out Section L1.
This amendment removes justice from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 111, page 69, line 25, leave out Section L11.
This amendment removes the reservation of prisons and offender management from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 104, page 72, line 14, leave out Section N1.
This amendment would remove equal opportunities from the list of reserved powers
Amendment 112, page 73, line 24, leave out “bank holidays”.
This amendment, along with amendment 85, will devolve to the National Assembly for Wales, competence over bank holidays.
Amendment 113, page 73, line 27, at end insert “bank holidays”.
This amendment, along with amendment 112, will devolve to the National Assembly for Wales, competence over bank holidays.
Amendment 114, page 74, line 7, leave out Section N8.
This amendment will remove the reservation of the Children’s Commissioner from the list of reserved powers.
Amendment 115, page 74, line 11, leave out Section N9.
This amendment will remove the reservation of teacher’s pay and conditions from the list of reserved powers.
That schedule 1 be the First schedule to the Bill.
Amendment 120, in schedule 2, page 77, line 17, at end insert—
“1A Paragraph 1 does not apply to a modification that is ancillary to a provision made (whether by the Act in question or another enactment) which does not relate to reserved matters if it is a modification of the law on reserved matters in paragraph 6 or 7 of Schedule 7A.”
This amendment provides an exception for ancillary provision about certain justice matters that is not subject to a necessity test.
Amendment 121, page 77, line 18, leave out “a” and insert “any other”.
This amendment is consequential upon amendment 120.
Amendment 156, page 77, line 21, leave out from “matters” to end of line 26.
The amendment removes the necessity test in relation to the law on reserved matters.
Amendment 157, page 78, line 2, leave out paragraph 4 and insert—
“4 (1) A provision of an Act of the Assembly cannot make modifications of, or confer power by subordinate legislation to make modifications of, the criminal law. (See also paragraph 6 of Schedule 7A (single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales).)
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to a modification that has a purpose (other than modification of the criminal law) which does not relate to a reserved matter.
(3) This paragraph applies to civil penalties as it applies to offences; and references in this paragraph to the criminal law are to be read accordingly).”
The amendment inserts a restriction so that the Assembly cannot modify criminal law unless it is for a purpose other than a reserved purpose. This would bring it into line with the private law restriction.
Amendment 34, page 79, line 29, leave out from “Assembly” to end of line 39.
The amendment removes the requirements relating to the composition and internal arrangements of the Assembly Committee with oversight of the Auditor General and/or their functions.
Amendment 35, page 80, line 41, at end insert—
“(i) subsection 120(1) as regards a modification that adds a person or body;”
The amendment will enable the Assembly to amend sections 120(1) of the 2006 Act which provide for ‘relevant persons’ which receive funding directly from the Welsh Consolidated Fund.”
Amendment 36, page 80, line 42, at end insert—
(iii) subsection 124(3) as regards a modification that adds a person or body;”
The amendment will enable the Assembly to amend sections 124(3) of the 2006 Act which provide for ‘relevant persons’ which receive funding directly from the Welsh Consolidated Fund.
Amendment 37, page 81, line 22, leave out from “taxes” to end of line 23.
The amendment removes the requirement for Secretary of State consent for the Assembly to amend the provisions of Part 5 of the 2006 Act which are not specifically referred to in paragraph 7(2)(d) and section 159, where the amendment is incidental to, or consequential on, a provision of an Act of the Assembly relating to budgetary procedures.
Amendment 128, page 82, line 30, leave out paragraph (c).
This amendment is consequential upon amendment 127.
Amendment 127, page 82, line 44, at end insert—
‘( ) Paragraph 8(1)(a) and (c) does not apply in relation to the Water Services Regulation Authority.”
This amendment would extend the existing exception for the Water Services Regulation Authority to include the matters that would otherwise be outside competence by virtue of paragraph 8(1)(c) of Schedule 7B.
Amendment 129, page 83, line 42, leave out paragraph (c).
This amendment removes the restriction in paragraph 11(1)(c) of the new Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006 to be inserted by Schedule 2 to the Bill which would prevent the Assembly from legislating to remove or modify functions of a Minister of the Crown exercisable in relation to water and sewerage matters (including control of pollution) and matters relating to land drainage, flood risk management and coastal protection.
That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill.
New clause 7—Levies in respect of agriculture, taking wild game, aquaculture and fisheries, etc.—
“(1) In Schedule 7A to the Government of Wales Act 2006, section A1 is amended as follows.
(2) In the Exceptions, after the exception for devolved taxes insert—
““Levies in respect of agriculture, taking wild game, aquaculture and fisheries (including sea fisheries) or a related activity: their collection and management.”
(3) After the Exceptions insert—
“Interpretation
“agriculture” includes horticulture, fruit growing, seed growing, dairy farming and livestock breeding and keeping, and the use of land as grazing land, meadow land, osier land, market gardens and nursery grounds.
“aquaculture” includes the breeding, rearing or cultivation of fish (of any kind), seafood or aquatic organisms.
“related activity” means the production, processing, manufacture, marketing or distribution of—
(a) anything (including any creature alive or dead) produced or taken in the course of agriculture, taking wild game or aquaculture, or caught (by any means) in a fishery,
(b) any product which is derived to any substantial extent from anything so produced or caught.””
This new clause would give the National Assembly for Wales general legislative competence in respect of agricultural, aquacultural and fisheries levies.
New clause 10—Water Services Regulation Authority—
“(1) In section 27 of the Water Industry Act 1991 (general duty of the authority to keep matters under review)—
(a) in subsection (3), after “may” insert “subject to subsection (3A),”;
(b) after subsection (3), insert—
“(3A) The Secretary of State must obtain the consent of the Welsh Ministers before giving general directions under subsection (3) connected with—
(a) matters in relation to which functions are exercised by water or sewage undertakers whose area is wholly or mainly in Wales,
(b) licensed activities carried out by water supply licensees that use the supply system of a water undertaker whose area is wholly or mainly in Wales, or
(c) licensed activities carried on by sewerage licensees that use the sewerage system of a sewerage undertaker whose area is wholly or mainly in Wales.”;
(c) in subsection (4), in both places where it appears, after “Secretary of State” insert “, the Welsh Ministers”.
(2) In section 192B of the Water Industry Act 1991 (annual and other reports)—
(a) in subsection (1), after “Secretary of State” insert “and the Welsh Ministers”;
(b) in subsection (2)(d), for “as the Assembly” substitute “or activities in Wales as the Welsh Ministers”;
(c) in subsection (4), for “Assembly” substitute “Welsh Ministers”;
(d) after subsection (5) insert—
“(5A) The Welsh Ministers shall—
(a) lay a copy of each annual report before the Assembly; and
(b) arrange for the report to be published in such manner as they consider appropriate;
(c) in subsection (7), omit “the Assembly,””.
(3) In Schedule 1A to the Water Industry Act 1991 (the Water Services Regulation Authority)—
(a) in paragraph 1—
(i) in sub-paragraph (1), after “Secretary of State” insert “and the Welsh Ministers acting jointly”;
(ii) in sub-paragraph (2), omit paragraph (a);
(b) in paragraph 2(2), after “Secretary of State” insert “and the Welsh Ministers acting jointly”;
(c) in paragraph 3—
(i) in sub-paragraph (2), paragraph (a), after “Secretary of State” insert “and the Welsh Ministers”;
(ii) in sub-paragraph (2), paragraph (b), after “Secretary of State” insert “and the Welsh Ministers acting jointly”;
(iii) omit sub-paragraph (3);
(d) in paragraph 4—
(i) in sub-paragraph (1) and (2), in each place where it appears, after “Secretary of State” insert “and the Welsh Ministers acting jointly”;
(ii) in sub-paragraph (3), for “determines” substitute “and the Welsh Ministers acting jointly determine” and at the end insert “and the Welsh Ministers acting jointly”;
(e) in paragraph 9(3)(b), for “Assembly” substitute “Welsh Ministers”.”
This new clause would amend the Water Industry Act 1991 to confer functions relating to the Water Services Regulation Authority (OFWAT) (which exercises functions in England and Wales) onto the Welsh Ministers and it would adjust the functions of the Secretary of State to better reflect the current devolution of water matters to Wales.
Amendment 61, in clause 28, page 23, line 32, leave out from “Wales” to the end of line 33.
This amendment removes the exception to the devolution of executive functions in relation to Welsh harbours of “reserved trust ports”.
Amendment 134, page 23, line 38, leave out subsection (4).
Clause 28(4) provides an exception to the general transfer of functions by clause 28 so that where a function relates to two or more harbours the function is transferred only to the extent that both or all of the harbours to which it relates are wholly in Wales and are not reserved trust ports. This amendment is partly consequential upon amendment 61, but it would also ensure that the Welsh Ministers retain functions where one harbour is in Wales and the other is not.
Amendment 62, page 23, line 40, leave out “and are not reserved trust ports”.
See amendment 61.
Amendment 63, page 24, leave out line 6.
See amendment 61.
Clause 28 stand part.
Amendment 64, in clause 29, page 24, line 13, leave out
“, other than a reserved trust port,”
See amendment 61.
Amendment 65, page 24, line 17, leave out
“, other than reserved trust ports”.
See amendment 61.
Amendment 66, page 24, line 21, leave out
“or a reserved trust port”.
See amendment 61.
Amendment 67, page 24, line 25, leave out
“other than a reserved trust port”.
See amendment 61.
Amendment 68, page 24, line 26, leave out subsection (5).
See amendment 61.
Amendment 69, page 24, line 31, leave out
“other than a reserved trust port”
See amendment 61.
Clauses 29 to 31 stand part.
Amendment 137, in clause 32, page 25, leave out lines 34 to 39 and insert—
(a) will be wholly or partly in England or in waters adjacent to England up to the seaward limits of the territorial sea, and.””
This amendment is consequential upon amendment 61.
Amendment 71, page 25, line 39, leave out “a reserved trust port”.
See amendment 61.
Amendment 138, page 25, line 41, leave out from beginning to end of line 3 on page 26 and insert—
(a) the harbour facilities are wholly or partly in England or in waters adjacent to England up to the seaward limits of the territorial sea, and.””
This amendment is consequential upon amendment 61.
Amendment 72, page 26, line 2, leave out from “and” to end of line 3.
See amendment 61.
Amendment 73, page 26, line 4, leave out subsection (4).
See amendment 61.
Clauses 32 to 35 stand part.
New clause 1—The Crown Estate—
“After section 89 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, insert—
“89B The Crown Estate
(1) The Treasury may make a scheme transferring on the transfer date all the existing Welsh functions of the Crown Estate Commissioners (“the Commissioners”) to the Welsh Ministers or a person nominated by the Welsh Ministers (“the transferee”).
(2) The existing Welsh functions are the Commissioners’ functions relating to the part of the Crown Estate that, immediately before the transfer date, consists of—
(a) property, rights or interests in land in Wales, excluding property, rights or interests mentioned in subsection (3), and
(b) rights in relation to the Welsh zone.
(3) Where immediately before the transfer date part of the Crown Estate consists of property, rights or interests held by a limited partnership registered under the Limited Partnerships Act 1907, subsection (2)(a) excludes—
(a) the property, rights or interests, and
(b) any property, rights or interests in, or in a member of, a partner in the limited partnership.
(4) Functions relating to rights within subsection (2)(b) are to be treated for the purposes of this Act as exercisable in or as regards Wales.
(5) The property, rights and interests to which the existing Welsh functions relate must continue to be managed on behalf of the Crown.
(6) That does not prevent the disposal of property, rights or interests for the purposes of that management.
(7) Subsection (5) also applies to property, rights or interests acquired in the course of that management (except revenues to which section 1(1) of the Civil List Act 1952 applies or are to be paid into the Welsh Consolidated Fund).
(8) The property, rights and interests to which subsection (5) applies must be maintained as an estate in land or as estates in land managed separately (with any proportion of cash or investments that seems to the person managing the estate to be required for the discharge of functions relating to its management).
(9) The scheme may specify any property, rights or interests that appear to the Treasury to fall within subsection (2)(a) or (b), without prejudice to the functions transferred by the scheme.
(10) The scheme must provide for the transfer to the transferee of designated rights and liabilities of the Commissioners in connection with the functions transferred.
(11) The scheme must include provision to secure that the employment of any person in Crown employment (within the meaning of section 191 of the Employment Rights Act 1996) is not adversely affected by the transfer.
(12) The scheme must include such provision as the Treasury consider necessary or expedient—
(a) in the interests of defence or national security,
(b) in connection with access to land for the purposes of telecommunications, or with other matters falling within Section C9 in Part 2 of Schedule 1,
(c) for securing that the management of property, rights or interests to which subsection (5) applies does not conflict with the exploitation of resources falling within Section D2 in Part 2 of Schedule 1, or with other reserved matters in connection with their exploitation, and
(d) for securing consistency, in the interests of consumers, in the management of property, rights or interests to which subsection (5) applies and of property, rights or interests to which the Commissioners’ functions other than the existing Welsh functions relate, so far as it affects the transmission or distribution of electricity or the provision or use of electricity interconnectors.
(13) Any transfer by the scheme is subject to any provision under subsection (12).
(14) The scheme may include—
(a) incidental, supplemental and transitional provision,
(b) consequential provision, including provision amending an enactment, instrument or other document,
(c) provision conferring or imposing a function on any person including any successor of the transferee,
(d) provision for the creation of new rights or liabilities in relation to the functions transferred.
(15) On the transfer date, the existing Welsh functions and the designated rights and liabilities are transferred and vest in accordance with the scheme.
(16) A certificate by the Treasury that anything specified in the certificate has vested in any person by virtue of the scheme is conclusive evidence for all purposes.
(17) The Treasury may make a scheme under this section only with the agreement of the Welsh Ministers.
(18) The power to make a scheme under this section is exercisable by statutory instrument, a draft of which has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, the National Assembly for Wales.
(19) The power to amend the scheme is exercisable so as to provide for an amendment to have effect from the transfer date.
(20) If an order amends a scheme and does not contain provision—
(a) made by virtue of subsection (12) or (19) of that section, or
(b) adding to, replacing or omitting any part of the text of an Act,
then, instead of subsection (18), the instrument containing the legislation shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
(21) For the purposes of the exercise on and after the transfer date of functions transferred by the scheme under this section, the Crown Estate Act 1961 applies in relation to the transferee as it applied immediately before that date to the Crown Estate Commissioners, with the following modifications—
(a) a reference to the Crown Estate is to be read as a reference to the property, rights and interests to which subsection (5) applies,
(b) the appropriate procedure for subordinate legislation is that no Minister of the Crown is to make the legislation unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament,
(c) a reference to the Treasury is to be read as a reference to the Welsh Ministers,
(d) a reference to the Comptroller and Auditor General is to be read as a reference to the Auditor General for Wales,
(e) a reference to Parliament or either House of Parliament is to be read as a reference to the National Assembly for Wales,
(f) the following do not apply—
(None) in section 1, subsections (1), (4) and (7),
(None) in section 2, subsections (1) and (2) and, if the Welsh Ministers are the transferee, the words in subsection (3) from “in relation thereto” to the end,
(None) in section 4, the words “with the consent of Her Majesty signified under the Royal Sign Manual”,
(None) sections 5, 7 and 8 and Schedule 1.
(22) Subsection (7) is subject to any provision made by Order in Council under subsection (9) or by any other enactment, including an enactment comprised in, or in an instrument made under, an Act of the National Assembly for Wales.
(23) Her Majesty may by Order in Council make such provision as She considers appropriate for or in connection with the exercise by the transferee under the scheme (subject to subsections (5) to (8)) of functions transferred by the scheme, including provision taking effect on or before the transfer date.
(24) An Order in Council under subsection (23) may in particular—
(a) establish a body, including a body that may be nominated under that section as the transferee,
(b) amend, repeal, revoke or otherwise modify an enactment, an Act or Measure of the National Assembly for Wales, or an instrument made under an enactment or Act or Measure of the National Assembly for Wales.
(25) The power to make an Order in Council under subsection (24) is exercisable by Welsh statutory instrument subject to the affirmative procedure.
(26) That power is to be regarded as being exercisable within devolved competence before the transfer date for the purposes of making provision consequential on legislation of, or scrutinised by, the National Assembly for Wales.
(27) In this section—
“designated” means specified in or determined in accordance with the scheme,
“the transfer date” means a date specified by the scheme as the date on which the scheme is to have effect.””
This new clause mirrors the Scotland Act 2016 in transferring executive and legislative competence of the Crown Estate in Wales to the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales.
Paul Flynn
Since we met in Committee last week, we have had the wonderful celebration of the Wales team’s great achievement in the European cup, which is a matter of enormous pride to us as a nation. I was delighted to see the celebrations on Saturday, which were the biggest thing to happen in Cardiff since VE-day and VJ-day, which I am sure we both remember, Mr Hoyle, if not since when Cardiff won the FA cup in 1926. These events will bring many benefits for the people of Wales. We feel pride not just in the skills of our team, but in the behaviour of our fans.
I saw a performance by the Secretary of State on television yesterday in which he was dancing with a ball on his head and foot. It seemed to be a wordless message; I did not quite get the point. Given these uncertain political times, he might have been auditioning for a future job as a circus performer, but perhaps there was a subliminal message that had he been substituted for Aaron Ramsey, the result of the Portugal game might have been different. None the less, we have had a moment of great happiness for our country. It is a joy to think that the beautiful national language in our anthem was probably heard by more people than at any time in its 3,000-year history. That intrigued many people, and Wales has been given a much sharper identity that will bring about practical benefits.
The Bill’s is proceeding in a consensual way. A great political tumult is going on about our ears, in various forms, but here is an oasis of calm and good sense, as all parties support a beneficial Bill that will give Wales further devolution. Progress on that is slow and endless, but the Bill is a step forward.
I will speak first to amendments 118 and 119. Amendment 118, together with consequential amendments to paragraph 6 of proposed new section 7A to the Government of Wales Act 2006 under schedule 1, and to paragraph 1 of proposed new schedule 7B under schedule 2, take us back to issues flowing from the Government’s insistence on retaining the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. In accepting that position, as we must following last Tuesday’s Division, we must now ensure that the Assembly has, within the single jurisdiction, powers that enable its legislation to be enforceable and effective, which is what amendment 118 would achieve.
In our view, the Bill as drafted would restrict the Assembly’s legislative competence inappropriately and reverse the competence given to the Assembly under the 2006 Act, section 108(5) of which allows the Assembly to make what might be termed “ancillary” provisions. At present, the Assembly has competence to legislate on matters relating to one or more of the listed subjects in part 1 of schedule 7 to the 2006 Act. That Act also provides that the Assembly has powers to make provision about non-devolved matters when that is done to make a devolved provision effective or to enforce a provision if it is otherwise consequential or incidental to the devolved provision. My understanding is that this is not the UK Government’s intention, meaning that our old friend unintentional consequences might well apply.
I am sure that the Government do not, in common with all parties in the House, intend to prevent the Assembly from making provision to enforce or to make effective devolved legislation. However, the Bill currently either prevents that, or is unclear about whether the Assembly will have the same ability as at present. Under the reserved power model, an Assembly Act will be outside competence if it relates to a reserved matter in proposed new schedule 7A. There is no express equivalent in the Bill to section 108(5) of the 2006 Act. Provisions relating to reserved matters will be outside competence and will not be law even if the intent of the provision in question is confined to making legislation effective or to enforce it. Other provisions are designed to address this issue, but Welsh Government officials have provided the Wales Office with several examples of when the Bill as drafted would have prevented uncontentious provisions in Assembly Acts from being included in that legislation.
These are not hypothetical problems. We have a strange history of the consequences of legislation. We have sometimes had legislation that was cumbersome and slow, while we have also seen judge-driven legislation involving Acts that were subject to adjudication by people outside Wales. Unless the Bill is amended as we propose, the Assembly’s ability to make its legislation enforceable and effective will be inappropriately constrained, and I do not believe that that is the Secretary of State’s intention. We shall not press the amendments to a Division, but I urge the Secretary of State to give very careful consideration to the issues that they raise, to instruct his officials to discuss them further with Welsh Government officials and to table amendments on Report that reflect an agreed position on this important issue.
Let me mention some of the general principles that should apply to our consideration of the schedule of reserved matters. In a reserved power model, it is for the UK Government to explain why the relevant subject matter must be reserved to the centre—to the UK Parliament and Government—for decision. Much of the schedule’s content is uncontroversial. It is common ground that matters such as foreign affairs, the armed forces and the UK’s security system should be determined at a UK level. On other matters, however, the situation is more contested. If reservations affect the Assembly’s existing competence, it is vital that the case for them is made explicitly and that the drafting of the relevant provision is precise and specific. That is essential to protect the Assembly’s ability to legislate coherently and within its competence.
Amendment 83 deals with policing, which is an interesting subject area in which change is desirable. The UK Government’s own Silk commission recommended devolution of policing on the basis that it is a public service that is a particular concern to people in their daily lives, and therefore similar to health, education and the fire service. That conclusion was reached in the light of extensive evidence, including from professional police bodies, chief constables and police and crime commissioners. I understand that the four present PCCs in Wales are in favour of such a change, and opinion polls show clear public support for it.
Silk noted that devolution would improve accountability by aligning police responsibility with police funding, much of which already comes from devolved sources. In short, he argued that devolution would allow crime and the causes of crime to be tackled holistically under the overall policy framework of the Welsh Government. As Silk noted, present arrangements are “complex”, “incoherent” and “lack transparency”.
Policing is the only major front-line public service that is not at present the responsibility of the devolved institutions in Wales. That anomalous position means that it is significantly more difficult to achieve advantages of collaboration with other blue light services, which is strongly advocated for England in current Government policy, as well as with other relevant public services. Deleting the reservation would address that anomaly, but responsibility for counter-terrorism activity should not be devolved—I would continue to argue that it should be reserved under paragraph 31 of new schedule 7A. The Assembly would be able to legislate in respect of bodies such as the National Crime Agency and the British Transport police only with the consent of UK Ministers, because they are “public authorities” within the meaning of paragraph 8 of new schedule 7B, which restricts the Assembly’s powers in respect of such bodies.
After reflecting on the Silk commission’s recommendations, what is envisaged is the devolution of responsibilities predominantly for local policing. The key point is that devolution would enable police services in Wales to work even more closely alongside other devolved public bodies, with greater opportunities to secure improved community safety and crime prevention.
In England—this is a fine example on which we can base our recommendations—the UK Government are pushing forward the devolution of policing and justice powers with the greatest enthusiasm. Only last week, it was reported that the Minister responsible for prisons—the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous)—declared himself as
“a firm fan of devolution”.
Having signed over new powers to the mayor of Greater Manchester, he hailed
“a new dawn for the justice system”
that is
“run by locals, for locals”
and is an effective justice system that meets the needs of local people. However, in a reserved power model of devolution for Wales, there is an overriding imperative to keep the control of these matters in Whitehall. Where is the consistency and fair treatment for Wales? If something is good enough for Manchester, surely it is good enough for Wales.
Amendment 122 deals with antisocial behaviour. Whatever the outcome on policing, it is imperative that we do not reduce the Assembly’s existing competence for dealing with antisocial behaviour in devolved contexts. That is why there needs to be an amendment to paragraph 41 of new schedule 7A, which relates to antisocial behaviour. As drafted, the Bill would reserve matters that are currently within the Assembly’s legislative competence, such as antisocial behavioural matters relating to housing or nuisance. That would represent a significant reduction of the Assembly’s existing competence, so the Welsh Government amendment would narrow the reservation to more closely reflect the current situation.
Amendment 123 is on the vexed subject of alcohol. As drafted, the Bill would reserve the sale and supply of alcohol, and the licensing of provision of entertainment and late-night refreshment. The amendment would delete the reservations and allow the Assembly to legislate on those matters.
Alcohol misuse is a major public health issue and a principal cause of preventable death and illness in Wales. It can lead to a great many health and social harm problems, in particular for a significant minority of addicts and people who drink to excess for other reasons. Given those impacts and the direct link with devolved responsibility for public health and the NHS, there is a pressing need to tackle alcohol misuse, so the Assembly and Welsh Government must have the full range of tools at their disposal. Policies that control the way in which alcohol is sold and supplied are widely acknowledged to be among the most effective mechanisms for tackling alcohol-related harms. Regulating the availability of alcohol is an important way to reduce the harmful use of alcohol, particularly by tackling easy access to alcohol by vulnerable and high-risk groups. Licensing controls are an essential tool which must form part of the Welsh Government’s strategy to tackle alcohol- related abuse. The reservations place unnecessary and inappropriate constraints on action to tackle alcohol availability in Wales. Those powers are devolved in Scotland and in Northern Ireland, where similar public health challenges were faced, and they should also be devolved in Wales.
Wales Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(8 years, 8 months ago)
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Glyn Davies
I think Owain Glyndwr lived a significant part of his life in my constituency of Montgomeryshire—in Sycharth in Llansilin.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Boundary changes are upon us, so who knows what might happen.
Susan Elan Jones
Yes, I am sure he did.
Since the establishment of devolution, the Assembly has gained full law-making powers. I know that the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies) discussed having the power to abolish the Welsh Assembly. Let us remind him and others that we had a referendum to establish full law-making powers. What a delight it was to look at parts of north-east Wales, which had voted against the establishment of the Welsh Assembly, and see them backing full law-making powers.
The powers have gone along, and critically, Wales has led the way, introducing the landmark Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013 and the landmark Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse & Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, the first of its kind in Europe. This Bill will now further enhance the Assembly’s powers by devolving a range of important new responsibilities.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West provided some great examples from history, and my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen mentioned Jim Griffiths. I wish to be allowed to be a little partisan for a few moments as a north Walian. I am thinking of people who have fought for this devolution over the years, some of them household names, some not. I mention some north Wales Labour MPs: Cledwyn Hughes who represented Anglesey; Goronwy Roberts of Caernarfon; Eirene White from Flintshire; Robert Richards, James Idwal Jones and Tom Ellis of Wrexham; Thomas William Jones and Will Edwards of Meirionnydd. These were some of the people who carried the flame of devolution through very difficult times. Anyone who suggests that Welsh Labour is not behind this development is wrong. We look at our history, and we see that we are proud to death of the creation of the National Assembly and what it has achieved.
Finally, while I hope we will not need another Welsh Grand Committee—I do not say ever—to get this Bill sorted out, I trust that when we next meet in that Committee, we will be able to use both the official languages of Wales. I was pleased to see that the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee today supported that, as Members on the Opposition side have already done. As the Bill reminds us, English and Welsh have equal status in Wales, and there are Members of different parties who speak both languages. I hope that when the Minister gets to his feet, he can, as a Welsh speaker, throw his support behind our campaign to get the rules changed.
We look forward to the next stages of the Bill. I dare say there may well be a few amendments coming along, but we want the House and the Welsh Assembly to work as closely as we can together. At the end of the day, devolution for Wales means what it has always meant—how to get the best for our people in Wales.
Steel Industry
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(9 years, 3 months ago)
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Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I am dropping the time limit to two minutes. I call Stephen Doughty.
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
My heart goes out to steelworkers, and their families, who are at risk of losing their jobs at Tata Steel, both north and south of the border, as well as to those whose associated jobs are also at risk. This is a huge blow to Lanarkshire, and we now learn that as well as the threat to steel jobs in Dalzell and Clydebridge, North Lanarkshire Council is consulting on shedding up to 1,100 jobs thanks to public sector cuts from this UK Government. This is a very worrying time in my area.
Yesterday, Fergus Ewing MSP, Minister for Business, Energy and Tourism, delivered a statement to the Scottish Parliament about the crisis, so let me contrast the approach taken by the two Governments so far. The Scottish Government took the first opportunity after the recess to go to the Chamber and make a statement; the UK Government had to be dragged to the Chamber by an urgent question and now an Opposition day debate.
In his statement Mr Ewing said:
“let me be clear from the outset that we will leave no stone unturned in our efforts to save the steel industry in Scotland. Our top priority is to secure an alternative operator to continue with commercial production. We are aware that that task is not an easy one and that there are significant challenges facing the continued production of steel in Scotland, but we are determined, as a Government, to use all our resources and, as ministers, to devote our individual time and attention, as required, to do absolutely everything that we can do to prevent the loss of steel making in Scotland.”
The Scottish Government had asked to be part of EU talks on the steel crisis, but this Government refused as they continue to abandon their so-called and short-lived respect agenda—an agenda that has been further abandoned by the revelation that the Prime Minister shamefully refused to meet my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows). I sincerely hope that a buyer can be found for the Tata sites, and that the steel industry can continue. For that to happen, the Scottish Government must work through the taskforce—
Marion Fellows
Does my hon. Friend agree that the trade unions, especially Community, have been fundamental in keeping the two Scottish plants going this far, and that this has been recognised by the Scottish Government, unlike by the Conservative party, which seeks—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. That intervention is far too long. We want short interventions. We should be on to the vote by now. We have been very generous and it has been abused.
Margaret Ferrier
I thank my hon. Friend for intervening.
I welcome yesterday’s announcement from Scottish business Minister, Fergus Ewing, that Transport Scotland is reviewing all its infrastructure projects, looking at how public procurement might be utilised to help to stimulate the industry.
Steel is used to create more than 80% of the components required to build a typical wind turbine, and plate steel from Tata’s Scunthorpe and Dalzell mills is used in the fabrication of these renewables. UK Government policy on the removal of support for renewables will have an adverse impact along the supply chain, particularly on the steel industry. Plans to cut support for renewables need to be dropped now. The UK has the highest carbon tax in the world. More than half the UK power price is made up of this tax. Steel needs to be given the recognition it deserves in helping to grow the renewables sector, thus reducing carbon emissions in the long term.
I welcome today’s announcement that the Government will refund energy intensive industries for the full amount of the policy costs they face as soon as the state aid judgment comes from Brussels. The Chancellor, however, must take lessons from our European neighbours who have taken matters into their own hands to support their industries, and then obtained state aid clearance retrospectively. A bold move like that could almost certainly facilitate the process of finding a buyer for the sites in Scotland.
Chinese overproduction is leading to steel being sold below market price, and this is being achieved only through Government subsidy in China. Approximately 70% of the Chinese steel industry is thought to be unprofitable. If this were the UK, the industry would have collapsed by now. In short, the European steel market is fighting with one hand tied behind its back. We have both hands bound and the playing field urgently needs to be levelled.
We need a real long-term strategy for steel. We owe it to the thousands of steelworkers across the UK and their families to support them and ensure a sustainability and security of employment. I will work with anyone to help to secure a future for the industry and the jobs of steelworkers in my constituency and right across the UK.
Saving British steel will not be easy, but we must now rise to the challenge and explore every possible option, so we can reach what should be a shared aim for all in this place. We must never give up on the steel industry and the highly skilled workers in their hour of need.
Andy McDonald
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. We hear from the Minister that no people were coming forward to discuss projects to take over at SSI. She needs to correct that position, because there were consortiums of—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. That is not a point of order, but a point of debate. I understand that emotions are running very high.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I now have to announce the result of a deferred Division on the question relating to Joint Committee on Human Rights. The Ayes were 485 and the Noes were 61, so the question was agreed to.
[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]
Welsh Affairs
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(9 years, 11 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I do not want to impose a time limit, but unfortunately I shall have to if Members stray over the 12 minutes that I have advised. But please, use up to 12 minutes by all means. That way, we will fit everyone in.
Paul Flynn
Yes, it was St John’s, the old school on the other side of the river, which became part of Clytha primary.
The school was set up in the teeth of all kinds of very powerful opposition, but some of those first pupils who are now 50 years old are now teachers of Welsh themselves in other schools. We are seeing the great triumph of the Welsh language and the great strength that it has now. That is very moving and we should celebrate it. Whenever people ask, “What’s special about the Welsh language?”, I point to its beauty. On Radio 4 last Saturday, somebody who teaches it in Brighton talked about the cadence of the language. Listen to the magic of the words, the soft, seductive words:
“Nant y Mynydd groyw loyw, Yn ymdroelli tua’r pant, Rhwng y brwyn yn sisial ganu; O na bawn i fel y nant!”
The language is also muscular:
“Argoed, Argoed y mannau dirgel, Ble’r oedd dy fryniau, dy hafanu dyfnion, Dy drofau tywyll, dy drefi tawel?”
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I think we may have to help the Hansard reporters at this rate. We need to try to ensure that they are not struggling too much.
Paul Flynn
Among the improvements we have seen is that there are now Hansard reporters who are proficient in Welsh. We do not have problems now.
I want to talk about the neglect of our history. As a member of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, I am bored stiff with Magna Carta. It was significant because it gave some kind of democracy to about 25 barons and their families and took a bit of power away from the King, but to compare it to cyfraith Hywel Dda is nonsense. After Magna Carta, the English were living in the dark ages compared with 10th-century Wales under cyfraith Hywel Dda.
Owen Smith
We will stand on our record of having trebled the funding for Wales during our period in office. While the Under-Secretary has been in office, the spending for Wales has been cut by £1.5 billion. So we will stand proudly on our record and we can rest assured that the people of Wales will understand that we will deliver for Wales.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We do need to bring the Secretary of State on, because we still need two minutes at the end.
Owen Smith
Lots of Members in this House today have invoked history in this important debate, and I will do that one more time. The Prime Minister, in his amusing recent speech, said:
“The Welsh dragon is roaring again—and it’s not red, it’s blue.”
I suggest that, historically speaking, we ought to invoke another great Welshman, the first leader of the Labour party and former Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare, Keir Hardie, the anniversary of whose death we celebrate this year. He said that Wales is represented by “Y Ddraig Goch a’r Faner Goch”—the red dragon on the red flag of Labour. That was true in 1915 and it will be true again, I trust, on 8 May 2015.
Government Policies (Wales)
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(10 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I advise the House that the amendment has not been selected.
Stephen Crabb
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The shadow Secretary of State has just claimed from the Dispatch Box that I was laughing at the news that the ward in Caerphilly is now the most deprived—[Interruption.] Not at all—it is a complete untruth, and I ask him to withdraw it.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I am sure that the shadow Secretary of State has taken your comments on board.
Owen Smith
Let us look at some of the symptoms in Wales of the disease of Tory economics, starting with food banks, because they are a useful barometer of this Tory Government’s impact. The volume of food banks in Wales has grown at a faster rate than anywhere else in Britain. In the first six months of this year, 40,000 people in Wales were forced to use them. That is a tenfold increase since 2010, when just 4,000 people used them. By the end of this year, it will have been a twentyfold increase, which is an extraordinary statistic.
Wayne David
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Today, the Welsh Government have published figures showing that for the first time Lansbury Park is now the poorest ward in Wales. I ask the hon. Gentleman to retract his remark.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
That was not a point of order, but I am certain that the hon. Gentleman has clarified his position.
Stephen Crabb
Not until every section and geographical part of Wales is sharing in the benefits of recovery will we talk meaningfully about a full economic recovery in Wales. There is no complacency on the Government Benches about that.
To round off the debate about Caerphilly, I must point out that under the last Labour Government, of which the hon. Gentleman was a member, unemployment in his constituency rose by 92%, whereas it has fallen by 31% under this coalition Government. I say with all humility that he should be trumpeting that and welcoming the fact that today there are more men, women, lads and girls going out to work in his constituency than there were under Labour.
Stephen Crabb
My hon. Friend makes an important intervention and we look forward to hearing more from him later in this important debate. It is about values, but over the last week, the mask has finally slipped—yet another example of Labour’s mask slipping. We saw it last week when a member of the Opposition Front-Bench team saw fit to ridicule someone’s home just because they had a white van parked outside it and were displaying the flag of St George. The Labour party can no longer with any credibility claim to be the workers party. It is the party of the liberal metropolitan elite, that sneers at hard-working people. Today Labour Members should be on their feet championing workers in their constituencies —[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I am struggling to hear the Secretary of State. I am sure that we all want to hear him.
Stephen Crabb
Time and again we see that the Labour party simply does not believe in the people of Wales. It thinks it knows best, it does not believe that people can manage their benefits, it does not believe that businesses are strong enough to play their part in rebalancing the economy and it certainly does not believe that Wales is an ambitious country hungry for success.
I believe those things and so do this Government, from the Prime Minister down. We reject the negativity of the Labour party, which is using this debate to talk Wales down at the very time that it should be backing Welsh businesses and backing the people of Wales who are working so hard to drive the economic recovery forward. Since the election, 46,000 fewer people in Wales are claiming out of work benefits, there are 90,000 more private sector jobs in Wales and 26,000 more small businesses are driving the economy forward. That is all down to the difficult decisions taken by the coalition Government back in 2010 to get the economy moving again. Each one of those decisions was challenged and rejected by Labour.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Can I just say that all Members will have six minutes?
Dr Francis
No, I will not.
I am not afraid to speak on devolved matters, because they are pertinent to issues we are discussing today. I wish to talk about higher education. In doing so, I declare an interest as honorary chair of the college of arts and humanities in Swansea university. I warmly commend my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) for the way in which he outlined the very difficult circumstances all the people of Wales are suffering as a consequence of the austerity programme. The excellent report by Sheffield Hallam university outlines the severe difficulties that many vulnerable, precarious communities such as Glyncorrwg, Cymmer and Gwynfi in my constituency are now facing, not only as a result of welfare cuts—something the report deals with—but local government cuts being brought forward as a result of UK Government policies.
Despite those difficulties, we have a surviving and prospering steel industry. I am sad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) is not in his place, because I want to pay him a compliment. The steel industry is prospering in Wales because of the way in which we have developed a partnership. That partnership was pioneered in the immediate post-devolution period by my right hon. Friend when he was Secretary of State for Wales and I was privileged to be his special adviser. He devised a system of partnership between the UK Government and the Welsh Government. People worried about the time when there would be different political parties in power, but we believed genuinely that that partnership would survive different political parties being in power in Cardiff Bay and Westminster. We live in hope that the idea of partnership will be revived and developed.
I want to move on to the subject of higher education without losing the theme of partnership and the respect agenda. Higher education is of course a devolved matter, but decisions taken here in Westminster have a great bearing on macro-economic issues relating to visas, the need for synergy between England and Wales, and research funding. I am pleased to say that, come next September, my old university will be located in my constituency of Aberavon. Members may not know this, but a second Swansea university campus is being built in Aberavon. Perhaps Swansea university ought to be renamed Aberavon university. The major success of this development, which we should be trumpeting, is based on the partnership between the Welsh Government —I commend in particular the role of the First Minister, Carwyn Jones—and the university. I am not sure whether the Secretary of State has visited the campus—his predecessor did—but he should do so in order to see the role of the UK Government and Europe. The European Investment Bank said that this was the best project of its kind it has ever funded in terms of the interface between business and higher education. That is a remarkable compliment to the interface between my local authority—Neath Port Talbot county borough council, led by my friend Councillor Alun Thomas—and the university.
Perhaps most importantly, despite all the difficulties, that development is a Welsh Government achievement. Sir Terry Matthews, a Welsh businessman on the world stage, is now the chair of the Swansea-based city region. He is a Swansea university graduate, a man of considerable experience—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman has run out of time, but not to worry.
Wales Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I think the hon. Members for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) need to calm down a little. In fairness, everybody has been able to put their point of view. I am sorry they do not accept what the shadow Minister is saying, but they cannot shout from the Benches in that way.
Nia Griffith
I am not sure how the Conservative party will find people to stand for it when many of its Members are simply rubbishing Wales in order to further their electoral interests in England. It may be very difficult for the Conservatives to find people, but if they can they should not try to overturn the ban on the dual candidacy. That is the whole point, is it not?
Mr Deputy Speaker
Don’t bring me into this! I certainly did not say that. It is up to the shadow Minister whether she wishes to give way, not the advice from the Chair.
Nia Griffith
In that case, Plaid Cymru Members have had one intervention already and I think that is enough, especially as they have had a long time today to raise different issues.
We in Llanelli felt let down by the abuse of the dual candidacy system. It was like having a massive cuckoo sitting in a nest in which it did not belong, neglecting all the other constituencies and focusing solely on one, whereas the proper role of a list Assembly Member is to look at broader issues, as Joyce Watson is doing with human trafficking and Rebecca Evans with disability.
We are strongly opposed to clause 2, which would reverse the ban on dual candidacy. Apart from that, we are generally in favour of the Bill and welcome it. I will table amendments in Committee and we will oppose dual candidacy, but all in all we are in favour of the Bill.
Commission on Devolution in Wales
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
That is not a point of order, as the hon. Gentleman knows, but it is a customary courtesy in this House that if a Member mentions another Member they then give way to them. That is up to the Member concerned, however.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Before I call the next speaker, I remind hon. Members that we have six speakers and one hour and 20 minutes left. We ought to make sure that we get everybody in, as this is an important debate for all who wish to take part.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We have to be very careful about time now; I think that the length of that speech was rather excessive. We still have four Members to get in and roughly 44 minutes left for them to speak.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We are having a debate on devolution in Wales, so I am not quite sure whether a future debate is relevant. We ought to stick to the agenda.
Owen Smith
Indeed, and thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Today’s debate and the Silk commission are extremely important, and I welcome them for two reasons. First, they enable the discussion of issues of genuine magnitude. Part I of the commission’s role on fiscal powers, and part II on the boundaries between the competences of Westminster and Wales, both cover enormously important issues that will have an impact on people in Wales in particular and across the rest of the UK. Secondly, the debate is important because it provides an opportunity to discuss the wider issue of the Union, to which my article referred, and the wider context in which the Silk commission is set. A lot of Members, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) in his excellent contribution, have taken that opportunity. I wish to talk about that wider context.
Government Members, including the Secretary of State, have looked askance today at Opposition Members who have said that they are suspicious of the motivation that may lie behind some of the remarks that have been made, and perhaps even behind the Government’s whole direction of travel with regard to the Union. We are seeing diminishing support from the Conservative party for the concept of the Union.
Those concerns are not plucked out of thin air, and they are not illegitimate. They are born of our reading and listening to comments made by Conservative Members, and of hearing comments such as those of the former Prime Minister, Sir John Major, who said that Scottish ambition was “fraying English tolerance”. They come from reading the conclusions of the report commissioned by the Prime Minister, when he was in opposition, from the current Justice Secretary. It recommended that the only way to deal with the West Lothian question was to create an English Parliament with English votes on English issues, denying Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish Members a vote.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. There are three speakers to go, and we have 25 minutes left for them. If they can divide that time equally, that would be very helpful.
Mrs Laing
Of course, because some areas of London are desperately in need of help from taxpayers’ money. There are enormous areas of poverty, deprivation and need in London; that is why it happens. Of course it does. If the hon. Gentleman is not willing to be fair to people who live in London, why should the rest of the country be fair to his constituents?
That brings me to the other points made by the hon. Member for Pontypridd and the right hon. Member for Torfaen. Although I would argue that the distribution of taxpayers’ money is currently done fairly, the democratic balance between different parts of our United Kingdom has not, until now, been fair. It is totally outrageous that the hon. Member for Pontypridd should describe as “shameless gerrymandering” the equalisation of constituencies. In what way is it democratically fair that Pontypridd has 58,000 electors, Torfaen 61,000 and Neath 57,000, while the Secretary of State’s constituency has 70,000 and mine has 72,000?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We are debating devolution, not constituency size. We are in danger of dragging the debate somewhere we should not be going to at this time of the evening.
Mrs Laing
Of course, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was merely illustrating the balance of fairness, and saying that if we are to distribute funds fairly, we should distribute democracy fairly, too. Many Opposition Members have made that point this afternoon, and it was time for it to be corrected. I am glad you allowed me to do so, Mr Deputy Speaker. I appreciate that we have had a long debate and that Opposition Members still wish to speak, so I shall be brief.
The constitutional development of our country is ongoing and continuous. Like other Members, I was not in favour of devolution to begin with, but I have come to realise the benefits from having devolved government, so I warmly welcome the Secretary of State’s setting up the Silk commission. This is a genuine commission. The Secretary of State has made it clear that she has no “pre-conclusions” about what the Silk commission should do or where it should go. Just as the Calman commission did an excellent job for Scotland, resulting in the Scotland Bill, I am sure that the Silk commission will do the same for Wales.
It is important for the commission to look seriously, as I am sure it will, at the issue of accountability as its first duty. Democratic accountability obviously comes through accountability for spending money and therefore for raising money. At present, the settlement in Wales gives the power to spend without the responsibility to raise taxpayers’ money. I argue that accountability is possible only if there is a link between the casting of the vote, the paying of the taxes and the outcome of the election.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I am sorry, but I will not give way because I need to leave enough time for another person to speak.
I will try to fit in another couple of key points in one minute. We are looking at the reverse of the Boston tea party—the “No representation without taxation” principle. Perhaps that could be called the Bangor tea party, or the Barry tea party. It has been asked what proportion of the fiscal arrangements is needed for financial accountability. Is it a tiny element and just tinkering around the edges, or is it more substantial? I ask the Secretary of State to expand on the timetable. She said something about it in her opening remarks, but it seems to be in the medium grass, if not the long grass. Perhaps she can say something a little more concrete about when the commission will report and when we might see something in Parliament.
A critical factor that has been mentioned several times is the Holtham commission. It has been praised repeatedly by Conservative Members. In that case I say to them, and to the Secretary of State, let us get on with implementing it, regardless of waiting for the Silk commission. We would do a great service to the people of Wales by implementing it right now. The point has been made that Wales is not over-subsidised compared with other parts of the UK. That has long been a myth, but we are not, we are not, we are not. All we are calling for is fair treatment. Implementing the Holtham report would help us to copper-bottom that.
To add an element of caution, what we do not of course want at the end of this commission is what we might refer to as “Silk cuts”. We want an enhancement for Wales, not a diminution of our financial power or democratic clout.
Finally, the Assembly is only just over 10 years old. It is still, by the standards of democratic institutions, something of a stripling. Let us take these decisions wisely, cautiously and with careful consideration. Just as devolution had many fathers, some of whom were in this House, we need to be engaged as this process goes forward.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Before I call the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), I suggest that he can speak until 28 minutes to 6, because of everything that has gone on.