20 Years of Devolution

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Thursday 11th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

May I first associate myself with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) about cystic fibrosis?

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), and I join him in saying that this is a celebration. Unlike my good friend the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), I was in favour of establishing the Welsh Assembly. While it has not been perfect, I would place the blame for its failures primarily on the Welsh Government, not on the institution per se. However, some of the failures highlighted by my hon. Friend are issues that we should be worried about. In education, for example, we genuinely need to look carefully at ourselves in Wales and ask whether we are delivering the educational standards to which we actually aspire.

However, I took one exception with my hon. Friend’s comments about the health service. It is fair to have a political debate about the health service in Wales, and it is fair to say that people can be genuinely disappointed with the health service in Wales. However, we must be honest enough as politicians to recognise that some of the challenges facing the health service in Wales are unique. The age profile of my constituency and many others in north Wales brings particular problems, and I speak as somebody who is represented from a health perspective by a health board that is both the largest in Wales and probably the most problematic in Wales. Although many of those problems are blamed, rightly, on decisions made by the Welsh Government, it would be naive and wrong to blame all those problems on the Welsh Government. Some of the problems we face in north Wales are unique.

[David T. C. Davies]

In fairness, the Assembly Government are doing some good things in that regard. For example, they are using the Rutherford group to offer cancer care in parts of south Wales, which is an excellent example of using the private sector within the NHS. Of course, that is completely different from nationalising the NHS. The Conservatives are often accused by Labour in England of nationalising the NHS, when Labour is doing exactly that, and quite rightly so, in Wales.

[Guto Bebb]

I agree with my hon. Friend.

Turning to how the Welsh Assembly has worked over the past 20 years, I will first touch upon some of the successes. More and more powers have been offered to the Assembly and the Welsh Government. That has happened in a piecemeal fashion, and it has been frustrating in many ways, because it has taken time, but I am proud of the fact that this Government and previous Governments since 2010 have actually delivered more powers to the Welsh Government, and rightly so.

I was pleased to be one of the Ministers who took the Wales Act 2017 through this place, and I am particularly proud of the fact that the way we worked in tandem with the Welsh Government resulted in that legislation being the first piece of constitutional law to pass through both Houses without amendment. That was testament to the fact that we worked in a co-operative fashion, which is important. Co-operation between the two Governments needs to develop quite significantly, and there is no doubt that the challenges of Brexit mean that that is becoming more and more important. We want services to be delivered to the people of Wales effectively, and the way to do that is to acknowledge that both Governments actually have an impact.

When I was at the Wales Office, I kept on making the point that Wales has two Governments and that we should take advantage of that, not see it as a problem. I will provide an example from when I was the Minister for Defence Procurement, because I saw how contracts awarded to Welsh companies by the Ministry of Defence led to those companies being supported by the Welsh Government through their economic development remit. We saw seamless working between the Government in Westminster and the Government in Cardiff Bay for the benefit of communities in Wales, which is exactly how we should aspire to work. We should aspire to acknowledge where the devolution boundary lies, and obviously we can have political arguments on where we need to change that devolution boundary, but we should see the potential of working together and how having two Governments serving the people of Wales is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

I welcome the work of the Welsh Affairs Committee on the growth deals and city deals, and so on. This is a fantastic opportunity to make a difference for the Welsh economy, and that difference is being made by the two Governments working together. The funding coming into those growth deals is coming from Westminster and from Cardiff Bay. More importantly, it is proper devolution, because the ideas and the initiatives are coming from the regions.

If there is one thing I would like to say, and I concur with the hon. Member for Edinburgh South on this, it is that the first 10 years of the Welsh Assembly probably saw powers being sucked into Cardiff Bay to make up for the original settlement in Wales being very weak. Every new institution has this need to feel it can make a difference, and in Wales we often saw powers being taken into the Assembly from local government, and I still believe that far too many decisions are demanded of the Government in Cardiff by local authorities, such as my own local authority in Conwy, rather than their being allowed to be made by the people on the ground.

Yes, we need co-operation between the two Governments, but I strongly argue that we need a more mature attitude in the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Government, which should trust their partners in local government. That is entirely the right thing to do. The growth deals are seeing the three partners—Westminster, the Welsh Government and local authorities—working constructively together, and we should try to build on that.

On the powers of the Wales Office and how it works for Wales within Westminster, I remember listening to a speech by Lord Elystan-Morgan back in 2013. He highlighted that the creation of the Wales Office in the 1960s was, in fact, the first step towards devolution.

The powers of the Wales Office have changed quite dramatically, and it was advantageous for me to be a Wales Office Minister and a Government Whip, because the Wales Office, in effect, has a cross-Government remit. That cross-Government remit is challenging, because Wales Office Ministers often find themselves being the nuisance who turns up in another Department to say to a spending Minister, “Do not forget that this issue has an impact on Wales as well.”

The Dunlop report is extremely important because, if we are to govern well for Wales from Westminster and from Cardiff, it is imperative that we understand the role of the Wales Office. We genuinely need to ensure that the understanding of Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish issues in Westminster is enhanced, and the way to do that is either by accepting the need to strengthen the Wales Office and the Scotland Office or by acknowledging that we need to change how we do things. I look forward to that report, which is important for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) and other right hon. and hon. Members.

This is the 20th anniversary of devolution, but it is a bit more than that really, because I refuse to believe that devolution started 20 years ago. There is a real history to it, and one thing I praise Plaid Cymru colleagues for is how they have often acknowledged the work of their predecessors Gwynfor Evans, Lord Dafydd Wigley and Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas, who kindly supported my 2017 election campaign in Clwyd South. Lord Elis-Thomas is now serving in the Welsh Government, and he is a good man.

The Labour party does not always do that quite enough. I read the book by my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) about his predecessor, “Morgan Jones: Man of Conscience,” and I was struck that, in his 1922 general election address, Morgan Jones supported self-government—not separatism, but self-government—to address Welsh needs in an appropriate and distinctive way. In June 1938, he was part of a cross-party delegation that met Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain to put the case for a Secretary of State for Wales. Neville Chamberlain did not accept the proposal, but perhaps his judgment was not too good anyway.

Of course, it was not until the reforming Harold Wilson Government of the 1960s that there was a Secretary of State for Wales and a Wales Office. Jim Griffiths was the first Secretary of State. It came from that Keir Hardie tradition of Home Rule all round.

I want to be partisan, not as a Labour Member of Parliament but as a north Walian, in paying tribute today to those great devolutionists: Cledwyn Hughes of Ynys Môn; Goronwy Roberts of Caernarvon; Eirene White of Flintshire; Robert Richards, James Idwal Jones and Tom Ellis, representatives of Wrexham, although the latter two came from Rhosllanerchrugog; Thomas William Jones and William Edwards, representatives of Merioneth, with T.W. also coming from Rhosllanerchrugog. All Labour and all north Walians.

I also pay tribute to Wales’s first female MP—Liberal, and later Labour—Megan Lloyd George, who once recorded a party political broadcast for the Liberal party that ended

“hunan lywodraeth i Gymru. Nos da.”

Or, “self-government to Wales. Good night.” I shared that story when I did occasional Welsh-language voiceovers for Welsh Labour, and people were very interested in my observations.

There are three things we need to consider. Six minutes is not very long, and two minutes and fifty seconds is even shorter. First, devolution offers a real chance for distinctive policies—not distinctive for their own sake but distinctive because they can be innovative and they can work. We have seen it with the minimum pricing of plastic bags, which was an innovative policy introduced in 2011, and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We have to look to the future, considering all the factors.

The Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013 introduced the principle of presumed consent, and it saved lives in doing so. There was the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 and now, with our excellent First Minister, there are proposals for social partnerships. Those policies are distinctive, and they are good.

Secondly, let us not fall into the trap of seeing devolution through the prism of the home nations. It is fine for the rugby, but we miss out when we just look at England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Our late, great colleague Paul Flynn was a passionate devolutionist, and he once told me he felt there was no problem in Wales that could not be solved by an east coast. I think he was joking but, whether he was or not, we do not have one.

Some 50% of Wales’s population live within 30 miles of the border, so devolution has to interconnect between the nations and regions of our country. We see connections between north-east Wales and north-west England in the economy, health and so much more. We also have to see the debate in terms of London, and we have seen greater moves towards devolution. It may not help us, but we have to look to London and the home counties, which want to keep more of their tax take.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is making some important points. Does she agree that, on social care, Wales has much to learn from the Greater Manchester devolution debate? We can learn from them, rather than just thinking that we are ahead of the game.

[Susan Elan Jones]

It is an intelligent contribution to the debate that we consider good policies, wherever they come from, on both sides of the border, in Scotland and, indeed, elsewhere in the world. We must not become insular.

Thirdly, and this is especially true for those of us who fall in the social democratic or democratic socialist traditions, structural and constitutional devices are never an end in themselves. It is about empowerment, wellbeing, connectedness, education and culture. I pay great tribute to all those who are fighting the campaign to reach 1 million Welsh speakers—it is not a maximum, and we can go above it—in Wales, which is very important. It is also about the ability to reach out globally, across continental Europe, the UK, NATO, the Commonwealth and so much more. What was important about the initial devolution settlement was the sense that we had to work consensually. Sometimes the electoral system was devised for that and sometimes, to be honest, that consensual working could be a pain in the neck, but I do believe that without it we would not have had that breadth of support for devolution.

If I am quick, I will be able to end—stereotypically, being Welsh—with a quote from a poem: a not-very-good translation of a Welsh poem. It reads:

“Old Welsh customs need must change

As years progress from age to age.

The generations each arrange

Their own brief patterns on the page.”

That is not how Ceiriog said it, but that is the English translation. Most of us will not be here in this place in 20 years’ time, but what is important is that we work together, we get the best for our country and we do it through that devolved settlement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The dynamic of change is a critical aspect of how we have accountability, quality of policy and innovation of ideas. We have yet to see that—it can be interpreted in many ways—in Wales. I believe we can very much strengthen democracy in Wales in that respect.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Let us be honest: a change of Government in Wales would demand a coalition between parties other than Labour. Is the hon. Lady of the view that the right way forward should be a coalition, and that that coalition should not exclude the Conservative party?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

From Westminster to every Parliament of the United Kingdom, the adversarial way in which we operate is not serving any of the nations of the United Kingdom effectively. I urge us all to find new ways of working, rather than this duality of adversarialness, which frankly does nothing but score points.

The reforms that Plaid Cymru put to the Senedd yesterday are evidently—it was interesting to hear agreement from Conservative Members—in the interests of our country and of Wales, yet Labour refused to support our motion. Instead, Labour put in place obstacles to avoid achieving immediate reform. Many of us present feel that the need is urgent for Wales. Wales deserves a world-class Parliament and a Senedd that makes decisions in the best interests of the country, not in the best interests of the Labour party.

With the impending threat of a no-deal Brexit and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) as Prime Minister, change is more vital than ever. Brexit has shone a pitiless light on the inadequacies of the UK constitution. The European Union (Withdrawal) Act will, with the aiding and abetting of the Labour Welsh Government, weaken the devolution settlements that the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have enjoyed for the past two decades. Not only did the Labour Welsh Government capitulate on the withdrawal Bill; they withdrew the only means of protection that the Senedd had against the Tory Government: they repealed the Welsh continuity Act.

First Minister Mark Drakeford’s whole argument for repealing the Act was premised on his belief that the Scottish Government would lose the Supreme Court case over their equivalent legislation. He said that if Scotland lost it would have nothing, while Wales would still have its paltry agreement with the UK Tory Government. It is sad to recount that his wager backfired in spectacular fashion. Scotland won the case, meaning its powers are legally protected. It is Wales that is left with nothing, defenceless. We have nothing left but a bad deal that gives away Welsh powers to Tory Ministers, with no guarantee that we will ever get them back.

My party’s position for Wales’s future is clear: we want the people of Wales to run our own affairs. In all honesty, who aspires to come into politics and into government but would not aspire to that? In truth, who would not aspire to that? Sometimes, when we spell this out, we are told that to call for independence is somehow irrational and unreasonable—something to which we should not aspire—but in all honesty, who among us would ever have come into politics unless the people we represent had the chance to represent themselves? Why would we ever tell people that they do not have the means, the means to aspire or the potential—that they do not have it in them to manage their own affairs? That is what motivates many of us here on the Opposition Benches.

I acknowledge that, in the interim, we need a collaborative procedure for the creation of UK-wide frameworks, given that the Government are so determined to press ahead and remove us from the already functioning EU frameworks in which we know where we stand. Such UK-wide frameworks would have a significant impact on the existing evolved devolution settlements and therefore must be created jointly by all the sitting Governments, not dictated from this place by Ministers of the Crown. This is only the first step to ensuring that devolution is not just respected, but upheld in the upheaval that the Government are creating and forcing on us by leaving the European Union.

In future, there must be no first among alleged equals, but equality of respect, means and potential. Welsh democracy is facing its biggest existential threat of its 20-year anniversary. We face a stark choice of two futures: will Wales be a peripheral geographic unit, crumbling under the pressure of an increasingly London-centric Unionist Government, or will we be an independent European nation, with a fit-for-purpose and dynamic Parliament? I know which future I would choose for the people of Wales and the people I represent.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)]

I also rise to support amendments (a), (d) and (f), and it is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy). She spent much of her speech talking about the atmosphere within which this debate is happening, and I, too, would like to spend a few moments on that.

Like others, I have been bombarded in recent weeks with emails and other communications telling me to vote in diametrically opposed directions. Many insist that if I vote differently from the way they wish, I will be acting against the will of the people. I have not had the same level of aggression from all quarters, but some of it has been pretty extreme. I have been compared to a range of bodily parts of both the female and the male variety. Some have called me a traitor. A few have gone further. One email I read yesterday expressed the hope that this place would be burned to the ground with me and other hon. Members in it. I know that several hon. Members have received worse and in far greater quantities. There is no excuse for such threats and abuse. Neither I nor other hon. Members will be intimidated, but we have to face up to what is happening.

This kind of toxic atmosphere in politics is not unique to the UK—it is happening in other countries—but Brexit gives it a focus, and it can lead to violence against people regarded as believing the wrong things or simply because of who they are. My plea is that all of us who have the privilege to speak from public platforms, which can create headlines, think carefully about how we conduct ourselves and the way we frame political debates and take care not to contribute to that atmosphere of toxicity and intolerance, which undermines democracy and can lead to violence.

There is a deeper problem here. All too often people feel the political debate in this place happens at a level that does not speak to them and bypasses their concerns. They look aghast at how we have got stuck in a logjam over Brexit. Yes, the Prime Minister has made that worse, not better—her attempt last Wednesday to shift the blame on to everyone other than herself was unworthy of her office—but we need to look at ourselves too and understand that too often we appear to embody the stereotype of an institution that talks only to itself, not to the outside world. We need to learn from that, not only in relation to Brexit, but more generally.

What does that mean for the decisions we face tonight? The bottom line is that no deal cannot be allowed to happen by accident any more than by design. As chair of the all-party motor group, I know that all the warnings—from BMW, JLR, Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, and Aston Martin—could not have been clearer. Investment decisions are on hold now and our reputation in the international community is being trashed before our eyes. A no-deal Brexit would jeopardise the future of the plants of several of those car manufacturers and many thousands of jobs, and similar warnings are coming from other sectors, as others have said.

The priority has to be avoiding the nightmare of no deal, and that means agreeing a procedure that allows us not so much to vote for or against our perfect or worst options, but to do as the right hon. Member for West Dorset has urged and express preferences for ways forward we can live with. The idea of doing that through paper ballots is exactly right because it would allow people to express preferences and vote for several different options. This cannot be a zero-sum game. The objective has to be to find a centre of gravity through which we can move forward.

The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) and my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) are right that, as we move through that process, which may take some time, some kind of preference balloting is likely to be necessary. I suspect that, if we find that centre of gravity, it will involve jettisoning some of the Prime Minister’s red lines, so there is a question for her there, and a decision for her to make. If the centre of gravity in this House becomes a place that is beyond and different from her red lines, she must answer that question. Will she abide by the will of the House, and will she take that forward in negotiations with the European Union? Unless she is prepared to do so, the sustainable majority to which the right hon. Member for West Dorset referred will not be allowed to have its voice, and if it is not allowed to have its voice, democracy will be the poorer, the House will be the poorer, and the debate about Brexit will be set back.

In the few moments that I have left, I want to say a few words about the idea of a second referendum. It seems to me that when a million people take to the streets, that is not something we should ignore. In my view, arguing for a final say on any deal eventually arrived at, or against the possibility that the House is unable to achieve a way forward, has a logic to it, but let us not kid ourselves that the passions aroused in favour of a second referendum—or a people’s vote—are not also aroused in other directions. The risk that a referendum will be conducted in a divisive atmosphere is a real risk, and we must recognise and address it. To me, that does not mean moving away from, or rejecting, the idea of a second referendum, but it does constitute a further indication and a further reminder to us that we must at least approach the coming weeks and months in a way that makes clear the kind of politics that we want to develop in this country. It must be clear that this process is about resolving differences, not about exacerbating them,

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Richard Burden]

I am afraid that I am very short of time.

Our approach must demonstrate our commitment to equal respect for all our citizens, irrespective of their background, and our determination to ensure that whatever else happens, democracy wins through.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

The UK, including Wales, remains the same outward-looking, globally minded country we have always been. International businesses, such as Aston Martin, choose to invest in Wales as a result of the great work done by the Department for International Trade and the Wales Office, working hand in glove with the Welsh Government. That shows that Wales continues to be a great investment destination.

[Hywel Williams]

Welsh food and drink exports to the European Union will face eye-watering tariffs on leaving the single market. Will the Minister simply guarantee that, as part of a World Trade Organisation deal, the home market will not be flooded with cheap food imports such as Australian sheepmeat?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is again guilty of peddling scare stories. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to lamb, for example, New Zealand currently does not even meet its quota to the European Union—only 70% of the New Zealand quota is currently maintained. He should have some confidence in Welsh agricultural produce, rather than talking down the prospects of the economy.

[Hywel Williams]

I would have a great deal more confidence if the Minister answered the question. On Monday I visited one of the largest and most successful high-tech businesses in Wales, which told me that, post-Brexit, it is hoping against hope to be able to export to its European partners, as at present, without all the red tape and expense of being outside the customs union. Why are this hard-Brexit Government so determined to make life more difficult for our key exporters?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman again highlights the negativity that surrounds the issue, but it is a negativity that I do not recognise, that is not recognised by businesses in Wales and that is certainly not highlighted by the investment decisions made by businesses in Wales. Businesses in Wales are investing and are looking to a global future. We will secure the greatest possible access to European markets, although we are also looking to global trade deals that will ensure Wales is part of global growth as well as maintaining European markets.

[Wendy Morton]

Wales has huge potential in terms of exporting and trading opportunities, and the Department for International Trade is an important tool for companies in Wales that are looking to expand overseas. How are the Minister and his Department ensuring that Wales is central to the work of the Department for International Trade?

[Guto Bebb]

The Department for International Trade is a crucial component of the way in which we support Welsh businesses, and the Wales Office is working closely with that Department. We had an export conference in Cardiff on 6 March, which was extremely well attended, and the opportunities available to Welsh businesses, both within the European Union and globally, were highlighted. That meeting was a huge success.

[Mrs Sheryll Murray]

My hon. Friend will agree that there is much common ground between Cornwall and Wales with the opportunities that Brexit presents for the export of high-quality goods and services across the globe. What advice can he share with businesses across my constituency as we begin the negotiations to leave the European Union?

[Guto Bebb]

I thank my hon. Friend for the question. She correctly says that Wales and Cornwall have a lot in common, not least in terms of language. Businesses in Cornwall should do the same as those in Wales: engage with the Department for International Trade; look at the opportunities to go on trade missions; and identify new markets. Opportunities are there for businesses from Cornwall and Wales, and we need to exploit those.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

What guarantees can the Minister give companies such as Airbus, which rely on British employees moving and working across Europe, when we leave Europe?

[Guto Bebb]

The guarantee we can offer to any company that wants to work across Europe is that this Government will listen to them and act on their behalf. We have absolutely no interest in doing anything other than fully supporting companies such as Airbus, which is such a key component of the economy of north-east Wales.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

To enhance trade across the whole of Wales we need to have proper infrastructure in our ports. Will the Minister congratulate the Welsh Government on putting in additional funds? Will he work with them to ensure that places such as Ynys Môn remain at the heart of the British Isles, because of both their close proximity to Ireland and their trade with the rest of Europe?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in what he says, and I am pleased that the Secretary of State visited the port of Holyhead with him. He is also right to highlight the fact that Wales is in a fortunate position: we have two Governments that can work for the benefit of our economy. Co-operation between the UK Government and the Welsh Government for the development of ports such as Holyhead is crucial to the way forward after Brexit.

[George Kerevan (East Lothian) (SNP)]

3. What assessment he has made of the potential effect of provisions of the great repeal Bill on Wales’s devolved competences.

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[Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

8. What steps his Department has taken to ensure that the Government’s industrial strategy benefits Wales and other parts of the UK equally.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

We are delivering a bold, long-term industrial strategy that is truly UK wide and builds on our strengths and prepares us for the years ahead. It is important that the economy works for everyone, delivers good, skilled, well-paid jobs, and creates the conditions for competitive, world-leading businesses to prosper and grow across the UK. That, we are doing.

[Craig Williams]

The industrial strategy and the Cardiff city deal demonstrate the strong and stable Government the people of south Wales need. Alongside the compound semiconductor catapult in Cardiff, the industrial strategy and city deal are delivering sustainable high-tech jobs. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Guto Bebb]

I could do nothing other than agree with my hon. Friend, who is a fantastic champion for Wales’s capital city. The city deal is an example of the Westminster Government working with the Welsh Government for the benefit of Wales, and the semiconductor centre is an example of a world-class resource in which Wales leads the globe. We can contribute so much more with the support of the UK Government, working with the Welsh Government.

[Mr Vara]

Will the Minister outline what response he has had from businesses and organisations across Wales since the launch of the industrial strategy consultation, and how is he ensuring that Welsh interests are front and centre of the strategy as it goes forward?

[Guto Bebb]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The response from stakeholders across Wales has been truly superb. The engagement that the Wales Office has had with businesses and industry across Wales has been second to none. The response to the industrial strategy is very clear: businesses and industry want us to support research and innovation, and to invest in digital infrastructure. Those are exactly the types of priorities that we have in our industrial strategy.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) is right to be concerned about possible unequal treatment under his Government’s industrial strategy for Wales because there has been silence about Bridgend and Ford compared with what has been said about Nissan and the north-east. Will the Minister guarantee from the Dispatch Box that Ford in south Wales will get exactly the same treatment as Nissan in the north-east?

[Guto Bebb]

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that Ministers and officials have been in regular discussions with Ford at Bridgend. Indeed, those discussions are ongoing and constructive, and they involve the Welsh Government as well. Our aim and intention is to ensure that Bridgend remains a car producing area.

[Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Welsh Labour Government have proved that lasting economic success comes only through continued investment in Welsh industry and infrastructure. Is there any chance of progress on the electrification of the Great Western Railway to Swansea, the north Wales growth plan and the HS2 hub in Crewe before purdah kicks in?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is right that investment in infrastructure is absolutely crucial for the future of the Welsh economy. That is why the Welsh Government should get on with work on the M4 in south Wales and improve the A55 in north Wales. In relation to rail infrastructure, electric trains will be on their way to Swansea before the end of the year. More importantly, the commitments that we have in Crewe will be absolutely crucial to the development of north Wales. We had a meeting yesterday with the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) and my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) to ensure that north Wales benefits from these investments.

[Mr Speaker]

We are immensely grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I call Mr Stephen Crabb.

[Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

14. Although, over the past seven years, we have given new powers and new money to the Welsh Labour Government precisely so that they can get on and improve transport in Wales, we have seen near zero progress on big projects such as improving the M4 around Newport. Who does my hon. Friend think is responsible for holding back Wales, and what should voters do about it on 8 June?

[Guto Bebb]

My right hon. Friend makes a very important point. The fiscal framework that has been agreed between the UK and Welsh Governments has been described as a game-changer by Gerry Holtham. It means that, unlike during the 13 years when Labour was in government in this place, Wales is no longer underfunded. The people of Wales should look at the M4 and the A55, and point the finger of blame at the Labour Government in Cardiff.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Under-Secretary of State says that there will be electric trains going out of Swansea, but there will not be an electrified line. When will he get on with electrifying the line from Cardiff to Swansea, ensuring additional infrastructure investment for the Valleys line, including my line at Ogmore?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that £500 million has been put towards the city deal in Cardiff, which will be crucial for the electrification of the South Wales Valleys line. We have also done work on the Severn tunnel. Let me say one thing to the hon. Gentleman: I will take no lessons from a party that electrified not a single mile of rail track in Wales in 13 years.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

9. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy on the date of publication for the Government response to the Hendry review on tidal lagoons.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave earlier to my hon. Friends the Members for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) and for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara).

[Andrew Stephenson]

Does the Minister agree that the UK-wide industrial strategy highlights the importance of linking north Wales with the northern powerhouse?

[Guto Bebb]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. We have a great relationship with my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), the Minister for the northern powerhouse. A north Wales growth deal is essential for north Wales because the northern powerhouse needs north Wales, and north Wales needs the northern powerhouse. We will ensure that that happens if we are re-elected.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Warm words build no roads and no railways. We have had enough of warm words from this Government. What we want is investment in north Wales. For the first time, show us the money.

[Guto Bebb]

I am disappointed by the comments of the hon. Gentleman, who was at the meeting with me yesterday with the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones). More importantly, he should highlight, for example, the huge investment in the new Berwyn prison in Wrexham, which is creating jobs and has been seen as an example of how to do public sector investment in Wales and the UK.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab/Co-op)]

1. What recent discussions he has had with (a) Cabinet colleagues and (b) external stakeholders on infrastructure developments in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

This Government recognise that delivering world-class infrastructure in our transport and digital sectors is vital to improving productivity and driving economic growth. I hold regular meetings with ministerial colleagues and local partners on issues relating to Wales. Earlier this month I convened a mobile summit which brought together key stakeholders from the mobile network operators and the UK and Welsh Governments to explore ways in which we can work in partnership to improve mobile reception for people and businesses throughout Wales.

[Chris Elmore]

I notice that the Minister failed to mention the Swansea bay tidal lagoon report. That six-month independent review conducted by ex-Energy Minister Charles Hendry could not have been more conclusive in saying that moving ahead with a pathfinder lagoon at Swansea bay

“as soon as is reasonably practicable”

is a “no regrets policy”. There may be much to digest in the review’s detailed road map for a new industry, but there are no grounds for further delaying the start of that industry. When will the Government give the green light to this crucial infrastructure project?

[Guto Bebb]

I am delighted to state that Charles Hendry is in Cardiff Bay today providing more information about his report to the Assembly, and he is being supported there by my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Byron Davies). The report was comprehensive and detailed on the issues relating to a tidal lagoon. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would agree, however, that any decision must also be good for the taxpayer and good for the electricity end user.

[Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)]

The Minister will be aware of the campaign by the Daily Post newspaper to improve mobile phone notspots. What is he doing to help to improve mobile phone services for voice and data in north Wales?

[Guto Bebb]

I pay tribute to the Daily Post’s campaign in north Wales, which has highlighted this issue. That is partly why I was very keen to convene a summit of mobile providers to look very carefully at ways in which we could give them practical support in helping to deal with notspots in Wales. One of the key issues is the planning regime in Wales, which can be much more flexible in ensuring that the money being invested in Wales goes much further and deals with the notspots in all parts of Wales, whether rural or city.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

11. EU structural funding has really helped to improve key road routes across Wales. Can the Minister confirm that once we have left the European Union, equivalent funding for projects like renewing the Heads of the Valleys road will continue?

[Guto Bebb]

EU funding has had a clear impact in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency in terms of the Heads of the Valleys road, and indeed investment in the railway infrastructure. The south Wales metro scheme will generate £106 million of support from European funds, although it should be remembered that it is also receiving £500 million of funding from the UK Government. This Government have delivered a fiscal framework to Wales that has been described as both fair and sustainable, and I can assure him that Wales will be protected when we come to the negotiations to leave the European Union.

[Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab)]

Happy St Dwynwen’s day, Mr Speaker.

Eighty-four per cent. of Conservative councillors, 83% of Conservative MPs, a former Conservative Energy Minister, both Wales Office Ministers and the Conservative party manifesto all support the Swansea bay tidal lagoon project. The Minister failed to answer the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore), so I will give him another opportunity: when will his Government kick-start the tidal lagoon project?

[Guto Bebb]

I restate that this decision will have to be made across Government: other Departments will have to look at the issue. I am sure the hon. Lady would agree that in an age where we are seeing industry in Wales worried about the cost of energy, any deal for the Swansea bay tidal lagoon must not only be good in terms of the tidal lagoon but right for the taxpayer and the energy user in Wales.

[Jo Stevens]

Last week in Westminster Hall, the Minister said that

“it is difficult to offer guarantees that”

European Investment Bank

“loans would be supported”.—[Official Report, 17 January 2017; Vol. 619, c. 264WH.]

By that, he meant supported by a guarantee from the Treasury when we leave the EU. What benefits has the European Investment Bank brought to Wales, and how much has it invested in Wales over the past 10 years?

[Guto Bebb]

I am sure that the hon. Lady will join me in highlighting the success of the Swansea campus development as an example of European Investment Bank investment in a Welsh context. I am sure that she will also join me in paying tribute to the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer for securing and guaranteeing EU funding up to the point of departure from the European Union. The key point that she must be aware of is that thus far, this Government have delivered a degree of protection for EU funding in Wales, and in due course further announcements will be made about further funding support in a Welsh context.

[Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

2. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of Wales’s international business links since the UK’s decision to leave the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)]

3. What discussions his Department has had with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy on ensuring that the Government’s industrial strategy benefits the whole of the UK.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

This Government have put in place an industrial strategy that will work for all people in every corner of the UK. Wales is home to world-leading sectors, be it compound semi-conductors in Cardiff, agri-tech in Aberystwyth or advanced manufacturing in Deeside. We are committed to building on our strengths to create an economy where everyone can share the benefits of our economic success.

[Mrs Villiers]

One of the most important themes of the Government’s industrial strategy is the determination to ensure that all nations and regions of the UK can benefit from economic prosperity. An important aspect of that is science and research, which I hope the Minister will agree offers real potential for businesses in Wales to prosper and create jobs.

[Guto Bebb]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend about the importance of investing in skills and high-tech industries in a Welsh context. I know that our university sector stands ready to support the Welsh economy to ensure that we have such skills.

[Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op)]

What representations has the Minister made to his Government about placing steel at the heart of their industrial strategy, and how will the UK Government support the innovative products and projects coming out of Swansea University that will future-proof steel making for many generations?

[Guto Bebb]

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has stated, he recently met the trade unions in relation to the steel sector, and one of my first visits as a Minister was to the Tata plant in Deeside, so we understand the importance of steel to Wales. This Government have been unyielding in our support for the steel industry in Wales, and that will continue.

[Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (SNP)]

The UK has lacked a strategic approach to industrial policy for many years, and Wales has suffered as a result. What specific measures in the Government’s industrial strategy will be brought in to help Wales?

[Guto Bebb]

It is very important to state that the industrial strategy in a Welsh context must be a partnership between the two Governments that Wales has—we have the UK Government and the Welsh Government—and Wales will succeed and prosper if those two Governments work together. I am glad to be able to say to the hon. Lady that in relation to skills for the energy sector, support for the car manufacturing sector and support for the steel sector, the two Governments are working together to ensure the best for Wales in terms of industrial strategy and developing new opportunities for the people of Wales.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

As the Minister has said, we have many important employers on Deeside—Airbus, Tata, Toyota—but we also have many companies in the supply chain that are very important. We must not only keep those companies post-Brexit, but encourage more to come in.

[Guto Bebb]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. Deeside is a great success story for the UK economy, not just for the Welsh economy. He is absolutely right that we need to build on that success by drawing in more investment, and that is why the Secretary of State and I will be holding a summit with the Department for International Trade in Wales in the very near future.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

One of the biggest infrastructure projects we are about to engage in is the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster. Will the Minister make sure that this is part of an industrial strategy for Wales? We do not have enough people in this country to complete the work, and we need academies in every constituency in the land to give young people the skills they need to work in this building.

[Mr Speaker]

The question is certainly part of an ingenuity strategy, on which I congratulate the hon. Gentleman.

[Guto Bebb]

I will obviously not comment on the issue of the refurbishment of the Palace, but I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of getting skills that are relevant to the fabric of buildings in Wales, historic buildings especially. I pay tribute to Coleg Llandrillo Menai, which is doing exactly that—training young people not just in building skills, but in traditional building skills as well.

[Tom Elliott (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) (UUP)]

4. What assessment he has made of priorities for Welsh agriculture policy after the UK has left the EU.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

We are determined to get the best deal on leaving the EU. We want a world-leading food and farming industry and the cleanest, healthiest environment for generations. Agriculture is clearly a devolved area, and I am keen for Welsh farmers to add value to their products. We have the capacity and scope to be innovative, not only in growing great products and producing great food, but in processing and selling them worldwide.

[Tom Elliott]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Will he confirm whether, once the UK leaves the European Union, agriculture policy and funding will be devolved to the regions or remain here with the United Kingdom Government?

[Guto Bebb]

It is certainly the case that agriculture policy is currently devolved. Clearly, there will be a repatriation of powers from Brussels to Westminster as a result of the decision to leave the European Union, but there is an ongoing and positive discussion between Westminster and the Welsh Government in relation to where powers will lie. I say categorically that that partnership is essential for the success of agriculture. That partnership must be not only constructive but objective in respect of what works for the farming industry in Wales and the UK.

[Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury) (Con)]

Many of my constituents farm cross-border and produce excellent, high-quality British agricultural produce. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure there is the widest possible market access for that produce post-exit?

[Guto Bebb]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, who knows the agricultural sector in north Wales and Cheshire extremely well, and who understands the cross-border nature of much farming in Wales. The key point is that we must be aware that we have a great product to offer the rest of the world. It is essential that we go out and sell that product, which is why the Wales Office is forging such a close relationship with the Secretary of State for International Trade. It is essential that we grow the markets for Welsh products, rather than be defensive about the issue.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Is this not a wonderful opportunity to reform agricultural subsidies to decouple Wales from the system in England that rewards people for owning land and not, as they are rewarded in Wales, for producing food? Should we not end the system of paying millionaires and billionaires up to £1 million each a year, while Welsh farmers have to struggle with small subsidies? Can we have Welsh policies for Welsh farmers?

[Guto Bebb]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the aim of the Government is to have a farming policy that is right for the UK and right for Wales. He was much more positive about our farming industry in a recent Westminster Hall debate and I agree with the comments he made in that debate. It is essential that we support the farming industry in Wales, while moving forward following our exit from the European Union.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that Brexit gives us the opportunity to set a new agricultural policy in Wales, starting with positive changes to the common agricultural policy?

[Guto Bebb]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that, in view of our decision to leave the European Union, it is essential that we develop an agricultural system that works for farmers in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. The common agricultural policy was guilty of the fossilisation of Welsh farming, because it encouraged people not to retire. It is essential to look at the problems created by the common agricultural policy while we design a new system for Wales.

[Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)]

12. Sixty- eight per cent of Welsh exports, including those from the Welsh agricultural sector, go to the European Union. Perhaps the Minister can tell us how leaving the single market and the customs union will lead to a better deal for Welsh exporters.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the percentage of Welsh exports that go to the European Union, but he should realise that access to the single market is what is now crucial. It was very apparent from the decision to leave the European Union that we will not be a member of the single market. We need to negotiate the best possible access deal with the European Union and I think that will be possible in due course.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Last Friday, I visited Trewen farm in Botwnnog with the Farmers Union of Wales. This dairy farm has contributed over £150,000 to the local economy in the last three years, yet only three years from now Welsh farmers are set to face a perfect storm. Can the Minister reveal what transitional arrangements will be put in place to safeguard our rural economy?

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question and the use of the term “perfect storm”. It is an acknowledgement of the press release sent out by the Farmers Union of Wales. I can reassure her that the issue should be about access to the single market, and while the FUW has expressed its concern about the decision to leave the single market, my discussions and meetings with farmers’ unions in Wales, both the FUW and the National Farmers Union, have highlighted access to it as the crucial issue for Welsh farmers.

[Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)]

During Welsh questions last April, the Minister said:

“The extent of Welsh agricultural produce that is exported to the EU shows how important that market is; 90% of Welsh agricultural produce is exported to the EU and we should not risk losing that.”—[Official Report, 13 April 2016; Vol. 608, c. 341.]

Given those comments, will he explain why his Government wish to leave the single market?

[Guto Bebb]

At the risk of repeating myself, let me point out that the hon. Gentleman is right that 90% of Welsh farming exports go to the EU, which is why I have repeatedly stated that the issue that farmers in Wales are concerned about is access to the single market. That is the issue that will make a difference to Welsh farmers and towards which the Department and the Government will be working.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) and wish him and his colleagues a happy Burns night.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

Of course, the difficulty with nuclear generation is that it requires the infrastructure to get it to the markets. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that some concern has been expressed about this issue, and where possible underground cabling has distinct advantages. No final decisions have been made, and National Grid is carrying out further environmental and technical assessments.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

6. What assessment he has made of the progress of the broadband roll-out programme and the effects of that programme on the tourism industry in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

The Superfast Cymru programme, which is jointly funded by the UK and Welsh Governments, is on track to deliver superfast speeds to 96% of premises by spring 2016, and more than 135,000 premises in Wales have already been connected. The Wales Office continues to be in close contact with BT, Ofcom and Broadband Delivery UK as the roll-out continues.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the Minister for his response. Some £120 million of public money has been put into the roll-out of broadband in Wales, yet my constituency of Aberconwy has had no roll-out as yet. That is having a huge effect on businesses, not least in the tourism sector. Does the Minister agree that we need more accountability in the way that the spending of public money happens in the Welsh Government?

[Stephen Crabb]

As I said, we are in close discussions with the Welsh Government, Ofcom, and Broadband Delivery UK about how public money is being spent on the roll-out in Wales. We are aware of concerns that my hon. Friend and colleagues have raised in recent months, and we communicate those to the Welsh Government and take them very seriously.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 26th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

That is extremely generous, Mr Speaker.

I do not recall that zero-hours contracts were subject to the recommendations of part II of Silk report. I will look again at the report more closely, but the right hon. Gentleman will know that, as a proportion, zero-hours contracts are only 2% of all contracts for work in Wales.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is difficult to see the justification for the devolution of further powers given that the Welsh Government are refusing any fiscal accountability?

[Mr Jones]

We are anxious to seek fiscal accountability for the Assembly, and that is what we propose to deliver with, no doubt, the support of all parts of the House.

Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark). It is difficult to try to make a speech after the Front-Bench speeches have been made, because many of the points I wanted to make have already been eloquently made.

Prior to this debate, I received a number of e-mails from constituents who are finally becoming aware of the issue of the TTIP, and that is no bad thing. The all-party group, which has been in existence for almost nine months, has held two debates and conducts regular meetings, so at least it is making sure that the issue is debated in a transparent manner in this Parliament. It is important that we discuss such issues as regularly as necessary and that we touch on the serious concerns that have been raised by a number of Members. It is clear that those who have spoken reflect a spectrum of opinion on this very important issue. I might not necessarily agree with everything that has been said by many a Member, but it is important that we have this open debate.

Given the current situation, this is an opportune moment for this second debate. A stock-taking exercise is taking place and there are question marks over the possible threat to the fast-track process, which will come as no surprise to those of us who travelled to Washington in October and early November, where the confidence of the British embassy was not reflected in our discussions with American Congressmen, who were very concerned about signing or agreeing any fast-track procedure prior to the mid-term elections this November. This is, therefore, an opportunity for us as parliamentarians to take stock as well.

We also need to be aware of the need to maintain momentum, because I am concerned at the number of scare stories I read in the press and certainly in my e-mail inbox. We need to address them, because it is important to make sure that our discussion is not just open, but honest. One of the scare stories I received in an e-mail said that the treaty would create no jobs or economic development, which is a risible claim. We have received evidence from the TUC, the CBI and the Federation of Small Businesses, all of which highlight the treaty’s potential. More importantly, individual companies, including small businesses and farming unions in Wales, see the real opportunities for job creation and economic benefit from such a treaty. It is therefore important, whatever the views of Members, that we highlight the fact that the potential for job creation is very real.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), who is no longer in his place, raised the issue of unfair competition from America in food production, which might arise not only from genetically modified and synthetic hormones, but from lower levels of animal welfare. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) agrees that those issues must be resolved before we can wholeheartedly enter into this trade agreement.

[Guto Bebb]

I accept that we must ensure that a treaty requires a level playing field for food producers. The Farmers Union of Wales and the National Farmers Union in Wales have certainly been very supportive of such efforts. Indeed, Hybu Cig Cymru, which promotes Welsh meat, has been to Washington in anticipation of the potential impact of the treaty on the Welsh food sector.

We need to make sure that there is a level playing field, but it is worth recalling the words of the Governor of Delaware when we were in America. That state is a huge producer of chickens, which it cannot export to the EU marketplace. He made a very fair point when he highlighted the fact that 96% of Members of the European Parliament have voted for a ban on American chickens, but that he had not met a single MEP visiting Delaware who said no to a club sandwich. When we talk about a safety issue, it is important that the issue is genuinely one about safety, not about a regulatory requirement that damages free trade.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Is that not the key point? Without agreements such as this one, we will not have a level playing field, but will go backwards to having more barriers across the piece.

[Guto Bebb]

I could not agree more. It is a shame that my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) is no longer in his place. On the regulatory burden in relation not to the food industry but to the automobile sector, which would undoubtedly benefit from a TTIP agreement, Jaguar Land Rover—a huge investor in our manufacturing base—has highlighted the regulations on airbags. It has to insert different panels and dashboards in its vehicles for the American market, because airbags in America have to work on the basis of people not wearing a seatbelt, while those in the European Union do so on the basis of people wearing a seatbelt. That leads to extra cost, and it is a disincentive for trade. We could certainly benefit consumers by dealing with such regulations, which seem to have no purpose whatever, except to add cost and possibly to create extra employment for health and safety experts on either side of the Atlantic.

Another scare story that I should mention is the one about these agreements bringing no advantage to consumers. Anybody who has listened to Which? would be hard pressed to conclude that no consumer would benefit from such a trade agreement. When people argue that consumers will not benefit from free trade, there is something important to bear in mind: I find it very odd that the very people who make that argument do so by sending me e-mails from iPads manufactured in China or from Samsung telephones manufactured in Korea. They are quite willing to use the advantages of free trade to communicate their concerns about free trade, which puts them in a very odd position.

Another key issue about which I am seriously concerned is how the national health service is again being used as a political football in this debate. I want to state on the record that nobody can outflank me in supporting the concept of a health service free at the point of use for those in need. Somebody whose family has needed the support of the health service, as mine has, would never not support the concept of a free health service. However, the mere concept that American companies accessing the health sector in the United Kingdom is somehow different from European ones doing so is very odd.

I simply do not get another of the arguments in relation to people being so concerned about the involvement of private companies in our health service. Ever since the instigation of the NHS in 1948, the most respected part of the health service has been the traditional GP surgery. That is a robust private sector initiative within the health service. The issue is not about whether doctors make a profit because of their work, but about whether they offer patients a good service. I would be very comfortable with American companies delivering medical services, provided that those services are of a very high standard, are in tune with United Kingdom regulations and, more importantly, are delivering good patient care. Surely that is the issue. It is a pedantic view that any private involvement is simply wrong. We need to challenge that view. We need to be honest about the way in which the private sector adds value to the health service. We should reject the use of the health service to attack the TTIP.

[Katy Clark]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Guto Bebb]

I have to conclude my remarks, because I have only two minutes left.

We have talked about investor-state dispute settlement. The United Kingdom has been signing such agreements for an extremely long time and some 94 agreements are in place. As yet, not a single challenge has been made on the basis of public policy and not a single case has been lost by the United Kingdom. I genuinely believe that this matter is being used by those who are lobbying against a trade treaty to make people feel opposed to it.

I have some sympathy with the argument that if such scaremongering is a danger to the treaty, we should ask ourselves whether we can compromise on that issue. We must acknowledge that the US and the EU have well-established, mature legal systems. I say that not because I agree with the arguments that are being made, but because I want to ensure that as few obstacles as possible get in the way of the treaty, which I genuinely believe would make a significant difference to our economic performance.

I have talked about food. It is crucial to my constituency that we have access to other markets. Farmers in the Conwy valley believe that they could export more than £30 million-worth of Welsh lamb to the US. The deal is therefore extremely important.

The key point is that any treaty must take into account the needs not just of large corporations, but of small businesses. Economic recovery in Wales is dependent on small businesses and this treaty must work for them as well.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

On the “Buy American” strategy in America, is it not the case that the concern lies more with politicians than businesses? One business in Philadelphia said that “Buy American” often means paying more for lower quality, and that they do not have their own businesses to develop it.

[Mark Pawsey]

My hon. Friend makes a fair point, but the perception of politicians was that the “Buy American” policy kept jobs in the United States and prevented them from being lost. As politicians, they wanted to ensure that employment in their states was being maximised.

The US does not always give things away and there is not a gung-ho attitude to the free market. Regular reference was made to the 1920 Merchant Marine Act, otherwise known as the Jones Act, being a great example of how America can be protectionist when it wishes to be. That is the legislation that requires all goods transported by water between US ports to be carried on US-flagged ships constructed in the US, owned by US citizens and crewed by US citizens. So the US can be protectionist and prevent other countries from gaining access to its markets. We heard more than once the quote from Benjamin Franklin:

“No nation was ever ruined by trade.”

The TTIP provides massive opportunities for US goods and produce in the EU.

In the UK there is broad support, as we have heard from both Front Benches today, and why would there not be, when we are talking about 50% of world GDP and 30% of international trade? This is an opportunity for us only if our economy, our industry and our service companies are in shape to take advantage of it. That is why the broader policies of this Government to increase our competitiveness and our skills agenda are important. If those are right, we can take advantage of an additional £10 billion to the UK economy.

I am pleased that the Federation of Small Businesses here in the UK welcomes the TTIP negotiations and looks forward to a resolution. A fifth of FSB members are exporters, and the US is the second most important destination for small businesses that export. It is believed that the TTIP could add 400,000 UK jobs. The FSB has set out a wish-list for the TTIP, including a pledge to promote entrepreneurship and a pledge of smart regulation on both sides of the Atlantic.

This has been a very important debate. There are big opportunities for both the EU and the US in growth and jobs. There needs to be a timetable. One of the concerns that I was left with as I came away is that there are rather more serious consequences of not doing a deal than there would ever be of doing a deal.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 12th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman attend the meeting that I have already agreed with the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies).

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of the effects on Wales of the Government’s policy on superfast broadband roll-out.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

As a result of the £57 million investment by this coalition Government in Westminster, the roll-out of superfast broadband in Wales will transform our broadband network. Last month, it was confirmed that 100,000 Welsh homes and businesses can now get access to superfast broadband.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the Minister for his response. I welcome the fact that the roll-out is doing well in Wales. Will he respond to the fact that Llandudno and Llandudno junction, which are key commercial centres in north Wales, are not even scheduled for roll-out as yet? Is that another example of the Welsh Labour Government prioritising south Wales over north Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

All Welsh Members of Parliament want their constituencies to be at the front of the queue for superfast broadband. The roll-out implementation plans are agreed between BT Cymru, the Welsh Government and Broadband Delivery UK. If my hon. Friend has specific concerns about that process, will he please raise them with me, and I will ensure that they get an airing?

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. The Government are taking those practical steps to help people on the lowest incomes in particular. We are determined that this should be a recovery for all sections of society in Wales.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The autumn statement contained very welcome measures to reduce the burden of business rates on small businesses in England. What efforts will the Minister make to ensure that the Welsh Government follow suit, to support small businesses in Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

In the autumn statement, we made resources available to the Welsh Government to take exactly the same action as the Government in Westminster have taken to help small businesses with their business rates. I was pleased that the Welsh Minister announced yesterday that they would take forward the cap on business rates in Wales. We have yet to hear whether they will deliver the £1,000 discount for small businesses that we are delivering.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The right hon. Gentleman is a member of a party about which one of his colleagues said it was “intensely relaxed” about people becoming filthy rich. It was intensely relaxed about many families on low incomes being pushed into greater household debt. We do not take that approach; we are trying to bring down household debt.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the Labour party claims to be concerned about the cost of living in Wales, yet on the one cost it can control, the council tax, it has failed miserably to support Welsh constituents?

[Stephen Crabb]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If Opposition Members were genuinely concerned about tackling the cost of living in Wales they would be hammering on the door of their Labour colleagues in the Welsh Government in Cardiff and demanding that they freeze council tax bills, as we have for households in England.