Respect Orders and Antisocial Behaviour

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will make a statement on the Government’s action to tackle antisocial behaviour.

From residential neighbourhoods to busy high streets, from rolling countryside to city centres and from idyllic villages to bustling towns, the places of Britain should be a source of local pride. As well as being safe, they should feel safe for those who live and work in them, yet the dismal reality is that in too many areas the opposite is true. In the last year of the previous Government, shop theft soared by 29% to a 20-year high, street theft surged by 40% and antisocial behaviour reached new heights in our towns and cities. That is the Conservative party’s legacy on law and order.

Up and down the country, people feel uneasy or even unsafe. Unruly gangs roam the streets, creating intimidation and fear, noisy off-road vehicles speed around, disturbing the peace, illegal drugs are abused with brazenness, public spaces are awash with litter and graffiti, and an epidemic of shop theft is plaguing retailers big and small while their staff are subjected to intolerable levels of abuse and violence.

At its core, this is about respect: respect between citizens, respect for our society and the expectations underpinning it, and respect for the rule of law. All those are woven into the fabric of our democracy, but, after years of neglect, that fabric has become worn. We saw a disgraceful illustration of that in the summer when serious disorder erupted in some towns and cities. We see it on a smaller scale every day as decent, law-abiding people suffer due to the selfishness of others.

More than a third of people—36%—in England and Wales report experiencing or witnessing some type of antisocial behaviour in their local area, while about a million incidents of antisocial behaviour were recorded by police in the year to June 2024. We must never make the mistake of dismissing this menace as low-level or trivial; to do so would be an insult to the victims. It may manifest itself in different ways in different areas, but wherever and however it occurs there is an adverse impact on neighbourhoods and communities.

Antisocial behaviour chips away at people’s sense of pride and confidence in their local area. It ruins their enjoyment of public spaces. For those affected by the most serious and persistent cases, their quality of life is damaged. One victim quoted in a report on antisocial behaviour published recently by the Victims Commissioner said this:

“Every day I’m crying…It makes me anxious…and it actually makes me physically sick.”

Another said:

“It’s totally isolating and nobody can understand the pressure it puts on you.”

I am sure that all hon. Members across the House will be familiar with accounts like those from the all-too-frequent interactions we have with our constituents on these issues.

Earlier this month, I visited Leyton in east London, where I heard from local councillors about the importance of partners working together to tackle antisocial behaviour. More recently, the Home Secretary and I met victims of antisocial behaviour and shop theft, Annie Valentine and Brian Roberts from Blackpool and Tim Nye from Sheffield, to hear about their concerns at first hand.

This cannot go on, and the Government will not stand for it. That is why the Prime Minister has made safer streets a central pillar of our agenda for change. A key part of that mission is the work that the Home Secretary is leading alongside police to put visible neighbourhood policing back at the heart of our communities. By restoring that crucial link between police forces and the people they serve, we will ensure that residents and businesses have the reassurance they want and need as well as deterring would-be offenders. As we implement our neighbourhood policing guarantee, we are determined to tackle antisocial behaviour head on. Today, I can update the House on that work.

To turn things around and effectively combat the problem, it is clear that fresh impetus is needed, which is why we committed in our manifesto to introducing respect orders, which will enable tough restrictions to be placed on the worst adult perpetrators of antisocial behaviour. Those subject to a respect order could be banned from a town centre as well as being compelled to address the root cause of their behaviour—for example, through mandated alcohol and drug treatment. The orders will be applied for by the police, by councils or by social housing providers and issued by the courts.

Importantly, there will be a power of arrest available for all suspected breaches, protecting communities and town centres from further harm. We are going even further: anyone who breaches a respect order will have committed a criminal offence and may face up to two years’ imprisonment, an unlimited fine or a community order. These new powers will be piloted first to ensure that they are as effective as possible.

We will also crack down on the scourge of off-road bikes in public parks, dangerous e-scooters on pavements and street racing, all of which inflict misery on local communities. Under strengthened police powers, officers will no longer be required to issue a warning before seizing vehicles involved in antisocial behaviour.

Retail crime harms lives and livelihoods and be must dealt with as the serious threat that it is. We will introduce a new, specific offence of assaulting a retail worker and we will end the effective immunity for shop theft of goods under £200.

The task of making our country safer will not be completed overnight, but this is a Government of action. The work of change is under way and, as we step up this vital effort, we are guided by the simple and unshakeable belief that our streets belong to the decent, law-abiding majority. For far too long, gangs, yobs and thieves have been running amok, and that is not going to happen any more. Under this Government, the safety and security of the public will always come first. We will be unrelenting in our mission to restore respect and take back our streets.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Matt Vickers (Stockton West) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for her statement and for advance sight of it. It is not right that anyone should live in fear of intimidation in the place that they call home. Antisocial behaviour has real consequences—it can ruin communities and prevent people from making the most of their local area. Antisocial behaviour can make women and girls feel unsafe walking home at night, and it can have a huge impact on shops and businesses if customers are left feeling unsafe visiting their high streets and town centres.

We welcome any focus on antisocial behaviour and efforts to tackle it, but tackling it requires more than a press release or a rebrand. Those in the sector have described the proposed respect orders as wholly unnecessary and near-identical to existing powers already held by the police. We will engage with the Government as proposals are brought forward, but we are keen to see meaningful action rather than just the renaming of public space protection orders and criminal behaviour orders. Changing names will not change outcomes.

The last Government launched the antisocial behaviour action plan, backed by £160 million worth of funding and over 100,000 hours of police and other uniformed patrols, undertaken to target antisocial behaviour hotspots. As of February 2024, our plan led to nearly 600 additional arrests, close to 1,500 stop and searches and around 700 uses of antisocial behaviour powers such as community protection orders and public protection orders.

My own Labour police and crime commissioner in Cleveland has commended the huge contribution made by the last Government’s hotspot policing initiative. Uniform patrols delivered by local authority wardens in Cleveland clocked up a total of 7,685 hours on the streets of Stockton, Hartlepool, Middlesbrough and Redcar. As a result, between 23 September and 24 August, the police reported that incidents of antisocial behaviour were down by 21% in hotspot areas. We also banned nitrous oxide and increased fines for fly-tipping, littering and graffiti, all of which are a blight on our communities. The Conservative Government made sure that the police had the tools to discourage antisocial behaviour, and dedicated funding to support police and crime commissioners to target enforcement in the areas where antisocial behaviour is most prevalent.

The police play a vital role in tackling antisocial behaviour and keeping our communities safe. The Conservative Government invested over £3 billion, including additional funding each year. That rolled into Government grants to enable the recruitment of 20,000 additional police officers—a Government priority and a manifesto commitment. By March this year, the police headcount hit 149,769—a record number of police, and 3,000 higher than previous records. Last year, the Conservative Government arranged a £922 million increase in funding for frontline policing for this financial year—something I hope will be matched next year. Does the Minister agree that in order to tackle antisocial behaviour, we must ensure that police have the necessary resources and support?

The right hon. Lady spoke about Labour’s manifesto commitment to provide 13,000 additional police officers, police community support officers and specials, but has failed to set out any of the detail of when those officers will be recruited and which forces will receive those additional officers. Can she explain how these respect orders are different from the failed antisocial behaviour orders, or the existing public space protection orders or criminal behaviour orders? Our action plan puts safety, security and a basic respect for others at its heart. Will she commit to continuing the hotspot policing initiative, especially as we can already see the results across the country? I know I have asked before, but I never quite managed to get an answer: the last Government increased funding for frontline policing by £922 million for this year—will the Government match that increase next year?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am grateful to the shadow Minister for acknowledging in his opening comments the effect that antisocial behaviour can have on communities and on individuals. But during the rest of his response, he seemed to have lapsed back into that condition that affects a number of right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Benches: amnesia about what happened over the course of their 14 years in power, including the vicious cuts to policing, with over 20,000 police officers and thousands of police staff cut. Trying to ignore the legacy that we have inherited and are having to deal with today is not satisfactory from the Dispatch Box.

[Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)]

Answer the questions, Diana.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am going to answer the questions, if the hon. Lady will give me an opportunity to do so. [Interruption.] I think a little courtesy in the House is helpful. We are talking about antisocial behaviour, and a number of my comments were about respect, which is very important in this House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Can we have less noise and heckling from the Back Benches?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I have always tried to be respectful to all Members of this House, and I will now try to deal with some of the points made by the shadow Minister.

The most important point for the shadow Minister to understand is that respect orders are different from criminal behaviour orders—I do not think he quite understood that. Criminal behaviour orders are attached where there is a conviction, and the Crown Prosecution Service applies in court for that criminal behaviour order. Respect orders will not require a conviction. They will be made on application to court by councils, social housing providers and the police. A power of arrest will be attached if they are breached, and that individual will be brought before the magistrates court if that breach happens. They are different from a criminal behaviour order. They are also different in the sense that they are not community protection notices, which I think the shadow Minister referred to, which are for lower-level environmental antisocial behaviour issues.

In the conversations I have had with individuals in the sector and organisations that work in this field, respect orders got a lot of support. We want to pilot them. We want to make sure that they will work fully when we bring them in across the country. I am confident that they will provide the flexibility of a civil injunction, which is what deals with antisocial behaviour at the moment. But if a civil injunction is breached, the police officer has to take the individual to court to prove the breach. There is no automatic power of arrest. That is the difference from the respect order. It combines the flexibility of the civil injunction with the teeth of the criminal behaviour order. I hope that explains to the shadow Minister why respect orders are a very positive development to deal with antisocial behaviour.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Education Select Committee.

[Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)]

I welcome the measures that the Minister has set out today and the Government’s commitment to tackling antisocial behaviour, which is an urgent issue in my constituency, particularly in town centres. But the most urgent issue that we face in tackling these issues is the number of police officers. My hon. Friend will be aware that the previous Government allocated funding to recruit police officers, and then withdrew it when the Met was unable to meet its target due to a set of unique challenges in London. Can my right hon. Friend give her firm assurance that the unique challenges facing the Met are fully understood, and that the Government will provide it with the resources that it needs to tackle this very serious issue in our communities?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this issue. The Met makes up almost a quarter of overall policing. It plays a very important part in policing London, but it also has other responsibilities at national level—counter-terrorism and so on. Decisions on funding are being taken at the moment. The House will be informed in the normal way next month about the provisional settlements for policing, but I hear my hon. Friend concerns very clearly.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I call the Liberal Democrats spokesperson, who knows that she has a maximum of two minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her comments and questions. First, the specific issue we want to address is giving the police the powers they need to deal with the antisocial behaviour that is being caused by off-road bikes and e-bikes. The hon. Lady also spoke about what else the police need to be able to implement those changes effectively, and I will contact her with more details on that. I will certainly talk to the police about what more we can do to support them.

As to the neighbourhood policing guarantee and our commitment to put 13,000 police officers, PCSOs and specials into our neighbourhoods, I am sure the hon. Lady will recognise that we are five months into this Government. We are working as hard as we can to get plans in place. We are doing this work with policing. We want to ensure that the police are with us on this and that we have everything set up to allow that to happen smoothly, and those announcements will be made in due course. I want to reassure the House that making that happen is probably my No. 1 priority.

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

I welcome the Government’s plans to introduce respect orders to tackle the scourge of antisocial behaviour. I hear from my constituents in Battersea all the time on their concerns and worries about antisocial behaviour in parts of our community. Can the Minister confirm that the new orders will also include public drinking and drug use to ensure that our communities are safe and free from harm and nuisance?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we want to address issues such as street drinking and taking drugs. The whole idea of a respect order will be restrictive in the sense that an individual may be told that they can no longer be in a certain area, such as on the high street, in a town centre or in a park. However, positive conditions will also be attached: if there were issues around someone street drinking, they could attend courses for alcohol addiction; they could attend courses or treatment for drug addiction; if it was appropriate, they could attend courses on anger. In that way, we will be dealing with the problem in the area, but also trying to treat the underlying issue with the individual who has caused the antisocial behaviour.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I certainly support the Minister’s intent in bringing this forward, but I am still struggling to understand what the material difference is between these respect orders and antisocial behaviour orders. If it is the case that they are materially different, will the Minister say in what respects they are, and will she say to what extent that will be based on perception by a complainant? We have recently had considerable controversy around perception of an allegation and its effects in non-crime hate incidents, which has caused all manner of problems and bogged the police down in a whole load of controversy. I am sure the Minister would want to avoid that with this particular measure.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I say first to the right hon. Gentleman that changes were made to the antisocial behaviour legislation in 2014; in fact, it was weakened. The Conservatives and Liberal Democrats in coalition decided to weaken the antisocial behaviour powers that the previous Labour Government had brought in. That is the first thing to mention.

What we have ended up with are the civil injunctions. As I tried to explain earlier on—perhaps I need to do it again, and be a little clearer—civil injunctions can be issued for antisocial behaviour, but if they are breached by someone behaving antisocially in a town centre or on a high street, the police have to go to court to prove the breach. That is the issue. They cannot be arrested, and the antisocial behaviour cannot be stopped at that point. There is a process that has to be gone through. With the respect orders, there will be an automatic arrest for breach, which means action can be taken far more quickly. That is the key point.

The criminal behaviour orders, which we discussed earlier as well, can be attached only to someone who has been convicted. Those orders are about trying to nip the antisocial behaviour that is causing “harassment, alarm or distress”—that is the definition that is used. That is the level necessary to be able to apply for a respect order.

I hope that explains to the right hon. Gentleman the difference and why we think the way to go forward is to deal with things through arrest and get people in front of a court if they breach respect orders.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Shaun Davies (Telford) (Lab)]

In a recent survey of residents of Telford, it was overwhelmingly clear that they had had enough of the inaction of the past 14 years. I welcome the respect orders coming into the police officer toolkit. Can the Minister confirm that they will give the authorities the power to seize and crush off-road bikes, to seize booze off drunken yobs and to deal with those who consume drugs in our town centres? We also need a return to neighbourhood policing, so that we have coppers back on the streets, patrolling their communities.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am mindful of your instruction, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I can absolutely say that this is about rebuilding that neighbourhood presence to put those police officers, PCSOs and specials back in our communities and deal with exactly the issues that my hon. Friend has raised, with people drinking, taking drugs, riding vehicles and causing harassment, alarm, and distress.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I call a member of the Home Affairs Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman will know that where police stations are located and how many there are is a matter for police and crime commissioners, or, in the case of the Metropolitan police, for the Mayor of London and the deputy Mayor. Those are not decisions that I or any Minister would be involved in; they are operational decisions for PCCs and the Mayor.

[Matt Rodda (Reading Central) (Lab)]

I wholeheartedly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement today. Every week, I meet residents who very sadly have their lives disturbed, and sometimes even ruined, by appalling crime and antisocial behaviour, so I am delighted that the Minister is bringing forward these clearly well thought through and well explained measures. Would she perhaps consider Reading for one of the pilot schemes in this very important set of measures?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

There are many right hon. and hon. Members who are pitching for their constituencies to be one of the pilots, and I will certainly add Reading to the list.

[Lewis Cocking (Broxbourne) (Con)]

Antisocial behaviour affects all our constituencies, including my constituency of Broxbourne. Some antisocial behaviour can be very localised—down a specific street, in a block of flats or between neighbours—and some of the levers to solve that antisocial behaviour lie with housing associations. Will the Minister outline how we can bring housing associations to the table? They will play a key role in solving and tackling antisocial behaviour.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

As I said in my remarks, housing associations and social housing providers will be able to apply for respect orders. I ought to say, as well, that the existing civil injunctions will be renamed as housing injunctions, which will deal with that more low-level antisocial behaviour between neighbours. Housing associations might want to use those as well, but they will be able to use both respect orders and housing injunctions.

[Clive Efford (Eltham and Chislehurst) (Lab)]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. Does she agree that the biggest boost to antisocial behaviour we have seen in recent times was the cut of 21,000 police officers by the previous Tory Government, which resulted in the decimation of our local safer neighbourhood police teams? I really welcome her commitment to bringing them back. In addition, the London-hating Conservatives cut the London police budget, so much so that we have a black hole in the budget now that is forcing the commissioner to cut officers. Can she assure me that she is aware of that and will address it, so that we can start to put safer neighbourhood teams back where my constituents in Eltham and Chislehurst want to see them?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

It is always helpful to have experienced and long-standing Members of Parliament to remind us of what has actually happened, because, as I pointed out earlier, there seems to be some amnesia on the Opposition Benches.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

An estimated 60,000 hours of police time was spent on non-crime hate incidents in the past 12 months, and we already hear about burglaries not being investigated for lack of police time. So, while welcoming the description of the problem, how is it to be solved unless chief constables are to be directed to reorder their priorities?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The Government have made very clear our priorities for policing: protecting the public, as I talked about today; rebuilding neighbourhood policing; tackling town centre crime; tackling antisocial behaviour; tackling the scourge of knife crime; and halving violence against women and girls in the next decade. The Home Secretary has also been very clear about the common-sense approach that needs to be adopted when dealing with non-crime hate incidents. We are working with His Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services, and the College of Policing, on how best that can be done. It is vital though—I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree—that police forces are able to track and monitor information and intelligence that might be helpful if there is going to be further criminal activity or serious social harm, and community cohesion will be affected. Capturing that is something police forces need to do.

[Sally Jameson (Doncaster Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

In Doncaster, along with many other areas across the country, antisocial behaviour, fly-tipping, shoplifting and off-road bikes are blighting our communities and our high streets. As a former prison officer, I know that in dealing with these issues it is critical that we tackle the causes and pathways to crime in the first place. What are the Government doing to make it a priority to tackle the causes as well as the crimes themselves?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I welcome my hon. Friend; her experience as a former prison officer will be invaluable in this place, bringing that knowledge to share in our debates. She is absolutely right; prevention, which has been ignored for too long, is really important, particularly in relation to young people. That is why we will set up the Young Futures programme—the youth hubs—to, as the Home Secretary said, wrap our arms around those teenagers who might be getting into trouble, making the wrong decisions, and getting involved in things that they should not be involved in, and we will have that preventive pathway to ensure that they start to take the right steps forward.

[Alison Bennett (Mid Sussex) (LD)]

My constituent Linda, along with other members of my community, is extremely concerned about antisocial behaviour in Burgess Hill. Car racing, e-scooters and bike thefts are causing fear and distress to residents across the town. As the Minister noted in her statement, the impact of that behaviour should not be minimised. I have raised these issues with both Sussex police and the police and crime commissioner. What can the Minister do to ensure that Sussex police have sufficient resources to stop a small number of perpetrators having a disproportionate effect on law-abiding constituents across Mid Sussex?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

Sussex Members of Parliament are listening very closely to the Minister.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Announcements on the provisional police settlement will be made in the usual way next month. The Home Secretary has already indicated that an additional half a billion pounds will be made available for policing. That has already been announced. With regard to the direct figures for Sussex, I am afraid that the hon. Lady and you, Madam Deputy Speaker, will have to wait a few more days.

[Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes) (Lab)]

I never thought that I would see the day when we had Conservative Members arguing against more powers to increase the safety of our communities up and down the country—it is absolutely gobsmacking. I, for one, absolutely support what the Minister is bringing in today in relation to respect orders. My constituents feel the impact of antisocial behaviour very keenly, but they will want some assurance from the Minister that there will be sufficient police officers and PCSOs available to issue respect orders in a timely manner. Can she do that, please?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. It is rather odd that the picture painted by the Opposition is that all the powers are there so everything is fine and why do we need to change things, when it is quite clear to the vast majority of people, I think, that things are not fine and the powers and the legislation are not working as we need them to. That is why we are bringing forward these additional respect orders and the neighbourhood policing guarantee—the 13,000 police officers, specials and PCSOs who we want to have back in our community to actually use the legislation and get antisocial behaviour under control.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Antisocial behaviour is a blight on our communities and I agree that the police should be given the resources to tackle it. In my constituency, Cambridgeshire Constabulary is overstretched. In the past week, the Policing Minister has twice dismissed my question as to whether she would review the police allocation formula so that it receives its fair share of funding, and my constituents have noticed. Will she review the formula? If not, how will the Government meet their guarantee for neighbourhood policing?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Can I just say to the hon. Gentleman that I have not dismissed anything? I am very conscious of and take seriously my responsibilities in the allocation of resources for policing. We have been in power for five months and we have to announce next month the provisional police settlement for 2025-26. Those figures will be announced in a few weeks’ time. As to whether we want to look longer term at resources, we of course keep that all under review. But for the moment, the thing I think most MPs are concerned about is the allocation for next year. That is what I am working on at the moment. That is the thing the Home Secretary is working on. We are trying to do our best and the Home Secretary has already announced an additional half a billion pounds for policing.

[John Slinger (Rugby) (Lab)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that an important component of ensuring that our streets belong to law-abiding citizens is the good work of councils such as mine, for example in providing highly professional community wardens with enforcement powers, working in partnership with business improvement district rangers and the police? Does she agree that that innovative approach to the antisocial behaviour ecosystem might lend itself to Rugby being high up the list to be a pilot?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I will certainly add Rugby to the list. My hon. Friend makes an important point about how this cannot just be done with the police alone; it has to be done alongside councils. I commend the use of community wardens, who are a great resource for communities in dealing with antisocial behaviour. Social housing providers are also key. This has to be about partnership working.

[Max Wilkinson (Cheltenham) (LD)]

I welcome the commitment to neighbourhood policing that will help Cheltenham fight its problems with graffiti and illegal e-bikes, but when I talk to my local police commissioner he warns me that he is expecting to have to work very hard to maintain the force’s current headcount because of budgetary pressures in the coming year. Can the Minister explain the apparent disconnect between the concerns of the commissioner locally and the Government’s statement today?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I do not think anybody is pretending that we have inherited a positive, rosy economic settlement from the previous Government. We are having to make difficult decisions and tough choices. What is very clear is that the security and safety of the British people is the No. 1 issue for this Government, and that the Home Secretary—as I have now said, I think, three times—has already said there is additional funding for policing next year. Additional funding was put into police forces up and down the country this year to fund the pay increase to police officers, which had not been in the budget that the previous Government had set for this year. We have already put in additional money, and we will be doing so next year as well.

[Olivia Bailey (Reading West and Mid Berkshire) (Lab)]

Illegal bikes are an absolute menace for people in Tilehurst, and indeed for all my constituents. I welcome the tough and swift action that the Government are taking on illegal bikes and antisocial behaviour, issues about which the Conservatives were clearly far too relaxed when they were in government. As well as associating myself with the request from my hon. Friend the Member for Reading Central (Matt Rodda), may I ask the Minister whether there will be new powers for the police to seize illegal bikes, get them off our streets and tackle this terrible problem?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I hear very clearly that those bikes, along with off-road motorbikes, are a problem up and down the country, and we are looking at that. What we can announce today is that we will be getting rid of the requirement for a warning, but we are certainly considering what else we need to do to ensure that the problem is dealt with properly by the police.

[Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s commitment to tackling antisocial behaviour. There is a particular problem in Fore Street, in my constituency, where those who abuse drugs and alcohol gather and make a nuisance of themselves. Will she please consider adding Bridgwater to her list of possible candidates for the pilot scheme?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I must say that I am very pleased to hear a Conservative Member of Parliament asking to be added to our list of pilot areas for the respect orders. I will certainly do that.

[Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)]

I wish to associate myself with the comments that have been made about the scourge of illegal motorbikes. They are a particular scourge in communities across Tipton, Wednesbury and Coseley. One of my favourite pledges in the Labour party’s manifesto was the pledge to seize those bikes without notice and crush them within 48 hours. Can the Minister tell us how soon we will get on with crushing the bikes?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Today I am able to say that we are going to do that. My hon. Friend will have to wait a little longer for the details and the timetable, but that is certainly my intention.

[Charlotte Cane (Ely and East Cambridgeshire) (LD)]

I welcomed much of the Minister’s statement. Shoplifting is a significant problem in my constituency, and shop workers in Littleport and Ely have recently told me how threatened they feel and how stressful it is. What will she do to ensure that our local police—who, as we have heard, are very stretched—have the resources and capacity needed to attend shoplifting incidents and deal with the criminals?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

What I often hear from shopkeepers and shop workers is that they do not report shop theft because they think no one will come and nothing will be done. That is one reason why the neighbourhood policing guarantee—bringing police officers back to our high streets and town and village centres—is so important. Those shop workers and shop owners will know that there is a visible police presence to deter but also to deal with those who try to shoplift; that action will be taken against them; and that there will be consequences for people who steal. We are getting rid of the £200 threshold and saying, “If you steal, that is a criminal offence and there are consequences.” During the riots in the summer, people in my own constituency in Hull were looting in shops, thinking that there were no consequences. There are consequences for theft.

[Mr Luke Charters (York Outer) (Lab)]

I recently held a public meeting about the concerning rise of antisocial behaviour in Haxby, and I want to thank the deputy mayor of York and North Yorkshire, Jo Coles, Haxby town council, the police and the local community for their efforts. Does my right hon. Friend agree that respect orders could play a key role in reducing antisocial behaviour in the town, and will she meet me to discuss this in more detail?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend. I think that what he has described demonstrates the role of partnership working in dealing with antisocial behaviour.

[David Chadwick (Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe) (LD)]

Rural crime is defined as crime and antisocial behaviour occurring in rural areas, which is very logical, but in my region just 0.24% of staff in the local police force are dedicated to rural crime units, despite the significant impact on communities in places such as Brecon and Ystradgynlais. Does the Minister agree with the Liberal Democrat proposal that every police force should have a specialist co-ordinator in its rural crime team, in line with recommendations from the National Rural Crime Network?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I take crime, urban or rural, very seriously. The neighbourhood policing guarantee, for example, is not just about urban areas; it has to cover rural areas as well. People living in rural areas should feel that when they need the police, the police will come, and that there is a police presence in their communities. I am happy to discuss rural crime further with the hon. Gentleman, if there are specific points that he wishes to raise with me.

[Josh Simons (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Since I was elected, there has been a constant stream of antisocial behaviour incidents across the towns that I represent, at Hindley Town and Ashton Athletic football clubs and in Platt Bridge and Winstanley. It really dents people’s pride in the towns that they live in, as the Minister said. Does she agree that the capacity for councils and housing associations to apply for and issue respect orders is a vital part of the new powers that she has announced today?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Yes, I absolutely agree. This is not just about the police; it has to involve councils, social housing providers and the other agencies that will tackle, together, the scourge of antisocial behaviour.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for her statement. Does she agree that antisocial behaviour is a plague throughout the United Kingdom, and that the remedy lies across several Departments? Obviously an increase in community policing is vital, but so too is youth sector funding to create safe spaces for our young people. Does she agree that we need investment across multiple Departments, dealing with matters from policing to education to communities? What discussions has she had with her Cabinet colleagues to ascertain whether such a joined-up approach could be more effective?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman has expressed very eloquently the role of mission-led government that this party is taking on. The mission on safer streets, which covers antisocial behaviour, is cross-governmental. It is not just about the Home Office, although we are the lead Government body in this context; it has to encompass all the other parts of Government, as well as local authorities and housing providers. This has to be a partnership, and it has to be cross-governmental.

[Noah Law (St Austell and Newquay) (Lab)]

Antisocial behaviour is sadly a blight on our town centre in St Austell, but also on many smaller clay country villages in my constituency. I therefore welcome the Minister’s announcement on respect orders, and invite the Government to pilot them in St Austell. What impact does the Minister expect these orders to have, when it comes to revitalising our once thriving town centres?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I will add my hon. Friend’s constituency to the list. Our purpose in piloting respect orders is to see what works and what the effect is, but we are confident that the ability to arrest someone who breaches an order will speed things up. We hear the complaint that when people are subject to antisocial behaviour orders, there has to be a long process of going to court and proving the breach. This is about arresting and dealing with the person who breaches an order quickly.

[Linsey Farnsworth (Amber Valley) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister’s announcement, not just as a former Crown prosecutor but because the towns in my constituency are sadly not immune from antisocial behaviour. We often see a small group of people repeatedly committing this offence in our towns. Does the Minister agree that respect orders will be a useful intervention tool for dealing with repeat offenders, and for tackling the root causes of their behaviour?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I welcome my hon. Friend to these exchanges. Her experience as a former Crown prosecutor is valuable and useful. She is right: it is usually a small group of people who engage in antisocial behaviour. We will deal with prolific offenders not just by using respect orders but by giving them something positive that they need, such as drug or alcohol addiction treatment or anger management courses, to try to solve the underlying problems.

[Sarah Coombes (West Bromwich) (Lab)]

Residents in Kenrick Way, in West Brom, dread Friday and Saturday nights, because selfish people race their cars up and down the street, causing deafening noise and extremely dangerous crashes. This has been going on for years and years, despite the efforts of Sandwell council and the West Midlands police. What will today’s announcement do to stop the racers and give residents in West Brom some peace and quiet?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend raises an issue that we have talked about a lot this afternoon. Under the law at the moment, there has to be a warning given before any action can be taken to deal with people who are racing and causing harm and distress with the vehicles that they are using. This is about getting rid of the requirement for a warning, so that action can be taken in a far more speedy way.

[David Baines (St Helens North) (Lab)]

May I add St Helens to the list of places that are interested in being a pilot area? I warmly welcome today’s announcement. As the Minister and others have said, there is nothing low-level about antisocial behaviour. It can destroy lives and communities, and it is right that we take it seriously. I am particularly pleased to hear about the steps taken to protect shop workers, and to hear that shoplifting will be taken seriously. Can the Minister tell me a bit more about how that might help shop workers in St Helens North? Does she agree that although it is great that we are giving the police more powers to tackle antisocial behaviour, they need resources to make a real difference in our communities?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I will certainly add my hon. Friend’s constituency to the list—it is growing, which is always positive. Proposals on retail crime and assaults on retail workers will be included in the crime and policing Bill next year. It is important to remember that people have campaigned for a stand-alone offence for many years, and there is now cross-party support for the offence, thanks to the campaigning of USDAW and the Co-op over many years.

[Mr Mark Sewards (Leeds South West and Morley) (Lab)]

I welcome today’s announcement on respect orders, which will be extremely welcome news for my constituents in Leeds South West and Morley. It is so good to finally have a Government who will deal with the scourge of antisocial behaviour. I have sat with constituents who have been in tears as they explained how their neighbour was making their life hell. Constituents have told me, at my surgery, that the police and the council’s antisocial behaviour teams had no power to act. Respect orders finally offer us the chance to change that. In the Minister’s statement, she said that respect orders would be reserved for the worst offenders. I can think of several people who would fit that criterion, so what reassurance will she give my constituents that it will be applied as liberally as possible?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The definition that I gave earlier—causing harassment, alarm or distress—will be used when respect orders are applied for. I ought to say that civil injunctions will remain in place when it comes to housing, so those can be used. Respect orders will be only for adults; for young people, the youth injunction will still be available, and there are sanctions within that. There will be a range of ways that antisocial behaviour can be tackled, using either respect orders or the reformed civil injunctions.

[David Taylor (Hemel Hempstead) (Lab)]

Hemel Hempstead has some of the worst antisocial behaviour in our part of the county. We have hotspots such as Livingstone Walk, Hosking Court, Waveney and Swallowfields, where there are issues such as drug use, boy racers with modified exhausts, abandoned vehicles, shoplifting and drunken noise; I have seen the evidence of that while out on the streets with local police. Fortunately, Hemel police are carrying out a great pilot project in Grovehill to try to clear the area, rebuild relations and deal with the thugs there. Could the Policing Minister kindly outline how the new respect orders will help Hemel police to do that great work, and will she join me in paying tribute to them for the work that they do to clean up our streets?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I will absolutely join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the police and other partner agencies, such as councils and housing associations, for the work that they already do. There is a great deal of good work going on around the country, and we need to build on that and give the police and others the powers that they need to take the action that they want to take on antisocial behaviour, which has just grown and grown in recent times. I wonder whether my hon. Friend would like to add his constituency to the list of pilot areas.

[Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)]

For too many communities, antisocial behaviour has become a nightmare, but my constituents in Bracknell are literally losing sleep over noisy and dangerous off-road bikes, which are being driven on footpaths, often late at night, so they will really welcome the tough new powers announced in the statement. Does the Minister believe that those powers will finally allow my constituents to get a good night’s sleep?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Diana Johnson]

We all know the importance of a good night’s sleep, so I hope very much that respect orders will go some way towards delivering that. There may be additional things that we need to do, but it is at least a start to remove the requirement for a warning before action can be taken to get these vehicles off our roads, parks and pavements, because they are causing such problems.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

We have saved the best till last. I call Andrew Pakes.

[Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)]

I think there is an unwritten rule in this House that whoever asks the last question gets to be top of the pilot list. Given its beautiful cathedral and wonderful diversity, Peterborough city centre is the jewel in Cambridgeshire’s crown, as I am sure that county colleagues present will agree, but we are being let down by the rise in antisocial behaviour. Shoplifting, street drinking, theft and intimidation are the big issues raised with me by residents, businesses and Peterborough Positive, our fantastic business improvement district. Does the Minister recognise the sheer anger that the British public feel about the fact that antisocial behaviour has not been dealt with, and about the way that they have been ghosted by the Conservative party, which, when it comes to dealing with antisocial behaviour, told them that they never had it so good? Will she explain to the House how the measures announced today will help restore trust and faith in the ability of the Government to address antisocial behaviour?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend is the last to ask a question, but it was a very important one. He is absolutely right: there is a huge amount of anger about how things were allowed to get to this point. There is complacency around the fact that there have been huge cuts to policing over the years, and there has not been the investment in neighbourhood policing that we need. Where we are is testament to that, and it is why we have to tackle antisocial behaviour.

My hon. Friend also makes an important point about businesses, which are part of how we tackle the scourge of antisocial behaviour in town centres. We are working with businesses, and are encouraging small businesses to team up with BIDs and other groups in their city centres, so that they work together and get information to help them deal with shoplifting.

Oral Answers to Questions

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Chris Ward (Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven) (Lab)]

22. What steps she is taking to help tackle retail crime.

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

In the last year of the previous Government, shop theft reached a record high, and we saw intolerable levels of abuse against shop workers, leaving people fearful of going to work. This Government will not stand by as these crimes devastate our high streets and town centres. That is why we are committed to rebuilding neighbourhood policing, scrapping the £200 limit, which has let thieves steal below the level with impunity, and introducing a new, stand-alone offence of assaulting a retail worker.

[Chris McDonald]

Our shop workers will be putting in some long, hard shifts in the coming weeks to help us to get ready for Christmas, but a report from the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers has said that their risk of being the victims of assault in the workplace has doubled in the last year. Will my right hon. Friend join me in commending USDAW’s Freedom from Fear campaign and affirm that the Government’s commitment to removing the immunity from certain types of shoplifting introduced by the Conservative Government will proceed at pace?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting USDAW’s findings and its tireless campaigning alongside the Co-op for the new stand-alone offence of assaulting a retail worker, which we will be proud to introduce in the forthcoming crime and policing Bill alongside the scrapping of the £200 limit. I take this opportunity to recognise the commitment of Cleveland’s police and crime commissioner, Matt Storey, in tackling retail crime. I look forward to working with all police and crime commissioners to tackle this scourge on our communities.

[Tom Rutland]

Shoplifting is a crime that threatens the feeling of safety for shoppers and shop workers alike. In my constituency of East Worthing and Shoreham, the issue has become so severe that in the past year a resident has described it as an epidemic. Can my right hon. Friend please tell me how the Government plan to tackle this issue, so that shoppers and businesses in my area can operate in safety and with confidence?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that people in East Worthing and Shoreham and across the entire country want to know how this Government are going to tackle this epidemic. I have referred to the 13,000 neighbourhood police officers, respect orders, the abolition of the £200 threshold limit and the stand-alone offence of assaulting a shop worker. I want to restore confidence in the people my hon. Friend represents—confidence that will make them feel their streets are safer—and ensure that criminals in their area pay the price for their crimes.

[Chris Ward]

My constituency team and I recently visited shops on one of the busiest high streets in my constituency. Of the first 10 we visited, nine said that their staff had suffered attacks at work, and all 10 said that shoplifting was now pretty much a daily occurrence. Does the Minister agree that extra resources and extra policing are part of the answer, but that we should also be looking at programmes such as offender to rehab schemes—one of which has been rolled out in the west midlands—to make sure we are also tackling the causes of retail crime?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend paints a deeply upsetting and unacceptable picture of the impact that aggressive and repeated shop theft can have on retail workers. The worst thing is that we know that it is replicated up and down the entire country; we cannot continue like this. That is why we are determined to take the action that I have set out in previous answers, but I agree that we have to look at issues around rehabilitation for offenders, including treatment for addiction where appropriate.

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

Bath is a very popular tourist and shopping destination, but it has also seen the highest increase in shoplifting offences between 2023 and 2024. For my shopkeepers to feel safe, they want a much more visible police presence in Bath. What can the Government do for them?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. Shop theft went up by 21% in the previous year, which is totally unacceptable, and I hear very clearly what she says about her constituency of Bath. That is why the neighbourhood policing model that this Labour Government stood on at the general election is so important for starting to deal with shop theft, which—as we have just been talking about—has become an epidemic.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

The Home Secretary has repeatedly reiterated her pledge to tackle shoplifting and violence against shop workers by having a named officer in each community, as part of the 13,000 uplift for neighbourhood policing. I spoke to Cambridgeshire constabulary recently, which confirmed that under the Home Secretary’s plans there would be one police officer to cover the whole town of St Ives. That officer would cover not only St Ives, but the town of Ramsey and all the villages in between—Woodhurst, Old Hurst, Pidley, Warboys, Wistow and Bury. Last week, the Policing Minister would not commit to reviewing the police allocation formula to ensure Cambridgeshire receives its fair share of funding. How can one officer be expected to cover such a large area effectively, given that Cambridgeshire is likely to receive only a handful of the officers?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I say gently to the hon. Member that he has to look at what this Government inherited from his Conservative Government after 14 years, during which neighbourhood policing was repeatedly cut. This Government are committed to restoring neighbourhood policing. We have said that we will bring in 13,000 police officers, police community support officers and specials.

[Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con)]

When?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The shadow Home Secretary is shouting “When?” at me. We are working on this as quickly as we can, five months in, after 14 years of what the Conservatives did to our policing.

[James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

Shoplifting is often organised by criminal gangs, and Norfolk police have had some success in fighting them. Does the Minister recognise that partnerships such as Operation Wonderland—which has just been launched by West Norfolk police alongside the local council, CCTV operators, street rangers and shop workers—are key to tackling this crime and making sure offenders are brought to justice?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. Policing alone cannot deal with this crime; we need to work hand in hand with businesses, as well as the trade unions. USDAW has been very important in the campaign for the offence of assaulting a shop worker that we are going to bring in. I have also met the British Retail Consortium, and will chair a regular forum with the retail sector to make sure we are sharing best practice. We are going to deal with the problems we have inherited.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Matt Vickers (Stockton West) (Con)]

One of the best ways to help tackle retail crime is to put more police on the streets. The last Conservative Government did just that—[Interruption.] The last Conservative Government did just that, delivering record numbers of police, with more funding than ever before, but we were not stopping there. This year, the Conservative Government increased frontline police funding by £922 million. Will the Minister commit to matching or even improving that figure next year?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I do not know if it is just amnesia on that side of the House, but I think the Shadow Minister needs to reflect on what we actually inherited: PCSOs cut by 50%, specials down by two thirds and over 20,000 police officers cut under the Conservative Administration. So a little bit of humility about what they have left us with would go down very well.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

5. What recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alice Macdonald (Norwich North) (Lab/Co-op)]

8. What steps her Department is taking to help prevent young people from becoming involved in violent crime.

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

The epidemic of knife crime that has grown over the last decade is devastating families and communities right across the country. That is why this Government have set ourselves an unprecedented mission to halve knife crime over the next 10 years. We are already taking action to get lethal blades off Britain’s streets and taking stronger action against illegal online knife sales. We are also determined to stop young people being drawn into violent crime and county lines in the first place, which is why we are delivering a radical new young futures prevention programme, with targeted interventions to help at risk young people and a network of new youth hubs.

[Alice Macdonald]

I thank the Minister for meeting me recently. As she says, too many young people are being drawn into county lines, suffering exploitation and violence. This is a significant problem across the country, including in Norwich. Many organisations are working hard locally to improve the situation, such as the Joe Dix Foundation, established by his parents after Joe’s tragic murder in 2022. Can the Minister reassure me that the Government are investing all they can in preventive measures and set out what is being done to support organisations on the frontline?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

It was a great pleasure to meet my hon. Friend just last week to discuss this issue. Organisations like the Joe Dix Foundation do amazing work to help keep people safe and keep young people out of county line gangs in particular, and through the Home Office county lines programme we are going after exploitative gangs and providing specialist support for children and young people. Our young futures programme will establish those prevention partnerships in every local authority to identify children and young people at risk.

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

The Minister speaks of the young futures programme. Will she work with the Northern Ireland Executive to put in place the same programmes so that we can prevent young people in Northern Ireland from joining paramilitary organisations, which are nothing more than organised and violent crime organisations?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I can certainly talk to Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office to discuss what we can learn from the proposed programme and the good practice we know exists already in many parts of the UK. We want to build on that so I am very happy to share that.

[Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

9. What steps her Department is taking to help tackle car theft in rural areas.

[Mr Speaker]

Who wants to answer this one?

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

Sorry, Mr Speaker. These questions are like buses—they all come along at once.

Vehicle theft is a deeply distressing and damaging crime which can have a detrimental effect on both individuals and businesses, including in rural communities. That is why we are working closely with both the police and the automotive industry to ensure the most robust responses possible to these crimes. Last week I met with the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for vehicle crime to discuss this issue and how we can better work together to prevent it.

[Dr Tidball]

An increase in car and van thefts and antisocial behaviour in Stocksbridge, Deepcar, High Green, Chapeltown and Dodworth has left my constituents feeling vulnerable and unsafe. Local people have also experienced excessive 999 response times. How is the Minister tackling the rise in vehicle thefts, working with manufacturers to improve vehicle safety and supporting South Yorkshire police after years of Conservative cuts?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am pleased that this question is being asked, and it is important to note that this autumn, driven by the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for vehicle crime, the national vehicle crime reduction partnership has been launched, bringing together the police, the Home Office and manufacturers on the very point of how we tackle this problem. We are also committed to bringing forward legislation to ban electronic devices used to steal vehicles, empowering the police and courts to target those criminals using, manufacturing and supplying them.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

That was a welcome answer from the Minister. Farmers in Wiltshire complain not just about car theft, which is endemic, but wider agricultural theft, too, and the terrible scourge of hare coursing. It is all bound up in serious organised crime. Does the Minister recognise the seriousness of organised rural crime of this nature, and what steps is she taking to address it?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I recently met the Agricultural Engineers Association to discuss the implementation of the Equipment Theft (Prevention) Act 2023, which he will know is important in tackling some of that rural crime with agricultural equipment that has been stolen, often by organised gangs. There is work ongoing on this, and the issue is recognised by the Home Office.

[Jake Richards (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

10. What steps her Department is taking to increase public trust and confidence in policing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Luke Taylor (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

We all want to stop criminals terrorising our communities, whether they are domestic abusers or shoplifters targeting our high streets. Live facial recognition is being rolled out by our police forces, including on Sutton High Street in my constituency, but we cannot ignore the risks that this technology presents. Facial recognition systems are most likely to misidentify black people and women, doing nothing to stop crime and further eroding trust in our police. Will the Minister introduce clear regulation oversight of live facial recognition, such as that which the EU passed last April?

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

This is another area where the new incoming Labour Government are having to look at powers and measures brought in by the previous Government. Live facial recognition can have very positive effects, but we need to consider whether we need a framework around it. That is why I will be hosting a series of roundtables before Christmas to discuss with stakeholders the way forward on this technology.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steff Aquarone (North Norfolk) (LD)]

What steps is the Minister taking to tackle crime in rural areas?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

As I said earlier, I have met representatives of the Agricultural Engineers Association to discuss the implementation of the secondary legislation that is required to deal with the theft of agricultural equipment, and I am also having meetings with the rural crime units to discuss some of the specifics. However, the neighbourhood policing guarantee applies in rural areas just as much as in urban areas, which is important.

[Jessica Toale (Bournemouth West) (Lab)]

T8. My constituent Tracy set up the organisation Changes Are Made in memory of her grandson Cameron Hamilton, who was fatally stabbed in Bournemouth town centre last year. Tracy believes deeply in the power of education and positive activities to tackle knife crime, and is campaigning for a youth hub in the constituency. Can the Home Secretary update us on the progress being made towards the roll-out of a network of youth hubs, and will she support Tracy’s campaign?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Peter Bedford (Mid Leicestershire) (Con)]

A report published today shows that 60,000 hours are taken up each year investigating non-crime hate incidents. Does the Minister agree that confidence in the police could be restored if they prioritised their time and resources to investigate actual crime rather than hurt feelings?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

This Government have made very clear what our priorities are around safer streets and where the focus should be for policing: on halving knife crime and halving violence against women and girls over the next decade. The Home Secretary has also been very clear that a common-sense approach must be taken to non-crime hate incidents. We will work with the inspectorate and the College of Policing on the matter.

Police Reform

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Lisa Smart (Hazel Grove) (LD)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on police reform.

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

I will respond on behalf of the Secretary of State, and I thank the hon. Lady for securing this important question on what is an important subject.

At its best, policing in England and Wales is truly world class. Every day, officers perform their duties with courage, skill and dedication, and we are all grateful to all of them. At the heart of our British policing tradition is the notion of policing by consent, which is dependent on maintaining mutual bonds of trust between officers and the local communities they serve. But over the last decade or more policing has faced a perfect storm as visible neighbourhood policing has been decimated, as law enforcement has struggled to keep up with fast-changing crimes, as outdated technology has held forces back, and as confidence has fallen in communities and among victims because far too often people feel that if something goes wrong no one will come and nothing will be done.

For too long, instead of Government showing leadership and helping the police to navigate these testing times, predecessors in our Department have just walked away. This Government will not stand on the sidelines while public confidence and public safety are put at risk, and that is why we are pursuing our unprecedented safer streets mission to reduce the most serious violence and to rebuild confidence in policing and the criminal justice system.

To successfully deliver that mission, we need forces that are fit for the challenge of today and tomorrow. That is why the Home Secretary yesterday announced a programme of police reform that will be pursued in partnership with policing. Under our neighbourhood policing guarantee, we will restore patrols to town centres and rebuild the vital link between forces and the people they serve. To drive up performance and standards, a new performance unit will be established in the Home Office which will use high-quality police data to spot trends and improve performance and consistency. And we will work with policing to create a national centre of policing to bring together crucial support services such as IT, aviation and forensics. We will present a White Paper on police reform to Parliament next year.

The 2025-26 police funding settlement for police forces, including full details on Government grant funding and precept, will be set out to Parliament in the normal way before Christmas, but the Home Secretary confirmed in her written statement yesterday that, as part of that settlement, direct central Government funding for policing next year will increase by £0.5 billion. That is core grant and additional funding for neighbourhood policing, counter-terrorism and the National Crime Agency.

We are at a critical juncture for policing and we cannot go on as we have been. So together with the police we will embark on this road map for reform, to get back to those precious Peel principles and to rebuild the confidence of our communities in the vital work the police do every day to keep us all safe.

[Lisa Smart]

I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for granting this urgent question.

Yesterday the Home Secretary announced significant reforms to policing through a written statement. A comprehensive restructuring of policing in England and Wales that will affect thousands of personnel, create a new performance unit and establish a national centre for policing surely merits some parliamentary scrutiny and an opportunity for Members of this House to question what it means for their constituents.

For my Hazel Grove constituents, what does it mean for Mellor, the most rural part of my constituency? There was no specific mention of rural crime in the Home Secretary’s statement, so I ask the Minister what her plans mean for those tackling crime in our rural communities. What do the plans mean for places like Woodley, a district centre in Hazel Grove, which has seen far too much antisocial behaviour and shoplifting? And what do the plans mean for places like Offerton, where illegal off-road bikes are causing havoc on our roads? How will the plans better encourage the police to work with local partners to tackle this problem, which blights so many people’s lives? Any police reform must address the Conservatives’ cuts to the number of police community support officers, who are so often the face of proper neighbourhood policing. My police force, Greater Manchester, has seen more than 350 PCSO positions cut since 2015.

More than anything, we need to ensure that the reforms deliver the proper frontline policing that our communities deserve. Years of ineffective resourcing by the previous Conservative Government have left our police forces overstretched, under-resourced and unable to focus on the crimes that affect our communities the most. It is no wonder that the vast majority of burglaries still go unsolved, while for seven out of 10 car thefts last year, a police officer did not even attend the scene.

It is genuinely good to hear that more resources will be committed to neighbourhood policing, but as we saw with the Conservatives’ police uplift programme, more resources does not automatically mean that communities will see the difference. I would welcome assurances from the Minister that the Government will ensure that officers have the time and resources to focus on their communities, and will ensure more bobbies on the beat.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I very much welcome the hon. Lady’s interest in this area. The written ministerial statement laid before Parliament yesterday set out the direction of travel for this Government on police reform. As I said in my response to the urgent question, a White Paper will be published in the spring. There will be full consultation with, I hope, parliamentary colleagues as well as those involved in policing, police and crime commissioners, and all the key stakeholders. This is the start of the process, so many of the hon. Lady’s questions will be part of the consultation and the conversations that we have next year, but I reassure her that the safer streets mission is about the neighbourhood policing guarantee. It is about delivering 13,000 additional police officers, PCSOs and specials in our neighbourhoods and reinvigorating the neighbourhood policing model.

The hon. Lady mentioned antisocial behaviour and shoplifting. Those are issues that we will deal with, and we will bring forward legislation, particularly around shop theft. That will include a stand-alone offence of assaulting a shopworker, and the removal of the £200 threshold that the previous Government introduced, which meant that there was almost a shoplifters’ charter—they could steal up to £200-worth of items and there would be no action. We are getting rid of that. We are taking action now, but we will have a conversation about broader police reform next year. The statement was about setting out the direction of travel.

[Shaun Davies (Telford) (Lab)]

On Friday, I spent some time on patrol with Telford police, and Sergeant Alex Webb told me about her frustration at not being able to get repeat antisocial behaviour offenders out of our town centres and high streets. When will the Government give the police the tools that they need to deal with these issues and get the yobs out of our high streets and town centres?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. This is Antisocial Behaviour Awareness Week, which aims to focus on the effect that antisocial behaviour can have on individuals and communities. He is absolutely right to say that we need to tackle antisocial behaviour. That is why the neighbourhood policing guarantee, which will get officers back on the streets, and the other measures that we will introduce to keep our town centres and high streets safe, are so important. We will bring those forward in due course.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con)]

Let me welcome the Policing Minister to her role; she is succeeding me in the job that I did in the last Government. I genuinely wish her well in the job, and I hope that she succeeds in it, because it is important for the whole country. I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in thanking the police up and down the country for the work that they do to keep us safe. When they put on their uniform to go to work each morning, they take risks that are required of those in few other professions.

In March this year, the police headcount hit 149,769—a record number of police, and 3,000 higher than the previous record. My first question is: will the Policing Minister commit to at least maintaining, if not growing, that record number of police officers? Secondly, will the Minister join me in welcoming the fact that in the past seven years, overall crime, as measured by the crime survey for England and Wales—the Office for National Statistics says that is the best measure of crime trends—has come down by 17%? The written statement yesterday, and the Home Secretary’s speech to the National Police Chiefs’ Council yesterday, mentioned the importance of technology, which I feel very strongly about, as the Minister knows. In the March Budget, the previous Chancellor committed to £230 million of spending on police technology over four years, of which this year is the first. About £80 million was due to be spent this year. Will the right hon. Lady confirm that the £80 million for this year is secure, and that she and her colleagues will honour the £230 million commitment over the coming four years?

Does the Minister agree that it is important that police spend their time actually investigating crime, not policing thought? Does she agree that the guidelines need to be changed, so that police spend time investigating only real crimes, and investigate non-crimes only when there is a real and imminent risk of criminality? That would mean a change to the guidelines. Will she make that change?

On the reform programme, we need to see the details of course, but will the Minister confirm that no money will be taken away from local police forces? Will she confirm that police and crime commissioners and chief constables will continue to be fully empowered? Finally, on police funding, she mentioned some numbers for next year’s funding settlement. She will be aware that when I was Policing Minister, we arranged a £922 million increase in funding for frontline policing for this financial year, compared with last year. The numbers she talked about in her statement are much lower than that, so will she give a commitment that any funding increase for frontline policing that she brings forward in the police funding settlement will be at least as big as the one that I announced last year?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

This is the first opportunity I have had to welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his new role as shadow Home Secretary, but I think he might be forgetting a few facts. As I recall, over the previous 14 years, the Conservative Government slashed policing by over 20,000 police officers, and many support staff as well. I acknowledge that the uplift programme was brought in at the end of their period in government, but they got rid of a lot of very experienced, good police officers. Also, just to remind him, we stood for election on a manifesto commitment to providing 13,000 additional police officers, PCSOs and specials as part of our neighbourhood policing guarantee.

I know that the right hon. Gentleman is very keen on technology. That was absolutely one of the things that he focused on. I have certainly taken up some of the issues that he was concerned about to do with live facial recognition, and I want that investment to continue. I think he is again forgetting a few things when he refers to the guidelines for non-crime hate incidents. As I recall, he was the Policing Minister who introduced those guidelines. I have listened to what he said, but I think he needs to remember what he actually did when he was the Policing Minister. I take the approach that this should be about common sense and consistency. His Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services talked about the need for consistency and training; I will listen to what it has to say, rather than to the right hon. Gentleman’s view on guidelines that he introduced. Many of the questions that he asks will form part of the consultative approach that we will adopt when our White Paper is laid before Parliament.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

My constituents tell me that they are particularly worried about antisocial behaviour, and that they want guaranteed police patrols. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is what this Government intend to deliver?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I very much welcome that question from my hon. Friend and neighbour in Kingston upon Hull. He is absolutely right to say that the neighbourhood policing guarantee will include designated police officers, PCSOs and specials who will patrol neighbourhoods. There will be a named officer that people can go to if there are problems around antisocial behaviour. We will also bring forward respect orders, which will deal with the people who are engaging most persistently in antisocial behaviour; they can stop them being in particular neighbourhoods or even put conditions on them—for example, if they have an alcohol problem, they may have to get treatment and help for that problem. But he is absolutely right to say that antisocial behaviour is a big issue for many of our constituents.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Select Committee, Dame Karen Bradley.

[Dame Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)]

I welcome the Government’s announcements on neighbourhood policing. We have already seen a real move in this direction in Staffordshire, under the leadership of the police, fire and crime commissioner, Ben Adams, and our chief constable Chris Noble, so I very much welcome what the Minister has said. She will know, however, that the National Audit Office has raised concerns about the experience of officers when it comes to neighbourhood policing. What work will she do to ensure that officers have the right degree of experience, so that their effectiveness at neighbourhood policing is maximised?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Can I take this opportunity to welcome the new Chair of the Home Affairs Committee? Chairing it is one of the very best jobs in Parliament. On neighbourhood policing, I recognise that there is good practice around the country, with certain police forces doing it very well indeed, but she is absolutely right to say that we want to equip our neighbourhood police officers with the best training, to enable them to do a really good job for their communities. That is why we have already announced money for the College of Policing to engage with neighbourhood police officers and give them the training that they deserve, particularly in problem solving, because that is a really important part of the role that they will play in neighbourhoods.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

To deliver effective policing, we need reform, but police officers also need to feel that they have our support. Does the Minister agree that agreeing the recommendations of the pay review body is a key part of delivering that support? What view does she have about those, including Conservative Members, who would prefer not to agree those recommendations, and on the impact that would have on police morale?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to support our police officers in the work that they do to keep us all safe, day in, day out. He will know that this year we accepted the recommendations of the pay review body, and that additional funding was provided to police forces to pay for an increase in salaries. It is important that we continue to ensure that our police are properly remunerated for the difficult job that they do. The Home Secretary has made that clear in her support for police officers.

[Anna Sabine (Frome and East Somerset) (LD)]

Farmers in my constituency tell me that they are often the victims of serious rural crime, including threats of physical violence, but do not usually bother to report it because they do not think our rural police forces are well enough resourced to give a full response. If that is happening across the country, presumably it means that rural crime is seriously under-reported. What more does the Minister plan to do to resource our rural crime teams, and to give farmers and others living in rural areas reassurance that they can and should report crime?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Lady is exactly right. We need to make sure that when crime happens, it is reported. That is absolutely vital. As I said in my opening remarks, for too long people have felt that it is not worth reporting a crime because no one will come and nothing will be done. Our neighbourhood policing guarantee is not just about urban areas; it also covers rural areas, and we want rural communities to have the support that they need from police, PCSOs and specials. I am also responsible for rural crime, and I know that there is a range of issues that we need to look at again, including the theft of agricultural machinery; that is an area that I am particularly focused on.

[Luke Myer (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

Just last night, Guisborough Town FC in my constituency suffered a break-in and burglary. I am grateful to Cleveland police for responding, and for meeting me this morning to update me on the situation, but there simply are not enough of them on the streets. Can the Minister give me an assurance that this Government will prioritise frontline, visible, neighbourhood community policing once again?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Yes, I can. I pay tribute to Cleveland police, which has made great progress in recent times.

[Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

Will the Minister include references to fraud in her White Paper? Action Fraud, which would be more accurately described as “Inaction Fraud,” is presiding over a complete failure to do anything, particularly about fraud against online retailers. Can we ensure that action is taken to help victims of fraud?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I reassure the hon. Gentleman that my noble Friend Lord Hanson, the Lords Minister, is looking at this. I gently point out that, in relation to fraud, we are having to deal with our inheritance from the previous Administration. We will now look at some of the problems with Action Fraud that they did not deal with.

[Alison Hume (Scarborough and Whitby) (Lab)]

The latest crime figures show that shoplifting has shot up to a 20-year high, knife crime has risen yet again and violence against women and girls remains shamefully and persistently high. Does the Minister agree that this shows the last Tory Government’s disgraceful dereliction on law and order?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend puts it well. This is why our safer streets mission has the ambitious aim to halve violence against women and girls over the next decade, to halve knife crime over the next decade, to restore neighbourhood policing and to restore confidence in the criminal justice system.

[Caroline Voaden (South Devon) (LD)]

The Liberal Democrats have long campaigned for proper neighbourhood policing, so we welcome this announcement. Sadly, I have heard at first hand the concern and fear of one community in Dartmouth, following a police decision to redeploy a local sergeant who had spent a couple of years building positive relationships and trust with the local community, particularly on antisocial behaviour and drug dealing. Can the Minister clarify how the neighbourhood policing guarantee will be implemented and how the Home Office plans to ensure that communities have consistent and long-term access to a known, named officer who will remain in the community?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I gently point out that the Liberal Democrats were part of the coalition Government, and that through those years of austerity, we saw major cuts to police officers, including neighbourhood police officers. However, I take her point. That is why we have the neighbourhood policing guarantee, and it is why we will have 13,000 additional police officers, PCSOs and specials. People will be able to go to a named police officer if they have problems in their area, as she requests. As I said earlier, we want to make sure that neighbourhood police officers are properly trained and that this is seen as a very important part of policing, so that officers want to stay in neighbourhood policing for longer.

[Connor Naismith (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab)]

My constituents in Nantwich often report experiencing unacceptable antisocial behaviour at night, particularly linked to the night-time economy, so I welcome the Government’s plan to introduce zero-tolerance zones and respect orders to get a grip of the antisocial behaviour that the last Government allowed to run out of control. Will the Minister say a little more about how this will help my constituents?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

All Members will know that antisocial behaviour can blight communities and can cause real problems to individuals and families. This week is Antisocial Behaviour Awareness Week, and I was struck by Resolve’s statistic that one in seven householders is thinking about moving because of antisocial behaviour. That is really shocking, and our respect orders and neighbourhood policing reforms will start to address the antisocial behaviour that has blighted many of our communities for too long.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The Minister has outlined the lack of confidence in police services across the United Kingdom because of the failure to deal with real crimes such as burglary, shoplifting and antisocial behaviour. At the same time, we learn that three police forces have spent a year investigating a tweet by a columnist after a report from someone in Holland. Surely, if there is to be reform, one thing we should do is tell the police that they are no longer the thought police. They are meant to be dealing with crime. If that means changing the bad law introduced by the last Government, will the Minister make sure it is done so that we do not have any more of this nonsense?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The right hon. Gentleman is right that this Government are prioritising the crimes that affect communities and individuals, such as the increasing antisocial behaviour, threats and knife-enabled robbery. Those are the things that people care about, and those are the things that our safer streets mission is designed to deal with.

In answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question, it is worth reflecting that the provisions on non-crime hate incidents came out of the Macpherson inquiry following the murder of Stephen Lawrence. That recommendation was about providing an intelligence picture for police officers. It may not be a crime, but the intelligence picture might benefit from knowing about it. It is worth reflecting on that. Of course, I want consistency and common sense in such investigations and, as I said earlier, the inspectorate has also highlighted the need for consistency and training because of the confusion about the guidelines issued by the previous Government. I am happy to look at that with the College of Policing to make sure we get it right, but there is a place for it in some circumstances.

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

Residents living around Wilmot Park in west Dartford continue to be plagued by antisocial behaviour, including vandalism, the use of motorbikes in green spaces, noise and threatening behaviour. As part of their safer streets mission, will the Government use police reform to ensure that such crimes are prioritised in Dartford and across the country?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I want the police to be getting on with this now, and they have powers they can use to deal with antisocial behaviour, but we want to make sure they have additional officers through the neighbourhood policing guarantee to ensure that they can deal with antisocial behaviour in communities. We have been very clear that the police will be given additional powers to make sure they can seize and destroy the motorbikes and vehicles that are causing nuisance to communities through antisocial behaviour.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Having worked with the right hon. Lady on Committees over a number of years, I am delighted to congratulate her on her appointment. In that spirit, I will make what I think is a helpful suggestion about non-crime hate incidents. Clearly, chief constables have huge discretion over how much effort they put into investigating local crime and non-crime incidents of the sort that she says have a place in the spectrum. Could she perhaps require chief constables to report back to her Department on how many hours their forces spend investigating crime incidents and non-crime incidents? It appears that tens of thousands of non-crime incidents are being investigated every year.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. It has been a great pleasure to work with him on various Committees over the years. He is correct that this is an operational matter. It is for chief constables to decide how they use the resources available to them. My understanding is that very little time is actually spent on non-crime hate incidents, but I will check that with His Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary.

[Mike Tapp (Dover and Deal) (Lab)]

Coming from a policing family, and having served with the National Crime Agency, I am immensely proud of British policing. However, I am equally devastated at the decline overseen by the Conservatives. Can the Minister outline what we are doing to rebuild British policing and return it to being the best in the world?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for his service. We will all benefit from having him in the House, sharing his experience and knowledge. The police reform agenda, as set out in the Home Secretary’s speech and the written ministerial statement yesterday, is about resetting that relationship with the police. We want to work with the police. This is not about doing things to the police, but about working collectively to get the very best police service for this country, for today, tomorrow and the years ahead.

[Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)]

My residents in Boston and Skegness want the police on the streets, preventing antisocial behaviour and crime. They do not want our valuable police resources wasted on monitoring tweets for non-crime hate incidents, threatening and bullying residents, and then that record remaining on a database, which can prevent people from getting a job in the future. It is a complete waste of time. Will the Minister and the Home Office scrap those guidelines as an unnecessary use of valuable time and resources?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

This Government have been very clear about their priorities on policing. In our safer streets mission, we have set out that we will halve violence against women and girls and knife crime over the next decade, we will restore public confidence in the criminal justice system, particularly in the police, and we will introduce neighbourhood policing, which we know to be the bedrock of policing in this country and the area in which most people want to see investment. Those are our priorities, as the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have said, and that is where the focus and attention of the police needs to be.

[Alistair Strathern (Hitchin) (Lab)]

For too long, far too many of my towns and villages have had to endure rising levels of antisocial behaviour, such as people riding unsafe bikes through village centres, and an epidemic of shoplifting, including at my local Morrisons, whose staff I met last month. I am working closely with our local police and crime commissioner, John Tizard, to push for a more robust police response. What reassurances can the Minister give my constituents that our new strategy will ensure that a far greater priority is given to such crimes, and that those crimes will not be tolerated, as they seem to have been far too often in the past?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his work in this important area. This Government are committed to dealing with shop thefts and attacks on retail workers, and we will bring forward legislation in due course. Our safer streets mission focuses on high streets, town centres and communities, so that people feel safe, there is a police presence and antisocial behaviour is not tolerated.

[Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)]

Week in, week out, police officers from my constituency are extracted to go and police protests and events in central London. My constituents and I are proud to live in our great capital city and in a democracy where the right to protest is cherished. However, under the Conservatives, since 2015, the capital city grant has been cut by 17% in real terms. That is the money that should be used to police such protests, not community policing resources, which is what the Metropolitan Police Commissioner is having to draw on. Will the Minister review the capital city grant, so that my constituents can see a bobby on the beat again?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Lady will know that announcements about the provisional police settlement will be made in December in this House. Discussions are under way about exactly the points she raises. I note what she says about the levels of abstraction, which are a concern, but this Government are committed to the 13,000 additional police officers, PCSOs and specials in our neighbourhoods. The Metropolitan police area will benefit from that, as will every other police area.

[Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)]

When I spend time canvassing in my constituency of Harlow, as I often do, residents tell me that they do not see community police officers any more. In 2010, we had over 30 PCSOs for the whole of Harlow, but we now have four. Will the Minister set out how the safer streets mission will make residents in Harlow feel safer?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

It is worth reflecting on the fact that the number of PCSOs has halved in the past 14 years, and the number of specials has reduced by two thirds. Those are shocking figures. We want to ensure that we use PCSOs, because they police neighbourhoods in such a valuable way. Also, I am personally committed to making sure that we see more specials on the beat. People who stand up for the local community and do such work on a voluntary basis are to be commended. I hope that across the House we would all support an extension to the work of specials.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Cambridgeshire constabulary is one of the most poorly funded in the country under the current police allocation formula, which is based on population data from 2012. Cambridgeshire has grown vastly since then and is projected to grow by nearly 20% in the next decade. In order to fulfil the Government’s pledges and ensure neighbourhood officers are not overstretched under her plans, will the Policing Minister commit to reviewing the formula before the forthcoming announcement of the 2025-26 police funding settlement, so that Cambridgeshire receives its fair share of the £0.5 billion increase? Will she explain how many officers, of the 13,000 she mentioned, each force will receive?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The Home Secretary announced yesterday that there will be £0.5 billion of additional funding for policing next year, including money for the core grant and neighbourhood policing. The announcement about the 2025-26 police funding settlement will be made in December in this House, in the normal way.

[Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)]

Antisocial behaviour, fly-tipping, off-road bikes and e-scooters racing along pavements and streets, and an epidemic of shoplifting are all issues raised time and again by my constituents across all wards of Portsmouth North. Does the Minister agree that we need police officers back on the beat in local communities, equipped with tougher powers to crack down on these crimes, to not only make the people of Portsmouth feel safer, but to get pride back in our communities?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend puts her point incredibly well. That is why we have the safer streets mission, and why we will have those police officers, PCSOs and special constables back in our communities, policing for the vast majority of law-abiding citizens and dealing with the antisocial behaviour that has blighted communities for too long.

[David Chadwick (Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe) (LD)]

In 2012, I was run over by a car in the Netherlands. I woke up in hospital several days later, with some fairly severe injuries. I am thankful that the resulting police investigation was swift and efficient. Unfortunately, that is not the case for such incidents in the UK, because forensic collision units across the country are facing severe challenges in preparing cases, resulting in large delays to trials and ultimately to justice, prolonging the agony for impacted families. What is the Department doing to help the police tackle those resourcing challenges and ensure road traffic collision cases come to a swifter conclusion?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am sorry to hear about the accident that the hon. Gentleman suffered in 2012, and I hope he has made a full recovery. On his specific point, I will go away and ask my officials about that, and about what more we can do to ensure justice is done on road collisions and that cases go to court quickly.

[Mark Ferguson (Gateshead Central and Whickham) (Lab)]

I am often contacted by businesses from across Gateshead Central and Whickham complaining about high street crime. A recent spate of crimes on Low Fell high street has left some businesses potentially having to close. With shop thefts up 40% in the past year alone, what will these very welcome measures do to lower crime on our high streets?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. High streets are the lifeblood of our local communities. We want to ensure they are as safe as possible, and that businesses are not suffering losses through shop thefts and assaults on their workers. Our package of measures will deal with antisocial behaviour, put in place the neighbourhood policing guarantee, allow new prosecutions under the legislation we will introduce about assaults on retail workers, and get rid of the £200 threshold for shop theft cases to go forward. One approach will not solve the problems, so we will ensure we have a whole package of measures to make high streets, neighbourhoods and communities safer and to allow businesses to thrive. We need businesses to thrive so that they can pay their taxes, and we can invest that money back into public services.

[Nick Timothy (West Suffolk) (Con)]

Two years ago, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner said that 3,000 officers were not deployable for reasons of physical fitness, and 500 officers were not deployable for reasons of misconduct allegations: that is more than 10% of the Met’s headcount. Will the Minister tell us the latest numbers? Does she plan to make it easier for chief constables, as they have requested, to fire underperforming officers?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I can write to the hon. Gentleman with the figures, but clearly, there have been issues with the Metropolitan police over the last 14 years and I know that the current commissioner has raised concerns about the procedures for getting rid of police officers.

[Nick Timothy]

You’re in charge now.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I have been the Policing Minister for five months, compared with the 14 years that those on his side of the House were responsible for policing. I did not see any action then on dealing with the issues that he raises with me.

I can guarantee that this Government will be looking at the workforce and making sure that we recruit the right people into policing and vet police officers throughout their careers. Because of the shocking cases that we have seen—David Carrick and others—we will take action, which we set out in our manifesto, to have a workforce that is fit for purpose. I know the hon. Gentleman is very new in this place, but he needs to remember the legacy that his Government and his party delivered to us when we arrived in July.

[Mr Mark Sewards (Leeds South West and Morley) (Lab)]

Whenever I speak with residents, business leaders or their staff in my constituency, they all tell me the same thing. Whether it is the staff at Wortley ASDA who have to deal with persistent shoplifting, or the stallholders at Morley market who tell me that they have to deal with crime on the high street in Morley, they all tell me that the police do not turn up and that they never see police patrols in our communities any more. Can the Minister confirm that we will return to neighbourhood policing, that we will see police on our streets patrolling again and that we will have named police officers turn up when things go wrong?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; that is the experience that many Members of Parliament will encounter when they talk to their constituents, who feel that there is no point in reporting things because nothing will happen and no one will come. That is why the neighbourhood policing guarantee is so important. We will have those police officers, PCSOs and specials back on our streets. That visible presence will be there, so I can absolutely say that that is part of our safer streets mission and that is what we will deliver.

[Tessa Munt (Wells and Mendip Hills) (LD)]

May I associate myself with the comments made by my hon. Friends the Members for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) and for Frome and East Somerset (Anna Sabine), particularly in relation to things like rural crime, car racing, bike racing, threatening behaviour, burglary and shoplifting, and the frustration that people feel with the delays and lack of response and with things such as camera footage, which is taken every day, not being used? That frustration is, none the less, absolutely dwarfed by the frustration of the fact that the previous Avon and Somerset police and crime commissioner had 28.5 full-time equivalent members of staff and a massive budget. My constituents have no idea how that is justified when what they want is police officers. Can the Minister please make sure that her review actually includes getting a grip on what is happening in PCC offices?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Lady will have an opportunity, when the White Paper is published, to make her and her constituents’ views clear. Clearly, there will be questions around the different roles—the Home Secretary’s role, the PCC role and chief constables’ operationally independent role—and that will be part of the discussion and debate around how we take forward the White Paper and the recommendations that come out of it.

[Luke Taylor (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

I thank Mr Speaker for granting this urgent question on a subject that is on the minds of so many of my constituents. Stalking is a form of psychological violence that remains severely underreported. I have met constituents who are victims of stalking, and they have shared with me the lack of support they feel they receive from the Metropolitan police. They live in constant terror and anxiety, even after taking the brave step of reporting the offences. Will the Minister outline what steps her Department is taking to work with the Metropolitan police to ensure that officers receive proper training to identify stalking, support and protect victims and take robust action against perpetrators?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s question; I am really concerned to hear what he is saying. The safeguarding Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Yardley (Jess Phillips), is dealing with the issue of stalking and I know she feels very strongly about that. It might be helpful if the hon. Gentleman wrote to her, and I will certainly raise the matter with her. We may need to feed in the experiences the hon. Gentleman mentions to make sure the Metropolitan police are doing everything they need to to support victims of stalking who bravely come forward.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is always a pleasure to see the right hon. Lady—she has moved from the Back Benches to the Front Bench and is doing equally good work.

I welcome the safer streets programme and the enhancement of community policing. Can the Minister outline how there can be a UK-wide drive in addressing the money lending and drug warfare that blights all our communities throughout the United Kingdom? I am thinking of paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland and criminal gangs in the UK mainland that work together and share their criminal activities. What opportunity will there be within police reform to discuss how we can work alongside the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland and the Police Service of Northern Ireland? We can do better together.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

It is always a pleasure to be questioned by the hon. Member. When I chaired the Home Affairs Committee, we produced a report on drugs and we went to look at drug problems in Belfast and in Northern Ireland. I was struck by the particular issues there around the involvement of paramilitaries. It would be helpful if the hon. Gentleman and I could have a conversation about what more we can do on that issue when we look at the broader safer streets mission.

Ninja Swords

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

As part of the Government’s aim to halve knife crime within a decade, we have a manifesto commitment to ban ninja swords and we will be making the relevant changes in secondary legislation. In preparation for this, today we are launching a public consultation to seek views on the legal definition of ninja swords and any associated defences to help with the planned legislation.

The consultation will run for a four-week period and provides an opportunity for the public to have their say.

A copy of the consultation and related options assessment will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses and published on gov.uk.

[HCWS213]

Facial Recognition: Police Use

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Siobhain. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) on securing this important debate. I am grateful to him and all other right hon. and hon. Members who have made thoughtful and insightful contributions this morning.

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp) on his new role. When he held the role that I now hold, he was very passionate about this subject. That passion is demonstrated today by the number of interventions he has made and by his contribution in defence of the previous Government’s approach to this particular policy. Now that we have seen the shadow Home Secretary in a Westminster Hall debate on this issue, I very much hope that we might see him here again when we debate the many other policing issues that we have to deal with, including police reform and police accountability—the list goes on.

This has been a very good debate. We have ranged from discussing the Jason Bourne films to a night out with my hon. Friend the Member for Brent East (Dawn Butler). We have also had excellent contributions from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham and Brixton Hill (Bell Ribeiro-Addy), the hon. Members for Leicester South (Shockat Adam), for Brighton Pavilion (Siân Berry), for South Basildon and East Thurrock (James McMurdock), for Dewsbury and Batley (Iqbal Mohamed) and for Birmingham Perry Barr (Ayoub Khan), and the Liberal Democrat Front-Bench spokesperson, the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Bobby Dean).

I will deal with the complex issues that Members have set out so eloquently. At the heart of the issue is the fact that we are dealing with a powerful technology that has the potential to be transformational for policing. However, some have very legitimate concerns about it, including misidentification, misuse and the effect on human rights and individual privacy. I agree wholeheartedly that we need a proper, informed debate on the subject, both in this House and with the public, and I am pleased that we have had the opportunity to start that today.

Let me quickly run through the current use and benefits of live facial recognition, which, as we have discussed, allows the police to spot people in crowds. It uses live video footage of crowds passing a camera and compares their images to a specific watchlist of people wanted by the police. As well as Essex police, who we have heard about, the Metropolitan police and South Wales police have been using this technology for a number of years. In fact, as the shadow Home Secretary said, I was due to go and see one of the deployments this morning, but then this debate was scheduled, so I am going to see it for myself this afternoon instead.

I am told by the Metropolitan police that between January and November this year they made over 460 arrests as a result of live facial recognition deployments, including for offences such as rape, domestic abuse, knife crime and violent robbery. In addition, over 45 registered sex offenders have been arrested for breaching their conditions. South Wales police tell me that between January and November, they deployed live facial recognition locally on 20 occasions, resulting in 12 arrests. They also located a high-risk missing young girl, who they were able to safeguard from child sexual exploitation and criminal exploitation. Essex police, as the right hon. Member for Maldon has attested, have also had considerable success in their use of this technology.

The potential of live facial recognition to contribute to our safer streets mission is clear. It could make our streets safer for us all, particularly for women and girls, by helping the police to identify wanted people quickly and accurately. It could also save precious police time. Rapid advances in the technology and improvements in the accuracy of algorithms increase that potential.

Let me consider the concerns that have been raised. I was pleased to hear that the right hon. Member for Maldon was impressed by the strict limit that Essex police have put on their use of live facial recognition. That includes use of the narrowly drawn watchlist and the immediate deletion of images. However, I note his worries about the lack of a specific legal framework for the technology’s use. It is therefore important to be clear that facial recognition is covered by data protection, equality and human rights law as well as common law powers and detailed guidance from the College of Policing. However, the right hon. Member is right that no one specific law gives the police the power to use live facial recognition.

The Ada Lovelace Institute, an independent research institution with a mission to ensure that data and AI work for people and society, has written to the Home Secretary to express similar concerns to those of the right hon. Member. It believes that the only way to scale up those technologies safely and successfully is through the introduction of a statutory regulatory framework. I have spoken to senior police leaders about the matter, and some believe that the lack of a specific legal framework inhibits their use of the technology and dampens willingness to innovate.

With legal challenges highly likely, it is not surprising that some police forces are reluctant to use the technology. However, others in policing are keen to emphasise the safeguards that are already in place. For example, they assure me that the police do not keep the biometric data of people filmed during live facial recognition deployments, that watchlists are bespoke and that the police deploy the technology only when there is an intelligence case for doing that. I have also been assured that there will always be a human being in the loop to decide whether to apprehend someone. That would never be done solely on the basis of a match made by a computer.

Privacy campaign groups have a long-standing interest in the subject. I am aware of their concerns, as well as previous and ongoing legal actions relating to police use of live facial recognition technology. Potential bias in the algorithms used for live facial recognition systems is another frequently raised concern. Questions have been asked today about that very point and whether live facial recognition discriminates against people on the grounds of gender or race. I am also aware that 65 Members of Parliament and peers signed an open letter last year that called for a ban on live facial recognition, and that in January the House of Lords Justice and Home Affairs Committee sent the then Home Secretary a report raising concerns and making recommendations about live facial recognition.

I remind Members that the Government have been in post for five months. Let us put that in the context of the previous 14 years of Conservative Administrations. The Government want to take time to listen and to think carefully about the concerns that have been raised and about how we can best enable the police to use live facial recognition in a way that secures and maintains public confidence.

As we have heard today, facial recognition technology is a powerful tool. In considering its current and future use, we must balance privacy concerns with the expectation that we place on the police to keep our streets safe. We particularly need to consider how much support the police may require from Government and Parliament to set and manage the rules for using technologies such as facial recognition. We must think about how we protect the public from potential misuse of those technologies, and we need to consider how the application of the rules and regulations is scrutinised.

I am therefore committed to a programme of engagement in the coming months to inform that thinking. Building on initial conversations with police, I will hold a series of roundtables, for example, with regulators and civil society groups before the end of the year. I look forward to hearing at first hand from a broad range of parties on the subject.

I am running out of time. I want to say much more on this issue, and I want to confirm that money is being spent this year on the roll-out of the live facial recognition vans that are being equipped to carry out this work. There is a full evaluation of that work going on. I very much look forward to the House having further opportunities to debate the issue in the coming weeks and months.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Weapons: Illegal Digital Content and Senior Executive Liability

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

As part of this Government’s aim to halve knife crime within a decade, the Government have a manifesto commitment to establish personal liability measures on senior executives of online platforms and marketplaces that fail to take action to remove illegal content relating to knives and offensive weapons. Today we are launching a consultation to test views on how this commitment will be implemented in new legislation.

The consultation will run for a four-week period and provides an opportunity for the public to have their say.

A copy of the consultation and related options assessment will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses and published on gov.uk.

[HCWS212]

Antisocial Behaviour: Leyton and Wanstead

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey) on securing this important debate and on his excellent speech. He is already demonstrating that he will be a doughty champion for his constituents, and I very much look forward to working with him and discussing this important topic over the months ahead.

I know my hon. Friend’s constituency a little and have spent a bit of time there. I know what an attractive part of east London it is, with many shops, restaurants and bars and a strong and vibrant community, so it is really concerning to hear what he says about the levels of antisocial behaviour. It is absolutely right that that is put in the context of 14 years of under-investment in local councils and public services.

Antisocial behaviour affects all our constituencies and has far-reaching consequences. It was good to hear the experiences of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my hon. Friend the Member for Reading Central (Matt Rodda)—this is happening in everyone’s constituency.

I want to start by saying unequivocally that any form of antisocial behaviour is unacceptable. It is not merely a low-level nuisance; it hits the poorest and most vulnerable communities hardest. If left unchecked, it leads to far more serious offending, which is why cracking down on antisocial behaviour is a top priority for this Government and a key part of our safer streets mission. This Government will ensure that we restore public trust in policing and local partners to tackle antisocial behaviour and create real, impactful change.

I turn to recent trends in antisocial behaviour. The crime survey for England and Wales shows that in the year ending March 2024, 35% of respondents personally witnessed or experienced antisocial behaviour in their local area. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead described in reference to his area, that includes groups hanging around on the streets, vehicle-related ASB and people using or dealing drugs. Those were the most common types of antisocial behaviour reported. Sadly, that figure has gradually risen by 7% in the past decade. We must aim to reduce those statistics significantly through the consistent joined-up work of police and local partners. I was pleased to hear about the local leadership provided by the police and the council in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and how that was working well.

As my hon. Friend will know, this Government have committed to five core missions that seek to address some of the fundamental challenges society will face over the next 10 years. The safer streets mission will tackle serious crime: it will halve violence against women and girls, halve knife crime, and restore confidence in policing and the criminal justice system. It is focused on addressing both harm and confidence in parallel, by taking a whole-system approach.

Tackling antisocial behaviour is at the heart of the safer streets mission. It will rebuild confidence through the investment in neighbourhood police officers, who will be at the forefront of the fight against antisocial behaviour. The past decade has seen a decline in neighbourhood policing to such an extent that many of the bonds of trust and respect between the police and local communities have sadly been lost. We are going to bring back neighbourhood policing, ensuring that thousands of additional officers are out patrolling in our town centres and communities as part of our mission to make the streets safer.

Through the new neighbourhood policing guarantee, we will ensure every community has a named police officer to turn to. We also want to ensure neighbourhood policing is protected. I note very carefully what my hon. Friend said about levels of abstraction and how that can affect neighbourhood policing. We recognise that no single agency can reduce antisocial behaviour alone. Achieving the goal we have set ourselves will rely on the police, local authorities, charities and the health service working effectively together. There are lots of examples across the country where that already happens. Agencies at the local level are best placed to understand what is driving the behaviours in question and the impact it is having, and to determine the most appropriate response.

We will legislate to ensure that antisocial behaviour powers are as effective as they need to be to tackle repeat offending. I reflect on the fact that under the coalition Government we saw a downgrading in the antisocial behaviour powers available to the police and councils. My hon. Friend talked about the Government’s plans to introduce respect orders to help ensure that persistent adult antisocial behaviour offenders are banned from public areas where they are causing harm to communities. These changes are long overdue. I look forward to further addressing the House about respect orders in the months to come.

I want to talk about victims of antisocial behaviour and refer to the recently published report by the Victims’ Commissioner, Baroness Newlove, called “Still Living a Nightmare”. The helpful and insightful report looked at the experiences of victims of persistent antisocial behaviour, and highlighted a number of recommendations for the Government, including on improving the identification of persistent antisocial behaviour, support for victims and improved utilisation of the antisocial behaviour case review.

As we know, the case review gives victims the right to request a review of their case and brings agencies together to take a joined-up approach to finding a solution for the victim. It is vital that we enhance collaboration and communication between statutory agencies to create a holistic approach to dealing with antisocial behaviour. I am carefully considering Baroness Newlove’s recommendations and what more we can do to support victims of antisocial behaviour.

I was particularly struck by what my hon. Friend said about how members of his community do not feel safe to report issues and about how they feel that the drug dealers have taken over their streets and are in control. That worries me a great deal, and it worries me especially that people do not feel safe to report, because reporting on issues is just so important.

I wish to say something about drugs, because my hon. Friend talked a lot about the problems around drugs. Again, tackling those problems is not something policing can do on its own. I recognise that tackling illegal drugs must be a key part of delivering the Government’s mission to make our streets safer. We know from the Crime Survey for England and Wales that people using or dealing drugs is in the top three antisocial behaviour issues that residents most commonly think is a problem in their area. I was particularly concerned to hear about what was happening on the Avenue Road estate.

It is clear that half of all crimes, such as shoplifting and burglary, are driven by drugs, which is why the Government are determined to crack down on antisocial behaviour and drug misuse. The police have a critical role to play in this area. Where individuals are found in possession of drugs, they must face appropriate sanctions. We are working with the police and the National Police Chiefs’ Council to support voluntary referrals into treatment. We firmly believe that diverting those who use illegal drugs into interventions such as drug treatment services is key to reducing drug misuse, drug-related crime and reoffending. We support the use of drug testing on arrest and out-of-court resolutions to ensure that individuals who commit drug and related offences are given the opportunity to change their behaviour and to be diverted into meaningful and appropriate interventions.

I was pleased to hear from my hon. Friend about Project ADDER, which we know expanded to Waltham Forest in March this year. He also told us that the police in Leyton are using powers to tackle drug misuse and related offending. Through Project ADDER, police in Waltham Forest are using proactive operations to close county lines and disrupt organised criminal gangs. I also noted what my hon. Friend said about operations that seem to work in one area, but when resources are moved on, people resume the activities in which they were previously engaged, so I am very well aware that we need to address that.

I also note that Leyton is piloting community protection notices, which will include, in appropriate cases, a new mandatory positive requirement for individuals to attend drugs awareness programmes to tackle drug-related antisocial behaviour. That means that the police and local authorities can require that attendance to change behaviour, and if the individual does not attend, that can result in an arrest.

Beyond enforcement, we know that treatment works to reduce reoffending. Giving offenders greater access to treatment services helps to break the underlying causes of their reoffending and increases public safety. We are committed to ensuring that anyone with a drug problem can access the help and support that they need, and we recognise the need for evidenced-based, high-quality treatment. Prevention of drug and alcohol-related harm is vital to saving lives and making our streets safer.

I am delighted that the public health Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Gorton and Denton (Andrew Gwynne), is on the Treasury Bench this evening, because I know that he is particularly interested in this whole area of drug and alcohol treatment. The Department of Health and Social Care is continuing to invest in improvements to local treatment services, particularly for children and young people, as well as adults with drug or alcohol problems, to ensure that those in need can access high-quality help and support. In addition to the public health grant, the DHSC has allocated local authorities a further £267 million in 2024-25 to improve the quality and capacity of drug and alcohol treatment and recovery, alongside £105 million that has been made available by various Government Departments to improve treatment pathways and recovery, and such things as housing and employment outcomes, which need to be part of the solution if we are to deal with people with drug and alcohol addictions.

I will conclude by repeating how grateful I am to my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead for bringing this debate to the House. Antisocial behaviour is a key issue for this Government, and we have a very ambitious programme to make our streets safer, restore neighbourhood policing—the bedrock of policing in this country—and reduce the misery that antisocial behaviour causes for victims and communities.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Clapham and Brixton Hill) (Lab)]

9. If she will commission an independent review into the adequacy of legislation on the policing of protests.

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

Like my hon. Friend, the Government value the role of peaceful protest as part of our proud democratic tradition. The Government regularly review the adequacy of existing legislation.

[Bell Ribeiro-Addy]

The right to protest, and the courage of people taking to the streets to demand change, have given us many of our cherished social advancements—from the suffragettes demanding votes for women to the Race Relations Act 1965—but the sheer number of powers to restrict protest is resulting in peaceful protesters being arrested and sentenced to lengthy periods in prison. The previous Government pushed through a range of such laws despite opposition from senior policing figures and from Members across all parties. When will a comprehensive review of the state of protest take place, with a view to repealing powers that unnecessarily restrict the right to peaceful protest?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that important issue. As she knows, there will be post-legislative scrutiny of the legislation passed by the previous Government. As the previous Government agreed, it will be considered in due course.

[Mr Richard Holden (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Recent footage of Metropolitan police officers saying that the description of Hezbollah as a terror group was a matter of “opinion” is alarming. The officers in question were deployed to a march in central London where support for Hezbollah was openly displayed, yet many offenders were only identified by photos on social media after the event. Will the Minister ensure that all officers are fully briefed on the proscribed status of Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorist organisations, so that offenders are arrested on the spot, and not allowed to spew antisemitic hate on our streets?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

We are all clear that Hezbollah are a proscribed organisation. The police take great care when they police protests; there is a great deal of briefing for officers beforehand. However, the way that those protests are policed is operationally independent. I have been to see and talk to officers who are on the frontline at those protests, and I know that it is a difficult job. We should all say a big “thank you” for the work that they do. There have been many protests over the last 12 months that the police have dealt with, and many officers have had rest days cancelled to ensure adequate policing on our streets.

[Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)]

Southwark police officers recently told Bermondsey safety action group that they struggled to prevent or solve crime due to extraction duties, when they have to police repeat protests elsewhere in London. Does the Minister believe that the Met needs new powers to refuse permission for some repetitive protests in the capital, or should it use existing powers better to resolve and reduce extraction duties and increase safety in my community?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Police numbers are an issue, which is why this Government are clear about recruiting more neighbourhood police officers to increase that presence on our streets. I recognise that what my hon. Friend has said about extraction is an issue for the Metropolitan police in particular when dealing with protests. Clearly, we want all criminals to be dealt with by the police, and we need sufficient numbers of police officers to do that.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

Although we respect and would protect the right to peaceful protest, antisemitic and Islamophobic offences have been reported at many recent protests. Those have contributed to an astonishing and shocking 25% increase in religiously aggravated hate crimes in this country, as was revealed last week. The Community Security Trust reports an almost 500% rise in antisemitic incidents, and Tell MAMA has recorded the highest ever number of anti-Muslim incidents. Can the Minister reassure us on what the Government will do to help the police continue to keep communities safe, and police protests in a way that does that?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The figures that the hon. Lady sets out are shocking. This Government are clear that there is no place in our society for antisemitism or Islamophobia. There are already meetings about how we can tackle that rise. It is shocking and it will not be tolerated. In some recent protests, the police have clearly had a difficult job to do, but I commend their work to tackle antisemitism and Islamophobia. We know that the police take their responsibilities seriously and that they do so without fear or favour.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

10. If she will increase funding for policing in the London borough of Havering.

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

The Government are of course committed to ensuring that the police have the resources that they need to tackle crime effectively. As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, funding beyond this year, including for the Metropolitan Police Service, will be confirmed following the upcoming multi-year spending review.

[Andrew Rosindell]

Given the increasing pressures on the police service, does the Minister accept that officer morale, retention, recruitment and ability to solve crimes are severely compromised, with police officers overworked, underpaid and subjected to unprecedented rises in bureaucratic processes—often dealing with things that police do not traditionally deal with, such as mental health care and social work? [ Interruption. ] Will the Minister explain how the Government plan to address those critical issues, especially in terms of improving officer retention, recruitment, crime-solving capacity and the overwhelming levels of bureaucracy, so that constituents in Romford can feel safe in their own town again? [ Interruption. ]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Mr Rosindell, you should know better. I did not cough twice for my own benefit—it was meant to be for yours.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Member of this House. He has supported 14 years of Conservative government that have left us coming into government with a criminal justice system, including policing, that is in grave difficulty. I take the point that he raises, but he needs to recognise the role that he and his party have played in getting us to this point. Our aim now is to recruit more police officers, as the Home Secretary has said, and to increase neighbourhood policing as the bedrock of policing in this country.

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

We all want to see more funding for our police in Havering and Hackney and across London, but a reduction in crime would also help them. What conversations are Ministers having with mobile phone manufacturers to try to drive down phone snatches by people on bikes and reduce such street crime, which is really growing in London?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point. Those conversations are ongoing; later this month, conversations will take place on what more can be done to ensure that the manufacturers take their responsibility seriously and do everything they can to stop the trade in parts, which is a particular issue with mobile phones.

[Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab)]

12. If she will make an assessment of the potential merits of removing Georgia from her Department’s list of safe countries for removals, in the context of the recent passage of legislation on LGBT rights in that country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alan Strickland (Newton Aycliffe and Spennymoor) (Lab)]

T3.   In 14 years of Tory government, police numbers were decimated across our country, including in my constituency. Durham constabulary lost 408 officers, a third of its strength. What steps will the Government take to put police officers back on our streets?

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

As has been said a number of times this afternoon, the neighbourhood policing guarantee means 13,000 police officers, PCSOs and specials back on our streets to keep us all safe, after the reduction in police officer numbers of, I think, over 20,000 by the Conservative party.

[Luke Taylor (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

T5. The recent London stalking review published by the London victims’ commissioner reveals some pretty alarming statistics: in our capital, 45% of stalking victims felt compelled to withdraw from the justice system and 41% said that no action was taken on their complaint by police. What specific measures are being taken to better support victims of stalking? Are there plans to offer specific training to officers to deal with these cases?

[Jacob Collier (Burton and Uttoxeter) (Lab)]

T4. After 14 years of Conservative government, we hardly see police officers on the beat across my constituency. Night policing cover in Uttoxeter and rural areas is virtually non-existent. What steps will the Minister take to put more officers on the beat, and what is the timeline for that?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Again, there is the neighbourhood policing guarantee and, importantly for my hon. Friend, there will be a named police officer in the community so people know who to go to when they need assistance. That work is happening now and we are keen to see the first officers in place in the next few months.

[Blake Stephenson (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

T6. In Rural Crime Action Week, does the Secretary of State agree that in Bedfordshire, where we have major urban areas such as Bedford and Luton bordered by rural communities, it is important that the funding formula be reviewed so that equal attention can be paid to tackling crime in our rural villages and towns?

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

T8. I agree with the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Blake Stephenson). Despite the previous Government’s promises to reform funding settlements, as usual they failed to deliver. Does the Secretary of State agree that we must review the current situation, reform the police funding formula and finally deliver fairer funding for local people?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

As part of the spending review, we want to consider police funding in the round, including how police funding is allocated to forces. The sector, including the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners and the National Police Chiefs’ Council, is engaged in the process.

[Mr Richard Holden (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

T7. The Home Secretary is benefiting from some of the measures on legal routes for migration brought in by my right hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr Cleverly) when he was in government, which have caused the number of people able to come to the UK to halve. What further measures has she taken to ensure that legal migration is cut further?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Paul Foster (South Ribble) (Lab)]

T10. Part 3 of the Data Protection Act 2018 imposes unnecessary obligations on the police, and requires them to redact personal data for information transferred to the Crown Prosecution Service. Those obligations delay and obstruct the swift progress of the criminal justice system. The Police Federation of England and Wales has proposed a new clause that, if introduced, would facilitate the free flow of personal data between the police and the CPS. Will Ministers urgently look at reforming that unnecessary red tape to allow more police time on the streets in my constituency of South Ribble?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

That is an important point, and we are actively exploring all ways that we can improve guidance around redaction, streamline current processes, make better use of technology, and ultimately reduce unnecessary burdens on the police and prosecutors, so that they can get on with their primary task of keeping the public safe and putting away criminals.

[Nick Timothy (West Suffolk) (Con)]

The Home Secretary told the House that by ending the retrospective element of the duty to remove she was saving £7 billion in 10 years. The impact assessment assumes that all those subject to the duty would have remained in Britain at a cost to the Home Office, but in his letter to me her permanent secretary said that the sum included the cost of sending the same migrants to Rwanda. I wrote to the Home Secretary about that on 1 September and I have raised it with the Minister for Immigration in Westminster Hall, but I have not had an answer. Can she explain that double counting, and if she cannot, will she apologise for using that statistic in the House of Commons?

--- Later in debate ---

[Ben Maguire (North Cornwall) (LD)]

Given that the turnout for the Devon and Cornwall police and crime commissioner election in May was just 18%, will the Minister look to scrap that role and instead invest that money in proper community policing in rural constituencies such as mine of North Cornwall?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The Government have no plans to scrap the role of police and crime commissioner. We think it is a valuable role that can enable the missions that this Government have set out to be enacted locally, including the safer streets mission. We need to work with the PCCs to make sure that mission happens in the different force areas around the country. PCCs also have a role to play with their other partners, local authorities and the voluntary sector.

[Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

Noisy off-road bikes speed around neighbourhoods such as Chapeltown in my constituency, deliberately disturbing and intimidating residents. Will the Home Secretary commit to properly tackling off-road bikes by giving the police the right powers to crack down on this issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Tomlinson (Chipping Barnet) (Lab)]

I thank you, Mr Speaker, for making time for Back Benchers in the questions today. I rise to raise the issue of car theft in my constituency. Many hundreds of residents have had their cars stolen, and the police do not have the capacity to follow up. Next year, I am hosting a car theft summit in Chipping Barnet, and I invite the Minister to attend with me.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I would be delighted to.

[Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)]

After a bungled fraud investigation by Renault Crédit International, it, together with Renault-Nissan UK Ltd moved to seize the assets of a business in my constituency, Mackie Motors Brechin Ltd. This cost my constituent half a million pounds and 25% of his order book value. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss the finer points of this clearly very dubious act by a UK bank?

Draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2024 General Committees

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024.

It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford, especially as this is the first time that I have had the pleasure of addressing this Committee after a 14-year break. I am grateful to the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, known as the ACMD, for its advice which has informed this draft order.

The draft order was laid before Parliament on 2 September. The purpose of the order is to amend schedule 2 to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, the MDA, to control six substances and introduce a generic definition for nitazenes as class A drugs, and to control sixteen substances as class C drugs. The draft order also seeks to add clarity to the control of an existing class B drug, by adding an additional common name and its International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry name to its entry.

Following the 66th session of the United Nations Commission on Narcotic Drugs, the synthetic opioid 2-methyl-AP-237 was added to schedule 1 of the single convention on narcotic drugs of 1961, to which the UK is a signatory. New synthetic opioids are a substantial current public health threat. They have similar effects to well-known opioids such as morphine and heroin, although some can be more potent. With a high potential for addiction and dependence, lower doses of these substances can lead to the same effects as other opioids. They have an increased risk of accidental overdose, which can lead to life-threatening outcomes.

In its report of 27 March 2024, the ACMD considered the harms of 2-methyl-AP-237 but also provided advice on closely related acyl piperazine opioids. The ACMD noted the likelihood of further increases in their prevalence, as well as the potential health and social harms associated with specific acyl piperazine opioids.

The draft order follows the recommendations from the ACMD and therefore seeks to control four named acyl piperazine opioids and two chemically bridged acyl piperazine derivatives, which includes 2-methyl-AP-237, as class A drugs under the MDA.

Under the MDA, there are a number of nitazenes, another type of synthetic opioid, that are already controlled as class A drugs. However, more needs to be done to reduce the opportunity for criminals to circumvent existing controls by making minor alterations to the chemical structure of existing named nitazenes under control. That is why the draft order implements the ACMD proposal to introduce a generic definition of nitazenes. The intention is to future-proof the legislation by covering known and predicted variants likely to present a significant risk to health. The ACMD has published four updates to address new structurally-related compounds under the definition. As such, the draft order introduces a generic definition for nitazenes as a class A drug under the MDA.

Benzodiazepines are sedatives known for use in various treatments including anxiety, insomnia and epilepsy. In recent years, we have seen an increase in the non-medical use of novel benzodiazepines. They and related compounds have been associated with significant health harms. Since the ACMD’s last report in 2020, further benzodiazepines and related compounds have been identified that are not controlled under the MDA. As such, the ACMD published new recommendations in March 2024. The ACMD recommended 15 compounds for control, none of which are licensed as medicines in the UK. As such, in line with the ACMD advice, the draft order seeks to control 15 benzodiazepines and related compounds as class C drugs under the MDA.

Xylazine is a non-opioid tranquilizer that has been approved for use in veterinary medicine. However, we have seen an increase, both internationally and in the UK, in its illicit use. Xylazine is being used to adulterate illicitly manufactured opioids such as fentanyl to produce a mixture which is known as “tranq” in the USA. Xylazine can dangerously lower an individual’s level of consciousness, especially if combined with other sedatives. So, the draft order seeks to control xylazine as a class C drug under the MDA, as recommended by the ACMD.

The draft order also amends the entry for methoxyphenidine, to add an additional common name and its full international standardised name. This does not affect the existing control of the substance as a class B drug, but adds clarity on exactly which drug is controlled, given that there are multiple common names.

If made, this order will mean that these substances will be subject to control under the MDA. Furthermore, enforcement agencies, such as the police, will have the appropriate powers to further restrict the supply and use of these substances.

While nearly all these substances are likely to be captured by the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016, the control of these substances under the MDA will enable higher penalties for their supply, as well as introducing a possession offence with wider reach. Those who supply or produce a class A drug could face up to life imprisonment, an unlimited fine, or both. For a class C, this could be up to 14 years’ imprisonment, an unlimited fine or both. Those found in unlawful possession face up to seven years in prison for a class A and up to two for a class C, with an unlimited fine, or both.

In addition to this order, a further statutory instrument will be introduced, via the negative resolution procedure. This is to make various amendments to the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001, known as the MDR and, if necessary, the Misuse of Drugs (Designation) Order 2015, to schedule and designate the newly controlled drugs, as appropriate. This follows the ACMD advice and will ensure that they will only be available for research or other special purposes under a Home Office licence.

As xylazine has legitimate use as a veterinary medicine, it will be placed in schedule 4, part 1 of the MDR to enable its continued legitimate use.

It is the Government’s intention that these amendments will come into force on the same date as this affirmative order, in early 2025.

The ACMD has provided helpful independent, detailed advice on the harms associated with these substances. We have a responsibility to protect the public against dangerous substances and will continue to act as swiftly as we can to ensure appropriate controls are in place.

I hope Members will approve this draft order and support the Government’s position to ensure that all 22 substances, as well as those caught by the generic definition for nitazenes, be subject to strict controls. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am grateful for the shadow Minister’s comments, particularly on the situation in Afghanistan; we need to remain very mindful of that. I will now respond to his questions.

It is absolutely right that we remain vigilant, and I am confident that the ACMD has the resources to do so. It has the power to access whatever information it needs about new variants coming into circulation. That is really important. In today’s proceedings we are very much taking a belt-and-braces approach, to make sure that we are ahead of the game wherever possible. I am confident that the ACMD will allow us to do that; we may well be back here in future if it provides further advice.

On xylazine, I take the point that we should keep an eye on how the legislation is working. As I said, it is a medicine that is used in veterinary science, and we need to make sure that it is still being used in the same way and that there are no problems with that. We also need to be mindful whether it is also being used in different ways. So, we absolutely remain vigilant. This is an area that I am particularly interested in and I will continue to look at these things as often as I can.

The hon. Gentleman referred to how the order could have issues around law enforcement and prisons. It is worth referring to the impact assessment and economic note that have been produced. Clearly, the law enforcement response is expected to be reasonably managed within existing resources; that is set out in the impact assessment. That is due to the relatively low levels of detection of these substances compared with other controlled substances, and the likelihood that such drugs are often possessed and trafficked with other substances already controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The police and other law enforcement agencies are operationally independent, as the shadow Minister knows, but we do expect them to prioritise resources in tackling crime, including drug-related crime, with a focus on those offences that cause the most harm.

I think we all agree that these are dangerous substances with potential to cause significant harm to individuals and society. It is right that all the substances that we have discussed today are put under strict controls under the 1971 Act. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Spice-spiked Vapes

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing, Fire and Crime Prevention (Dame Diana Johnson)]

I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) on securing this important debate. I have listened carefully to her contribution, as well as those of the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) and of my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Dr Cooper), and I very much share the concerns that have been expressed about this matter. As Minister for Policing, I am really keen to gain as full an understanding as possible of the threats to public safety, including ones such as this, so while the subject matter of this debate is deeply troubling, I am grateful that it has been brought before the House this evening for consideration. I am also appreciative of the research undertaken by Professor Pudney, which has helped to identify this issue. Home Office and health officials have met him to discuss his findings, and we continue to consider any emerging evidence on the harms of illicit drugs.

I will start by making some general comments about vapes. First, vapes containing Spice are illegal, and no one should be buying or using those products—I will say a little bit more about that later. The Government welcome adult smokers switching to vaping as part of their efforts to give up smoking, but discourage the use of vaping by children and non-smokers. As the chief medical officer, Professor Sir Chris Whitty, has said,

“If you smoke, vaping is much safer; if you don’t smoke, don’t vape; marketing vapes to children is utterly unacceptable.”

The law currently protects children through restricting sales of nicotine-inhaling vapes to over-18s only, limiting nicotine content, labelling requirements and advertising restrictions. The Department of Health and Social Care is providing £3 million in funding over two years specifically to enhance the work led by National Trading Standards to tackle underage and illicit vape sales. However, non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products such as nicotine pouches have much lower levels of regulation, and current levels of youth vaping and the targeting of products at children mean that further restrictions are needed.

That is why, as the hon. Member for Bath referred to, the Government will be introducing the tobacco and vapes Bill to address the high rates of youth vaping, alongside measures to make the UK smokefree. That Bill includes landmark policies to protect our children from the harms of vaping and the risk of nicotine addiction. Among other things, the Bill will stop vapes and nicotine products from being deliberately branded for, and advertised to, children; introduce a minimum age of sale of 18 for non-nicotine vapes and nicotine products to ensure they cannot be sold to children; ban the free distribution of vaping and nicotine products; and provide the Government with regulation-making powers to restrict flavours, point-of-sale displays and packaging for all vaping and nicotine products.

The measures in the Bill are intended to bring about definitive and positive change to stop future generations from becoming hooked on nicotine while ensuring that vapes can remain a means by which adult smokers can quit. However, I note the proposals for amending that Bill that the hon. Member for Bath has put forward. I am very happy to take those proposals away and discuss them with officials, as well as share them with the public health Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Gorton and Denton (Andrew Gwynne), because this is his Bill—he will be bringing it forward. I hope the hon. Lady will allow me to give her my assurance that all the issues she has raised will be considered.

[Tessa Munt (Wells and Mendip Hills) (LD)]

Can the Minister confirm that the new Bill will take the age limit at which people can use cigarettes up gradually, as was proposed previously, and whether vaping will be caught in the same path? The Minister has referred to children, but children eventually become young adults and then adults themselves, and we need to prevent vaping from being an alternative. It just needs to be stopped.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Again, I emphasise that the Bill is not within the Home Office’s purview; it is a DHSC measure. I will ask the Minister for Public Health to respond to the hon. Member for Wells and Mendip Hills (Tessa Munt) because I am not yet sighted on the whole Bill.

As the hon. Member for Bath said, the addition of Spice to some vapes is particularly concerning. Spice is a street name for synthetic cannabinoid receptor agonists, or SCRAs. Other brand names are also associated with SCRAs, such as Black Mamba. However, despite the suggestion of a link in the term “synthetic cannabinoid”, there is no relationship between SCRAs and the cannabis plant.

Let me be clear: vapes containing SCRAs are illegal. Most SCRAs, including Spice, are controlled as class B drugs via a generic definition under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The import, production or supply of a class B drug carries a maximum sentence of up to 14 years’ imprisonment, an unlimited fine or both. Although legislation is in place, with punitive sanctions to tackle offences, including the supply of SCRAs, there is something particularly concerning about the attempt by some criminals to peddle vapes containing SCRAs that are designed to appeal to children. I want to talk about what we can do to deal with that. The hon. Member made some suggestions.

I am sure that we agree that early drug use significantly increases exposure to health and social harms, including substance use disorder or dependency later in life. One of the most effective approaches to preventing drug misuse and risky behaviour is through empowering and building resilience in children and young people.

Health education is a compulsory subject in schools and is taught as part of the relationships, sex and health education curriculum. Health education includes content on drugs, alcohol and tobacco. As with other aspects of the curriculum, schools have flexibility about how they deliver these subjects, so that they can develop an integrated approach that is sensitive to the needs and background of their pupils. For example, in areas where there are significant problems with drugs or vapes, a school can choose to dedicate more time to this topic.

The hon. Member may know that the relationships, sex and health education curriculum is currently being reviewed, and, as part of that, the Department for Education will explore whether any more content on this subject is required. The Education Secretary has said that children’s wellbeing must be at the heart of the RSHE guidance and has committed to looking carefully at the public consultation responses and considering the relevant evidence before setting out next steps to take the guidance forward.

In respect of vapes specifically, the Department for Education and the Department of Health and Social Care have taken a number of steps to increase the training resources and support available for teachers and schools. They have updated the curriculum to include the health risks of vaping and published new online content on the potential risks of vaping for young people. I noted carefully what the hon. Member said about parents as well as young people needing to be educated, and also about politicians needing to have that education.

[Wera Hobhouse]

I was a secondary school teacher before I came to this House, and I know how difficult it is to teach properly in lessons that are often after the normal school time. Of course, this is one of the things we can do, but it clearly needs a targeted campaign. Does the Minister not agree that this problem is so alarming that we need to look at a dedicated campaign, rather than leaving it to lessons that I know reach some, but not many, young people?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

The hon. Member obviously has a great deal of experience in education, and of what works with young people when teaching these really important but difficult subjects. Given the number of issues she has raised and approaches she would like adopted, I am very happy, as I said at the outset, to take that back and to look at the advice that officials will give me and the public health Minister.

I agree with the hon. Lady about parents as well as politicians needing to be educated on this matter. Information about the dangers of SCRAs is readily available on Frank, which is the Government-funded national drug and alcohol advisory service. It explains that SCRAs can be more potent than cannabis and that the effects may last for life. It also says that there may be unknown effects, because, as is important to note, we are at the early stages.

I again thank the hon. Member for raising this important and concerning matter. I hope I have made it clear not only that punitive measures are available to tackle those who illegally supply these dangerous drugs, but that the Government are alive to the dangers of children vaping more widely, as well as in these particular instances. Through measures planned to be introduced in the tobacco and vapes Bill, we aim to reduce the availability of vapes to children. As I have promised, I will certainly feed back to the public health Minister the issues she has raised about what should be in that Bill.

Question put and agreed to.