IPP Sentences

John McDonnell Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) for securing this debate. I think I have attended every one of these debates over a number of years. I declare an interest: I am an honorary life member of the Prison Officers’ Association and a member of the justice unions parliamentary group, which contains the probation officers, the prison officers, PCS, representing the civil service, and others dealing with this issue.

Here is the tragedy: after every debate, expectations are raised that perhaps there will be some Government movement, but there has not been, so we have lost more lives and many more people have self-harmed. The briefing from the wonderful UNGRIPP shows that in 2023 there were 1,866 self-harm incidents among IPP prisoners. As my hon. Friend said, there have been 90 suicides. People see no hope in their future; they are the most insecure prisoners. Many prisoners I have dealt with know their sentence and know what they have to do to get out, and they do their best. There are others who think they will never get out, but at least they know the situation. With IPP prisoners, there is an uncertainty, which contributes to that lack of hope. Professional prison officers from the Prison Officers’ Association tell us clearly that it is almost impossible to help or manage these prisoners because they have no hope. They lose confidence in whatever rehabilitation scheme they have been placed on, because every time they go on them, they are still not released. As a result, they are simply returned to despair.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Southgate and Wood Green said, His Majesty’s inspectorate of probation made clear recommendations about its concerns for these prisoners, and the Justice Committee set out a whole series of recommendations that I believe overcome the doubts that have been put forward by successive Government Ministers and which I hope we do not hear today. Ministers’ fear that if we release any of these prisoners and something goes wrong, the Government will get the blame.

The Justice Committee considered the issue from a political perspective, asking, “How can we manage this?” The idea was to go through that process, to ensure that there is support and preparation for rehabilitation and release; and that there is professional expertise, brought together on a panel, to examine case-by-case what needs to be put in place to secure the release of these prisoners so that they are safe and society is safe. Give Bob Neill his due—he worked really hard on a cross-party basis to achieve consensus among the Committee on a contentious issue; and the justice unions group and the POA completely endorsed and advocated its recommendations.

By refusing to act on those Justice Committee recommendations, which are so reasonable, the state is committing a crime and perpetrating an injustice against these individuals. It isn’t just me who thinks that; David Blunkett, who brought these measures in, said—if I remember rightly—that the situation was a stain upon our justice system and that there needed to be action. I commended the last Government when they reformed the licensing arrangements, and that move has benefited some people, but it has been of no benefit whatsoever to the 2,734 that are still locked away.

What we expect from this Government—our Government, I have to say to the Minister—is a programme of work that takes the Justice Committee’s recommendations and looks at the practical action that needs to be taken to achieve them. Part of that could be the Imprisonment for Public Protection (Re-sentencing) Bill, which Tony Woodley has brought forward and for which I think there would be overwhelming support in this House. As a result, we might give some justice to those people who have suffered such significant injustice. We have had many cases before us where someone has committed a relatively minor crime and been sentenced to a year in prison, but 10 years later they are still inside. Many of these people are serving between 10 and 18 years, having been sentenced only up to four years for a crime they committed.

We have a responsibility on our shoulders to honour the recommendations from the Justice Committee—recommendations that that its members worked so hard on—and to implement them. There is a sense of urgency about this. I do not want to be here in six or 12 months’ time saying that we have lost more prisoners as a result of self-harm and suicide. What has happened to the families? The irony in all this is that, as prisoners tell us, it is not just the individual who is serving the sentence; it is their family as well. It is their children, their mothers, their fathers: their whole family is destroyed as a result. So for God’s sake—for humanity’s sake—let us address this matter now and let us do it as a matter of urgency.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Nicholas Dakin]

Each case is different, so I come back to the importance of individual plans for individual prisoners, and the fact that they need to know, from conversations with the prison authorities, exactly where they are and what intervention is there, and they can see themselves progressing positively towards a positive outcome. It is impossible to give a timeframe on each individual case, but I would hope that each individual would have a feel of what the timeframe might look like for them.

Every prison now has a dedicated full-time neurodiversity support manager, and each has attended a bespoke awareness session on the IPP sentence and its impact on those serving it. Those managers are working with frontline staff to help them improve their support and communication with neurodiverse IPP prisoners, fostering good relationships and effective support for improved prospects of progression. We will continue to focus on delivering good education training and work opportunities in prison to build skills, alongside support for IPP prisoners to access employment and accommodation on release.

The IPP action plan is reviewed annually, and the Government will continue to scrutinise thoroughly progress made. To increase accountability, next summer the Lord Chancellor will be laying before Parliament the IPP annual report, which will detail the activity that has been undertaken to support those serving the IPP sentence, and hopefully address the points that have been made about where individuals lie in relation to confidence and assistance. If the anticipated progress is not being made, we will then consider what more we must do to drive the progress that we are determined to see. We will not accept no progress; we expect and demand progress, and that is what we will be looking for.

I appreciate that those still serving the sentence in prison will consider that they have not really benefited from the previous IPP action plans—there is some scepticism. This Labour Government will not allow that to be the case in future. We will robustly drive meaningful actions to deliver actual changes to how well IPP prisoners are protected and supported. That includes supporting those who have never been released, and those who have been recalled to custody. Recall remains a vital function in managing the risk of released IPP prisoners. The thematic review from His Majesty’s inspectorate of probation highlights the fact that decisions to recall IPP offenders have been proportionate and necessary, and that must continue to maintain public protection.

The Government’s overriding priority remains the protection of the public—I was pleased that the Opposition spokesperson, the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston, reiterated that in his comments—but, as my hon. Friend the Member for York Central pointed out, that needs to be robust and consistent. It is vital for public confidence and protection that those serving the IPP sentence in prison are released only following a thorough risk assessment that finds that their risk has reduced to the point where they may be safely managed in the community. That is a judgment for the independent Parole Board, which has also recognised that a greater focus on the IPP cohort is necessary. The board has set up a dedicated IPP taskforce so that IPP cases are handled and reviewed by Parole Board members with the appropriate knowledge, experience and expertise of the IPP sentence.

Legislating to give every IPP prisoner a definite release date and post-release licence would result in most of them being released automatically—we are coming on to the issue of resentencing, which I know is an issue of huge contention and concern—but, in many cases, the Parole Board has repeatedly determined that those individuals are too dangerous to be released, not having met the statutory release test. In those circumstances, sadly, public protection has to take priority.

The alternative would be resentencing via the court, which would likely result in most offenders still in custody being released without any licensed supervision, despite the Parole Board having assessed in the past two years that those individuals should remain in custody for the protection of the public, having not met the statutory release test. Either approach, sadly, would pose an unacceptable level of risk to members of the public, and, in particular, to victims. I am especially concerned that resentencing could result in dangerous IPP prisoners being released, without a licence period, into the community.

[John McDonnell]

I do not want to disagree with my hon. Friend, but that is a distorted reading of the Justice Committee report. It actually saw resentencing as enabling a refocusing on these particular prisoners, and an expert panel was to be involved to ensure that there was not a mass release in that way; there would be a staggered release, with all the expertise and support available. I think that the Minister has misread the Justice Committee report and should revisit it.

[Sir Nicholas Dakin]

I will very happily revisit the report as my right hon. Friend advises, but the reality is that we need to crack on with this. We need to get things to a better place as quickly as possible, and that means having the right support available to support each individual, to move them on their way. There may be a way of resentencing happening, but it is complicated and it has significant risk, which is why we are not going there. People released in those circumstances would not be subject to any licence conditions, including those that protect victims, for example by prohibiting contact with victims and enforcing exclusion zones. I do not accept that that is an acceptable position for victims.

On IPP offenders in the community, a resentencing exercise would also halt the risk management and support for these individuals, some of whom will be at the critical moment of having been recently released from custody. The Victims and Prisoners Act 2024 makes significant changes to the IPP licence period and allows for the termination of the IPP sentence in a safe, sustainable way, ensuring that the public and victims are best safeguarded. It is about balance, and I recognise that there are very strong arguments— and good arguments—for the balance to be elsewhere, but this is where the Government want to place the balance at the moment.

[Sir Nicholas Dakin]

Each IPP prisoner should know what they need to do in order to make progress through the system or towards the community, and each IPP prisoner should also know what the system should be doing to support them. That is the question, really, and I look towards friends and family because they are a massive resource in this respect. If individual IPP prisoners do not know what they should be doing in order to move on the journey towards release, or they do not know what the system should be doing to support them on the journey towards release, which includes support on mental health and other support of that kind, then there is an issue that we need to focus on and deal with. That is my answer to that point.

I will come on to the questions asked by the Opposition spokesperson, the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston, about what progress is being made on the action plan. I hope I have managed to cover off in my response the fact that the action plan is central and progressing in the way that we would wish. I have just mentioned mental health support. In relation to the licence breach, where the licence is still in force and victims become aware that an offender has breached a licence condition—for example, if they have entered an exclusion zone—they may report it to the police or their victim liaison officer. Where the licence is terminated, all licence conditions end, including exclusion zones.

[John McDonnell]

This debate has been helpful in expressing the concerns that people have. I am worried that we have been in this situation many times before, relying on an action plan that is never implemented effectively. I hope the Minister is saying that this one will be, but I must say that I have some scepticism, given the resources within the prison network and system at the moment. It is worth revisiting the discussion about the Justice Committee recommendations. Will he meet with a number of us from both Houses to talk through those and see whether, as we monitor this action plan, we can actually prepare a fall-back if it does not work?

[Sir Nicholas Dakin]

I am happy to meet my right hon. Friend and colleagues across both Houses with Lord Timpson to discuss progress on this in broad terms, because we can work together. We all want improvements, and we want this long-standing injustice to be put right for the future, and if we work together we are more likely to achieve that. I thank everybody who has spoken in this most timely and helpful debate, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Southgate and Wood Green, who secured it.

Sentencing Review and Prison Capacity

John McDonnell Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

The hon. Member raises an important point. That issue is not within the review’s terms of reference. It will not consider disparities in sentencing because it is looking at the overall sentencing framework, and how we ensure that we never run out of prison places again. There is an important debate on disparities in the criminal justice system. The review on sentencing is not the proper place for that, but we will take forward that other work in due course.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)]

I declare an interest: I am the honorary life president of the Prison Officers Association. I thank the Secretary of State on behalf of the POA for her open-door policy on engagement with the union. I congratulate her on bringing forward the sentencing review. The POA has long argued that there are too many people in prison, in particular with mental health problems. They include veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder who should not be there, but should be treated elsewhere. Will she ensure that the unions are fully involved in deciding on the composition of the panel and the engagement process for the review?

[Shabana Mahmood]

Working closely with our trade unions is important to us. We have already engaged with the Prison Officers Association. Let me place on record my thanks to all who work in our prisons and our probation system. In our prisons in particular, the rates of violence against prison officers have been too high for too long. I salute the hard work that prison officers do in a difficult job on behalf of us all. My right hon. Friend can be assured of our close engagement with everybody who works in His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service going forward.

Prison Capacity

John McDonnell Excerpts

Thursday 18th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his place. On the 18-month period, we have inherited a criminal justice system in complete crisis and at risk of total breakdown and collapse. It will take some time, by necessity, for us to be able to put that right. I do not want to mislead the public that somehow these changes will have a quick effect. The system is in dire straits and it will take time to repair it. It is right that we are up front and honest about that time, and I will update the House regularly.

As I say, this Government’s approach will be very different from that of the last Government. We will have a regular release of data, and I anticipate that I will regularly appear before Members to talk about that data, but I welcome that opportunity because it is important that the public are kept updated, and that their representatives in this place are able to scrutinise what is happening and hold us to account. We will need time for the measures to take effect to enable us to move the system to a position of greater health.

In terms of who goes to prison, why and for how long, when we have overcrowded prisons, there is no capacity to do much other than hold people in their cells. The activity that we know is important to help people in the prison system to turn their lives around, come out as better citizens and make better choices, having made amends to society, cannot happen in deeply overcrowded prisons. That is why dealing with the capacity crisis is so necessary not just to prevent the collapse of the criminal justice system but to cut reoffending in the long term. Creating some space will allow us to introduce proposals to bring down reoffending rates in the country.

On probation, I pay tribute to all probation staff for their tremendous work. My first visit in my new role was to meet probation staff in Bedfordshire. I recognise that they have been working in a system and a service under extreme strain and facing real difficulty. That is why we will onboard 1,000 new trainee probation officers before March 2025 to add extra capacity, and why returning the probation system to health will be a key priority for this Government.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I declare a non-pecuniary interest: I am an honorary life member of the Prison Officers’ Association.

In seeking to be fair, as she always is, my right hon. Friend is being too kind on the last Government. They brought about a staffing crisis in our prisons that has brought rehabilitation to an end and levels of violence that we have never seen before. Will she bring forward as soon as possible a workforce strategy for our prisons and probation? As a matter of urgency, will she look in particular at Feltham young offenders institution, which has become a violent emergency for staff and for prisoners themselves?

[Shabana Mahmood]

My right hon. Friend is right. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to all the staff in our prisons, who do an excellent job under very difficult circumstances. He is right to acknowledge that the levels of violence in our prisons have been increasing, placing those staff at ever greater risk. This is similar to the question that I just answered on probation. When prisons are so badly overcrowded, it is incredibly difficult to run any kind of regime that can do good work on rehabilitation, or provide a safe atmosphere for the staff who work in them.

I will, of course, have conversations in the usual way when it comes to discussions about the spending review and other measures that the Chancellor will bring forward. I hope that I need not tell my right hon. Friend that I will bat hard for our Department and the people I represent. That will all happen in the usual way. We are committed to publishing our 10-year capacity strategy as quickly as possible so that we can begin the process of returning our system to some sort of health. I thank him for raising Feltham; I will look at that and write to him.